>the bandit is begging for mercy >I got a wife and kid!

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>>47158739
>Bandit was going to be a re-occuring ally
>Bandit was crucial to the plot
>GM thought he knew the PC's and players enough to make an educated guess
>GM rolled and you failed
>GM is sick of your white, shit small red-button nip monkey car.

>>47158774

Rail roading faggot

The GM lost his gamble, the players didn't lose it for him. If he didn't want them to kill him he shoulda had the bandit say something that actually tied him to the story.

>>47158739
>killing an unarmed prisoner begging for his life

Gee, I wonder why

Someone post the Gygax caps. TL;DR if you commit evil a LG character is not obligated to show you mercy.

>>47158799
Then you GM, fucko.

>>47158822
If you are an evil character, you are not obligated to be merciless.

>>47158739
>GM
>Posts Honda

>>47158804
>bandit
>unarmed
>prisoner
If you drop your weapon because combat isn't going your way, I don't consider you unarmed, and I'm sure as hell under no obligation to accept you as a prisoner.

>>47158843
Okay.

>>47158804
And a criminal who may have ended lives of his own and assaulted the party with a weapon. Their victims also had spouses and children. A paladin is judge, jury, and executioner. This isn't the modern justice system.

>>47158822
>>47158799
Since I refuse to jump through his hoops of redemption I guess I'm just some wandering expaladin demanding for true lawful good justice in this world

>>47158739
Killing helpless prisoners is not very chivalrous. I don't like paladins very much because their code of honor is restrictive and intrusive, but this actually seems like one of the bigger things to me.

>>47158900

The GM is a shithead for having the pally fall. If I were the player I would demand it reversed or leave the game.

>>47158923

Throwing your weapon to the ground does not make you a prisoner

>>47158923
>live a life of merciless crime
>get off easy because you told the paladin you were "sowwy :("

no

>>47158923
He's not a helpless prisoner. He's an enemy combatant who just realized he's going to lose and doesn't want to die. If the paladin accepts his surrender, then he'd be a helpless prisoner, and if the paladin killed him at that point, he'd deserve to fall.

>>47158864
>>47158893
Chivalry frequently does not achieve the optimal results. Like many honor codes, it can be a great hindrance at times (and the chivalric code is more intrusive than most). If you want an alignment that's not concerned with honor, you want chaotic.

if you don't ask for an insight check before killing him the fall is legit :you are a paladin not a butcher ...

>>47158923
>Kill an entire village
>Paladin troopers come into town.
>With the heart of a child half-eaten in my hand I drop my sword and surrender.
>Immediately backstab the paladin who comes to put me in handcuffs.
>Throw down knife and surrender again.
>Backstab
>Surrender
>Repeat until whole paladin order is dead
>Anything to the contrary has the Paladins fall.
No wonder demons and evil get so powerful, gods are retarded.

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>>47158900
>>47158923
>>47158927
>>47158949
>>47158967

That is one of the handicaps/hooks of playing a Paladin, if you don't want to be bound by strict monastic rules, be a Cleric or a Fighter with a very strong moral code. Don't roll a PC with rules then bitch when you don't want to follow those rules.

There is no difference to being a Druid and killing a dog that bit you or abusing any sort of animal.

>>47159020
You're the reason there aren't more GMs in the world. Also why Gods no longer speak to us.

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>>47158989

It's not "honorable good", or "chivalrous good", it's lawful good. Robbery is a crime. Fuck you Tyrone.

>>47158927
"I would demand it reversed or leave the game"
lol making demand if the gm think you have done something wrong will get you nowhere

>>47158739

Wait you murdered an oponent who surrendered in cold blood. And you asking why you fell?

Really?

>>47158949
>>47158963
You understand that this is a paladin we're talking about here, right? You can make sensible arguments all you want, but killing somebody who has surrendered is not an honorable thing to do according to the romanticized chivalry of our pop culture, which is what a paladin is based on. Do you not understand what a paladin is? It's like you're taking a guy whose powers depend on his vow of silence and then complaining your GM won't let him speak, when not speaking is clearly stupid and hampers you a lot.

>>47158989
Chivalry is a medievil code of conduct between people of good breeding, of course it was not opitmal...

>>47158989
>>47159038
I'm bound by strict rules. Showing mercy to common killers because the fight didn't go their way isn't among them.

>>47159038

Who the fuck are you to say that killing bandits isn't allowed by the rules? Did you write the rules? Did the player agree to your rules or to the rules supported by a god they brought to the table?

Either way it's a stupid rule at odds with the basic notion of being a paladin. You'd probably let a lich get multiple free rounds by throwing his staff to the ground and saying he's sorry over and over.

7 years later I come back to /tg/ and you guys are still doing Paladin Fall threads.

What's next, "Women Get -4 STR" threads?
Sergals?

>>47159065
>It's not "honorable good", or "chivalrous good"
A paladin is the embodiment of chivalry. It's one of their main fucking things. It's what defines them. They are chivalrous holy warriors.

>>47159067

If he's a shithead like you, probably, in which case yeah, I'd probably end up leaving, good fucking riddance.

>>47159020
>>47158864
>>47158963

This is really the OPs fault for not giving the context of the begging

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>>47159104
Then you aren't a typical Paladin. It's pretty fucking simple.

>>47159112
The rules for any Paladin or Priest of any duty/honorable God are always quite clear about these things. If you are doing your own homebrew God that lets you do shit that's on you, but for any tradional game and god it's against the Paladin's code.

>>47159116
Yeah, and chivalry is 99% rules about single combat. Your point is?

>>47159083

Do YOU not understand what a paladin is? It's not whatever code of conduct you decided on, based on your vague notions of popular culture. It's based on the code of conduct as decided by whatever god or gods the character is supposed to be representing, in universe. There is no set in stone rules for all paladins, across all systems and settings. In many systems paladins don't even necessarily have to be good at all.

>>47159065
and what is the law of the deity concerning the matter:
i can see a paladin of Iomedae kill the bandit without trouble
but paladin of sarenrae should certainly fall by doing this

>>47158739
>playing a paladin in the first place
>not convincing someone else to be one to see how the DM enforces the paladin rules

Face it, regardless of right or wrong of killing a surrendering bandit, you fucked up by playing a paladin without knowing how the DM would enforce it.

>>47158989
Chivalry is a set of rules for nobles to play soldier and not have to worry about getting stabbed like the plebs. It's about ransoming people and armor and all that crap.

It certainly doesn't apply to bandits and thieves. A knight would be totally in the right to stomp on fools who try to rob him.

>>47159161
...No it's fucking not. It's all about loyalty to the Church, rules in court and fealty to the Sovereign and providing to the weak.

>>47158989
Chivalry has nothing to do with that. It's a simple agreement that you won't rape, extort, and pillage because you have the upper hand (horse and armour). It says nothing about showing illogical mercy ( having a wife and child is nothing special and won't save you from judgement).

*Your code is not everyone's code.*

Especially since you're at best projecting modern law enforcement onto it. Sorry to say.

Seriously, even Gygax disagrees with you.

>>47159104
>>47159089
These arguments are actually defensible, and it all depends on the slant on chivalry you're taking. Of course, in real life, knights were often little more than hired thugs, so much of what we're talking about here is firmly in the realm of fiction. Some conceptions tend to ignore class distinctions while others don't, and obviously the GM should let you know which way he's doing things. But if anything, the "chivalry applies to all" is the more commonly held view on paladins (even if it's a shallower, less interesting one). The GM could've been capricious in the manner in which he made the paladin fall, failing to give fair warning about what kinds of behavior would cause it to happen, but the example in the OP does not seem ridiculous in any way.

>>47159164
For regular, typical Paladins that require no further explination other than 'They are Paladins' the rules are nearly all the same, somantics change but the core remains. Killing surrendered opponents (even the BBEG) is against that code. Now weird 3rd party shit can justify stuff like Grey Paladins, they are a minority and most laymen would not know what they are.

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>>47158739
>the bandit is begging for mercy
>I got a wife and kid!
>"Your wife will be sent to a convent and your son become a ward of the Holy Church and serve as a squire to the Knights Templar!"
>kill him
>GM stands and applauds

>>47159152

Source, faggot. What god in pathfinder or whatever system you were using says you're not allowed to finish a fight with a murderer because he dropped his weapon?

>>47159179
None of that says "If a man drops his sword, you must take him prisoner regardless of whatever he has done or will do".

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>>47158739
You should go anti-paladin. Then abuse the GMs falling filling when paladins come to take you out.

>>47159179
Nothing about staying your hand when a dangerous criminal tries to kill you with a weapon. Do you need to be reminded how "mercifully" criminals were treated throughout history?

>>47159194
It does not even say that, knights raped and pillaged it was how they got payed. It was an agreement between those of Gentle birth.

>>47159168

Yeah, that's true. But saying all paladins in general should fall because of it is retarded. If there isn't an explicit rule against it, and it's not out of line with the concept of doing Good, then it should never make a paladin fall.

