Pathfinder General - /pfg/ What did you not save your frien

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Why did Pathfinder raise the Appraise DC to identify a common item from 12 (as it was in 3.5) to a staggering 20?

How effective are wild shaped focused druids? Always kinda wanted to play one and just cast shit and tear shit up as a giant animal.

>>47262615
Because fuck everybody that's why. Why is a GP worth a goat?

>>47262615
BECAUSE MARTIALS CAN TOUCH THEMSELVES AT WILL.

>>47262623

Wild shape is definitely strong enough to be a character's main shtick, but since it only comes online at level 5 (where most campaigns never reach or are about to end), it's like not having a shtick at all.

I wouldn't recommend it unless the game is intending to go through the level5-12 sweetspot.

>>47262623
Quite. The big problem is that you'll be pretty squishy until you can afford wild armor.

>>47262645
The game is starting out at level 5.

>>47262649
I figured i'd be a little soft early on.

What mods do you run a game with, GMs and players? (all classes, monsters, blah blah from any product)
Or wish you had in the game?

>>47262654
Any build recommendations? I'm considering a wild shape druid too.

>>47262682
Pure Druid, take natural spell or w/e it is that allows you cast well wild shaped.
You really can't go wrong from there.
If you want more specific advice you need to tell us what you want to do with your druid.

Just had a bit of PvP in tonight's session. So I wonder what the repercussions might be

>>47262821
>storie tyme?

If we're starting at level 5, and I am a druid who will be a spell druid, what sort of spells should I look out for?

>>47262848

Essentially the group psychopath decided to go on a murder/kidnapping spree and got caught.

And since the rest of the group hated the character we threw him under the bus and the city's ruler had us fight him in an arena

>>47262671
I wish I could run PoW, or even just ToB, but I took over a group that is just a bunch of first-time roleplayers and had already made their characters.

>>47262931
Just rum their game as is and offer them as options for the next one, once they know the system better.

Can you help me settle an arguement? Is School Savant Arcanist better or Exploter Wizard

>>47262992
School Savant there is no contest. Exploiter wizard is literally a worse Arcanist with slightly faster spell progression.

>>47262931
Maybe introduce them to some of the mechanics of PoW (you should start them off early) and saying it'll make everything more fun

>>47262992
Wizard is better at least 25-47% of the time, depending on what's the level range for the game.

>>47263019
See, that's what I was saying, but they just think "Exploiter does everything Arcanist does but better!"
Maybe base Arcanist, but not School Savant

>>47263034
Five and upwards

>>47263046
Exploiter wizard loses school, and familiar for less exploits then an arcanist gets, base arcanist can get both those for a single exploit, granted school is a little neutered, but also exploiter wizard loses the primary means to regen spell points, also they lose sorcerer casting which has such insane versatility tied to it.

>>47263068
I'll definitely point this shit out, thanks

While we're on the subject of Arcanists, is it better for Intelligence/Charisma builds, or just Intelligence given 7-13 cha makes no difference?

>>47262992
Getting spell levels a level late feels like shit. You're weaksauce compared to the big boys in your party roughly half the time. School Savant Arcanist is better than Exploiter Wizard sometimes, but pretty much always worse than just being a normal wizard.

>>47263187
Oh like it even matters that hard.

>>47263187
>access to every spell you have in your book for a resource and a full round action.

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How many goblins, goblin dogs, and goblindog riders should I put against 5 lvl 8 unoptomized players? (Rogue, sorcerer, druid, ranger, and an "optimized" monk)

>>47263227
Its a scrub cructh, a properly prepared wizard doesnt need it.

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>>47262590
>implying I have friends

>>47263439
>Translation: Schrödinger's Wizard

>>47263442
Well obviously not anymore, because you didn't save them.

>>47263439
A properly prepared wizard has empty slots to fill later (maybe with Fast Study), and there's little appreciable difference between preparing a spell as a full-round action or with a 1-15 minutes.

>>47263452
Its not our fault if textbook wizard play is too hard for you.

>>47263187
You're weaksauce 40% of the time. The other 60%, you shit on their face while drinking from crystal chalices fill with their delicious tears.

>>47263526
And 'weaksauce' is by wizard definition.

IE: The most skewed definition in the game.

>>47262640
But touching yourself at will is the ability of Enchanting Courtesan, a spellcasting PrC.
Thus, martials can't do that.

>>47263260
Look up Tucker's Kobolds, recreate that with goblins.

What, exactly, makes a Wizard so much better than an Arcanist?

>>47263631
Nothing. Shitters are just used to the class.

>>47263631
And where does Witch stand with those two?

>>47263439
>Its a scrub cructh, a properly prepared wizard doesnt need it.
So in other words it is bad because... there is no reason? It is more options for sorceror spell progression, also the ability to just prepare one of each spell gives you a lot more versatility then a wizard, then you have shit like counter spell as an immediate rather then a fucking readied action.
Wizard has nothing on Arcanist scrub, spells one level, or counter spells as an immediate, access to basically your whole spell book, a lot more versatility.

>>47263641
Quick study is generally one of those things that are useful for out of combat. In that case empty utility slot + quick study usualy does the trick.

And you might say its viable for in combat but only the most forgiving of GMs will let you get away with that shit. Move action to pull out your book, full round action to swap spells 1 round later, then move action to put your book away again later. You are literally putting your book in so much danger.

>>47263678
It makes targeting your book that much easier, as WELL as actually making it a bigger weakness.

Normally, a wizard losing his book still has all his spells, he just can't prepare new ones.

If you're leaving slots open, that's that many slots you've lost if someone does attack your book.

>>47263260

Depends, do you give the goblins class levels? If not, you may want to adapt the mob rules from 3.5. You could go for something like Tucker's Kobolds, but kobolds are portrayed as cunning, trap-loving gits. Goblins - expecially Golarion goblins - aren't that much into planning and make do with recklessness and overkill.

I'd say that if you want a more typical Paizo goblin experience, go for lots of fire hazards.

>>47263678
>You are literally putting your book in so much danger.
There are spells to keep it safe, hell nothing keeps you from putting protection on it.
Also who only keeps one spellbook?
Also if you are worried about your spellbook in combat, why not have a combat spellbook that you put permanent invisibility on, and use see invisibility to read from?
Also if you are in a position where your spell book is at risk from you pulling it out, you have generally fucked up anyways.

>>47263678
Familiar
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>>47262992
My money is on exploiter for faster spell progression and better support (spell mastery, flexible wizardry, pearl of power is cheaper than runestone)

>>47263816
You can use pearl of powers in a limited capacity with Arcanist since you can expend spell slots to cast spells equal to your cha modifier times a day, you can also use a ring of wizardry to technically prepare more spells and get access to a greater variety of spells.

>>47263834
Could you elaborate more about pearl of power on Arcanist? Which exploit is that?

>>47263863
Pearl of power is the wondrous item that gives you extra spells. Since arcanist only prepares his spontaneous slots for the day they are ineligible for this and must rely on runestones of power which costs twice as much.

>>47263863
Arcanists are prepared, not spontaneous

>>47263888
They cast spontaneously, they just change their 'known' spells per day.

Has anyone taken a look at the Yojimbo from the Armor Master's Handbook? From what I hear, it looks promising - I have been meaning to try a bodyguard character and I was curious to see how it works (the other option was a Witchguard ranger or going for the Ulfen Guard PrC).

>>47263863
It isnt an exploit it is a class feature.
>Consume Spells (Su)

>At 1st level, an arcanist can expend an available arcanist spell slot as a move action, making it unavailable for the rest of the day, just as if she had used it to cast a spell. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). Doing this adds a number of points to her arcane reservoir equal to the level of the spell slot consumed. She cannot consume cantrips (0 level spells) in this way. Points gained in excess of the reservoir's maximum are lost.
I must have remembered it wrong I thought it cast the spell, it does not, but you can still get spell points then use the pearl to get the slot back.
Either way, it is over all a very strong class, with a lot of options and is probably the most versatile spell caster in the book.

>>47263888
They are both.
Prepared for what they have access to, spontaneous for how they cast.
That is why it is a wizard/sorc hybrid (which is also why it is a stupid powerful class)

Is there anything from stopping you from putting a bag of holding in a Cabalist or Warlock vigilante's tattoo chamber? Seems like one of the most secure, secretive, reliable storage methods in the game to me.

>>47263904
Read the wording on wizard spellcasting.
When a wizard expends a spell the spell he prepared is consumed which the pearl of power by its wording also fuels. Arcanists on the other hand prepare their slots but cast spontaneously from a daily allotment and do not use up the spell they prepared after casting. RAW its runestone of power.

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If we they just gave us back Uncanny Forethought this whole "Arcanist" problem would go away :^)

>>47263957
Well you can spend a feat to get a slot you can use to cast anything. I think it was in Ultimate Intrigue?

>>47263957
Although as written, that feat doesn't work for wizards, since they don't 'know' spells.

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>>47263957

>>47263978
Sounds cool. Any hints on the name at all?

>>47264015
Ah, here it is. Not quite 'cast anything from this', but you can prepare a spell into it as a Standard action.

Brilliant Spell Preparation.

>>47263991
It's basically a game assumption that the term "know" means "has in his spellbook" for prepared arcane casters. Wizard, Magus, Arcanist, and even Eldritch Scoundrel make reference to them "learning" and "knowing" spells.
>A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.

