All settings, from WH40k to Gundam, derive from this in some

I wouldn't go so far as to define ir the LotR of sci-fi but YES it's been a huge influence and it's worth reading.

It shares that title with Dune desu

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>>47036339
imho also with the lensman series without wich you wouldn't have half of Space Opera's tropes and Star Trek and Babilon 5 wouldn't have been possible.
Desu ne~

I've never read it, but I've heard it as a recommended read for late teens.

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>>47036274
...You mean War of the Worlds, right?

>>47036516
No, I don't

>>47036500
>I'm a mature adult that reads mature literature exclusively! I'm really fun at parties, can I read segments from Ulysses for you? no? ok..

>>47036516

what the fuck

wastebasket

why

>>47037210
That's where they store humans so that they can farm them and feed on their blood later.

>>47036274
>It's the science fiction equivalent to LotR.

You haven't read much Heinlein, right?

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>>47036274
Gonna need some major >implying for that, son.
Pretty sure Asimov is the Tolkien of Sci-Fi

>>47036339
>>47036370
>>47037681
All correct.
What Starship Troopers is the granddaddy of is space marines in power armor jumping out of starships, and maybe humans fighting an insectoid alien species.

As for your question, op, I'd say it's worth a read. Some folks don't like it because of the message it's trying to convey, but fuck them. It's a classic of the genre and worth a read.

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>>47037489

>into the trash you go
>penngillettewithtentacles.jpg

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>>47036274
I believe so as well, but I think that one of Starship Troopers' tropes has been catastrophic for science fiction writers and for that matter anyone interested in the future of mankind:

Starship Troopers posits a society in which personal responsibility is the greatest civic virtue. This puts it higher on the Utopian scale of unrealistically perfect humans than the Communist Manifesto, which is saying something.

People small of mind tend to interpret this as "fascism," presumably because they have literally never read anything about fascism from any source.

If I had to point to The Science Fiction piece, though, the one with the most long-lasting implications, I'd have to point to one that literally nobody today has read: The Night Land.

Holy fucking shit, read this work. It was written a hundred years ago by a guy who was trying to emulate how people wrote a hundred years ago *at the time he was writing,* meaning he was emulating a literary style from when Andrew Jackson was still young.

It's a science fiction fantasy piece of basically unparalleled badassitude. Everything is there. Chainsaw-axes, Huge Arcologies, world-ending monsters, lovecraftian horror (Lovecraft commented that the guy had a horrifying imagination even by his standards) and somehow he combines this with a straight up Love Across the Ages message that completely BTFOs every other attempt of it in history.

If you want to watch Beowulf in power armor with a chainsaw axe go up against Lovecraft's nightmares in a dystopian world worse than literally anything else ever written, read The Night Lands.

>>47037897
go to sleep Jimmy.

>>47037897
>a horrifying imagination even by his standards
>"He was as deep as time and had teeth the color of fear and nightmares." (Lovecraft,1930)

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>>47037920
Don't break the kayfabe you fuck.

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>>47037897
>People small of mind tend to interpret this as "fascism," presumably because they have literally never read anything about fascism from any source.

Don't you have homework to do? Starship Troopers is a self-perpetuating dystopia in the same vein as Brave New World and 1984. You'll probably cover one or both of those in the next few years so try to pay attention in class. And read some earlier sci-fi while you're at it. I bet you think Evangelion invented giant robots, don't you?

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>>47038215
Name me one dystopian element of Starship Troopers that isn't the continued existence of Filipinos.

>>47036339
Dune is excellent and sold well, but I wouldn't say it had a big impact on sci fi.

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>No one mentions Asimov's Foundation
>It beat out LOTR, Lensmen, and the Barsoom books to win a special "Best all-time series" Hugo

I WANT THE CASUALS TO LEAVE

>>47038750
>>47037681
read the thread.

>>47038758
But if he did that he couldn't mount his high horse

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>>47036274
Its really not if you not 14yo, its boring fascist military pulp with author's wank to utopian society, movie was best at mocking it.

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>>47036274
Just a sec anon, ill hand you over the pdf so you can read it and see for yourself.

>>47036333
It had the first space marines, first orbital drop pods, first jetpacks (as far as i know) and the setting was a large interstellar war between humans and some alien bugs.

Also psykers who could read bug minds and planet cracking bombs towards the end of the book a'la exterminatus.

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>>47036274
>It's the science fiction equivalent to LotR
That is funny way to spell Frank Herbert's Dune.

>>47038808
Never read Dune (it sounds dry) what sort of things have their roots therein?

>>47038818
God Emperor, interstellar rotten Empire with declining technology, ban of AI, navigators, shape shifting assassins, all male and female supersoldier orders.

>>47038818
Hate for robots and A.I, humanity is ruled over by an emperor and several noble houses, all interstellar traffic is handled by a spacing guild that uses a substance called spice which prolongs their lifes and mutates them...

Hold on, ill get you a video about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E47WzoluOH0

>>47038841
God emperor appeared on later books.

>>47038818
The first Star Wars rips Dune's setting then removes all the nuance and intrigue.

>>47038841
>>47038847
Those are hardly common traits in sci fi though. There's several notable settings that use them, but there's a hell of a lot that don't.

I don't think you could even begin to compare Dune's legacy to Lord of the Rings

>>47038295
>posts on filipino finger paints forum
>complains about filipinos

>>47038871
I'm inclined to agree with this guy, none of those elements strike me as omnipresent

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>>47038774
Social Justice Warrior confronted with conflicting ideas.

>>47036274

This guy is part of the answer to your question: Can you deal with a semi-militaristic world view that is not your own and not completely condemned by the narrator?
If so give it a try, the character development of the main character is certainly convincing and interesting and Heinlein is a master at contemplating small details, which would alter social conventions in everyday life within a new environment be it space or simply a more advanced future.

>>47038871
>Social Justice Warrior confronted with conflicting ideas.
If any i am right wing capitalist.
I just know you can't built democratic society if it ruled by military people, you will get either junta or stalinism/nazism.

>>47038934 => >>47038912

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>>47038215
>Starship Troopers
>a self-perpetuating dystopia
>sociology major detected

Disagree. Heinlein set his tales almost exclusively in what he considered mankind's ultimate future utopia:

Terrans becoming an unstoppable, united and fully rational culture that recognized that its self-determination in the greater galaxy was best served when based on a global, then a system and then a stellar meritocracy. But by proposing the horrible idea that any people objectively, empirically and mathematically proven to produce physically compromised and/or retarded offspring could be denied Citizenship (the moral equivalent, evidently, of gassing them and shoveling the corpses into ovens), Heinlein was labeled a "fascist" and his speculative universe of meanie-head cripple haters "dystopian" by a number of people with liberal arts degrees.

>>47039014
I bet you collect guardsmen/black templars.

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>>47039027

Chaos, actually. What's your next theory to be, Darwin?

>>47039014
Gotta agree with this guy.
Beyond that and the relatively harsher punishments for crimes, the world didn't look too bad, people could own businesses and there was at least some form of democracy, (though it was based on meritocracy) also i don't think there was any mentions of mass surveillance or any bars stopping people from owning private property or even holding different beliefs.

>>47039053
You think you are smarter than everyone else and society doesn't recognise your true value

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>>47039053
Even better.

>>47039053
Your name name is not important. What is important is what you are going to do... You just fuckin' hate this world. And the human worms feasting on its carcass. Your whole life is just cold, bitter hatred. And you always wanted to die violently. This is your time of vengeance and no life is worth saving. And you will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for you to kill. And it's time for you to die.

