Why the fuck did Wizards decide to make this cancerous, fetish-tier

>>47572219
Because it appeals to casuals.

Because they were too lazy to make a not evil Lizard race, so we got Dragonborn.
>Same goes for tieflings.
Why though. It's literally the same thing as being a sorcerer, but with fiends, but your physiology changes.

What's your problem with it, anon? Is it just that its new? Because lizardmen have been a thing since for-fucking-ever.

Because your buttpain sustains them

Because people want to play Dragons. Also, they're the only race to my knowledge that gets bonuses to str and cha rather than str and con or dex and cha.

>>47572283
>It's literally the same thing as being a sorcerer
Sorcerer is a shit class too.

>>47572283
Well.. Tieflings are okay I guess...

>>47572317
Except they're not lizardmen. I wouldn't have a problem with lizardmen but dragonborn just don't make sense at all.

How do you explain their sudden existence?

I mean why the fuck is there suddenly a race of humanoid dragon creatures in D&D? There's no way these freaks would be accepted into civilised society. Half-orcs have a hard enough time as it is.

I can see how the concept might work in a very specific campaign setting (the same way that warforged work in Eberron) but why are they now a core race all of a sudden?

>>47572367
I've seen people explain them by copying the teifling backstory and raplacing all instances of "feind" with "dragon".

In civilized society, people would probably judge them based on their scale colour. They would be surprised if a red dragonborn was in anyway good, or if a gold dragon born was in anyway evil.

>>47572219
Because everybody likes dragons, but true dragons aren't really suited for PC use, so instead you get to play as an anthropomorphic dragon man.

Same reason why DnD has dragons of every possible color and alignment, really.

>>47572219
>Where did they even come from?

>He's never heard of the Path of the Dragon

It's okay, anon. If you work hard enough and believe with all of your heart, someday you too will become a dragon.

Because autists want to play their Argonian OC donutsteels

and children want to be Extreme Dinosaurs.

>>47572367
Because it's a new edition, and new editions add things that are retconned back through time in perpetuity. How did the Ancients and Paladins of them become a thing in 5E? How did Warlocks become a thing in the middle of 3E? How did Sorcerers and 9th level Cleric spells become a thing in 3E? How did Bards who didn't spend years as thieves, fighters, and druids become a thing in 2E? How did nonhumans with character classes become a thing in 1E?

>>47572450
There is nothing wrong with wanting to play as Extreme dinosaurs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqgJ6wzSW8k

>>47572453
Those things are fairly easy to explain and integrate into existing campaigns.

Dragonborn imply that a new race with its own culture and civisation just suddenly appeared out of nowhere. It's fucking nonsense.

They could have just used lizardmen if they were going for a monstrous player race. Every setting has lizardmen.

>>47572219

It actually took quite a while until they gave in to requests from players. Remember the Dragon Disciple? It was the attempt to enable dragon-ish characters without going overboard.
Sadly, enough players still wished for more, so they finally gave in and delivered. In the end, they just cater to people who buy their products, nothing wrong with that per se.

Excluding dragonborn from your game is, on the other hand, a totally reasonable countermeasurement.

>>47572219
-They are/were in faerun since 4e (not sure after the sundering)
- Explaining their existence isn't really that hard, I mean how do you explain elves, dwarves, halflings, lizardmen or basically anything else.
- If you don't want to include them don't, that's your call as a DM.

>>47572496
Take it back to Deviantart, manchild.

I'm playing D&D, not Freeform RP for Autism Awareness.

>>47572523
I think the problem is that you have Aspergers. Because you can't let the "they just suddenly appeared out of nowhere" explanation go, when it's so clearly not a thing. So I guess they made them a core race because they don't have Aspergers.

>>47572544
>how do you explain elves, dwarves, halflings, lizardmen or basically anything else

As I said, those races have histories and lore dating back centuries.

Dragonborn are a meme race that only exist because of 12 year olds who think dragons are cool.

>>47572565
Your bitter, faggoty grognard tears are delicious.

>>47572523
You do realise that they came up with reasons for why dragonborn showed up in existing setting like Forgotten Realms?

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dragonborn
>Dragonborn (also known as Vayemniri[2], or "The Ash-Marked Ones" in Draconic) are a race of draconic creatures native to Abeir, Toril's long sundered twin. During the Spellplague the dragonborn nation of Tymanchebar was placed where Unther had once been, creating the nation of Tymanther, where most dragonborn of Faerûn dwell to this day. Dragonborn have a strong hatred of dragons, who enslaved them on Abeir.[3]


And, though this may shock you, some people actually made settings of their own, who explain the existence of one system for the same reason every other race exists- because.

>>47572219
>Does Hasbro own a dragon dildo company or something?
Don't know if they actually own a dragon dildo company, but I wouldn't be surprised if they have money in a company that makes them.

>>47572597
Wow that's even lazier than I thought.

They must have been high on crack when they wrote that.

How were dragonborn created? Did a dragon rape a human? Or vice versa like in neckbeard fantasies?

>>47572219
The same reason your mom gives you tendies still. She knows you won't stop asking so might as well make them to silence your bitching.

>>47572569
>D&D races
>dating back centuries
At best they date back to 1954.

>>47572651
My mom brings me tendies because she loves me you cuck!

>>47572219

Because in a game called Dungeons & Dragons, it took decades for you to actually play a dragon.

6th edition will let you play as dungeons, hopefully.

>>47572717
I meant in terms of established lore within settings like Greyhawk, Eberron, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, etc...

If you read the history of the forgotten realms, not one mention is made of "dragonborn" yet now all of a sudden they're a core race that exist in every major settlment across Faerun?

It's complete bullshit.

>>47572739

Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Eberron, and Dark Sun all have lizard-men of some variety, which may as well be dragonborn for all the difference it makes.

If you're going to whine about how dragonborn aren't lizard-men and vice-versa, you're arguing over semantics in a game of fantasy elf murder-hobos and that's really goddamn silly.

>>47572219
Don't ban tieflings or dragonborn from your campaign. Instead, leave them as bait, and ban players who try to play them.

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>>47572739
Shouldn't you be on >>/co/ sperging about how Captain America is now Hitler? You're showing the same level of intelligence as those people.

They updated some settings to include dragonborn. Greyhawk is not one of them, and I don't think Dragonlance got official dragonborn stuff, just an article in Dragon Magazine. The other setting have reasons why dragonborn are now there. If you don't like those reasons, you can play using the old books. Of course, you neither know nor care about those reasons, because you can't be bothered to read.

You won't read, you won't play using the old books, you don't play at all, you prefer making bait threads. Have fun wasting your life, faggot.

>>47572739
Dragonborn also have established lore within the settings dating back centuries. It's just that these centuries of lore only started existing when 4E was published instead of when 1E was published. But in setting, they always existed.

Autists shouldn't be allowed to play roleplaying games, OP. Please purge yourself.

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>>47572569
>dating back centuries

You forgot your ellipses, faggotor.

>>47572739
>Nothing from my precious childhood should be changed in any way whatsoever
>Get your grubby hands out of muh setting REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
You're adorable.

>>47572739
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/dray.php

>>47572569

>because of 12 year olds who think dragons are cool
Who is the potential customer!

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Dragonborns used to be turbo-retarded but now they are okay, especially as depicted in 5e.
Tieflings remain extra-edgy tho.

>>47573389
I'm curious, I didn't think there was really anything different about 5e dragonborn, so what changed your mind about them?

>>47573364

Really, though? How many 12 year old kids do you think buy D&D over a video game? How much does WotC invest in marketing towards getting kids into D&D?

I see far more of the older crowd buying into it. Especially in the case of 5e, an entire line of which panders hard to the aging crowd of grognards.

>>47572219
When I started a campaign I basically forbid dragonborn outside of crazy circumstances involving weird magicks and such

Dragonborn are pretty dumb

>>47573427
I'll be honest, 80% of my disdain (I didn't used to HATE them) was because of their depictions in either art or short stories. 4e art and style of play didn't help, I used to view them as "your regular player, but with edgy appearance and natural armor!".