>>47264076
Except in a number of other places, 'Known' is specifically used in reference to spontaneous spellcasters.

Lets say I took toughness at levle 1 and later took levels in monk of sacred mountain that grants the toughness bonus feat.

Do I instantly get an opportunity to saw out my earlier toughness feat or what?

>>47264100
Wizard-targeted feats probably don't number among them.

>>47264117
Except nothing about that feat specifically says wizard. Just int 17 and spell mastery.

>>47264125
So we're in agreement then. Eldritch Scoundrels do not get any additional spells upon level-up, and Wizards, Arcanists and Maguses just have bizarre redundant text relating to other classes entirely in every one of their class descriptions. Glad we had this discussion anon.

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>GMed Rise of the Runelords.
>Is actually enjoyable.
>Decide to GM Shattered Star.
De fuark is this unpalatable waster?

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Going to be starting a Gestalt game pretty soon, looking at starting level 6 with standard WBL etc. I'm still relatively unfamiliar to the balance and strength of classes in PF, as I was mostly a 3.5 kind of guy.

What are some good combinations of classes for gestalt that come online fairly early (I don't see this game going very far) and are fun to play? fun means not a shitload of bookkeeping or a combo of passive buffs and "i hit it with my axe"

>>47264154
What's Shattered Star about and why's it an unpalatable waster?

>>47264154

I am generally a fan of Paizo APs. Shattered Star... I did not get. I think it is meant to appeal to people who are really into the Pathfinders as an org and like dungeon crawling.

>>47264161
the passive buffs+ 'i hit it with my axe' is to keep the gestalt from strangling itself with action economy.

I played a unchained monk-inquisitor and the swift action thing was annoying as hell, especially considering mythic stuff and other fancy things want to be swifts.

>>47264154
Best thing to do with those ones is play them one after the other, take either your RotRL characters (Now working out of the reclaimed ruins of Xin) as PCs, or as the Mentors of the new PCs sending them on missions and shit rather than the Pathfinder organization.

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>>47264171
Shattered Star was the "main thematic AP" of 2012, the tenth anniversary of Paizo.
It was intended to be a sequel to all the Varisian APs published in the company's first years: Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne and Second Darkness.
Since there was executive meddling it was forced to be a dungeon crawl heavy one.
The result is a motherfucking disaster.

>>47264194

Why is dungeon crawling bad?

Was it the execution?

Can you give some funny examples or something?

So I'm about to join my first AP campaign as a rogue and I've been studying trap DCs to make sure I'm up to scrath.

Apparently the percep/disable device DCs for traps are DC 20~25 for the simplest CR 1 traps.

Now as a rogue I get percep as a class skill which puts me at +6 including trapfinding from level 1 with 12 wis, disable device is also a similar DC but slightly easier to achive since raising dex is encouraged for rogues.

How exactly do I make this ridiculous DCs that expect you to roll at least 14 or better?
Do all rogues take skill focus at level 1 or something?

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>>47264231
Dungeon Crawl is a very weak storytelling tool, except for Second Darkness, Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne were very heavy narrative APs in which the consequences at their conclusion are nation scope changing.
One issue dedicated to dungeon crawl will had been welcome but the main plot: the recovery of the seven pieces which constituted the "imperial crown" of First-King Xin demanded a multi-scenario campaign as its predecessors were.
The best "funny" example is The Nightmare Rift, the scenario is the archeological excavation site belonging to an ancient commercial embassy which was located inside the lands of Shalast. The excavation is performed by slaved giants at the service of an ancient blue dragoness obsessed with thassilonian culture.
The sting is that this commercial embassy/trading post was intended for deals with the Denizens of Leng and the main foreman became a worshiper of Nyarlathotep at some point after the collapse of Shalast.
The "funny" part is that some cosmic horror monsters, like flying polyps, are strip of their ethos and turn into just another high-level mook to slay while the chance to explore the Plateau of Leng turns to be just "background paint".

hey quick question. how does a summoner eidolon work? every level you get more evo points to augment it but can you swap older stuff around? Say I spend some points to give it a tail and a sting then later on want flying, could i refund the tail and sting and get wings when i level up? or is it set in stone?

>>47264301
Read the fucking eidolon page again you lazy retard

>>47264301
You can swap everything around except the base form by default iirc.

>>47264291

Trap DC scaling is sort of BS at low levels, sadly, so you best hope there aren't many of the buggers (if it is about Mummy's Mask, well, no point hoping). You may see the same DCs for a CR1 trap and on a CR 5 trap. Now, A lot of races give you a +2 to perception, and I personally am okay with taking a SF (perception) on some characters considering how much it is rolled. If you know there is a trap there, you can try to jam it or just leave it be for now. If you do know it is there, none of these are an option and it does not matter how high your Disable Device is. Remember, though, that if you are not in combat and want to check a door or a wall, you can take 20.

BTW, are you playing a core rogue or an unchained rogue? Please tell me it is the latter :) . The core rogue was generally considered so bad that several other similar classes outdo it at its core job - investigators, detective or archeologist bards, some rangers and alchemists...

>>47264291
Everyone in the party should help you do the perception check. So that is around 4 roll (and hopefully one of them is a WIS base class). Later on, you can get magic item that increase perception like Eyes of the eagle and bracer of falcon aim (+8 total)

You can take 10 on disabling trap.

>>47262682
The druid that can turn into oozes. Wild shape into a carnivorous crystal ooze, and vital strike for 14d8 damage.

>>47264415
They can't turn into ooze until level 10 though

>>47264399
I'll be honest and say I'm actually a vivisectionist alchemist. right now I'm level 1 and have 2 extracts/day. I'll probably use my early mutagens to give a bonus to dex to improve my odds at disabling shit. Really, I'm hoping I get lucky for the first three levels till I get craft wondrous item and begin churning out boro beads so I have tears to wine, perceive cues and Aram zey's focus available on demand.

>>47264415
Yeah! 14d8! That's really good!

Oh wait, you're a caster. Just disable them permanently, and use a summon.

>>47264460
> Alchemist
> Craft Wondrous Item at level 3
Nice house rule brah

>>47264161
Oracle/Paladin.
Be the half elf oracle archetype, take scion of war feat for cha to initiative. Take any of the oracle recelations that let you use cha for reflex and ac. Dump dex.

Be fabulous.

one time i used commune with birds and i bribed them with a couple dozen pounds of bird feed to fly into the royal dining hall during an event and start shitting everywhere

>>47264460
Alchemists can't take craft wondrous item because they aren't technically casters.

>>47264464
Why not do both?

>>47264521
Brutal, I guess I'll take the master craftsman feat tax and take it at 7 then.

Hey /pfg/

I'm feeling the urge to make a short PrC for the Darkwraiths from Dark Souls.

I'm thinking something short, 3 levels, or 5 at absolute most.

My stumbling block is 'what does the Dark Hand/Art of Lifedrain actually do in a mechanical sense?'

Tell me your thoughts.

>>47264734
Something like vampiric touch as a spell like ability usable a number of times per day, refreshed if you kill someone with it. Maybe rider effects like being stunned/dazed/sickened for one round on a failed save as you get more levels.

>>47264770
I was pondering usage, and I was wondering if a grapple check might be appropriate. Considering that a Darkwraith needs to actually GRAB the person, not just touch them, and you can't use it on bigger things.

If it were a grapple check, then there'd be less impact to making it unlimited-use.

My biggest question is that the Art of Lifedrain should probably have some kind of... personal benefit beyond just hp recovery. The sort of thing that could drive a person to use it even if they aren't being wounded at all.

>>47264791
Tieing it to grapple would be good, depending on wording it might stop abuse via conductive weapons etc

Perhaps using the ability can let you use their knowledge check for a roll, increase your ability score, or grant other boons.

>>47264809
Conductive explicitly requires touch attacks, so a grapple check sods it handily.

How's it sound if you start off able to do con damage, and then at level 3, the 'capstone' of the PrC is the ability to deal Drain instead, or one Negative Level?

Then for the bonus... Hm. I kind of want it to scale up with the strength of the target, since I was thinking for the Red Eye Orb, they get the ability to essentially view the HD of people around them. A method to find their targets, in other words.

>>47264894
Actually, scratch that. Drain from level 1, not damage. Wouldn't want someone to be able to easily just drain a party member and them get over it with a Lesser Restoration.

>>47264460

Vivisectionist is cool. If you plan on moonlighting as a rogue,you may even consider the rogue VMC. Alchemists aren't so rich on feats, but there are some nice things there, especially if your DM does not mind the SA damage stacking.

Anyway, there are some good extracts for trapfinding, though to get really good at it it helps to be a cryptbreaker. Sadly, it does not work with vivisectionist. Trap Breaker does, but it isn't so great otherwise, losing all poison abilities (it was intended as a torchbearer archetype).

>>47264894
>How's it sound if you start off able to do con damage, and then at level 3, the 'capstone' of the PrC is the ability to deal Drain instead, or one Negative Level?
Is this meant for PCs or NPCs? Because the vast majority of the time, it doesn't make any difference whether the PCs deal ability damage or ability drain, unless the target happens to be immune to one but not the other(and I'm not even sure if that's a thing). The enemies aren't going to have chance of healing it anyway.

