A lot of people always say that D&D is shit and that there

*Fantasy Craft*, Dungeon World, 13th Age, GURPS Dungeon Fantasy.

>>46810713
Reign, Warhammer fantasy, riddle of Steel, burning wheel, mouse guard.

Savage Worlds is good if you want game to feel less ruley/gamey and more narrative. It's also extremely simple system that's easy to learn.

GURPS would be good choice if you want something less heroic and more "realistic" because it's simulation type of a system.

>>46810693
>that don't feel like a video game
Care to elaborate on what you mean by that?

>>46810693
The Witcher RPG is actually quite bitchin'. Remember a Polish dude who run it for us some time before the guys working on the fan translation started doing their thing.

>>46810940
As much as I love Savage Worlds OP may get butthurt because "HURR IT'S A MINIS GAEM THAT PRETENDS TO BE AN RPG".
Even though it grew from a wargame, the same as Chainmail, and for modern tactical combat without autism there's none finer.

>>46810693
The dark eye is a very nice generic.fantasy rpg.

>>46810809
Tavern Tales, Symbaroum, Song of Swords, Torchbearer, The One Ring, Dominion Rules.

>>46810964
You can play perfectly well without minis and grid. They're more like optional thing, but of course having them makes combat more simple although slower.

>>46810693
Like builds and theorycrafting shit? Fantasy craft

Like character focus and narrative shit? Burning Wheel

Like models and exploding dice shit? Savege Worlds

Make sure to let us know what game you like in the thread so we can tell you how terrible your taste is.

>>46810693
The Dark Eye = Low European fantasy, medium to complex and typically overlooked by American gamers.

Savage Worlds Fantasy Settings = Good amount of flexibility (as you can always combine it with other general supplements), easy to balance but normally lacking in specific bestiary and campaign books.

^ These two are probably going to be your best bets. Otherwise it's Pathfinder with house rulings on splatbooks.

>>46811037
I know. It's just the fact it uses template-based weapons (even if you can abstract them with dice as in the Deluxe corebook) might be a turnoff to some.

I love a map grid fight far too much to really bother with abstracting things like that, but hey, if it works go for it

>>46810946

Large HP pools. Builds straight out of video games. Skills used once per day/rest.

>>46810964

SW is generally an okay system but I don't like many things about it. Like exploding dice that are more explody the worse die you use.

>>46811207
if you want something more real try GURPS with harsh realism rules

>>46811207
>Skills used once per day/rest.
So you don't want to play a tabletop rpg then?
Hmmm...
I think what you actually might be looking for is D&D 4Ed. Wizard's attempt at a pen and paper MMORPG.

>>46811219
Yeah, exploding dice is pretty dumb, but it's easy to tone down without changing system much. I personally prefer to have house rule that dice can only explode once to prevent absurd scenarios that can be far too game breaking.

>>46811226
Name me one skill that you have that you can use once a day. Running doesn't count because people who aren't fat shits can do it whenever.

>>46811226
That would be the exact opposite of what he wants, 4e IS a videogame. And I love it for it.

>>46811295
Not him, but I don't think that guy is saying that once per day skills are realistic, they're saying that pretty much every TTRPG has once per day skills.

>>46811226

Is this really how dumb D&D only players are?

>>46811322
>they're saying that pretty much every TTRPG has once per day skills

Utterly wrong.

>>46811295
- catch the right bus to work
- appropriately say "good morning" to any given person
- claim a log-in bonus
- drink my morning coffee
- take a dump

>>46811219
I don't mind it, in fact I like it a lot. It models beginner's luck pretty amusingly, and in the long run they still have a piss-poor chance of doing anything at all, wild die or not.
Plus when it comes to damage it encourages players to not be retards in combat. Everything can kill you, so watch your ass.

Also: bennies.

>>46811295
The whole point in limiting the special powers (not skills like climbing, swimming or crafting etc) is to A. Present the player with a challenging choice (do I use it now or later) in the same way other games use MP or spell components and B. To restrict the players from using they're special skills constantly therefore drastically reducing the difficulty of the game.

>>46811313
Exactly my point.
There's no limit to the character's special powers in 4Ed you always have some that you can use at any given time.

>>46811330
I don't think you're smart enough to understand my point there, champ.

>>46811337
I never said that they were right, but they weren't saying that real life has 1/day skills either.

>>46811356
Their*

>>46811356

It's still a stupid video game mechanic.

Remember Aragorn using his once per rest powers? Or Conan?

This only works if nobody takes the game seriously. It's something for board games and dungeon crawlers, not real RPG games.

>>46811379
>I never played a real RPG game the post

Tip, D&D isn't one.

>>46811430
>It's something for board games and dungeon crawlers, not real RPG games.
Game.
It's a game.
You can't do your special moves all the time because it's a fucking Roleplaying GAME.
I'm out.

>>46811430
It's called "abstraction".
It's a rather abstract thing.

>>46811439
>Roleplaying Game game.

>>46811446

Anon, for most people fantasy is something like LoTR or GoT. And characters in those series don't have special moves they can use once per day.

>>46811465
They do. You just don't have the rulebook, so you can't tell.

>>46811451
>I have no argument so I'll point out meaningless shit

The vast majority of RPG systems don't have once per day skills or powers. D&D only started giving them to non casters with 4e. Many systems don't even use HP.

What are you even arguing about?

>>46811499
>once per day skills or powers...
>D&D only started giving them to non casters with 4e.
Lol what?

>>46811563

It was a 4e thing to give non casters those stupid once/rest powers to balance them with wizards.

>>46811585

Yeah, 4e invented barbarians and rogues.

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>>46811219
>Like exploding dice that are more explody the worse die you use.
A higher die will always yield a higher average, even when explodability is taken into account. With that said, there is exactly one number on which it is better to roll the next lower die: the maximum number the first die can roll. So an exploding d6 has a lower chance of beating a target number of 6 than an exploding d4 has. An exploding d8 has a lower chance to beat 8 than an exploding d6 has. Etc.

