/wfg/ - Warhammer Fantasy General:

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Can you guys help me find high quality Karl Kopinski artwork?

I want to create a mod which adds them to the loading screens and menus in TW:WH.

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>>47485881
I don't want to be that guy, but isn't a two second google search enough? http://bloodofkittens.com/art/category/karl-kopinski/

For the rest of the thread, on a whim I 'created' a character I probably won't ever use in my WFRP campaigns as a DM, unless my group ever ventures through the Realm of Chaos and needs to burn Fate Points.

>>Despite his name, the Chaos Knight is an implacable enemy of the minions of the Dark Gods. Such is his prowess he strikes fear into the fearless. He wears armour, seemingly plate, of green and glossy blue. Such is his strength that no defence is possible. His anger is immeasurable, his constitution is without equal, his lust for vengeance is unparalleled, and his hope is without quantity. He is the enemy of the four brothers. He is their Doom.
>Special Rules: Dominating the Indomitable - The Chaos Knight strikes fear into those who cannot feel it. Lesser Daemons suffer from Terror whilst in his presence, Greater Daemons suffer Fear.

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>>47486345
I asked because I remembered him doing a lot more than what google image search revealed. Although I now realize that's because I was remembering artwork by Adrian Smith, not Kopinski. Pic related.

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>>47486684
Too many great artist to mention. No one can be worse than John Blance. Unless he does backgrounds, then he's good.

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>>47485840
>playing total warhammer
>playing as empire
>mannfred and heinrich make an incursion into my territory with massive armies
>manage to wound heinrich with an agent before the battle
>go in with karl franz and balthazar, have a 3rd army but it's too far to make it in time
>vampire counts have 4 armies against my 2 but my units have a veterancy advantage
>underestimate their numbers when the batlte starts
>formation holding them off decently but starting to worry
>balthazar's army came in from a shitty spawn point and will take a while to make it to the main fighting
>karl leading from the frontlines to keep up morale but getting swarmed
>dealing with flanking bats attacking my reiksguard
>Gelt's army finally arrives to relieve some of the tension, he had mortars and shit
>decide i've got one shot at this and karl takes off on his pegasus to seek out manny von cuntstain at the back of the legions of undead
>savage duel ensues but THE EMPIRE ENDURES
>tired soldiers fighting a suicidal battle to enable this final gambit thank sigmar as the endless ranks of the dead begin falling apart without the dark magic to sustain them

fuck that was some hype shit, love this game. Shit was coop too, had my buddy controlling gelt's forces. Light wizards are the shit btw, Pha's protection and that net spell to stop enemy cav charges can seriously turn the worst of tides

Total War: Warhammer is the fastest selling Total War title and will soon be one of the best selling Total War games of all time.

GW done fucked up.

>>47488081
It's just a fad.

>>47488032
that scene always tickled me, Like, How the fuck did aragon know to place his army on the only stable bit of land?

Or was it neumonorean magic keeping them up?

What about the orcs that were right on the edge of the cliff, all scared shitless? did they just get punted in?

>>47488256
Yeah it was incredibly convenient wasn't it. I mean you see some soldiers running back to the side that isn't crumbling too so I guess they just overextended. Surely some of them didn't make it. Kinda fucked up

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muh 2nd sylvanian

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Where can I find some more really high-res and detailed maps of the Warhammer Fantasy world? Google isn't really helping me much in that regard.

>>47488426
>really high-res
http://www.gitzmansgallery.com/warhammer-maps.html

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>>47488505

That's absolutely beautiful.

I am fully erect now.

Thank you, anon.

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>>47487226
>not liking John Blanche

>>47488379
I like it!

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>>47489416
He's extremely hit or miss for me.
Quite a lot of his (mostly early) stuff is just simply unappealing to me, even ugly, but then there are pieces that just make me all tingly inside.

>>47489416
His art for the Daemons was the best.

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>>47489504
The early stuff was 10/10 most of the time.

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>>47489749

>>47489749
I'm not going to agree but I'm glad you feel that way, anon.
>that fucking bat
Magnificent bastard.

>>47488226
Hello Slav.

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>>47489771
>quoting GW's retarded reasoning for not investing more into vidya is being Slav

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i did it whfbg
i finally found a 9th age group

>>47489771
I think that's a sarcastic joke about Kirby saying video games are a fad in the early 2000's.

>>47489980
Cool! Post some batreps when you get a chance, and have fun.

>>47485840
Sickly, sinful, spectacles stand, shuffle, shamble and saunter shamelessly in mine scandalized sight! I suggest a solution...

Surely such sedition should sour and succumb to Sigvald-the salacious, scandalous and sensational servant of Slaanesh! Son of Succubi, scion of sordid acts and slayer of squalid serfs!

See how I stroll, stride, swagger and swirl, spin, slash and stab at stupid, senseless scum! Soon they shall swoon, shall seek solace and death from sundry torments wrought on them by my strategic, severing, scintillating shower of shimmering strikes!

Send for the sword-summon Sliverslash!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skFKNudZuWM

I love this sexy senseless bastard.

>>47490033
That speech needs V's passion.

I have a question about a BL book in whfb

It has to do with a bretonnian knight whose wife walks into the fucking wood elf forest and he goes in to rescue her and ends up becoming a grail knight.
It was a pretty neat story
anyone got a name?

>>47485840
I might be looking right at it and not seeing it (derp), but is any one of those a pdf of the 2nd ed Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay?

>>47491296
please respond

>>47492323
This?

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/tales-from-the-archive-grail-knight.html

Is it just me, or do Kerillian and Bardin have a sort of 'vitriolic fuckbuddies' thing going on.

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>>47486345
CAN I RECOMMEND 'CHAOS SLAYER?'

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>>47485840
I news art of dragon ogres, will give memes for rare pics

>>47492782
I think she's more into Sienna.
Bardin is kind of undorfy though, he acts like the big brother to the whole group.

Nobody likes Victor though.

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>>47492815

>>47488081

Only in the minds of those who expected everyone who wasn't already into Fantasy would become a convert once they picked the game up.

The game has been out a week and even diehard pro-Fantasy places like Whineseer have been quiet on the anecdote front.

GW will cash their royalty checks and and enjoy the possible minor boost to sales of Fantasy books available via Black Library and life will continue on.

>>47489735

I really did like how the bestiary in both the Daemon and Vampire Counts army books consisted solely of his art.

Does anyone have a mediafire link or anything to the second ed WHFBRP?

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>you will never be one of the remaining living, unchanged sylvanian gentry in an isolated boggy fiefdom stoicly leal to your von carstein overlords in a resigned way, unwilling to break the familial oathes of your ancestors to serve their line while equally unwilling to embrace the kiss of undeath

>>47492887
To be fair, the feeling is mutual.

>>47492907
Who is this semen demon? The drawstyle looks a bit like ModeSeven, but I'm not sure.

new fag here My local GW only has AoS figures.Can you use AoS figures for Fantasy?

>>47488256
It was magic yes.

>>47493896
No. Though you can use Fantasy for AoS as I understand it.

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>>47493716
Yeah, it's Mr. Mouthboob.

>>47493896
>>47493990
Most of the new AoS models do not work in Fantasy unless you proxy them as something else.

Most most AoS models are Fantasy models on the wrong bases. Fantasy required square bases, bases don't matter in AoS but they started repacking them with round bases for no reason.

So you need square bases and some of the new models do not fit on them. Otherwise, AoS works.

>>47493997
Damn, I'm good. Wish he would do more worksafe stuff, his style is super cute.

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>>47493896
Any model from any company works as long as it fits on the correct base size.

Age models do not come with square bases, so you'll need to get some separately.

>>47494022

>but they started repacking them with round bases for no reason.

The reason is likely that the Designers feel that the models look better on round bases, same reason while Space Marines got bumped up to 32mm.

Another possible reason is that it allows them to gradually cut back on the number of square bases they have to make, none of their games now make use of a square base. The repacks are also about sometimes changing the number of figures you get and updating the box.

Less likely is that they may be trying to gradually phase out square bases so that measuring from the base becomes an option in AoS. Though considering that GW has had a policy that you can use whatever version of a model as long as they made it, even if it's smaller, I'm not really sure about this.

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wud u pat a skaven?

>>47494481
...d...does that Rat have tits?

>>47494511
yurp. TItty rats coming from holes in the ground

>>47493526
Anyone? Am thirsty. Also curious.

>>47493526
>>47494780

It's all also in the OP desu senpai.

http://khorne.ru/2nd/wfrp_web/

Looking to do 9th Age.

What would Nagash and the Mortarchs be fielded as? I can't find anything like them in the rulebook.

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>>47494804
Thank you

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>>47494511
Why would it not?

>>47495530

It feels so satisfying that I got a complete nezumi collection in L5R. Another good fucking game that got fucked up by its publisher and got the axe. The same year as WHFB, even. Fuck 2015

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>>47495674
>Another good fucking game that got fucked up by its publisher and got the axe.
Oh fug, another one gone while I wasn't paying attention?

>L5R is now just a "LCG"

Iirc, the bretonnians were already horsemen basing their culture on high elf ruins before they started worshiping the lady. What if they had been a heavy infantry tribe instead? What would bretonnia look like if instead of Knights they were badass infantry?

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>>47494481
>you will never have a taboo sexual relationship with a Skaven tsundere girl

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>>47496389
They'd Swordmasters instead of Silver Helms. They'd be gold and silver Warriors of Chaos.

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>>47496389
They'd be the same, just with less horses.

>>47496473
The problem is Skaven canonically have no positive human emotions. They really do only feel hate, fear, anger, jealousy, paranoia, and probably heartbreak.

But since people see parallels by the kind of madness that rats who are born in massive overpopulation have in Skaven, its possible you could have a Skaven waifu if you got a broodmother and some male amputees to get semen from and produce a few generations of Skaven born in open fields and worship of (non-Chaos deity).

>>47496536

Since it's very likely Skaven are the result of normal rats transmuted by Warpstone, no amount of nurture may be able to change them.