>>47159224
>>>47158739 (OP)
>You should go anti-paladin. Then abuse the GMs fall mechanic ruling when paladins come to take you out.
Fixed

Good to know I can escape judgement by dropping my weapon and begging for my life no matter the weight of my actions or the evils I commit.

>>47159115
The difference is that usually the Paladin Falls threads are based on the GM making the paladin fall for something he clearly shouldn't have, or forcing him into a no-win situation. In this case, we have an example that's actually pretty reasonable.

>>47159215
I don't know why you keep implying this happened or was even said.

>>47159204

>Killing surrendered opponents (even the BBEG) is against that code.

Absolutely not. You're full of shit. It's only a problem when the person doesn't represent a threat; say, if they were already in jail or tied up. But merely saying you give up and discarding a weapon does not eliminate you as a threat.

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>>47158739
Low quality bait detected. OP is a knave.

>>47158739
Does having a wife and kids exclude you from facing the consequences of your actions? Should I just go to all the families of the people who got bandit-murdered and say 'whoops no justice for you, turns out this guy had loved ones too!'

What the paladin did was unlawful, assuming that the bandit was attempting to surrender, but not not so extreme as to be evil. Even if the bandit had surrendered successfully, he'd likely face execution later.

>>47159225
The paladin class is about as historical as the magical powers it has. It is highly romanticized. It's the fantasy equivalent of the wild west gunslinger who engages in quickdraw showdowns at high noon.

>>47159268
>Literally in the OP it states that a bandit did bad things and the paladin fell for not taking him prisoner as soon as he dropped his weapon.
Fag.

I show mercy depending on who my enemy is. If they're a mercenary, soldier, or other enemy who's just on the wrong side because of duty, I try to spare them, and offer them a chance to surrender after they're defeated. At least, as long as they haven't been party to any atrocities. If they have, then they fall in the second category - as do all bandits, criminals, masterminds, and cultists. If they have willingly embraced evil, they get a single chance to surrender - before I draw my sword.

If they believe what they've done is wrong, and they want to repent, I'll give them that chance. I'll still take them to be punished however the law demands it, but I'll ask for mercy - for a punishment designed to correct them, so they can earn a second chance. But after my sword is drawn? No more chances. Anyone who asks for mercy only after they've been defeated hasn't realized the error of their ways - they've just realized they're about to die, and are desperate to live. They'll go back to evil again as soon as they get a chance. So why should I give them one?

>>47159211
>>47159215
>>47159225

You are purposefully combining the chivlaric code from our own medevil history which was about loyalty to the church, look it up on, it's all there.

Then you have the fantasy chivalry code of Paladins and Noble Knights. First two links of google

http://www.weirdness-central.co.uk/downloads/rpgstuff/guidelines-for-paladins.pdf
>Be Honourable (especially in Combat)
>You must engage the enemy in an honourable fashion
>You may willingly employ no unfair advantage against your opponent.
>Do not kill needlessly
>Prisoners, Should an opponent ask for quarter, you must grant it unless: blah blah blah miles away from etc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
> it was taboo for a paladin to lie or use poison,
>the paladin class has one of the most restrictive codes of conduct in their single-mindedness and utter devotion to good
>Failure to maintain a lawful good alignment or adhere to the code of conduct causes paladins to lose their paladin status

I fail to see what the confusing is.

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>>47158739
>the bandit is begging for mercy
Giving mercy when it is asked is one of the key points of a chivalrous knight.

the second he asked for mercy meant you would have been honor-bound to provide it. And no you can't turned a blind-eye towards one of the other PC's offing the guy because then that'd make you look like a liar, another big deal of any code of chivalry.

And these points are so universally recognized as the benchmarks of chivalry that it wouldn't just be the Paladin having to stick to this, the cavalier/knight and possibly a Samurai PC would also have had issue with your chosen action.

Maybe you should look into playing a different PC class because clearly you are having trouble grasping the concept of your current one.

>>47159257
IT'S ONE OF THE MOST COMMON TROPES OF A BAD GUY, I SURRENDER, PARLEY. IT IS BASED IN THE PALADIN'S CODE

>>47159304
>What the paladin did was unlawful, assuming that the bandit was attempting to surrender, but not not so extreme as to be evil.
Nobody is arguing that it would be Evil. They're arguing that it would be un-Lawful on the Law-Chaos axis. Even more specifically, they're arguing that it wouldn't be in keeping with the crazy restrictive far-Lawful code of conduct that paladins follow.

>>47159292
If the BBEG is a Necromancer or a fallen knight of course the best chance to take him before the courts is something a Paladin would consider... if it is a dragon or a Beholder then obviously you should be locked in a cellar and left to rot.

>>47159315
Doesn't even say he did bad things to be honest familia, robin hood was a "bandit"

>>47159326
everyone stop posting ITT after this guy now thanks.

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>>47159323
And what about the hundreds of people the bandit has killed who demand lawful good justice ?
I am not Jesus, I am a Paladin.

>>47159351
Then its completely acceptable for paladins, as they don't fall from doing chaotic acts. PERIOD.

>>47159323

>http://www.weirdness-central.co.uk/

Lmao

Bringing justice to a murderer is both lawful and good. Repentance earns mercy with the gods, not the lawman, but more importantly, accepting repentance in the heat of battle is a good way to get fucking killed, or at least lose the criminal, and thus allow the public to be harmed by not doing your job.

OP, the only option is to turn your character into what you mentioned earlier

Become true justice
Even if the Gods have forgotten what it is
You must show them

>>47159257
>Good to know I can escape judgement
No, it just means that the Paladin won't off you at this exact moment. More likely, it means being hogtied, dragged back to town, where you will stand trial, be found guilty of all the crimes you likely made no attempt to hide if it got the PC's attention, and then get offed by the executioner's ax if you are lucky.

Yeah, there is no 'get out of this' card to be played, only a change of venue.

>>47159397

Robin Hood was a bad person who deserved to be hanged

>Be bandit
>Get caught by paladin
>Surrender and get bound by rope.
>Shimmy my hands free while the paladin is sleeping and slit his throat with my hidden dagger.
>Steal all his stuff and go be a better bandit.

>>47159347
hm, funny thing is, its nowhere in there. Punish those who harm or threaten innocents is in there, be nice to those who harm or threaten innocents is not.

All the paladin's code requires him to do is MAYBE grant him a quick death, period.

I hate this "paladins must be morally acceptable by MODERN first world standards and never hurt my feelings" moral relativist nonsense.

>>47158923
That's why you either demand he pick his weapon back up and die on his feet or sheath your own to make it a fair fight.

>>47159152
>you aren't a typical paladin
Source: my ass

Checking some of EGG's posts in Dragonsfoot would tend to contradict you

All of you saying a Paladin has to be exceedingly merciful are automatically wrong via the guy who made this bullshit.

"Paladins are not stupid, and in general there is no rule of Lawful Good against killing enemies. The old adage about nits making lice applies. Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before they can backslide.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is by no means anything but Lawful and Good. Prisoners guilty of murder or similar capital crimes can be executed without violating any precept of the alignment. Hanging is likely the usual method of such execution, although it might be beheading, strangulation, etc. A paladin is likely a figure that would be considered a fair judge of criminal conduct.

The Anglo-Saxon punishment for rape and/or murder of a woman was as follows: tearing off of the scalp, cutting off of the ears and nose, blinding, chopping off of the feet and hands, and leaving the criminal beside the road for all bypassers to see. I don't know if they cauterized the limb stumps or not before doing that. It was said that a woman and child could walk the length and breadth of England without fear of molestation then...

Chivington might have been quoted as saying "nits make lice," but he is certainly not the first one to make such an observation as it is an observable fact. If you have read the account of wooden Leg, a warrior of the Cheyenne tribe that fought against Custer et al., he dispassionately noted killing an enemy squaw for the reason in question.

I am not going to waste my time and yours debating ethics and philosophy. I will state unequivocally that in the alignment system as presented in OAD&D, an eye for an eye is lawful and just, Lawful Good, as misconduct is to be punished under just laws.

-Gary Gygax

>>47159323
1e: 100%, you don't have to show mercy to evil foes, period.
2e: Good has no absolute values, etc. etc., its completely cultural
3e: Alhandra "fights evil without mercy," and the paladin MUST punish those who harm or threaten innocents. but more importantly, he respects legitimate authority, so do what legitimate authority (your god or king) wants.
4e: whatever you want
5e: whatever you want, very vague guidelines from your oath

>>47159347
Stop projecting your modern morality. You want to be your vision of chivalrous. Do it. But don't say YOUR CODE is everyone else's.

>>47159265
as a gm i make the paladin fall is that case if the player don't agree with my call i ask a few simple question like:
on what basis have you decided to execute a death sentence? if the player have a real answer like in town i heared about this warband earlier in the session those are the butchers of whatever i can retcon the fall
but i the player say something like it's a bandit he should deserve it then i ask how he tell the differance between greedy bandit and starving desesperate peasant who have made a bad choice ?
and confirm that the fall is legit

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>>47159418
1st edition AD&D was the first time the paladin was in the core rules. Read this passage from the Players Handbook.