>>47039062
>also i don't think there was any mentions of mass surveillance or any bars stopping people from owning private property or even holding different beliefs.
That is because narrator was from rich and powerful family, of course you can live in third reich freely if you rich.

>>47039109
>Rich and powerful family
His whole family were civilians and his dad owned a small company, beyond that they weren't that influential and still they didn't have to eat sawdust porridge or extra processed meat rations.

>>47036274
It's worth reading. >>47038789 posted the .pdf (albeit with a weird cover) but it's a fun book with an interesting background and gave birth to power armor. What's not to like? Personally, I'd recommend starting off with Starship Troopers, then reading The Forever War, and then finish off with Armor.

>>47038818
All these people talking about God Emperors are being silly. What Dune did is set up science fantasy. Noble houses, spess swordfights, magic, mutants, and spess Chosen Ones. Dune set up Star Wars.

Plus it's pretty good. At least give the first one a go. Betrayal, vengeance, knife fights with monster teeth, and desert waifus. It's a fun read, although it is dry in parts.

>>47038871
You sure as heck can't compare ST legacy to LOTR either.

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>>47039423
I'd actually agree with you there. There's no LOTR equivalent in sci-fi and this thread is silly, especially when it's essentially a /lit/ question.

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>>47038934

Thanks for sharing your educational gaps with us.
Original democracy was based exactly arround the system demonstrated in Starship Troopers, it is not even a subtle hint.

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A united humanity against an unquestionable foe...

It is pretty simple sci-fi.

I got some write faggotry based off this if you guys want something to distract you for however long it takes you to read it

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>>47039645
You seems to have a good point at comparing antique slavery society to modern postindustrial.

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>>47036274
Its worth reading, but it isn't the LotR of Scifi by a long shot. However it does have concepts/elements which you can see informed WH40K type space marines (bio-mech power suited super warriors) and the battle strategies of Mechwarrior type stuff.

>>47037768
>Some folks don't like it because of the message it's trying to convey

what message is that?

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>>47039838

Well they definetely didn't turn into
>facism, stalinism or a military junta

A historical precedent is all I need to invest to disprove such an absolute statement without any explanation or empirical data to back it up.

>>47040045
Man up and fight for your rights. Self help, self reliance

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>>47036274
>It's the science fiction equivalent to LotR

That's strange, nobody in this thread seems to be talking about Book of the New Sun

>>47040109
Name one successful modern free country ruled by militarist and muh worthy citizens.

>>47040179
North Korea

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>>47040125
>>47040045
>>47037768
This is where people struggle with Heinlein. Stranger in a Strange Land is about utopian socialism, Starship Troopers is about fascism and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is about anarchism. If they all were supposed to have a message, his body of work would be totally incoherent. The point isn't to sell the reader something (although you have to forgive people for thinking so, since almost everyone tries to), it's to explore different ideas and let the reader decide what humanity can learn from them. Shockingly enough, writing about fascism doesn't mean Heinlein was a fascist, anymore than writing about Arrakis meant Frank Herbert was a sandworm.

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>>47040261
Nice answer.

>>47039014
>>47038789
>>47038774
>>47038215
>>47037897
Except you're all wrong you fucking retards.
1) heinlein's actual "utopian" writing is in "Stranger from a Strange land" in wich he more or less outs himself as a dirty hippie and a fedora. "The Moon is an harsh mistress", "starship troopers","have a space suit will travel" and others are his more pragmatic books and short stories in wich he talks of the importance of civil service, discipline and self reliance. Things our zeitgeist ridicules at it's risk. This is also the reason they've been marketed to late teens:they were meant as the first semi serious book you'd read on some specific arguments. The fact that today's level of education is so abismal they're above many so called adult's comprehension is worrying.
2) nowhere in the book the federation is presented as utopian in any way shape or form: it's presented as a pragmatic compromise between democracy and the need of separating economic, cultural and military power to prevent the excesses of "the crazy years" to happen again ("the crazy years" are when we're living right now: SJW bureaucratic socialist paradise). It's also directly stated that originated from the afterward of WW3 with the express reason to avoid WW4. So reader discrection and all that.
3) It also guarantees such standards of living, rights, actual freedom (ad opposed to brave new world) etc to everyone in particular to it's non citizens that anyone calling it a dystopia should be lobotomize because they're clearly not using their frontal lobe anyway.
4) it has women in the military and a filipino protagonist in the 1950s. You'd think that would please the diversity crowd. AHAH FAT CHANCE. They were SOOO pleased they Made a movie that was a deliberate mockery and never even tried to address any of the points of the book. SJWs allways lie.

>>47040179

That's not a proof, these are military dictatorships, which had neither democratic roots nor meritocratic roots to begin with, so unrelated to what you said:
> can't built democratic society if it ruled by military

The only thing that comes close is maybe modern Turkey until recently backed up by a military in kemalistic faith. Have to say I take that over what we have now...but even that is not too close to the meritocratic democracy which we are referring to. That's neither a proof for or against it, but the burden of proof is on you anyways.

>>47040285
You can blame the director for that, it was originally supposed to be a straight adaptation.

>>47040273
>writing about fascism doesn't mean Heinlein was a fascist
It's depressing how few people really grasp that idea now days

>>47040261
Except not because it's a communist utopia like all the others that aride trying to realize the fat, rich german college dropout's projects.

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>>47040299
>Turkey

>>47038306
>get a load of this retard

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>>47040285
>"the crazy years" are when we're living right now: SJW bureaucratic socialist paradise

you were doing so well too

Just go read Hammer's Slammers already

>>47040308
Except he wasn't even talking about fascism. He was talking about the effects of restricting the right of voting to those that risked their own neck for other people's safety; while mantaining economic and social freedom. Fascism is nothing like this.

>>47040273

You are half right, he experiences with ideas and systems, but I have to disaprove with two things:
1st facism is a meaningless buzzword and the world of Starship troopers doesn't share that many traits with the two existing facist systems 2nd Heinlein definetely has some recurring ideas and trends in all his work, such as idealizing self reliance, self responsiblity, responsibility to your pack, anti racism, gender roles and maning the fuck up by taking ineviteable confrontantions head on.

>>47040343
It's true. The West is a collection of decaying social democracies with no strenght and no future left. And that's due to cultural factors not physical ones.

>>47040418
okay buddy

>>47040386
I meant being able to write about something, ANYTHING, without being an advocate for it.

>>47036274
...even Star Wars? And Star Trek?

>>47040305
I also blame the producers that didn't fire him when they realized he was spending their money to shit on the book they spent a little fortune to get the rights of.

>>47040440
Star Wars, yes

>>47040428
Fine enought.

>>47040386
>>47040390

the one problem with Heinlein is it assumes those who serve in the military are inherently good or selfless people. In reality, this is about a third of the people in the military. the other 2/3rds are 1. people looking for money/college, and 2. People who want to be able to legally shoot guns and kill other people.

The mythologizing of soldiers as morally upright, selfless badasses is self aggrandizement that grows out of the whole citizen soldier construct. Soldiers are no more, no less morally stalwart than any other human being. Bubba J. Bilco is not inherently more wise than his fellow man just because he wanted to 'shoot some sand niggers'

Of course if you suggest soldiers are anything else than gold shitting philosopher kings you're asking for trouble, at least in America's gasping nationalistic political sphere.

>>47040448
In what way does Star Wars resemble Starship Troopers?

Star Wars doesn't have space marines in power armor jumping out of starships. Stormtrooper armor is barely effective at stopping a blaster bolt from a regular blaster pistol, for Chrissake.