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What does /tg/ think of the new paints? Any reviews on the gemstone one? Could you add other paint to mix a new color for like carnelian and stuff?

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>mfw browsing the Games Workshop catalog for more models for my Sylvan Elves

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Anyone know what model the tree woman is?

>>47496922
Their physical appearance is definitely the result of warpstone/magycke, but their behaviour is really like what the other anon pointed out, a mirror of real life rats in case of overpopulation. Get rid of that and it's possible they could be less insane.

>>47497274
http://www.ultraforgeminiatures.com/?page_id=60

>>47497054
I'm honestly pretty excited for them. I've got a bunch of Necrons I need to paint so these came along just in time for me to get off my lazy ass and get started on them. I like the metallic/blue one and the glosses look awesome, but I haven't tried any of them yet.

>>47497526
Awesome, thank you!
That'll be my Durthu. I found it odd the tiny ones were all female and the big ones were male.

I'll have to give it a jagged Dryad mouth though.

>>47497534
What's the difference between the old and new metallics? They look the same to me.

>>47497054

Going by the examples in WD, the glosses seem like an improvement if you want to keep a metallic shine.

>>47497458
There's a valid point that can be argued either way.

According to Skaven Heraldry Clan Mange is the most loyal Skaven, and don't backstab because they're mercenaries who are entirely loyal to employers. They are also bald.

So Skaven who are bald are closer to human? Or with their lifestyle as wanderers found in as bodyguards to the highest positions of society, or otherwise are always on the move, are just the least exposed to Warpstone and the frantic life of overpopulation and no privacy others suffer?

>>47497054
>>47498010
>Coming out with the best gold and gem paint after squatting Tomb Kings

Its like Games Workshop doesn't like success. Like whenever they have a good idea and write it down, someone comes in and says "This looks too good, I'd better muck it up a bit" and scrawls some sabotage steps.

>>47498063
>So Skaven who are bald are closer to human?
They are sigmarites who want to receive Sigmar's blessings easier.

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>>47498063

>Trusting the bald ones

You're falling for their trap.

>>47498009
I'd say not much beyond the pigments in them, these ones are less metallic looking and more colored/glossy. Plus the blue/green ones look more vibrant and the orange-y one looks like another copper. Like I said, though I haven't used them at all so they might look different actually using them. The layer ones definitely look nice, especially the gold on the Necron in the far back.

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>>47488379
Another brave son of Sigmar. Karl Franz not Boris Todbringer, ok.

>>47497274
"Hey, kid, wanna ss?"

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If you want a "good" skaven, the best idea is to run him like Gollum: spiteful and wicked, but also pathetic and perhaps fawningly loyal to a truly kind, giving soul...at least for a little while, until his baser nature wins out.

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>GW has become more open to reprinting their old material in both paper and electronic forms.
>Fantasy being scrapped means that the chances of Liber Chaotica, Liber Necris, etc being reprinted is drastically lower.

>>47498063

Honestly I'd imagine that Skaven are already pretty damaged by Warpstone and that taking them away from it may not do much if anything.

>>47498094

To be fair, gold and gems are not exactly things unique to the Tomb Kings. Various 40k models use gold as spot color or as a large part of a model, the posterboy for the Stormcast is gold and blue, the Craftworld Eldar heavily feature gems on their models and the WD even mentioned that you could use it for stuff like Space Marine helmet lenses.

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>>47498445
I think most people want Empire Free Company as ratmen. Not sure how you'd achieve that other than by going Eilistraee and giving them a god who isn't evil for a heresy to occur.

>>47498094
Wait do they not sell ANY tombkings models anymore?

>>47498259
Outside of TW:WH Toddbringer and Franz never seemed to have all that huge a rivalry.

>>47498734

>Wait do they not sell ANY tombkings models anymore?

No

>>47498734
>Wait do they not sell ANY tombkings models anymore?
There's rumors there's be a new Tomb Kings-like faction given that an upcoming book features a Bone Giant in some form, since the writer leaked that info.

But generally speaking no. Whatever comes out will not be Tomb Kings, it will be overdesigned Age of Sigmar garbage that worships Nagash as a god.

>>47498734
>>47498989
They don't make Bretonnia models either.

>>47500304

Nagash is not automatically worshiped as a god in AoS.

The recent AoS lore for ghouls has some Ghoul Kings worshiping him while the vast majority hate or fear him and do their damnedest to put space between themselves and him. The reason why Nagash is so intent on discovering their primogenitor (Hinted or stated to be Ushoran) is because he believes Ushoran is the key to getting all ghouls to fall under his thrall.

Assuming GW makes new Tomb Kings and they're for the most part those that existed in Fantasy I could easily see a split between those who want nothing to do with Nagash and those who bend the knee because they believe he is their rightful ruler after defeating Settra in combat.

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>>47500667
Ugh, if they release Settra or Khalida or Apophas or whoever they want to bring back, it'll be another over-designed $80 kit.

Nito Settra. Snake construct Khalida. Apophas the size of a Titan.

>>47494814
They haven't done special characters (yet?). Would cause IP problems.

Look at how combined profiles work in the main rulebook though. I could see both proxied by vampire lords on big nasties. Nagash = Wizard Bloodline + Zombiedragon maybe.

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is this calculated as d% or literally 2d10?

>>47501461
>Nito Settra.
10/10, would buy

>>47496536
>>47496922
>>47497458
Rats are actually quite cooperative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOEC8WbONuU

>>47501515
in this case literally 2d10, starting characters are relatively weak, so having any given attribute around 30-ish is normal

I wish Vermintide had modding support. I love the characters, setting and atmosphere, but I dislike hack and slash gameplay. If I could, I would change the combat to make each Skaven more inclined to block and parry, give them more hitpoints and make fewer of them appear at once. I'd also make their attacks more lethal so that parrying, blocking and dodging are essential.

>>47502852
So... Skaven Dark Souls?

>>47502852
>I'd also make their attacks more lethal so that parrying, blocking and dodging are essential.

Are you playing Easy - Hard? If you get hit on cata you'll be down ~1/3 health.

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>>47502864
Yes, that's exactly what I want.

>>47501515

Startng character stats were X +2d10 with percentile dice used for tests

>>47502779

You could get +10 or even +15 with XP as part of your first career, and end-tier careers allowed you to go up to 30-40 compared to the base. Early on, you relied on getting the most bonuses and a bit of luck.

>>47502879
True, but the hack and slash horde element remains. That's why I said I'd make the Skaven stronger, smarter and fewer in number. I realize that's the whole point of the game, but it's not to my taste compared to something more strategic like Dark Souls.

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Hmm, this fellow, BranStark, from one of the pastebins linked in the OP who has all those 40k and Fantasy novels, is he gone?

>>47503332
he changed name: he goes under the one of epistolary now
https://kickass.unblocked.tv/user/Epistolary/uploads/

>>47504274

Cheers.

>unlocked

You're from the UK, I presume?

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>>47500304
>a Bone Giant in some form
NIPPON CONFIRMED.

>>47502758
Yeah, but the talk was about massive overpopulation, see behavioral sink.
(I love how the Calhoun's work with rats inspired the writing of NIMH.)

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Was Archaon right in destroying the world? Was it a dying and corrupt world not worth saving? Did the mortals races deserve to be freed from their suffering and their enslavement to hypocritical and fickle gods?

Was Archaon in the right?

>>47505672
The first edition of Warhammer Fantasy had a part in the book that said that after the polar gates breaking and letting loose Chaos; Chaos was destined to win no matter what the good guys did so Archaon had no choice in the matter. Chaos feeds on emotions so any form of living creature helps them (except the Lizardmen).

Total War: Warhammer should allow us to change this though.

>>47506285
>Total War: Warhammer should allow us to change this though.

I think you mean delay the end for another time.

>>47506500
You never know, the Lizardmen Great Plan failed. Maybe it could succeed and close the polar gates. Maybe the Orcs overwhelmed all opposition or maybe Sigmar returns and leads the Empire to destroy the Chaos.

In a just post Storm of Chaos scenario, what sort of mutual benefit could get Mallobaude and a skaven working together temporarily?

>>47505672
The dirty secret of the Warhammer universe is that human beings have more power over Chaos than Chaos has over them. "Gods", Chaos or otherwise, are a product of human consciousness. Chaos is elemental nothingness until human consciousness begins filling it up with dreams and nightmares. If humans could become aware of this power, they might be able to use it.

>>47505672
did Archaon ask them if they wanted to be free from gods?
Archaon is no better than these "hypocritical and fickle" gods who do whatever they want
regardless of what others want.
actually Archaon is even worse as in his hubris he doesn't even see this.

>>47506631
That can't be true, since Chaos was a big deal in Fantasy long before humans were numerous.

>>47506860
Time shenanigans. Chaos has no linear time.

The Chaos Gods were stated to have been the creation of mankind's subconsciousness and dreams in 6th ED Hordes of Chaos. Since the Old Ones created human, does that mean the Old Ones are the ones responsible for all the atrocities Chaos committed across reality?

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What if the Warhammer Fantasy timeline had advanced? Would there have been a French revolution style event in Bretonnia? Would the Empire have broken up like the Holy Roman Empire? Fantasy Napoleon?

>>47507052
>Would there have been a French revolution style event in Bretonnia
Serfs are literally designed to be stupid and weak so I doubt they would support a revolution,unless they would get some major vampire counts help

But Fantasy Napoleon would be great

>>47507483
isn't Grom the Paunch basically WHFB Napoleon?

>>47506917
>Time shenanigans. Chaos has no linear time.

Only in 40k.

>>47507052
If anything, the Empire is getting more united, not less. Ostland and Hochland probably were looking at absorption by Talabecland and Nordland post-Storm.

Bretonnia will never have a pleb revolution because the elf illuminati won't allow it.

