/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

>>47096914
If you honestly want to do that "Make a Consilium" thing, it'd be best to sort out some page or something we can post characters on.

>From here, mages can either travel through tunnels in the stone into the Anima Mundi, or skirt its edge to walk into the Primordial realms containing humanity’s essential emotions and fears. These realms, representing the animal instincts of the human race, are poorly understood. Their inhabitants are typically monstrous and highly protective of their territory.

And here I was, thinking they forgot Beast all together.

>>>47096942
>Personally, I like Prime more for doing Green Lantern things than I do creating an army of illusions. If summoning hard light constructs is no longer a thing, I'll be disappointed, but not terribly put out.

Exactly what I liked. Now we just have a Prime 3 tass-object spell (simple objects only, no moving parts) and a Prime 5 Marionette equivalent that any other mage can steal from you if their nimbus touches it.

>>47096941
Probably. I figured it would be best to get a few first, and if I'd waited, the thread probably would have fell off the board by the time I was done. Whenever I'm the one making the threads, I have a tendency to spend ten or twenty minutes fussing with an image, and lose the "Next thread/Previous thread" connection.

Plus, the only ideas I have so far are a transgender Acanthus named Tiresias and a Cabal of super secretive Mages based on the Four Horsemen.

>>47096992
I don't need moving parts to create a sword out of Supernal Truth.
Marionette always took too long to get to, so I never set my sights on it. I don't even know if I put it on the spell list of the Proximus Dynasty I made of the kid who thought he was a superhero when his Dynasty birthrights started showing up.

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Daily reminder that Panopticon seers will use their prelacy, Spatial Sympathy, and Time Sympathy to kill you when you were a baby and there is fuck-all you can do about it.

>>47097052
So? Won't kill you.
And if you are in a city where that is a real risk of this happening, your Mentor probably cast a shielding spell of Time back in time on you as a baby the moment the Guardians found you. At the latest when you get recruited into an Order.

>>47097075
>if you are in a city

In a city? Who needs that when the prelacy lets you operate off an unknown connection?

>>47097088
You seem to have misunderstood what I was saying?
Why do you think their ability to operate off an unknown connection would matter when the point is that you'll have a shielding of time on you?

I can't believe Mind got its lunch eaten by Time.

Can someone explain the three dot attainment to me?

It lets them spend 1 Mana to specify the second arcarnum of the being they summon. But the summoning rules already say this, and you need three dots to select it as the second arcarnum anyway.

So the 3 dot attainment gives you nothing at all?

>>47096914
>BoweryDogs.JPEG

>>47097156
>Most of the people here are bitching because mages are not sll powerful anymore.
Also that they're too powerful, as shown >>47097052

I personally love that they're not as "powerful".

>>47094700
>To the Storyteller's credit
No offense to your Storyteller, dude, but that sounds like Shit GMing 101.

Yo guys, any advice on what I ought to pick for my starting Praxes? I've never played Mage before, so I'm having a hard time judging what spells would actually benefit from easier exceptional successes, especially at character creations when I'm only gonna be rolling a cool 3 dice on most spells..

For reference, my Arcana are Fate 2 / Time 2 / Space 2. But I don't even need specific suggestions necessarily, I'm at least just trying to get a general idea of where the Praxes would be most useful.

>>47097600
>when I'm only gonna be rolling a cool 3 dice on most spells

Say what?

>>47097600

The way I see it, the first Praxis is the spell that most basically defines your character. For example, since I wanted to play a modern day Alchemist, I went for Transmutation.

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Daily reminder from nWoD 2e to check your privilege.

>>47097750

>this thread's too slow, better rattle the culture war saber with a months old sidebar

When will both sides just start shooting each other already

Any good Death legacy I can pick up as an Obrimos that isn't the Tremere? I like the Tremere but it doesn't really fit with the game I'll be playing in.

>>47097628
Am I mistaken? Gnosis 1 + Arcana 2 = 3 dice.

>>47097653
So, basically, just pick something character-defining that appeals to you? I suppose that's not a bad way to approach it when I have no idea what I'm doing otherwise!

>>47097750
Holy shit, I can practically smell the piercings and jacket patches. That font looks like Werewolf but the colour looks like the corebook. What's that from?
Also, other than the RADICAL name for that Condition, I kinda like it. Though it's one of those Conditions that really only works when the system has some more mechanics for narrative conditions not given as part of a mechanic.

Like, when would I use that? "You're in a shitty job, so you have this condition"? That's possible, but not really a thing supported by the game. I love Conditions, but I really wish they more directly ripped off Fate's Aspects with how they're handled.

>>47097872
>Am I mistaken? Gnosis 1 + Arcana 2 = 3 dice.

Why no Yantras?

>>47097872
High Speech: 5 dice.
Magical Tool: 6 dice.
Willpower: 9 dice.

>>47097910
>>47097920
Ah, right. I guess I was just thinking about Instant casting, since I could probably only reliably bump that up to 4 dice without Willpower. It probably make more sense to use the Praxes on something I'll be ritual casting though, huh?

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>>47097458
Well Dave did mentioned that the spells at base will be weaker then 1E. But Reach really of sets that.

Also >>47097052, is a troll who can't read, because to cast a spell on someone's past you need to target them in the present. I have it highlighted below. Besides the Penopticon Seer gets the benefit for the sypathic range attainment not temporal sympathy.

>>47098037
>because to cast a spell on someone's past you need to target them in the present

Changes jack shit.

>Besides the Penopticon Seer gets the benefit for the sypathic range attainment not temporal sympathy.

You're ignoring Occultation/Shadow Name by your Space dots, spatial sympathy or no.

>>47097901
>What's that from?
The Dark Ages book. Specifically, 70s New York Werewolf. Punk Generation would see a lot of use there.

Marionette (Ruling - Prime 2)
>Can manipulate Tass to act at your command
>Reach +2: Control extends to sympathetic range

Phantasm / Platonic Form (Weaving - Prime 3)
>Create Tass object from Mana
>Reach +2: Can be more complex (moving parts, pulse, etc.)
>Reach +1: Make more durable / increase ealth levels
>Reach +2: Make Lasting

Idealized Form (Patterning - Prime 4)
>Tass now functions as the object it mimics - calculator correctly adds up, car engine uses fuel, wood burns, etc.
>Reach +2: Make Lasting
>Reach +1: Conceal Supernal origin vs. Clash of Wills

Eidolon (Making - Prime 5)
>Creates Tass object with a unique Pattern of it's own, granting awareness of self, uses simplified attributes
>Reach +2: Use Mage's attribute in place of it's own (1 by default)
>Reach +2: Use Mage's skills in place of it's own (0 by default)
>Reach: 1 Use Mage's Prime in place of one atribute/skill

>>47098192
You forget that Seers of a Ministry only get access to things within their Exarchs purview, Eye doesn't hold any claims to Time as it is the domain of Prophet!

>>47098207
Oh, that makes sense, yeah. Fight the power.

>>47098192
>>47098037
Please don't start this again

>>47098339

I used my mastery of Time to ensure this argument will continue Ad Nauseum. All for the will of the Exarchs!

>>47098337
>You forget that Seers of a Ministry only get access to things within their Exarchs purview
Not how prelacies work.

Speaking of Sympathy, I really like that Space is now more about the sympathetic connections between objects, as opposed to manipulations of physical distance. I don't know if that was present in 1e or not, but reading 2e it really feels like the Mastigos stuff is thematically connected, as opposed to the Gross Arcana just being tacked on to the psychic stuff. I almost hadn't even realized the sample Awakening with the bipolar artist was representing Space primary until the last paragraph.

>>47098382
Don't Panoticon Seers only have access to the Vision Prelacies though?

>>47098445
The Crown of Vision's second benefit isn't limited to Spatial Sympathy.

>>47098485
But in order to make use of it with Time you'd probably need to be a backstabbing git whose working for Prophet...which is no problem at all for a Seer.

>>47097326
The Summoning rules are expanding the info for the 3-dot attainment.
Also, trying to summon something without the Attainment would be a spell, which means it could be counter spelled and cause Paradox. Attainments aren't spells, so neither of those will happen.

>>47097910
>>47097920
He did say "most spells". You aren't going to spend willpower on "most spells"

>>47097955
Using Yantras doesn't require you to be ritual casting; at most, if you're using High Speech, that's a 1-turn buildup to actually casting it, as opposed to three hours for ritual casting.

>>47098485
It's pretty specifically talking about Sympathetic Range, and Space magic. Sympathetic Range is the Space attainment, and thus is objectively limited to Spatial Sympathy.

What are your hopes for Gen Con?

>>47099166
What do we even need? We have everything now or on the way besides Hunter 2.

Prommie 2, Changeling 2. Nothing else exists.

>>47099166
Geist 2e.

When is Gencon?

>>47099184
Fuck you, guy.
Also, Deviant info and possibly even some other new line being announced.

Still waiting on a Seer/Mummy crossover (The Seer in charge of the Pylon believes that this particular Arisen is an Ochema of Prophet)

>no pastebin
http://pastebin.com/mByuG93b

So if the subltr arcana are the ingredients for a new soul, is Pyros the flame you cook it over?

>>47099166

Geist 2e, Hunter 2e, Promethean 2e, Changeling 2e, Deviant news. Updates to the translation guides for use between X20 and Chronicles of Darkness.

Kindred of The East 20th

>>47099200
>When is Gencon?
89 days

>>47099264
So aspel was doing the chronicles of fagness stuff the whole time

>>47098422
Which is ironic, because it makes more sense to be named Correspondence, like Ascension

>>47099287

And Sekhem is the marinade.

>need to take an extra -4 to target garou
nice

>>47099287
>>47099398
Think of it more like a Nuclear reactor, Azoth is the fuel rod, the Subtle Arcana are the control rods and Sekhem is the water they run through it all. and this all enclosed in a shell of solidified Aether.