Star Wars is inspired by Flash Gordon and King Arthur, not Starship Troopers

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>>47040482
Seconded.

>>47040493
Sorry, I got mixed up and thought you were replying to the Dune conversation earlier.

Star Wars also had a heavy inspiration from samurai movies like Akira's

>>47040482
>the one problem with Heinlein is it assumes those who serve in the military are inherently good or selfless people

Not at all, you didn't read the book very closely, did you.

>>47036274
The Night Land by William Hope Hodgson 1912

First mention of a force field that I know of in sci-fi.

>>47040386
Excluding people from the democratic process on ideological ground is fascist-tier of bad nation building, though. Especially when you chiefly favor the military, which is
a)in no way less retarded than any other human agency, and
b)only really good at being a military.
You could at least make a feeble argument for favoring the academia, or the corporations, or some forsaken aristocracy. Military is just a branch of government. Military is just a service. It would be no more profound that requiring you to work as a cop or a postman in order to be allowed to vote.

>>47040482
>>the one problem with Heinlein is it assumes those who serve in the military are inherently good or selfless people
Actually no, he assumes no such thing and you're intellectually dishonest to say otherwise if you've read the book. Rico is not even out of training and they've allready hanged a soldier for raping a little girl. You're simply assuming Heinlein wants to sell you his "utopia" (like Asimov and many moderns did) but he really doesn't want to. He wants you to think about the limitations of your system and where they do come from.

>>47040521
Oh, yeah, I agree with that - Dune is everywhere in Star Wars, and so is Akira Toriyama.

But it doesn't really resemble Starship Troopers, is my point.

Nor, for that matter, does Star Trek, which is more grounded in science than Star Wars is (though it's still very "soft" sci-fi). In point of fact I think Gene Roddenberry would be offended had Trek been compared to Troopers.

So getting back to OP...

>>47036274
>All settings, from WH40k to Gundam, derive from this in some way

I think you will find that this is only true for a certain kind of military science fiction. Off the top of my head, Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, FarScape, Stargate SG-1, Dune, and a dozen other sci-fi settings don't really have anything to do with them.

If you want to find the granddaddy of science fiction as a genre, I think you'll find it is more likely to be a mix of Edgar Rice Burroughs, H.G. Welles, and Jules Verne, with some later pulp stories like Flash Gordon thrown into the mix and the occasional touch of George Orwell and Isaac Asimov for good measure.

At least until you get to 1967 and 1977, at which point the new genesis for a huge portion of the genre is instead Star Trek and Star Wars respectively.

>>47040532
>>47040597
you two are correct and I apologize. I should rather say that the problem with people who EULOGIZE Heinlein's vision in Starship Troopers as an ideal eutopia for humanity gloss over the fact that soldiers are not inherently good people.

>>47040597

Even more he explicitely states that soldiers in that society are not more altruistic people per se, but that they value their right to vote more and hence put more thought into it

>>47040597

Even more it is explicitely stated by one officer that soldiers in that society are not smarter ore more altruistic people per se, but that they value their right to vote more and hence put more thought into it. And that's only the affirmative position from one of the supporters of this political system, his perspective

>>47040589
That's why in troopers you're not excluded on ideological grounds but on pragmatic grounds. You join the army? You get to vote, even if you're the dirtiest of hippies around.
Also remember: they've GOT to give you something to do. Some people in the federation join the army just to go through training and be sent to the K9 units or the Natural Disaster Relief Force.
These are all things you'd know if you'd read the book and not just searched it for some reason to get offended.

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I will always have a special place in my heart for the novel Starship Troopers.

It cured a friend of mine of being a real bleeding-heart-liberal ('90s UK edition) and into becoming a far more well rounded person. Not a flip to conservative, just a far more balanced outlook.

>>47040644
Correction accepted, We've had a couple in this very thread.

>>47040109
I mean it did turn into military junta.

>>47040644
This is the friendliest post I've ever seen on 4chan.

>>47040767
shut the fuck up faggot

>>47040309
North Korea's constitution doesn't even mention socialism, Marxism, or communism anymore.

>>47040305
No, it was originally going to be a completely different movie called something to the effect of "Bug Hunt", it just got the Starship Troopers name added on to it.

Also in fairness to said director, perhaps someone who lived in Belgium as a child when an awful lot of Germans marched in one fine evening in 1940 was not inclined to view Starship Troopers in a positive light.

>>47040801
So?
Are you arguing that a duck that destroys all documental proof that she's a duck a proceeds not changing a iota of its behaviour is suddenly not a duck anymore?

>>47040688
No, that is exclusion on ideological grounds. Doesn't matter who you are or what your other contributions to society may be, if you don't serve in the army you don't get to vote. The fact that it is so obvious how retarded the system is yet the system is still in place pretty clearly demonstrates that it exists for ideological reasons alone, or that ideology is an excuse for exerting pressure to keep such a system. Read some books other than those that you like.

>>47040688
>You join the army? You get to vote, even if you're the dirtiest hippy around
>even if you have an ideology that you would have to portray to join the army

I'm not even part of the discussion and you're retarded.

>>47040830
>perhaps someone who lived in Belgium as a child when an awful lot of Germans marched in one fine evening in 1940 was not inclined to view Starship Troopers in a positive light.
There's honestly no reason for think this for anyone that has honestly read the book.

>>47040852
A duck that can do all that is probably more than it meets the eye.

>>47036500
Here's the thing, Anon. A lot of Heinlein's fiction was written with serialization in Boys Life (the magazine of the BSA) in mind, and a lot of it is thus competency porn and about coming of age. This includes Starship Troopers.

This is no way makes these books unsuitable for adults. Most of them are still better reads than the gun porn we get so much of now in SF.

>>47040852
>Are you arguing that a duck that destroys all documental proof that she's a duck a proceeds not changing a iota of its behaviour is suddenly not a duck anymore?

To be honest, with regards to North Korea, I'm not sure it was ever a duck to begin with. Rather it just had a really convincing quack.

>>47040830
This.
It was a wonderful darkly comedic satire of militaristic propaganda. Apparently verhoven got naked on set to encourage the actors in the shower scene, since it was no big deal for him but was for all the young american actors. Encourage may not be the right word though I am failing at thinking of a better one.

>>47036274
I read it a couple of years ago and liked it, the world building is great, Juan Rico is great protagonist. Heinlein can get grating/boring, though, every book is a vehicle for is then current political opinions, it seems. Had to put down The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress after 60 odd pages because of that.

>>47037897
>People small of mind tend to interpret this as "fascism," presumably because they have literally never read anything about fascism from any source.

Thank you for that. I agree.

>>47040879
Whether or not the book is positive portrayal of Fascism is up in the air, but it is *certainly* a positive portrayal of militarism. Paul Veerhoven is less than inclined to view that in a positive light due to the childhood he had RE: Nazi Germany, another militarist state.

Also for any real American it presents some uncomfortable moral questions. There are religions like Jainism and Quakers wherein joining a military service would be utterly antithetical to their religious doctrine, even if they could theoretically never be sent into anything remotely resembling a combat situation. In the world of Starship Troopers, these people don't get to vote, the most fundamental and basic power of a democracy.

So basically the world of Starship Troopers says that the State trumps Religion.

Americans are not and should not be comfortable with that - and I'm saying this as an atheist.

>>47040871
The tought police finally arrived. Yup it was a good thread.
>>47040859
So the system is obviously retarded for obvious reason you don't need to describe while your opponents are responsible for the tiniest detail of what they say.
No, man. If anyone of any ideology can vote if they fulfill a requisite then the vote is not restricted in ideological grounds. You can vote to abolish it too if you so wish. Also by your definition posing other restrictions on vote like age restriction is also fascism.