>>47507721
And fantasy as well. Source Rise of the Horned Rat. Also in the Archaon novels where Archaon began and ended his quest in the same time. This is referenced in the Total War game where it's stated that time is meaningless in the Realm of Chaos.

What's your excuse for not knowing this?

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>>47507872
(picture related).

These threads are always field with guys who are racist towards Chaos. I have no idea why.

>>47507981
>>47507872
some people just want Chaos to be even blander than it's currently is

>>47507872
Sorry, End Times sources are only canon to Age of Sigmar.

>>47508027
Archaon novels are not End Times source.

There is also the Liber Chaotica where is mention of time shenanigans. Also the Chaos daemons army books.

Like I said, you guys are racist are against Chaos.

>>47508192
Where there is mention*

>>47508026
How is time shenanigans bland? The Chaos Realm was always stated to transcend time and physics right in the Daemon army books.

>>47508297
>>47508192
Let's change topic
Is there a possiblity to travel in time in warhammer?
Lore of Light has some mild time warps but is it enough?

>>47508383
>Is there a possiblity to travel in time in warhammer?

Yes.

Guys who get swallowed by the realm of Chaos, if they survive, appear hundreds of years later. It's possible but cannot be controlled.

There is also some extreme examples of time warping like what Be'lakor did to the warhammer timeline multiple times.

>>47508297
i meant lack of them is bland

>>47492342
no, it was not calrad
it was a knight from quenelles.

>>47505672
He didn't want to make the world a better place, that was made clear when he started throwing a tantrum in AoS and decided to break everyone's new toys in an autistic fit of rage.
He's just crawling in his armour, he was never right.

>>47508470
>like what Be'lakor did

Screamed? With rocks?

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Do we even know what Mallobaude looked like?

>>47508854
Did not happen. Be'lakor cannot walk out of the Warp without being summoned and he was already destroyed by Archaon within the same year. Also Be'lakor has no form or shape. You cannot hit him unless you have a magical weapon, lorewise.

Punks like Lizardmen cannot touch the Dark Master.

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>>47508931
SCREAMING

WITH

ROCKS

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>>47508931
>Punks like Lizardmen cannot touch the Dark Master
Unlike rocks.

>>47508951
>>47509049
Rocks cannot hit shadow, geeko. We already have proof that he cannot be there.

Get rekt, lizardfags. You think you can one up the Dark Master? Ha!

>>47508803
>>47508803
Actually, if you want to mention AoS lore, then you should know that initially Archaon had no interest in invading the mortal realms. He was content in doing his thing somewhere else in reality, exploring strange universes and then blowing them up.

The Chaos Gods came to him and told him that they will quit trying to kill him and they will once again name him their Everchosen if he leads their armies again. Argh was going to say "meh I'll pass" but they sweetened the deal by saying that everything he conquers in the mortal realms would belong to him and him alone. Archaon eventually agreed and took helm of the Chaos hordes and BTFO Sigmar and everyone. Hundreds of years later, Archaon has an plan that not even the Chaos Gods know of. It involves the mortal realms. Archaon might be plotting against the Chaos Gods...

Archaon isn't throwing a tantrum. He has a plan and it will catch everyone unawares. Like father, like son

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Like this

>>47509170
My vampire cunt has an entire skeleton band, and angry dooting is only one of their talents.

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Speaking about vampires, the Total War game raped Mannfred in their portray of them.

He acts like a thug. Sounds like a thug. Snarls and barks like an animal for no reason. That's not how Mannfred acts, that's bloody Konrad behaviour.

A complete raping of the suave, sexy voiced ruse master we know from WHFB and AoS.

>>47509263
>AoS

Not canon. And good for your argument, since ET/AoS Mannfred is a fucking retard who gets fucked more than a horny Shallyan nun in a battlefield clinic.

>>47509110
Sorry, Carnac, but all Be'lakor's Sue-ness couldn't save him from a barrage of rocks.

>>47507483
How would fantasy Napoleon beat the Grail Knights? Import imperial cannons and rifles? Just fuck them up with mass bows and trebuchets? Though the whole point of Knights is that they're pretty immune to anything considered "not chivalrous" and that's the only advantage the peasant revolution would have.

>>47509448
I don't care what you don't consider canon.

And Mannfred in 8th ED (which is what the Total war game based on), ET, and AoS continuously outplays everyone but eventually he is screwed by circumstance and bad karma.

If you get on his bad side, then a Bad End is in store for you. Just ask Lileath, Jarod, Be'lakor, and most importantly Nagash.

He is nobody's slave and he will burn the world to ash than submit to another.

Ok, so what are the black library books that are set in bretonnia, other than the one with mr Garamont

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>>47509616
Sorry, anon. I already told you. It's impossible for Be'lakor to be there.

You have no proof that he was there.

He was crowning Archaon in the same year (picture realated). Minutes after the crowning, Be'lakor and Archaon had their final fight where he was defeated and sent back to the Realm of Chaos.

This raises a problem.

A) Daemons that are sent back to the Waro via physical balance stay inside the Realm of Chaos for one year and a day

B) Be'lakor cannot exit the Realm of Chaos without a mortal summoning him. He cannot walk outside the Realm of Chaos otherwise.

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>>47509761
And here is the hyper dramatical Archaon vs Be'lakor final fight.

Read while listenint to appropriate music.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJUXO4wk42s

Warning. Major spoilers for the Archaon books.

>>47509263
nobody really cares for worst carstein though, he may as well be portrayed as a clanrat crossdressing as a vampire.

>>47509761
physical violence stay*

>>47488032

Here's an awesome moment I had.

>Play orcs
>Conqueror the tribes of the badlands and take out the dwarves
>Chaos invasion happens
>Mountains of black fire pass becomes like the Berlin wall
>North all turned into chaos supreme death hell, south all flooded with my green horde
>Full armys on both sides getting destroyed and more come to enter the fray
>Can't enter chaos land because of high attrition due to corrupted land
>They cannot enter due to massive hordes rising up all the time.
>Changer of ways shows up with an army
>GOBBO ACTUALLY ASSASINATES HIM SOME HOW
>Arcon shows up with all chosen ones
>Send Grimgore with all black orcs
>HYPED AS FUCK
>Stomp him but gud!
>Chaos dies and now the north is open and weak unable to stop the horde

WEZ DA GREENEST! UND DA MEANEST!

Best total war/10

>>47509761
>A) Daemons that are sent back to the Waro via physical balance stay inside the Realm of Chaos for one year and a day
Time flows bla bla, chaos bullshit

>B) Be'lakor cannot exit the Realm of Chaos without a mortal summoning him. He cannot walk outside the Realm of Chaos otherwise.
A breach actively pouring daemons without mortals' activity sounds deus ex machina enough to represent a way out for any trapped daemon

>>47509641
>I don't care what you don't consider canon.

Great, then Mannfred is perfectly represented as a complete idiot who gets used by a progressive chain of much smarter characters, a couple of whom he inconveniences in the most minor of ways.

>>47509951
>Time flows bla bla, chaos bullshit

A minute ago you said that was only in 40K and End Times lore saying time shenanigans can happen is not canon. How curious....

The year and 1 day is from the perspective if the material world. That's why you see daemons escaping into the Realm of Chaos rather than being destroyed. If daemons can use the time shenanigans of the Realm of Chaos to their advantage, then Soul Grinders wouldn't be a thing.

Even if we grant you that, you still have the huge hurdle of....

>A breach actively pouring daemons without mortals' activity sounds deus ex machina enough to represent a way out for any trapped daemon

Nope.

Be'lakor is explicitly said to not be able to manifest into mortal realm like other daemons do because the Chaos Gods by decree imprisoned him in the Realm of Chaos. His only way inside the mortal realm is to have a mortal invite him in.

Sorry, anon. Your whole thing is bust.

>>47510033
>A minute ago you said that was only in 40K and End Times lore saying time shenanigans can happen is not canon. How curious....

That was me, not him, and I only objected to the retarded 'Chaos gods retroactively exist because humans created them' 40kids fluff, which is not a thing in Warhammer Fantasy.

No, time does not flow in a linear fashion in the Realm of Chaos, but neither did humans have anything to do with creating the Ruinous Powers.

>>47509996
Nah.

Mannfred by careful politicking and rusing has influenced the setting and its characters greatly. Have you seen how he manipulated the dwarfs and the Elves before escaping with the Everchild?

Have you seen how he is more powerful in physical combat AND magical ability than Arkan?

>progressive chain of much smarter characters, a couple of whom he inconveniences in the most minor of ways.

You mean the guys who continuous underestimated him and continuous left him for dead only to have a dagger stuck in their backs?

>he inconveniences in the most minor of ways.

You mean each one got a bad end courtesy of Mannfred.

>>47510092
>No, time does not flow in a linear fashion in the Realm of Chaos, but neither did humans have anything to do with creating the Ruinous Powers.

Except It was stated in the 6th ED hordes (I hate repeating myself), that humanity created the Chaos Gods.

>>47510033
>My argument has been twisted into a pretzel and I haven't provided a single source, but let's keep at it with the Chaos wank

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>>47509887
How the hell did you stop your armies from dying to attrition? Kept fighting chaos stacks that came through?

I also had an amusing experience with the Changer

>Play Chaos
>Start with the Big A
>Finished with the North
>Get Sigvald the Husbando
>Start sacking and razing the fuck out of Kislev
>Utterly annihilate them
>Changer appears
>Oh shit didn't know that'd happen
>Run away from his double doom-stack
>Like an idiot, he splits his forces
>Thank you based awakened tribes for baiting him
>Wreck the weaker army with combined BA and Siggy
>Chase down the Changer
>Fight one battle
>I win but barely
>Changer survives
>Legs it
>Noooooo
>He runs into a allied tribe
>Tribe's army dies
>Oh man
>Attack the army
>It's literally the Changer alone
>He has nearly no health
>Kill him with Hellcannons
Thanks Chaos bros, I wouldn't have caught him otherwise

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Vlad, Arkan, Be'lakor, Nagash....