Now it is more mature. The PHB dragonborn looks more like a a shaman from another civilization, which would be expected from such a different species. They also look less draconic and more reptilian. To me it's like the art style went from JJBA Phantom Blood to a realistic one.

>>47573478
Most of the 5e dragonborn art is reused from 4e.

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>>47572803
>>47572854
>>47572860
>>47572976
>defending dragonborn

Fuck off you retarded cucks.

Retards like you are ruining the game.

>b-bb-bbut they're just lizardmen

No they aren't you fucking retards. They're fetishbait for autists. That's it. They have no place in D&D and anyone who plays a dragonborn or defends this shitty nonsensical design needs to be fucking GASSED.

Humanoid dragons? Really? What's next? Fucking ponies?

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I just want to play a character who can spit lightning. Is that too much to ask?

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>>47573685

Epic trolling m8.

>>47573727
Play a fucking sorcerer then.

>>47573685
You could say that about any non-human race. Dwarves appeal to MRAs that still think women have cooties, elves appeal to faggots of every possible flavor of degeneracy (which probably explains why there's so many subraces despite them allegedly being a "dying race" in many settings), halflings and gnomes appeal to lolsorandomsmokeweederryday inbreds, goblins appeal to shortstack-sucking degenerates, etc.

Honestly, playing as anything aside from a human, energy being, or sexless automaton is the only way to avoid the AIDS.

>>47573727
Yes it is.

This is D&D not FurryQuest.

Kindly leave and take your degenerate fetishes with you.

>>47573750
I'm honestly considering just making humans the only playable race in my next campaign.

Creating fantasy cultures is hard enough without having to create dozens of nonhuman cultures on top of the already diverse human population.

That said, elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, and orcs are mainstays of D&D and fantasy in general.

Dragoncucks and Tieflings are just furrybait.

>>47572219
>Why the fuck did Wizards decide to make this cancerous, fetish-tier meme race one of the core races in D&D.

Because the game is called Dungeons and DRAGONS and every edition has had a dozen+ races, classes, prestige classes, and templates that allowed you to become a dragon person with various levels of shittyness and balance.

4e just said, "Fucck it. Here's a dragon person option" right off the bat.

And it's way less cancerous/fetishy than the 3e Dragonborn, where you became one by being a dragon fanboy who is really a dragon iin spirit and crawling into an egg in order to be reborn so your exterior matches your interior identity.

>>How am I supposed to even explain their existence in Faerun or any setting that existed before 4e?

Just use the stats for Dragonborn to stand in for any dragon people (and Faerun has lots of dragon people races), but in Faerun, they're called "ABC" and come from "XYZ".

The same way you do for all the other races that get crammed into th setting from PHBs and MMs.

>>Fuck that. I don't care if they're in the PHB, you're not playing a fucking dragonborn in my game.

Then don't. I ran plenty of 4e games that featured only Humans, Goliaths, Shifters, Genasi, and Tieflings as playable characters.

>>47573822
>Goliaths, Shifters, Genasi, and Tieflings
It's not healthy to be in denial about AIDS.

>>47573843

They were just half-giants, beastmen, half-elementals, and half-fiends. They were largely considered degenerates, though.

>>47573822
>every edition has had a dozen+ races, classes, prestige classes, and templates that allowed you to become a dragon person with various levels of shittyness and balance.
>every edition

>>47573878
>B-but it's only half-AIDS!

Don't you people fucking tell me that you don't think the occasional half dragon isn't the coolest shit.

>>47573928

While 1e and 2e didn't have prestige classes and templates, they had their ways of getting dragon people in there with races and classes and kits and whatever other options were available.

Dragonfolk can be found in all editions of D&D- which is already a schizo "toss anything in" bunch of rules anyway.

>>47573928

The supplement treadmill has been around since the creation of D&D. This isn't something 3e invented--hell, 2e had over 600 published books over the course of its lifetime, and you can damn well bet there's a half-dozen ways to play a dragon-man in that edition alone.

>>47573969

Grogs and purists don't, because they lack imagination and a sense of fun.

>>47573980
However, they're not in OD&D or the Basic line. That's a whole five editions.

>>47572219
So answer me this: why did you ban my human fighter, even when you specifically said that's what you wanted?

>>47572219
>Where did they even come from? How am I supposed to even explain their existence in Faerun or any setting that existed before 4e?
Half-dragons are a thing, you know.

>>47573994
Yeah, lack of imagination alright
>I can't figure out what to do with scaley dragon race
I dunno, stop being a fucking retard?

>>47573997
>implying anybody here actually played that shit and didn't just start in 2e and act like they did.

>>47573997

OD&D had laser rifles and space ships, and I see plenty of people raging against anything "sci-fi" included in D&D. It's borne from a lack of understanding and a stringent mind-set on what is and isn't D&D and/or fantasy.

People will fight against anything they don't like being included in their fantasy elf games and claim it's ruining the whole thing. It's dumb and silly. If people want to play a dragon-man, go ahead. If they want to play a half-giant wielding a laser pistol, fuckin' let'em.

We're at the table to have fun, not try and figure out what is True D&D or whatever scented farts the OSR crowd is smelling today.

>>47573994
>>47573980
I've gone through my AD&D race database, and I've found:
Dracon (brontosaurus-taur thing with a draconic head)
22 different species of actual dragon
Sesk Draconians
9 different types of half-dragon
Pterrans (pteranodon-men)

That's all 2e. No 1e products on that list.

There might be some sort of other draconic race with a strange name that I can't ID off a list.

>>47574018

D&D--and in a more broad sense, fantasy RPGs in general--has a really hard time breaking out of the generic medieval-esque fantasy trope. Trying to get people out of their comfort zone and explore new ideas, races, and even games is like pulling teeth sometimes. Once they get an idea of how fantasy should be (or As Gygax Intended), a lot of players will stubbornly refuse to budge from it and will bemoan anything that isn't in the PHB they owned when they were 12.

This whole thread is basically a microcosm of that effect. Some people really really REALLY don't like dragonborn, despite long-standing examples of dragon-people being around in D&D for decades. They quite literally cannot imagine a dragon-man in their games of Dungeons and fucking Dragons.

>>47574136
>There might be some sort of other draconic race with a strange name that I can't ID off a list.

While I can't recall if there's ever been a published set of PC stats in 1e (I know that edition probably the least), I'm willing to bet that there's some sort of dragon-man NPC in one of the many published adventures during that time. 1e had some wild shit in it, after all.

>>47574147
And dragonborn make a hell of a lot more sense than tiny scaley migets that build caves.
I fell for the bait.

>>47573685
>I literally cannot add to this conversation

>>47572219
>Why the fuck did Wizards decide to make this cancerous, fetish-tier meme race one of the core races in D&D.
>Does Hasbro own a dragon dildo company or something?
Absolutely everyone has been making D&D clones since the very earliest days. Wizards clearly wants something to stand out more than just name recognition. "You can play a dragon in Dungeons & Dragons" was there idea of giving players something they didn't have elsewhere.

>Same goes for tieflings.
This was for the edgy tryhards.

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>>47574180

Yeah, like shit man, people are totally fine with kobolds but the second you want to play a man-sized dragon-person they will flip their shit.

>>47572219
>using published settings and not just making your own
why do you even play RPGs?

>>47572367
Tieflings are cancer
>lol imma demun but i might not be evil so don't judge me cis scum!

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>>47572730
this is my pc

>>47572219
>Fuck that. I don't care if they're in the PHB, you're not playing a fucking dragonborn in my game.
>Same goes for tieflings.

I don't blame you one bit.

Dragonborn were made for players who decided that elves weren't Mary Sue enough anymore.

Just like Tieflings were made for people who decided that Drow weren't edgy enough anymore.

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>>47574770

They should have just made Kobolds the only dragon-people race and left it at that.

I agree that what 4e did to the lore was stupid. People always get caught up in the mechanics when complaining about 4e, but what it did to the setting was bad and overall unnecessary.

>>47574770

Fuck yeah.

>>47574986

Which setting are you talking about? Because if its Faerun, that world has major changes every like 10 years.