>>47099369
Why would I have been doing the fagness stuff? I just forgot to link the pastebin.
Also, why do you feel Sympathy doesn't fit? Or do you mean Space? I could understand that, but I think Space is a good name for it, while Correspondence (and Entropy) don't really fit with the naming scheme of the Arcana.

>>47099287
>>47099398
This soup is sounding kind of gross.

>>47099369
>confusing me with that beast
Kill yourself, my main man.

>>47099498
>Also, why do you feel Sympathy doesn't fit? Or do you mean Space? I could understand that, but I think Space is a good name for it, while Correspondence (and Entropy) don't really fit with the naming scheme of the Arcana.
Space refers to literal space, correspondence with connections

>>47099498
>This soup is sounding kind of gross.
>not wanting 4000 year old hermaphrodite and people sewn together from a dozen dead bodies or just piles of manure formed into human shape in your soup
why are you even on 4chan?

>>47099508
See, you idiots gave him so much attention, he took a name. I hope you're all happy.

>>47099498

>implying the human soul is not a tasty well cooked burg on a grill

What the fuck

>>47099550
He took a name a while ago. It just means it's easier to identify his posts, and ignore them if you want to.

>>47099598
It's to skirt around bans and warnings

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbuUW9i-mHs
Kurgzesat was later disappeared by an agent of the Praetorian Ministry.

>>47099598
>a while ago
Why do people lie like this? I've at most missed two of these threads the last few days because of work. So what is 'a while ago' here, 24 hours?

>>47099546
I don't think even Tammuz can be formed from piles of poop.

>>47099608
How does a name help with that?

>>47099747
He took the "chronicles of fagness" name like two weeks ago.

>>47099863
>How does a name help with that?
Instead of just posting chronicles of fagness which violates rules 3/6, he puts it in his name and posts regularly so his posts aren't just shitposting

I'm new to Awakening, but doesn't the Path system seem a little bit restricting? "This pairs with that, and not with that". Not sure how it actually plays in the game, but it kinda sucks in theory. Also death pairing with matter, seriously?

>>47098192
> Changes jack shit
It changes everything. Unless that Seer is instant casting the kill baby you spell. You will have ample time to counter the spell/caster.

Your second point is pretty valid, but that merit is pretty strong.

>>47099963
It's fine in Practice.

Death pairing with matter works fine; they both affect material things that aren't alive.

>>47100034
But isn't it bad that a single character can get bonuses for a third of the available arcana?

>>47099632
I really love the paradox involved here, because I think that it's both important to know this, but that it's also important to highlight the conflict of the world. This goes for everything terrible. This is without a doubt the best time period to live. Even with political corruption and the human rights issues that "Civilized" countries face despite lauding themselves as better than others ("We don't *kill* our minorities!") and all the violence and strife that you see on television... This is the safest and healthiest period to be alive.

But at the same time, we got there by shining a spotlight on the war and hate and violence. People criticize social justice movements by saying they don't have it as bad as foreign countries, and so they shouldn't complain, but one of the reasons the world gets better is because people complain. Television turned public opinion on war in the 70s (even if OORAH military propaganda sort of turned it back in the 00s)

The Praetorians are losing. Also, thanks, Anon. I really needed something positive. "The world is shitty, but not as shitty as we all think".

>>47100054
Each path only gets 2/10, or a fifth, of the available Arcana as Ruling, and one as Inferior.
The only way to get a third Ruling is to join a Legacy, and that's perfectly fine and an understood part of the rules.
There's nothing wrong with it at all.

>>47100107
Aren't most creeps limited in a similar fashion anyway? Like, you don't see Werewolves with gifts from every single type, they are built to pick from a select few.

>>47100165
Still, mages seem to be compelled to pick the same two arcana for the same path. It's more difficult to make unique combinations.

>>47100197
I don't know how true this is, but on the other hand Mages can make more unique combinations within their path than most characters can with what they pick. That is to say, having the same arcana leads to more varied play than say having the same keys in geist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW3aV7U-aik
And this is why creating a Neutron Star is in the purview of Matter and not Space.

>>47100197
>It's more difficult to make unique combinations.

The goal of the game is not to make unique combinations. The design and intent of the setting intentionally presupposes certain gross/subtle Arcana pairings. The Paths are more than just preferred Arcana (e.g., Mage Sight), and "uniqueness" is largely a product of choosing a Legacy.

Further, mages of all paths can learn and use all the Arcana.

>>47100240

This.

Especially with the addition of rotes and praxes, and the increased effects of being in a Legacy, two Moros could end up wildly different characters, never even casting the same spell, while two Rahu werewolves will always be preeetty similar.

>>47100165
>>47100197
You have easier access to the stuff that's linked to your Path/Clan/Auspice(/Tribe), but it's pretty common for people to have their dots spread out pretty widely.

Especially with Mages, because not everybody who awakens as a Thyrsus because they're interested in things related to Life is going to fall into the animism of Spirit very easily.

>>47100316
>You have easier access to the stuff that's linked to your Path/Clan/Auspice(/Tribe), but it's pretty common for people to have their dots spread out pretty widely.
This is one of the reasons I love WoD's system. So much better than "this is your class, you can do nothing outside of it"

>>47100267
Not really. A Rahu Blood Talon and a Rahu Iron Master could be wildly different characters. Even if they're the same Tribe as well, they might not have the same Facets in the Gifts that they've got.

>>47100389
Your two ruling arcana you an get to 5/5 without instruction.

Your one inferior arcana you can get to 2/5 without instruction

The other seven you can get to 4/5 without instruction, and will likely have a Mage in your cabal who can instruct you by the time it becomes relevant.

>>47098371
The greatest trick the Exarchs ever pulled was forcing the Chronicles of Darkness onto the world.

>>47100587
No, I mean in general. I love that by choosing Daeva, I'm not totally shutting myself off from scaring the shit out of people with Nightmare, it just takes me a little more Experience.

Do Mage Arcana not actually have a cost deduction for in-Path?

>>47100685
Things above your cap cost 5 XP, instead of 4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXjkyI-LbgI
The first clip of this is probably a really funny depiction of Father.
>Pissy Mage: "There is no goooooooodddddddd!"
>Father: (Prime 5 Unmaking, squish) THERE IS NO EVAN!

>>47100857
Some of those were funny, but dang sure is a lot of John K. copying.

>>47100709
Man, I wish there was more of a difference between in-path and out-of-path.

>>47100920
The differenceis in having to pay mana for every improvised spell that isn't on your Path.

>>47100918
The Clover was hilarious.

>>47100987
You'll also pay for mage sight.

>>47100316
>You have easier access to the stuff that's linked to your Path/Clan/Auspice(/Tribe), but it's pretty common for people to have their dots spread out pretty widely.
You can't get moon gifts outside of your auspice, but you can get any shadow Gift

>>47100987
Oh, right, I forget about that sometimes.

I have a couple of questions:
-Are the Exarchs really the bad guys? Couldn't they just be part of the "natural" state of the world, or even keeping it from going wrong?
-How can Mages be so convinced that their understanding of the Supernal is right? They are still mostly human.

>>47101940
>I have a couple of questions:
>-Are the Exarchs really the bad guys? Couldn't they just be part of the "natural" state of the world, or even keeping it from going wrong?

The Exarchs perpetuate The Lie. If the Lie were natural, why is there Paradox?

>-How can Mages be so convinced that their understanding of the Supernal is right? They are still mostly human.

They see the TRUTH!

So the Fate 2 spell Shifting the Odds says it will lead you to a person/place/object within the next 24 hours. Does that mean you ALWAYS have to Reach for Advanced Duration, or the spell doesn't actually do anything? That seems... odd.

>>47101952
But is the Lie really not part of the Truth? What if it is, and the Mages's enlightened, feeble human minds cannot grasp it? I know Mage is an extension of the Plato's cave allegory, but it still makes me wonder.

>>47102021
You're sounding a lot like a Seer, Anon...

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>>47102055

>>47102055
I'm not stupidly evil enough for that. But what if the Abyss consuming all and existence re-emerging from this nothingness is actually part of the cycle of the universe? So many questions...

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>>47102161
Never mind. He's a scelesti.

>>47101955
I think that within 24 hours might be lasting? I don't know.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/490382-the-world-of-darkness-revealed-and-tumblr

What would 4chan be like in the World of Darkness Revealed?

>>47102316
/x/ would be more popular

>>47102316
Mages would spend their days trolling /sci/

>daww, he still thinks gravity is caused by physics rather than the world reflecting the supernal symbol for Down

>>47102249
I'm not. I'm just a normal guy like you, but I ask questions instead of drinking the Pentacle's kool-aid!

>>47102364
Yep. This guy jerks off left-handed confirmed.

How do I get started on understanding Mage the Awakening? Will the new book suffice?

>>47102364
The Lie is embodied by eternal, unchanging corruption, Mage. Those who question these truths - they are traitors!

>>47102363
>Implying people will somehow believe the Mages' proofless rambling.

>>47102316
>Purified lying about absolutely everything to piss off /his/

>/sp/ accusing everyone in the NFL of being a werewolf and using Dalu to cheat

>"my boss is a demon, anyone know how I at him out to an angel?"

>>47102431
The new book should suffice.

>>47102316
>/pol/ forms a new Compact

>>47102316
Asshole prophets everywhere on boards deconstructing your arguments and responding to your posts before you make them. Also everyone afraid to give any description of themselves at all to avoid random assholes with sympathetic magic punching them through the internet.

>>47102620
More like /pol/ is already a mystery cult to make sure sleepers don't organize too well.