But you're not normally rolling against target numbers that high, and the difference is minor anyway (the biggest gap is between the d6 and d4 vs. 6, with 16.7% and 18.8% respective probabilities). The only reason that this gap exists, however, is that exploding dice skip over the maximum roll of the first die. That is to say: it's impossible for an exploding d6 to roll a 6 (because if you roll a 6, you then add another die roll to that). If you wanted to fix that problem, then you'd lower the maximum result by 1 and add another die roll. So a roll of 6 on a d6 would yield 5 + another d6 roll (and if you rolled another 6, that would bring you up to 10 + another d6 roll).

Alternately, if you're okay with dice only exploding one time, then you could do things the normal way (a roll of 6 on a d6 = 6 + another d6 roll), only rolling max on the second roll would "break the bank" indicating a 0 on that roll (so on a d6, a roll of 6 and 6 would really be 6 + 0 = 6).

Or you could just decide that the issue is minor and leave things the way they are.

>>46810693
The way she is holding her arrow upsets me

>>46811591

Math like that only works over thousands of rolls.

In a game with limited number of rolls completely ridiculous shit tends to happen.

>>46811590

You mean the worst classes nobody gave a shit about in earlier editions?

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>>46811692

Nothing about an RPG requires once per day powers, its a stupid videogamey thing that most RPG's lack.

And if they are present they are usually explicitly supernatural, not applied to normal skills which is never justifiable.

>>46811692
moving the goalposts ridiculously hard

>>46811207
Don't play 4e.

>>46811439
>D&D isn't one
I'm sorry you've had shit DMs.

>>46811809
It is a narrativist patch for a system fault. I agree that it could have been handled better - everything in every edition of d&d ever published could have been handled better - but the only people who I've known to honestly have an issue with dailies for martials are the autism monsters I don't accept into my games in the first place.

>>46811809
>that most RPG's lack.
I'm not sure what games you've been playing. Perhaps FATE or Fiasco.

>>46810693
>or a minis game that pretends to be RPG.

..and yet you're playing D&D?

My irony-scouter just fucking exploded, thank you.

>>46811809
>Wanting "normal" powers in a fantasy setting.

>>46811682
Math like that works for every single roll, you just can't accurately quantify the probabilities without a suitably large sample size. But your chance to roll a 5 *is* higher on an exploding d6 than an exploding d4 in much the same way the mean result of a (non-exploding) d6 *is* higher than the mean result of a (non-exploding) d4. It's really not open to debate. Now, you may certainly have an emotional reaction to the way the dice work, and feel that you'd rather roll an exploding d4 than an exploding d6 vs. a target number of 5, but that doesn't change the actual probabilities in play. Math doesn't care about your feelings.

>>46811857
>autism monsters

Actually giving a damn about immersion does not make you autistic, something that shits all over the feeling of it being a real world is not 'narrativist'. Its a gameist concept that makes no real sense when applied to mundane abilities.

>>46811864
Name RPG's other than DnD or DnD clones that limit uses of normal skills or abilities to once per day.

>>46811864
Off the top of my head, Star Wars, Shadowrun, various 40k RPGs, and various World of Darkness RPGs don't use a per day limit to their powers.

>>46811430
do you remember aragaron summoning the army of the dead in every single encounter?
do you remember gandalf constantly spamming blasts of light?

no, you dont, because those special abilities were limited in some way, whether by story (army of dead was a limited agreement) or other reasons. if a special ability isnt limited in some way, theres no reason not to use it all the time, at which point its no longer special

having strong, limited use powers creates more exciting moments when you do use them


it also presents the GM with the opportunity to create a situation where the characters dont have access to their powers, creating unique situations

>>46811927
>comparing the Army of the Dead or an angel told to limit use of his powers with once per day martial abilities

What is the point if you are going to be this shamelessly disingenuous?

>>46811430
Your inability to handle abstraction is both amusing and sad.

>>46811938
legolas only slid down the stairs on a shield while shooting arrows as well

martial or mystical, the narrative argument for limiting powers holds the same. otherwise you open up the possibility of silly situations

its true that its much more easily in game justified for mystical than martial powers
and you shouldnt go overboard with it, like limiting a fighters ability to cleave or something

i havent played 4e though, so perhaps the implementation there is stupid, i wouldnt know

>>46811938
To be a troll, of course.

>>46811880
no, that anon has a point

don't you believe in "that fucking dice wants my pc to die today"?

>>46811972
Anon, if you don't understand the need to balance out accessibility in terms of functional game mechanics with your false sense of verisimilitude, you have a problem.
I have little issue with such things because I know, IN THE SETTING, to the character, it makes sense.
You, as a player, knowing how something works does not translate to the setting having that knowledge.

>>46811922
>Star Wars, Shadowrun
There is a reason why in those games, the magic users run roughshod all over balance, and that is because they DON'T have hard limits (unless the GM knows the setting well in SR, background count is a bitch).
>40k rpgs
You fool, any psyker that goes willy nilly with their powers needs to be shot. There are other ways the game has to artificially limit their power, accomplishing the same.
>WoD
You clearly never played WoD.
What is Vitae, Essence, Mana, Gnosis, Plasm? All expendable resources used to activate supernatural powers, both magic and martial.
>tl;dr you are fucking stupid goddamn the bait was too strong

>>46811843

Good GM's can make a shitty system good.

But why when they could just play good systems instead?

>>46812008
>What is Vitae, Essence, Mana, Gnosis, Plasm? All expendable resources used to activate supernatural powers, both magic and martial.

Resources like mana are not the same thing as once per day powers.

It's a pool that decreases when used but can be replenished.

D&D powers and vancian casting are completely different.

Are there non-d20 systems at all? Most of the alternatives are d20. Same shit IMO.