At the battle of Agincourt large numbers of prisoners were killed when the prospect of them being released and re-armed by the french seemed apparent and the Henry really didn't suffer a loss of face because of it.

Why do people who want to play as pragmatic, ruthless adventurers ever play as Paladins? If somebody asks for Mercy you grant it and take it prisoner. But no you don't have to keep granting it over and over to the same guy. Start playing with a little intelligence and stop playing Lawful Good characters if you aren't going to be Lawful Good.

>>47159454
It's part of the Arthurian code of chivalry.

Would the party engaging in guerilla tactics against an encampment of evil goblins intent on either skinning or raping a nearby village of farmer not-wookies be categorized as neutral good? Or should I look past the method in this case and be more focused on the goal and intent?

>>47159562
And I think Gary fucking Gygax is a higher authority here when it comes his own class in his own game.

>>47159524
>post modernism whoa man you can't think anything about anything don't judge

Go fuck yourself

>>47159578

Good is always more important than Law. Law is the favored tool, but Good is the goal.

>>47159557
It's lawful good not lawful stupid

>>47159080
Some people just don't get it anon

>>47159038
>Don't roll a PC with rules then bitch when you don't want to follow those rules.

Noone ITT has a problem with following the rules. The problem is people *making up new rules* on the spot, just to make the paladin fall.

Also druids don't have to be "nice to animals" that bite them. Humans are neither automatically special to them, nor are animals automatically sacred to them; a druid can be anything from a kind healer who's a friend to the animals and strangers in need and so forth, to a madman performing human sacrifices on lost travelers, to a cultist who spreads plagues to every town he visits in the hope civilization will collapse.

>>47159524

>boohoo I'm so poor now I'm gonna rob some people at knife point

Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

>>47158739

Did he sense evil the bandit?
If not it's valid.

>>47159484
With due respect, Gygax said a lot of things, some of them contradictory, and some of the stupid. That's not to say that the way he endorses of looking at things is the wrong one, by any means. But it's not the only one, and it's not even the most obvious one. It's up to the GM and is something that should be established beforehand. But it's certainly not ludicrous that murdering somebody who threw down arms and surrendered would be seen as a gross violation of the paladin's code.

>>47159080

If allowing them to live presented reasonable danger to others than it is perfectly just to kill him even if he gives up the fight

>>47159579
-4 STR

>>47159625
>villagers suffer from these bandits every day
>these bandits have killed and robbed from hundreds of people
>but you didn't KNOW he's evil

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>>47158739

>bandits gonna bandit
>anti fun police show up
>bandits get their shit pushed in
>LOL I DROP WEAPON AND BEG FOR LIFE HUR DUR THE PALLY MUST SPARE ME!!!!

Gotta smite ALL the evil boy.

>>47159584
cause in the fact that a paladin can dispense a quick judgement the key word is judgement :

killing someone after he surrender only because he try to hurt you is barbarian moral not paladin's

also nice argument
>Go fuck yourself

>>47159540

Um, no. Why would someone who doesn't give Gygax any credence on paladins cite his work on them? How weaselly of you.

In 1e, as you would know if you were even slightly familiar, the answer is no, the paladin would not be performing a chaotic act in the least, he's fully entitled to kill the bandit. The alignments are far more expansive in 1e than in 3e (the edition that paladin hating alignment weasels love).

OP's char would be a straightforward LG paladin, no chaotic acts involved.

>>47159557
Dispensing justice isn't "pragmatic and ruthless." Its what they exist to do.

I think OP definitely should have been hit with a penalty of some kind, maybe his god gets a little miffed, but killing one bandit after they ask for mercy does not demand falling.

Falling from a god's favor is something a player actively chooses to do after breaking their vows repeatedly and consciously refusing to repent for it. It shouldn't be completely up to the GM's discretion.

>>47159673

He didn't kill the bandit because he attacked the paladin (but actually that would in and of itself be perfectly just), but because he robbed and possibly murdered innocent civilians. Which is unquestionably just.

I think what we have here is two completely different, equally valid approaches to lawful good. On one hand, it's perfectly reasonable to expect a paladin to offer mercy as a matter of course to anyone who asks, as long as they haven't abused it. On the other hand, it's also perfectly valid for a paladin to strike down those who have willingly chosen evil and show no signs of repentance, just terror for their lives. Either one is fair, and if the DM picks one, then the players really have no room to complain.

But if the DM picks one, doesn't tell the player, lets them make a character who follows the other option, and then goes "aha, you didn't read my mind, say goodbye to your paladin!" then they're a giant bag of cocks wrapped human flesh, and deserve nothing but scorn.

>>47159657

>hundreds of people

Stick to what we know, don't add speculation. we have 1 confined bandit. who threw down weapons and without so much as a sense motive check was cut down while surrendering

In most games that not a "Good act" subjectively, that's cold blooded murder.

All this does is show 3.pf alinements/Paladins are garbage.
Op is an excellent example of how it forces a player to play the alinement and not a character. That and his gm is a bit slow.

>>47159579
>And I think Gary fucking Gygax is a higher authority here
1. OP never said this was D&D
2. The Arthurian code of Chivalry is the iconic image of knighthood and chivalry, it'd be foolish to dismiss it because it was not explicitly referenced when the Paladin is heavily implied again and again as the iconic "knight in shining armor".

See you guys talking about chivalry. That shit isn't as chivalrous as you'd think.

Like one anon mentioned, it's for conduct between people of good breeding. Peasantry not included. A knight's chivalric duties could easily include menacing the peasantry so that they would remember their station.

Cutting down unarmed bandits is indeed chivalrous.

>>47159689

>I think OP definitely should have been hit with a penalty of some kind, maybe his god gets a little miffed

It absolutely depends on the god or gods in question.

>>47158739
What a lazy shitpost, it's amazing how effective it seems to be.

>>47159635
Here's the thing though. Who says it was part of their code? As a paladin you ARE the judge which means you can be the executioner. That's not something you can abuse as you are also Good but what you're overlooking is that you are a part of the law and not the cozy modern law that you're used to. There's no point in taking prisoners that will hang when as an enforcer you can cut them down there.

>>47159720
I doubt his gm cared, most(in my experience) don't, it's "lmao you fell" or bust for them.

>>47159579
Gygax sometimes had some peculiar views on things that the majority of people didn't abide by even back in the day, when they were playing an edition he wrote. I'm not saying we shouldn't listen to him at all, but his word is not law. And popular conception of this type of thing is pretty important to what gets deemed reasonable, especially when the rules don't specifically talk about the case in point.

Note that I'm not saying it would be bullshit if the GM was okay with what the paladin did in the OP. That would be a valid way of doing things. But so would be having the paladin fall for this sort of thing. And the amount of argument in this thread is a clear indicator that we're not talking about a fringe belief here.

>>47159655
Female humans could have up to 18/50 strength in 1E, and didn't have any penalties

>>47159706

>Admitted banditry
>pally lets him live
>pally fall for for letting an admitted bandit live

OR

>pally kills bandit
>pally falls for killing bandit

Sounds like the GM railroaded the pally into falling in a no win situation.

>>47159720
Well yes, of course, but the situation seems to imply that the PC is following a Good deity of some kind. Still, the fact that the GM apparently isn't using the situation to enrich the character through some RP with the deity and praying for forgiveness and shit...pretty basic stuff IMO and much better than just forcing them to fall.

>>47159635
>But it's certainly not ludicrous that murdering somebody who threw down arms and surrendered would be seen as a gross violation of the paladin's code.

Yeah, it is.
Lets think about this logically rather than emotionally for a second.
You (rhetorically speaking) are deleting the PC's class abilities.
Why?
Because you are vastly more stingy and less forgiving than Gygax, and consider Gygax's ideas of being nice to players and let them roleplay reasonably how they think their PC should, to have no bearing on a class he fucking created, that adheres to an alignment he fucking created.

And for what? Do you think the DM being an utter prick is going to enhance the game experience? DELETING a PC's whole fucking set of class abilities because your feelings are hurt and because you're drunk on power is a huge event in the campaign.

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>>47159164
>It's based on the code of conduct as decided by whatever god or gods the character is supposed to be representing, in universe.

No that's Clerics. Paladins don't have anything to do with the Gods, although many are big fans of the Gods anyway.

>>47159655
Approximates the bell curve of performance disparity between male and female athletes. Case in point: the US Under-17 Soccer Team plays the Women's National Team (the one that just won the Women's World Cup) and wins. Or fuck, look at the tranny competing in Women's MMA.

If that hurts your feelings, just discard it - it doesn't harm the rest of AD&D; however, it is a reasonable approximation.

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I think this might be the most detailed look into the Paladin's code that D&D has.

>>47159761
>Gygax being kind to players
I mean I'm sure your right but that sounds like the largest joke I've ever heard.

>>47159759

Speculation: theirs no proof the pally would of fallen had he left the bandit live. but their is proof that the pally falls for killing an opponent who surrendered.