>>47572219
That's a shame, in 4e both are really nice for optimization

I don't particularly care about the fluff of either, but a dragon sorcerer that isn't a dragonborn is going to suck, and every int/cha class pretty much requires being a tiefling just for the imperious majesty feat

>>47574673
Are you just retarded or do you not actually know what the fuck a tiefling is?

Because they sure as shit aren't demons. They like 1/3rd fiend at most, and most are born from human parents with no immediate fiendish ancestry. And I say fiend because they can be descended from asuras, divs, devils, daemons, demons, demodands, kytons, oni, qlippoths/obyrith, and rakshasas. And as people who are only a small amount of evil outsider, they only have a slightly higher inclination to evil than other humans.

So yes, the LG paladin tiefling is a perfectly fine character to play, a being whose ancestry is filled with evil and by their actions and inner struggle they seek to atone and redeem their bloodline.

>>47575013
>Have you ever noticed how some great cosmic change occurs about every 10 years? Sometimes 6?

>>47572219
2008 called; go fuck yourself

> how am I supposed to explain their existance outside of 4e-onward settings?
Tell your players up-front what settings do and do not exist in the world of the game/splat/module you're running and there should be no problems.

>>47572219
>How am I supposed to even explain their existence in Faerun or any setting that existed before 4e?

Drakes from 2E Dark Sun
Pre-Dragonborn from 2E Dragonlance

Also, why would anyone care if you can't "explain their existence" in a pre-4E setting? Are you an established fantasy writer with a wide breadth of canon fiction to mind, or are you just a whiny nerd who doesn't even have a group?

>>47573685
>cucks
>misspelled greentext
>autists
>don't forget about MLP

Somebody call the Russians, because this anon just went full-on MAD

>>47572219

Sorry, OP. I guess I'll just play another fucking human again.

>>47572647
How were dwarves created?
How were elves created?
It's a fantasy world that you make the rules up with your mind.
You can just say "I don't want dragonborn in my setting" and bam, dragonborn aren't there.

A large portion of why dragonborn are a core race is because WotC wanted to add a new core race, and Skyrim was popular at the time 4e came out.
Them removing dragonborn from core after that would be like removing Warforged from Eberron, they're part of the core now and they ain't going anywhere.

>>47574136
>I've gone through my AD&D race database, and I've found:
>Dracon (brontosaurus-taur thing with a draconic head)
>22 different species of actual dragon
>Sesk Draconians
>9 different types of half-dragon
>Pterrans (pteranodon-men)
>That's all 2e. No 1e products on that list.
Don't forget about the Saurials from Forgotten Realms. There are four different types (flyers, stegomen, triceranerds, and one more I think). They're a playable PC race in 2E.

>>47576550
Potato russian arrived. What do with this cyka?

>>47576585
Saurians are lizardmen, not dragonmen.

>>47574986
If the fact that they added a new core race is enough to throw a fit over "fucked up lore", I highly suggest avoiding the raven queen's personal undead servant race

>>47572367

I like to use dragonborn as an engineered race to keep a dragon's human subjects in line, or have them form the bulk of a dragon-led civilization.

Dragons already have so much going for them in terms of rulership, why not ACTUALLY make them rulers?

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>>47573685
>STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

You should really consider killing yourself.

>How am I supposed to even explain their existence in Faerun or any setting that existed before 4e?

How do you explain Warforged in Greyhawk, or Drizzt in Hollow World?

Answer: You don't have to use them in worlds where they don't exist

>>47572219
>How am I supposed to even explain their existence in Faerun or any setting that existed before 4e?

>Game where literal gods exist and muck around in mortal affairs all the fucking time
>Game where most settings are full of ancient, long-dead civilizations with way better magic than any current civilization.
>Game where it is fully within the power of some wizards to create their own new species and civilizations.
>Game where every single dragon above a certain age is more or less guaranteed to be a powerful wizard.

>He's too much of a retard to figure out where dragonborn could come from.

>>47572730
>Playing as dungeons
Warforged already exist.

>>47574986
>what 4e did to the lore
You know that 4e's setting is Points of Light, which was a new setting created for the edition, right? And that each D&D setting has vastly different lore, and even run on different "rules", right? And some of them don't even take place in the same -universe-, right?

>>47572219
Because Dragons is right there in the name of the game.

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>>47576824
>And that each D&D setting has vastly different lore, and even run on different "rules", right?
>and even run on different "rules"

>>47576844
Rules as in the fundamental concepts of the universe at large, I'm sorry I dumbed it down too much but I'm not used to talking at americans.

>>47572219
>How am I supposed to even explain their existence in Faerun or any setting that existed before 4e?

Don't. Don't include them if they bother you. You mong.

>>47572219
>Where did they even come from? How am I supposed to even explain their existence in Faerun or any setting that existed before 4e?

That's easy. A wizard did it.
Seriously. Those assholes fuck shit up all the time, do wacky experiments and unleash some kind of unnatural abomination on the countryside every few years. It happens. ESPECIALLY in Faerun.

>>47572219
>How am I supposed to even explain their existence in Faerun or any setting that existed before 4e?

They started in 3.5, anon. And they were a lot more cancerous back then. Back then, they were literal otherkin that went inside a giant egg in order to transform from their race into a dragonborn.

4e made them an actual race with an imperial history.

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>>47572219

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>>47576944
I don't know. I kind of like the idea of dragon-worship as a path to power. You go through all this training and study and meditation and prayer and then, when the time is right, you undergo the ritual that leaves you real, physical connection to your god. On its own, that doesn't have anything wrong with it. The concept is fine, but shitty players fuck it up and ruin the public consciousness of it so badly no one who doesn't suck can do it without attracting the negative connotation.

>>47577068
They're both interesting, it's just that a whole race needs a more traditional backstory, as opposed to a small sect or a single wizard.

>>47576641

And the difference between them is...?

>>47577068

I don't think the idea is bad in and of itself, I just think the implementation of 3.x dragonborn was fucking terrible. That sort of worship and transformation is something I feel should be a prestige class, paragon path, or 5e archetype, not a race.

But maybe I just like my draconic klingons too much.

>>47572219
Dragonborn are pretty cool, but making Tieflings normal will never sit right with me though. I mean, they're fiends for fucks sake. Everyone should hate those guys.

>>47572241
Casuals you say.

>>47576641
>>47577436
Reptiles ≠ lizards ≠ dragons

>>47577068
I think that'd be better as a later-level option. Too bad the Epic Destiny for fighters that turns you into a dragon was so unimpressive.

You're well within your rights to not use dragonborn or whatever other race. If I want to play something you've banned, there's no shortage of other people to play with. Your impotent hand-wringing won't ban them from everyone else's game too.

Besides, if you ban them, you're not playing any setting that has them anymore, not really. And if you weren't intending to to begin with, then it should go without saying that you can decide what exists or not.

>>47577523

Tieflings have been pretty common in most of my groups, well before 4e made them a core race. I think the popularity of Planescape has made them a kind of 'soft' core race, where unless the DM says otherwise you're usually pretty okay to play one.

Although, again, tieflings aren't just fiends. They're as >>47575156 said. They can still be as distrusted as you like, and even in 4e people keep them at arm's length due to their hinted history at being royal fuck-ups.

I really dislike the fact that Dragonborn and Tieflings are core races. I would not allow a player that race when I DM unless there is a really really fucking good reason.

>>47577640
>Too bad the Epic Destiny for fighters that turns you into a dragon was so unimpressive.
The bad ending for Dragon's Dogma where you fail to beat the final boss and are cast down to earth and you mutate into a dragon is more impressive than that.

>>47577992
What would qualify as a good reason? Just be honest and say you wouldn't allow them period if that's how it is.

There are few enough interesting races in the unsupported pile of trash that is 5e, without banning existing ones. Pick your battles.

>>47577992

You sound unfun to play with.

>>47578051
Tiefling maybe, depending on the scene and the look of the character. Dragonborn I think never yeah.

>>47572219
The only playable races in D&D should be humans, dwarves, elves and maybe halflings and merfolk. Ideally, the whole party should be humans.