>>46811974
Streaks are a part of probability too. It's like my friend who gets all pissed off when he fails a roll he has an 80% chance to succeed. "I had an 80% chance to win, so how could I fail?" To him, 80% is the higher probability by far, so he should automatically succeed. But that's not how probability works. 2 out of 10 times he's going fail rolls like that. And any given streak is unlikely, but not impossible, especially when you consider human pattern recognition and our tendencies to create order (faces in the clouds and whatnot) in places where there isn't any.

>>46812008
>There is a reason why in those games, the magic users run roughshod all over balance

Because in D&D they don't right?

Holy shit, I dare you to show me a more unbalanced system than D&D.

>>46812036
>It's a pool that decreases when used but can be replenished.
None of those can be replenished without some manner of risk or time taken, similarly to 4e powers.
The plus side to powers is that you can't cheat the system the same way you could with 3e Vancian casting.

>>46812048

The thing with d100 systems is that in reality every single result out of 100 has 1% chance of happening.

Yes, by probability 80% chance to succeed should mean that you succeed most of the time. But in reality I had players that rolled 90+ few times in a row.

Best systems are those rolling multiple dice like new WoD or D6. I rarely see completely retarded strings in those.

>>46812070
>vampire drinking blood of enemies
>mana regenerating automatically
>rare and hard

Seriously, stop.

And shitloads of systems don't use resources. While many have optional rules not to use them.

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>>46811207
>>46811295
>>46811322
>>46811356
>>46811382
>>46811430
>>46811446
>>46811449
>>46811499
>>46811809
>>46811857
>>46811585
>>46811927
>>46811938
>>46811972

I always find this kind of logic amusing. This pops up all the time in the /co/tg/tv/ crowd

>Somebody did it once, so they should be able to do it again, perfectly, exactly the same, every time!

Look at real world athletes. If you're deadlifting a thousand pounds, or running a 3 minute mile, or swimming a :50 100 IM then guess what? You can probably only do that once because after you've done it once your body is going to be too fucking exhausted to do it again.

That's what 1/day powers are supposed to represent: things that are so straining on your body, you can only pull them off once between rests. If anything, it's MORE realistic than the idea that when you do something you should be able to do it indefinitely, which is the ultimate in 'video game logic'.

This has been an essay on morons misapplying real world principles. If you've enjoyed this, you may also like
>The Power Level Fallacy
>Reversing the Polarity
>The Prometheus Principle: Scientists Aren't All that Smart IRL Either

>>46812050
Okay.
WoD Mage, all of them.
Anima.
Scion.
WoD Demon, all of them.
Nobilis.
SR2e
Anima.
Exalted.
As for D&D, the only one that was actually broken was 3.pf. 4e had the tightest balance in the series, Basic and 2e were very much well done, 5e is between 2e and 4e for balance.
>>46812084
You seem to be under the impression that it is easy to suck someone dry in Vampire, considering that it runs the risk of breaking the Masquerade in most cases due to fight = ruckus = cops on the way. Mana replenishes in a manner of hours at most, like 1 pip at a time.
Sure, a werewolf can replenish essence by going to a locus, but that doesn't mean that locus is nearby or even has essence to draw from.
You better play those games and find out how it actually works before you use theorycraft and white room as arguments.

>>46812126
Nigger, do you have any idea how fast a vampire fight ends? People are still making the 911 call by the time every motherfucker in the room is dead, and that means that the cops aren't even *moving* yet.

>>46812093
So you think a slightly harder hit or attacking three guys is equivalent to running a mile in three minutes?

>>46812093

Getting tired from pushing your body to absolute limit is not the same as getting 2x attacks every few hours.

And systems without those one use powers have fatigue too.

>>46812073
>But in reality I had players that rolled 90+ few times in a row.
Sure, but you're gonna roll a 90+ roll after a 90+ roll 10% of the time. And given many sessions of a bunch of different players making a bunch of different rolls, sooner or later somebody is gonna end up with strings of 3 or 4 rolls of 90+ in a row. And you'll damn well remember it, because it's striking.

>Best systems are those rolling multiple dice like new WoD or D6. I rarely see completely retarded strings in those.
It's not magic. You'll see fewer strings of things that are less probable. So if you're rolling 6d6, your chance of getting all 4s or higher is actually less than 1.6% (and you chance of rolling all 5s or higher is less than 14 hundreths of a percent). You (and humans in general) just aren't very good at valuing things, so you think the 90+ thing is comparatively more remarkable than it is.

>>46812093
What a shame. You started out strong, then completely missed the mark.
I am not an opponent of 1/day powers, but most of them in D&D do not represent particularly draining feats.
It's more an abstraction of circumstances.

>>46810693
>A lot

Hardly. It's just a few particularly butthurt people, including yourself.

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>>46811013

>>46812337
Oh, thank you. I already feared I was the only one.

>>46812337
As a German I always want to stab myself with a fork when I hear those three cursed letters: "DSA?"

>>46812186

But that's exactly the point.

With % rolls every result has 1% chance of happening. Rolling over 90% a few times is not really that improbable.

But when you play GURPS rolling 3 one's has just 0.46% probability. With 5d6 rolling all one's is just 0.01%.

This is why systems with more dice are generally far less random.

>>46812331

D&D is only really dominant in USA.

In Europe it's not very popular.

>>46812167
No.

It depends on the ability. Nobody so far has actually talked about any specific powers, it's only been
>1/Day powers are unrealistic vidya lojik XP

>>46812169
The main point I was getting at was that it's not the ridiculous, unrealistic trope that everyone in this thread is pretending it is. It doesn't necessarily have to be something physically demanding, it could be something that is very tricky.

Since nobody wants to be specific for some reason, I'll stick my neck out and say that I think 5e does a really good job with this. On the one hand you have barbarians that have a certain number of rages/day (representing the physically demanding side of the spectrum). On the other hand you have the rogue's capstone ability, which basically allows an automatic hit (representing the high difficulty side).

