/srg/ - Shadowrun General

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How pink is your mohawk, /srg/?

Hrm. Did we ever get an official decision on how biocompatibility is supposed to work with Used cyberware? Is it supposed to be 1.1 or 1.15?

>>46628473
>Bitching about ammo edition

Gel for nonlethal, APDS for when not. Regular shot for for suppressive fire, otherwise it gets really expensive. All the rest is for tryhards trying to be "cool", "original" or other nonsense. Okay, tracer ammo for suppressive fire because it's effective and a beautiful spectacle in the darkness, but my credstick hurts simply thinking about it.

>>46628527

HeroLab puts the cost at 1.1, if that's anything to go on.

I'm sure it might have been covered in a forum post somewhere or something, but I don't have that on hand.

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>>46628980
Honestly, I don't really use APDS, even when it is a lethal situation. It just seems like there's not enough heavily armoured people to justify the cost.
stick'n'shock4lyfe

>>46628980

Stick-N-Shock's not bad for nonlethal. Gel barely inches it out in average damage, but the added bonus of reducing their initiative is worth it to me.

>>46628521
>have performer skill
>invested contacts in band members
>one mission involved entertaining a magical beast
>another involved protecting a Renraku idol by singing backup

It's pretty damn pink.

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>>46628994
The reference I have is this:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21061.msg381782#msg381782

Chummer's implementation gives me
Standard: 0.9, flat reduction by 0.1
Used: 1.15.
Alpha:0.7, original value of 0.72
Beta:0.6, original value of 0.63
Delta:0.4, original value of 0.45
Gamma: 0.3, original value of 0.36

As far as I'm aware I'm doing it properly per the rules, but I don't have anything official to hang the hat on.

>>46628980

APDS is overkill and honestly not required.

12F makes for instant jail sentence, whereas you can justify running around with a AK-97 or M-23 as a bodyguard with a Fake License and SIN.

Plus you can buy a ton of regular ammo for a fraction of the price of APDS. I like having the option of reaching out to a fixer for 100 rounds every so often when you absolutely need to kill people but even then it's liable to be APDS on a Sniper Rifle to conserve Nuyen.

>>46629076

Yeah, it appears that flooring the hundreths digit is the proper behavior, especially with that post backing it up.

>>46629086
Every role has resource sinks, bribes, services, reagents, getting bricked etc, etc. For Combat specialist its speciality ammo. Saying that "You don't need it" just means that your GM goes easy on you.

>>46629052

I changed stick & shock to be limited to Shotgun rounds back when it was the uber ammo in 4e but these days most of the runners don't use it unless they are bounty hunters.

I tend to use it pretty frequently for security guards who often have shotguns loaded with it plus their tasers because bodies create too much paper work and bosses typically like to interrogate trespassers before disposal of bodies.

>>46629111

I'm typically the GM and honestly it's overkill in regards to the setting. Unless you are playing a mercenary special forces team the goal of most missions should not be maximum bodycount.

With Run & Gun rules where Bursts can increase damage you can typically take down most grunts without having to spam Ares Alphas with APDS which seems to be the standard build out for /srg/ combat specialists.

>>46629113

4e Stick-N-Shock was stupid good. The 5e version is pretty well-balanced.

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>>46629111
But combat characters generally need to spend a lot of money on 'ware (or foci) and on kitting out their weapons with the proper upgrades. APDS is nice, but even when you're doing something like smashing a 405 Hellhounds bar you aren't going to need it. It was pointed out last thread, but the enemies given in core and elsewhere generally don't have APDS themselves until they are hitting the 'special forces' level.

If your whole character is built around killing dudes, some APDS can help in corner cases, but you need maybe 1 or 2 magazines tops, compared to 5 of regular.

>>46629052
Eh, they're good too, but I like Gel's knockdown personally. They can't run/dodge sprawling on the floor.

>>46629138

Perhaps I'm was unclear, you shouldn't use APDS every fight. You shouldn't even be using regular, lethal ammo every fight. What you need to have as a combat specialist is backup ammo clips designed to deal with tougher shit. Because if your combat specialist is having to go lethal chances are HTR is on the way, unless its some thugs, and then yeah you can just mow them down, but where is the fun in dealing with thugs all the time.

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Capsule rounds are best nonlethal. DMSO+Narcoject soaks through armor and takes effect immediately, on top of the stun damage from the projectile itself.

>>46629086
It's one of those SHTF handies. You know, in cases of "suddenly, HTR" or ill-humored Spirit.

>>46629175
Yeah, but you don't need to use it as standard on everyone.

Besides, the previous thread was bitching about assuming all the ENEMY gangers would have a mag of APDS ready to gun you down with, which is why 19 armour won't cut it for casual "naked wear".

>>46629153
The statted enemies are generally speaking hilariously underpowered in 5e.

>>46629204
No, of course not. Gel/SnS for regular work, APDS for hen drek hits the fan is the way to go.

>>46629204
Hmm. I would agree with the armor part though. "Enough that the nastiest weapon you could encounter only knocks you out" is a good rule to live by. There might be only one guy with a single-shot nasty surprise in the whole bunch, but it won't make you less hurt if you're the poor schmuck taking it to the face.

>>46629293
The thing is, wearing gear that shrugs off HTR weaponry is much more likely to be noticed and get the HTR guys to saunter up and ask precisely why you're packing hardened milspec suits and standing around gormlessly outside Ares HQ.

More easy to talk your way out if you're just wearing a discreetly armoured jacket that isn't necessarily picked up on.

>>46629350
True, but that's what cyberware/magic is for. You can get a lot underneath that jacket/suit discreetly.

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in my german shadowrun 5 core rulebook, there is a small text in the rigger section about a guy who just upgraded his beloved mct nissan roto-drone's sensors to [5].

so now I'm looking through the book, reading about riggers, mechanics and sensors but can't find a section about how to upgrade your drone's stats. what materials and skillchecks do you needs to improve your drone's body, pilot or sensor?

>>46629207

They are only underpowered if everyone goes with ridiculous levels of specialization and have crazy dicepools.

So yeah they probably need to be upgraded if you play a lot of missions but if the characters are more talented generalists and they con their way through most encounters then you really don't need to throw monster dicepools at the the PCs when increasing the number of mooks is better for increasing the challenge.

>>46628980
>>46629052
Don't you need to overcome the armor for it to do damage? You'll need to use an assault rifle just to land a solid hit against someone with an armored vest, let alone an armored jacket or full body armor.