>>47577992
And Im the complete opposite. Unless the player is a known shitter, they get to play whatever goddamn race is supported by the game, hell, I might give the players a bunch of more homebrewed options. I mean its high fucking fantasy, why not have your races actually reflect that instead of just more dull humans.

>>47578221
How about no. There should be a hundred races you can choose from for your campaign world you want to run and all should have support. You want to be boring and run a 'humans only' shit campaign, go ahead, but the rest of us will have fun running minotaurs and fetchlings and samsarans and whatever else the devs feel like making.

>>47578221
What's the point of using Tolkienesque elves and dwarves if you don't have crows, eagles, and shapeshifters?

>>47578357
What would you do with a player who is too afraid of upsetting you to decide a character for themselves?

>>47578357
This man knows his shit
Why even play a game with all these racial choices if you're gonna just say "humans only" for every game?
What's the fucking point?
And don't give me that Deus Vult shit, either.

>>47572219
Thiefling have been a playable race since 2e moron.

>>47572219
>NO FUN! I HATE FUN!

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>>47572219
friendly reminder that even the original rulebook back in 1974 basicaly says "you wanna be a dragon? sure long as the DM says Ok and you start out weak like everyone else, knock yourself out"

>>47578504
If they can't make a choice out of the 20 some odd races, not counting variations on elves and humans, I have available, then I'll take out my randomized NPC table for race and let them roll for it. Seriously, I made all these cultures and histories and pantheons for a reason, just pick one and play it.

And I've never had a player be afraid to upset me, I'm a pretty congenial fellow and there is very little they could come up with that would anger me when it comes to characters. You want to run a horsefolk swashbuckler with a penchant for wine and women? Go right ahead, just remember, we aren't going to talk about your horsecock, unless it's relevant to the plot (not likely). Want to run an orphaned and widowed elf touched by death who wears all black and wields an oversized katana? Cool, so long you can play along with the party. Want to run an evil character? Were going to have a talk about his motivations and make sure they don't conflict with the rest of the party.

>>47576727
>but dm I really want to play a droooooooooow it's even in phb why u say I can't play a drooooooooow

>>47578830
And if they just want to play something that gives the group more fun than they get themselves?

>>47578689
>tfw you usually start everyone at level 3 unless there's newbies because you hate hero's journey crap

>>47579333
Im not sure whats wrong here. They purposely chose a character that would be more fun for the group. Unless they hate playing or get bored, at which time I can work with them on retiring the character for something they might enjoy more, they chose that path. I'm not going to force someone to play something they don't want to play, but maybe next time they should think about their own enjoyment while thinking about the groups.

>>47579253
DMs should just grow some fucking spines and say no. Or say yes, but make them not unique snowflakes or based on the culture in the books.

>>47579478
Isnt this SOP for most groups?

>>47579689
>Im not sure whats wrong here.

I'm not sure either. I'm just scared that everything I do made the groups I joined or made fall apart quickly.

>>47572854
Not sure why but I absolutely love that photo.

>>47579827
I've been playing for over a decade. I still have those thoughts for groups that implode with no clear reason. If you're the anxious sort, they tend not to ever go away, you just get better at dealing with them. All you can do is ask the DM or any fellow players if you can get ahold of them if you fucked up, and if you can't, just try to make yourself a better person. So that even if they do implode and it is your fault, you'll have the foundation for fixing it. More than likely though, it wasn't your fault. Sometimes shit happens and it just wasn't meant to be.

>>47579689
>DMs should just grow some fucking spines and say no. Or say yes, but make them not unique snowflakes or based on the culture in the books.
Too much trouble. Drow culture, retarded as it is, is what makes them special. Take that away, and you're left with an elf that looks different and has slightly different abilities. And you're not getting away from the culture making a snowflake of any drow PC that's not running in an Underdark or evil game.
And working a whole new culture into my custom setting just because one bloke wants to play "something special"? Okay, if he does it and I approve, he's. Working together here could be fun. At the very least, I'd like a general idea of his plan before I let him start fresh and see where it develops.

Now that I think about it, I think that's why so many people seem to take issue with new races like tieflings and dragonborn. We can all more or less agree on what an elf or an orc is - even when talking about Warhammer, Warcraft, and Tolkien orcs. We have a huge body of work to look back to and say "oh, that's an orc" even if the work itself doesn't call it that anywhere. Big, mean, destructive, probably some sort of tribal/nomadic/raider culture.

Now, what's a dragonborn? Uhh, tall, scaly, breathes fire? What's a tiefling? Tail, horns and some vaguely demonic powers. See what I'm getting at? They're defined by what they look like and what they do, not what they actually are.

Dragonborn, and tieflings, even drow, may always have been present, but they were never presented as a major common thing - they were always exceptions, presented and treated as such, and are rarely main characters. So making such supposedly rare races available right there in the core book, even with the "those are rare!" sidebar devalues them, somehow, I suppose?

>>47572647
Well, apparently lore wise they think they where made by either the dragon lords or a dragon god to be servants to the dragons. Some of them rebelled and a few succeeded and became free.

>>47580230
And it's not even a "new bad" thing. I'll gladly allow tieflings (more like the old 2e random mutation tieflings, though) and include a dragonborn culture to my setting. But with very little to refer to, I'll have to explain both of those in a decent amount of detail to any new player in my campaign, just because we don't have much in the way of a common ground to work from in regards to those races.

Okay, I'm done.

>>47580230
>We can all more or less agree on what an elf or an orc is - even when talking about Warhammer, Warcraft, and Tolkien orcs. We have a huge body of work to look back to
>Dragonborn, and tieflings, even drow, may always have been present, but they were never presented as a major common thing - they were always exceptions, presented and treated as such, and are rarely main characters.
>So making such supposedly rare races available right there in the core book, even with the "those are rare!" sidebar devalues them
I think that's the whole point. To make them more common and to help build that big body of work that the other races have. I really don't see what the problem is unless it's that shitty geek culture issue of hating change or new things.

>>47580508
Maybe you're right, but I think that's a terrible way of going about it. That's a lot of work to hoist on a huge number of mostly insular groups that don't communicate with each other that much - not on the level necessary for fully fleshed out ideas to travel. Maybe something good will come out of this, but I doubt it.

Note how no-one was upset or confused over warforged. Robots/golems and AIs have been a staple of fiction for close to a century now, the idea of one learning to think for itself is really not much newer than that. Warforged were just putting a label on that.

Basically, I'm mostly agreeing with you that DMs should absolutely write those into their settings or stories if they want to - not just as a stat block. What I take issue with after thinking about it is the pressure including them in the core books puts on those who don't want to.
That's putting an undercooked character type in front of players who are now going to feel justified or entitled to play it and telling the DMs to deal with it.

>>47580840
I don't really see how Dragonborn, as an example, are any worse than Dwarves or Evles or especially Humans in that regard. Generally speaking all player characters fall into one of three categories:

A stat block
A lazy stereotype based on one of many particular depictions of that fantasy race
An actualised character that draws upon and/or diverges from an expected cultural background.

In any case other than some exceptions to the third I don't see how having a shared understanding of a race's culture or history is at all useful to the roleplaying experience. Either it won't be used at all or the player and GM can be trusted to come up with something to use themselves.

>>47580840
Those original elves and dwarves and other races also had issues with being an undercooked character type in the beginning too. The only difference is that modern DMs are too afraid to include them and help build up the required knowledge base of dragonborn over the next decade or so to really flesh them out. You're treading awfully close to that 'its new therefore bad' argument but from a different angle.

And it's not like they don't have any actual lore, some of it quite 'generic'. Just hand them a printout of the basic lore to give them an idea of how they work, something you should already be doing as a DM anyway, and then build them up with more lore specific to your world.

>>47572219
More importantly, how does that fucker have wings? He dont look like no sorcerer.

>>47581149

I think there was a racial paragon path that let a dragonborn grow permanent wings.

>>47580943
They're worse because there are stereotypes for dwarves, elves and humans. These stereotypes are part of this shared understanding - they factor into this expected cultural background.

Dragonborn, on the other hand, don't have any stereotypes yet, so cannot be
>A lazy stereotype based on one of many particular depictions of that fantasy race
nor can they be
>An actualised character that draws upon and/or diverges from an expected cultural background
because there is no expected cultural background to draw upon/diverge from. That leaves
>A stat block
the only available option.