>>46812430
Funny. As a German, I always want to stab the speaker with a fork when I hear the same letters.
Although it doesn't have to be fork. I'd gladly try it with a blunt object, as well.

>>46812430
>>46812515
What's DSA?

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>>46812337
>>46812390
>>46812430
>>46812515
What's wrong with the game? Or is this the German of equivalent of pic related?

>>46811226
>I would rather play 3.5 instead
>WotC' attempt at aping Diablo 2

>>46812456
Then you shouldn't be comparing your chance to roll a 3 to your chance to roll 90+. You should be comparing it your chance to roll 100.

>>46812470
Are you kidding me? I live in Europe and D&D is easily most popular RPG around here. In fact D&D is one of few RPGs that has been translated to my native language. Although only 1st edition and 3.5.

>>46812705

That's still 1% vs 0.46% on 3d6.

In systems like D6 or WoD that roll even more dice those insane bad/good luck strings are almost non existent.

Meanwhile on D20 the lowest you can go is 5%.

>>46812793

Where? Because there are many systems much more popular than D&D in Germany, Italy or Poland.

>>46810693
have you tried not playing 4e?

>>46810693
>I want a system that don't feel like a video game
GURPS

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>>46811207
>Builds straight out of video games.
Nigga, VIDEO GAMES TOOK THOSE FROM TABLETOP.

>>46812804
>That's still 1% vs 0.46% on 3d6.
And those values are so close as to be indistinguishable under less than scientific scrutiny. Honestly, I'm of the mind that if somebody's chance to succeed is closer to 0 than 5%, you might as well just have him auto-fail. It's going to give the exact same results as rolling 215 out of 216 times.

>>46812578
Das Schwarze Auge, English title 'The Dark Eye', generally known as Germany's answer to D&D.

>>46812615
It's not as much of a plague as D&D is, mainly thanks to having to contend with D&D for players.

My knowledge of it is a bit outdated, but what I remember of it is:
>Character creation is a magnitude more complex than D&D's
>Each skill check consists of three attribute checks (d20 roll under) with skill points mitigating bad rolls and determining degrees of success
>Combat is deadly, especially for the patience of the players; everyone I talked to just homebrewed/winged it, because nobody could remember the rules
>Super detailed rules for everything, spread across several books; D&D 3.5 doesn't even come close
>Spells have incredibly cheesy, grating faux Latin-German names; there is an entire literal spellbook "Liber Cantiones", if I'm not mistaken

Fantasy Craft is pretty good.

>>46811353
Bennies are stupid.

>>46810693
Have you tried playing pre-3e D&D?

>>46813766
>Grating faux Latin names
Sensattaco Masterstroke
Ecliptifactus Shadow Force
Ignifaxius Burst of Flame
Corpofesso Aching Limbs
Fortifex Arcane Wall
Gardianum Magic Shield
Karnifilo Frenzy

How can you not love 'em?

>>46814198
Okay, Latin English sounds even worse.
Though I have to admit that very few people share my problem.
I'm not even sure why this is so abhorrent to me but something about the combination just sets me off.

>>46811918

>Actually giving a damn about immersion does not make you autistic

It does when you're going on a rant in the middle of game, horking and sporking over every little thing that "takes you out of the game" while playing a catfolk in a setting that's mostly humans just because it was a playable race in "expanded races."

>something that shits all over the feeling of it being a real world is not 'narrativist'.

So let me get this straight.

You can accept that this is a world where wizards and liches and dragons exist and that's no issue, but the second a martial has to spend something to go above and beyond the limits of the average human and suddenly it's an issue?

Why shouldn't martials get dailies to allow them to do awesome shit when the game is already designed around magic being the number answer to any issue you come across anyways?

>Its a gameist concept that makes no real sense when applied to mundane abilities.

It makes perfect sense, it's just that you're too austistic to accept a reality where martials have their own special abilities that they can only use X times per day because then mages wouldn't be able to shit all over them.

Honestly, I'd be okay with it, especially since Barbarians already operate on the idea of being able to do awesome shit X times per day anyways.

>>46814280
I absolutely love it, myself. I just wish they'd remove the English bits. If the entire magic system was just overdramatic bullshit Latin (but with hard syllables instead of Harry Potters style soft ones) I could really dig it.

Although the purely English spell names appeal to me as well, like Lightning Find You! (exclamation point included) and Standfast Catlike. What are those like in German?

>>46812161

Wow, you're so fucking stupid it hurts.

Even if you manage to kill every motherfucker in the room, you have to consider the following variables.

>Are you dealing with vanilla humans or supernatural creatures/humans who have access to magic or hunter bullshit?
>Are you able to successfully clean up the mess before the cops show up?
>Are you capable of feeding by the time the cops show up?
>Were there witnesses nearby that saw you?
>Were you using bullshit that could easily be traced back to vampirism to anyone who knows about your kind (which, being WoD is likely if you do it long enough).

And keep in mind, you'd only be able to murder a room full of people for so long before other vampires catch wind and start pursuing you due to the risks that you're taking which could damage the masquerade.

Vampire is not just so game where everyone's a vampire that does their own shit, everything you do, you do in order to gain standing within the established vampire hierarchy and if you start doing bullshit that damages the masquerade, people will start looking for you and they'll be way stronger, smarter, and faster than you could ever hope to be and they will not stop until you're no longer a threat.

To say nothing on the other supernatural creatures like changelings, werewolves, and geists or supernaturally aware humans like mages and hunters.

Please, stop talking about games you know nothing about and stick to white rooming shit systems like 3.5/Pathfinder.

>>46810693
This autism is off the charts.

>>46812126

Isn't Anima and Scion and Exalted games where you're playing literal demi-gods though?