>>47159769

Heironeous

You forgot gods that are paladins.

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People seem to think that a paladin is some jesus like figure all forgiving all knowing.
That's not true, he's not even a priest. In fact he could be dumb as a brick, there's a reason you had to go to a cleric to repent sins and not just directly pray yourself.

If you are in fact lawful good , the just thing is to kill the bandit. The above and beyond truly paladin thing is to convert and then kill.

>>47159685
We're talking about Gygax's opinion stated outside of official game books vs. something that's in the PHB. Besides, one thing does not impact the other. You can certainly argue that the paladin's behavior is not chaotic, but you can't argue that it's okay for them to commit chaotic acts.

>>47159635
your code != my code

>>47159713
>1. OP never said this was D&D

Yes he did.
>paladin
>falls to please the capricious DM

That's D&D. It might be a homebrewed abomination of D&D, but don't pretend to be retarded.

>>47159760

I'm just saying you could absolutely have a good god who in no way demanded mercy for those guilty of violent crime

>>47159796
He was actually known to go too easy on players, that's why he made the Tomb of Horrors and they loved it.

>>47159801
I see your Heironeous and raise you a Murlynd.

>Playing a paladin
>party rogue steals something
>I notice and don't give a fuck.
>My god doesn't give a fuck about theft she only cares for my upholding of nature.
>DM looks at me and says you gonna do something about this?
>About what? I dont give a fuck if the rogue steals. If I had my way I'd rip this city to the ground for simply using wooden building supplies
>DM starts rolling FOR MY FUCKING ACTIONS against the rogue
>literally playing for me
>Tell him to fuck off my god doesnt work like that so why should I care
>YOU'RE A PALADIN ANON YOU'RE SUPPOSE TO CARE
>Proceed to chew him out and explain to him the god i'm following THE GOD HE FUCKING CREATED doesnt give a fuck according to what he wrote
>Agrees and then proceeds to be asshurt/ passive aggressive the rest of the night

Fuck off daniel. You fucking cunt.

>>47159798
But is like the classic orc baby, but just spiced up a bit, another damned if you do, damned if you dont, considering that bandit was probably going to be that annoying reoccurring enemy.

>>47159769

Depends on the system and setting, but in general paladins are lot more like clerics in more modern games

>>47159698
>(but actually that would in and of itself be perfectly just)
nope attacking a paladin is a strange thing in itself so the paladin should have investigate on his motive maybe the bbeg have his wife and kid in hostage

>possibly murdered innocent civilians
a paladin can't kill someone who have POSSIBLY done something wrong

and the harsh judgement is a trait of bad deity Yaezhing for exemple ....

>>47159827
Huh ok

>>47159835

Or one that could of been cast in shackles, watched at night, and then delivered to a local magistrate for fair and legal justice.

>>47159746

>but his word is not law

As far as treating players with a minimum level of courtesy and respect, its maybe not the law, but its common sense and basic decency, and ignoring it in this case does make one intrinsically an asshole.

Just imagine destroying a wizard PC's high level spellbook... solely because he hurt your feelings, no advance warning that you were going to hurt his feelings either.

>>47159083
The bandit has killed people, stolen, ruined lives, possibly raped and justice needs to be served. There does not need to be mercy shown.

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>>47159827
To bad I ain't not paladin of Murlynd

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>>47159847
Pretty crazy, huh?

>Murlynd is a handsome man dressed in worn leather and wears a hat of an unknown style. His weapons of choice are a pair of hand-held weapons that emit powerful projectiles. His holy symbol is a six-pointed star with rounded tips. His holy text is a pulp novel describing his exploits when he was just an adventurer.

>>47159865

Speculation: We don't know what the extent of the Bandits crimes were, he could of been brand new out for the first time.

This is why we have sense evil, which Op never said anything about using.

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>>47159877
>Not being a Paladin of Murlynd

Do you even Dakka?

>>47159724
This is /tg/, anything is easily turned into a subject of discussion. For it to be succesful bait in the usual 4chan sense, someone needs to get trolled, butthurt, booty blasted, rectally wrecked, anally annihilated if you will. So far this doesn't seem to be the case.

I once managed to do this, although, it wasn't even an attempt to troll, thus not actually bait. It did have the above effect though. It turned into several hundred post long thread in a very short amount of time. It got so bad that i was banned and the thread was deleted. I didn't even know what to say, so my only post was the OP.

The sad part is that was my most succesful thread ever.

I've stopped trying to make serious threads, nobody ever responds. Now i only shitpost.

>>47159065
And here we see lawful stupid in its natural habitat.

>>47159886
>speculation
I want the far left out of my table top

>>47159796
I phrased it like that to specifically point out that its appalling that being 500x more vindictive than Gygax is normal and "up to the DM". Well sure, but its still an act of extreme dickery and fiat.

>>47159038
But Paladins don't usually have strict monastic rules. The systems don't go into that because usually they'll depend on who the paladin worships or if they follow good or lawful a bit more.

There's a quote somewhere that I can't place that says something like morality is a good tool, but sometimes you need coldhearted ruthlessness. And an important idea I take away from that is that both can be justified, but they have to be used correctly.

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>>47158822
Don't know what the Gygax caps are, but I have this.

>>47159925
Oh that dumb image.

I love Lawful Good, but seeing people post shit like that makes it a laughing stock.

>>47159844

>nope attacking a paladin is a strange thing in itself so the paladin should have investigate on his motive

"Should have"? According to whom?

> maybe the bbeg have his wife and kid in hostage

Oh yeah totally an ancient lich kidnapped a bandit's kid and said he'd turn her into a zombie if bandit guy didn't go jump a random paladin he never met, and not that the bandit wanted his expensive shit.

>a paladin can't kill someone who have POSSIBLY done something wrong

By possibly I meant from our understanding of it. Obviously the player in question would have a better understanding of the situation. That being said, attacking people for their money is bad in and of itself even if it didn't progress to outright murder.

This is the reason I don't play paladin, I can't trust my gm not to be the retard that causes me to fall for one thing like this, even though it's supposed to usually be a total turn from ones God/morals.

>>47159855
Wizards don't have a strict code of conduct. Paladin's are fucking bullshit, but this isn't exactly coming out of left field. We don't know how the situation in the OP went down (assuming it's not entirely made up), so we don't know what kind of warning the paladin's player had. If the repercussions for this type of thing were never laid out ahead of time and the GM didn't warn him in the moment, then it clearly is bullshit, but that's making some pretty narrow assumptions.

>>47159813
Sorry. You don't get to combine multiple editions to make the most shitty, restrictive, nerfed paladin imaginable.

>but you can't argue that it's okay for them to commit chaotic acts.

Yes, I can. If this was 1e, this wouldn't be a conversation. Kill the orc babies is a-ok. Read the description of Lawful Good in the DMG. All you have to do is believe, to a reasonable degree, that the bandit's existence was a detriment to society.

>>47159844
>bandit attacks someone
>hey, this is an unprecedented situation!
>what could his motive possibly be!?
Are you on drugs?

>>47159713
We can dismiss it because not everyone has to follow that as their vision if a paladin or Lawful Good character. You don't even want the Arthurian knights you just want Gallahad and a caricature of modern morality. Even if we stick to Christianity those who fall under Good killed. That seems to be a foreign concept these days. Good is not soft, dumb, or weak.

>>47159902

No, lawful stupid is letting a bandit drive the knife he keeps in his boot into your neck because you were too much of a gullible coward to finish the job

>>47159917
In retrospect it makes sense that it was never really gygax himself but his reputation that ruined a generation of GMs.

>>47159908

Your political bias has nothing to do with this conversation.

Did the paladin kill and unarmed opponent? Yes

Did the opponent surrender? Yes

Is that acceptable by the standards of lawful good? In most settings No

Are Paladins held to a lawfull good standard in most games? Yes

Did the Paladin have options other than killing the bandit, based on what we know from the op's own words? Yes

So yeah, the common bandit who threw down his weapon and begged, actually begged to be taken prisoner, was murdered.

I'm not talking about an obvious evil like a lich, or a red dragon, I'm talking about a guy who for all we know, turned to banditry to feed his family, We don't have a sense motive to confirm if he was being honest, we don't have a sense evil, to confirm the bandit was actually evil.

We have a paladin that murdered and unarmed man. I would have made that same call as op's Gm but with an "Are you sure?" first.

>>47159902
You have it backwards. Lawful Stupid is siding with not killing the bandit or Stupid Good. Take your pick.

>>47159821
>That's D&D.
Could also be Pathfinder, or Hackmaster, or, you know, JUST ABOUT ANY OTHER FANTASY RPG OUT THERE.
twit

>>47159908
This is the thing: the OP is portraying the greentext as obvious bullshit, but it's not. It could be bullshit but isn't necessarily. Without more detail, we can't say for sure. And that, by itself, undermines the OP's intention to show you something that's obvious That GM territory.