>>47581095
>Those original elves and dwarves and other races also had issues with being an undercooked character type in the beginning too.
Really? I'm under the impression that they had some time to shape up between Tolkien (to say nothng of their mythological roots) and OD&D. They did, however, change over the years since, including under the influence of D&D players.

>You're treading awfully close to that 'its new therefore bad' argument but from a different angle.
I'm not saying they're bad. I'm saying they're new for novelty's sake and don't add much without a fair bit of work that not every DM or player wants to do. Again, I'm all for including them, so long as they're more than +2 STR and a breath attack that no-one knows what to do with.

>>47580230
>they were always exceptions, presented and treated as such, and are rarely main characters

That's kind of what the PCs are though, aren't they? Exceptions to the rule. They are (ostensibly) heroes, or at the least the protagonists of the collaborative story that unfolds at the table.

Having rare races be PCs just doesn't seem that big a deal. That's the point, I think, and while every table and every world will have some races and others, if you exclude a player from playing a race because "they're rare!" brings up the question: why even bother including them at all?

>>47581295
You're right that they can't be lazy stereotypes. I mistakenly avoided mentioning that in my post but really I just consider than an upside. I don't really give a shit about people wanting the dragonborn equivalent of "drinks beer and uses an axe!!" being the full extent of their character's description.

>there is no expected cultural background to draw upon/diverge from.
That's kind of where I disagree. You write that, just as you have to write it for every other character. There is not one defining Elf Culture or Dwarf Culture or, again especially, Human Culture for you to draw upon/diverge from. It's easier I guess for those pre-established races which is something but the freedom of choice when coming up with a Dragonborn society has to count for something too.

Really though I was a bit lazy in my original post so I want to change my argument a bit. It is easier to both create and explain a character from an established fantasy race. That just isn't a particularly important metric to me.

>>47572730
You jest, but warforged or a different but golem based race could become core. I'm rather tired of humans and their slightly mutated brother races.

>>47576871
I think he found a bit of wordplay in what you said and enjoyed it enough to respond to it. Calm the fuck down you pretentious tryhard.

>>47578221
That isn't high fantasy then. Unless you're going for "the other races think in strange and alien ways," but that's rubbish then because you don't think in strange and alien ways, so how would you believably portray them?

>>47580230
I see your point but I disagree. Learning what the new races are is pretty simple since they fall into established roles.
>Orcs: big, muscley, Germanic tribespeople
>Dragonborn: the Irish.
Maybe I mean Scottish, but their lore is basically they live in loose communities which are spread out, and they value freedom and honor. When they mate they stay together until the kid is a year or two old and then one of them takes the kid and he other goes on about their life.
>Drow: Amazonians, except underground.

I'll admit I have trouble with Tieflings as a race because that seems more like a case by case basis, especially since they can have so many kinds of outsiders as progenitors. I feel like they should be allowed as a race, and a community of them could exist, but nations of them seems kind of ridiculous.

>>47572739
I'm just going to point out that one of the core concepts of Eberron is "If it exists in D&D, it exists in Eberron."

Therefor, in that one setting at least, Dragonborn are justified by one of the guiding maxims of the setting itself.

>>47581295
I made the Dragonborn in my setting from the Caribbean. Different tribes formed on different islands. People just called them 'the natives' who spawned from great dragons on the North American mainland. I found the whole tribal/Jamaican theme works really well for them.

>>47581702
I could see a tiefling nation happening because of high level magical fuckery or as the end result of an evil nation's eugenics program.

>>47581295
I'm more than a little confused by your insistence that shared lore is important or even useful. Shared lore turns pcs into stereotypes more often than not, and generally settings vary from game to game. So yeah, I guess if you make your dwarf an ale loving heavy armor guy you're probably goimg to fit into a lot of games but it's not a guarentee, and anyway that's extremely superficial. It's like saying you can affect an accent and talk about soccer and you'll blend seamlessly into Britain. In fact, I would say that even without the established lore people would know as much superficial stuff about the newer races as they would the old.

>>47581702
>>Irish/Scottish/Welsh Dragonborn

Thanks anon, that's what I'll be using.

>>47581149
Call back to 3.5 stats where when a character went under the transformation they could pick one of three options: wings, breath weapon, or enhanced casting. Besides, being so awesome you grow wings is a pretty neat feature for a race.

>>47581295
Its really easy to figure out their stereotype from the lore they do have. They are honorabru warriors who are honest to a fault and seem vaguely celtic in culture, and in Forgotten Realms, they hate dragons.

>>47581724
Mine are the Golden Caliphate, a huge Sumerian/Akkadian and Persianesque empire ruled over by dragon godkings who claim to be the direct children of the dragon creator gods. Mesopotamia and the cultures from the region work really well for an ancient dragon people society, especially since Tiamat, and the good Paizo dragon god Apsu, are from that region.

>>47581898
I'm glad I gave you inspiration to that end. Scottish Dragonborn make more sense than Scottish Dwarves anyway. Do Dwarves get the accent because they like to drink, I wonder?

Thinking on Celtic Dragonborn some more I see another parallel. Dragon born have a first name, a last name, and a clan name. The last name is considered private, so usually you address them by the first and clan name. They love freedom, but are very loyal to the clan, which is usually that loose community I spoke of. My last dragonborn character was named Nadarr Drek T'Riversroar, with T' meaning "of," like how the "la" in Dracula means "son of." I think that was a world thing my gm told me to do though.

I don't mind lizardmen sorts of races, but the dragon shit is where I get annoyed with them as a concept. Having something closely related to dragons as a player race takes some of the weirdness out of dragons and that's just not okay to me. The same goes for kobolds really (I've reached the point where I just have them be doglike).
>>47580840
I'm not a fan of warforged. They tend to come with a lot of bullshit explanation and exceptions, and having robot people just as an option can really hurt the tone for a game
>>47581827
Tieflings being a nation instead of just irregularities was never really something I could get behind. I prefer the 'having a small amount of demon blood on your mother's side a few generations back' to 'ancestor from the country of half-satans' in terms of how I'd have to accommodate them in terms of world building

>>47582012
Dwarves were only ever Scottish in accent anyway, so taking all the other parts wouldn't really hurt anything

>>47581834
And I don't quite understand why you insist that having stereotypes == being/playing that stereotype. My point is more about knowing the setting and having material to start from if something unexpected comes in.
If a British character is suddenly called for in a real-world setting, an accent and football are better than nothing. If a British character is suddenly called for in Forgotten Realms, what the fuck and no he bloody well isn't.

>>47581724
>>47581724
>>47581978
These three are what we're talking about: giving them an interesting place in the world. And hopefully explaining that place to their players before/during chargen.

>>47582464
>These three are what we're talking about: giving them an interesting place in the world.
And 4e did that, giving them more setting backstory than maybe any other race.

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>>47573685
>Humanoid dragons? Really? What's next? Fucking ponies?
Nah. Shadowrun already called dibs.

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>>47582649

>>47582678
Don't forget that Hasbro owns WotC and My Little Pony. The suits at the top just give the word and you'll have Equestria as the next setting.

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>>47582812
T-take it back.

>>47582812
My Little Pony isn't even a thing anymore there's not enough money to be made in that.

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>>47582812
I'd buy the PHB if they did that. Honestly, there's probably a better homebrew PDF out there written by some autist with time on his hands

>>47582916
While yes, i feel like that........... fad... has died down alot, I'm sure they are still raking in some cash from bronies

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>>47573751
>Kindly leave and take your degenerate fetishes with you.


Come on, degenerate fetish, we're leaving. I can tell when we're not wanted.

>>47572565

Still better than ponyfinder.

>>47573751

>This is D&D not FurryQuest.

Which version of D&D has a compatible supplement with kitsunes, insects, androids, and ponies?

Because it sure as fuck ain't D&D.

>>47582649
>no unicorns on covers
>no griffons on covers
it's shit/10
I honestly had a ton of fun playing a griffon berzerker-type in a pony-themed homebrew.