Regular rounds are non lethal for high armored targets.

http://shadowrun.tumblr.com/post/142318502791/we-are-the-future

http://shadowrun.tumblr.com/post/142369971196/im-standing-up


wew

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>>46630230
This just in: statement on Tumblr is socially liberal. Film at 11.

But seriously, I always have an over-representation of minorities and social victims in the shadows, because that's the entire point of the shadows- They don't fit in the spaces designated by corps and nations, so they get shoved into the societal junk drawer. Looking at the people on Jackpoint just reinforces that, because a lot of them are political/cultural radicals or mentally ill, or both. In a utopia, Plan 9 would be taken somewhere they could get treatment for their many obvious mental illnesses; in the SR dystopia, they post their insane ramblings online somewhere they believe they are accepted.

>>46630221
>Don't you need to overcome the armor for it to do damage?

No, you do not. That is only the case with Hardened Armor. Regular armor will just "downgrade" the damage to stun. (If it was physical to begin with.)

>>46630221
Nah. If the modified damage isn't more than the armor, it just becomes stun and they can use Body + modified armor to resist the damage.

In general, unless you're dodgy enough to only get hit by a few successes and well armored, each shot's going to do some stun to you, and that can eventually take you out.

>>46630132
>They are only underpowered if everyone goes with ridiculous levels of specialization and have crazy dicepools.

That's really not the case. Players with dicepools of 12 and reasonable armor will waltz through rating 1-3 mooks and their DP of 6 and shitty gear. Nevermind a really optimised killing machine.

>>46630047
Dunno for the German version, but for the English one: Rigger 5.0 pg. 123

>>46630524
To be fair that should be some of the point of being at the level of a standard gen-runner.

You are better than the vast majority of the corp-sec you're going to meet. However, they outnumber you by no less than five to one and passively cast summon bigger fish.

You don't want to fight them because in the worse case the time spent shooting is what let the big guys catch up and put the hurt on you.

>>46630524

Average Opposition:

Agility + Skill: 7 (+1 for laser sight or Gear Based Smart-link)
Armor: 9 (or 12) + 3

Typically mooks will be armed with SMG/Machine Pistols and be spamming bursts or suppressive fire or shotguns that are set for narrow/medium spread.

Their first goal is to find hard cover and the concentrate fire on the most threatening or nearest character. Yeah they miss a lot but that's the intent of the game. Mooks get mowed down.

>>46630622
Agreed, but the power gap is ludicrous. Street gangs would long be an extinct problem if it was that easy to slaughter them by the dozens.


>>46630686
Thanks for the confirmation.

>>46630769
I feel there's two parts to that. One is that, unless there's personal beef, a runner probably has better things to do than hunt down street gangs.

The other is that a lot of gangs do just disappear or become wholly irrelevant and replaced by the next group of disaffected and disenfranchised to come along.

The ones that don't tend to have ways of getting money, or some kind of backer, or become new mafia/yakuza groups, and so are threats in different ways. Especially if some runner wasn't thorough enough in hunting 'em down.

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>>46630565
oh, so I'm missing an entire book. thanks mate, appreciate it

>>46630837
See, I agree with that. And that's how the background fluff treats the shifting power struggles between all players. My problem is that the crunch as offered doesn't represent it. At all.

>>46630958
Obviously more gangs need to hire Brandon Heat-level cleaners. Complete with what happens afterwards.

No, that shouldn't happen, at least not more than once. Too many drug and magic enhanced undead spoil the broth, you know. It's all the rotting meat.

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>>46630958
The way I look at is that they mislabeled the categories. The 'average' runners are actually pretty close to being prime runners, with hundreds of thousands of nuyen worth of gear or ware, Magic abilities and foci in the top 1%, with natural attributes and skills that are world-class. The NPCs as presented would fall into some sort of equilibrium, but from the vaunted position of PCs they seem grossly underpowered.

>>46629086
Well, if I get caught red handed with my Lynx, I think that the APDS it's loaded with is the least of my problems.

>>46631139
More people need to play trolls with Krime Cannons. Show people what unreasonably illegal really means.

>>46630837
The reality is that even regular corporate security will go down with a single hit even if they are still alive. That and most will bug out if they see their friends go down.

Also keep in mind that unconscious guards are preferred to dead guards most of the time.

>>46631243

Unless you are the Payday Gang where rather than surrendering the guards in the vault defend it with dinky pistols vs heat where they followed what the robbers say

>>46631221
Why not Panther Assault Cannons?

>>46630474
>>46630506

Sorry, I meant to say with gel ammo. You'd need a pretty heavy gun to do any damage to even lightly armored targets while using gel ammo.

So does that completely negate the knockdown effect of the gel ammo, or would you compare the hypothetical damage against the physical limit to determine knockdown.

Say for example you're shooting someone full auto with an Ingram X using gel ammo (DV8s, AP+1) and manage 2 net hits. Your target is wearing an armored jacket (12, effectively 13 with gel ammo), has a body of 3 and (lets say) a physical limit of 4. Right then and there, no damage since armor > DV means it drops a condition track, and since stun is the lowest track, its ignored.

Now, gel ammo is designed to knock people down as well. Its knockdown DV is 12 (base+net hits+special). Would the target resist with body+armor (16) to see if he can "soak" enough "knockdown damage" to overcome the knockdown, or is this step ignored?

Furthermore, if thats not the case, would this be a good system to implement as a house rule for only gel ammo?

>>46631243
Yeah, especially if you went for high base damage or AP. Although how much that means depends on the size of the group you met and where and how the meeting happened.

If somebody opened a door to the break room and surprise, surprise five man team having coffee, that's one thing and with a lucky roll or two you could have the whole team out in one action, much less the two you'd want to take down for them to retreat.

If, on the other hand, you were unlucky and those guys raised some noise and now there's a twenty man team parked in the entrance, they're mostly going to try and slow the runners down with stacks of suppressive fire, staying behind cover, and generally trying to make you take time to get that sixth man.

>>46631533
Because you can get almost as good for almost half the price.

>>46631548
It only goes from physical to stun. Stun doesn't downgrade.

Srg, I got involved in an argument involving mysad PP post gen. Can you or can't you buy them in career mode. I.E. Mysad starts with 6 magic 5 PP, does a mission, spends 5 karma to get extra PP (up to magic cap, as per p 71 of CRB).

Does anyone know of any statements from catalyst to that effect, and if so can you share a source.