>>47102316
>/hm/ threads to discuss gay werewolves, vampires, mages, etc
>Specifically people talking about their gay werewolf boyfriends, and some guy talking about how he made himself the perfect boyfriend by stitching a bunch of bodies together
>/cm/ threads about qt changeling boys
>/fit/ threads with Werewolves and Thyrsoi showing off their sick gains

>>47099166
Inferno, Immortals, or Slashers 2e. Deviant canceled in light of Beast blunder.

>>47102736
>people were so fucking hyped for Mage
>gets released
>people have now lost all faith in Dave and want Deviant cancelled

What a difference a day makes

>>47102736
>Inferno
Get your trash fetish game out of here. The real demons are already in town.

>>47102780
Why so salty kid?

Triple I (Inferno, Innocents, Immortals) is the dream. Hell, moving Vice & Virtue to broader options actually gave Inferno demons a proper niche with the 7 Sins.

>>47102758
No, I was never hyped for Mage. I didn't particularly like 1e and my group has near zero interest in 2e, so whether or not it delivered on its promises doesn't matter. I was, however, marginally interested in Beast, and that's a fucking disaster. So my faith that OP can make another conceptually weak game like Deviant work is totally gone.

>>47102780
You leave my deep Lust one hit kill assassin alone.

>>47102813
Innocents was barely a hack. They can redo innocents with a blog post. Why waste time even making a PDF?

Immortals is awesome, good stuff, a fun resource.

Inferno was a mistake. Everyone at OP probably knows that.

>>47102863
>Inferno was a mistake. Everyone at OP probably knows that.

Inferno was mechanically wonky but the actual book is great.

>>47102863
>>47102780
What's with the Inferno hate? I've only skimmed through it, but it didn't seem bad for a blue line book.

>>47102907
So like reverse Changing Breeds then?

>>47102939
>Changing Breeds
>not mechanically wonky

Sure, lets give the Werelions paradox-free Mage spells, that seems reasonable.

>>47102930
It plays like no one even tried to test the mechanics.
It has multiple completely OP powers that are like, creation level.
As PCs, Inferno demons lack purpose, organization, drive. They just are.
Plus they mess with the overall cosmology since no other book seems to realize they exist.

The book is just bad.

>>47102930
It's a love/hate book, like all the relevant blue books.

>>47102939
No, because while Inferno has decent fluff and often bad, but somewhat usable mechanics, Changing Breeds has awful fluff and usually unplayable mechanics.

>>47102976
As if 1e paradox was even a hassle.
Oh no, I screwed up all of time and space, better take two bashing damage or something.

>>47103014
It made Werechinchillas better Mages than Mages.

That's not ok

>>47103002
>Inferno
>decent fluff
>usable mechanics
ha, hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

>>47103025
No. You had to buy spells as merits, individually.

If spending 90% of your starting merits to get 1-2 spells makes someone better than a mage, that is a problem with mages, not with changing breeds.

Changing breeds has a ton of mechanical problems, lying about which problems those are is just petty.

>>47103045
>Changing breeds has a ton of mechanical problems

lol still vulnerable to silver for literally no reason

>>47103002
>It's a love/hate book, like all the relevant blue books.

Who hated Skinchangers?

>>47103045
It made them better than 2e Proximi, because Proximi still suffer Paradox.

>>47102987
I think the Lucifuge are somehow related to that sort of demons, but Hunter is the peasant setting were cosmology is enteriely up to the ST.

>>47103076
>Silver
To be fair, even pre-fall werewolves have this problem in Dark Eras. 'Still weak to silver, just run with it, we don't know why'

>>47103093
Well crossing editions isn't really a fair conversation.
Plus, Proximi are a minor splat, Changing Breeds are a full template. They should openly be stronger than Proximi.

Plus, let me remind all of you, that any Changing Breeds character that takes their crappy and limited magic capabilities, cannot raise their power stat above 3. Effectively gimping themselves for forever, just so they can buy spells as merits (like proximi do now).

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>>47103135
>Changing Breeds are a full template

>>47102930
Shitty mechanics.

>>47102987
Possessed are more of a Mortals+ thing than anything else, and most of those "creation level" OP powers are in the book that's all about selling your soul for real ultimate power. It's shit like "kill 50 people in a car crash".
I also don't see how no other book seems to realize they exist. I'm pretty sure Inferno gets mentioned by name in Demon, and the same concepts are explored in Werewolf when it comes to the Maeljin.

Oh, and yeah, the Lucifuge stuff mentions the L'Enfant Terribles.

>>47103135
I must assume it's because they got cursed so hard that it was retroactive. Remember that Rank 6+ spirits also have Imperial Mysteries grade bullshit.

>>47103181
Demon mentions it in a sidebar that is like 'so what about those other things you called Demons?'

Just so you can look and say, 'no, mixing these is a bad idea'.

>>47103181
>L'Enfant Terribles
This French hurts me.

>>47102316
The Happy Vampire is a /pol/ meme featuring a stereotypical Dracula with huge fangs trying to screw over the kine.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/vampire-bloodlines-trademarked-by-white-wolf-publishing.108654/

>>47103135
>To be fair, even pre-fall werewolves have this problem in Dark Eras. 'Still weak to silver, just run with it, we don't know why'
Pretty sure it's just a Bane because they are Pangaeans and the moon is connected to silver. The Father is weak to his children, but the children are weak to their mother.

>>47103225
I'm sure they used the correct French. I just don't care to look it up.

Les Enfant Terribles?

THE SONS OF BIG BOSS!

>>47103129
>>47103181
If Demon is any authority, they aren't. Inferno demons are explicitly said to be unrelated to any of the other demons mentioned elsewhere in a sidebar near the start of the book.

>>47098382
That's ABSOLUTELY how Prelacies work. You're developing a strong connection to a specific Exarch. This specific Exarch has dominion over Space and not Time.

>>47101940
>Couldn't they just be part of the "natural" state of the world, or even keeping it from going wrong?
That's what the Seers believe. Their section talks about how they don't believe the world is "Fallen" at all; it's just naturally built like this, with Supernal Beings in charge.

>>47103369
General gives benefits to all Mage Armors.

>>47103352
The first word is singular and the second word is plural, for one.

>>47103528
I'm pretty sure it's originally Enfants Terribles, thus both plural. He's just mis-quoting.

>Legacy for building supernatural objects is moros
>Still not obrimos, the guys who get to actually enchant objects
Im miffed and will houserule this again

>>47103964
If you're talking about the Forge Masters, they get Prime as a Ruling Arcanum (and there's an Obrimos spin-off that grants Matter).

>>47103964
>Houseruling the Forge Masters to Obrimos
>Not just making an Obrimos Legacy that gives the same/similar benefits and Matter Ruling

>>47104060
>Obrimos spin-off that grants Matter
Where's this?

>>47103964
I generally just house rule that you can get the accompanying Arcana as a Ruling if the primary one is already Ruling. The slight XP discount for Primary Arcana being Ruling really doesn't make for a good benefit, considering it gets you 3 whole experience maximum.

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Now that the dust has settled: what went wrong?

>>47104792
Got rid of Phantasms

>>47104792
Nothing. It's well done and balanced, a small number of people are just pissed off/trolling over some of the changes.

>>47104792
It is too balanced!

>>47104792
Time getting retroactive effects. Because you just know everyone will be talking about it as something that makes Mages ridiculously superior to the other splats. Also just generally messes up gameplay balance when one party member can declare things never happened unless the GM has characters dedicated to countering that.

>>47102758
Most like it. A loud minority doesn't, and the people that never liked mage weren't going to magically stop shit posting.

>>47104792
Honestly the only real complaint i have is loss of space that resulted from the decision to put core rules in every book.

>>47099166
Dragon blooded release date.

>>47104946
I prefer it over the 1e method of having any and all references to core rules include a "but if you want to know more, buy the core book and look at page XX!"

>>47103181
>>47102987
They've also been mentioned in Mage as "the Unclean Ones". They can give an archmage quintessence.

>>47104891
Or... Or! The GM knows that he has a time Mage so takes the possibilities into account.

>>47104792
>>47104834

Nothing really went wrong, and Mage 2e is still a pretty good game. However, the hype and wait were immense, and it just didn't, and couldn't, meet such entirely unrealistic expectations.

I think one of the major problems is that they tried to fit so much into the book that some material didn't receive the depth and exploration it needed and deserved, and thus there's some confusion.many questions, or some things just appear unbalanced.

Dave indicated that he soon intends to release a supplementary material in the Mage blog and produce a substantive FAQ. This, plus the quick release of Signs of Sorcery, will hopefully calm most of the good faith critics. However, it's impossible to please everyone, and just because some trolls and malcontents complain loudly or often, it doesn't mean they represent the majority of customers.

>>47105149
plus we're still waiting on errata.

>>47104792
It ended up good, but not perfect, and we'd already seen almost all of the good parts in the spoiler blogs.

So most of the new stuff we saw was downsides we didn't know about.

>>47104792
we already knew a fair portion of the mechanics before the core even came out

>>47104891
>>47105100
Or, the ST should deal with it. Find a way to give the players an issue that Time magic can't solve; someone with Time wards, for example?

Time is nowhere near as unbalanced as you people seem to think it is. It's perfectly fine, if you've got any sort of game sense and don't decide on balance with white room nonsense.

Anyone know why thesubnet lists People of the Hour as left handed? Did they get errata'd?

>>47104792
Still digesting the changes. Familiarity with 1e is detrimental because there are some changes/absences that aren't spelled out but are very important.

>>47104891
You still have to affect the subject through all its defenses in the present, but the effect is applied to the past. If you're going to try to assassinate them in the past, why bother going through more defenses instead of just killing them now?

While the caster is immune to the aftershocks, no one else is, which makes fucking with time a dangerous proposition. Not to mention that you can destroy temporal sympathy to make precision attacks disproportionately difficult to pull off.

Conceptually, it can be exploited, but who would want the headache at the table?