>>47573685

You do realize there's a pony supplement for PF right?

>>47582649
>DECKING IS MAGIC
what realm is this¿
Even captcha is going wtf. Says to pick all the cars and all the cars it gives me look like theyve been totalled in a wreck.

>>47583696
>kitsunes
Renardy in Savage Coast, a 2E Mystara supplement
>insects
Tri Kreen in Darksun and Araneas, again in Savage Coast, which also included playable Lizardmen

>>47572569
Half of the races in Faerun have back story that starts "one day they appeared from a magic portal" so it's not like there isn't precedent.

>>47572219

Because it's a FANTASY roleplaying game.

>>47572219
I hate Dragonborn as a race.

As a template/gift bestowed by Bahamut/Bahamut Stand-in, it was perfect in my eyes.

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Everyone fuck the fuck off I'm a paremedic

>>47572219
Here you go.

>>47572219
I don't like Dragonborns really.
I let them be enemy NPCs and such, but the original races are pretty encouraged in my group.
We like to have settings where everyone is a dwarf anyway.

>>47572219
It came from 3.5's Draconomicon. In order to become a dragonborn you had to swear allegiance to Bahumat, regardless of race. They would then place the willing person inside a magical egg where they would then incubate and emerge as Dragonborn.

>>47581295
Dragonborn fit really well into Eberron, refluffed as the existing Lizardfolk. There's this swampy region of Khorvaire populated by them. Since it's not recognized as a real nation by the Treaty of Thronehold it's in the process of being colonized by one of the real nations (Cyre remnants? Karrnath?). There are different tribes of lizardfolk with at least one worshipping a Lord of Dust, a demonic overlord from truly ancient times, imprisoned in the swamp.

I think there's a lot of room for good stories about the colonization and resistance, inter-tribal warfare, or the Lord of Dust and Khyber Cults.

>>47577948
Heh, heheh, "soft core".

>>47577640
The epic destiny for sorcerers that turns you into a dragon is pretty damn good

>>47572442
Are you talking about 3.5?

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>>47572803
Dragonlance had Draconians. I don't know how that might conflict with the setting's lore because Draconians were created by corrupting the eggs of good dragons, which were being held hostage, IIRC
Draconians came is different types based on the eggs they were created from.

Dark Sun's always had the Dray.

>>47587045
4e actually had a Dragon article that offered playable Draconians using Dragonborn as the base race with some racial trait alterations. Only Kapaks, Baaz, and I think Bozaks though.

Another case of furries ruining something because the owners of the ip are hungry for furbux.

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>People take DnD this seriously and get this upset over a single race
I hope none of you try to hold games or join games at your local game stores, for everyone's sake.

>>47587348
>playing with randoms
For what purpose?

>>47587389
Well I meant I just hope people who are this up-tight and angry stay within their weird circle of friends, lest they sperg out in front of other people and make everyone have a shitty time.

Also I've met some really cool people trying out a game with randoms, people I've been friends with for years now. It's great.

>>47587403
I sincerely doubt hope? that the people itt thread wouldn't sperg out this hard in meatspace. This is 4chan, part of the appeal of anonymity is to react to things in a way you can't in real life.

>>47587425
You say that, but I was at a GW just browsing when a huge commotion started. Apparently some guy go so fucking assmad at the way someone customized a miniature that he broke it and started screaming how the guy who made the model should be banned from the store for it and how breaking the miniature was justified. Never seen a guy get thrown out of a store before.
Some people don't have an off switch.

That and if I decide "hey I'm gonna be a dragonborn (or other kinda odd race) for this character" and a fellow player/DM is going to genuinely think less of me because of it, that's someone who should not be playing RPGs honestly.

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>>47572496
>have sudden flashbacks to having some kind of special silver stegosaurus with warpaint from this show
Holy shit anon you've unlocked a whole year of memories I'd forgotten about...

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>>47576567
>A large portion of why dragonborn are a core race is because WotC wanted to add a new core race, and Skyrim was popular at the time 4e came out.

PHB 4e published 2008
SkyRim Published 2011

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>Your favourite race is stupid and doesn't belong in DnD whereas my race is superb and should be core
Thread over

>>47577436
Can they breathe fire/lightning/etc? Do they have the third set of limbs (wings)?

I have never met a well adjusted person that wants to play Dragonborn.

Everyone who plays them is some furry weirdo or other flavour of degenerate fetishist.

The only other exception is 13 year olds who think dragons are "kewl :DDD"

>>47588296

Not all dragonborn have wings (in fact, most don't), and not all dragonborn have a breath weapon (Dragonfear is an alternate racial power that causes penalties in nearby enemies via Fear).

>>47588303
And what about tieflings?

>>47588397
Same shit but I think Dragonborns are less edgy.

Tieflings are what happen to Dragonborn players if their dad beat them a little too hard.

>>47588407
Do they go "hurr i'm a demon kneel or get rekt"?

>>47588422
Well they all enjoy Naruto so what do you think

>>47572219
>dragonborn are a fetish-tier meme race, get them out of muh DnD
>dragonborn but Small-sized and with a penchant for autism are perfectly fine

>>47572739
>Dark Sun
Do you even know about the glorious children of Dregoth?
Fucking Pleb.
Don't hack Athasian because you need support for your half baked rant.

>>47573685
Enlighten me what is so fetishy about them anon. Go ahead.

>>47588428
I dunno what to think, never saw Naruto. But I still wanna play a tiefy.

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>>47588436
>kobolds are now dergunbern
I'm okay with this

Dragonborn would like 100x better if they weren't just humans with dragon heads.

How about make them like the PC in that video game Dragon Commander? A big fucking vaguely humanoid dragon that wrecks shit but has obvious disadvantages due to size and appearance.

It would be less retarded and more awesome if someone could make it work like that and not just be fucking LIZARDMAN from Soul Calibur but gay as fuck.

>>47572219
In 3.X tieflings and half-dragons were such a popular "things players begged the GM to let them play" point of discussion on their official forums (do those still exist?) that they figured fuck it in 4E. A host of people also dislike gnomes, too, so they caught a backseat.

Given that, why wouldn't they think that maybe these high demand races (which required an LA adjustment and thus were hard to get away with) should be retrofitted on as core 1st level races?

>>47588475
Isn't that the theme though?
Elves are just humans with pointy ears.
Gnomes are humans with pointy hats.
Dwarves are short humans.
Orcs are green angry humans.
Halflings are short humans that don't like rocks.
Tiefling are red humans with a tail and horns.

>>47588495
You could be a dragonborn in 3.5. It was just slightly different, expensive, and time consuming.

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>>47573751
>spit lightning
>fetish

wew lad. That's either a massive leap of thought, some crazy projection, or somebody *nudge, nudge* has a thing for lighting...

>>47588496
I really dislike the standardizing of tiefling features.

>>47587246
It's not hard to homebrew the rest. Auroks are simply low/mid level sorcerers to start + port abilities and energy bolts as a standard action.
The noble draconians are easy to homebrew and every single one has a base counterpart in 3.5.
Auroks - Flame
Sivaks - Lightning
The lightning draconians basic racial class levels are Paladin which is pretty cool for Krynn.
Throughout all of the dragonlance editions there isn't much that has changed when it comes to Draconians.

>>47587460
What was he upset about? Mk II Marine shoulders on a Mark V suit? Something spergier?

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>>47588567
>just getting into wh40k
>have small force of spehss muhreens using parts from friends armies because I'm poor
>go to flgs for a game or two
>leviathan appears
>starts sputtering something my Marines not being Mark
>"I don't know a mark, these are Dark Angels"
>his face glows red as if he's becoming a Bloodthirster of Khorne
>screams about the Norman's invading or some shit and proceeds to break one of my Marines
So how was your weekend tg?

>>47572219
In my setting, dragonborn are the product of young dragons raping peasant women out in the fields since going out to find another dragon for a mate means a high chance of meeting an adult female that will eat them. They are barely smarter than a dog too.

Until they eat a powerful dragonborn that is, then they gain the dragonborn's sapience and they gain the ability to cast spells as well as grow larger than physics wants them to be. Young shitty dragonborn equates to being an old shitty dragon who can barely breathe fire or get off the ground, so they hunt for competent dragonborn.