>>46631672
Do you have a page number for this? Core says that if the modified DV is less than the armor, that physical damage is downgraded to stun, but when you look at splitting the damage (where instead of dealing all physical damage, you apply half the damage to the physical track, and half to the stun track), they say;

"if the damage was an odd number, make the Stun Damage the higher value. If the modified total Damage Value of the attack is less than the modified Armor Value of the defense, the attack ends up doing only half damage, all of it applied to Stun" (196 Core)

The way I see it, if the total modified DV was less than the armor value, both sets drop a condition track; the physical turns to stun, and the stun is ignored. I understand this as a precedent to ignore stun damage when the modified DV is lower than the armor value.

Again, I'm trying and hoping to find the rule that says that stun doesn't downgrade

>>46632006
I'm pretty sure that the rundown on page 69 is supposed to make it somewhat explicit that the one PP for 5 karma is a chargen thing only.

Afterwards you need to initiate and take the Power Point metamagic.

>>46632075
Thing is, neither p 69 nor anywhere else has word only involved. But that's beside the point - I honestly am not looking to start the argument here. Just wondering if anyone has clarification quote.

So I'm just getting into Shadowrun - read the core rulebook and stuff. What's the order in which I should read the additional sourcebooks to get a chronological development of the metaplot (I see CFD mentioned, Boston lockdown, corporate audit and I have no idea what those are)

>>46632066
Page 173, when it's talking about the combat sequence.

What you're looking at is the specific rules for the splitting the damage called shot. It works differently than normal because you're explicitly trying to not kill the target as bad as you should be.

And is why you can't do it at all if your AP exceeds the enemy's armor.

Having recently read a bit about the SOX, and comparing it with real life situations (the failed attempt at making the french Saar Protectorate a territory of federal Europe, the role of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg in the EU,...), I have to say I'm pretty impressed by the amount of work and understanding of euro politics of the writers at the time.

I wonder if it's just a hidden gem of the background, or if the setting is full of nice references that I haven't seen yet.

>>46632134
Ok, I guess that makes pain editors almost as useful as wired reflexes/synaptic boosters for combat monsters, huh?

>>46632277
Depends on the kind of combat monster. A high body troll with Titanium Bones might not need it because, again. Troll with high body, three more of it for resisting damage, and three more points of armor than normal.

But yeah, it's pretty darn useful.

>>46632269
It's part of the old edition fluff. It gets worse with each edition.

>>46632131
The metaplot only matters if you choose for it to matter in your game, in which case your GM can give you the short version.

If you really want to read that shit, most of it is probably in Stolen Souls.

>>46632120
I have not really seen any clarification on Power Point costs aside from that each PP cost 5 karma not 2.

>>46632659
It's a matter of editing and interpretation.

I'm one that feels that the 5 karma is a chargen only thing. Especially because that the same errata calls out Mystic Adepts not get a free power point when their magic goes up(but they can as a metamagic).

As someone who's dismayed at the universally negative reputation of insect shamans (which they did earn in Chicago, granted), is it possible to incorporate eccentric but good-natured bug-magic users in a campaign?

I find it difficult to imagine that not a single one worships historically benevolent insect deities like Khepri (the eponymous scarab beetle and aspect of Ra), or uses their powers for innocent purposes (e.g. a Bee-spirit worshipper who runs a local apiary to provide for their family and community).

>>46632621
I am going to be the GM, so I'll have to know it

>>46632726
The other side of the argument is that as the 5 karma cost is the same as a spell's karma. Thus you can buy new power points up to your magic post chargen the same way as spells.

>>46632791
Did you even read the insect spirit section of the magic book (hint: it's in the section with the evil magic drek)?

>>46632791
The thing is that the second group aren't bug shamans, they're shamans that follow an insect or insect like thing.

Bugs are A Specific Thing and always bad because of their nature.

Now you could have an Egyptian tradition mage that follows a mentor spirit that aligns with Khepri or Ra, and have some misunderstandings based around that, but they're not a bug shaman.

>>46632858
But then why call out being able to get the power point as a metamagic? If you could get it for 5 (plus the karma you were already spending for initiation and probable magic increasing) why say that it can be got as a metamagic.

I'd say some stuff about the interaction of the previous cap and getting the metamagic power point, but that leads to a rough cycle of stuff I'd want to not get into.

>>46632791
Friendly reminder anon:
BUG SPIRITS ARE NOT I REPEAT NOT SPIRITS OF BUGS
they are more like shedim: from a deep metaplane, only come when the mana level is high, can't stay here, absolute disregard for earth life. Their M.O. is:
>find a willing (usually crazy, brainwashed or ignorant) victim
>grant him power to summon more bug spirits
>once they have become too strong, are not useful anymore or just for shits and giggles they plant themselves into the host soul, eat it from the inside and unleash themselves onto this earth

>>46632910
That's why it is ultimately up to the GM how it would work.

>>46632910
PP as metamagic allow you to get more PP than your score in Magic. Just like regular Adepts can get 2, one with the metamagic and one by increasing their score after initiating.

>>46632910
The real question is if the Power Point Metamagic is the only Adept Metamagic that a MysAd can take or if they are clarifying that they can get any of the Adept Metamagics.

>>46633026
I, on the other hand, feel that this is like the RCC non-autosoft program problem.

From the format it seems like there was supposed to be an in book answer, but between bad editing and/or wording, it didn't get in.

>>46632726
Allright, since I can't find errata and can't just get over it ill post a few points about why 5 karma at chargen only makes less sense than otherwise:

Mysads have less magic at same priority than adepts. They compensate for it by having the same number of spells as a mage of equal Magic, but lack an often underestimated ability to project. This leaves them behind adepts in starting karma and behind mages in utility.

Adepts are described as gaining powers gradually, it makes no sense to forbid character development of street level mysad with 4 Magic and 4 PP into established mysad with 6 magic and 6 PP.

Each time mysad decides to get extra PP by spending 5 karma, adept can spend that karma on improving their character in other ways, thus, again, shafting mysads.


>>46632910
>But then why call out being able to get the power point as a metamagic
Because sometimes you want more PP than allotted cap at you Magic. This is true for both adepts and mysads.

>>46633136
Mysads can take any adept metamagics, but they only can take Mage metamagics if they go magicians way. This is a disputed point introduced with SG(that introduced adept ways).

>>46633191
That point, I feel is one of perspective that we won't ever get across. To me, a Mystic Adept with a mage that traded out some mage stuff for adept powers. They can still grow as a mage easily, but adept growth is something they struggle with.

You see 'em as adepts with mage powers, and so they grow as adepts do.

(My only real point of contention is that you really have to try to make one Power Point worth five karma worth of improvement. But that's a bit aside of the whole issue of how we see things.)