>>47158864
>If you drop your weapon because combat isn't going your way, I don't consider you unarmed
you're wrong to consider it that way

>>47159844
Attacking a paladin is guaranteed enough to kill a thief. Again, assuming a chivalrous knight style paladin.

>a paladin can't kill someone who have POSSIBLY done something wrong

He attacked him, therefore he deserves to die. He deserves a clean death and nothing more.

The idea that paladins must be weak willed, spineless, soft creatures that can be attacked, freely and at will, by any evil being, so long as they surrender by the time the paladin enters melee, has to be buried.

The great irony here is that the people who actually believe paladins must be spineless weaklings are the same people who are ultra-vindictive DMs, ready to steal a PC's class abilities on a whim.

>>47160036

>Is that acceptable by the standards of lawful good? In most settings No

ACCORDING TO WHOM

>>47159798

By that logic pallys could never kill anyone if they just say "I DROP WEAPON PLSE DONT KILL ME!!!"

>rape 1,000 wimmins
>murder the population of 10 towns
>worship the arch evil god of the setting
>pally comes to fight me
>pally gains upper hand
>throw sword down
>PLSE DONT KILL ME I BEG FOR MERCY!!!!

whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

You let one evil doer live why not let the other one?

>>47160067
Nigga might have a hidden weapon, I know I would if I was a thief, and not stupid.

Don't listen to these beta faggots who've never played a character with true honor. Everyone knows the correct thing to do with a surrendered foe is let them kill themselves and then behead them.

>>47159065
There is more to being a Paladin than the Lawful good alignment.

>>47160082
his wife's son

>>47160002
The passage: "they don't fall from doing chaotic acts. PERIOD." is a pretty strong, absolute one. If it were put less emphatically, there might be room for argument, but clear 1st and 2nd AD&D together (and I'm guessing OD&D as well) break the PERIOD rule. At the very most you can claim that don't fall from chaotic acts with caveats.

>>47159988
>but that's making some pretty narrow assumptions.

Virtually no player will delete his character after the DM has warned him, but the DM did owe him a clear, advance warning.

Ergo, the DM was a spiteful vindictive prick (if he exists).

DMs like this deserve parties full of neutral evil spellcasters.

>>47159966
>"Should have"? According to whom?
his own fucking deity who grant him ability like sense evil

>Oh yeah totally an ancient lich kidnapped a bandit's kid and said he'd turn her into a zombie if bandit guy didn't go jump a random paladin he never met, and not that the bandit wanted his expensive shit.
nope but a bandit chief can have just taken one member of each familiy in some village and force the men to work for him

>By possibly I meant from our understanding of it. Obviously the player in question would have a better understanding of the situation. That being said, attacking people for their money is bad in and of itself even if it didn't progress to outright murder.
yep but for most of the good deity only murder deserve murder

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>Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

>Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

>punish those who harm or threaten innocents

From 3.5 SRD

>>47160096
Not according to most people in this thread, who seem to think you have to play the alinement and not a character

>>47160096

You're right. You gotta follow god's rules and use your powers to protect that which they want protected and destroy that which they want destroyed. And certainly, depending on the setting and the god some paladins should fall in this situation. Others should not.

>>47160110
And fuck, 3.5 is arguably the most restrictive with regards to this.

>>47160036
>Did the paladin kill and unarmed opponent?
No. Throwing down a weapon doesn't make you an unarmed opponent in the traditional sense of the term.

>Did the opponent surrender?
No. They offered their surrender. It was not accepted.

>Is that acceptable by the standards of lawful good?
That's why we're having a disagreement.

>Did the Paladin have options other than killing the bandit, based on what we know from the op's own words?
No information provided.

>So yeah, the common bandit who threw down his weapon and begged, actually begged to be taken prisoner, was murdered.
That's your opinion. Mine is that he was killed in combat. Your opinion doesn't automatically win.

>>47160110
But anon he dropped one of his weapons, that means he's free to do whatever he wants!

>>47160005
>bandit attacks someone
not "someone "a paladin a guy who devoted his life to be a god war machine

>>47159466
>paladin who beats evil motherfuckers to death with his gauntlets because they aren't worth tarnishing his sword
brutal

>>47160099
OD&D flat states that any chaotic act immediately causes the paladin to fall, with no potential of regaining the paladin status.

1e has this:
Law and good deeds are the meat and drink of paladins. If they ever
knowingly perform an act which is chaotic in nature, they must seek a high
level (7th or above) cleric of lawful good alignment, confess their sin, and do
penance as prescribed by the cleric. If a paladin should ever knowingly and
willingly perform an evil act, he or she loses the status of paladinhood
immediately and irrevocably. All benefits are then lost, and no deed or
magic can restore the character to paladinhood; he or she is everafter a
fighter.

2e has a whole book on paladining, see >>47159786.

>>47160104

>his own fucking deity who grant him ability like sense evil

How do you know what his deity says about it? Is his deity a fucking autist, because you make him sound that way!

>nope but a bandit chief can have just taken one member of each familiy in some village and force the men to work for him

In which case the guy wouldn't have said "I have a wife and kid" but "they made me do it, they HAVE my wife and kid." But he didn't, because he was just some fucking bandit who was scared of the whirlwind he reaped.

>yep but for most of the good deity only murder deserve murder

Killing a criminal isn't murder. And where are you getting "most".

>>47160099
Okay. If this was AD&D we wouldn't be having the conversation.

Lets put it this way: >>47159351 this guy's wrong, flat out, indisputably, incorrect.

>>47160101
Please. Tons of players will heedlessly ignore GM warnings. I can't tell you how many times I've seen players go ahead even after a GM says "are you sure you want to do that?" or "I wouldn't do that if I were you." Hell, I had a player who refused to listen to me when I tried to explain that dark elves in this setting weren't the irredeemable embodiment of evil and basically forced a civil war in the party because what he believed that what he read in some supplement superseded what he was told by the GM.

>>47160110
>punish those who harm or threaten innocents
punish not kill ...

>>47160162
Wildly, wildly different concept of Chaotic than in the post that was being discussed, dude. He was using Chaotic in the sense of "eh doesn't obey the rules I guess maybe?"

Why are we citing older editions when we moved on from them for good reason
I.e.
>one singular act can cause a paladin to fall, which can be oh so easily abused by that gm
>>47160184
Bitch punishment can include execution

>>47159083
You're executing him for being a bandit, doesn't matter if he surrendered or not if you're LG.

>>47160169
That post you said is flat out wrong reads:
>Nobody is arguing that it would be Evil. They're arguing that it would be un-Lawful on the Law-Chaos axis.
But people are arguing that it would be un-Lawful.

>>47160087


That argument is as stupid as the people saying that if gay people can marry than it should be legal to marry my toaster.

I'm pretty sure that someone who raped a thousand people and murdered 10 towns worth of people probably would of been more well know than "random nameless bandit" The paladin would of been well aware of the person's crimes, hell he'd probably be their because of that one person. That's different.

The unknown bandit, who's crimes are not fully known, who dropped his weapon, could of easily been slapped in irons, sleep spelled or one of a hundred other means, restrained for trial. or even had a basic sense evil cast on them to confirm that he's secretly a genocidal murder rapist *before* being butchered like cattle while unarmed.

>>47159210
That's actually not a bad way of doing it. Part of the bad-ness is that you're leaving a wife and child without a husband and father, but if you take care of them somehow, it's not as evil.

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>inquisitor of ragathiel
>only care about vengeance
>have no paladin code
>have no mercy
>can't fall

No brakes on this train baby. We ride until we die.

>>47159038
>if you don't want to be bound by strict monastic rules, be a Cleric
1.21 niggawats.
If the gods in your setting don't have Codes of Conduct for all their followers, then they're shit gods and your setting is probably shit too.

>>47160228
I'm sure the gm would find some way to ruin it, seeing as they wanted the pally to fall.

>>47160223

Banditry is in and of itself a crime deserving of death. The length and scope of his career is irrelevant other than how cautious the paladin should be in his approach to dispatching him.

>>47160239
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kepM786FU54

>Rational mildly polite discussion of alinement
Bravo op

>>47160196

It also can include being tried in the lawfull courts of the land and hung once proven guilty.

Again we don't know the law of the land were talking here, clearly the GM's setting doesn't allow for butchering an unarmed man as a lawful act.

Also at the end of the day, we are all forgetting, it's the GM's game, the GM's gods. Rule Zero, do you use it?

>>47160223
Why would you need to restrain him for trial? He tried to murder an ordained member of your clergy - namely, you.

>>47159484
You die without a saving throw because you, the player here in reality, did not recognize the symptoms of arsenic poisoning in time.

-Gary Gygax

>>47160176
I have DMed for well over 20 years. I have DMed for the sensible and the senseless, the most randumb xD derpy doos imaginable. I have never seen a paladin player who will delete his character when I warn him ahead of time. I have never seen a paladin player who will not pause if I IMPLY something might be against what paladins are expected of. Nobody I have ever played with in 20+ years has ever seen anything remotely like what you describe either.