>>47037897
>People small of mind tend to interpret this as "fascism," presumably because they have literally never read anything about fascism from any source.

Speaking as someone who has done an awful lot of research into the actual Fascist Party and 1920s/30s/40s Italy, I'm gonna actually say no. The book is STRONGLY reminiscent of Fascism as originally envisioned and espoused by Mussolini and the rest of the Fascist Party.

>>47040164
That would depend on your definition of "equivalent".

BotNS is LotR retold as dying Earth SF, but it isn't the seminal and oft-imitated work that LotR is. You have to dig deep to find fantasy that isn't obviously descended from LotR. SF has more flavors, each of which has its own ultimate progenitor.

>>47040974
So We've mi ed the goal post from fascism to militarism and statism. Let's see how much more it'll be moved by when the moderators will purge the thread.

>>47041036
Speaking as someone whose grandparents lived in fascist italy, you're full of shit.

>>47040532
Some of us certainly did. It IS a conceit of the setting, and goes unspoken.

>>47040974
>So basically the world of Starship Troopers says that the State trumps Religion

State DOES Trump religion and anyone who believes otherwise is a fucking bible thumping idiot. The 'Founding Fathers' were fedora tipping humanists by in large. Jefferson wrote his own version of the bible that cut out all the shit he didn't like, it was like 20 pages long. Church and State are separate for a REASON, that is because worship is a personal matter for your private life, and should NOT affect common public policy.

>>47041058
Well, I'm also this anon, >>47041047

The issue with Fascism is that it's become by and large a meaningless word. Anyone you hate can be and often is labeled as a Fascist. It doesn't help that Fascism itself was never really codified; as well Fascism tended to be adapted in notably different ways in different nations.

José Sanjurjo and Fancisco Franco's Falangist Party, for example, was Fascist in the beginning and during the Spanish Civil War because Sanjurjo (and later Franco) needed the support of the Fascists to win. After the war, however, the true Fascists were marginalized and the whole thing became more just generally conservative.

And of course we have Nazism, which is an almost total departure from the original Fascist doctrine.

However if we look at the original statements by Benito Mussolini, Emilio de Bono, Italo Balbo, Galeazzo Ciano and other Fascist leaders, we find a doctrine that is EXTREMELY similar to what is practiced by the Federation (or whatever they were called) in Starship Troopers.

>>47041109
More to the point the state certaly trumps religion NOW. But it's not the "fascists" fault.

>>47041101
Does knowledge flow through your genetic code?

>>47041147
>The issue with Fascism is that it's become by and large a meaningless word.

I perfectly agree.
So Stop Using It.

>>47041165
No, but by God's Grace they're alive and i can call them whenever i want.

>>47041197
get them to post in this thread then

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Why is it that Heinlein threads always collapse into shitstorms of SJWs vs fedoratippers.

>>47041109
>State DOES Trump religion and anyone who believes otherwise is a fucking bible thumping idiot.

Again, I'm an atheist. And Jainists (who I mentioned) aren't even an Abrahamic faith. They're also the only people who can get away with using the swastika symbol in modern Germany, because a) it's an integral part of their religion, and b) said religion dictates that they can't even eat yogurt since that would kill the bacteria living in it and Jainism promotes the sanctity of ALL life. They won't be creating a Fourth Reich any time soon.

>Church and State are separate for a REASON

Yes, they are separate, but one isn't supposed to be able to totally shut out the other in the way you, and Starship Troopers, demands.

Again, I'm an *atheist* and I'm saying this.

>>47041218
I don't think you know what SJW means

>>47041211
Exposing WWII era grandparents to the full on BS of 4chan does not sound like a good idea.

>>47041231
Yeah, I suppose "SJW" was a bad word to use.

Still, this thread is fedora as fuck.

>>47041223
>Again, I'm an *atheist* and I'm saying this.

I guess it must be true then.

>>47040988
I have explained why the system is retarded. It defeats the purpose of having a democracy in the first place.
> If anyone of any ideology can vote if they fulfill a requisite then the vote is not restricted in ideological grounds.
If you are excluded from voting because your ideology prevents you from bearing arms, then the voting is restricted on ideological grounds.
>by your definition posing other restrictions on vote like age restriction is also fascism
Not sure if trolling or retarded, but I guess we'll know soon enough. Age restriction on voting is in place because kids don't know what they're doing, and will just vote for whatever their parents pressure them into voting. Ergo, they contribute nothing by participating the vote, and should be barred from participating in order to reduce the risk of miscount or fraud. But when you prevent, say, a scientist or a philosopher from voting, because he's a pacifist, that is discrimination on ideological grounds, and you also fuck yourself over by removing a highly qualified individual from a critically important decision-making procedure. Meanwhile, you are allowing retards, assholes and people with no ideology at all to vote just because they served in a branch of the government. A branch that serves no constructive purpose in society other than countering the influence of similar branches of foreign governments.

>>47041197
And I'm certain they're totally unbiased on the subject.

Hell, for the record, I did aforementioned research into Italian Fascism because I WANTED to put a positive spin on it. There is some good stuff in there. But it's also undeniably by its nature Statist - and undeniably by its nature very similar to Heinlein's Starship Troopers.

>"State ownership! It leads only to absurd and monstrous conclusions; state ownership means state monopoly, concentrated in the hands of one party and its adherents, and that state brings only ruin and bankruptcy to all."
>"Every anarchist is a baffled dictator."
>“It is the State which educates its citizens in civic virtue, gives them a consciousness of their mission and welds them into unity.”
>“Fascist education is moral, physical, social, and military: it aims to create a complete and harmoniously developed human, a fascist one according to our views.”
>"I do not intend to defend capitalism or capitalists. They, like everything human, have their defects. I only say their possibilities of usefulness are not ended. Capitalism has borne the monstrous burden of the war and today still has the strength to shoulder the burdens of peace. [...] It is not simply and solely an accumulation of wealth, it is an elaboration, a selection, a co-ordination of values which is the work of centuries. [...] Many think, and I myself am one of them, that capitalism is scarcely at the beginning of its story."

All of these are Mussolini quotes; none of them would be out of place in Starship Troopers.

>>47041218
Because Heinlein ultimately failed to be timeless, despite his efforts.

>>47041281
>If you are excluded from voting because your ideology prevents you from bearing arms, then the voting is restricted on ideological grounds.

You don't have to bear arms in the military, explicitely not in the military of ST.

Come to think about it, our voting system is facist too and defeats the purpose of having a democracy in the first place, because it excludes anarchists, whose ideology prevents them from giving a vote.

>>47041147
>original statements by Benito Mussolini, Emilio de Bono, Italo Balbo, Galeazzo Ciano and other Fascist leaders, we find a doctrine that is EXTREMELY similar to what is practiced by the Federation (or whatever they were called) in Starship Troopers.

I've read the same statements since they're part of the history of my country. I don't see much similarity: where Troopers is pragmatic, they're mystical ("we must study war to defend ourselves" against "we must rebuild the empire that is our birthright"); where troopers posits economic freedom, the fascists are corporatist socialist (no, the fact that some people call them soviets and others call them corporations doesn't mean they're not both state controlled syndacates with a strong ideological police), where in troopers you have individualism and personal initiative, in italian fascism you have huge public works, welfare and idolatry of the leader (Who was president of the federation in starship troopers again? I tought so).
So no, the sistems might be superficially similar but they're different in every way that matters.

>>47041322
Not really. Voluntary deprivation is still in the realm of democracy

>>47041281
Yet the are non-military branches of state service to join in the story. Theory are just mentioned in passing due to not being the focus.