>>47104792
A lack of specificity with regards to the actual nitty gritty of time travel and manipulation.

Other than that, it's pretty fucking fantastic.

So is it just me or are dire damage spells usually inferior for killing people compared to some of the status effects and impediments you can cause? Because a lot of the other spells seem to shut the opponent down far harder than the actual damage spells would. Heck, Obrimos can use gravity shenanigans to send their enemies flying for massive damage.

>>47105306
Yep, brute force is a poor tool in the arsenal of the awakened.

>>47105306
I found direct damage spells kinda weird as far back as 1e. Like why roll Gnosis + Arcanum and apply succeses as damage when i can just roll Dexterity + Firearms and apply the succeses as damage without paradox or any of that funny business.

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Is there a minor Spirit-related template for Mortals?
Thinking about how to make a Paranatural-like game in CofD.

>>47105306
>So is it just me or are dire damage spells usually inferior for killing people compared to some of the status effects and impediments you can cause?
Yes. Affecting people indirectly is way better than damaging their health boxes. This is by design.

>>47105459
I googled Paranatural, and from a quick glance at what I'm guessing is a fan wiki, you want Geist.

It's about people who have a near-death experience, but are saved when a powerful ghost possesses them, and they thereafter have ghostly superpowers, and deal mostly with ghostly bullshit.

>>47105459
You can be ridden.

You don't want to be ridden.

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>>47105529
I could make it work with that, but the Keys and Manifestations don't really work well with the Spirit angle.
I mean there are Ghosts, but they're kinda separate.

I get that there's not going to be a simple fix, which is why I was going to look for a minor template on the Spirit wavelength of the twilight instead of the Ghost.

>>47105533
That is kinda like what Spirit possession is kinda like in it, but you still maintain full control and the Spirit gets to piggyback.

>>47105306
Direct damage has always been a rather ineffective way of dealing with problems, and the practices section of the book says exactly that. They do get a bit of a buff from being uncontested/not-withstood as the resistance Stamina provides is already factored in via Health.

Fraying spells are a bit more neat when using them as DoTs. Instantaneous effects repeat every [Gnosis based ritual casting time], so you can curse someone to die a slow death for fun and/or profit.

>>47105459
Beast sort of works, except you're possessed by Goetia.
Geists are possessed by Ghosts.
Ridden are possessed by spirits, but >>47105533.
You can become a Spirit and possess your own body, which is a Purified.

>>47105589
Purified are major template though, he wanted minor.

>>47102677
There is a Mystery Cult of Truthers for that already...

>>47102431
Read Dave's actual-play threads on RPGnet. They're good shit.

>>47104812
It didn't. They are still there!
They just changed names!

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>>47105736
Yeah, most strong powers come from the equivalent of Fetishes and a Geist-like fusion which lets you use their Influences.

The rest of the time they're producing and messinag around with ephemera constructs.

Would be fairly simple to write up, probably have a "you turn into a human Fetish when you're Ridden" merit and some minor powers relating to sculpting ephemera and existing across both Ghost and Spirit wavelengths.

>>47105437
>I found direct damage spells kinda weird as far back as 1e. Like why roll Gnosis + Arcanum and apply succeses as damage when i can just roll Dexterity + Firearms and apply the succeses as damage without paradox or any of that funny business.

That's not what you are doing. You are deciding how much damage you'll do. You look at how much Potency you get by default, take penalties for the rest. Roll spell. Watch them hurt.

Hey there TG,

So, I'm not really an active member here, but I'm the head of the continuation project for Dragon: The Embers, which is the World of Darkness fanbook for the Oroboroi, former-humans who've eaten the Heart of an ancient Dragon and become dragon-like monsters with literally godlike powers.

We're reworking the book for the new God Machine Chronicles books, and we're looking to get the word out. I was wondering if anyone here was a fan of the old book, and maybe wanted to talk about it?

New project thread at - http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/873174-dragon-rekindled-the-orobori-chronicles-embers-reboot

>>47105934
>former-humans who've eaten the Heart of an ancient Dragon and become dragon-like monsters with literally godlike powers
Yuck, pass.

>>47104792
There are a couple minor issues, the book needs some errata and clarifications, but the only major problem is Time being absolute broken bullshit that ruins games if used the way it can be.

>>47105212
>You still have to affect the subject through all its defenses in the present, but the effect is applied to the past. If you're going to try to assassinate them in the past, why bother going through more defenses instead of just killing them now?
Because murdering someone now leaves big obvious traces of murder. It leaves all the spells they were involved in poised to go Paradox-crazy. It leaves their friends and loved ones vengeful.

Murdering someone in the past results in lasting timeline changes that makes it so they never did those spells and never interacted with people who might want vengeance.

It's also reasonably easy to cheat around their defenses in the present. You don't need to mess with a wizard at all if you can dig up their grandfather's bones and give his muggle self a heart attack before he knocked up grandma.

>>47105919
If Geist isn't your thing, perhaps Wolf-Blooded?
You wouldn't be able to interact with ghosts, but Spirits are visible to them if they have the right Tell.

>>47106019
Killing grandpa doesn't erase the guy who exists in the present, though. It just erases his identity.
Read the fucking rules and pay attention to the chapter fiction, that's directly addressed.

>>47105934
Sounds like actual dick. I'm assuming you've already spread this news in the homebrew thread?

>>47105210
Yeah, that's what I said. The GM should take time magic into account.

>>47105962
As they say, not every book is for everyone. As long as you're open about the fact that you just don't like the concept, that's fine. :3

I, personally, will never play a Beast, because they annoy me as a thing, but I don't assume it's a bad book. Just don't turn into one of those people who accuses games like Mage of having problems they don't without having played a real campaign and everything's fine.

I will say that I'm increasingly happy with the new book we're working on. Lots of neat little horrors for the Oroboroi to slowly uncover as they try to deal with the typical "Monsters have responsibilities" bullshit...

>>47105815
You can never have too many mystery cults.

>>47106062
Goddamn, I didn't see that thread. Maybe I'll go there...

Like I said, not really an avid 4-channer...

>>47106058
No, it absolutely does. The only way you avoid getting erased is if you're the one who did the deed. Killing your own parents doesn't effect you, but killing someone else's writes them out of existence unless they have Time magic of their own to protect against it.

>>47106073
You don't have to assume it is bad at this point...

>>47106058
>Killing grandpa doesn't erase the guy who exists in the present, though. It just erases his identity.
The only time travel immunity goes to the time TRAVELER. That is, the Mage who cast the spell.

Read the fucking rules. Page 186.

>>47106058
Not that anon, but didn't it address the paradox of killing yourself specifically? The caster is protected from the timeline changes, but no one else is.

>>47106096
It isn't always up. But it could get you more eyes on it.

>>47106058
That's what I mean:it really bugs me that the only competent Storytellers I know talk shit about Mage constantly, but they clearly haven't even read it...

...And it and Spirit's mechanical explanations of how everything actually works are neigh essential to homebrewing or figuring things out on the fly!

>>47106075
Yes.

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>>47106058
God damn it feels good to school a little cunt like you.

>>47106114
>>47106101
These two know what's up. Here, I'll help you, first moron anon.

>>47106155
>That's what I mean:it really bugs me that the only competent Storytellers I know talk shit about Mage constantly, but they clearly haven't even read it...
I'm including you in the cunt schooling above, as both you and anon were not only wrong about time travel but popped off about it. Get fucked, trash.

>>47106019
>lasting timeline changes that makes it so they never did those spells and never interacted with people who might want vengeance
Is dealing with a handfull of spells and some sore relatives really that much less complicated than coming back to a timeline blind (potentially with more enemies and doom than you'd have gained from killing them outright)? If you're going to off a mage, you pre-meditate that. Anticipating all the butterfly effects of temporal murder is a lot more work than framing someone, using a catspaw or just staging it as a suicide. Not to mention that the reasons you want them dead may not actually disappear with their passing, you'd still be competing with someone for resources or having to deal with a political office because the role of the mage you off doesn't vanish with them.

>>47106157
>>47106180
That's... Kind of obnoxious of you, considering I didn't have the time to go find that in a book I don't really get to use for characters very often... Especially since my point that people keep complaining about a book they don't understand very well still stands...

>>47106252
If you didn't want to be called out as human trash, you should have kept quiet instead of backing up Mr. Stupid As Fuck above and mouthing off.

I read it, you two clearly didn't, you don't get to bitch about other people's reading. You get to apologize and slink off back into anonymity ashamed.

>>47106218
Thus, the "hubrs" point which a good chunk of Mage delves into... It really is a game you have to think about to run effectively, and that might be the one thing I don't like about it, compared to books like Werewolf and Changeling...

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>>47106058
>>47106252

>>47106283
Dude, we're talking about a game about wizards on an internet forum. I never said your quote was wrong, I just don't see why you're so angry about it... It's really kinda neckbeardy, and you should just chill out...

>>47106365
Get fucked, trash.

>>47106365
Seriously, dude? You acted like an idiot. An idiot with double standards. Just stop and own up to it.

>>47106298
>It really is a game you have to think about to run effectively, and that might be the one thing I don't like about it
You sound like a shit GM, too.

>>47102316

/d/ would go batshit.

>>47106101
>>47106106
>>47106114
>>47106157
Okay, I admit, I'm tired as fuck and sick of dealing with idiots misinterpreting the rules, so I fucked up.

Still, murdering muggle grandpa isn't going to be easy; you'll at best have a Weak connection, +1 for whatever his personal withstand rating is(assuming it's not 4+, in which case +1 to that for the connection's withstand), +1 if you're using spatial sympathy, +1 if you don't know his sympathetic name.
With the penalties it would take to hit someone with all of that, your Gnosis is going to be high enough by the time you can do it with any reliability that you're just as likely to fail as a result of your intended target(the Mage grandchild) having some manner of spell in place to keep himself safe. And if you do succeed, prepare for other threats to pop up as a result of the butterfly effect from killing someone at least 40 years ago(20 years for dad to grow up and meet mom, 20 years for the target to grow up and awaken).