>>47264909
I'm still perpetually amused by the fact that you can have Cryptbreaker, Trap Breaker, Alchemical Trapper, and a Rogue VMC all can work in concert to give an Alchemist trapfinding FOUR times.

>>47264918
Hm. Yeah. Drain from the get-go then, I think. Since Restoration to clear drain is only 100gp of diamond dust, and the earliest you could get your first Darkwraith level is 6, and Restoration is gotten at 7...

Yeah. Drain it is then. Then the option of a negative level instead for the capstone.

>>47264909
Unfortunately I also took beastmorph for mutagen buffs so I'm down to relying on extracts and magic items to get the job done.

>>47264909
Ok so I ran the numbers a little and without buffs (which the alchemist can provide for himself) and before tools and I think the alchemist isnt so far behind from the rogue.

>Lvl 1 rogue with 18 dex,12 wis and trapfinding
+9 Disable device +6 Percep
>Lvl 1 alchemist with 14 dex and 12 wis
+6 Disable device (+8 w/ mutagen)+5 percep
>Rogue gets to level 3 but trap finding wont be scaling till lvl 4
>+11 Disable device, +8 Perception
>Alchemist gets his tumor familiar online which grants alertness and acts as an assistant via aid another.
>+10 Disable device (+12 with mutagen), +11 Alertness

Eventually the alchemist will have enough resources that he can afford to use extracts that boost these skills to the point where the gap is closed even further. Much later the party wizard will eventually achieve godhood and most traps will be bypassed and the rogue will be mostly obsolete while science-man will still be able to contribute to the group in other ways or at the very least be one less warm body to worry about buffing.

Is there any way to get extra AoOs that is NOT combat reflexes, or that's based off of Str?

>>47265742
Intruder's End and it's 9th level version both add your Initiation modifier in bonus attacks of opportunity. One of the paladin oaths adds Cha to AoOs at level 11.

>>47264415
>carnivorous crystal ooze
>medium
>7d8 slam
What the fuck.

>>47263638
>And where does Witch stand with those two?
Rolling on floor cackling.

Rewriting Ravenous Curse for Oracle in my game, GM decided on the following.

You can only go one day without food before you begin to starve. You must consume blood or blood-rich organs on a daily basis or you begin to starve,however, you are immune to the sickened and nauseated conditions add your curse level to all saves involving ingested toxins, poisons, potions, or any other substance that would cause you harm.

At 5th level, you gain a primary bite attack that deals damage for a creature of your size (ld6 for a Medium character, ld4 for Small). You have the grab ability; if you hit with this bite, you deal normal damage and attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. You receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple. You gain the swallow whole ability; the AC of your stomach is 10 +1/2 your natural armor bonus (if any) +your Charisma modifier, and it has hit points of 20% of your total. Any target of your Swallow Whole ability is regurgitated 2d4 rounds later on your turn automatically.

At 10th level, you learn heroes' feast as a 5th level spell, though you are unable to benefit from it.

At 15th level, your swallow whole ability allows you to swallow opponents up to your own size.
How does this look to you guys?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/oracle-curses

linked original page for comparison.

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>>47264415
>>47265916
I always wanted to try a Cave Druid in a mythic game, just to get Partial Transformation.
>You have refined control over your transformation ability. When using wild shape, you can expend one use of mythic power to only partially transform into or out of animal form. For example, you could transform your hands into tiger claws and your head into a tiger's head (giving you low-light vision and scent, and allowing you to make claw and bite attacks but still wear armor and use worn magic items normally), transform into a deinonychus with human hands (allowing you to still manipulate objects and wear rings), or transform into a constrictor snake with a humanoid head (allowing you to speak and cast spells with verbal components). You may make one such change per round as a free action for the duration of that use of wild shape. For example, if you change into a tiger, this ability allows you to partially transform yourself from tiger form to your normal form and back as needed until the duration ends or you fully return to your normal form. You must have the wild shape class feature to select this ability.

I wanna play a carnivorous crystal girl and have that 7d8 slam and those immunities while still being humanoid for all other purposes!

>>47262992
You can just take collegiate initiate and be a god.

Does bloodline development for arcanist sound good or is it just me? Especially if taking arcane bloodline.

Would anybody have a screencap of the Blood Hexes from magic tactics toolbox?

I remember there apparently being one or two good ones in there.

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>>47266250
I've got you.

>>47262590
>that feel when no pet peacat
What ever happened to that mad genetics researcher who used to post here? I've got a job for him!

>>47266274
Thanks. Seems I was remembering wrongly, only the Abeyance one is really any good towards the high end.

Wait ok since alchemists dont technically have caster levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats.

Does this also mean that alchemists are ineligible for improved familiar?

>>47266274
Oh, so someone at Paizo bought Bloodborne, did they?

>>47266274
Wow, those are shit.

Sup /pfg/

I'm a big fat noob and my first character was a witch. Currently she's level 4, soon to be 5 and I was wondering about some stuff.

I obviously am going to get the flight hex, because it seems amazing, but how does flying and casting work exactly? I was arguing with a guy that I play with, cause in the spell it says you don't have to concentrate while flying, which lead me to believe you don't have to take concentration checks, but he says I do.

Any help bros?

>>47266510
You don't.

It acts as the fly spell, which does not require concentration.

He's just mad that you can ruin everything in your path.

Also, check out Slumber Hex, if you haven't already.

>>47266510
He's wrong.

>>47266592
>>47266594
Thanks guys

Also >>47266592 I already did, slumber ruins days!

I have another question, if I am flying via hex, then land, can I freely (by this I mean, as a move action) fly again?

Also when do you take checks with the spell fly?

>>47266615
You can fly as long as the spell lasts.

I think it goes in minute increments.

>>47266663
generally only in rough winds, or if you are not moving.

>>47265916
>>47266007
Wait, what about Magic Jar. Carnivorous Crystal Oozes aren't immune to that, which means you can feasibly go for the entire vital strike tree (or at least up to improved) for 21d8/28d8 damage.

Plus there's the Craft Ooze feat, so you can make a body for yourself whenever you want.

If you make your character a human Vivisectionist you can even take racial heritage (ogre) and qualify for Savage Critical for even more dice per attack.

Holy shit, he is arguing now that it means you don't have to concentrate on the flying spell, not that you dont have to concentrate on casting while flying?

He's also impossible to argue with, such a wanker.

Oh man, the Harbinger's maneuvers recovery is pretty bad, huh?

Is aurora soul decent?

>>47266916
He is factually wrong.

Also, it doesnt matter what his opinion is, unless he's the GM.

If he is, bring the books out and show that he's wrong, if he denies it further, find a better GM.

>>47266916
Well, you don't have to concentrate ON THAT SPELL.

You DO have to concentrate on OTHER SPELLS which you cast while flying.

>>47266916
>>47266940
I'm vaguely confident he's actually right.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magic.html

"Vigorous motion" is a DC10+Spell level concentration check, and it goes up from there. I believe it can be argued that flitting about while flying is vigorous motion. There is also the fly checks to not fall on your fucking face.

>>47266937
It's actually super good. I played my Ravenlord for the first time last night, and between Grasp of Darkness + Claim and my party murdering folks, I was recovering 2-6 maneuvers pretty much every round.

Aurora Soul is okay, but you'd probably be better off as a Steelfist Commando Warlord if you want to be punchan mans.

>>47266955
But I don't have to take a concentration check to cast my spell, correct?

>>47266977
On Fly itself? If it doesn't say you do, or it specifically says you don't, then no.

>>47266959
Oh sorry, I meant it might be bad because my DM wants to host a boss hunting campaign, so I thought it might be bad. Also what's grasp of darkness?

Also I don't really like warlord. No idea why.

>>47266989
Sorry, I should be more specific.

If I am flying, due to the spell fly, I don't have to take concentration checks on my spells that I cast after that, right? As in, I want to cast cure light wounds on myself, while flying, I can do that?

So I've become interested in the Vigilante, and their absurd modularity and strength tickles all the right places. However, I'm curious. If I picked a spell casting archetype and took the Double time+Social Grace combo, it says any skill I take Social Graces with only takes 4 hours... Does this mean if I take Craft wondrous and a valet familiar, I'm now able to craft magic items 4 times as fast as normal, as long as I'm in my social guise? I don't have all the spells required, but eating a few -5 penalties is hardly an issue of you take an int-based caster archetype.

why the fuck does the warlock retain the startling/frightening/stunning appearance abilities? They could have gotten swapped out for things that actually make the mystic bolts worthwhile.

>>47267006
For the fly spell itself, no.

For other spells that you cast while flying, you would have to make concentration checks as-normal for them, barring circumstances where Fly SPECIFICALLY says that you do not.

For example, if you are flying and cast fireball, but someone readied an attack to shoot you with an arrow and it hit you, you WOULD need to make a concentration check for the fireball due to the arrow.

>>47267011
Double-time specifies MUNDANE uses, so no.

Couple of questions regarding PoW.
a) Can you activate a boost and a strike in the same turn?
b) Does having stances take up slots as a readied maneuvers or known maneuvers?
c) Can you use strikes with thrown weapons?

Thanks for answering.