I have seen virtually every form of player stupidity on the planet. The most seasoned of players charging a nonhostile 7+7 HD monster at level 1. Wandering away from the party to fight dens full of spiders alone. Throwing your sword away mid fight and punching an armed enemy for no reason while you have no unarmed combat faculty.

I have never seen nor head nor roleplayed anyone who has seen a paladin player who deleted his character after the DM informed him that his character will be deleted for doing an act. Ever. In 20+ years. DMing and playing, I should say.

>are you sure you want to do that?

Not compatible. If chivalrous knights acting like chivalrous knights hurts your feelings, you, the DM, flat out owe the player a warning in advance of the act. Just tell him, "Hey man, this really triggers me, your character will be irrevocably ruined if you kill the bandit." Its basic courtesy.

>>47160223
What if bandits are executed in this fantasy milieu? This person just attempted to murder several people to boot.

Surely, the Paladin can act as judge, jury, and executioner here?

>>47160282
Isn't rule zero for everyone to have fun? That doesn't sound fun

>>47159038
Druids can kill a dog that bites them, what the fuck are you on about you retard?

>>47160162

Chaotic as in not thinking "This land has a court of justice system, this asshole surrendered to me, nothing is saying we can sleep spell him, strip him to his loin cloth, and march his ass in town for a nice lawful hanging"

>>47160110
This.

JUDGE. JURY. EXECUTIONER.

What do you dense fuckers >>47160036 , not get about that?

I am not a priest. I am not a modern day cop. I'm a paladin.

If someone tries to kill me (especially since I'm Good. What the fuck are you doing that for?) I can judge them. I do not need to accept their surrender. I do not need to spare them because they begged. If we're going for a Christian anology, and I think it's only slightly fair because someone keeps going 'muh arthurian knights', you will not be spared judgement after death if you sinned horribly because you have wife and kids. You know who else had a spouse and children? Everyone you killed and stole from.

Take them prisoner? For what? To waste some guard's time setting up the gallows?

You fail to realize taking them to the authorities is redundant. I am an authority.

>>47160304
And this thread is infested with people DRASTICALLY more vindictive than that, like OP's DM. Let that sink in.

>>47160196
>punish those who harm or threaten innocents
>Bitch punishment can include execution
ok so in your flawless logic even a threat deserve execution ? you must play some magnificent paladin:
-merchant" you will die if you don't buy me this whatever for your journey!"
-paladin "how dare you threat me ! by the power of my church i sentence you to die!

>>47160360
Holy slippery slope, batman!

That's where the Good comes into play and as long as I'm being Good someone trying to fucking KILL me is comitting evil.

>>47160360
Depending on who that paladin is, if he's high enough in the food chain, fuck yeah he could, though obviously he'd probably not, considering he'd have a brain and enough self restraint to just ignore that obviously retarded merchant.

>>47159761
>a class he fucking created
Gygax didn't create Paladins, Charlemagne did.

>>47160334

And guess what senpai, a quick search on the history of armed banditry reveals that the customary punishment was execution.

Funny that.

>>47160399
Which has little do with the class besides the name.

>>47160268

Speculation, you don't know the law of the GM's setting.

>>47160294

Because that's what a "Good" person, a person who personifies goodness and justice would do.

Not that i wouldn't, again strip him down to his loin cloth, chain him trice, and make sure he's never left out of sight of at least 2 PC's, because I too have Dickheads for GM's

>>47160321

I don't believe so, if the laws of the land do not implicitly allow a paladin to act as "Judge jury and executioner" then murder it still murder.

>>47159501
Pretty much this, only 4e did bind you by the god, and 3e could let you be a paladin without following a specific god, and their definition of Lawful made it so you could reasonably get away with following a moral code.

>>47160334
This. Paladins are the hand of their God, sent to deliver said God's wrath to the wicked. They bring hope to the hopeless, and justice to the unjust. A paladin's not meant to bring people in for trial - God is the judge, they're the executioner.

>>47160360
You're comparing apples to oranges here

>>47160360

>merchant shilling his goods is an equivalent situation to murderous bandit

>>47160250

You don't know that, your speculating on the GM's intent based on a 3 line green text post from an assblasted player.

>>47160249
Cleric codes of conduct are fuckin' nothing compared to paladin's codes of conduct.

The paladin code of conduct:
1. Don't trigger the DM
2. seriously don't
3. if you hurt his feelings, he WILL autismrage and delete your character
4. he won't even necessarily tell you in advance that it will happen
5. also there's a shitload of tactics you can't use

The cleric code of conduct for, say, Boccob, one of the more powerful deities:
1. who the fuck cares, my title is literally The Uncaring
2. make more magic items and research new spells (ie. what you were going to do anyway)

>>47160325

Well that's because in that case, the dog is not considered and intelligent creature, and the druid is acting in self defense.

>>47160411
Historically, armed bandits had a "kill on sight" legal status or were executed after being captured. In the pseudo-medieval fantasy milieu, it is not an unfounded assumption that anyone could act as judge, jury, and executioner if attacked by armed bandits.

>>47160411
But what's the point of a trial? I know he tried to murder me. That's a crime worthy of death. What's the point of convincing a random mortal authority of the same thing when I could just summarily execute him? This isn't a modern campaign, you know.

>>47160457
B-but muh Knights in shining armor anon

>>47160399
Yeah... no. The class. As in D&D class?

And if you want to be an anal nitpicker, Charlemagne had even less restrictive rules as far as killing, so...

>>47160404
when? and where? cause in greece in 1000BC it was legal to fuck a dog in a public place ....

>>47160334
It goes without saying that the punishment should fit the crime. If your paladin hands out "justice" that Hammurabi would find overly severe, he's a pretty fucking far cry from lawful good.

That applies to killing people in cold blood. If you're killing monsters or engaged in mortal combat, you're also good to go.

>>47160046
>Could also be D&D, or D&D, or, you know, JUST ABOUT ANY OTHER THIRD PARTY D&D DERIVATIVE OUT THERE.
Literally what you just said.

>>47160413
Irrelevant nitpick:
1e is a debatable exception, solely because literally everyone in 1e had a god, even atheists, and could fall to a limited degree. I have always ignored that rule. However, it says nothing of this iirc in the player's handbook.

>>47160475
Nice counter argument there, you really proved him wrong with that dog fucking example man.

>>47160457

Were not talking historical, were talking about a Fantasy realm that can have as much to do with history as the vast bulk of this thread with a willing vagina.

GM made the setting, and the rules, I'm not saying that if he didn't warn the player that he could fall from than he's a total dick.

But in the magical kingdom the GM is playing, Banditry may infact not be an automatic death sentence if they surrender.

Or, TL;DR keep your "real world history" out of my fantasy game.

>>47160475
>http://europeanhistory.boisestate.edu/latemiddleages/society/breakinthelaw.shtml
> If you did, you were declared "outlaw"; that is, you were outside the protection of the law. You could be killed on sight with impunity.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banditry
About 5,000 bandits were executed by Pope Sixtus V in the five years before his death in 1590

>>47160445

Druids don't have anything remotely equivalent. The druid just has to "revere nature" in some sense. Kill a dog for biting him? A druid can torch or blight a whole town to death, all the sweet innocent livestock, kitties, puppies, babies, etc., because he views them as "unnatural" or whatever.

>>47160484
One, you know nothing about Hammurabi.

Two, executing a killer is pretty common throughout all of human history. Punishing someone for an attempted crime that was foiled as if they'd succeeded is also pretty common.

You're not killing someone in cold blood. You're executing a would-be murderer for the crime of trying to murder you. There is nothing wrong with that.

ITT: Several well argued reasons to never play DnD as long as one lives.

>>47160497
>Nice counter argument there, you really proved him wrong with that dog fucking example man.
yeah i hoped someone clever just say where and when cause banditry have been punished by many thing throught history: forced work, slavery, penal military service ....

>>47160484
>Hammurabi would find overly severe

Killing bandits is not along those lines.

>>47160525
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Kelly
Oh shit, this bandit got killed by the lawmen

Shall I continue?

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>>47160334

>>47160525
>Pope Sixtus V
please tell me there's a Sixtus VI

>>47160558
Hey, I've got one, and >>47160484 should really like it. From the Code of Hammurabi:
>Ex. Law #22: "If any one is committing a robbery and is caught, then he shall be put to death."

>>47159210
Gee, it's like they have infinite space and desire to accept more people in such institutions. Especially such base people.

They probably have all the layperson help they need at any nearby convents, and it's going to be a bit of a pain in the ass to push the issue of a totally unqualified peasant boy as a squire.

I think taking them on as a kind of ongoing project is probably acceptable penance. See the widow remarried or at least done well by her relatives, and deal with the kid until he's of age. (Not 18, probably. More like something in the mid-late 20's by medieval standards.) It would be good for the Paladin to make sure he did well by himself.

>>47160558
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_and_Clyde#Deaths

Well fuck me, these bandits were ambushed and killed by the law too.