Also, I'm fairly certain that everything in those games are designed in a way where everything's broken or the supreme-o OP bullshit takes literally months and months and months of playtime to reach due to how expensive EXP costs get for the really powerful shit.

It's not like D&D where the guy who played a wizard is capable of ending encounters in one turn with enough luck and just explodes from there while the guy who picked a Fighter is slowly fading into the background as more and more opponents are either immune to physical damage or have access to spells that turn them into swiss cheese anyway.

>>46813243

Nigga, 4e literally copied WoW.

>>46813931

They are not even better. You still have ridiculous HP pools and incredibly abstract rules that have nothing to do with reality.

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>>46814728

Wanting a good system is autism.

D&D players everyone.

>>46814508
>hurr durr autism

Grow the fuck up, stop calling people who care about immersion autistic and there might be something to discuss.

Daily limits on non supernatural abilities are stupid, I have never seen any argument otherwise. And no magic is not an answer because any system where martials need nonsensical daily abilities to compete is crap in the first place.

>>46814605
I agree. If it was just one language or the other, the names would be great. But the combination totally kills it for me.

Lightning Find You! is Blitz Dich Find! and Standfast Catlike is Standfest Katzengleich.
They're pretty much direct translations. I like them in German, too.
But then stuff like Ignifaxius Feuerstrahl and Axxeleratus Blitzgeschwind come along and I just find myself wanting to punch the writer(s) in the face.

>>46815364

You can stop. D&D autists will never accept that their game is crap. And nobody ever admits being wrong on the internet.

Obviously everybody should accept dumb shit in the game because that's how the game is. If you like fantasy you must love D&D after all right?

Seriously, those fags are the main reason why so many people have such a shitty opinion about "RPG nerds".

>>46810693
Well, it's only shit for people who want to be effective with every type of class.
Some abilities and weapons are just *blatantly* better than others.

I've noticed that anything not related to buffing, tanking, or DPS is just fucking useless(for melee and ranged anyways).
Stuff that increases your attack roles and overall damage will always be better.

>>46815045
0/10

You are not even trying

>>46815654
And yet you acknowledge it.

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>>46815045
How did 4e copy WoW? Is it a bad thing, and if so, why?

>>46815694
4e has monks! Just like WoW. And warlocks and gnomes and dwarves!

>>46815654
>>46815694

Are you people retarded? It literally has the aggro mechanics.

>>46816076
Aside from that being blatantly untrue, there's still nothing inherently wrong with having rules for NPC behavior in combat.

>>46816076
>Are you people retarded?
That's what I'd like to ask you.
If you can't see a difference between aggro in an MMO and the marking mechanic in 4e, you're a few donuts short of a baker's dozen.

>>46816076
are you sure you mean 4e? you might be thinking of 3e:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2

>Test of Mettle (Ex): Starting at 4th level, you can shout a challenge to all enemies, calling out for the mightiest among them to face you in combat. Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an Intelligence score of 5 or higher. Creatures that do not meet these requirements are immune to the test of mettle. You must have line of sight and line of effect to the targets of this ability.

>As a swift action, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to cause all your enemies within 100 feet with a CR greater than or equal to your character level minus 2 to make Will saves (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier). Creatures that fail this save are forced to attack you with their ranged or melee attacks in preference over other available targets. If a foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target you with the attack or include you in the effect's area.

>>46816249
>class from additional material
>vs
>basic game mechanic

>>46816316
>the very definition of MMO-style aggro
>vs
>not restricting the enemy's behavior

Shit this thread is still going?
Is the 13 year old OP still on here bitchin' about realism in relation to tabletop fantasy and how "uses per day" skills are too much like video games (and therefore crap) but stuff like MP is fine?
Fuck I always had the impression that /tg/ had more sense than this but clearly I was wrong.

>>46815364

Again, what about Barbarians?

They have dailies and they're one of the few martials that aren't dogshit. Does it "break your immersion" when a dude activates rage and cleaves a mofo in half?

Not to mention, it's common that magic must be used to defeat magic, even for classes that claim themselves to being martials.

You need magic weapons, magic armor, magic items, maybe an artifact or tome or something equally powerful and mysterious to successfully take down an ancient magical beast. Hell, I'd even argue that martials depend on magic more than the mages who use magic to cast spells.

So yeah, magic is in fact an answer to most issues.

>>46816316

>Are you people literally retarded, it literally has the aggro mechanics
>Dude posts literal aggro mechanics from 3.5
>HURR DURR THAT DOESN'T COUNT!

Fucking 3aboos, seriously.

>>46812670
Someone doesn't know what
>implying
means.

>>46813915
They just replace fate points. Don't use them if you don't like them.

I'll give you one thing, D&D feels natural, like it was designed by players rather than like committee a la WhiteWolf.

>>46811499
>D&D only started giving them to non casters with 4e.
>What is Barbarian
>What is Monk
>What is Marshal
>What is Binder

>>46815085
What you consider "good" is the same as what a 16 year old who has never once looked into game macanics would assume is good.
You remind me of the imature guys in my game dev course at uni who would spend hours talking about they're amazing anime inspired game ideas about angels and monsters without ever once mentioning the system or the play style etc.
Go home kid, it's past your bedtime.

>>46814765
>Isn't Anima and Scion and Exalted games where you're playing literal demi-gods though?
Scion and Exalted? Yes. In Anima you're generally going to play as either a regular human or a human with a reincarnated soul of one of the extinct inhuman races. At level 1 you're a pretty average dude if you don't min-max, but powerlevels tend to escalate rather quickly as each level is basically equivalent to that of what would be two levels in D&D and by level 6 the PCs can go an just single-handedly fight an army. Actual demigods in the setting would still wreck their shit, though.

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>>46817292

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>>46817292

>>46815045
I agree with you in part however the story behind 4Ed's creation is more complex than the way you make it sound.

>>46816049
... Are you trying to bait?