>>47267041
a) yes
b) no
c) depends on the strike

>>47267006
Not beyond things that would require you to make a concentration check, no. If you're flying you might be more vulnerable to "Violent Weather", but it's not going to suddenly force you to make concentration checks as soon as you start flying for no reason.

>>47267041
a) Yes
b) Neither, they follow a separate progression
c) Depends on the specific maneuver and the wording it uses. Many of them specify they only work on melee attacks.

So I'm going to be in a campaign pretty soon in which the party starts at level 1, but has 10 mythic ranks.

I will be playing a Collegiate Initiate Arcanist, because everyone is playing Hybrid Classes and I have never played an Arcanist or Mythic before.

How can I make the most out of my Mythic stuff?

Can someone post djezet skin page pls?

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>>47267083
Got you senpai

>>47266663
Look at fly skill. You meed to check when you are moving less than half speed and hover

>>47264171

Because you need to write half again each books worth of actual plot and story for even the most murderhobo players to feel invested in it.

They filled up all the space they needed to actually explain why getting the all powerful Macguffin was significant, with more tedious unimaginative rooms full of 3 round combat kill-able mooks.

>>47267125
Yes I understand that, I just mean about concentration checks for casting a spell while flying.

>>47267137

Also suffers from fluff incoherence by implicitly assuming all the players want to be part of the pathfinders, or are already part of the pathfinders. While at the same time wanting them to be locals with strong local ties.

If they were going to be trainee pathfinders they would have needed to be in Absalom for years, not Magnimar.

Soon as players start asking 'why the hell should we care about the pathfinders' your pretty much done with that AP as its written.

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So just how good is the piercing thunder discipline?

How good is it for a zweihander sentinel?

>>47264464
If your character is failing saves then it means you have done something wrong. I haven't built a martial in years that doesn't outpace save DCs easily.

I can't remember the last time I had a character fail a save.

>>47267403
its shit

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Medic has been updated. Check the existing doc.

>>47267634
What's been changed about it, if you were to give the Cliffnotes version?

About to play a one-shot game as a barbarian. Level five, not really expecting to level up, and I'm using the Invulnerable Rager archetype, so the fifth level in barbarian only gets me +1 BAB. I can get that from a level dip into another class, so if I go barbarian 4, what would be some good ideas for the dip? Fighter's my current fallback, but I'm open to suggestions.

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>>47267634
>that pic
You have no power here

>>47267682
Forgot to add, Paizo content only, no third party.

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>>47267674
> Triage hit point healing lowered at low and mid levels.
> Expertise gained at 1st (x2), 2nd and even levels. Expertise prerequisites changed to match.
> Cura te Ipsum comes online at level 3
> Resuscitation comes online at 9th level
> New class feature Greater Resuscitation added at 17th level.
> Base Medic starts with Tempest Gale instead of Piercing Thunder. Ambu-lancer trades Tempest Gale for Piercing Thunder.
> Archetype trades have been altered to match new scaling for Expertise and other class features.
> Sanguinist gets level instead of BAB for GUS progression.
> Blood Transfusion's extra damage mechanic clarified.
> Sanguinist now trades Cura te ipsum for new feature: Pain's gain.
> Unnatural vitality's wording has been fixed to prevent abuse and maintain status as DPR booster.
> Witch doctor's Thaumaturgic Medicine has been rescaled to go from 1-9th level spells instead of a custom list of 1-6. New list includes all healing spells plus a whitelist of additional spells detailed in the entry.
> Plague doctor feat has been altered to be less finnicky.

>>47266999
Grasp of Darkness is a feat that lets you claim 3 targets at a time, instead of 1, and recover 2 maneuvers when you claim targets, instead of 1. It's pretty amazing. But if you're going to be fighting mostly solo bosses hint: dissuade your DM from this, single bosses are almost NEVER good fights for a full group then yeah, Harbinger's maneuver recovery is kind of rough.

Aurora Fist Mystic isn't BAD at all, it's just the Steelfist Commando is better at the punchan mans shtick.

>>47267682
You could go Fighter and get an extra feat to work with.

>>47267403
It's not bad.

>>47267593
Maybe if you expected something like Primal Fury ie: poorly balanced shit that is DO DPR without anything fun or interesting in it, but not otherwise.

>>47267634
>>47267731
On it.

>>47267682
Alchemist, maybe? Rage + mutagen = fun times. That and you get a few extracts you can use.

>>47267403

Replace Golden Lion with Elemental Flux.

Congrats, you're Ornstein.

The "sweet spot" in terms of tiers is 3-4, right?

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>>47267856
Considering his armor's appearance, this is a somewhat-ironic change.
>>47267858
Yes, but you or a party can have fun with any tier of class if the rest of the party and the GM have accounted for the differences in power-levels. Generally speaking however, a party will have the smoothest ride by everyone being within a tier of each other, and being T3-4 builds.

>>47267891
>Considering his armor's appearance, this is a somewhat-ironic change.

Well, there's not really a lot he does besides Elemental Flux and Piercing Thunder, so you could hypothetically change any of them.

Personally, I'd probably replace Iron Tortoise with Elemental Flux; Ornstein just isn't the type who throws his spear, and at least with Golden Lion you keep the whole, "he's wearing golden lion armor" thing.

>>47267731
Mmm, I'm not sure how I feel about this. It's a pretty significant nerf to their healing ability, but at least you can get more expertise choices. There are quite a few fun options on that list, so I guess I can consider that a wash.

I'm a little salty about Resuscitation getting pushed back a level, but I honestly have no idea when spellcasters get their equivalent, so whatever.

This isn't in regards to the update, but as far as Angel of Mercy goes, I'm still not really clear why Aura of Protection is a thing. Protection vs. Evil is really only "prevents summoned creatures from attacking you" at that level, and seems like a pretty mediocre trade for an expertise.

I haven't really looked into the other archetypes much, so I can't really comment on them.

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>>47267891
I consider t2-3 working the best, and even t1-3 being acceptable.

Granted, this is mostly because hey having casters is a good idea, but it's not so much about party imbalance, but rather every party member being proficient and capable in most situations to have the most fun.

>>47267891
>Considering his armor's appearance, this is a somewhat-ironic change.
I was literally just about to post this.

>Generally speaking however, a party will have the smoothest ride by everyone being within a tier of each other, and being T3-4 builds.
This. In all fairness, if you have a couple of tier 1 dudes that don't hog the spotlight then it can end up alright. It requires some self-awareness and self-control to achieve that, though.

>>47267940
Breath of life is what resuscitation is based on and compared to. It's a 5th level spell, which is acquired at 9th (character) level for clerics.

>>47268014
That's fair, then. I was actually expecting bigger changes, so I'm still pretty happy with the Medic overall.

>>47267634
Where's the doc for it?

>>47268067
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fkVJcjXIEZiZj_vpumo_8qy0TZfQl2hZ-tKV4rLnxLM/edit

>>47268014
So it's a strictly better version of Breath of Life, as a swift action or full round action for an AoE, with movement, limited on a per-encounter basis with more uses than an actual caster with Breath of Life.

>>47268160
Yes, problem? It means spellcasters can prepare actually interesting spells, instead of devoting spell slots to it.

Healers should be good at this kind of shit innately, and then have other options that let them do other things.

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>tfw playing a werebat skinwalker arcanist

Are the bat shape feats worth taking? And do they look like pic related when they morph or more humanoid?

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>Roll alchemist for reign of winter
>Realize that I'll later get access to mummification
>Realize that I'll be immune to cold in a cold themed campaign

>>47267759
Mmm, that's my current idea. Thinking of a reach weapon/Combat Reflexes/Unexpected Strike setup. Considered taking Step Up And Strike for maximum get-the-fuck-back-here, but that's three feats in itself. Even with a dip in Fighter, I still couldn't get Power Attack.

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>>47267634
yay

>>47267975
>This. In all fairness, if you have a couple of tier 1 dudes that don't hog the spotlight then it can end up alright.
I usually achieve that with Tier 1s simply because I have no idea how to make them tier 1 worthy.
If I'm caster then I'm a Witch, because I actually know what the fuck they're meant to do turn-to-turn. Everyone's always pointing out save-or-lose spells as OP but I can never get the save DC high enough. Hexes, on the other hand, I like (and are usually debuffs and not insta-wins).

>>47268396
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Winter Witches get an ability that lets them bypass Cold immunity/resistance. Still works against some stuff though, like the frostwurms.

>>47268316
>casters can prepares actually interesting spells
>medic is an initiator
???

>>47268570
Medic gets to prepare maneuvers that let him do fun things, while his other class features provide all the healing, condition removal and reviving shit.

Clerics are boring as fuck because they have to spend most of their spells on that kind of defensive shit, and have hardly any fun spell beyond that.

Vitalists can at least swap out their powers per day, letting them choose new and interesting powers as needed.

do antipalaidns have any obvious weaknesses that can be abused?

>>47268915
Paladins.

>>47268915
They are terrible assholes who tend to ruin parties because they either can't stop fucking with everyone, or other folks in the party can't stop flipping their shit about the antipaladin existing.

>>47268915
Being evil.

>>47268985
well its not in the party. its a fairly important political npc. pretty sure shes a few levels higher than us and nothing but antipaladin. not exactly sure what she's doing put she punches people for like 50+damage. i think mostly negative energy damage.

any exploitable weaknesses in the class would be extremely useful.