>>47160436
shit DMs running shit settings
a diety's code of conduct applies to all who gain spells from them: paladins, clerics, flavored souls, archivists, wizards and sorcerers with divine patronage, everybody. And in addition to shit like "Don't kill orc babbies" and "lol go ahead kill prisoners" it should have bullshit nonsense like "don't fuck pork or eat white women" that just gets in the way while you're trying to be a good little divine lackey. It adds flavor to the setting, makes the holy malarkey feel much more realistic.

>>47159524
If he was down on his luck and shit happened he shouldn't of turned to crime im a paladin not a therapist he broke the law the punishment is death

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Face_Nelson

Oh geez, this bandit was killed by the lawmen rather than brought to trial.

>>47160525
did you even read it ...
>murder was a matter for royal authority. This didn't mean you went before the king or anything. It did mean that your case would be heard by a justice of the peace, who visited your village twice a year.

>It was no good running away. If you did, you were declared "outlaw"
about running away....

>Sometimes, the guilty man was caught in the act. The village could then rise up against the felon and either apprehend him or drive him out
not kill him ...

>>47160553
Just shouting about dog fucking won't get you a serious answer

>>47160540
>>47160557
>>47160590
Don't get me wrong. I'm not actually arguing against the OP. But the post I was responding to indicated that a Paladin can hand out any punishment to any criminal, no exceptions. Which is pointedly bullshit.

>>47160641
Yes. And you chose to ignore the sourced point which defangs your argument - that it was legally acceptable to kill outlaws.

>>47160484
We're not playing in modern times though. Yes D&D is not necessarily a historical setting but it still has some semblance of a time when people carried knives around as tools and as self defense. A time when jails as we know them were not very easy to run and were pretty expensive. A time when the countryside had a higher murder rate than most modern cities.

Here's another thing. If someone draws a weapon on you then they intend to kill you. Attempted murder is a really bad crime. That's it. They cannot complain about the consequences.

Weapons are not a joke.

Trying to kill someone is serious.

Even fist fights are incrediblely dangerous and it's weapons were made so you had an edge and wouldn't get beaten to death. There is a lot of uncertainty you create when you're just assaulting someone. What's the guarantee they will stop after you're beaten and at their mercy? Would this surrending man have killed you if you lost to him? Should such a clear danger to the community be allowed to live? It takes a dangerous mentality to attack someone like that. People did not mess around with this stuff back then. It was always better safe than sorry and to dissuade future wrongdoings on this level by removing the threat permanently.

>>47160636
you are judge dredd not a paladin ....

>>47160637
>>47160603
>>47160558

Oh hey, real world examples not brought to justice by god powered magic knights who were held to a much higher standard of law, and goodness beyond that of mere common men.

Nice try though.

>>47160334
This guy knows his shit.

Paladins are literally representatives of gods of goodness, and granted power and authority by those gods.

You know what those gods also tend to have in their realms?

Justice, courage, combat, and war.

The bandit attacks you? You gave him a chance to surrender before the fight started? He declined?

Then remove this evil from the world. Do your job.

>>47160661
outlaw was a term for defining whose who try to escape judgement by running away not specificaly bandit ....

Paladins, as agents of law and justice are supposed to dispense justice whenever it needs to be done. If the punishment for banditry is execution, then paladin would actually be less LG for sparing him.

>>47160581
Actually, during the Papal Conclave Interregnum of 1602, there were temporarily several Popes of overlapping term, some of whom used the same titles. Afterwards, the false popes were given forgiveness for their heresy, because many of them occupied politically important positions in the Catholic church, and were retroactively declared to be Rote Practitioners, rather than false popes. The Conclave Interregnum ended with a brutal melee in the chapel, during which at one of the false popes who had claimed the name you mentioned was, in fact, standing on another and kicking him in the face.

I guess it's true what they say, you can always get your kicks on Rote Sixtus VI.

>>47160628
>shit DMs running shit settings

you mean virtually all the settings that ever were and are but your precious snowflake setting?

Because no, cleric codes of conduct are nothing compared to paladin codes of conduct, and I have yet to see a campaign setting where all or most of the gods have extensive restrictions. Usually there's a very vague "dogma" requirement.

>>47160682
Congratulations: you're a Lawful Neutral cleric and not a Paladin.

>>47160739
Good thing I'm playing 5e

>>47160577
My god appointed me. So yes, I am. That's what a paladin is. It's not the modern policeman class, it's not the priest class, it's not even the cleric class. It might make some people uncomfortable because such a thing doesn't exist today but there's no two ways about it. That's what they do.

>>47160739
How do you fail to understand paladins or LG in general this hard?

i found OP paladin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MIzjQZo8Y4

>>47160765
Because someone's sensibilities were triggered

>>47160739
god damn you would be weeping in short order if you ever played OSR
and your nonsense doesn't apply to 4e or 5e

thus you must be a Pathfailure

>>47160739
He gave him a chance to surrender before the fighting started, so he's good, not neutral.

>>47160739
See >>47160667

>>47160782
Obviously all the issues here are caused by people not understanding that 3.pf alinements are awful

I joked about this earlier, but seriously, "honor" changes from culture to culture, to huge degrees. A samurai that *didn't* execute a fallen foe would Fall, as well.

>>47160799

Did he? or are you pulling this out of your ass

The entire op post.
>the bandit is begging for mercy
>I got a wife and kid!
>kill him
>GM makes me fall

>>47158864
This reasoning here proves you are a shitty roleplayer. If you fell, you were Good. If you were Good, you would take the bait. You not only did NOT take the bait (which could have been explained as a lapse of judgment, making for a great character arc), you even have an underlying creed that makes you as a person not inclined to be a Good character because you obviously can't separate your own beliefs from your character's morals and ideals. Either change your playstyle, or roll something more along your beliefs.

Fucking hate it when a player rolls a Super Good character, then freaks when they get punished for going outside their character. Dumbass. Alternatives include:
>Make him pay a fine
>Take his hand as punishment, then heal him
>Ask him to serve you to atone or repay you
>Arrest him or hand him over to authorities
You're the kind of player I hate GMing for. You roll up a character but have no clue how to play the archetype in storytelling.

>>47160845
I don't understand how the bandit saying he has a family means anything anyway considering he could well be lying, as most bandits would.

>>47160856
Someone was bad touched by a paladin once or twice.

>>47160836
My PURE speculation:

Its easier to understand when one realizes that surrendering disgraces you and means you have no honor, begging for mercy is humiliating, living as a cripple after being defeated is humiliating, etc. so its semilogical. Its euthanasia.

>>47160861

"What is Sense Motive and Detect Evil for 300 Alex?"

The tools were right there, it's not the GM's fault the player doesn't use them?

>>47160874
he said if he laid hands on me it would feel good...

>>47160856
>Super Good means "agrees with my personal hot opinions"
As expected of a Pathfailure.

>>47160845
Responding to >>47160739 who was responding to >>47160682. Learn to reading comprehension.

>>47160856
If the bandit pinged evil and already tried to kill the PC, I don't see where executing the bandit becomes evil.

Paladin's aren't confessors and therapists; they're a god's special forces. I would tend to say that the above-and-beyond Good thing to do would be to try and somehow ensure that the wife and kids are cared for.

>>47160902
>Chaotic neutral bandit and sense motive fails
What now?

Killing someone because they behaved badly is nonsense. They'll never learn, that way. No, what you do is each time someone behaves badly, you cut a part off, until they learn to behave better.

>>47159484
This is accurate and correct. However, does a failed bandit attempt really justify executing him after he realizes he dun goofed? Wouldn't arresting him, or maiming him, have been a better punishment? Personally like maiming people.
>Tried to rob me
>I remove a finger from each member of the bandit group equal to the number of bandits.
>More than nine? I take your hands.
>Now face the shame of those who see you. Let your hands never steal a coin again.

>>47160845
Yes, because you said the guy who gave him a chance to surrender first was Lawful Neutral. You're mixing OP with anon's scenario.

Also, a plead for mercy does not have to be heeded.

Go ahead. Tell me. Why is that a necessity? Why is someone who used a weapon on a Good aligned person and on innocent people, who also have family, somehow free of their sins because they don't want to die?

>>47160673
Judge Dredd is what a good paladin is, that should never be questioned

>>47160915

I think the main issue is that we have nothing suggesting that the Paladin used detect evil on the Bandit.

>>47160935

Then you don't kill him because you don't know if he's being honest or not, and you now know he's not evil.

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>>47160856
>how dare you play a character in a way I wouldn't!?
>only characters who follow my script are valid!
>don't you dare come to my table with any ideas of your own!
Sounds like it just proves you're a shitty DM, fampaire.

>>47160945
Does murder justify execution? Because that's what the bandit was attempting to do: murder in cold blood for presumably financial gain.

>>47160969
But anon, CN automatically deserves death, every paladin knows that.

>>47160908
More like his reasoning needs to remain at LEAST questionable. I get that I could be wrong, but that's beside the point. The point is that a player can be creative in their punishment of some lowly bandit for his attempted crime; he doesn't have to execute him, and thus avoids any trouble with the GM.