>>46633310
Well to me mysads are awakened who try to channel their magic both inside and outside. They can develop as either mage or adept, but will develop slower then either in respective directions. Remeber that to properly develop as mages they need to spend 20 karma on magicians way, and only after that can the properly initiate. Resulting at being about one IG behind mages, and not having bonus of any of other ways like adepts.

Just to weigh in I don't think that the "5 karma" thing should be a thing outside of chargen, keep in mind Improve Physical Attribute costs 1PP, which is definitely worth more than 5 karma.

>>46633514
That last bit's a wrinkle added by SG, but otherwise, like I said.

Matter of perspective.

>>46633540
>which is definitely worth more than 5 karma
Remember that all sane mysads would start with 6 PP and 6 magic if you told them that they cant get any more. Thus to gain extra PP Mysad would have to Initiate (13 karma), Increase magic (35 karma), and only after that they can get the PP(5 karma). All the while sammy can just drop all of that into ware (106 k). It would be disingenuous to claim that IG or Magic have no advantage for mysads on their own, obviously they do, but to benefit from that advantage they have to further invest karma into spells and/or skills.

That is not to say that mysads are somehow underpowered all in all. It's hard to ascertain balance in a game as complex as SR. It's quite possible that PP cost should be increased to 10 or 15 for mysads (regardless of when it is purchased). Cause hey increase reflexes is broken. But thats house rules, and while useful, they aren't really relevant to subject. Just wanted to point out that saying that it costs 5 karma to grab an extra point of STR isn't exactly correct math wise.

>>46633591
Simply put, yes. But in the end question is of mechanical balance nature and that's real reason behind me perpetuating it.

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My GM made this a while ago while we were making new chars

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>>46633886
>Force 18

>>46633999
Actually it isn't that hard if you don't mind dying to drain afterwards. You get channeling metamagic. Channel force 9 Spirit. And throw da ball of doom.

>>46633860
I do want to say that on the balance, if you take the (sillier) more expansive interpretation of Magician's Way, then it becomes an incredible value if you take it for 20 karma later on (statement on the forums that they were intended to work this way, perhaps we'll see it in the erratted version), and then as your first initation you go into Apotropaic Magic, take the Shielding Metamagic as your free ritual, enhancement, or metamagic for initiation into a school of magic, and then you're suddenly a good bit up on everyone else.

I only really bring it up to point out that SG had some issues that it shouldn't have had.

>>46634038
Oh I know it's perfectly feasible, but yeah... Drain's gonna be murderous.

This being said, Edge's one hell of an equalizer, and there are cases where you positively, absolutely needs to fuck up everything terminally with extreme prejudice.

Is it just me, or is a spell like punch insanely good if you're competent in melee?
For example, it's drain value is F-6 so there's no reason to cast it at anything lower than force 8, so already you're doing 8S -8AP, plus any net hits on the spellcasting test, which is probably roughly ~3 for 11S -8AP, which can be scaled up to force 14 before you even start taking physical damage.

>>46634252
Yes. This is counterbalanced by the fact you have to be in melee range (not always the safest place to be) and touch your target so you better not mess up. But it is a very effective spell.

>>46634252
Technically, if you rolled really badly on the drain resistance, that force 8 spell can make you take physical.

But mostly because you probably don't want to be that close in.

If you're still going to go for it, fetish limit the spell and make the drain code F-8.

>>46632859
Okay, so by that token could a character be an Earth-native, honest-to-God friendly insect worshipper who embodies the beneficial role they have in our ecosystem?

That's what I detest about the fluff; it appropriates the word 'insect' to describe the vaguely arthropod nasties spawned from Yuggoth, yet makes little to no effort to distinguish them from the little bros who make sure our world isn't covered in refuse or decimated due to zero pollination.

>>46634054
To the best of my knowledge it's intentional for all adepts to be able to be able to buy ways post gen. It's caused by them wanting to allow already running adepts access to way. One can dispute sanity of this design of course but it's there.

But I don't see how shielding puts a mysad ahead of everyone? It's just an extra counterspelling dice, am I missing something?

>>46634252
There are a lot of broken shit in SR. My favourite example is that by raw RAW mentor spirit and speciality apply after splitting dice for multiple spells. Thus letting you throw 6 times 6D6 worth of direct combat spells with DV of net+2. defended only by Willpower. And dont even get started on triple tap action.

>>46634335
Drain becomes physical if your hits on spellcasting exceed your magic. Force of the spell is only relevant for calculating what amount of drain you are taking, not what type.

>>46634335
>>46634324
Huh, so if you limit it at most (assuming Mag 6) you'll take 4S/4P, which would probably get soaked down to 2S/2P for a base damage of 12S/-12AP, plus net hits.
Shame there aren't any other indirect touch spells.

I've decided to get three guns for my phys adept:
>Primary: Browning Ultra-Power
>Secondary: Streetline Special
>SNAFU gun: ???

As you can see, the third part is empty. What do you guys think should go there?
What I am looking for is something that I can conceal with a lined coat but that is still more powerful than BU-P.

>>46634507
Well, you're going to want a SHTF gun for when you go in loud at least, personally I recommend an Ares Alpha loaded with APDS.

>>46634354
Yes, it's possible. Just most are in different schools and probably focus on that part.

Because the bugs had a huge, huge scam going on and so that's what people think of when they think insects. Imagine if Aum Shinrikyo had managed to co-opt an entire other religion instead of being their own thing.

>>46634426
Because if you're taking the silly interpretation, you have shielding, and also access to Spell absorption, reflection, and so forth. It's totally not a sane interpretation, but it's there.

And what I was going on about the way buying was that it was supposed to be available to purchase at 20 at all times.

And the spell drain is one of those things that always trips me up. Mostly because the old way made more sense, doubly so if it's hits and not net hits. (The point of phys at force 8 still holds, it just becomes a lot less likely.)

>>46634548
>>46634507
Ares Alpha with Flash Bangs or Thermal Smoke Grenades.

>>46634459
You'd take 6S/6P if you're reckless enough to cast it at Force 12 (the max you can go with MAG 6). But yes, a hit from a 12S ap -12 "weapon" will severely ruin almost everyone's day.

>>46634548
>>46634606
I would have to get that after chargen because of it being forbidden and all, but yeah, that's a VERY solid option.

I'm still a bit vary about smartguns though. Since I ain't getting augs I would have to rely on literally plugging it in to some visual aids.

>>46634507
First of all, what firearms skill(s) are you competent in?

>>46634651
The availability for the Ares Alpha is 11F not 13 or more. The item being forbidden does not mean you cannot get it at chargen, only if the availability is more than 12. The only problem with forbidden is that your fake licenses do not cover them.