Sure, you might kill your intended target, but that doesn't mean you no longer have any problems.
(See the Butterfly Effect and 11.22.63 for ways changing the past, even for a noble cause, can fuck you over.)

>>47106527
>Okay, I admit, I'm tired as fuck and sick of dealing with idiots misinterpreting the rules, so I fucked up.
That's the way to do it.

>Still, murdering muggle grandpa isn't going to be easy; you'll at best have a Weak connection, +1 for whatever his personal withstand rating is(assuming it's not 4+, in which case +1 to that for the connection's withstand), +1 if you're using spatial sympathy, +1 if you don't know his sympathetic name.
With the penalties it would take to hit someone with all of that, your Gnosis is going to be high enough by the time you can do it with any reliability that you're just as likely to fail as a result of your intended target(the Mage grandchild) having some manner of spell in place to keep himself safe.

It's true that a Mage might wisely implement Time shields or the like on his entire bloodline to try and prevent actions like this.

It's also true that nothing short of an Archmage has the resources to so thoroughly defend their lineage that if you really want to you can't bypass their defenses.

Grandpa can't be directly time-fucked? Well, go back in time to grandpa's neighbor and have them kill grandpa themselves.

Sure, there's consequences, but that's not much of a defense: literally everything possible has consequences, and most all of those other things cause less of a headache than retroactive timeline changes.

It's also undeniable that, statistically speaking, whatever arises as a result of your Mage erasure is going to be a much less severe threat than the Mage themselves. In terms of pure demographics and capabilities, even if your fiddling somehow created a new Hitler, he can't do much to you.

There's also the problem that this is simply annoying to deal with as anyone but the PC wielding Time magic.

>>47104792
It's a good game, but the Time Arcana is troublesome.

>>47106527
I'm with you. It's whiteroom bullshit, but the fact that it's possible drives people insane like social change.

By the time someone is worth chronoganking, they've scoured their temporal sympathies to safeguard themselves and carpet bombing the past in the hopes of destroying the role of the person is more collateral damage than its worth.

>>47106615
>It's also undeniable that, statistically speaking, whatever arises as a result of your Mage erasure is going to be a much less severe threat than the Mage themselves.
Now THAT is entirely unfounded.

>>47106662
>Now THAT is entirely unfounded.
Really? There are only a handful of entities that pose a greater threat than a Mage, and most of them are beings whose life and death is entirely divorced from the world of humanity- high-ranking spirits, Exarchs, maybe some elder other supernaturals (but not really).

No amount of Butterfly Effect bullshit is going to get a rank 6 or 7 spirit to pop up in your bedroom with a grudge.

>>47105586
>That is kinda like what Spirit possession is kinda like in it, but you still maintain full control and the Spirit gets to piggyback.
Sounds like Kitsune from Skinchangers.

>>47106730
How many mages does a mage contribute to ending throughout their career? Suddenly all of those mages now have to be accounted for. Not to mention if you were ABSOLUTELY paranoid about being timeganked, you'd just go and do it yourself, severing your temporal sympathy altogether.

>>47106662
>By the time someone is worth chronoganking, they've scoured their temporal sympathies to safeguard themselves and carpet bombing the past in the hopes of destroying the role of the person is more collateral damage than its worth.
It does kind of suck if you like using non-Mages as antagonists in Mage games though.

>>47103045
>>decent fluff
>>usable mechanics
Yeah, it actually had really good fluff and usable mechanics.

People are so busy talking about using Time to kill people they seem to be discounting combining it with Fate and Mind to create massive changes in the past to your benefit.

Couldn't like 99 percent of the time magic issues be solved by just ruling you can't further than 1 scene back in time unless you are an archmage? Would people have been satisfied if that was what got printed?

>>47102987
>Plus they mess with the overall cosmology since no other book seems to realize they exist.
You obviously were oblivious to the fact that most books don't reference blue books outside the core. Since they got out of the shit that was cWoD they've been trying to make books not as reliant on previous books.

>>47106869
>Would people have been satisfied if that was what got printed?
No, people will never be satisfied, especially with Time arcana that can't go back more than scene (wtf, why would you do that?)

>>47106615
Whatever act the other Mage committed to make you want to time gank them, it's just the latest domino in a line. When you kill them, you knock down that domino, and every one after it, undoing every action they did, and completely changing the world.

Sure, you killed the dick, but now there's a handful of new Mages that hadn't Awakened as an indirect result of his actions prior to you killing him, and there's probably at least a couple who aren't fans of yours.

And as an ST, if one of your players does time gank someone? Don't let them off easy, have them return to a present that is different than the one they remember. Time Magic keeps their memory of their present in tact, but it doesn't stop the present from changing on them. So, when they return, for the sake of not fucking over the other players, they still exist, and their histories are unaltered, but now there's a different gun pointed at the cabal, as a direct result of the dick, his father, and his grandfather being dead.
You and the players don't need to worry about *how* that threat comes up, either, because whatever changes as a result of the spell is Lasting, and they can't look back and see what caused these problems to not come up in the timeline they knew.

>>47106869
I think that's the best way it could have been handled. Obviously you should still be able to use it for reconnaissance further back though.

>>47106831
Nah, then you just employ the same reasons that stories have always used to force protagonists to work with their antagonists - killing them would make it worse in some way. Allies, hidden information, they have the antidote, etc.

>>47106869
Almost every Time problem is solved by removing Temporal Sympathy. Create some other 2-dot Attainment for them.

>>47106920
Or actually bothering to understand how it works, and all the issues that come with changing the past, instead of knee-jerking to "I don't like how this sounds, so it needs to be removed."

>>47106915
>Allies
They don't make Allies if you time wipe them.
>hidden information
They have no schemes to hide the information of if you time wipe them.
> they have the antidote,
They never poisoned anyone if you time-wiped them.

>>47106896
I don't buy it. There's no good reason to assume some new enemy conveniently rises up to replace the one you wiped out.

>>47106944
It works like I said. Don't be like the anon who got schooled above.

>>47106831
OR, at that level, you could use enemies who this won't work on. Characters whose origins you can't get to, either because someone bigger than you is protecting them (Luna, Conspiracies, other Covens, etc) or because they're otherworldly entities whose past is simply untouchable.

>>47106890
Like I said, I think the main problem Mage discussions have is people who the game wasn't really intended for, and people not really understanding how it works in play...

Not everyone is going to like a book, but that doesn't mean it's bad...

>>47106953
Who says it's convenient?
If they're taking the temporal sympathy approach, and killing their target as a kid/before they were born, then their present is going to suddenly, radically change. Maybe their target was actually the lesser evil, or maybe there is no replacement baddie, but now the player has to deal with not knowing the new Councilor, or any of the other people he *should* know.

If they go with the time-travel route, the same issues come up, but you can also throw more issues in their way as they attempt to kill their target in the past. Other Mages with Time Sight will recognize they're fucking with shit, and could attempt to dispel them back to the present. Entirely non-magical issues could come up, as well; perhaps a car hits the player right outside their target's home? They're not dead, but neither is their target, and they've just gotten a harsh lesson: if you fuck with the past, the past is gonna fuck with you.

>>47106983
....You say this as if "being schooled" by you is some sort of legitimate threat. You're not exactly the authority on anything here, just an unreasonably aggravated person on the internet...

>>47105210
>>47104891
It's not like Time gives retroactive effects in a way that you'd need to plan for that unless you WANT non linear shenanigans. It's not that someone plants a helpful object or comes back in time to explain things, or even goes back to kill you. Your personal timeline is more or less unaffected.

>>47107039
>If they're taking the temporal sympathy approach, and killing their target as a kid/before they were born, then their present is going to suddenly, radically change. Maybe their target was actually the lesser evil, or maybe there is no replacement baddie, but now the player has to deal with not knowing the new Councilor, or any of the other people he *should* know.
This raises another issue with Time magic. If someone starts abusing it and your the ST, you might have to start over from scratch several times because the people and political landscape keep on changing.

>>47107043
Get fucked, trash. You were wrong and still are.

>>47107039
>Who says it's convenient?
"You removed an enemy, but oh hey here's another one threatening you at the exact same time in a reasonably similar way" is pure narrative contrivance.

>Maybe their target was actually the lesser evil,
Contrived.
>but now the player has to deal with not knowing the new Councilor, or any of the other people he *should* know.
So the only reason you met these people was this random enemy you just killed? Well, okay. Weird life you lived.

> but you can also throw more issues in their way as they attempt to kill their target in the past
Profoundly difficult and unlikely given the time scales involved. It should never take more than an hour or two at the absolute most and that's being generous.
>Entirely non-magical issues could come up, as well; perhaps a car hits the player right outside their target's home? They're not dead, but neither is their target, and they've just gotten a harsh lesson: if you fuck with the past, the past is gonna fuck with you.

The player themselves doesn't go back in time, their spell does, and then its effects play out.

>>47107118
And everyone elses characters can't do anything about it because they don't remember anything about it, and it now nobody knows what their characters have been doing and any character development could potentially have been erased

Honestly, the people hating on temporal Sympathy are super uncreative. There are way more interesting things to do with it, other than "hurr durr, I kill you as a baby."

>>47107165
No one has suggested you can't do anything else with it. We're simply pointing out a major problem with it (that problem being "it's unstoppable bullshit that derails and ruins games".)

>can't think of plots or characters for Mage
>drowning in ideas for Mage in historical settings

help

>>47107165
Could you change the circumstances of someone's Awakening?
Stop someone from having forcibly awakened someone into a Banisher?
Save the life of someone's wife which otherwise would have turned them Scelestus out of grief?