>>46817423
>>46817390
Have you played exalted? A developer meeting literally goes like this

>Our players don't feel like Jackie Chan because they can actually die
>Oh? we better add yet another system so they can avoid damage
>Genius

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>>46817602

Yes, I have played exalted, and y'know what?

It's a game where everyone involved is a motherfucking demigod who is capable of great feats of strength, speed, and stamina and is also capable of pulling off even greater feats the more detail you put into your action.

The game outright tells you that you're way stronger than most people and you're angry because the PCs are capable of surviving improbable bullshit?

Also, pic related for an idea of how a developer meeting for D&D looks like.

>>46815058
>Ridiculous HP pools
These are apex tier foes in 1e. Compare to the 3.x Baalor with some 290 HP and AC 35.

>Incredibly abstract rules
It is a game, yes.

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>>46818005

>>46815058

Dude, the numbers that high level foes had in 1e and 2e was about the equivalent to a CR10 creature in 3.PF, maybe even lower.

You can't complain about ridiculous HP pools when 3.PF had even bigger issues concerning its HP shit.

>incredibly abstract rules

Y'mean like how you can't attack multiple times per round if you moved beforehand?

Or how you couldn't do basic attacks like spinning in place or cleaving through multiple foes unless you bought a feat?

Or how a mage with one spell could jump higher and leap greater than a dude who put all of his points into jumping?

Abstraction is the name of the game pal but at least earlier editions didn't try to quantify every little thing you could do like they were making rulings at a MtG tournament.

>>46817975
You don't know shit friend, Monte makes Paizo look like Saints. You wouldn't believe the cronyism that goes on in Pathfinder.

>>46818309

Oh, I know about his bullshit too.

I just couldn't find my screenshots about him bitching about crossbows or how weapon cords don't work off a free action because he couldn't do something similar with his mouse cord.

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>>46810693
d6 Fantasy, MiniSix, Iron Heroes, RuneQuest 6th, Warhammer Fantasy (though it needs a couple houserules to really make it, IMO), GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, and probably that Vampire the Masquerade that takes place in medieval Europe.

You know this reminds me of when I play on roll20 with yanks.
When I'm gaming with my British friends we're joking about the characters and the setting or laughing over something meta (whilst also trying to play of course). Not losing sight of the bigger picture.
Yet with Americans it's all about the game, the setting, the statistics or the rules. All serious business, no fun at the table allowed. The second you start laughing they get all grumpy as if you're wasting their time. Like 'we're not playing this game to enjoy ourselves here'.
The kind of butthurt OP's got over D&D and dailies just reminds me of that fucking retarded viewpoint.

>>46819750

There's some unfair stereotyping going on here, but you're not the first person I've heard this opinion from.

Maybe it's because in the UK we have a stronger sense of humility, shame, and banter. But we still have our fair share of That Guys, min-maxers, and grognards.

I find the Pathfinder generals repulsive because of what you described. You lurk in there and everyone is talking about "builds" and the "best" choices, like it's a competitive strategy game rather than a collaborative role-playing game.

>>46815045

Nigerian, WoW was based on AD&D.

>>46811974
Then you take the dice and blow on them for good luck before you roll them.

It really makes me sick how little respect people have for D&D.

Seriously? Video Game mechanics? Video games are what they are nowadays BECAUSE of D&D. Sure, it's abstract as fuck but it's a gamist system, it's not supposed to be realistic, just fun.

Also, Medieval Fantasy is literally the biggest RPG genre, you could just have typed "Medieval Fantasy Tabletop RPG" on google and you'd get a hundred different systems, but of COURSE you had to make this thread and passive aggressively shit on D&D, because it was never about discussing new systems, but make a pseudo-blog-post about how it didn't cater to your likings.

>>46821053

3.5 D&D/Pathfinder is to tabletop games what Call of Duty is to First-Person Shooters.

It brought a lot of normies into the genre and bred a generation of that guys, power-gamers, rules-lawyers, and general meta-gamers who go out and spread their poison to other games and give the hobby a bad name.

>>46821425
I would say so was 1st ed/ 2nd ed brought in allot of dick players too, not at the same level, but it has spawn just this notions that the DM vs player mentality, siding with The DM.
Don't believe me? Well what the hell do you call modules like Death Frost Doom and The God That Crawls?

>>46821425
>bred a generation of that guys, power-gamers, rules-lawyers, and general meta-gamers who go out and spread their poison to other games and give the hobby a bad name.

That has been happening since the hobbie's inception bruh.

Fuck, if anything, expanding the hobby to "normies" is what made the community actually bearable.
Back in 2E days basically 90% of the player base were either underage, that guys, or both.

>>46821636
>Well what the hell do you call modules like Death Frost Doom and The God That Crawls?

Fun? I've never had a problem with those modules, I've ran them a couple of times to different groups and always have a blast.

>>46810693
If the weapon balance wasn't so shit, the game would be fine.

>>46821657

>Fuck, if anything, expanding the hobby to "normies" is what made the community actually bearable.

No community has ever been improved by being all inclusive anon.

>>46824125

Why focus on making weapons worth a damn when wands and scrolls exist.

>>46811020
>Tavern Tales
Second that. That's a great system and the art is beautiful.

>>46824693
Magic is that OP? I haven't experienced what a proper mage can really do yet in DnD so I wouldn't know.

In that case, that's even stupider. Why do they make it so hard to take proper feats and abilities that increase your DPS or armor checks when bullshit like this exists?

>>46827525
Ivory Tower Design.
Look it up.

bumping shit thread

>>46830380
Wow, fuck DnD if all this shit is true.
I have to work my ass off fucking scrolling through shit with a magnifying glass to find any kind of melee feats worth a damn.