>>47041322
Still not sure if retarded or troll, but I think I'll bet on retarded. Enjoy the circus. I'm out.

>>47041322
>You don't have to bear arms in the military, explicitely not in the military of ST.

Within the book itself it's stated that no matter what the military HAS to find you a job; not once is it suggested that you get any say in what that job is. Once you're in the military you go where you are assigned, anything else is insubordination.

It was only after the book was published and people started pointing out the flaws in this system RE: necessarily ideologically restrictiveness that Heinlein backtracked and claimed that the military of Starship Troopers was more like a general civil service rather than strictly a military devoted to military matters.

>whose ideology prevents them from giving a vote.

No, it doesn't. You don't understand anarchy. I mean, *I* don't understand anarchy, either, or rather I don't understand why anyone would want to be an anarchist. But even I know that the ideological tenets of anarchsim do not prevent you from voting.

Indeed most of the (saner) anarchist movements are all about reforming governments from the inside rather than tearing them down from the outside.

>>47041396
>But even I know that the ideological tenets of anarchsim do not prevent you from voting.

A bunch of anarchists won't agree. A guy from the 19th century who tried to assasinate the president said exactly that and if you don't believe me at least admit the fact that this mindset is within the realm of possibilities.

Apart from that it was possible to get a desk job within the military if you desired to do so iirc.

>>47041441
>A guy from the 19th century who tried to assasinate the president said exactly that

Gonna need a source, because if it's the guy I'm thinking of, then you're wildly misunderstanding him. And also I think it was the early 20th century.

Might be a different guy. Again, I'll need a source.

>>47041300
>>"State ownership! It leads only to absurd and monstrous conclusions; state ownership means state monopoly, concentrated in the hands of one party and its adherents, and that state brings only ruin and bankruptcy to all."
Those are pretty ballsy words to say for someone whose party controlled the whole country's economy through ideologically controlled
>>47041281
>>age restriction on votes is because babbys don't contribute
And to the people of the federation, in the same way, people that didn't work for their right to vote don't Actually contribute to society in a way that should be awarded a vote. Incredibile right?
Also you insist talking like Actually fighting was a sine qua non in the military of the federation. This is not so and it was allready pointed out: the federation HAS to give you something to do, that might be sending you with the infantry or sending you to test shit on pluto or sending you to the K9 units.
You can easily get the right to vote without firing a single shot. The limitations in voting in the federation aren't ideological they're pratical. Anyone that's not illiterate agrees with this.

>>47041396
>Once you're in the military you go where you are assigned, anything else is insubordination.
There's a whole scene in wich Rico talks with a recruitment officer about where he should be sent.

>>47041300
>And I'm certain they're totally unbiased on the subject.
You can troll me all you want, but please don't imply anything about my granparents.

>>47041626
I'm not saying their pro-Fascist or anti-Fascist. I'm saying that, having grown up in Italy, it is literally impossible for them to be unbiased one way or the other.

You can't be objective about things that personally happened to you or around you.

>>47040630
Akira Kurosawa actually, Star Wars is practically a sci-fi version of The Hidden Fortress.

>>47041223
>Yes, they are separate, but one isn't supposed to be able to totally shut out the other in the way you, and Starship Troopers, demands.

I'd give you this point but
1) you don't Actually have to shoot anybody to get citizenship: any jainist that wants to vote can still ask to be sent litteraly anywhere but with the starship trooper since "military service" in universe can mean many things and it's implied you get some leeway on when you end up serving.
2) you're part of the same group that still wants the Sisters of the Poor to perform abortions and hand out condoms because Obama says so, or a couple of Christian bakers to prepare a gay wedding cake because such is the a Will of the State so your defending religious rights NOW is borderline self parody.

>>47038306
Dune was one of the first works to present a pseudo-feudal space empire, like in Star Wars or 40k

It also inspired the sci-fi/fantasy blend in those two and all others inspired by them among others, though Dune is more subtle about its fantasy elements to the point they could be interpreted as extremely soft sci-fi

>>47040974
You have yet to make a valid argument for democracy. You're saying no matter what democracy is a good thing and anything that goes against democracy is a bad thing, which you need to prove.

Secondly "any real American" would be against democracy for all. Real Americans as in those who founded the nation were happy to exclude people under 21 (while drafting younger), women and negros. So a "real American" would disagree with your idea of mass democracy.

Balls in your court junior. Show me what your marxist teachers told you was REAL AMERICA and I'll show you that real America is racist, sexist and don't give no fuck about your petty little mass democracy.

>>47040801
it still does in the prelude.

>>47041738
I'd agree. But every time i try to give my perspective on something political that happened in another country (recent lulzy example: the trumpening) people allways tell me i should "choke on a panini" (sic) because i can't understand the intricacies of the situation if i don't live there where they're happening.
So wich is wich?

>>47038215
I never really got calling "A Brave New World" a dystopia. Slightly more honest about the social engineering that is done anyway I guess? Generally, everyone was happy and had things. The government was coherent, and was working towards some greater goals. There was still experimentation and advances taking place. Hell, they even had a good way for dealing with malcontents. "What to write poetry all day? Here, go live with other poets and write poetry. Some people will read it at some point." Social mores had gotten weird, but those always change and get weird over time.

>>47036274
Man... I really like this book. Makes me annoyed at most modern SPESS MARINES. Troopers were fast, heavily armed, and intelligently deployed. Now it is all about slow, armored marines being thrown around willy nilly. In 40K crisis suits are closer to MI then marines.

>>47041956
Are you serious? It's worse than 1984! You get to live as a litteral pet of the elite, any and every profound tought you might entertain smothered under useless costly commodities...
Oh Holy Mother of God.
It's our world isn't it.

>>47041517
*ideologically controlled sindacates

>>47041896
See the bit about people being involved being biased? That. It seems like there would be no way for an outside observer to understand... but that is almost always wrong.

>>47041109
Religious institutions are still tax-free.

>>47042063
Actually, the elite see your profound thoughts. Hell, if they are profound enough they might cause actual change to the system. Probably not, as most such thoughts aren't actually that profound.

>>47041990
I guess? I think it's because modern writers aren't as good as Heinlein was (and maybe didn't have military experience themselves.) Flavor-wise, spess mehreens ought to do the same thing you describe.


Moon is a Harsh Mistress > Starship Troopers > Stranger in a Strange Land

>>47041767
Rico going into the MI was seen as a rare thing by his recruiter. Much like in the modern military, the majority of people doing service are doing logistics and such.

>>47041896
Despite what people think living somewhere doesn't give you any special insight into a nations politics. It's like thinking that having a job gives you some special understanding of the global economy.

>>47042185
Or at least, any of the dozens of other roles than 'MI'.

>>47041956
>working towards some greater goals
>In a world where the entire aim of the world state is unchanging stability
>where machines could reduce the working day to a few hours, but won't because that would give people time to think
>where people are produced like factory components and conditioned not to desire advancement in any way, and only consume.
>where soma exists to keep people in a state of unthinking euphoria
>not a dystopia
>hedonist pls go

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>>47041956
Anon, Anon - even if you're part of the elite of that society, you WILL BE FORCED TO FUCK FATTIES.

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>>47036274
>I just finished Starship Troopers and am still in full-retard mode over it

>>47039290
The Forever War offers a very nice contrast to Starship Troopers.

>>47037940
Jimmy... Is that you?

>>47042086
>>47042195
Ok. So wich is wich?
>>47042185
Exactly, and would a Jainist or a hippie be opposed to work in military logistics?
>>47042133
I still would like to have them tho!