>>47107134
>The player themselves doesn't go back in time, their spell does, and then its effects play out.

>If they go with the time-travel route,
Nice reading

>Profoundly difficult and unlikely given the time scales involved. It should never take more than an hour or two at the absolute most and that's being generous.
If they don't have any Space, and their target didn't grow up in the same city the game takes place in, that's probably more than an hour's worth of travel to go find them and kill them. Especially if you don't know where they grew up, which you probably won't.
Even with you thinking I was talking about a temporal sympathy spell, you're kinda wrong; it takes 3 hours, at most, on a successful casting, at Gnosis 1-2.

>>47107157
The book has a sidebar about it; character development is unaffected.

>>47107182
>derails and ruins games
Well, first of all, stop trying to railroad players.
Second of all, if your player's angry enough at an NPC to go back in time or shoot a spell at their past to try and kill them, it's probably not at all derailing the plot, because they would be trying to kill them anyways. It's your own fault for not expecting the player with Time to use Time to do things.

>>47107220
Probably.

>>47107182
Except this isn't fucking d&d, you're not a murder hobo. If you're facing an ancient vampire, how about instead of killing it, you use past summoning to remind this ancient being what is like to be human?
>>47107220
No doubt about it, in the end, isn't it better to have allies over dead enemies?

>>47107220
Sounds like a job for Time + Fate.

>>47107213
They're just people, Jakki. Curious people that gained the ability to alter reality. Unlike the other supernaturals, they're still human. Work with that. How do they balance their marriage to a sleeper?

>>47107236
>The book has a sidebar about it; character development is unaffected.
Experience gain is unaffected, character develop can be affected and probably will depending on the action.

>>47107236
The sidebar says you keep the experience you gained. thats it. I meant character development like self-development, relationships with others, etc.

>>47106073
>>47105934
Honestly, I don't see the point, and it also already sounds out of theme with what the Chronicles of Darkness is all about. What does "eaten the heart of the dragon" mean, and why should I be interested in these monsters? What does it do that can't be done in Mage or Beast with minor tweaks?

>>47107242
>Except this isn't fucking d&d, you're not a murder hobo. If you're facing an ancient vampire, how about instead of killing it, you use past summoning to remind this ancient being what is like to be human?
Sure, that is an option on the table. What's your point? Again, no one has been saying you can't do these things.

>>47107236
>Nice reading
Temporal Sympathy sends your spell back in time. In that regard, you are a time traveler, but it's not like you're walking around and a local Time Mage will see you.

>If they don't have any Space, and their target didn't grow up in the same city the game takes place in, that's probably more than an hour's worth of travel to go find them and kill them.
Oh, gosh. People traveling in the modern day. That's so impractical.

>Even with you thinking I was talking about a temporal sympathy spell, you're kinda wrong; it takes 3 hours, at most, on a successful casting, at Gnosis 1-2.
When you cast the spell, you will not be in any position to be interrupted or interfered with. The only possible counters will be Time Mages in the area of the past your spell is working through who might then interfere with it. But your actual spell will do its duty far too fast for that.

>Well, first of all, stop trying to railroad players.
A game can be derailed without you step-by-step planning your game out for them and directing them, moron.

>Second of all, if your player's angry enough at an NPC to go back in time or shoot a spell at their past to try and kill them, it's probably not at all derailing the plot, because they would be trying to kill them anyways. It's your own fault for not expecting the player with Time to use Time to do things.
Unlike any other means of killing them, it's only Time travel that requires a rewrite of the game setting, undoes the actions of other PCs, messes with what they know, and strips out the relevance of everyone except the Time mage.

Also, just another thought, maybe when the player returns to the present after time-ganking their target as an infant, someone else DOES remember them, and starts to look into what happened?
That's a Mystery, and a potential threat.

>>47107286
>>47107295
Time is weird. I'd probably pause the game for a moment and ask the players if there were any personal things they wouldn't mind being changed as a result of the weird time shit, then resume the game with their wishes in mind. If they don't want anything changed, then things will be kept as in-tact as possible(eg, assuming they knew the target prior to Awakening, the target will still be dead, but it won't have any massive impact on their character in the present.)

>>47107338
>but it's not like you're walking around and a local Time Mage will see you.
When you cast the spell, you will not be in any position to be interrupted or interfered with. The only possible counters will be Time Mages in the area of the past your spell is working through who might then interfere with it. But your actual spell will do its duty far too fast for that.
From the book, pages 185 and 186
>When an object or person is in the past, the distortion is visible to onlookers using Active Mage Sight with Time, and as she changes history everything she alters also picks up a telltale temporal aura.
>While still in the past, if the spell that projected the traveler backwards is dispelled, he returns to the present but any changes he made to history are reversed.
Logically, anybody with Time Sight who sees someone with that temporal aura is going to *at least* have some questions.

>Oh, gosh. People traveling in the modern day. That's so impractical.
I never said it was impractical. You're the one who implied nothing could possibly interrupt a Time Mage travelling to and killing their target in the past; what about distance? What about a traffic accident? What about *literally anything*, in between their home and the destination they're casting the spell from?

>Unlike any other means of killing them, it's only Time travel that requires a rewrite of the game setting, undoes the actions of other PCs, messes with what they know, and strips out the relevance of everyone except the Time mage.
See >>47107339 for an alternate way of handling it that doesn't involve rewriting the entire setting. Alternatively, just remove the singular now-dead NPC, and have everything else stay mostly the same, if it's THAT big of an issue to you. You only have to make any big changes if you want the players to face consequences; otherwise, you can just say anything important the dead Mage did was actually done by someone else, now.

>>47107474
>Logically, anybody with Time Sight who sees someone with that temporal aura is going to *at least* have some questions.
Yes, there's stuff to be suspicious about as the past-magic is working. But it only works for a short time and then the changes become lasting timeline alterations. Note the "While still in the past" line- you'll only be there for a very, very brief time.

>I never said it was impractical. You're the one who implied nothing could possibly interrupt a Time Mage travelling to and killing their target in the past; what about distance? What about a traffic accident? What about *literally anything*, in between their home and the destination they're casting the spell from?
I was obviously referring to magical threats, as countering Time mages with other Time mages was brought up. Mundane problems aren't a concern for Mages.
> Alternatively, just remove the singular now-dead NPC, and have everything else stay mostly the same, if it's THAT big of an issue to you. You only have to make any big changes if you want the players to face consequences; otherwise, you can just say anything important the dead Mage did was actually done by someone else, now.
Handwaving away all potential timeline shifts only solves part of the issues Time brings up (and unsatisfyingly, at that).

The better fix: replace Temporal Sympathy.

>>47106283
Who knows himself a braggart, let him fear this, for it will come to pass that every braggart shall be found an ass

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>>47101940
>>47101952
If you could only see the beauty of the world's structure, you'd see that it isn't Fallen at all. It's a brilliant diagram of power. Its threads are like rivers of light that flow from the Exarchs. The world regulates it into great tributaries, canals bordered by social structures and perfected wills and at the bottom, small streams of carefully measured power -- just enough to slake a Sleeper's weak aspirations.

Another world existed before the Throne, before the current cycle of history, where there was no structure. There were dragons, gods and their appeasers. There was a half-wise Awakened City ruled by the willing slaves of Supernal intelligences. They followed dragons, honored gods and hoarded gifts from above. They bargained for just enough light to warm themselves, caring nothing for the darkness beyond their walls.

That's why they lost.

Don't misunderstand. This isn't a fairy tale about freeing the oppressed. It's about the power of oppression: the benefits of a world of servants. Atlantis' error mirrored the character of mages themselves. No other beings combine idealism and ambition the way sorcerers do. The Awakened hate half measures. If they could not bring heaven crashing to earth, they would hoard enough of it to satisfy themselves.

The Exarchs found a third way. They became gods, and made the barrier unconquerable. They ascended divine thrones clothed in mortal flesh, and remade the cosmos in their image. They imposed order on chaos. Stones stopped moving. Trees stopped demanding the blood-price for their fruit. The Exarchs made a new age of mortal flesh; an age of the ax and the miner's chisel; of pain and toil, unanswered prayers and eternal death. Out of chaos and potential, the new world created limits and certainty: structure. In it, some will be slaves and some will be kings, but only initiates of the Throne see the secret shape of its power: the way to Ascend from iron chains to adamantine crowns.

>>47099963
It's mythological, based on how since Hades was the god of the Underworld, the Dead and Mineral Wealth were under his domain. As a gameplay thing it's shit so feel free to throw the paths out.

>>47107900
The Chronicler's Guide has some great alternatives

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>>47101940
>Are the Exarchs really the bad guys?
No
>Couldn't they just be part of the "natural" state of the world
Maybe, but asking questions about where the Exarchs came from is pretty risky friend
>or even keeping it from going wrong?
Yes

>>47101940
>Are the Exarchs really the bad guys?
The Exarchs are the only reason the world hasn't been swallowed by the Abyss. Sure, they created the Abyss in the first place, but really credit where it's due.

>How can Mages be so convinced that their understanding of the Supernal is right?
Because the Supernal is truth.
Everything other than that fact is transitory.

>>47102987
>Plus they mess with the
Your opinion stoped mattering at this point.

>>47108103
>Sure, they created the Abyss in the first place,
Actually believing this. Pfft. The Abyss was always there. Check Left-Hand Path.

>>47108278
Ah yes, the book about people who are quite literally insane.

>>47108312
Excuse you, we Tremere are not insane in the least

>>47108312
No, you're meant to say, "B-But the Gate!" And I was meant to reply, "Hush. We're not supposed to talk about Le Gate!"