They all thought they were better than Mannfred. They all thought they can use him like a puppet for their schemes. He showed them. He sure showed them all.

He showed all that he is the best Carstein!

>>47510183
You

see

>>47509761
>>47509817
These are sources. And if you want the Be'lakor inability to manifest like other daemons, then it's in his battlescroll.

How do you know that you are dealing with a racist against Chaos?

When backed into a corner he spouts
>Not canon!
>Chaos wank!

Even when it doesn't make sense to use these words given the context.

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>>47510033
>A minute ago you said that was only in 40K and End Times lore saying time shenanigans can happen is not canon. How curious....
Technically I was not talking with you a minute ago, I'm not the same anon(s?)

Applying logic to chaos behavior is stupid, tho.

>Be'lakor is explicitly said to not be able to manifest into mortal realm like other daemons do because the Chaos Gods by decree imprisoned him in the Realm of Chaos. His only way inside the mortal realm is to have a mortal invite him in.
The point is: exceptions can exist, especially when chaos is involved, a portal like that could represent one of such cases, imagine if the daemon was trying to rule lawering its way out similarly to how malus did with the realm of the screaming god (I'm not sure about the name), perhaps he is not entering the mortal world but rather stepping in the chaos realm that flowed out of the portal, stupid or impossible you may say, but it's still chaos and it allows very little bounds.
Even archaon knows that he would have found a way out.

The discussion is moot anyway: the model was used to represent a standard daemon prince in a time when be'lakor was not even much active or relevant; the whole thing is the result of slann casting meme magic, it's a remain in play spell

>>47510269
>Applying logic to chaos behavior is stupid, tho.

And yet Chaos follows rules. Unbreakable rules like the rule of a true name and banishment.

By the way, the source for 1 year and one day is the Soul Grinder/Forge of Souls lore.

>The point is: exceptions can exist

Only in your world where you want to force the guy to be there when the fluff makes it impossible. The battlescroll says that the Chaos Gods only permitted Be'lakor to exit the Realm of Chaos normally when they wished it and that happened a grand total of 13 times. The ruined city was not the Realm of Chaos and he manifesting a body there would have broken the decree of the Chaos Gods and raped the lore.

Be'lakor only form of escape was tricking mortals into summoning him. That was his rule lawyering.

>Even archaon knows that he would have found a way out.

And know why that is? Because Archaon knows that Be'lakor has a thousand sons and daughters. And many more followers. Anyone one of them can summon him.

Then why bother replying

>>47502852
I'd love a Drachenfels with zombies and daemons instead of Skaven.

>>47504645
That is the single best monster in any mythology as far as I'm concerned.

Rumor is Kensei is making a model of one.

>>47510481
As someone with tinnitus, I fucking hate them.
Nah, they're cool.

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>>47508892

>>47510188
I did not enter their lands. They kept coming to me so I could kill them. You know the city's on the left and right side of black fire pass? On the hills? We fought there most of the time. Had to use the tunnel stance to get boyz up there

>>47510196
Then he got on his knees and begged Arkhan to tell Nagash he's sorry and he really wants to not be stuck in hell anymore in Age of Sigmar. Arkhan told him to fuck off.

The end.

>>47510582
That sounds like a perfect situation for Orcs
"Dese spikey boys jus' keep comin'! Iz perfect!"

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>>47510523
Maybe he's hiding in your house, eating your cereal when you're away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06X9qXTvKNQ

WHFB seems interesting, however GW has split up their units into so many smaller armies that I have no idea who the main forces are any more.

Any help?

>>47510716
Download the army book in the OP for what you want to get into. They list everything that was in that army, which you can then hunt for in their new really idiotic category system.

Or download the book in the OP that says Newbie Introduction and flip to the gallery of models starting on page 293. There's a handful that were added after that, but most of them were kind of mediocre.

Or you can ask us for specifics. What faction are you interested in? Do you want to play 6e, 7e, 8e, 9th Age, or a similar game like Kings of War with Warhammer models?

>>47510429
>Be'lakor only form of escape was tricking mortals into summoning him. That was his rule lawyering.
Technically speaking, the battlescroll doesn't say that it is the only way; it simply describes that way alone, on the other hand, it says be'lakor has wayS (plural) to extend its will on the world and what he truly seeks is to have a gateway provided, the mortal isn't really described as a requirement sine qua non.
The scroll also mentions that despite the 13 everchosen are the only times the gods willed him to manifest, it says the he always plotted to escape on its own.
Saying that "the gateway" can only be provided by humans, or that those ways to extend its will only limit to influencing humans wth wishpers is objectively wrong as the text isn't truly speaking in such absolutes.

>Yet once again, Be’lakor proved his guile, and found ways to stretch forth his will upon the mortal world. In his times of formlessness, he whispered through the dreams of madmen and warlords, offering his service if only they would summon him into the mortal realm. Too often, such men accepted Be’lakor’s promises, foolishly believing that they could control the Daemon Prince for their own ends. Once given a gateway to the mortal world, invariably Be’lakor slew his liberator, seized the fool’s followers as his own and set them to rebuilding the glories of his halcyon days.

>The ruined city was not the Realm of Chaos
the city of echoes was a portal, chaotic portals (especially the ones related to old ones tech as far as they have appeared in the fluff) not only allow winds to pour, but also the chaos realm itself to possibly stretch and override reality, see for example the portals at the poles or the one that made chaos manifest all over the world in the end times.

To say it is impossible for be'lakor to be there is simply, objectively, wrong with a fluff so open.

because the natural order dictates shadows to be found under rocks

>>47510607
Actually, Mannfred defeated Arkan in a magical duel and gave him a speech of "I, MANNFRED VON CARSTEIN, was already better than you". I don't remember Arkan's response but it was a mocking one. I think it was "Perhaps you are better but your base nature will always prove to be your undoing".

Then Nagash came and Mannfred whoop whooped out of there.

His latest scheme raising a HUGE army of the bones godliza sized beasts and countess greenkins and use it to usurp Nagash.

>>47510796
>His latest scheme raising a HUGE army of the bones godliza sized beasts and countess greenkins and use it to usurp Nagash.
Wasn't that his exact method of capturing Aliathra alongside Kemmler?

Is he really that unimaginative?

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>>47510642
The cereal is my housemate's so that's fine. I'm more worried about the skeletons inside humans.

>>47510795
>Technically speaking, the battlescroll doesn't say that it is the only way; it simply describes that way alone, on the other hand, it says be'lakor has wayS (plural) to extend its will on the world and what he truly seeks is to have a gateway provided, the mortal isn't really described as a requirement sine qua non.

It doesn't provided any other method provided. The whole plotting is him looking for fools to summon him in.

>the city of echoes was a portal, chaotic portals (especially the ones related to old ones tech as far as they have appeared in the fluff) not only allow winds to pour, but also the chaos realm itself to possibly stretch and override reality, see for example the portals at the poles or the one that made chaos manifest all over the world in the end times.

You mean like the Northern and Southern portals that have been there for thousands and have been spewing Chaos energies and winds of magic for as long as the setting existedand have transformed the northern and southern parts inti quasi Chaos Realms? If Be'lakor can simply walk from the gateway in the runied city, then Be'lakor would have walked outside these two portals ages ago and circumvented thousands of years of torment.

You just blew your argument apart.

>To say it is impossible for be'lakor to be there is simply, objectively, wrong with a fluff so open.

Not really

Har Har

>>47510822
It worked last time, didn't it?

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>>47510919
It only worked last time because Dwarfs and Elves hated each other too much to actually give chase as one army.
That problem doesn't exist in Age.

You know the meaning of insanity?

>>47510992
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvJsG4F2Img

So who makes good relatively cheap models of Amazon women? I'm thinking of making an Amazon Mordheim warband. Any suggestions?

>>47511023
http://freebooterminiatures.de/index.php/en/shop2-2/amazonen

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Tomb Kings when?

>>47510899
Shh, we have the pictures, everyone can see them, you're just making it harder for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsJl9BrGzEo

>>47511223
Those were fakes. If you read the Archaon novels, then you would know that the Changeling stole Be'lakor's form.

A fake, I tell you!

Games Workshop has no canon, their continuity is a fucking convoluted mess that they've repeatedly said can be taken as all true or none of it true so they don't have to unfuck it. The only purpose is to sell models, not tell any story.

You're all right and all wrong.

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I WANT FANTASY BACK I WANT FANTASY BACK I WANT FANTASY BACK

>>47511331
False.

If GW has no canon, then they wouldn't have been a damn about what Josh Reynolds said on his ask.gm.

But they did. They told him to shut up and to state that what he said his just his opinion and doesn't represent the canon of GW or BL.

GW made Josh Reynolds objectively wrong.

>>47511401
They told him to shut up because he was still talking about Warhammer Fantasy, when they want 100% of the focus on Age of Sigmar.

>>47511401
Objectively wrong. Games Workshop's official stance is that all of the fluff is told by an unreliable narrator, and is therefore true and false at the same time.

They told Josh to shut it because of a major breach in protocol regarding continuity. See: Alan Moore and DC Comics.

>>47511400
Never coming back. All we can do is kill Age of Sigmar, so that the undead don't destroy the legacy forged in life.

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>>47511484
>Objectively wrong.

No.

>Games Workshop's official stance is that all of the fluff is told by an unreliable narrator,

They did not. That's the unofficial statement of the previous head of BL on the BL forums.

Lets examine what does a current employee says on his own forum. Hmmm....he seems to disagree with you.

>>47511454
>when they want 100% of the focus on Age of Sigmar.

He was talking about AoS equally. The last questions were about AoS.

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>>47511562
Wrong picture

>>47511584
Funny, because it still reads like "We don't know what the fuck we're doing and have absolutely no plans beyond selling you one more thing."

So there is no continuity since they admit it doesn't matter, everything is subject to change and as a result there is only temporary canon.

>>47502758

Personally I was going off the fact that Warpstone is bad shit, wasn't saying that rats are naturally bad.