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>>47268968
>implying antis can't stop the shit out of normie paladins
The damnation feats completely flipped the table on that game, man. One to make you immune to detect evil and possibly to smite, a second lets you inflict frighten instead of shaken (to go with your cancel-fear-immunity aura). Add Cornugon Smash, and you win basically every fight with a paladin by default.

And that's before your objectively superior companion or the hilarity of bestow-insanity ToC come into it.

>>47269028
Nothing, really. Antipaladins have all the same bonuses as Paladins do, except for being able to heal themselves. So they're not quite as hard to kill, but they still have good HP, AC, saves and damage.

How do I best do the ice queen thing?

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>>47267634
Why in the flying fuck is the "dedicated MUNDANE healer dude" getting even MORE (Su) and (Sp) abilities than before?

Shit, the fucking class intro says
>While everyone would love the opportunity to receive the healing magics of the great churches, genius alchemists or noble paladins, the service of such heroes is a rare and valuable thing. Not everyone can afford the cost of such potent magics. For the rest of the world, natural healers great and small service those who are in need of care. On the battlefield, where wounds, disease and death run rampant, the ones who answer this call are known as medics.

I mad.

>>47268435
If you're allowed stuff from the as of yet unreleased books you could just get the training quality added to your weapon(it costs a +1 bonus and gives you any combat feat, it cannot be used for prerequisites though and you have to qualify to use it normally)

>>47269114
1) Those tags are almost irrelevant
2) They're VERY lategame abilities where the Medic is effectively fucking magically good at making people not dead
3) Seriously, you're a fag

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http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/auditory-hallucination

What are the best uses of this spell in a campaign that visits towns and cities only very infrequently?

>>47269174
>1) Those tags are almost irrelevant
"Sorry, you can't be a good mundane medic in the Mana Wastes."

>2) They're VERY lategame abilities where the Medic is effectively fucking magically good at making people not dead
Guardian of Life comes at level fucking 6.

>>47269174
Fuck off. The homebrew is shit.

>>47269197
Most of the Medic's healing abilities are still Ex, AND nobody actually fucking plays in the Mana Wastes. It's the same reason that the ANTIMAGIC FIELD bullshit everyone tries to use as an excuse is total bullshit, because it's super rare that you ever actually run into them.

>>47269207
>homebrew
Come back when you understand what we're talking about, laddiwad.

>>47269245
>It's the same reason that the ANTIMAGIC FIELD bullshit everyone tries to use as an excuse is total bullshit, because it's super rare that you ever actually run into them.

They still fucking exist.

Why does the medic's shit turn off in them?

>>47269261
Because his shit that ISN'T patching fuckers up with bandages and stuff DOES work. Up to and including removing negative effects and bringing people who have died back from the dead (though only for a few rounds).

It's only making your buddies use your counters and full-on resurrection spells that wouldn't work in these theoretical situations that ALMOST NEVER actually happen.

>>47269306
Why is encouraging allies to defend themselves supernatural?

>>47269053
I don't see any way to be immune to smite, but honestly the fear thing requires you to make two successful checks to actually do anything. Also that is a three feat investment that does nothing against immunity to mind effecting, there is also a level one spell to suppress fear effects.

>>47269333
I figure it's something like actually allowing them to defend themselves in a way they normally can't. It's not just "YOU CAN DO IT!", it's "DODGE THAT ATTACK AND THROW SAND IN HIS FUCKING EYES!"

>>47269053
Antipaladins are amazing, a conductive weapon lets you do nice dpr and daze enemies as well without a saving throw which is crazy. Shame about the alignment description, otherwise I'd consider playing them.

>>47269245
>DSP
>not glorified homebrew
Kill yourself

Does anyone have that picture of the power rangers villain saying 'your pathetic digital science is no match for our superior demonic science'?

>>47269391
Tyrant Antipaladin makes them MUCH easier to stomach.

>>47269392
If you have nothing to add to the conversation, feel free to fuck off, m8.

>>47269392
>pathfinder
>not glorified homebrew of 3.5e

>>47269417
>go away if you're not gonna say nice things
Cry more

>>47269345
>immunity to mind-affecting
Which no paladin has or can reasonably get? Also, it's been argued that Aura of Cowardice gets rid of that, too.
>Creatures that are normally immune to fear lose that immunity while within 10 feet of an antipaladin with this ability.
>that immunity
If you're only immune to fear because of mind-affecting immunity, then that would be the 'that immunity' that you lose.

>there is also a level one spell to suppress fear effects
Which paladins can't cast, and which only suppresses active fear effects, making it useless when you're frightened and can't do anything but run?

>>47269444
Nobody gives a shit what you think.

3pp =/= homebrews, it's pretty fucking obvious if you're not braindamaged

>>47269392
>Paizo
>not glorified homebrew

What are you even doing in this thread if you don't like homebrew?

>>47269417
>Tyrant Antipaladin makes them MUCH easier to stomach
True. Playing a tyrant would be totally against my own moral code but might be a fun RP experience.

>>47269485
I don't see this thread called homebrew general.

>>47269444
Faggot, please.
>Muh 1pp only
Want to know the reason we discuss PoW here? Because half of paizo's classes are badly designed. DSP is not perfect either, but it provides well-balanced, easily customizable martials and we like that.
Whether you are a paizo only scrub or a caster supremacist, you can unkindly fuck off.

>>47269482
All stuff not created or authorized by the publisher is, by definition, homebrew. Doesn't matter if its presence is physical, digital, or a chan page.

>>47269541
"made at home, rather than in a store or factory."

No.
Homebrew is amateur-made.

>>47269514
Sometimes that's the most fun. I'm like, the exact opposite of CN, but my CN Dwarf Ranger who was a out-for-himself mercenary was one of the most fun characters I ever RP'd.

He wasn't lulsorandum douchebag, he protected the people who'd hired him because that's what he was getting paid for. He didn't take any bullshit from the CG witch who was being an insufferable cunt, but he didn't let her get killed because of it.

>>47269529
DSP is just as badly designed. Not paizo doesn't mean good. DSP falls flat in its PoW design.

>>47269573
>abloobloobloo martials get fun toys that make them less shit

>>47269599
See the fact that's your first assumption just shows you don't actually examine the fucking content. You like it because it's not paizo and because pfg is a fucking echo chamber. It's poorly designed and they're unapologetic about not fixing things they know are broken.

>>47269627
I'm sorry JJ, that we don't like your fucking stuff.

>It's just because you don't understand it...if you read it, you'd really like it

Oh honestly go fuck yourself, paizofag.

>>47269084
Would the Winter Witch and prc of the same name work with for this? Or is there some form of Wizard that's better?

>>47269573
>Muh early level damage
2d6+6 Fighters or Barbarians (2d6+9 with PA) will still oneshot most enemies below CR 4, and from then onward they can start stacking on damage. Yes, PoW level 1 deals ridiculous levels of damage and can easily get a +9/+11 to attack on some scenarios, but it's clear that it's better to have early level encounters be easy than deadly due to the fact that 12 hp tops still makes you extremely frail.
Higher level wise? Barbpounce will still tear through in dpr calculations, even if a few initiator builds pull ahead, either case will still ORKO an enemy, no particular difference if you do 100% of its HP or 125%

>>47269521
It's implied, seeing as PF is nothing but Bullmahn's houserules for 3.5.

>>47269627
>"unapologetic about not fixing things they know are broken."
>errata incoming
Care to talk out of your ass some more?

I'm sure you can't even elucidate on what these poor design decisions are, let alone provide examples of where they said they won't fix shit.

You can go suck off Bulmahn some more, I'm sure he would appreciate it since he can't find his own dick.

>>47269660
>Yes, PoW level 1 deals ridiculous levels of damage and can easily get a +9/+11 to attack on some scenarios
>get a +9/+11

PoW did 9/11 confirmed

>>47269650
Fucking Christ you have no actual argument to defend the content, do you? DSP defense force is out today ain't it?

>>47269660
Not even the fucking problem, nice assumptions game m8.

>>47269671
Errata incoming for 2 fucking years. It's never coming.

>>47269706
"After PoW:E" means once it's done. The hardcovers are going to ship soon, which means they'll be devoted to it soon.

You being an impatient shit doesn't mean that they aren't doing it.

Just a question: Are you aware that you're ENCOURAGING discussion of PoW? Because folks are going to do so to spite your stupid ass.

>>47269690
>Muh spells per day
Then this one is? You fuckface, you do know that level 1 wizards will have anywhere from 3 (17-18 Int) to 6 (20 Int, Thassilonian) spells per day, for 4 CR 1 encounters. In those cases, that means that the wizard has the right spells to oneshot it 75% of the time while the rest of the party cleans up.
From level 3 onwards, the wizard's spells per day basically double and from 5 onwards spells per day shouldn't be an issue if you can do proper management.
Renewable resources aren't a gamebreaker beacuse the game is designed around the 4-encounters-per-day setup.

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>>47269690
It's a fucking opinion.

Whether you like content or not is subjective.

I have no interest in repeating what we constantly discuss regarding plot power and all the martial caster inconsistencies, because you're obviously a troll and I'm bored

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Is there a reason that there is no full-BAB Wisdom-based full initiator? It feels like an oversight compared to the likes of Warlord, Warder, and Zealot.