Before you ask, no I didn't rape anyone with a dragon during a game. Although I did eat a number of dragonborn.

>>47572219

>>47572367
>why are they now a core race all of a sudden?

If you have THAT much of a problem with them, just call them half-dragons, assume they aren't the ones with the wings (unless they take the paragon path) and be done with it. It stands to reason that in a game called Dungeons and DRAGONS, someone might get the idea they want to play something dragoy-ey. Other than "muh tradition" what reason do you have to say no?

>"But anon, now can half dragons be a core race, if humans and halflings are too, but get just as many racial bonuses"

Well, just like every other PC race in 4e (which includes freaking minotaurs) you assume that the PC's of less powerful races are sufficiently exceptional examples of their race to be comparable to the most powerful PC race present. 4e's powerscaling and hero/mook seperation would support this anyway.

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>>47572569
>lore dating back centuries.
>>47572739
>I meant in terms of established lore within settings like Greyhawk, Eberron, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, etc...
>If you read the history of the forgotten realms, not one mention is made of "dragonborn" yet now all of a sudden they're a core race that exist in every major settlment across Faerun?

Really, you're going to canonfag this hard? Maybe, just MAYBE, new editions exist in slightly different versions of established settings. If you're going to canonfag THAT much, you may as well ask why kobolds spontantously went from pug-faced dog-men, to dragon-worshiping lizard-midgets, or any of the other changes that have happened over the years. You just focus on this one because it comes from 4e, and because it appeals to new players.... and I'm just going to go out on a limb and guess that 4e and new players are two things you irrationally hate.

DnD really just has too much of everything. Dozens of types of dragons alone, its absurd.

Why is there not a popular fantasy RPG where elves are mysterious fae beings in the woods and seeing a wizard is noteworthy for most people outside of major towns? Instead we are stuck with a fantasy superheroes game with a bloated list of races.

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>>47589097

>a game called dungeons and DRAGONS has a lot of dragons in it

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>>47588466
Dragons are inherently fetishy. Dragonborn are related to dragons, but not necessarily there for savagely murdering the fuck out of, so they're even more fetishy.
Come on, anon, it's obvious, considering how normal dragon fetishes are. Practically vanilla.

>>47589124
Making dragons common ruins any value they have. Dragons should be extremely rare, it actually makes them significant.

And splitting them up into dozens of easily identifiable categories is not good either.

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Why the fuck did Wizards decide to make this cancerous, fetish-tier meme race one of the core races in D&D.

Does Hasbro own a mining company or something?

Like, what the actual fuck? Where did they even come from? How am I supposed to even explain their existence?

Fuck that. I don't care if they're in the PHB, you're not playing a fucking dwarf in my game.

Same goes for elves.

Seriously, why not play a midget if you have a fetish for short people? Fucking Wizards trying to play off of autists' sex drives.

>>47573435
I did

>>47589155
Would you be assuaged by common drakes and rare dragons? Gives plenty of beasties that can carry a man away and burn him alive for eating, while still bringing the hype for the big boys.

>>47573997
They just told players to start as a young dragon.

>dragonborn
>tieflings
>no aasimar

this triggers my autism

>>47578830
You seem like a cool guy.

>>47589228
aren't assimar basically high, high elves

>>47589394
uh, no?
They're dudes/dudettes whose granpa/granma was an angel of some kind

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>>47589394
That's more like eladrin, in both pre-4e and 4e.

4e's celestial race is the Deva.

>>47589228
To be honest, I'd be fine with Aasimar staying outside, if we'd only get the Deva.

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>complaining about dragonborn
>meanwhile, elves, half-elves, and eladrin all exist
>this is apparently okay
At least dragonborn are goddamn DIFFERENT.

>>47588843
Not that anon, but I miss the dog-men kobolds. Everyone wants the lizard-midget kind.

>>47586998
I've used it as the origin of dragonborn in 4e as well. In one campaign I ran, the dragonborn were originally the devout warriors of a dragon-worshiping religion who figured out a ritual to partially transfigure themselves into dragons a hella long time ago. Then they figured out they could breed with each other, which led to a population boom, them swearing off turning non-dragonborn into dragonborn and an eventual founding of their own deeply-religious culture. Since, their own parent society has died, their own society has transformed as expected, and while they don't really have a problem with draconic transfiguration, they don't do it anymore and they like to make distinctions between people who were born as dragonborn and people who were reborn as dragonborn. They've also kind of backed off on the whole "transcending mortality and becoming a true dragon" thing. Dragon worship still happens in some places and there's at least one far-flung monastery that has rediscovered the rite of dragon blood. They are still totally into the whole "transcending mortality and becoming a true dragon" thing.

>>47588303
I have

I've played with rampant optimizers many a time, hell, I am one, I've just never played a str/cha class in 4e, the prerequisite to choosing a dragonborn for not-shit purposes

>>47582544

Tied with tieflings, as their history was intertwined.

>>47589615
Why aren't they rats, seriously

>>47589516

Deva are better anyway, I like that they're the true opposite of 4e/5e Tieflings, I also enjoy their connection with Rakshasa.

I wish they had developed more original races when they felt the need to add new ones. Instead we got demon people, dragon people, and double elves.

>>47589228
Aasimar are not in the PHB

The races in the PHB are humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, half-elves, half-orcs, dragonborn and tieflings

The races that SHOULD be in the PHB are humans, elves, dwarves, halflings and that's it.

Having more races adds absolutely NOTHING to the game. It's just another race you have to somehow fit into the world and create kingdoms and write a history for.

>>47572219
>Why the fuck did Wizards decide to make this cancerous, fetish-tier meme race one of the core races in D&D.

Because D&D is cancer, OP? Did it ever occur to you?

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>>47589615
>>47592877
They were possibly dogmen in like one book in one edition.
Incidentally the mistranslation of doglike resulted in dog kobolds in Japan. They were weak goblinoids in the very first edition of D&D (1974 edition).
AD&D 1e made them scaly with horns and vaguely rat shaped tails and dog shaped heads. Some sources, such as Dragon magazine said they were related to xvarts, blue gnome-like creatures that hated everything.
AD&D 2e Monstrous Compendium Vol One used the pug faced gobliny picture despite it not following the description.
The Monstrous Manual released later uses the DiTerlizzi illustration which better reflects the old 1e art and the description.
The Complete Book of Humanoids used the Monstrous Compendium art but the description doesn't match up, once again being dog headed scaly humanoids with rat-like tails and horns.
Complete Book of Gnomes and Halflings illustrates them looking very much like a cross between 3e and 1e.
D&D 2e, a separate line of books from AD&D, had them as scaly doglike creatures. In the Orcs of Thar gazetteer they were given the taxonomic name of Canis minor with three subspecies. Incidentally they also made gnolls Canis Erectus despite hyenas not being canines.
3e just went ahead and simplified all this weirdness of scaly doglike creatures and made their art actually reflect what the description of them was in older editions. Unfortunately most of the art early on started to stray too lizardy and draconic.
4e just used 3es version and amped up the dragon aspects.
5e does the old description perfectly while keeping the lore and type of kobold from 3e and 4e.

Pathfinder took 3es design and just made them even more draconic.

>>47594091
>Kobolds once were mini-Baragons
I can dig it.

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>>47594091
And heres the 5e kobold. Notice the doglike head with horns, scaly body, and rat-like tail (basically long, doesn't move around all that much and slightly tapered)? This is kobold art done right. Fuck the stupid pugfaced gobliny thing.

>>47593865
But you still have to make cultures up for elves, dwarves, and halflings too. Ideally for the imaginationless contrarians and 4chan Deus Vult grognards, it should be humans only. After all there are enough human cultures to go around supposedly.

Fuck that noise, bring on the heaps and heaps of varied and different races. I want dragon people and catfolk and androids and elves and all that shit. Give me something to stimulate my creativity and to take it in weird and different places. If your too much of a spineless DM to say no to certain races in your campaign worlds despite them being core, you should get a different hobby that caters to your lack of balls.