It's kind of funny that recent science can kind of make Skaven deeper than they appear since you could argue that part of why they are as they are is because of Warpstone and not simply being a race founded on stereotypes about rats.

>>47513369
There's also the fact that rats born in massive overpopulation surrounded by feces become mentally unstable for life.
Cannibalism, homosexuality, infanticide, even gathering into small "gangs" to start fights and kill other rats for seemingly no reason all occur.

Within two generations in a normal environment, the offspring of the mentally ill rats turn out fine.

Throw in Warpstone corruption to the mix and that Moulder might alter the natural reproductive process when they create those massive Broodmothers out of females and you have a legitimate theory that if you captured some Skaven males to harvest for semen and a Broodmother then successfully bred two generations of Skaven with no Warpstone or overpopulation exposure, they might end up being sane and a legitimate Order race.

Too bad Reynolds isn't allowed to answer questions anymore. It'd be a fun thing to ask. GW could always shut it down with "But Chaos Skaven would always assassinate and destroy them all before it could happen" if they wanted, maybe even sell more models in Age of Sigmar if people decide they want Order Skaven to go with their Stormcasts.

But then this is Games Workshop we're talking about, so good things are not allowed.

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>>47488032
>playing Empire
>Chaos is coming
>Sorceror spreading taint in my land.
>Okay, send someone to assassinate him.
>Fails
>Fuck, his level ain't high enough.
>Send Brightwizard to burn his ass
>Fail
>Witchhunter?
>Fail and wounded
>Fuck it.
>Detach Priest of Sigmar lvl 12 that was following Franz the entire campaign
>Still fucking fails

No wonder Chaos wins in End times. Order has can't find their ass with both hands.

>WH:TW
>Dwarfs
>spend a long time completely conquering the southern greenskins
>Just ran Grudgebearer and The Slayer King into the von Carsteins, winning Pyrrhic victories
>suddenly End Times approach
>two full stacks of northmen spawn and invade my coast
The apocalypse is coming

>Total War Warhammer orcs are absolute shit
>Their infantry cant beat the average dwarf
>Their ranged units get killed by all other ranged units
>Their cavalry are too slow and too weak to be of any use
>Dont have any good anti large units
Please educate me, how do orcs win in the tabletop. Because if its anything like TWW they should lose like 100% of the time.

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>>47515198
By muckin' about

>>47515198
Overwhelming numbers.

Yeah they're shit tier units. But there's a lot of them...

>>47515268
In TWW their numbers are average with everyone else, so I guess thats where everything goes wrong

Welp, time to double their troop numbers.

>>47515198
>cavalry too slow and too weak
They sure do have a lot of cavalry. Spider melee, spider ranged, boar melee. Savage orcs get super boar melee. I haven't played them yet though.

>>47505672

I think he is a bad character who was probably only created because 40k had Abaddon.

>>47506617

Maybe the Skaven could want something locked up in the same place where Nagash's staff was kept.

>>47509263

I didn't care for his voice when the trailer showing him came out.

>>47511401

Because what he was saying was always just his opinion that he was spinning for the benefit of fans.

Unless it's something like the HH, the GW and FW Design Studios have full reign to run roughshod over any BL book.

This a big part of why some people did not care for the End Times book BL put out, thry didn't square up at all with what was in the End Times books put out by GW. Perhaps if the latter were written in a historical fashion like FW writes their books, things would have meshed better, but the GW End Times books were not written like that.

So for anyone that's played to the end of TW's campaign: How do you think they'll fit in the new races? From what it sounds like, the expansion games will not only expand the game map, but also the story. Which begs the question how will they get introduced to the Warhammer World when advisor man is...you know.

>>47515371
They all suck in the game. The goblin units are so weak they cant even beat the archer units of other factions.

Boars are too slow to be shock cav, and are too weak to stick in a fight.

I really dont get where they were going with orcs ingame. There is something seriously missing in terms of balance.

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>>47515409
It wont expand the story, they will just add in more dimensions to it

>>47515385
>I think he is a bad character who was probably only created because 40k had Abaddon.
He was created to be an example of how far a Chaos character can go, so when you create your OC donut barbarian northman you have Archaon as your inspiration. Archaon was actually intended to die during the eventual End Times, used by everyone until he had nothing.

But GW got a megaboner for him and decided he had to be their Anakin Skywalker.

>>47515385
>This a big part of why some people did not care for the End Times book BL put out, thry didn't square up at all with what was in the End Times books put out by GW. Perhaps if the latter were written in a historical fashion like FW writes their books, things would have meshed better, but the GW End Times books were not written like that.
Pretty sure most people just hated End Times in general. That's why anytime you ask what kind of an alternative universe rather than End Times people would want, most people say "drop everything from End Times" and the minority say "keep Nagash coming back, drop everything else".

The only people who liked it are in the OTHER General thread.

>>47515385
>Unless it's something like the HH, the GW and FW Design Studios have full reign to run roughshod over any BL book.

That's not true.

And your example of the End Times novels happened due to time constraints and poor communication between parties within GW.

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>>47488426
Here's a shitty MS paint map I made. It's detailed at least

>>47515385
>I think he is a bad character who was probably only created because 40k had Abaddon.

I utterly disagree.

He is the most compelling villain WHFB ever had.

Nagash is a cartoon villain and also a women abuser and a pedophile.
Mannfred and Be'lakor, while being based are, not that different Nagash in their motives.

Archaon is unique in what he desires. Unlike his simplistic 40K counterparts who seeks power for power's sake and whose desire is mundane, Archaon drives and motives are not born out of greed or lust for power.Which is why daemons and gods do not understand him and cannot tempt him. Archaon goal was to bring about the end of the world and end the lie of Sigmar, he desired nothing else save for the burning desire to be saved. Yes, he wanted to be stopped. He wanted to be saved. Despite all that happened, a spark of light in him endured and raged at he he has become. And that makes him a better character than Abaddon who is 100% evil.

He is a tragic figure and an anti-hero. An orphan clad in the guise of a monster. A tainted fallen hero forced to walk the path of damnation. His story makes you pity him and relate to his struggle. It makes you wish that he will find the salvation that he yearns for and return to being the great hero he was before Chaos ruined him.

And AoS delivers by heavily hinting of a redemption Arc for Archaon. Why? Because everyone desires to be saved. Even ones steeped deep in blood and darkness like Archaon. That's deep, man.

>>47516795
Because everyone deserves to be saved*

>>47516436

I've seen nothing to suggest that anyone at GW really gave a shit about Archaon, if they did you'd think he would have cropped up a whole lot more.

Retconning Storm of Chaos was not because they liked Archaon, it was because all around they realized that the ball had been dropped and that overall it made for a shitty story. You do not hype up a character to be the biggest bad and send them the journey to end the world only for the result to be them slinking home with their tail between their legs, that is just piss poor writing.

Archaon's backstory and motivation are both dubious, that is why I said he reeks of being an excuse for Fantasy to have a counterpart to Abaddon, a special character who is the head of their faction with the backing of all the gods who the majority bend the knee to.

Even if he possibly only got a lot of lore within the past decade or so, Abaddon still has the understandable motivation of feeling liked he was betrayed by the Emperor and a desire to succeed where Horus had failed.

Archaon in contrast learns of some terrible secret and decides that trying to become the Everchosen is the best thing possible.

I'll admit that the books that portray him as some sort of nihilist was a better route for him, but I lean towards that really just being the author's interpretation of the character and not something GW had in mind. If it was then did a poor job of showing it in the End Times and in AoS where Archaon's entire character seemingly boils down to being most powerful Chaos guy, one of the most powerful characters in the setting, and having a hatred of Sigmar.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I haven't read enough. All I'll say is that between Abaddon and Archaon as portrayed by GW, I'd take Abaddon and I really don't care much for him in the first place.

>>47517316
>I've seen nothing to suggest that anyone at GW really gave a shit about Archaon, if they did you'd think he would have cropped up a whole lot more.
He's cropped up constantly since 7e ended.
>Retconning Storm of Chaos was not because they liked Archaon, it was because all around they realized that the ball had been dropped and that overall it made for a shitty story. You do not hype up a character to be the biggest bad and send them the journey to end the world only for the result to be them slinking home with their tail between their legs, that is just piss poor writing.
Why not? He lost, Chaos didn't.

Why can characters like Malekith lost when Archaon can't? Why is a villain only dangerous until he loses a battle?

>>47517316
>I'll admit that the books that portray him as some sort of nihilist was a better route for him, but I lean towards that really just being the author's interpretation of the character and not something GW had in mind. If it was then did a poor job of showing it in the End Times and in AoS where Archaon's entire character seemingly boils down to being most powerful Chaos guy, one of the most powerful characters in the setting, and having a hatred of Sigmar.
His original purpose was just "really powerful Chaos character". The guy who created him outright said he wasn't ever supposed to actually be shown winning, and any win would have him as just another faceless nobody who died so the Chaos Gods can have their fun.

>>47517469
>Why can characters like Malekith lose when Archaon can't?
Because Malekith's goal is petty in comparison. He just wants to rule, not destroy the world.
He fails, oh well he'll be back to try another plot.

>>47515411
Expendable units. That's their whole shtick.

What I do is use waves of units.

Goblins in front to absorb the initial impact of an attack(or to land the first blow), then hit their center with boyz and big uns while boar boys flank the sides. It's less out damaging and more scaring the enemy into running.

Range? Don't bother Orcs have terribad accuracy. Just use terror tactics with artillery like the Doom Diver. Let your expendable units soak up the fire while the divers whittle away at their ranged.

>>47517316
>f it was then did a poor job of showing it in the End Times and in AoS where Archaon's entire character seemingly boils down to being most powerful Chaos guy, one of the most powerful characters in the setting, and having a hatred of Sigmar.

Except the WDs and AoS heavily take from the Archaon novels. Such his name, his issue with Sigmar, and how he fell.