>>47269758
Because there's no fucking quota they're meeting. They're just making classes.

>>47269758
I'm pretty sure this has come up before, but Ordained Defender Warder?

>>47269758
Ordained Defender Warder.

>>47269690
>DSP defense force
People telling you that you're a cunt for coming into a thread and being a bellligerant shit screaming what amounts to "THOSE FUCKING JEWS/NIGGERS/[PEOPLEIDONTLIKE] ARE RUINING EVERYTHING (even though they're empirically not)" isn't a 'defence force'.

You're a shit-spewing hate filled mong, that's going off about something that isn't even fucking correct and no one wants to hear it. Fuck off.

>>47269742
There are a few main issues I have with DSP content that has worsened over time.

>no system of recourse
In magic there are ways to nullify an individual. A counterspeller can effective a make a caster a worthless, SR exists, magic immunity exists occasionally. These and other systems exist to be counter points to magic. In paizo they are ineffective ones but the ideas exist. In PoW if something can be hit then it is subject to a manuvere. There is no parry system except with counters from other DSP content. DSP does not play nice with outside DSP characters. A symptom of this is the broadly known fact that Initiator NPCs are simply too deadly for the average party, even DSP to fight.

>skill to X manuvers
While a feel good mechanic it is not well designed, and in fact all feel good mechanics must be examined for this reason. Skill optimization exists on an entirely different and fundamentally unbalance able track because of how skills work in base pathfinder.

>PoWE
The design space for manuvers is getting tighter and dear lord is it showing.

>>47269835
Nearly half of all disciplines are Su now, but let's not pretend that AMFs and other wizard-stopping abilities actually show up often enough for it to be a real weakness.

The other shit is "I don't like this" and doesn't constitute poor design at all.

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>>47269835
>implying
I guess that troll warlord we fought a couple of months back as 1pp classes only sure fucked our shit up and resulted in a tpk. God knows we didn't actually win and we definitely had to make new characters because oh how OP POW is.

>>47269835
>In paizo they are ineffective ones but the ideas exist.
You mean like AC counters being hit?

>
While a feel good mechanic it is not well designed, and in fact all feel good mechanics must be examined for this reason. Skill optimization exists on an entirely different and fundamentally unbalance able track because of how skills work in base pathfinder.
Literally the same remark could be made about spells/DC/touch attacks.

>The design space for manuvers is getting tighter and dear lord is it showing.
Literally the same remark could be made on spells.

>>47269913
Did I ever say spells were well designed? They aren't. I'm saying you're running from one poorly designed bosom to another.

>>47269897
Skills to X is poorly designed with how skills work in PF.

As for Su, anti magic is much less of a concern compared to SR and counter spelling having no equivalent functions.

>>47269900
Then your GM was pulling punches. Is the troll was an appropriate level he should have killed a party member each round.

>>47269925

The way I see it, we would be playing a different game if we were here for good design.

Since it is taken for granted whenever I GM that I am going to have to deal with bullshit as best I can, it might as well be even-handed bullshit.

>>47269835
>Counterspeller
I believe these guys need to keep their standard actions readied, so in most cases it's a 1/1 situation where if a caster gets locked with another one, it's generally to the action economy vantage of the party.
SR is a joke, there's a wide amount of ways to ignore magic immunity (Summons or spells that don't get SRed are a good example).
While it comes up somewhat late, there's Cut from the Air/Smash from the air vs ranged attacks, and I believe swashbucklers get something to parry melee attacks (inb4 CHARMED LIFE).

I'll agree that skill to X maneuvers are strong, but outside of the save ones, attack roll replacers aren't exactly on the easiestly optimizable skills. Black Seraph's Wrath is another matter (But then this is a unique case).

About the maneuver design space, honestly I believe that DSP has shown class design creativity and I wouldn't mind classes reusing disciplines as long as they had interesting mechanics.

>>47269998
Save and attack nullifies. As well the double check to damage ones are issues.

>>47269953
No he didn't hold back. We fucked him up because we're not retards and we plan for just about everything. I don't know what kind of people you play with but it doesn't sound like they're very good.

>>47269998
>I believe these guys need to keep their standard actions readied, so in most cases it's a 1/1 situation where if a caster gets locked with another one, it's generally to the action economy vantage of the party.
You can get a limited number of immediate action ones a day, after that it requires readying actions.

>SR is a joke, there's a wide amount of ways to ignore magic immunity
Have you never had high SR turn an encounter debilitating? If a creature had high enough SR that your spells are not going through what ever you're gonna summon isn't going to make a difference.

Look at the more powerful raksasha.

>>47270008
Double check to damage? I don't believe I've seen one of those, I know of skill ranks to damage, but at most I think there's Black Seraph's Wrath and a RH maneuver that do skill check to damage, and that's for a single attack.

>>47270029
How do you nullify a troll level 5 warlord doing 80-120 damage per round? CR 8 creature.

>>47270008
To make those effective, you need to invest build resources and action economy into them. Just like how a spellcaster has to buy and prepare/know the right spells, an Initiator needs to invest.

>>47270039
Shattered mirror has double craft check to damage. Double team.

>>47269084
Crystal tiara from unchained, it's 1000GP and levels with you.

>>47270050
Do the math behind 80-120 damage per round, because that seems way too high for a level 5 Warlord. If you can show that off, then at the very least I'll bow-out and say that you're right.

>>47269466
>>Creatures that are normally immune to fear lose that immunity while within 10 feet of an antipaladin with this ability.
Immunity to mind effecting is not Immunity to fear, there are specific things with immunity to fear.
Also a paladin can reasonably get it, what are potions, spell tattoos, imbued with spell like ability.
Also if you want to use liberal interpretations of the rules it would not get rid of aura of courage.
Humans the creature are not normally immune to fear, their class ability is not a racial feature, therefor humans as a creature do not normally have it, so the ability does not work on them.
And once they are 10 feet away, they are no longer under the effect of the fear anyways since their ability turns back on, so they can move 10 feet away oh I am no longer scared move ten more feet back and kick your teeth in.

>>47270079
>>47270079
I am in a phone. Give me an hour or two to get to an actual computer.

>>47270038
>Have you never had high SR turn an encounter debilitating? If a creature had high enough SR that your spells are not going through what ever you're gonna summon isn't going to make a difference.
There are spells that specifically ignore SR

>>47270139
>Also a paladin can reasonably get it, what are potions, spell tattoos, imbued with spell like ability.

Which spells grant immunity to mind-effecting, let alone one low enough level to be made into a potion? Even mind blank doesn't do it: It grants immunity to divinations, but only resistance bonus vs. mind-effecting.

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>>47270155
I await to be proven wrong; if I am, then I'll definitely take a closer look at PoW material and join in to see where the math can be tightened-up and brought in-line with the rest of the game. Seriously, if I'm proven incorrect in my assumptions, I'll happily reconsider my options!

>>47270166
A few and the ones who do are relatively weak.

>>47270060
Oh, darn, that one's nasty. Luckily, outside of Aegis, there's no other class that pumps up Craft checks I believe. I guess this one should get up on the list to stuff to errata asap, then.
>>47270079
Is it a PF/BB/TD combo? Because DSP has openly stated that those three disciplines are overtuned on damage and are going to get nerfed as soon as they get to work on the errata.

>>47270050
>80-120 dpr
>level 5
lmao

>>47270187
I was more trying to point out they can get spell based fear immunity/spell based fear suppression as those are not normally immune effects they would not be suppressed.

>>47270050
By making them read the rules.

>>47263641
Sort've. Arcanists either get little out of their exploit related class features (they got whacked with the nerf bat and are more dependent on Charisma now), or have significantly worse ability scores (since you don't get jack shit out of a Cha score of 13 or lower). Whether Arcanists have more versatility is... arguable, they get fewer spells prepared than a wizard has spell slots, and it's standard operating procedure for everyone to leave a few slots open to fill with whatever utility spells crop up.

Also their immediate action counterspell is kinda ass, since you have to either have the exact spell or burn a spell slot a level higher (which won't even be an option a lot of the time, especially being a whole level behind on spell levels). You don't even have the option of using Dispel Magic. You can take another exploit for that to go away at freaking 11th level, but that's really late and you're STILL burning a spell slot and an action on a roughly 50% chance to disrupt a single spell.

>>47270234
>if they ever do an errata

Ftfy

>>47269835
Initiating npcs shouldn't exist, the classes are for pcs. Just like optimized barbarian npcs or paladin archer npcs or save or die caster npcs shouldn't exist.

The retarded idea that npcs should be built like pcs needs to die.

>>47270472
>STILL burning a spell slot and an action on a roughly 50% chance to disrupt a single spell.
An immediate action you don't normaly need.
You get spells one level later, boo hoo, it is a minor, very minor set back.
Also the counter spell gives you access to counter spell and the ability to still cast spells, something a wizard can't do without a readied action, it gives you options for enemy spell casters.
They get the same number of spells per a day, but an arcanist can have four different spells to chose from, well the wizard has what he prepped as options without variation.

>>47270659

If you stick to NPC Codex-tier NPCs, though, a party that knows what it's doing will punch significantly above its weight CR-wise, though.

>>47270659
>initiating npcs shouldn't exist
>/pfg/ keeps saying that the best way to challenge initiators is to use other initiators
So what would YOU recommend then?