>>47573000
Some of us actually care about the lore of D&D settings anon.

How do you think people would feel if Dragonborn were suddenly inserted into Middle Earth or Earthsea or [insert you favourite setting here]?

Their existence makes no sense. Their history makes no sense. Their anthropology and ecology makes no sense.

They are there simply because a vocal minority of autists have a dragon fetish.

>>47594524
New edition means new versions of the settings. It does not mean future years of the settings.

>>47593865
>Having more races adds absolutely NOTHING to the game.

By that logic, you shouldn't fight anything other than humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings. After all, Beholders, demons, devils, and the like are races too.

>It's just another race you have to somehow fit into the world and create kingdoms and write a history for.

You can also just not include them in your campaigns. WotC is not twisting your arm or holding you at gunpoint, forcing you to use the races they wrote down in every game you ever run.

>>47594757
That's not by his logic so much as a semantics argument

>>47572219
>How am I supposed to even explain their existence in Faerun
Elminster fucked a dragon and it had babies, or he turned into a woman and fucked a dragon and had babies. Possibly he fucked a dragon and they both had babies.

>>47594856
>semantics argument

Fair point.

>>47595035

Every single out-of-place thing in Forgotten Realms can be handwaved away with "Elminister did it."

I'm not even being hyperbolic here, that's half the reason shit goes down in Faerun.

>>47594524

The same way I'd feel if vancian magic were thrust into those settings. Actually, I could probably handle Dragonborn better.

>>47595591

Or DnD style elves for that matter. They aren't Tolkien elves at all, but every setting with elves has to have DnD style elves it seems.

>>47594524

I would rather have dragonborn "infect" my favorite setting than any of the other cancer spawned from D&D's gaping maw.

Vancian magic, alignments, 1 hour travel times, caster supremacy, etc. is already something that has infected the ttRPG community as a whole.

By comparison, a race of half-dragons is a much easier pill to swallow.

>>47595647
What's the difference according to you? I'm pretty sure other than lifespan they're similar, and dnd elves are the generic "lives long time therefore has graceful cities and graceful movements and shoots arrows/uses gracefully shaped weapons."

>there are people who still defend halflings, dwarves, and elves because "MUH TRADITION"
>there are people who sperg out over beast races because "EW FURFAGS"
>there are people on /tg/ who sperg out over beast races but openly accept insectoids, or flavor-of-the-month shit like pangolins or moth people

I'm so sick of Tolkien, but evidently that's all that sells anymore.

>>47595852

They aren't even half-dragons, they're just humanoids with draconic traits.
There's never been any dragon-dicking in their origins, not even the arguably fetishy 3.5 version.

>>47596575

Either way, I can handle a race of not!Half-Dragon creatures than any of the other bullshit introduced in D&D.

>>47596696

I know it wasn't relevant to the rest of your comments, but it's such a common misconception that it's started to get to me..

>>47596831

D&D as a whole is built upon misconceptions atop misconceptions.

The way HP works, the way the 3x3 alignments works, the way feats work, the way spell slots are supposed to work, abstractions and misconceptions that make no sense unless you look at it as a game and not a world with internal consistency.

Honestly, I'm surprised people are still bothered by this kinda shit, especially since shit changes so often it's hard to even tell what's what anymore.

>>47573782
Having suffered through about 20 human only campaigns, I'm just going to tell you your players will be pissed if you use any other fantasy races in your game.

If you ban all but human, use your own rule for lore and what you throw against them.

>>47572219
>Can't believe no one said this
Have you tried not playing DnD.PNG?

>>47572219
we got it OP, you hate fun and your games are serious business.

>>47597021
So you're saying that everything in the MM should be a PC race?

Look I understand that you think it's cool to play a half-dragon, half-vampire sorcerer/assassin but it's not going to happen. Aside from the myriad of practical, rules related reasons why such a character wouldn't work it just doesn't make sense for certain races to become adventurers.

>>47598329

You know the word strawman gets thrown around a lot on this website, but looking at his post, and then looking at the scenario you've derived from it.
This is a perfect textbook definition strawman argument, and I believe it should be preserved for teaching purposes.

>>47598536
Agreed. It's probably bait, but I'm feeling peckish.

>>47598329
He didn't say that.
What you spouted does not exist in the MM.
Class has nothing to do with race.
There is no one true reason for someone to become a wanderer. Almost anyone can be explained into being a wanderer, even if you need divine intervention to do it. God bestowed curses are a thing.
And for clarification, Anon said if you enforce a "humans only" rule on the PCs them you should not use nonhuman races, like elves or dwarves. While I think it could be done if you make them alien enough, his opinion is his own and he speaks from experience.

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Am I wrong in assuming that the people who get mad about a specific aspect of a setting are actually people who've never played a tabletop RPG and don't understand that "canon" doesn't really exist in any meaningful, enforceable sense?

>>47572219
I basically just said they recently arrived from another continent far to the east and scholars saying they are descended from an ancient army the dragons made for whogivesafuck thousands of years ago.

>>47598770

Yes.

Because there does exist many popular tabletop games that take place within a canon settings that operate within their own consistent set of rules.

Just because D&D doesn't base its rules on consistent setting doesn't mean that it's something that every other game does.

>>47599399
While this is true, OP started this thread about DnD. So OP doesn't understand how D&D relates to its settings, namely game comes first, settings come after. It probably makes it a bitch and a half to write novels for the game, but it's an associated risk when you choose a game that is not intrinsicly linked to the setti g you are writing in.

>>47594091
Never seen that concept art before, got any more or a link?

>>47600793

>It probably makes it a bitch and a half to write novels for the game.

Not necessarily.

All you have to do is pick one of the many settings that D&D has and just focus your attention on that.

The issue comes from times when the game is written in a setting neutral approach that offers no real context to the world taking place within the game.

>>47596325
>Make elves, dwarves, and halflings into beast races
>Call them different names
>Nobody spergs out because it's a game
>Players actually prefer the rabbit-halflings to regular ones
Livin' the dream.

>>47601152
Sadly, I wasnt able to find anything. I have no idea where the person who made the picture got it from. I do know that some Dragon magazine issues in the lead up to 3e showed some of it off since I used to own a bunch.

>>47593865
You are only right from a fluff perspective. From a crunch perspective more races means more available stat combinations, and more racial abilities to choose from, which is great

>>47593865
>wanting boring-ass humans, retarded dwarves, and faggy elves and halflings

Why?

>>47601180
I meant along the lines of what OP was bitching about. If a new edition adds a race it would make it hard to write them into the book series suddenly. Is Drizzt suddenly going to meet a dragonborn? If he does how does he react?

>>47572219
Dragonborn are a way for people to connect the games "dungeons and dragons" with dragons.

>>47588679
>someone damages your property
Kill him

Special snowflake races are cancer.

>>47572338
Meh. Speaking 5e, metamagic can be pretty fun.

I don't mind them in theory but I've never seen art of them that I thought didn't look silly.

>>47603434
Special snowflake players are cancer.

>>47572854
>have fun wasting your life

>In a board full of people who use their spare time to roll dice and pretend to be someone else.

Oh dear.

>>47606316

At least we're having fun and not sperging out over non-issues.

>>47582812
I wouldn't mind that, to be honest. It would probably add a fuckton of mechanics that allow for nonviolent resolution which could add more flexibility to campaigns without diplomancing everything.

>>47603434
But anon, that's every race besides humans.

And if your game is human-only, what's the point of fantasy? Aren't you here to play something you aren't?

>>47606472
Dude this whole thread has been sperging out over non-issues.

Gotta point out that dragon people in D&D existed for a looong ass time. Draconians from the Dragonlance set. They moved it to SAGA after Ad&D 2nd, but there was a setting box made for it. WotC just rebranded and transplanted (which they suck at, BTW).

TL;DR: oldfag misses TSR

>>47603434
How can a race be special snowflake? Having a bunch of racial features? Beinf described as beautiful? Being flawless and graceful and also long lived?
Yeah, elves are more special snowflake than dragonborn. You gonna start petitioning to get them removed from DnD?

>>47608069
Yes. Elves are a monster race only.