In a recent Codex Apocrypha (the fluff article written by STUDIO WRITAHS) states that Archaon's fall began when Sigmar did not answer his prayers. This is a direct reference to the novels.

In AoS, his true name, which was invented by the novels, will play a huge part in bringing him back from darkness. It's shown that he not a simple follower of Chaos but a wild card rebel against the Chaos Gods both an enemy and an ally to them. Also the whoke part about him hating what he became and desiring to turn away from Chaos. Again, inspired by the novels.

The whole issue here is that you refuse to accept what's in the novels. Ignoring it and then stating that Archaon has no motivation and has no character.

You are simply racist against Archaon. Just admit it.

>>47517938
That makes no sense. Even destroy the world types can lose and retreat to fight another day. They can be threatening up to a point.

Malekith kept losing and losing consistently in the fluff to the point that the fluff pulls no punches when it describes him as a complete failure. Malekith is a piss poor villain and a victim of GW's stagnant setting.

Archaon by default, even consider all his history, is better character because what he represents is change and the destruction of the status quo.

Malekith represents the status quo and stagnation.

>>47518161
Malekith also changed the world to match his whims. His planning broke the Dwarf-Elf alliance, lead to a war that exhausted both nations, all so he could have another shot at the throne. His creation of the Dark Elves lead to the necromancer Nagash gaining power when his people were stranded in his land. He is indirectly responsible for the creation of the Tomb Kings and Vampires.

Again, if he loses, he can go back and try again. He wins, the world keeps spinning.

Archaon wins, game over. Archaon loses, the Gods kill him, he ain't coming back.

>>47518225
>Archaon wins, game over. Archaon loses, the Gods kill him, he ain't coming back.

I don't think so. Look at Abaddon. The Chaos Gods won't kill their champion for losing. They give second chances.

>Malekith also changed the world to match his whims. His planning broke the Dwarf-Elf alliance, lead to a war that exhausted both nations, all so he could have another shot at the throne. His creation of the Dark Elves lead to the necromancer Nagash gaining power when his people were stranded in his land. He is indirectly responsible for the creation of the Tomb Kings and Vampires.

That's some stuff established before the modern era of the setting. Just backstory to set up the character. Now tell me in the modern era of the setting, how many of Malekith's invasions were successes? ZERO.

If WHFB was still a thing and somebody told you that GW is writing a new Malekith invasion what is the forgone conclusion? He will fail and he fail again. Malekith in WHFB can never win. No plots or planning will ever work.

>>47518303
>Look at Abaddon.
Abaddon wasn't the Everchosen, and there is no prophecy foretelling his supposed victory. Archaon has both.

Last person to carry the title of Everchosen was Asavar Kul. He died. The more the gods gift you, the more they expect results. If Archaon fails, it proves the prophecy is a hoax, the sham will weaken the Gods' hold on the tribes who will disperse into the Wastes to fight each other again. Archaon will have to be punished. They've punished followers with death for lesser slights.

> how many of Malekith's invasions were successes?
One. And that's all he needs.

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>The templar rocked slightly on his armoured knees. It was just him and the God-King, in the holiest place in all the Empire.

>‘You have forsaken me,’ Kastner hissed to himself, his dry lips pronouncing each word slowly within the confines of the hood. The templar looked up at the statue’s proud features. The statue gleamed its goldenness and from the low angle, Sigmar looked like a haughty and disdainful god. ‘I have lived a devout existence. Bettered myself with study, for your good grace. Trained to my limits and served you through the sword. I have honoured you. I have loved you. I have given you everything I have. Yet you have left me lost on a path to I know not where.’

>The templar was bathed in shafts of coloured light from the stained-glass window and felt his harsh whispers rise on the heat of the morning sun.

>‘I am no longer an instrument of your design,’ Kastner said. ‘A yardstick to measure the purity of others, a weapon for you to wield in punishment and a shield to protect your Empire from foes near and far. I am changing. I am changed. I know it. Circumstance has turned me from my purpose, in service of others unknown. Like the warped arrow, I fly untrue, yet hit the mark. I will not be a nothing in your eyes. A dog to be put down in the street. I am not an error. An aberration. I am not history to be re-written. I am not a mistake to be corrected. Speak to me, my lord. My Emperor-of-all. My God-King. Show my heart the way. Lead me back to your light and love. I did all in service of you. Like the arrow shaft, I can be softened and straightened. Like the imperfect blade, I can be re-forged. I beg of you, my lord. Find use for me again.’

>>47518372
>Abaddon wasn't the Everchosen, and there is no prophecy foretelling his supposed victory. Archaon has both.

Actually, Be'lakor and the Emperor among many others have prophecies of Abaddon's victory. His victory is made out to be a certainty.

Abaddon bares the Mark of Chaos Ascendant which is 40K's Everchosen.

>Last person to carry the title of Everchosen was Asavar Kul. He died. The more the gods gift you, the more they expect results. If Archaon fails, it proves the prophecy is a hoax, the sham will weaken the Gods' hold on the tribes who will disperse into the Wastes to fight each other again. Archaon will have to be punished. They've punished followers with death for lesser slights.

While Archaon lives, the prophecy lives on.

And how Kul died was presented as a mystery in the WoC army book.

>One. And that's all he needs.

Again, zero and will always be zero because GW choose stagnation for the setting. You cannot take Malekith seriously.

>>47518387
>Kastner rose to his feet. He felt sick to his stomach. His knees felt weak.

>‘Don’t leave me,’ Kastner pleaded with his lord, ‘the plaything of fate. Show me a sign – in this place of all places. Anything, curse you.’ But nothing came. Kastner’s lifetime of devotion and service was rewarded with the kind of monumental silence only a towering statue could deliver.

>‘You speak not,’ Kastner mouthed within the darkness of his helmet, ‘but I hear everything. Silence will be met with silence, God-King. Nothing so singularly personifies the prayer unanswered as a god powerless to save his people. So be it. You will watch your worshippers suffer and die – as I drag down your Empire into the embers of Armageddon. You will hear me then, God-King. You will hear me in the pleading prayers of your people, held under my blade. You will hear me in the ravenous fires – that will eat all you have lived to build. You will hear me in the deafening silence of the End Times, where I will leave your petty Empire no world left to conquer. Though half-blind, I see you for the fraud you have always been. The appealing ramblings of a mad friar. I renounce your false majesty – and will forge a path of my own making. I will champion my undoing and accept allegiance of those that already answer the hatred in my heart. I do this out of hatred for you, my lord. Out of hatred for all the fickle Powers of this world, who play at destiny with men’s souls. With darkness lies a new beginning, as with me lies the end of man and all godkind.’

This excerpt in the novel built Archaon as a character more than GW ever did to Abaddon in 20 years.

The picture above is from the "eWD116".

So I don't want you guys to tell me that the guy has no motivations.

>>47518445
They did with End Times. If you choose instead to count Storm of Chaos where Malekith did indeed have zero successes, then Archaon is just as guilty of stagnation because he accomplishes nothing.

>>47518467
I ain't saying he has no motivations. I'm saying he's a whiny little bitch on a power trip. Only difference between him and Malekith is that he isn't diddling his mom in the process.

>>47518499
You saying like you wouldn't diddle that mom yourself.

>>47518488
Going by what Gav had said, SoC wasn't meant to end the world.

It was suppose to shake up the setting and bring a new status quo. Archaon was figure they used to implement change to the setting via his invasion, not Malekith the Ever-Failure.

>>47518539
Except Morathi ain't my mom so it isn't as weird

>>47518568
You mean a new status quo the same way Abaddon's Black Crusade changed the status quo: Kinda sorta not really doing anything to the setting but you should totes believe he did something because it happened in lore for realsies?

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Wellp.

>>47518611
>You mean a new status quo the same way Abaddon's Black Crusade changed the status quo: Kinda sorta not really doing anything to the setting but you should totes believe he did something because it happened in lore for realsies?

Abaddon's Black Crusades doesn't change the status quo. They don't shake the setting at a fundamental level. They were raids and wars that achieve some objectives and flee back into the Eye of Terror.

The reason why SoC didn't have that much impact of the setting that GW wanted was because of the gaming results, So it's your guys fault for screwing it up. Archaon would have wrecked Middelheim and stuck his blade into the throat of the Empire allowing GW to write an interesting new status quo of a world on the brink of annihilation.

But no.

You have to ruin it and this eventually lead us to where we are now.

>>47518691
Middenheim*

How does painting/modelling make you feel? It oddly puts me at peace. I suppose I always like having something to do, but having a sprue, an exacto knife and some plastic glue always makes me feel like I'm accomplishing something, even if I waste a few hours trying to convert a single model because I can't fight the right kind of arm for it.

>>47518691
>They were raids and wars that achieve some objectives and flee back into the Eye of Terror.
Except they weren't. They were supposed to be a shot straight to Terra, each time biting further and slowly breaking Cadia. The last one was supposed to cripple Cadia and let Chaos had a clear line to Terra. Only they didn't but sorta did, and nothing really changed. At all.

You know that's what would have happened with SoC if it played out like intended.

>>47518915
>Except they weren't. They were supposed to be a shot straight to Terra, each time biting further and slowly breaking Cadia. The last one was supposed to cripple Cadia and let Chaos had a clear line to Terra. Only they didn't but sorta did, and nothing really changed. At all.

That's objectively wrong. Please open the 6th ED CSM codex and the Black Legion supplement and read them. Do not make me post 40K lore in this thread. Suffice to say, ONLY THE 13TH BLACK CRUSADE WAS ABOUT TAKING CADIA AND GOING TO TERRA. The rest of the 12th Crusades were about random objectives ranging from destroying random planets or acquiring artifacts.

>You know that's what would have happened with SoC if it played out like intended.

Tell me.

>>47518976
The Empire would have been 'crippled by the raging Storm of Chaos, left gutted, but still standing if only barely against the onslaught. But even so an ill wind is in the air as the Empire is still surrounded by myriad enemies posed to tear it apart.' or something like that.