>>46634581
>Because if you're taking the silly interpretation, you have shielding, and also access to Spell absorption, reflection, and so forth. It's totally not a sane interpretation, but it's there.

I don't see how anyone could possibly argue for that interpritation.. All magicians way does (by RAW, the way it reads to me) is allow you to take initiations like a magician would. I.E. Removing restriction on mage metamagics for adepts. You still need to initiate and you still get only 1 metamagic you initiated for. You still need to buy/initiate to get all other stuff in the respective Art.

>>46634651
>because of it being forbidden
Being forbidden doesn't limit getting things at chargen, the only limit is the number, you can get 12/12R/12F items at chargen.

If a decker wastes his time hacking your smartgun because it's wireless is on he is a retarded decker, hacking weapons is a trap option for deckers.

>>46634683
Archery 8
Automatics 10
Blades 8
Clubs 8
HW 8
Longarms 10
Pistols 11
TW 8
UC 8
>>46634706
OOOOOHH! Holy shit my options widened way the fuck up. Good thing you noticed.

>>46634745
You do realize that a competent deckers bricks an unprotected wireless on gun in one action pass?

>>46634739
Like I said, silly. It borders on deliberate misinterpretation of access, but I seem to recall stranger interpretations of things in past threads.

>>46634745
It's also the silliest non-lethal way of dealing with things.

>>46634746
You might want to switch out the Streetline Special out for a Colt Agent Special (a little harder to conceal but the little fucker packs one hell of a wallop).

Then consider switcing the Browning for Steyr TMP. You can use it as a pistol in SA mode, and it has the advantage of BF/FA for more tactical options. At the cost of 1 base damage, true. But if you really want max damage, go for a Super Warhawk.

>>46634780
Presumably if you have wireless on you've got everything slaved to your DR 4-6 commlink.
Also, if he was just going to use a non-implanted smartlink, he may as well just use a wireless laser sight since getting a laser sight bricked wouldn't fuck your entire gun over like a bricked smartgun system would.

So...Johnson is a bug...do I squish it or do I pray it doesn't try to assimilate me?

>>46634780
>he doesn't have an internal router

>>46634957
>Anything is a bug
>ever
Anon, let me introduce you to my friend, Chunky Salsa.

Hey, /srg/.

How the fuck do I get guns to work with mags on Chum5? This shit is confusing as fuck.

>>46634891
And if it's one of the local gangers or low level mafia types steppin' on up, they're already dead. Taking out the gun is just a way to get that across without actually killing or directly harming 'em.

And don't forget to add Sleaze to your commlink and then upgrade it. Might as well have the option to have everything hid with a few extra dice if you're in an area where being seen (physically or matrix) isn't something you want.

>>46634973
>Wasting 0.7 Essence when you could just by a DR6 commlink/turn everything off when your decker finds another decker

>>46634983
Remember to leave enough identifiable chunks to claim the reward.

>>46634957
Kill it with fire and extreme prejudice. But, and I insist, this is really important:

Get hard, irrefutable evidence it's a goddamn bug.

Otherwise, you will get heat for plugging your Johnson, which is a definitive no-no unless he crosses you first. (And yes, being a motherfucking Bug counts. Luckily.)

>>46634877
B-but MPs aren't cool looking when quickdrawn...

>>46634891
>>46634973
If they are not running their device on wireless the for one reason or the other point is mute.

If they are than R6 commlink is unhelpful against a skilled decker.

Most competent deckers throw ~15 dice due to having deal with hosts and other nastiness that you really dont want to fail sleaze roll against. Not every one has cybercombat to dataspike your gun but its a safe assumtion that thos who do have at least 15 dice in it. 15v9(R6+3Wil) is 2 net, to birick a gun you need ~9 damage. 8DV deck is trivial to build.

>>46634985
In career mode you select the gun, look for the reload button, and then select ammo and quantity.

If you are talking about the spare clips you have to buy each clip separately but you cannot choose which ammo is each clip.

>>46635124
15 v 12. Don't forget Full Matrix Defense. Or the possibility that the owner mark/PAN owner is somebody with more will.

Also, tiny, tiny chance of having a higher device rating than Will.

>>46635086
Go for the Warhawk, draw the largest revolver in the Sixth World and ask a punk if they're feeling lucky in that case. Less options but more cool.

>>46632791
The only relatively "good" instect spirits are mantids. They are basically the apex predators of the bug spirit pecking order. They reproduce by nomming the spirit energy of other bug spirits.

>>46635225
If I were to use that monster as my standard gun, then the SHTF gun must be insane.
I'll keep the Streetline though. Sure, it's not that great but it's super sneaky and honestly I have a bit of a soft spot for tiny guns. I know, funny coming from the guy who bashed MPs, but that's just my opinion.

>>46635124
>Most competent deckers throw ~15 dice
Most competent PC Deckers, not every spider is going to have 6 LOG + 6 Hacking + Specialisation + Codeslinger + Reflex Recorder

>>46635222
FMD is great, but thats 10 initiative, which is already good return on investment. Not sure if you are sarcastic about DR, but when attacking a gun DR of commlink doesn't come into play. Only Firewall and only for defense roll, not soak roll. Having high will is an option, but most people with high will don't focus on guns.

Anyway this is moving into a well defended gun territory, and yes, if you defend your gun decker will in fact need to take 2 turns to brick it, in which case you will have a chance to turn it off, and thats why you defend your guns.


>>46635365
Well, the conversation started with someone accusing bricking guns of being a bad option. So yeah I'm assuming PC / Prime NPC decker.

>>46635518
I was mostly being sarcastic about DR. But by the reading of PAN's example, if somehow you have a lower Will than the DR of the device, you can use that even if it's not unattended. (Note, possibly a bit of bad wording, but one that won't matter much. Why? Because in that case you're probably in bad enough shape that there's no helping.)

>>46635124
Not the same guy.

Doesnt the gun then get to resist the damage using Device rating+willpower again; (9 dice = average of 3 hits) so you would need a DV13 after successes to brick the gun. Thats now starting to get a bit tricky (9 before hammer, 8 before decription)

>>46635726
In addition a rating 6 comlink will have a matrix condition track of 10 boxes (8+(6/2)) which means you will need a higher DV.

>>46635852
Which helps if somebody decides to take out the commlink. Not so much for the gun.

>>46635700
>>46635726

When you are attacking a gun you use DR of the gun, not DR of the guns master. Dr of smartgun in example given in CRB is 2. Lets roll with that assumtion, because I can't quicly find where actual smartgun DR is.