Melee seems pathetically cucked in the fact that weapons really don't get better AT ALL and are not suplemented by the fact that you're supposed to get a lot stronger. Meanwhile enemies get amazing fucking dice rolls and skills.
It's bullshit.
An elite lvl 22 monster would absolutely wreck the shit out of a normal lvl 22 character. I'd have to powergame my ass off to even stand a fucking chance.
What's the point? Why can't the feats and skills just be good for fuck's sake?
Why can't I actually earn any FUCKING stat bonuses. What's this shit about needing 3+ in a stat to get a plus ONE to your modifier? That's horseshit.

>>46830431

Welcome to 3.5 D&D/Pathfinder.

Where the rules are made up and the points don't matter.

>>46821636
>>46821425
Let's keep in mind that in this particular analogy, D&D is like Pong, Space Invaders and Super Mario Brothers rolled into one insofar as its role in creating the industry goes. I'm not saying it isn't without its flaws, let's not get too down on the D&D line as a whole, especially the earlier stuff.

>>46830467
Well I'm playing 4e. From the general looks of it, it seems 3.5e actually has decent melee.
In 4e Paladins hit like their fucking nails broke when they tried to bitch slap their boyfriends for turning chaotic evil. Even though they're bruisers and are meant to smite everything.
..So I decided to dual class Berserker with 1 lvl in Pally

Not much better. Too bad goy! you only do decent-ish damage when in rage mode and when you're not? You're basically a cucked paladin.

>>46830521

>From the general looks of it, it seems 3.5e actually has decent melee.

Not really.

You can't attack multiple times in one turn unless you're standing next to your target already (which will open you up to their full round attacks), most higher CR creatures have inherently defenses against mundane attacks, the AC scales way faster than your BAB by default, and a lot of creatures past CR 10+ have access to spells that make it harder to deal with as well.

That's also not getting into how worthless maneuvers are, how stealth is effectively worthless once you start dealing with monsters that can detect you without even rolling anything, and how a martial with max STR who takes every relevant feat to up their attack bonus or damage is still struggling the longer they stay in the game post level 5.

At least in 4e, the main issue was the fucked up math which can easily be adjusted once you know what you're doing.

>>46830431
>>46830380
I ran a homebrewed, play by email game of spaceship combat many years ago. You'd build your ship and explore a section of space, seeing what popped up on your scanners, eventually coming into conflict with the other players when you ran into them. It was designed to progress at a rate of 1 turn a week, and you'd get pages and pages of feedback, history and shit, and could bet on gladiatorial games and send in codes to try to crack the encryption of an alien artifact that was found (a la Mastermind). Anyway, the point is that building your ship--deciding what engine, reactor, scanners, weapons, targeting system, tractor beam and so forth to put on it--was probably the most important part of the game, assume you didn't give downright retarded orders to your ship when the game was underway, anyway. And that was fine, because it was pretty much what the game was about. Playing the game was largely about exploring the effectiveness of the ship you'd built.

The problem with 3e / 3.5 / Pathfinder is that if you did poorly on the character-building stage, it undermined the rest of the game, which was much more important. Actual role-playing is what those games should be about. If you wanted them to be about coming up with a mechanically superior character, then the rest of the game should be limited to something like quick-and-dirty arena combat where you tested out the efficacy of your character design and then called it a day (or started over with a new character).

>>46830496

Early D&D would be like Pong, Space Invaders, and SMB rolled into one since they were learning what to do and the fanbase was small and learning what to do.

3.5/Pathfinder is like CoD because it introduced casuals to the hobby and every other new tabletop gaming system used d20 as its base ruleset and perpetuating poor etiquette all around, such as the idea that the RAW overruled rule 0 (no matter what the manual says, you can't have over 500+ pages detailing every possible thing a character can do and not expect people to treat it like the gospel) and the idea that the character you build is more important than the character you make.

>>46830521
>In 4e Paladins hit like their fucking nails broke when they tried to bitch slap their boyfriends for turning chaotic evil. Even though they're bruisers and are meant to smite everything.

You should have went with blackguard, that's the "smitey" paladin.

The normal Paladin is more of a protector. It even says that in their class description. By trying to build them as a simte machine, you are playing against type.

>>46812093
This is a shit comparison, very few abilities in D&D that are once per day are super draining heroic feats of physical effort, it's a "balancing" factor. You know. Like you'd consider when designing a videogame.

What D&D alternative is good for my dumbass players? Some of them are borderline special ed. I'm not joking.

>>46812475
There is no real getting around that it's just a balancing thing, and not anything grounded in the reality of the setting. It's a videogamey abstraction, not something logic.

Did you ever lose your 1per day feat without using it because you were exhausted? Did you ever get to do it twice because of ideal circumstances? If you had any kind of stamina enhancing effect going on, would you get free 1 per day feats because you're not exhausted?

No, because it's not a simulation of anything, it's just a cooldown timer on an ability avoid it being too good, as decided by the designer.

>>46830690
>>46830521
>..So I decided to dual class Berserker with 1 lvl in Pally

That's... that's not how multi-classing in 4e works at all.

I don't think Berserker even has a hybrid. You could grab multiclass feats for Paladin as Berserker maybe, that's what you mean?

Anyway, as said, rebuild as Blackguard.

>>46830702

There are literally dozens of games that were mentioned earlier ITT.

>>46830753
I was hoping something closer to d20 would be pointed out. I've been looking into 13th Age and D&D 5e with alignments stripped down but I wanted to see all my alternatives.

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>>46830521
Are you high, dude?

4e is the one D&D edition with the smallest power/flexibility gap between martials and non-martials.

>>46830521

4e Paladins can be built pretty smitey, though as Defenders they are generally more about ally protection.

>>46816076
I recall 4e having more of a risk reward system for enemies, where tank characters had abilities that disincentivized attacking anyone else.

>>46830841

Yeah. They didn't force attacks on them.

The heavily restricted movement and punished attacking their allies (The exact amount of each varying by the defender).

>>46810693
>I want a system that don't feel like a video game or a minis game that pretends to be RPG.
From the looks of this thread, you don't want any system. Rules are always going to either be abstractions, or unplayably complex.