>>47160945
See

>>47160334
>>47160667

It's already too late if you have to be judged by a paladin a lot of the time. Especially if you tried to kill them. Attempted murder is not a laughing matter. Weapons aren't toys.

>>47160969
He is a fucking bandit. Purely based on his job, he is worthy of death. He murders people and takes their shit for a living. You are irresponsible if you let him survive.

>>47160964

I could swear he was nicer in the comics than in the remake.

>>47160996
b-but muh noble highwayman

>>47160986

Oh wait, Detect evil doesn't tell you what his actual alignment is, it's a binary "Yes or no" answer on the evil question. So unless your meta gaming, you don't know he's CN.

>>47160996

Clearly not in the GM's setting otherwise the pally wouldn't be taking fighter levels now.

>>47161009
Holy shit anon just take a joke you don't always have to be right.

>>47160969
I'm throwing out pinging evil as something to make it drastically less ambiguous. I do, however, know that this is beyond the bounds of the scenario as written by OP.

>>47161022
Clearly they are because they have weapons. I'm going to say it a bunch in the thread until it sinks in. Weapons aren't toys. Attempted murder is a serious crime.

>Subdue female BBEG, gonna kill her
>Begs and pleads, offers money or loot, cries
>Finally as I'm just about to kill her, says she'll give sexual favors to live

What would you do? Our last game ended on this, still thinking I should kill her, but then again making a sex slave out of the former BBEG sounds rather tempting if only as a comeuppance.

>>47160874
Honestly hate Paladins because
>They NEVER mesh with the group
>Always played by guys who can't be Lawful.
I have seen ONE good Paladin, and it was really amazing how creative this guy was in remaining Lawful Good while still accomplishing his goals. In my opinion, the BEST Paladins are players who play misguided or religious characters who justify everything they do. The character's reasoning may be flawed, but this allows the player to do a lot of stuff that we as gamers know is wrong, but his character justifies over and over until he falls. That's usually the best time to drop that Paladin to create a new bad guy. It's story, and players forget that they are a part of writing it too.

>>47160945
The moment a knight of the God of Good is facing you down is the moment you should realize you dun fucked up. Waiting until after he's stabbed you either means you don't actually care that you fucked up, you just care that you're not able to get away with fucking up, or that you're an imbecile. In the first case, executing you is better for society. In the second, it's better for the gene pool.

>>47158864
It's called surrender. Paladins accept it you mong, to do otherwise is slaughter.

>>47161052
Kill her, she'll probably do something to fuck you over(lel) if you don't.

>>47160915
I missed the part where the Bandit was declared Evil. If he was, smite that motherfucker. He's doe something to make him Evil. If Neutral, use judgment.

>>47161076
Follow the quote chain, dumbass.

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>Bandit
>begging for mercy
>wife and child

And how many of the men he has robbed and killed could claim the same? How many widows and orphans has he created? Did he ever show any mercy to any of the men that asked it of him? As soon as he began preying on the lives of others he lost the right to live.

>>47159484
If you play your paladins like you're the fucking Punisher you're gonna fall and that's it.

>>47161039

Well if he pings evil, then by all means paladin away, taking out a confirmed evil is better than cutting down a "suspected but unproven evil" because "He's a bandit, all bandits are evil, they are never desperate impoverished farmers or anything"

>>47161052
>Finally as I'm just about to kill her, says she'll give sexual favors to live
>implying no los dos
You can kill her AND fuck her. Gentle repose, my man.

Stealing from townsfolk and farmers is evil. Drawing weapons on said folk is evil. Making that your living is evil. Attempted murder is evil.

Clearly he will ping neutral. Genius.

>>47161085

Re-read the op's post it didn't say

>the bandit is begging for mercy
>I got a wife and kid!
>detected evil on him
>kill him
>GM makes me fall

>>47161060
You don't get to surrender after you've drawn a weapon. You surrender beforehand, when the Paladin tells you to surrender or face justice for your crimes. Once you draw your weapon, you don't get to change your mind.

>>47161106
Can't knock her up that way though. A sadistic part of me wants to render her pregnant and subservient. Basically turn the evil threat to the lands into a housewife.

>>47161067
To be fair it wouldn't be a situation where my guy bangs her and then lets her free. He'd basically have her unarmed and restrained in some way, always with him.

>>47160093
Like seppuku? That could be cool.

>This is your only chance. Die with honor, or die without it.

>>47161091

And how is any of this confirmed if you don't accept his surrender and confirm it rather than make a blind, and in this case, costly to the paladin assumption that "He's automatically chaotic evil because he's a bandit."

>>47161102
Who cares if they're impoverished farmers? They're trying to fucking murder people.

Why do people think playing a murderhobo put coating with "I'm totally good and honourable, but I make assumptions and act dishonorably" will make them anything but a murderhobo?
You're still a murderhobo, not a paladin.

>>47161138
Your ideas of how surrender work are kinda silly.
If you're a paladin you must mantain the moral high ground, take the bandit as prisoner and have him stand trial at the nearest civilized settlement.

>>47161148
That's what the Romans and Greeks thought - that suicide was an honorable way out when you really fucked up.

>>47160974
>>47161054
See here. Mostly I just mean that players can't do Lawful Good even though they swear they can. Unless the whole party is Lawful Good, not doing something about the others is, by default, not Lawful Good, especially if any alignments are Evil, or players commit Evil acts. I prefer a player who plays Lawful Good, but a flawed character. Picture a religious nutcase who continually says God made him do it. THAT is fine with me because the player acknowledges he needs a reason for his character to do seemingly non-Good things. I hate it when a player does something, and then is shocked when he falls. It's like "I will totally reverse this fall but I haven't seen a reason your character can justify this." Player responds with "He's a threat!" I make him fall because he's trying to save his BUILD, not his character. Player says "My Paldain shouts to the skies above, 'Judge him kindly! I send him unto you!" I reverse the fall. Why? Simple. I don't give a shit about your build. I give a shit about the story. You're trashing my story with shitty reasons. So I take the story and adapt to your decisions. Nort my fault if you can't come up with a good reason for what you just did. How bout you ask me for a suggestion?

>>47161149
He's a bandit. It's in his job description. If he hasn't robbed or killed anyone, then it's his first day on the job.

Hmm; I wonder if there's any merit in playing a Paladin who constantly worries about falling.
"No, ma'am, I insist on giving you exact change" worried look to the heavens
"Wait friends, we do not yet know for certain that this is a place for misdeeds, and section 4 of my code has strong precedent for opposing trespass..."

>>47161152
They dindu nuffin; they were turning their life around.

>>47161052
Make her a sex slave.

>>47161153
Why would he need to stand trial? He tried to murder a holy man. He's guilty in the eyes of God.

>playing paladin
>acts like an american cop
PEW PEW shoot first think never, trials are for fags

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>>47158739
The problem is your idea of mercy is flawed.

Mercy isn't simply releasing him with no questions ask.

Mercy is accepting him as your prispner, juding him right then and there, and carrying out a punishment befitting the crime.

As a Paladin and an embodiment of the LAW, you are Judge, Jury, and Executioner. You can't simply skip the first two steps when convenient.

>>47161172

Then you murdered someone who's only crime is a bad life choice

>>47161153
>Why do people think playing a murderhobo put coating with "I'm totally good and honourable, but I make assumptions and act dishonorably" will make them anything but a murderhobo?

Because you equate "agrees with me" to "good."

>>47160984
Attempted murder. But yeah, I didn't see that detail, so kill him. The thing is, he's not a bandit then, but an assassin, and call me crazy but I feel like "kill this asshole if he doesn't manage to kill you" is sort of the unspoken agreement behind assassins. You don't LET an assassin walk away. Way different situation.

>I have a family
They can do better.

>>47161152

Speculation

>>47161195
>Mercy is accepting him as your prispner, juding him right then and there, and carrying out a punishment befitting the crime.

So much for whatever fucking quest they wanted to do.

>>47161220

Good /= Convient

>>47161199
On what planet is trying to stab someone to death and take their money just "a bad life choice"?

>>47161167
>not doing something about the others is, by default, not Lawful Good,
Other Good alignments, as well as Neutrals, are tolerable. Not preferred, but tolerable.

>>47161186
Decorum, fairness, honour in not merely executing an already captured criminal.
If you can't due to the context, I'll understand if you merely judge him on the spot, but on all other situations the best and most lawful action is not to execute an opponent who was surrendered & poses no more threat.

>>47161210
If you attack someone with a sword, you are trying to murder them. I don't care what you think you're doing, that is literally what you are doing.

>>47161233
Its the olden age, everybody trying to murder each other stop taking it so personal.

>>47161202
too much dredd comics brah?

>>47161231
Good /= Agreeing with your soft 21st century morals.
Good /= Being a meta-cop.

>>47161190
This is ironic because you want a paladin to be a modern cop from any country. Go play a modern setting if you want modern law procedures. Everything said so far has historical basis. If you tried to kill someone that was it. Weapons aren't toys. Attempted murder is a serious crime. You are a divinely appointed judge and executioner in practice.