This is how attacking a gun looks like to the best of my knowledge. For the sake of argument lets say WIL3 guy with DR 6 commlink:

Decker rolls his ~15 dice against 3 Wil(or smartgun's DR which is 2)+ 6 Master's firewall(or 2 of its own). Averages 2 net.
Then gun soaks DV+2 damage.
It soaks with 3Wil(or 2 DR)+ 2 Firewall, note that at this point we have already past the masters assistance, this is device dealing with its own issues(Whenever a slaved device is called on to make a defense test. CRB233 Note lack of any mention of damage resistance tests). this averages 1.6 hits.

It has 9 boxes, you'd need 9 DV deck. I was off by .66 in my ballparking. Sorry. 9 DV deck is still not hard to get.

>>46635990
Like I said, mostly being sarcastic about the DR thing, because if you are a will 1 person, you probably have bigger issues than what happens if somebody tries to hack your gun.

The better way for that poor sap to defend his stuff is (and this assumes trust in person number 2) take the rough minute to give the device's owner mark to the group's decker (for most often Full Matrix Defense and good will) or mage (probably around or above the decker in Will, less likely to have the initiative to spare for a FMD).

Hey guys

What are some things you'd implement securitywise in a police (SternSchutz) HQ?

My runners need to erase some incriminating data before Tamanous gets its nose into that and they wake up without kidneys.

I thought of tight physical and excellent magical security (because of their specialised thaumaturgical team).

I'd want my runners to call in every favor they're owed to complete this thing.

>>46636143
Yeahm Wil 1 sounds like a bigger issue, hehe. And I'm not saying you can't defend against a decker. All I'm saying that bricking guns is a decent option.
>>46636147
Watchers, mana barrier inside the walls alarm wards on crucial areas, couple summoners performing attack from astral if they get caught. 2 htr teams with at least 1 mage each on 1 minute call. A fuck off good host with couple spiders on duty. Couple riggers jumped in drones/cars depending on when they get involved. Maglocks everywhere, Fuckoff sensor arrays in security areas.

I could go on and on... All of the above assumes you want to make their life miserable and they are expirienced plyers with prime PCs. Please don't throw this shit at people who are new.

/tg/, I have a question. It's been a little while since I've dug into the rules, and I'm looking for a bit of outside opinion. How viable are technomancer riggers when going down the sprite control path, and how do they scale in comparison with regular Riggers?

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>Stoner-Ares M202

>>46636392
Oh, and I forgot the silliest thing to do for defense. (In part because I'm making it silly. The underlying principle holds.)

A year's worth of soda cans, so your decker or other hardware person can upgrade everything's Firewall.

>>46636415
I never tried to build techno rigger. But I suspect it to not be a very good idea. Reason I'm saying that is persona rules. You can only have 1 persona at a time. Your living persona needs to be active to use techno stuff. Your rig persona needs to be active to jump in. There for at any given point it will be one or the other.

There may be some way to run both (or run one from inside the other so to speak). But I don't know of one.

>>46636147
Alright, you can go one of two ways with this.

One? Go to the grills with security. CCTV, multiple riggers and deckers, armed response team, security drones.

Two? Lighter security than expected. Who the fuck would raid a police HQ?

>>46636630
Just set up the Machine Sprite's Diagnostics ahead of time and assign tasks to your RCC persona at that time.

Oh, and don't drop below Res 3/4.

Hey fellas.

How to I make a run?
I ask because my group mostly plays Pathfinder, and I'm learning 5e to teach them, but they're used to a more railroady game style. From what I understand, that doesn't fly in Shadowrun, so I was thinking I could start giving them missions that work like runs in a system they know to get them used to the idea of it.
So how do?

>>46636630
>>46636647

That's pretty solid advice from the two of you. I was also wondering on the GM side of things, good sources for possible tabletop miniatures and props, to accentuate the experience.

>>46637078
I have never played shadowrun with Minis, but pogs with player character faces and important npcs is a good idea.

>>46636946

If you want to railroad them early on, have a fixer do most of the initial legwork for them.

Once they get a bit more experience, you can take that crutch away from them.

For example:
The job is to steal a prototype boondoggle. The fixer (or the Johnson) provides them with the blueprints, keycards, and a basic plan of attack.

That run goes smoothly.

Next run, they get the plan, but a complication forces them to think for themselves during the mission. Make it obvious that if they had looked into things, they would have known about the complication beforehand.

Also, run Food Fight. It's a classic for a reason.

>>46636946
Preface big money runs with one or two smaller info gathering runs so that they can see where to go. If anyone has an applicable contact let 'em pay to make it easier or even just straight succeed at the info gathering. Depending on contract , sensitivity , money, and so on.

Let the players roll knowledge skills to get better routes, anticipate obsticles, and so forth.

For smaller runs, let'em get away with an info gathering scene at most, and even then only if they're trying to find extra pay or secrets and issues.

>>46637257


>For example: The job is to steal a prototype boondoggle. The fixer (or the Johnson) provides them with the blueprints, keycards, and a basic plan of attack.

My fucking group took a job like that, without me the face there because another player was a smug asshole so I left at the time before knocking him out. Came back to do that job and we sparked a fucking Triple A war and we all almost fucking died with no pay cause the Johnson was rouge.

can some one tell me technomancers cant be otakus? or reference me to the book.

>>46637547
Otaku were basically proto-technomancers. There's a Data Trails quality that let you resist fading better because you were an otaku that rolled over, so to speak.

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>>46632841
The big things so far are the Boston Lockdown/CFD and the Megacorporate Revision, which means you'd need to go Lockdown then Market Panic to get the big picture. There's bits scattered elsewhere mentioning both events, but those two are the 'core fluff' that covers them in detail.

>>46637602
so what is it about technomancers that prevents them from being otakus? is it just the time line of dues being off the net and the emergence of technomacers? is there a big difference between the two stat wise?

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>>46635307
They still take over your body and turn you into a serial killer, they just tend to target other bug hosts (but have no problem killing regular metahumans if it's convenient).

Mantis spirits aren't 'good' or even 'less evil'. They're like the Terminator- they don't care one way or another if murdering a station full of cops, or any number of civilians, is the most efficient way to get what they want.

>>46637667
The full version will have to wait until I'm not stuck in a line, but the short version is that the otaku were the predecessor to the technomancers. Just as you can't be a junior and a senior at the same time a Techno can't be a techno and an otaku. Many went from otaku to techno, though, like going from junior to senior.

>>46637667
Okay out of line, more stuff. Now, a lot of otaku stuff was when I was a player and not a GM, so my knowledge isn't too great.