Heinlein was a ridiculously sheltered baby who jerked off to the memory of the only time in his life he'd felt like he belonged to something bigger than himself and called it Starship Troopers

Much like how Stranger in a Strange Land is him jerking off about how much he hates religion and Moon is a Harsh Mistress is him jerking off about how much he hates every non-military part of the government.

I give Asimov shit but at least he occasionally wrote something that wasn't an author tract.

>>47043603
Oh! A telepath offering is unfailing knowledge of the hearts of men in lieu of fallible analisys! This thread is truly over!

Sci-fi is too varied to have a single Tolkien, different writers and genres will all have different touchstones. He's definitely the Tolkien of a specific flavor of military sci-fi that resonates with /tg/ grognards for some reason, though.

>>47043667
Literally the plot of Stranger in a Strange Land

>>47043681
True dat. walked right into it. Well done.

>>47043603
>I give Asimov shit but at least he occasionally wrote something that wasn't an author tract.

Well yeah, he occasionally wrote popular science texts.

>>47036516
THUNDERCHILD always holds.

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>>47038857
No, they didn't.

Star Wars ripped of Flash Gordon's setting and updated the visuals.

>>47040597
I thought he kidnapped the little girl, not raped

its been a while, and it may have been something I didn't pick up in high school

>>47040273
>anymore than writing about Arrakis meant Frank Herbert was a sandworm.

sides approaching escape velocity

>>47041036
>A representative democracy with no leadership figure is reminiscent of fascism
Maybe it resembles what those mooks thought Fascism was supposed to be, sort of, but it doesn't resemble the actual phenomenon at all. The fact that it's a society with complete gender and racial equality is also a strong point against that.

>>47048905
>The fact that it's a society with complete gender and racial equality is also a strong point against that.

This and fascism isn't mutually exclusive. I think you're mixing up fascism with "things I don't like." You can have a terrifying nightmare-state that treats everyone the same way: terribly.

>>47049155
>terrifying nightmare-state
But it isn't.
Unless you consider personal responsibility a terrifying nightmare.

>>47049227
>Unless you consider personal responsibility a terrifying nightmare.
A guy very nearly just won the Democratic primaries on the platform that personal responsibility is too hard.

>>47048021
Wasn't really specified IIRC. Rape is a fairly reasonable assumption.

>>47043593
The logistics included doing shit like "the various non-combatant auxiliary corps ... experimental animal or sent me as a laborer in the Terranizing of Venus..." page 22.
The system would probably view either as a mental disability and just have you do some public works project or something.

>>47042332

Yes the general population is shown a vision of unchanging stability. But... if they wanted that the two non-conformists would just be shot. Hell, if they wanted that they would only produce retards. Tech is advancing slowly, and stuff is shuffling around. The general population is conditioned to enjoy just grinding... because they are needed to do their jobs without fuss, and generally don't really help if they did feel like advancing. The elites are working on future plans, and the societal machine is letting them do so without distraction.

>>47038295
>Name me one dystopian element of Starship Troopers

Citizenship is not automatic. If I remember correctly, the only way the main character was going to ever get the right to vote was to join the military. That there's dystopian.

>>47041833
>You have yet to make a valid argument for democracy.

Because every other system that hasn't been democratic has been a real shit-storm for most of the people in the nation?

>Secondly "any real American" would be against democracy for all.

oh. Ok. You're crazy.

>bu bu but blacks and women couldn't vote in 1780!

At the time, voting was really just for land-owning rich guys. But the ideals of democracy are broader than that. Most of the founding father ALSO weren't huge fans of slavery, but for the sake of keeping the southern states on their side, compromises were made. Likwise, women couldn't vote. That wouldn't have been practical with the culture they inherited.

Get with the times you racist fuck.

>>47040974
Thats literally a founding principle of the US

>>47049457
The novel makes a point of showing that your quality of life is not affected whatsoever if you aren't a "citizen." The protagonist's wealthy parents strongly dissuade him from military service.

>>47040974
>So basically the world of Starship Troopers says that the State trumps Religion.
>Americans are not and should not be comfortable with that - and I'm saying this as an atheist.

>>47049733
>>>47040974
>Thats literally a founding principle of the US

No, _separation_ of Church and State is a foudning principle. They argued you should not be forced to pay for, convert to, or otherwise support a religion selected by the state, the way ALL OF EUROPE did. They did this mostly because the so-called "era of religious wars" -- when the conversion of a prince implied the conversion of all his subjects -- was about as fresh in their memory as the U.S. Civil War is today.

>>47049940
I can go to any number of fetish websites and find a hack novel talking about incestuous rape doesn't do any real harm to children. That would be a statement of fact about a fictional world completely divorced from reality, based only on the author's warped outlook. So too would this statement:
>The novel makes a point of showing that your quality of life is not affected whatsoever if you aren't a "citizen."

Meanwhile, on factual Earth, you can argue that the human race could get along fine under even the most brutal fascist regime. And you'd be right. There are more brutal regimes in history than just ones. That's just not a world any of (except Heinlein) would call an improvement.

>>47040273
>anymore than writing about Arrakis meant Frank Herbert was a sandworm.
I mean have you seen Herbert and a sandworm in the same room?

>>47050014
You sound unhinged. Whether a story is dystopian or not depends on how its society is portrayed. Starship Troopers clearly does not portray its society as dystopian. So it isn't.

Whether you rage about the values presented in its society or not, Starship Troopers is not a dystopian work.

>>47050128
I'm not the same guy. I'm a second guy who thinks you're crazy.

I wouldn't normally mention the "crazy" part -- it's impolite and everyone can tell without it being pointed out. No, I'm just the guy who jumps in to say that your arguments are shit: glib, uncritical of the author's flaws, and based on a just-deep-enough-to-be-wrong understanding of American history.

>>47041823
That was Foundation actually senpai.

>>47050128
>Whether you rage about the values presented in its society or not, Starship Troopers is not a dystopian work.
By that logic "A Brave New World" cannot be dystopian, by definition. That's a pretty good indicator your personal definition is flawed.

>>47041823
Dune also leaned on a (at the time, less hackneyed) theme about terran cultures gradually synthesizing into a new culture. The way greek, arabic, and germanic ideas firmed into what we think of as Western culture, Herbert infuses more Hebrew, Shiite, and eastern influences.

You can see similar effects in works like Lupoff's "the discovery of the ghooric zone"

>>47038789
>This cover
actual why

>>47038841
> rotten interstellar empire with ban on technology has its roots in dune
That's a funny way to spell Foundation

>>47050216
As the anon that genuinely likes ABNW as a piece of utopian fiction, I agree. The setting is not portrayed as dystopian. You can disagree with the values portrayed, but you can't say it is a dystopian work. Much like the indian kid, you can see that the society does not fit your personal morals. You can't say that it is meant to be a critique of people who oppose your morals.

>>47040109
...I mean, Athens didn't really devolve into that, but the country you were referring to, Rome did. Hail Ceaser, we empire now.

>>47049940
>>47050128

>Whether a story is dystopian or not depends on how its society is portrayed. ... Starship Troopers is not a dystopian work.

oooooooh, since Heinlein didn't think militarism would be all that bad then it's not a book dystopian in nature despite portraying dystopian tropes.

ok. Misunderstandings happen.

>>47049457
You can argue that's a bad thing but it's nowhere near dystopian.

>>47049965
>seperation of state and church

I think you misread my comment. When I said founding principle I was talking about that.

>>47050683
Rome was never really a democracy though. We say Republic but it was still dominated by the nobility and was more like an Oligarchy.