>>47270872
Different anon but I would say up the number of enemies not the strength of them. Make sure they spread out so they can't get full attacked into the ground.
You know action economy stuff.
Also have them play smart and use terrain and cover.

>>47270872
/pfg/ says you should give monsters counters and the occasional stance, NOT that they should be Primal Fury-focused ZS Warder DPR machines.

Literally no one has ever said, "Oh yeah, just toss a bunch of initiator class levels and strikes on your bad guys," because that's fucking retarded.

A CR8 Troll using PoW probably has one or two counters, and MAYBE a boost and/or stance. He's not running around spamming Broken Blade full attack+ maneuvers, I can tell you that.

So I found the Golarion cosmology a bit... odd. There are three different heavens (heaven, elysium, nirvana) and three different hells (hell, abyss, abaddon).

So I decided to use the plug-n-play cosmologies from The Book of the Planes, The Book of Hell, Purgatorium: Seasons of the Soul and other OGL books from onebookshelf. There are still nine outer planes, but their roles are more sensible IMO. There are now only two afterlives for evil and non-evil people respectively. (OGL copy available here for info: http://torar.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Planar_Cosmology)

Does this ruin/enhance the game in your opinion?

>>47270986
Probably has literally zero effect on anything. Unless you're in a campaign that specifically intends to go plane hopping to celestial or infernal realms and shit, it'll never really matter.

If you had fun changing that shit, more power to you, but it's almost hilariously unlikely to have any real effect on anything, unless you go out of your way to make it relevant.

>>47270659
A GM should write for their party. If the party likes the bad guys to be able to match their thunder then it's absolutely not wrong to have NPCs with initiating classes, optimized paladin and barbarian NPCs, or die caster NPCs. Personally I get bored if I don't think I can screw up and lose a character.

>>47270986
Egh, I feel like you guys (people wanting to change the cosmology, that is) always fixate too much on the afterlife aspect.

Giving souls a place to sit and spin for eternity isn't the point of the celestial/infernal planes. It's the other way around: mortal life exists and persists only to keep the planes supplied with quintessence and afloat in the Maelstrom.

I personally find that a good bit more interesting than generic biblical reward/punishment stuff. It's one of the many facets of Golarion that's better for Paizo rarely getting around to talking about it; they'd ruin it pretty quick if they ever did an afterlife AP or something.

>>47270659
>The retarded idea that npcs should be built like pcs needs to die.
I find that the game is actually a great deal more interesting this way. PC's don't immediately try to solve all their problems by murderfucking when they know they can be murderfucked just as hard.

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>>47271093
Post your face when Crystal Frasier's AP is a defense of Heaven from Azathoth or something, and thus she gets to be in charge of the depiction of Heaven over six whole books of setting.

>>47267858
Actually, this is not the case, because tiers can only indirectly affect how you play, more or less only of you let them. Sure, there are more powerful classes than others, but the question should be: What is my group comfortable with?
Maybe one of your players wants to play an evoker with burning hands only or something silly like that. Why ban him from playing a wizard then?
Maybe one of your guys wants to play a vanilla martial, without PoW. Why force him to pick up maneuvers?
Look at the power level you want to have in your campaign, then look at the PCs you've been given and then work with your group to get them on one level.

Does anybody have a copy of the pdf for inner sea intrigue, armor master's handbook, or magical tactics toolbox?

>>47271384
Because if there is a Wizard played even remotely competently in that party, Mr. CRB Fighter is going to be completely worthless in terms of problem solving and actually meaningfully contributing to the narrative.

When you mix tiers like that (1 with 5, or even 3 with 5) you end up where some people are just straight fucking worse than the rest of the party, and that's not fun for anyone. The stronger people feel like they're forced to carry dead weight, and the weaker people feel like they' aren't doing anything of value.

As long as you're within about a tier (preferably less than that, such as mid-low T3 with high T4 classes, or low T1 with high T2 classes) that problem is significantly less noticeable.

>>47270155
Oh shit, are you okay?
Do you need help to get out of the Matrix?

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I'm a semi new player, have been in a few campaigns but played mostly full BAB classes (and an inquisitor) and enjoyed all of them, and didn't feel useless with the exception of bloodrager in social encounters.

I'm planning on playing a monk 1/investigator x, with the empiricist archetype, and am planning on helping in combat with longarm/enlarge and a longspear tripping foes. Will this drop off in usefulness dramatically? I'd imagine flying creatures, multiple legged things would become very hard to trip, but at around level 12 I had (with some buffs like heroism, haste, studied target, enlarge person) a +32~ to trip, and if I can't trip I can be at +27~ hit and doing mid 30s damage tops without studied strike damage.

I don't expect to keep up with a fighter in terms of damage, but do you think I'd be able to remain useful in combat (I know I'll be useful outside of it)?

>>47262628
>GP
>Goat Point

>>47270050
By bringing them back down to level 5.

BAB 5, say, Strength bonus +6, large adaptive longbow+1, rapidshot, manyshot. You get 3 attacks, each one capable of dishing out 2d6+7+1d6, critical 20/x3

If he were to hit three times times and one of those was a crit, the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM he would deal is 125 that round. However, that's ALL rolls a 6, and a confirmed crit, all hits. In reality, his DPR is closer to about 55-60 depending on his accuracy.

That's a heavily optimized "I want big numbers its all I care about" setup here, where the troll gives up on some damage in order to have three fucking shots already.

Someone doing twice that indicates there be lies or a severe misunderstanding of the rules about.

>>47266615
There's no action to begin flying with the Fly hex. You're just flying, or not flying.

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>after wondering through the desert of what our party can only guess be another plane, with ensueing hyjinks including my necromancer creating a mini-nito, is finding a hellstone mine inhabited by Kobolds, and finding some sweet loot inside, we find a sand kraken
>2 phase battle, tentacles, then the main body popping up
>Gm acting like it's going to be a tough battle
>my necromancer casts enervation at it, it takes 4 beg levels
>cast it again as head pops up
> 4 neg levels
>feel bad after realizing I trivialized the fight, right after the "paladin" does 49 damage after Criting
>gm and I agree to use enervation more sparingly for his sake as a newish gm
So is this the true power of necromancy?

What are some of the best Archmage Path abilities for an Arcanist?

I was thinking of Channel Power, Coupled Arcana, and Component Freedom as must haves.

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Hey /pfg/ how do I do pic related as a character?

>>47271853
Owlbear

>>47267856
>Removing Golden Lion somehow makes you more Ornstein

What a world.

Personally I think he'd work better as a Mageknight.

>>47271851
Yes. Skeletonmancy is for Clerics, wrecking all the fucking things with terrible debuffs is what a Necromancer's all about.

>>47271868
Well I figured seeing as I took the spell and necrocrafts exist I was almost obliged to make nito, but yeah debuffs fo days

Is it possible to viably play a spelthief mage in PF? Any 3pp.
I'm specifically looking for a caster that has very limited spells himself and instead mimics spells cast by others.

>>47269555
The difference between homebrew and third party is if you sell it or not.

>>47271847
The Flight hex says you can Fly, as the spell. The spell requires a standard action to activate. Therefore the Flight hex requires a standard action to activate.

>>47271922
You can fly, as per the spell. Not 'you can CAST Fly'

It's just 'you can fly'

>>47271957
And if it's not as the spell, then...
>Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description).

>>47270659
>>47270872
What >>47270930 said. NPCs shouldn't be built like PCs. When you see NPCs, they have abilities that are inspired by class, they have some prepared spells, they have some abilities. This is especially the case for initiators. Give them a boost, a stance, one or two counters and maybe a signature strike as their classic move.

Make sure it all fits with their character, what they studied. A paladin might have silver crane, an orc warrior might have a primal fury, a monk might have a broken blade, but they're not full PC initiators.

>>47270903
Playing smart is always a good idea, but artificially increasing the number messes with a lot of builds and is difficult to balance. Not to mention the enemies and their types should be accurate to the situation they're running into, not necessarily what they're balanced for.

>>47271853
There's the Cybersoldier archetype for Fighters.

They get the ability to use way more cybernetics, get bonuses for using weapons in cybernetic arms which stack with weapon training, and otherwise get slam attacks with their cyber arms.

And (Admittedly at 19th level) they get a pool of regenerating temp hp based on the number of cybernetics they have, 5 per piece.

>>47271919
Yes, anon.

That is the different between professional and amateur. Whether you do it for a living.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

>>47271997
>admittedly at 19th level
Well, remember, per Paizo, Spiderman has to be minimum 18th level to webswing freely. Winter Soldier being 19+ makes sense in that universe.

>>47271981
Yes. Like the featherfall is 'use featherfall'

Or the levitate is 'cast levitate'

Whereas the fly portion is just 'you can fly'. Not 'you can use Fly', just 'you can fly'

>>47272023
>per Paizo, Spiderman has to be minimum 18th level to webswing freely
Is this a meme or did they actually stat Spiderman?

>>47272054
No, but there's the Beastsoul (I think) archetype for Vigilantes, where they pick an animal to be like. Spider is one of them. It's spiderman in every way.