Now ignoring edition stuff (because then I'd have to get into how you bought decks and upgrades in earlier editions) a modern day otaku would have a living persona and eventually learn programs and upgrades through initations, and that's about it.

They were presented as technomancer predecessors in several ways, but mechanical differences make things a lot different.

>>46638214
is it possible to make an otaku character in chummer? also any source books i should look through? reading unwired now. were play 4th if that helps.

>>46638266
By 4e's time, any otaku had become a Technomancer or lost their powers. By being a Technomancer, you're basically an otaku with sprites and threading.

>>46638266
Otaku were all from the pre wireless age and required a datajack and an ASIST attachment to actually do anything in the Matrix. They were also really young, like little children to early twenties, and lost their powers after a certain age.

>>46638357
thanks guys, so could i make a techomnacer that used to be an otaku and is searching for to find the resonance again?

>>46638391
Pretty much. Might want to put some other 'ware in, just so that the datajack's not alone, and the essence loss has something done with it.

Is there anything stopping me from loading a magazine with a 50/50 spread of gel/stick and shock rounds?
Or would it just be mechanically awful to have to keep track of how every other one of my shots is a different ammo?

>>46638523
In 4e you can. In 5e - no.

>>46638523
Why would you not just get two seperate magazines?

>>46638597
In part for mechanical reasons. But if you have a cylinder or drum, you can put in the Ammo Skip System and switch between two types with a simple or free (wireless bonus) action.

And in that case, go for an extended clip, rating 2.

>>46638599
I don't want to have to swap my magazine every shot to gain the "kocked on your ass and also shot with a tazer" effect.

>>46638674
As an aside, while it should be possible for a clip or cylinder (read mostly revolvers), it could involve extra book keeping that the GM might not want to have happen, and also makes any kind of burst fire insane if you didn't plan around constantly burst firing.

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Everyone and their grandmother loves Ares Alpha, but what do you think about Colt Inception?
To me it seems like a really great gun that doesn't get enough respect.

Also it's super cool. I mean, look at the damn thing!

>>46639143
I'll make the joke ahead of time. We need to go deeper.

Or more specifically, where was it at?

>>46639164
Gun H(e)aven 3 pg.14

>>46639164
>>46639179
http://adragon202.no-ip.org/Shadowrun/index.php/SR5:Weapons:Assault_Rifle#Colt_Inception

>>46639179
I think that the reason that Inception don't get more respect is because it's in GH3.

>>46639143

It's definitely solid, especially for someone who can actually hit its stupidly high accuracy.

The downsides: it's not full-auto and it's weaker than the alternatives in both AP and Damage.

It's certainly not bad, just not the best. The FN HAR is 1000 nuyen cheaper and has better AP, full-auto, and more recoil compensation (though the Inception has a higher RC max when modded).

Does it give detail on wimps and biodrones in the books somewhere?
I want to figure out if a drone with a wimp brain is worth the cost.

>>46639313
Colt Agent Special gets some love from time to time and that too is from GH3

>>46639313
>>46639364

The Remington Suppressor is my favorite Machine Pistol, and that's also in GH3.

To be fair, it really plays more like a Heavy Pistol in practice.

>>46639364
Which means that if the Inception is good (and we've got at least one guy whose analysis leans that way) then it needs to join the others in being lifted out of GH3 and into the light.

I'm thinking of GMing Shadowrun for a group of my friends because they are all interested in the setting, what edition should I use? Except for one member they have all played some type of Tabletop RPG, and one has played Shadowrun before but doesn't remember the edition.

>>46639313
Hey, I almost exclusively use a garand for my runner.

>>46639640
Fourth or Fifth, unless that person that's played before still has lots of skill with the system.

>>46639719
Any major difference between the two?

>>46639423

I think it only gets good once you hit ~30+ dice. Before then, it's not even better than an AK, much less the venerable Alpha.

Once you get into the upper ranges of skill and start hitting the Accuracy limits, you'll be able to inch more damage out of the Inception (and that other GH3 gun, the Kreigfaust) than most of the other Assault Rifles.

>>46639710

Damn, the Garand is actually pretty sweet.

The M1A seems a little better, but the Garand is definitely solid.

>>46639760
On 30+ dice you can safely split dicepool to hit two or more targets. Personally, I think accuracy higher than 5 is marketing bullshit anyway.

>>46639859
Biggest downside is that it, the garand, can't have an internal smartgun system if I am understanding the vintage rules correctly

>>46639860
>two or more targets

There are definitely times when that's either not an option or not the right option.

Sure, you don't need 10 Accuracy very often, but there are situations where it comes in handy.

>>46639405

All weapons play like each other, which is another reason to just merge the skill and be done with it.

>>46639860
>>On 30+ dice you can safely split dicepool to hit two or more targets.

Or split the dicepool to hit the same target twice.

>>46641034
Rules are really inconsistent on that subject (multiple attacks vs multiple targets) and cgl never answered what they actually mean.

>love shadowrun ever since playing the SNES game as a kid
>rules are always plumbfuck retarded whenever I try to use the actual books
I just don't understand.

>>46640996
Go play the earlier editions where you could grab one Gun skill and one Melee skill and use that one to default on different weapons.

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So what kind of metaplane is it when a Sedhim possessing the body of a troll attempts to open up an astral gate, but crit glitches and instead pops out a giant green dragon claw that drags the bastard in and calls my Phys. Adept 'son'?

>>46641103

For melee weapons it makes sense, if you're cleaving through multiple opponents with a single cleave. That doesn't apply to firearms though.

The rules for guns is downright retarded in SR5, they encourage wild spraying which is hilariously ineffective in real life.

>>46641143

No need, you can just houserule that.

>>46641143
Skull substitution exists.

Am I misremembering that, in fifth edition, you could use a skill that was similar to a different one in place of the other skill at a penalty?

>>46639328
They're not super great; you're mostly looking for 4e Augmentation and stirrup interfaces.
>>46641034
Not in 5th you can't. Splitting the dicepool has to affect multiple targets. I mean more power to you if the GM allows it, but it's not RAW.

>>46641142

Lots of games with great settings have terrible mechanics. That's pretty much standard, sadly, because they keep getting away with it.

Shadowrun had a chance at changing that with 4E, but Catalyst turned out to be the villains all along.

This is what GURPS is for. It does Shadowrun so much better than the actual rules, it's hilarious.

>>46641214
wait, you sure it has to be multiple targets?
pg #?

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>>46641236

>>46641214
>Splitting the dicepool has to affect multiple targets
For certain attacks it is explicit, others are vague, and on at least one "multiple attacks, multiple targets" is directly contradicted.