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The old denizens of the Supernal Realms that the Exarchs cast down long ago, the mightiest spirits and other beings whose powers defy categorization, must all be brought to heel; they are powerful, uncontrollable elements. Petty supernatural creatures are tolerable, but their patrons might set their sights on the higher realms.

The Supernal Realms have many gods. The Exarchs couldn't destroy them all (if they could, the Supernal Realms would probably be too barren to let the cosmos live, much less allow Awakenings) but they displaced enough of them to carve out their thrones. Gods don't die easily, and in some cases, were cast out of the higher worlds instead. Some mages believe that even the "dead gods" could not really die, and were banished to the Abyss instead.

The surviving exiles hide in the invisible worlds and occasionally, the material plane. Some take familiar forms out of human myths and legends, but a few retain their Atlantean Age personas. Perhaps they're what allow mages to channel the Supernal through myths, since as former Supernal beings, they still carry a fragment of that purest essence.

The Exarchs fear the gods. They're random elements in the Fallen system, whose Supernal powers lie beyond the Throne's command. Not even the Throne can anticipate what would happen if Creation's old masters challenged them.

The Abyss is a terrible threat, but it's also necessary. It makes Awakenings difficult, keeps the Fallen World a small, pain-ridden place, enforces the Sleeping Curse and gives rogue mages one more threat to deal with. Still, it can't be allowed to drown the world in darkness, so the Exarchs charge their agents with patrolling the borders of the Fallen World. Occasional incursions are permissible; full-scale invasions are not.

>>47108433
Brother what is this Gate you are babbling? I'm sure no one here is interesting in this rambling, please be so good as to follow my retainers there to the fresh air so you may calm you shattered nerves.

>>47108503
>can't be allowed to drown the /world in darkness/
The games were literally titled World of Darkness.

Good job there fellas!

>>47104792
>The Seers fight tooth and nail to keep the recording industry tied to physical CDs in opposition to digital services, because wider distribution breeds wider availability
these 2e seers are just too fucking evil that's what

>>47108312
Pretty sure the Abyss has always existed, it just didn't use to leak into everything.

>>47108503
What book is this from?

>>47109100
The Big Bad Book of House Tremere and some other losers

>>47108924
Whether they created the Abyss or just unleashed it on reality, the difference is a mere quibble over terms.

The fact is, it's still their fault.

>>47109191
That rather hinges on the Abyss being a bad thing don't you think?

Here is a question. You guys really think 'Mind of a Madman' is worth being considered a 'Supernatural Merit'?

Like, if we hold to that, having freaky dreams about possible future murders is enough to get you considered a sleepwalker, and therefore immune to magical disquiet dissonance paradumb (I somehow have forgotten the word for whatever the Mage thing is right now.)

>>47109243
I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement that it is indeed a bad thing.

>>47109257
But just think of the possibilities anon, why in all those realities that couldn't possibly exist in the supernal cosmos there must be at least one where you aren't slurping down cock!

>>47109277
That sounds horrible, though. Why would I want that reality to exist?

anyone got any gametales or greentext stories about WoD?

>>47109370
Yeah sure.

>>47109345
Well of course you wouldn't want that, that's the point. Same reason really why we need to go to the well to get a spirit ecology that isn't fucking shit.

>>47109381
mind telling em?

>>47109403
Yes I do mind thank you very much

>>47109382
But that's why the Abyss is evil! It contains a world where I don't have all the cock I can choke on!

No, wait, it's even worse than that! That's this reality! The Abyss has won ;_;
Curse the Exarchs!

>>47109123
So i assume thats left handed path then?

>>47109447
The tremere are liches, so yeah.

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>>47109412
Forgot this was 4chan

>>47109447
Very. They eat souls to live forever.

>>47109414
No that's just me magicing all the dicks to my location. We're cutting you off billy you're just too hooked on semen

>>47109512
But that means you are the exarchs

>>47109523
I'm a motherfucking sexual tyrannosaurus bitch. By which I mean the Raptor Bow before my Iron Seal and suck on mah scaly toes

>>47109255
Quiesence

And yeah, the fluff explanation for Mind of a Madman isn't just 'freaky dreams', it's 'mentally mimicking the mind of a criminal', in a distinctly supernatural way.

>>47109462
>>47109499
I meant i assume the book is left handed path

>>47109624
You shouldn't assume things anon, you know what that does to you and me

>>47109572
... but I'm not into feet. Or scalies.

>>47109624
Not that guy, but yes, it is. Chapter 3, page 59

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ok but seriously do any of you have any stories you're willing to share about some awesome moments in a chronicle?

>>47109650
Oh please like I can't make you be with archmastery in Life.

>>47109512
>Being this oppressive
Exarchs please

>>47109255
Prophetic dreams WOULD be an inherent supernatural merit and therefore make you a Sleepwalker.

If you want to think about it in Mage terms, the Truths of Arcadia are speaking to you in your sleep, letting you Sleepwalk.

>>47109692
The body may be willing, but the mind is never so easily broken.

And by that I mean I've got my inner demons literally fortifying my psyche. They're all named Fred, except for the one named Elane, and they are easily pissed off.

>>47109750
I don't give a shit about your mind bitch I'm the Rapetor. Choo choo

>>47109769
>Rape

Now, see, there is where you fucked up. I'm associated with like 80 different symbols for consensual sex. Now, given most of them are rather kinky, and some of them are downright immoral if you aren't a mage, but still!

>>47109889
Oh gee real interesting. Let me insert three letters there. Good, now you're associated with like 80 different symbols for nonconsensual sex. Lol non-ascended plebians.

>>47109669
Well, there's always my old Werewolf game
>First session, we head to a club in our territory to do our Siskur-Dah ritual on a local Azlu population, planning to do it on the roof
>The top floor is kept entirely separated from the rest of the club, and there's a guard outside. He mentions that it's a private party, hosted by "Joy". Our Irraka Hunter in Darkness is like 'oh no'. He won't explain why.
>Manage to convince the guard to let us past, iirc by way of our Rahu's fist and his skull having a brief conversation. We get up, and the room is full of rich people from various groups within the city, including the government, having a fancy party
>At a table in the middle is a blue-haired, blue-toothed woman. Initially, we're thinking maybe Changeling. At the other end of the table is our Ithaeur's Abuser touchstone.
>Ithaeur: "I shift into Gauru and let Death Rage kick in, then howl."
>My Cahalith's Trigger is hearing a wolf or werewolf howl on my auspice moon. It's a Gibbous Moon, so I go into soft rage while the Ithaeur goes into hard rage.
>She goes straight for her Abuser and eats him, I end up tackling an old lady and killing her before I manage to rein myself in and calm down.
>The Ithaeur keeps killing people. The Rahu and I(In Dalu, holding off soft rage) run in and grab her, then haul her through another door so she can't kill anybody, and hold her down for the next 10 minutes.
>Half the people in the room start jumping out the windows, some become Wolf-Blooded, others just stare directly at us as we drag her off.
>Eventually she calms down and we all revert to Hishu. The three of us peek back out and see that there's a massive amount of dead people in the room, and one of us decides to start a fire to cover the whole thing up as best we can.
>Someone picks up the few pieces of the Abuser that are left and throws them in a pizza box. Session ends roughly there.
>cont...

>>47109930

>We head for the IBT's house, iirc, to lay low until the heat dies down over the fire and the sudden government wolf-blooded. IBT throws the pizza box aside on the way there, and it later gets found, which leads to a big investigation squad coming in to check things out later in the game.

People have said before that they think the Ithaeur's player is an idiot. Personally, I disagree; it made sense, with her character, and it set up an interesting situation for the rest of the game.

We also later had a run-in at a mental hospital with a giant bee-madness magath, while everything was on fire.

>>47109942
Post cressie moon tits plz

>>47109925
And then suddenly the Pax Arcana

>>47110034
>implying you're important enough for the pax to care
Now come on put your tongue into it

I think my biggest gripe with the Mage 2e book is that not all of the settings have usable info on the local Consilium
If I want to run a game in London, I've got a few names and basic info for Cabals and important people, and things actively going on in the Consilium.
But if I want to run a game in Los Angeles? All I know is that the Guardians have more members than usual, and the Diamond and Assembly aren't on the best of terms.

>>47110067
Now now, we both know that wasn't what I was talking about.

You see, you just changed the association of symbols. Symbols other people more important than myself are invested in. The Pax reverses such changes, thus leaving me unmolested, metaphorically, metaphysically, and physically.

>>47109925
>Implying Raptor could do anything about Mind

This thread got weird.

>>47110711
It did. I was about to tell them to fuck off back to /d/ earlier, but I got distracted.

>>47110368
Nah bitch lrn2magic I changed your association to symbols by swapping out kinky shit for rapey shit, not their association to one another. If that was a violation of the Pax Arcana we'd be going after everyone of you podunk mages since that's how your magic works dingus
>>47110727
Speaking of violation here's another for the pile

So what makes Time killing someone more dangerous than Space killing them?
Doesn't it just double the number of potential defenses they have?

A Seer who wants to kill someone with Time from somewhere else in the world still has to first succeed at the Space based sympathy, which can get stopped by all the defenses a Mage has active against Space magic. So already nearly impossible, because Space magic is something Mages take a lot of care to protect themselves from.
Even if you succeed at that the sympathetic casting, you still have to go against all the defense they might have active against Time magic. Which every single Mage inside a Sanctum will have, because Sanctums are protected against that kind of shit.
Even if you succeed at the entire endeavour and happen to cast at someone who isn't protected, a significant number of Mages will have been and can undo your murder at any later date. Instead of just killing your enemy irreversibly, you chose the one method that any other Mage at any later point in the timeline can just decide to retroactively undo. Because every Mage with Time can just send back a counterspell in time to undo your little murder attempt.

In summary, by using Time your doubled the number of defenses your target has and used a way that is easily undoable. Seems like a sucker's tactic.