>>47272054
Arachnid Wildsoul Vigilante is the nearest thing.
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante/archetypes/vigilante-archetypes---paizo-inc/wildsoul

2nd level for spider sense, 6th level to shot web 3+Con times per day, 12th level to climb on walls and make single web ropes (which costs shot web uses), and 18th level to web swing at will

>>47272094
>18th level
GODDAMNIT PAIZO.
THAT'S HOW YOU GET ANTS.

>>47272094
>12th level to climb on walls
Meanwhile half the other classes got the ability to fly some levels ago.
Sasuga Paizo!

>>47272094
Who plays this lame shit?
Like, if you wanted to play Not!Spiderman, why would you use this garbage instead of, like, some kind of Aegis or whatever?

>>47271779

Question - what do you want the monk for? It does improve a few saves and bring some goodies, but it delays your investigator class features a fair bit, and if you plan to be unarmored it requires an extra good stat.

Swashbuckler (inspired blade) may be a better idea if you do not mind using a rapier. Daring champion, brawler, ranger or fighter can also work.

>>47272045
>>47271981
This is a really interesting argument, I'm following closely.

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>>47272186

For threatening adjacent while using the longspear, to make sure I don't have any non threatened areas when enlarged as well. Monks make attacks with all of their body parts, so they aren't limited by having two hands on a spear to attack adjacent people. They kick motherfuckers that are right next to them.

It hurts me in the long run, but being able to threaten adjacent (can't make an AoO against an adjacent person with two hands on the longspear, and if I take one hand off asd a free action before I end my turn i then can't AoO at range) is a big deal, especially when enlarged.

I also get a bonus feat but the main reason is the threatening adjacent even when two handing the spear.

>>47272045
I never looked at it that way before, but I do believe you're on to something, with the way it is worded. It's made especially interesting to me because the two other abilities flight gives (feather fall and levitate) are very clear on how they are used, while the flight part is just 'you can fly, as per the spell' which makes you seem correct the matter.

Wish there was an easy way to get an official ruling on stuff like this, unfortunately sometimes wording leaves things up to interpretation and it can be frustrating.

>>47272179
People with GM's who don't allow 3pp.

>>47264161
So, you don't know how spines work? Lol idiots.

>>47272276
Another way you can look at it is things that have flight already.

They 'can fly'

Also note that there is a number of other passive Hexes which don't need to be activated, and the line quoted above about things using a standard action says 'usually'

>>47272248
If you've got armor spikes or some other weapon that doesn't specifically use a hand (like a barbazu beard or a sea boot knife or whatever the shit that thing is called) you absolutely can threaten adjacent without the level in monk. Shit, with just IUS you can do it, because you can kick, hipcheck, elbow strike, etc with IUS.

Hell, you can probably even try and use the haft of your spear as an improvised weapon, should your DM be amiable to that.

Monk is hardly the only option you have.

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>>47269771
>game balance = stifling oppression

>>47272341
The fuck are you even talking about? As stated by at least two people, a Wis-based full BAB initiator exists. Shit, multiple ones exist, since the Fighter, Ranger and Barbarian archetypes are ALSO Wis-based.

>>47269743
>liking stuff is subjective
>this somehow makes all attributes subjective
lol

>>47272368
Did you even read the post they were responding to?

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>>47272333

I didn't realize this; I thought that unarmed strikes from non monks were made only with fists, that kicking and shit with a reach weapon was reserved for monks.

Pretty much the only reason why that level of monk is there was for threatening adjacent (and 10ft away with enlarge + reach). If IUS or armor spikes let me do that then I can't think of a reason other than flavor for me to have the level in Monk.

>>47272403
I did. It doesn't make any fucking sense in any way, and I can only imagine he's actually having a seizure on his keyboard.

"Not having a Wis-based full BAB initiator" would not be a game balance problem OR stifling oppression, EVEN IF it were the case. Which it's not.

>>47272368
>since the Fighter, Ranger and Barbarian archetypes are ALSO Wis-based.
But they aren't full-initiators.

>>47272446
Yeah. People keep getting confused with the TWF and "metaphorical hands" rules that prevent you from TWFing with Longspear + Armor Spikes which honestly is a dumb rule, but I'm not in charge of what stupid decisions Paizo makes with the fact that you threaten with all weapons your are wielding. Since armor spikes/unarmed strikes/etc aren't held in hands, you're effectively considered wielding them at all times, and therefore threaten things within their reach.

>>47272460
No, but they ARE Wis-based initiators. And since PoW PrCs aren't complete garbage, you don't need to spend TOO much time dabbling in those actual classes.

Again, EVEN IF a Wis-based full BAB full initiator class did not exist, that's not a problem. There's no Cha-based 3/4 BAB full initiator, either, and I don't see anybody crying about that.

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>>47272528

I've done a little digging and it seems like that one level of monk is actually pretty beneficial. It saves me a feat on IUS or martial weapon proficiency (which would be useless except for the armor spikes; especially considering inspired enchantment only goes on simple stuff) and gives me a nice little boost to fortitude, and I get a bonus feat for Combat Reflexes. No matter how I swing it I'm gaining +2 to my worst save, saving two feats and get to flurry people who aren't threatened by my longspear, without having to worry about DM rulings.

>>47272315
Anon, it's 'usually' for Su abilities in general. For hexes:
>Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
This applies to literally every hex. NAILS has to be activated, though with no duration it's pretty much a non-issue.

>>47272600
Go UC Monk, at least. Full BAB, d10 HD and it's less full-retard than CRB Monk.

>>47272625

Oh, I should have mentioned that, the 1 level of monk was UC to begin with.

>>47272635
Fair enough. Carry on.

>>47263260
How difficult do you want the encounter to be? CR 6,7,8,9,10, etc?

We'll say CR 8 for example, most CR 8 encounters are worth 4,800 XP.
This is your budget.

Assuming no class levels Goblins are 135 each, 1-2 class levels make them 200-400 XP each, Goblin Dogs are 400 each.

35 Goblins, or 24 Goblins with 1 Class level, or 12 Goblin Dogs/Goblins with 2 class levels. Alternatively you could mix it up as long as their total XP don't equal more than 4,800.

You could even only spend like 3,000 XP on the goblins and the remaining 1,000 XP on traps/hazards/magic items for them so you can turn them into Tucker's Kobolds.

When assigning those goblin class levels you should also consider the party's abilities. They should have a means to deal with the Ranger/Druid, Sorcerer, Rogue, and Monk equally. Like Archer Goblins to ready shots on the casters, Caster goblins to thwart those animal companions, Alchemist Goblins with smoke-sticks to counter the Ranger/Rogue with concealment, etc.

To even it up a bit, I'd say 11 Goblins, 8 Goblins with 1 class level (or 2 npc class levels), and 4 Goblin Dogs (or Goblins with 2 class levels or 3 npcs class levels).

If things don't look good for the party remove one of these groups and it's a CR 7. Remove another and it's CR 6, etc. Don't just throw them all at once at the party have them chime in and out with class levels loose so they can shut down anyone outshining the party and give someone else a chance in the spot light.

They're not going to beat a party of 8 (not likely anyway) but they should be doing a good deal damage, roughly depleting 25% of their resources. Have those Goblin Dogs stack up that disease, give the Goblins poisons and shit. If you give them spells try to avoid those that allow a save or target those who have weak saves. Don't forget as they have class levels they're entitled to a few potions of say entropic shield or cure light wounds.

>>47272341
>acting as if the mental stat matters for anything but preference

>>47272671
>Will saves

>>47272678
>DSP classes get save fixers

>>47272678
Literally every PoW Initiator class either has a good Will save or an ability that boosts Will saves (sometimes even adding Initiator mod to Will, which can be super strong). Or both, in the case of the Medic.

This also is ignoring the fact tha there are Counters that work against spells/powers/etc.

>>47272617
Alright.

So you activate the Flight hex immediately upon level up, which provides you at-will featherfall, a 1/day levitate, and the ability to fly for x/minutes a day.

The HEX ITSELF does not have a duration, only the ability to fly (Which only ticks down when using it) has a duration.

>>47272372

Don't put words in my mouth and call it my argument.

Did I not say directly afterwards that are reasoning (ie martial/caster inconsistencies or respective plot power) behind those opinions, but people don't need to objectively justify liking something?

He was saying (maybe you) that if we just could possibly understand all the minutia that they wrote in, we couldn't possibly enjoy anything else more.

That's retarded. You can objective attributes when comparing raw numbers, but that's not all a game is.

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>you can find all the Arcane Anthology archetypes on SRD
>except the crappy Fighter one.
>it's so shit, even d20 won't acknowledge it.

Does someone have a screencap of it, so I can properly laugh at that embarrassment?

>>47264291
At level 1 aid another stacking is invaluable.
Say you have 3 party members in addition to yourself. You could all roll that 20 and not likely be able to make it. Or find out among you who has the highest modifier, while everyone else rolls for a 10 to aid that person.

For example, we'll say that's you:

1 party member helping turns that 14 you need to 12 if they can make at least 10 on their skill check.

2 party members makes that 10,

3 party members make it 8.

3 party members and the party member's companion/familiar make it 6 or even 4, etc.

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>>47273007

>>47265665
Actually that Rogue has resources too in his Wealth. He could spend it on items/wands/etc to keep pace or even exceed the Alchemist. Assuming he spends his gold properly he can buff himself to contribute while the "godhood wizard" takes care of the traps.

>>47265742
Line in the Sand spell?