Same units available to each faction, hero units would be unchanged, nothing substantial aside from some lore tidbits would be changed.

>>47518824
I feel roughly the same. It's not only relaxing but fulfilling as well. It's also a good way of just getting away from the world, with nothing but the brush and the not-thinned-enough paint existing.

>>47519315
Sounds about right. It's like I can only concentrate on what's directly in my hands. In no small part because I've sliced open my thumbs more than a few times and don't want to repeat it.

>>47518976
>ONLY THE 13TH BLACK CRUSADE WAS ABOUT TAKING CADIA AND GOING TO TERRA
That's the Black Crusade he's referring to you ninny, and the summer event that was focused on it ended with the exact same consequences as Storm of Chaos. Nothing, nothing ended up happening.

>>47519507
To be fair, some things did happen after SoC. Nothing game changing, but lore changing, specifically Bretonnia and the Empire becoming bros before hoes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrA4V6YF6SA This is what I felt happened after Bretonnia rode to the aid of their neighbour.

Still, it didn't help that Chaos got trounced like a baby with a plastic bag on its head.

>>47516455

I'm not sure where this stupid assumption that just because you like AoS means to have to like the End Times came from.

The End Times was a mixed bag and the people who won't admit that usually fall into the camps of being mad that Fantasy advanced at all (Particularly if they're up their own ass with headcanon) or the camp of being mad that it didn't entirely conform to stereotype. (Tyrion wasn't the good guy in Khaine, Malekith wasn't irredeemably evil, the world actually ended, etc.)

I'll also add that it was the End Times which seemingly got people somewhat interested in Fantasy again, something which every army book and the few supplements to come before had failed at.

>>47516499

Can you give me an example of when GW or FW have decided not to do something because it would contradict the detail in some random BL novel? Most BL novels are either incorporated or ignored and it's the latter which will be pushed aside.

>>47517469

>Why not? He lost, Chaos didn't.

Because by all accounts he isn't supposed to lose or at the very least is supposed to be in the favorable position of a stalemate. Anything else makes the stuff written before about him being the bestest and the gravest threat fall flat on its ass.

Malekith is actually a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. It's pretty laughable that he launched so many wars against Ulthuan and yet they never seem to amount to much. It's like the meme about Abaddon being a failure because there have been multiple Black Crusades. The difference is however that not every Black Crusade at the same goal whereas the goal of every war Malekith launched was seemingly to conquer Ulthuan.

Like an Anon above said, Malekith is a pretty good example of the negatives of status quo and stagnation.

>>47519507
"They were supposed to be a shot straight to Terra, each time biting further and slowly breaking Cadia"

"THEY" as in "PLURAL" as in "CRUSADES". That anon thought that 12 Fucking crusades were about going after Terra and Cadia despite having 20 FUCKING YEARS OF LORE saying otherwise.

And you moron couldn't read what was being argued.

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>>47520010
This isn't 40k General, just saiyan.

>>47520017
>Get blown out
>It's not a 40K general

Then don't don't jump into a conversation that does not concern you and you don't understand. The 40K talk was only used a s a comparison and it ended a while ago until you studiedly tried to restart it.

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>>47520082
>>used as a comparison
>>ended a while ago
>>actually less than 10 minutes before

>>47520134
10 minutes is a plenty in 4chan time doe.

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>>47520144
Barely. Threads are responded to when hours have passed.

>>47520144
>10 minutes is a plenty in 4chan time doe.
Depends on the board. Some boards have weeks old threads. And /tg/ isn't exactly the most neck breaking high-speed place.

>>47517496

Well then GW really fucked up their handling of him somewhere along the way.

When it comes to Chaos it seems like they drop the ball as far Undivided characters with a few exceptions and even some of them like Lorgar and Perturabo are more about sympathy or what the character did before Chaos.

Of course that isn't to say all god aligned characters are winners either, Scyla for example just seems to serve as an example of how Chaos can go wrong for even promising champions.

>>47518611

Some kind of change is perhaps better than none at all.

Really it seems things would have been better off if Archaon was just retconned into being a bigger threat than Kul, but not the Lord of the End Times. That way he can actually die and the setting can move beyond him.

>>47519076

Some heroes could have died and allowed for new ones to step up. Fantasy already has ookabooka characters who are dead in the lore.

What books did BL publish about bretonnia?

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>>47515453
MAKE TILEA AND ESTALIA THEIR CANON SIZES CA YOU FUCKS.

AND THEN GIVE ME DOGS OF WAR.

>>47507483
>Serfs are literally designed to be stupid and weak so I doubt they would support a revolution

not without some kind of jacobin analogous organization

there's lots of agitators in the empire, remember

>>47521025
The Bretonnian Knight series, which is pretty grim.

Starts with Knight Errant and runs through to Grail Knight

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>>47520310
>Lorgar and Perturabo
>Undivided

Pick one.

>Really it seems things would have been better off if Archaon was just retconned into being a bigger threat than Kul, but not the Lord of the End Times. That way he can actually die and the setting can move beyond him.

Then nobody would give a fuck about him. He would be random Chaos loser number 13. Dies and gets forgotten.

GW wanted him to be a memorable character.

Why does every Chaos-involved individual ever want to ascend to daemonhood? What's so appealing about being an immortal slave with no hope of freedom?

>>47522325
Immortality and godlike power.

They are slaves to the gods but the leash is a very long one. The Chaos Gods indulge their daemons and allow to do anything they want to the point of rebellion.

You are a slave to the Chaos Gods, anyways. Your soul belongs to them already. You might as well try to get some benefits.

Jesus Christ literally everything is wrong with Age of Sigmar.

But it's even worse than I thought. I read up on the lore of Age of Sigmar, which I initially thought was just the remnants of the Old World staging a rebellion, instead no, it's actually the planet blowing up and then magic space anime bullshit happens and I actually can't even fucking tell what the hell is going on.

I should just play Kings of War.

>>47521545
other than that.
There was one about a vampire chick and a book where a knight gets lost in the wood elf forest

>>47510188
Raiding stance

>>47519919
>I'm not sure where this stupid assumption that just because you like AoS means to have to like the End Times came from.
Because ET story was more close to AoS, in fact it was AoS-prequel, than WHFB.
>Fantasy advanced
Top fucking kek.
>'ll also add that it was the End Times which seemingly got people somewhat interested in Fantasy again
Well yeah, because they closed Fantasy.

>>47519919
>I'll also add that it was the End Times which seemingly got people somewhat interested in Fantasy again
I'd say it was more the return of Nagash that got people interested in Fantasy again, and GW squandered that quickly.

Very few people believed GW was going to kill the setting. They thought it was at most going to be a return to the old summer campaigns.

>>47522197
>GW wanted him to be a memorable character
Important, not memorable.

>>47519919
this got a lot of people interested in WHFB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i4d3ignBNQ&index=47&list=PL7l8yJHLU_BEBjvRXGIItWPop4kvp1QJP

>>47523612
>Very few people believed GW was going to kill the setting
>End Times

>>47516795
GAAAAAAAAAAAAY

My god the game is so good i cum every time

too bad fucking skaelings are spoiling my fun now that i'm starting to confederate the provinces

>>47516795
>Implying: the postening

nice fanfic bruh

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>>47524400
Oh, you're just "racist against Chaos".

>>47522325
It's an "easy" path for power, chaotics have no sense of freedom anyway.

But not all guys want to be daemons: once you become a daemon you're more bound to the chaos realm than the mortal one and your true name can fuck you up, some chaotics, despite probably having all rights of becoming daemon princes are still mortal and one could think it's because they (or their gods) prefer to keep themselves more active on the world.

>>47517316
>for a shitty story.
Because setting wasn't destroyed?

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Chaos is fucking boring and represents the ultimate stagnation, the end of the setting.
Best used only in small doses.

But instead GW masturbates it with one hand no matter who the other hand is working on, which killed the best tabletop game setting and created the worst.

Has anyone built an Empire army using historical figures? Or have a link to one that is?

Looking for some inspiration for my next project.

>>47527418
>Chaos is fucking boring

I disagree. If it's presented as a manifestation of mankind's psychic demons, it's interesting.

If it's just Chaos Warriors though then I agree it's boring.

>>47527496
Perry miniatures probably one of the best choice. + Spanish manufactures for characters (Gamezone, Avatars of War etc).

Since Total Warhammer came out I've been on a Fantasy kick. Is the Mordheim game on Steam good? I've never played the tabletop so I don't know much about it

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>>47527496
I am currently building a Nuln fluffy list using mostly historical figures and scratch built artillery. I was tempted to buy Perry's european mercenaries set for my state troopers, but later realized the Warlord's Pike and Shotte swedish infantry set was more cost effective because it came with two command groups, one metal and one plastic. They also looked more modern looking, wich I liked for my nulnites. I applied some greenstuff to make the shields and the plumes, and it was ready, two units of up to 20 pikes each and 20 handgunners.

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>>47528261
Here is the whole army minus the handgunners. The only problem I have with the models is the slightly smaller scale of the historical figures, but they work OK ranking up. Currently I am lacking cavalry, so I think I will buy the mounted men at arms set from Perry.

>>47528129
>Is the Mordheim game on Steam good?
It's alright. Gets repetitive quickly and the AI team composition is always a mirror of your own (if you bring 1 hero, 1 leader and 3 henchmen then that's exactly what the AI will bring) and it gets stupid bonuses to make up for its stupidity though.

>>47524400
Find anywhere in my post that it's a fanfic. You can't because it's all taken from the lore itself.

I am really sick of your racism against Chaos, anon.

>>47528938
It's actually about ethics in wargaming.
#Archaongate

>>47522395
Preaching to the choir, bro. Try posting the same thing in /aosg/.

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>>47522197

>Pick one.

Nah, I'll pick both. Both Lorgar and Perturabo are more important and popular characters than Belakor who was just added to 40k.

>Then nobody would give a fuck about him. He would be random Chaos loser number 13. Dies and gets forgotten.

Doesn't seem much different from now to be honest.