>>47051213
Hmm? limiting all government power to the military?

Because that's what it is. You don't get to vote unless you enlist in the military which specifically goes out of it's way to brainwash/"culturally align" it's members. Honestly, college does the same thing.

And since there is only one government, it's ALL power. They have a complete monopoly on violence and they only allow everyone else to exist out of... what? The goodness of their hearts? literally antithetical to their purpose. They're military. They're warriors.

>>47051356
For it's time the Roman republic was hella democratic. Hell, even slaves had rights.

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I love Heinlein and Starship Troopers. The book is a quick read, there's really no reason NOT to read it.

As a former infantryman myself, I found Heinlein's authenticity and subject matter expertise (he was Naval Academy grad), very comfy, and allowed him to tell a good tale.

I love the theme of self sacrifice for the larger good. It's a radical departure from today's self entitlement and narcissism.

>>47041316
Elaborate? His stuff is usually pretty good coming of age material.

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>>47036274
>It's the science fiction equivalent to LotR.
Nah, that would be the Lensman series. It was earlier, and established a lot more of the tropes that are ubiquitous in popular sci-fi.

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>>47038804
Jetpacks in fiction go back a lot further than Starship Troopers. So do psychics, giant insects, and planet destroying super-weapons for that matter.

>>47036274

I'm re-reading it right now.

>>47041767
>1) you don't Actually have to shoot anybody to get citizenship: any jainist that wants to vote can still ask to be sent litteraly anywhere but with the starship trooper since "military service" in universe can mean many things and it's implied you get some leeway on when you end up serving.
Nah, the Jains are fucked: We know from the sergeant that anyone surplus to that year's actual military intake is straight-up murdered or tortured until they quit. We know from the policeman that the only "positive" quality the enfranchised have is a tendency to vote to perpetuate the system. Their religion is going to make them harder to brainwash so they'll just get tossed in the discard pile from the start unless it's a slow year or a higher-up feels like amusing himself.

>>47040589
>It would be no more profound that requiring you to work as a cop or a postman in order to be allowed to vote.
Which is how MOST gain their citizenship in the Federation, Rico was just best suited for the MI.

>>47040644
>you two are correct and I apologize. I should rather say that the problem with people who EULOGIZE Heinlein's vision in Starship Troopers as an ideal eutopia for humanity gloss over the fact that soldiers are not inherently good people.
Oh agreed, but their trying to rationalize their desire to be a badass killing machine.

>>47049264
No, she* won, beating out the person who preached that everyone should contribute their fair share to society and then have those funds applied in a way that applies a maximum benefit to everyone.

>>47050215
Foundation wasn't feudal AFAIK. It had an empire but not one like Dune's or Warhammer's.

>>47047655
Star Wars' primary influence is adventure serials, including that one (though not the awesome 1980 movie, which is the other way around). This isn't arcane knowledge. There's even a character in the prequels called Commander Cody.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Lucas never read Dune, Starship Troopers, or any other book.

>>47061551
Frank Herbert joked about making a club for people who'd been ripped off by George Lucas. If anything, he believed he had.

>>47061658
If there's stuff in the movies that indicates large scale rip offs, I'd read it over. I'm not playing Lucas Defense Force here, I honestly think he's something of a hack, who's body of work shows that Star Wars being good was something of a fluke.

Its just pretty obvious what Lucas was actually going for. And its certainly more Flash Gordon than Dune.

>>47061658
I don't see it honestly. They both have a galactic empire, people with mental powers, and a prominent dessert planet. That's about the extent of the similarities. Even those points of similarity are actually quite different from each other. Like one empire being feudal and the other fascist.

>>47041316
>triggers this many people from across the political spectrum
>'failed to be timeless'
Oh, I'd say those shots still echo around the world, anon.

>>47062097
Heh, dessert planet.

>>47038804
...

Pretty sure there were no psychic powers in the book.

This is a dumb thread

>>47049457
It's not just the military. There's civil service too, you don't have to fight Bugs to become a citizen, you can fix bridges or paint starships instead.

Starship Troopers is one of my favorite books of all time, but a lot of the stuff in it isn't exactly new to it.

Think of it like a Glock: there's almost no new ideas in it, but it was the first thing to combine and popularize the ideas. Almost nobody has read Armor, but most people will trace the concept of power armor back to SST.

>>47036274
>All settings, from WH40k to Gundam, derive from this in some way.
Fading suns?

>>47063384
There was one dude who was able to map out tunnels with his mind IIRC.

>>47052074
>What is the Lawful Bearer of Arms
I'd take warriors over passive aggressive snots like you any day.

>>47037897
>People small of mind tend to interpret this as "fascism," presumably because they have literally never read anything about fascism from any source.

...are you retarded?

>>47055499
Not really, citizenship is a grueling process that if you're vastly unlucky or totally incompetent will kill you. You don't actually have too much to worry about unless you're pants-on-head retarded or under the direct command of someone who is. Citizenship is designed to be earned at great personal expense. The whole point is to instill a sense of nobility to the sacrifice.

>>47049457
>If I remember correctly, the only way the main character was going to ever get the right to vote was to join the military
actually it's if you perform any Civil Service, not just Military, heck they mention that they'll find a role for anyone who applies, even if they're completely incompetent

>>47066189
>Armor
Ah, what a fun little romp. Got suddenly REALLY melodramatic at the end.

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>>47037897
The Night Land actually got a really good rewrite a while ago that makes it more readable by modern standards;

http://www.amazon.com/Night-Land-Story-Retold/dp/0615508812/

>>47063384
The "Special Talent" who provides Rico with a map of underground tunnels on Planet P.

>>47043603
Heinlein's adventure serials are what you want. They were just written to entertain. Check out Space Cadet, which is sort of a spiritual predecessor to Starship Troopers, or The Rolling Stones, which has nothing to do with the band.

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>>47036274
>Not posting the best cover

40k is more inspired by Dune than anything t b h

>>47049457
Not even close

>>47049457
It was civil service, mang. You could serve in their equivalent of a government-run Peace Corps and still qualify for citizenship. You could work at the goddamned DMV equivalent and qualify.

>>47036274
I'd say so.

I enjoyed it.

>>47041833
I can not say what the america of tomorrow will be, but it sure as shit isn't yours.
you 'real america' is dead, dying, or about to need metric fuckloads of medical assistance to keep on going. the old generations are falling into dust, Anon. One way or the other, the America you think is 'real' is churning away into the night, naught but it's scraps or twisted ideals rebound into the mind of youths will survive.

>>47070737
More like Nemesis the Warlock than anything else.

>>47071145
Trump's popularity says otherwise.

See, Progressives live their whole lives in an echo chamber, because they're terrified of ideas they don't agree with. They control the media and the universities, and repeat their own lies back to themselves over and over again until they're completely divorced from reality. You can't see the forest for the trees.

>>47071427
>Progressives live their whole lives in an echo chamber, because they're terrified of ideas they don't agree with
You appear to be describing conservatism.

This is a Heinlein thread, so
>settings that portray space as a wild west kind of place full of freedom and rebellion
A space colony would be the most nightmarish setting imaginable. Imagine the early American colonies--EARLY colonies, not the 18th century kind-- but turned to 11. Imagine a society that lacks the very concept of privacy not out of religion or anything, but because of need. Where every resource has to be carefully monitored, not just European luxuries but the air itself. Where you can't just go out and ask the locals for help, or adopt a quiet life of beaver hunting by yourself in the wilderness. A cross between a nuclear submarine and a bee hive.