>>47110912
>So what makes Time killing someone more dangerous than Space killing them?

There's no body, and since all the magic's effects are retroactively made Lasting in the present, there's nothing to look for or notice as being off.

None of the Mage's cabal mates or allies will notice their absence, because the Mage never joined that cabal and never made those allies to begin with.

>>47110912
>So what makes Time killing someone more dangerous than Space killing them?
Time retroactively kills them, erasing all their alliances, connections, secrets, etc., etc. No one will want to avenge them or save them on account of no one having any emotional connections to them.

You're also overlooking the fact you avoid a Mage's personal defenses by indirectly attacking via Time. You don't try to snuff out the life of baby Mage with magic he can be protected against, you control the homeless man down the street from his childhood home and have him stomp the kid's brains in.

>>47110950
so, not a single Mage was in a protected Sanctum at that point or had personal Time defenses active?
Seems like bullshit.
A good number of mages in any sanctum will remember your chages and can undo them with a snap of their finger. "Nothing to look for" my ass.

>>47110965
>A good number of mages in any sanctum will remember your chages and can undo them with a snap of their finger.
No, the changes are lasting once you return to the future (which is instantly, if using Temporal Sympathy). They're non-magical. That's just how it is.

>>47110986
And Constant Presence still gives those changes the middle finger. Tough luck.

>>47111026
Constant Presence gives you the chance to avoid falling under the timeline's sway via a Clash of Wills. You can lose the Clash of Wills.

Even if you succeed, you don't actually gain any information about what happened; it's entirely possible you never knew anyone involved, and thus nothing seems different to you, nor are your memories incongruous with anyone else's.

It also doesn't actually stop anyone from fucking with Time.

>>47111026
Why would you have Constant Presence up 24/7? No one can maintain that level of paranoia unless they knew for certain someone was trying to kill them.

>>47111039
>Constant Presence gives you the chance to avoid falling under the timeline's sway via a Clash of Wills. You can lose the Clash of Wills.
CoW needs direct conflict between powers. The way the Time may chose to go about their business is unnecessrilily indirect, and there is no direct conflict. I doubt the attacker would even get to CoW the defense.

>>47111045
As the anon that's been arguing Time is overpowered bullshit: no, Constant Presence is definitely one of the few spells it's justifiable to keep up all the time. One of the first things you should do as a Mage is dip into Time, cut your ancestry as far back as you possibly can, and then throw up Constant Presence and never let it fall.

Otherwise, you're gonna get destroyed by Time.

>>47111045
I'm talking about any Mage in a Sanctum at that point. Because every Sanctum will have protection. Did you miss that word "Sanctum"?
Also, any Mage who just happens to have a defense active at that point by chance.

Or, you know, any Mage who, at a later date, looked back at their own timeline for changes done to it and decide to send a protective spell back in time when they notice your shennanigans.

>>47111057
So we now live in a world where every Mage worth their salt has Time 2.

>>47111045
Realistically, any Consillium worth its salt is going to have multiple heavily-warded locations and individuals. Sancta warded against Space magic are hardly uncommon—there's no reason they wouldn't also shield important things against Time magic, too.

>>47111067
>>47111070
>>47111072
"Every Mage stays in a heavily shielded bunker forever" is both a reasonable and expected outcome of the rules as they are written.

Much like Jon Chung's famous "Solars will never leave their underground bunkers" argument, its reasonableness doesn't make it any less fucking awful.

Just remove Temporal Sympathy. Fixed!

>>47111070
I think people are somewhat over-stating the dangers of Time magic. I was one of the first people to post my concerns about Temporal Sympathy, so yeah, I get why everyone's concerned. But think about it:

Making alterations to the timeline—ANY alterations, no matter how small—will have serious consequences that you can't very well predict. We're all familiar with the Butterfly Effect. Most Mages will probably never cast spells back in time at their enemies unless the situation is extremely dire, because doing so means that you believe your target poses such a huge threat that you would rather alter the whole world in potentially drastic and unpredictable ways than deal with a world that has them in it.

Thus, fucking with the past will for the most part remain the provence of the extremely powerful or the extremely insane—the two categories of Mages who are mostly likely to have enemies of their own who are equally powerful / insane. Whatever they do won't go unanswered. I think Temporal Sympathy is supposed to be the kind of thing that you focus entire plot arcs around, if you decide to bring it up in your game. It certainly isn't going to be as common as some people are making it out to be.

>>47111130
"Maybe they won't do this incredibly broken thing" is a real shitty defense of it.

How about you just not let that incredibly broken thing be doable?

What happens if you bind a soul to a ghost?

>>47105895
Ok, let me rephrase - they made phantasms crap to the point of uselessness and I'm butturt as fuck about it.

They limited them to no-moving parts in Weaving despite their being no real reason for it (which flies in the face of thier claim that they were removing speedbumps in the arcana).

They pushed animating your own phantasms, which would logically be a Ruling (2 dot) effect back from Patterning (4 dots) in 1 e, where it never belonged, to Making (5 dots) in 2e, where it REALLY doesn't belong. Again for no reason and in spite of them claiming they would no longer artificially stagger effects that shouldn't be according to the practices they'd written.

And finally they got rid of the one actual Making effect it should have had by removing the Forge Tulpa effect from the new edition.

>>47111142
You get a ghost with a soul. It's one of the ways Mages cheat death actually.

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>>47111142
>What happens if you bind a soul to a ghost?
It'd restore the ghost to its full, living faculties. Maybe even allowing the shade to completely separate itself from its dependence on anchors, allowing it to remain in Twilight indefinitely without the narrow range of action allowed by the nature of its anchor.

>>47109523
In the Lower Depths, there is necessarily a world amongst the disparaged realms that will satiate your craving for dick.

>>47102687
>gay werewolfs
Dark Eras will satisfy your flagrant degeneracy. I highly recomend it that bookd for your lupine predelictions.

>>47111142
You get a pissed of Krewe knocking on your door for an explanation.

Is there a PDF floating around of Chronicles of Darkness?

>>47108670
The Seers are the greatest enemy of the Pentacle, and all good feuds it comes down to their essential similarity; Mad Ones, Liches, and Banishers are all aberrant in some way, slid off the parameters of being "proper" mages. Abyssal Entities are more forces of (un)nature than relateable antagonists, and are only slightly worse than ghosts, spirits, goetia, and Supernal entities.

Seers, though, Seers are just like you. They've got their own political structure, but so do the Free Council. They have potent tricks up their sleeve (perhaps more potent than those the Pentacle have, at the hefty cost of service to the Supernal Tyrants), but ultimately, Seers are just mages. Anyone can Awaken, decide "fuck the world, I'm going to get mine" and join them. That's why the sects hate one another so much; they're mirror-images.

The Seers of the Throne had a bumpy ride as antagonists, until eventually earning their place as probably Mage's primary source of opposition for player cabals. Some books, like Sanctum and Sigil, remembered to spend time on them, while others all-but ignored them. Depending on which book you read, the sixth Order may as well not have existed.

That changed -- for the better -- when the Seer book came out. Every Mage release since then has had Seer content in it. Maybe not much, but when it was writen; the Chronicler's Guide, Imperial Mysteries, or Left Hand Path, they were always careful to at least address what the Ministries thought about the subject at hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0NIM4uSNXw

>>47111331
>>>47091000
https://my.mixtape.moe/qsavpb.pdf

>>47111359
Cheers mate, Drive Thru RPG is already stiffing me a ton on shipping to Australia and $40 US without also adding in the PDF.

>>47111221
>It's one of the ways Mages cheat death actually.

Most ghost mages are simply ghosts, like any other beyond a tendency to high Rank and Influences that sometimes resemble the Praxes and Attainments of the mage they're formed from. A minority, though, are free-willed, clear-minded and retain all their powers, the mages' mind and soul somehow staying attached to the ghost instead of vanishing upon death.

>>47111403
it's all grouse drongo

what are the ways to cheat death?

>>47111435
Assuming you're not set on being a Mage, all sort of shit. Read Immortals, especially the last chapter with all the minor options.

If you're a Mage, options need to be a bit more carefully thought out. Rebirth numen (Book of Spirits) is still my favourite option, but it does involve killing two other Mages every 80 years or so

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>>47111435

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>>47111435
Immortality is difficult in Mage, and the various options aren't palatable for most Awakened. Indefinite Life or Death spells are the easiest, but least secure – you're one dispellation away from a painful and sudden demise. Some liches forcibly transplant their minds and souls into younger bodies, some work on permanent transformation into ephemeral entities, usually via a Legacy that turns them into a Ghost, Spirit, or Goetia while retaining their consciousness and capability with magic.

"Morpheans," (one example of which is one of the Mastigos signature characters) are astral liches, stalking the Temenos looking for Mysteries of the inner worlds. Some mages cast spells to bind their own ghosts into their bodies, becoming unaging corpse-things devoted to a magical task, like the Barrow-wights of old Catalonia, who emerge once every few centuries to astrally-project themselves in search of Atlantis. Most Pentacle Convocations even go so far as to class ghost mages as liches –- most ghost mages are simply ghosts, like any other beyond a tendency to high Rank and Influences that sometimes resemble the Praxes and Attainments of the mage they're formed from. A minority, though, are free-willed, clear-minded and retain all their powers, the mages' mind and soul somehow staying attached to the ghost instead of vanishing upon death.

Liches represent fall from humanity--Awakened mages sometimes decry their humanity, or believe themselves better than Sleepers, but liches have crossed the line separating a mage from a true monster. That line isn't always clear, and the Orders argue about how far from human makes a mage a liche, while those Legacies who shape their physical forms past humanity who don't survive beyond death have to make their status as not-liches exceedingly clear at Convocation.

Mage 2e has more explicit examples. Here: >>47111452