Stick with DM fiat freeform or something.

>>46830779
Have you considered checking out the OSR thead? Old dnd is much less rule heavy then new dnd and you dont have to fuck around with muh alignment or muh class options.

>>46821053
>because it was never about discussing new systems
You know what? Fuck off anon.
I make threads all the time trying to discuss other systems and I never get any responses. All you guys ever want to talk about is the same 4 or 5 games over and over again.

>>46830702
Nice way to view your players.
If you don't like them that much don't play with them.

>>46831374
Second this anon. New system discussions are great as long as we crawl out if the pit of bullshit known as edition wars.

>>46812814
Finland, but I'm interested what RPGs are popular in Germany, Italy and Poland if not D&D? Are they some local games?

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>>46832358
<- This

>>46831401
No, I mean some of them are literally borderline special ed. It's what happens when you have Autism and want to play D&D.

>>46814671
Yeah, you have no idea of what the fuck you are on about, and just screaming butthurt and hoping flinging globs of text around will hide your ignorance.

Eat my asshole, fuckface.

>>46830733
I'm still new to the game. Our DM last session randomly sometimes just assigned us levels in completely different classes, whether it made sense or not.

>>46834674
But autists would be likely very good with rules and math, so they would easily handle more complex rules than D&D. In fact all autistic/asperger gamers I have met consider D&D rules to be too unrealistic. Most seem to prefer GURPS. Getting in role is where they seem to have most problems, not the mechanics.

>>46832749
I'd like to see her dark eye

>>46834789

What the fuck is wrong with your DM.

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>>46835429

>>46810713
Tried fantasy craft. It seemed like if someone took 3.5 and decided that the problem was that it wasn't needlessly complex enough. Either that or they were getting paid per rules subsystem.

I like theory crafting in it, but...why did anyone make these decisions?

>>46810713
Kek all of those are garbage for different reasons

There is literally nothing wrong with DnD

>>46810713
>GURPS Dungeon Fantasy


kill yourself

I've got a question guys, what system would you recommend for playing what would normally be seen as underpowered characters. I don't really enjoy how even at lvl 1 in D&D you're already super crazy powerful, I would just like something where you start out as a farmer or something and can build up from there.
cheers.

>>46811338
You should shit twice a day, after breakfast and after launch.

>>46837489
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd Ed.

>>46837664
Do I? Bloody hell! Thanks for the heads up.

>>46837489
>how even at lvl 1 in D&D you're already super crazy powerful

What DnD are you playing? You are poverty-level garbage at first level.

>>46837678
I usually don't like rolling stats for character creation. But I love it in whfb. Maybe it is becuase the inherent expandability of the characters. Or because the silly classes.

>>46837382
What got your panties in a twist?

>>46837759
I'm the same.
I also like rolling in Traveller, as the career tables make it interesting.

>>46836555
What's wrong with Fantasycraft?

>>46837382
>says this for GURPS but not Dungeon World

You should join him in death.

>>46837678
Cheers, I'll have a look.

>>46835861
Uhh nothing really. He just wanted to progress the story faster. So we can take hybrid classes up the asshole.

>>46837664
What? I thought you're supposed to shit every other day.

>>46810693
>A lot of people always say that D&D is shit
>and that there are much better alternatives out there.

people usually say just the first one, as is the only thing needed.
When you are stranded at the sea and someone tries to drink sea water, you say "dont do it" without actually telling more.

You just dont play, ok but the alternativ.....
Look you dont play d&d we arent implying more stuff

>>46812615
you are getting this picture wrong.

As some example this picture doenst apply to fatal

>>46837364
this desu

>>46841043

>people usually say just the first one, as is the only thing needed.

People have also recommended several RPGs ITT.

>>46842496
Those are just hipster and meme games.

>>46842543

Says the 3aboo.

Unless you have a water bottle on hand.

>>46811207
>Skills used once per day/rest.
I can get behind not having massive HP pools or ridiculous builds (though the latter can be fun at times) but honestly how many video games have skills used once per day? This isn't really an exceptionally common thing, and definitely not a defining element of "video-gamey" rulesets.

>>46811207
>builds straight from video games

You're a fucking moron. Please stop screwing up my hobby with your idiocy and kill yourself.

>>46818052
You do realize that Dispater and Baalzebul and basically demigods? One off NPCs the DM can use against the characters? That's why they're labelled Arch-devil. They rule an entire level of Hell.

Because the other monsters on that page are HD 8 and 9, that's only 64 and 72 HP max. Most PCs will have an equal amount or greater HP by the time they should be fighting those monsters.

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is pretty solid.

>>46845891
And even then, you could find that one rare greater devil that has only 8 or 9 hp.
But yes, older D&D, most monster that have a fixed HP are either fucking terrifying or fucking push overs.

Rolled 4 (1d10)

>>46810693

>>46842629
This whole "video game" argument is stupid because D&D existed well before video games. It was video games that adapted D&D, not the other way around. Besides you could make that argument easily about extra crunchy (to play games like that you have to think like computer) games and yet almost no one considers them to be video game like because such systems are rarely adopted to video games despite that they would be better than D&D (which is simple and abstract, made to played on table instead of computer) in that context.

But yeah, D&D is a gamist system and that's what it's meant to be. It was born from miniature wargaming. It's not like you need to like it and there are plenty of systems that are less gamist, but as far as gamist systems go D&D is pretty good if not the best.

>>46814198
Any lists of these spells online? I could use this for roleplaying reasons, and my googling seems to be inadequate.

>>46840345
Actually more often you shit, the better it is for your health. I don't mean that diarrhea (usually sign that something is wrong) is good for you or that you should use laxatives which isn't very good idea outside emergency, but rather shitting normally as often as you can. That way your shits will be easy to pass (won't make your ass hurt and bleed like constipated shits) and toxins don't build up in your colon.