I know the Moon is a Harsh Mistress is really influential and all that, but goddamn it is so far removed from what we can reasonably expect a space colony to be like. If anyone is better at understanding life support systems (I am not an engineer) feel free to chime in.

>>47071502
Conservatives are equally bad.

You appear unable to look at the world as anything but black and white.

>>47071538
That assumes terraforming can't or won't be a thing. Or that there aren't earthlike planets out there (which there are, literally thousands of them).

>>47071502
He's actually describing both. I know conservatives and progressives, and both groups tend to surround themselves by like-minded peoples who cannot handle having their ideas directly challenged in any way.

As someone who likes to think of himself as a progressive, this really bothers me. I keep interacting with both because I want to be able to explain myself and my ideals in a situation where I'm being challenged, but neither group can really be talked to any more in regards to opposing views.

Both sides demonize the other to the degree where honest-to-God compromise is not necessarily possible. It's an America of extremes. We can only hope that at some point soon this pendulum of action/reaction from extreme to extreme begins to tone down to some middle point of understanding.

The two-party system, especially when combined with such blatant commercialism of damn-near everything, has destroyed the potential of the platonic America. It's dead as shit from both perspectives, and all we can do now is prevent the worst while things normalize.

>>47071563
I should have been clearer--I'm ranting about the amount of scifi that apes the later stages of the colonization of the Americas, and how little copies the early attempts that are more relevant to our gazing into space today.

>>47049457
On top of every point in every reply, there is also the argument that citizenship and all the restrictions that come with it are not as desirable as true freedom.

>>47071604
You sound like a Liberal. I'm the same. The Progressives are not your friend any more than the Conservatives are.

>>47036274
>All [Military fetish porn] settings, from WH40k to Gundam, derive from this in some way.

If you're looking for a singular work that defined science-fiction in the same way that LoTR defined fantasy, you won't find one, though >>47037681 comes MUCH closer than starship troopers. Honestly, I think it's to Sci-Fi's credit that it's not defined by a single author's style.

Oh dear various gods, why. After all the education done about this book on every board what has happened?

For fuck's sake, we have been OVER this!

The book does not portray fascism at all. Fascism is not 'anything I am told to disagree with' so knock that off. Fascism is a very specific type of government and The Federation portrayed in Starship Troopers is THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF FASCISM IN EVERY DETAIL WE ARE SHOWN!

Everyone please, we have been over this, how are we back at square one!? Or this what trolling has become now?

>>47040045
>>47040273
All of his books, that put the heroes under the flag of wildly different and not at all reconcilable ideals, all actually do have the exact same message.

That message is merely responsibility. Just be responsible and act responsibly. There are a million right ways to do things, pick one and get it done. Just be responsible.

>>47071651
Not that guy. What's the difference between Liberals and Progressives? Aren't they just different words for the same things?

>>47071651
Oh fuck. Trust me, I know. It bugs the shit out of me as much as I'm sure it bugs the fuck out of anyone who sees a party that holds a great deal of their ideals fracturing itself over the pissiest of things.

>>47071725
Like all political words, it means whatever you want it to, so effectively nothing. The word Liberal in particular is mangled beyond recognition.

>>47041956
>>47050616
'Dystopian' can actually be broken down into two categories. Sure, you've got your standard 'dystopias' where everything is ruined forever, like 1984, WH40k, and the future timeline from Back to the Future 2. However, there's also 'anti-utopias' where society seems perfect on a superficial level and the real nasty shit is hidden below the surface, usually covered up by a bunch of hedonistic distractions. That's what A Brave New World falls under, along with stuff like Logan's Run and Fahrenheit 451.

>>47072137
Whoops, meant alternate present timeline in Back to the Future.

>>47037768
>What Starship Troopers is the granddaddy of is space marines in power armor jumping out of starships

Good god man, read some fucking E.E. Doc Smith, he was doing that shit in the 40s.

>>47071725
Liberals believe in principles and liberty first and foremost, and that the duty of Government is to protect those liberties, equally, for all people under the law. And that that extends to people you disagree with. Liberals derive their issues and policy from those principles.

Progressives, on the other hand, have a set of left wing policies they want put in place, and derive their principles from those policies. Or, rather to justify those policies.

Essentially it's a question of whether the ends justify the means.

>>47046021
Occasionally? He wrote far more non-fic than fiction. The science column in MoF&SF was monthly for decades.

>>47052321
Right. Those parts appear timeless to us old farts, but would they resonate with those just finding SF now?

>>47041751
What, you don't see the similarities between Star Wars and Dragon Ball?

>>47050443
None of the space kingdoms that have arised after Trantor fell outright banned technology, though.

Speaking of tech, since we pinned the not-Fascist thing, can someone tell me why the Federation wanted so hard to shit over scientists while progressing on the backs of mathematicians and the tech they produced for the power armors? The bits where Rico's teacher raves about how "scientists governing the Earth made it a shithole" really stuck out. It's the part that bothered me the most on the whole book.

>>47071725
"Liberals" are liberal by American standards, but would likely be considered moderate conservatives in Europe. Progressives are Liberal by European standards.

>>47074697
Yeah, well the yuropoors are so far left they're only a few steps shy of Marx.

>>47040045
It's a pulp scifi book written by an American in 50s. It's also a terribly boring book about a pinoy training like a mule and getting "meritocratically" beaten in rank by his aging dad who just joined the army in a midlife crisis and doing jack all of importance.

>>47040830
He did right. Starship Troopers is a terrible book, the fact that is "seminal" tells a lot about the quality of pop culture and science fiction in general.

>>47074896
How's that fedora collection going there, my ever-so sophisticated friend?

>>47074866
>getting "meritocratically" beaten in rank by his aging dad
Please explain how a platoon sergeant outranks a Lieutenant.

>>47075097
Higher than your book collection, I suppose.

>>47069032
Oh, they'll find a role for you. But they'll never give you citizenship. The recruiter laughs about it to Rico. If you're enamoured of the concept of earning one's citizenship that's fine, just don't pretend that the society presented in the book is anything other than the muh honour muh duty wank fantasy of a crotchety ex army welfare queen.

>>47071680
Screaming and throwing a tantrum won't make it true, dear.

>>47076670
But he is right, anybody who calls Starship Troopers fascist either did not read it, does not know what fascism is or is pushing a political agenda.

>welfare queen
>honour and duty are bad

Are you trolling or are you so delusional you actually believe this?

>>47076720
fascism
ˈfaʃJz(ə)m/
noun
noun: fascism

an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
synonyms: authoritarianism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, despotism, autocracy, absolute rule, Nazism, rightism, militarism; More
nationalism, xenophobia, racism, anti-Semitism, chauvinism, jingoism, isolationism;
neo-fascism, neo-Nazism;
corporativism, corporatism;
historicalHitlerism;
historicalFrancoism, Falangism
antonyms: democracy, liberalism
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices.

How in the honey fuck nuggets is it not fascist, let alone "the exact opposite"? What kind of speshul snowflake definition are you using?

Honour and duty are good. Claiming that the military automatically gives you both - or is the only source of either - is retarded. Or trolling.

>>47076882
Nobody claimed that including the author of the god damn book.

And using an inaccurate definition of fascism does not make you right, it has a specific meaning beyond 'right wing authoritarianism'. Especially since many of its ideas are more left wing than right.

>>47057915
>success should be punished and those funds applied in a way that applies a maximum benefit to those too lazy to partake in personal responsibility

ftfy

>>47041223
Jainists must not know much about yogurt if they won't eat yogurt for that reason.

In fact how do they breathe?
Or have intercourse?

Some religions are just plain dumb