>>47522325

It's really the power and immortality. Most probably aren't even aware that the deal is rigged in the gods' favor, don't care because of their devotion, or view it better than the alternative.

>>47522395

There is no wrong with anime.

The setting of AoS honestly seems to draw more from the Realm of Chaos than anything.

>>47523620

Maybe the setting, but not the game.

Is anyone using Radious for Total War: Warhammer? I've heard...alot of mixed things about it. Do you think the mod improves the game?

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ELF

ASS

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>>47530761
>Radious
Just don't.

>>47516795
>Nagash is a cartoon villain and also a women abuser and a pedophile.

What? Seriously, what?

>>47528938
Not him, but most of your post is actually personal interpretation rather than outright canon.
>He is the most compelling villain WHFB ever had.
Opinion, subjectively wrong.
>Nagash is a cartoon villain and also a women abuser and a pedophile.
Nagash is exactly as much of a cartoon villain as Chaos, continually suffering setbacks and always coming back stronger as eventuality. Also, Archaon is an abuser of women considering he literally butchered most of mankind. The "pedophile" argument fails when you're considering Nagash is from the equivalent of our BCs, where a concept as "too young" didn't really exist as long as they weren't a toddler.
>Mannfred and Be'lakor, while being based are, not that different Nagash in their motives.
How? Be'lakor has no goal other than "destroy everything because EVUL" and Mannfred was out to prove he was better than his own father, something that's subjectively more interesting and relatable than Archaon's Columbine motivations.

>Archaon is unique in what he desires. Unlike his simplistic 40K counterparts who seeks power for power's sake and whose desire is mundane, Archaon drives and motives are not born out of greed or lust for power.Which is why daemons and gods do not understand him and cannot tempt him. Archaon goal was to bring about the end of the world and end the lie of Sigmar, he desired nothing else save for the burning desire to be saved.
Objectively wrong, canon says he has become the embodiment of vengeance. There's good deep down in him, but that's not Archaon. That's a fragment of Arthas Menethil.

>>47534147
>Yes, he wanted to be stopped. He wanted to be saved.
Pulled that out of your ass. That's not true.
>Despite all that happened, a spark of light in him endured and raged at he he has become. And that makes him a better character than Abaddon who is 100% evil.
No, being a tortured soul does not make you more interesting than 100% evil. Anakin Skywalker in the prequels proved that it can be a massive detriment.

>He is a tragic figure and an anti-hero.

FUCK NO. An anti-hero has to actually be a hero, Archaon at no point has EVER done a single heroic action. An anti-hero achieves good through questionable or evil methods, Archaon only achieves evil through evil.
>An orphan clad in the guise of a monster. A tainted fallen hero forced to walk the path of damnation. His story makes you pity him and relate to his struggle. It makes you wish that he will find the salvation that he yearns for and return to being the great hero he was before Chaos ruined him.
Yeah, no. There's nothing relatable in Archaon. He suffered the same miseries that most humans in Warhammer do, the only difference is he was trapped in Groundhog Day by a character even more 2-dimensional than himself.
>And AoS delivers by heavily hinting of a redemption Arc for Archaon. Why? Because everyone desires to be saved. Even ones steeped deep in blood and darkness like Archaon. That's deep, man.
Yeah...he doesn't deserve to be saved. He's gone beyond redemption, at this point anything they do is a major asspull. He deserves his place alongside Judas, Cassius, and Brutus in the mouth of Lucifer.

There is no legitimate redemption for Archaon. Not only within the Warhammer universe where redemption does not exist, but even within Christian faith he's literally beyond redemption as quite literally worse than the devil, since his entire shtick is rebelling against the powers that be because CRAWWWWWLING IIIIIIN MY SKIIIIIIN.

>>47534071
Nagash, as the firstborn of the Pharaoh, was given to the Mortuary Cult to become a priest.

His younger brother became Pharaoh instead, as per Nehekharan custom.

Nagash hated not being king and lusted over his brother's wife.

After torturing some Dark Elves for magical secrets, which he was supposed to mummify as trophies for his brother's tomb, he created Necromancy to fully channel the Wind of Death and took control with an army of the undead. He killed his brother's wife to raise as his undead waifu.

Its important to remember these are literally ancient Egyptians though, the age difference is negligible. Afterall, Caesar was fucking Cleopatra before she had her first pube when he wasn't fucking his adopted son.

>>47534170
>but even within Christian faith he's literally beyond redemption
Unless he repents on his death bed.

>>47523612

>I'd say it was more the return of Nagash that got people interested in Fantasy again

Which was part of the End Times.

It has been said before but people opinions only began to sour after Khaine was released because it was actual change to the status quo and not an old character getting brought back or a significant portion of the Empire dying to disease.

>>47527350

No, because you don't build a character up and fail to follow through. There are at the least two easy ways to change Archaon's story, either dial him back to where him getting killed feels plausible or have him setup camp in Middenheim.

>>47534071

Nagash is kind of cartoonish, at the very least he isn't original.

The other stuff probably comes from the Time of Legends books where he covets his brother's sort of underage wife and hints at sadistic tendencies while thinking about her. Maybe there is stuff he does afterwords but I never finished reading the book because of the disconnects it showed with the 8th Edition TK army book such as the Ushabti being humans empowered by the Nehekharen pantheon and not constructs shaped to look like the gods and inhabited by the spirits of suitable warriors.

>>47534170

>since his entire shtick is rebelling against the powers that be because CRAWWWWWLING IIIIIIN MY SKIIIIIIN.

Eh, if the great secret he learned was what was hinted in the Liber Chaotica and elsewhere, that most of the Fantasy gods have their origins with the Chaos gods, I can kind of buy the going mad and on a destructive rampage bit.

Hello /wfg/, Total War got me interested in the lore of WHFB and I've decided I want to read some books related to the franchise.

I currently have my eye on the Genevieve novels and I was wondering if they're a good place to start.

If so, where's the best place to buy them?

>>47520134
Seems like the Tomatoe has been redpilled.

He's not wrong.

>>47534147
>Opinion, subjectively wrong.

Never said it was objective fact.

>Nagash is exactly as much of a cartoon villain as Chaos, continually suffering setbacks and always coming back stronger as eventuality. Also, Archaon is an abuser of women considering he literally butchered most of mankind. The "pedophile" argument fails when you're considering Nagash is from the equivalent of our BCs, where a concept as "too young" didn't really exist as long as they weren't a toddler.

The abuser of women and pedo thing were jokes, you idiot.

And what makes Archaon not a cartoon character is that he doesn't suffer continuous setbacks and his character is well written and not a jackass who just wants power.

>How? Be'lakor has no goal other than "destroy everything because EVUL"

Wrong, he wants to regain his power and become the Everchosen.

>Mannfred

Examine his speech in "Lord of the End Times".

He wanted power and still does.

>Objectively wrong, canon says he has become the embodiment of vengeance. There's good deep down in him, but that's not Archaon. That's a fragment of Arthas Menethil.

Wrong, that's your flawed misreading. The novels has the dark and good in him struggling against each other until the dark, thanks to Be'lakor, finally wins out.

>Pulled that out of your ass. That's not true.

You are an asshole you know.

Archaon novel 1

Archaon novel 2

And lord of the End Times.

Every single one of them had Archaon wanting to be saved.

>FUCK NO. An anti-hero has to actually be a hero, Archaon at no point has EVER done a single heroic action. An anti-hero achieves good through questionable or evil methods, Archaon only achieves evil through evil.

Wrong.

He was called an Anti-hero in the ads for the novels because what he desire is ultimately good but in a twisted way. He wanted to free people from Chaos and end their suffering.

>>47534675
>If so, where's the best place to buy them
Just download them.

>>47535343
I really don't like digital copies of books anon.

>>47534563
>it was actual change to the status quo
Yeah of course, destruction of 3 factions was very interesting changes.Grand Alliance is such great idea... for Age of Sigmar general, not for WHFB.
>No, because you don't build a character up and fail to follow through.
Why? Archaon isn't sacred cow.
>There are at the least two easy ways to change Archaon's story, either dial him back to where him getting killed feels plausible or have him setup camp in Middenheim.
Oh yeah, another "five minutes before the end" ending.

>>47535331
Yeah, no. There's nothing relatable in Archaon. He suffered the same miseries that most humans in Warhammer do, the only difference is he was trapped in Groundhog Day by a character even more 2-dimensional than himself.

See >>47518387
>>47518467

His whole struggle and his abandonment by his god and everyone he ever trusted is pretty relatable.

Nobody in warammer universe suffered as much as Archaon. The fact you say said means you haven't read the novel. Archaon's world was turned upside down, he cast out of the Empire and its gods who tried continuously to kill and, abandoned by his god to the forces of darkness.

>Yeah...he doesn't deserve to be saved. He's gone beyond redemption, at this point anything they do is a major asspull. He deserves his place alongside Judas, Cassius, and Brutus in the mouth of Lucifer.

You don't get to decide who gets to saved. Only GAWD, Sigmar in the warhammer universe, gets to decide who gets to be saved. And Archaon needs to be saving. Lets not forget it was Sigmar's fault that created Archaon in the first place.

It will be the greatest defeat to Chaos to have their Everchosen brought back to the light as a champion of justice that he was always meant to be. Stop your Chaos wanking.

So everything I said is supported by fluff that you didn't read.

>Not only within the Warhammer universe where redemption does not exist

It exists.

The Everqueen redeemed an exalted champion of Slaanesh in the novels, and in the End Times she purged the taint of Chaos from the Hellebron.

In AoS, Sigmar is grabbing the souls of Chaos champions and putting them on trial. If they have some good in them, then they will be redeemed and reborn as Stormcast. If not, they he destroys their souls forever.

A Nurglite genocidal cretin had his soul taken and redeemed that way by Sigmar. There is no one above redemption but redemption doesn't mean that they don't get to atone for their sins.

>>47535382
Smells like bait, but okay, try to look at E-bay.