>>46641236

>Shadowrun with GURPS
Alright, consider my interest piqued. Anyone done a sheet on it or something? I'm completely new to GURPS, but Shadowrun rules are at times so pantsu on head retarded that I wouldn't mind having to learn the GURPS rules.

>>46633886
>F18
If it were Manabolt, an F1 Edged one woul make more sense due to Limit removal.

>>46641254
Multiple Attacks action, p. 164 of core.
>A character may use a Free Action to attack multiple targets in a single action (see Multiple Attacks, p. 196) by splitting their dice pool.
In the absence of any other rules text to say otherwise, RAW says multiple targets. If your GM wants to allow you to use those attacks on the same target then more power to you.

>>46641347
It really isn't. Shadowrun rules are tightly connected with its lore. If you just want generic cyperpunk with magic - no problem. If you want to make Shadowrun you have to homebrew tons of stuff.

>>46641616

Damn, I was afraid of that.

Why can't game makers make actually good rules for their settings?

>>46641371
Now quote from p165-7.

>>46641742
They all reference adding the Multiple Attacks Free Action, which is what I already quoted. Multiple Attacks says multiple targets, all other actions say staple the Multiple Attacks action on top of their other rules.

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>>46640996
You know, Merge-All-Guns-Into-One-Skill-Anon, it's because of you that I can't wait for Anarchy to come out. I'm torn between them doing the merger and granting you your heart's desire, and them not merging the skills and seeing you get very angry in about 4 months.

>>46642432

I'm not actually angry about it, I just think it's completely retarded, just like burst- and full auto fire actions.

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>>46642465

What do you have against burst and full auto?

Unless you're arguing for extra damage rather than the dodge penalties, I'm not sure what the problem is.

Can't fault you for posting guns-as-one-skill all the time, I'm the guy that keeps posting cyber-catgirls

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>>46641197
Yes you can; Skill Substitution, pg 130 core. Most useful for turning active skills into knowledge ones, but you can switch one active into another if the GM allows it, and probably with a penalty.

>>46642535

Extra damage with a hefty accuracy penalty to make it less attractive an option. Cyclic fire seems so straight from a bad 80's hollywood flick. I want clean and surgical fire, but the rules seem to encourage spraying wildly all over the place.

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Yo what do you guys think of Martial Arts? Which ones are wiz and which ones are drek? Are they useful or just confusing?

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>>46642584

Depending on your recoil compensation and your target's defense pool, Full Auto can deal extra damage by just adding net hits.

If you can control your recoil (RC 10 for full-auto, 6 for Long Burst, etc.) you don't actually take a penalty to hit, and your opponent is much less likely to lessen the damage. Full auto reduces a defense pool by 9, which averages to 3 extra damage.

I'm planning a mage who follows the /k/ubic tradition, could someone help me design the guy? Never played a mage before.

>>46642647

But that's exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish. Full auto and burst should be extremely situational.

>>46642647

Oh and by the way, Galil is a fox, and she's firing in semi-auto.

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>>46642673
>>46642689

I fail to see what you're saying. Full auto is situational - it tears through your magazine, isn't necessary for most situations, most people find it uncontrollable without specialized hardware - but it can give you extra damage. This is all represented in-system with the recoil rules and end result of applying all the penalties.

And I know about Galil, I just don't give a fuck.

>>46642604

Some are pretty good. Sweep and Finishing Move are my personal favorites. Definitely useful for making an Unarmed character that does more than say "I run up and punch him" like a 3.5 monk.

>>46642651

I'd just use the Chaos Magic tradition and take a /k/ube-like Mentor Spirit (which are very open to refluffing). Berserker, Dragonslayer, Shark, Wise Warrior, even Adversary might be good to represent an aspect of Nex Alea.

>>46642871

>I fail to see what you're saying. Full auto is situational - it tears through your magazine, isn't necessary for most situations, most people find it uncontrollable without specialized hardware - but it can give you extra damage. This is all represented in-system with the recoil rules and end result of applying all the penalties.

Most people have enough recoil compensation to negate any penalties from firing in burst mode. And with a magazine capacity of 42(for the Alpha), the downside really isn't there.

From a mechanical standpoint, if your weapon is capable of burst and you're not using it, you're gimping yourself. And that's what I find so annoying.

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>>46642925
But doesn't that make sense? If a modern army were given guns that had large magazines and systems that minimized recoil, would they not be encouraged to fire in bursts instead of single shots to be more deadly? Better to shoot a man with 3 bullets than one, and if it doesn't hinder your next shot there doesn't seem to be a reason to me why you wouldn't use 3.

>>46642991

No it doesn't. Modern rifles have 30 round magazines, and you can keep them on the target at close ranges. People still don't teach it, and soldiers still don't use it. It's better to always reliably put the rounds where you want them and nowhere else.

Even with submachine guns and PDWs with their 50 round magazines everyone exclusively uses semi-auto.

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>>46642925

Simple Action Burst Fire (3 round burst) hardly does anything though. A -2 Defense penalty at the expense of running through your magazine 3 times faster does not mean you're gimping yourself for not using it. It averages to less than 1 DV per shot. But yes, most people can control a gun on 3 shot burst.

Long Bursts require either troll strength or a controllable gun to not take recoil penalties. They're also a Complex Action, which means you're not using a Take Aim action that turn. Once again, not using this is definitely not "gimping yourself."

Simple Action Full-Auto might be what you actually have issue with. It still requires either a strong shooter or specialized mods to negate the penalty, but controlled Simple Action full-auto is still less than 2 extra DV, while it burns through mags 6 times faster than single-shot.

And I don't think the Ares Alpha should be brought into the discussion. It's the Rolls-Royce of Assault Rifles, with 2 recoil compensation before mods and a larger than average magazine size. Of course Full-Auto is good with the Alpha. Everything is good with the Alpha.

This message brought to you by Ares!

So anyone got a picture of the AAA corp scores on what services they provide and their security

>>46643069
>Simple Action Burst Fire (3 round burst) hardly does anything though. A -2 Defense penalty at the expense of running through your magazine 3 times faster does not mean you're gimping yourself for not using it. It averages to less than 1 DV per shot. But yes, most people can control a gun on 3 shot burst.

With a smartlink reloading isn't a problem, and I've rarely been in a fight that lasted long than one magazine, and if I have it never ended well for me.

And the problem I have is that burst never really increases your chances to hit in any way. If you want hits, you fire semi-auto I do practical shooting, I know what I'm talking aobut. If you need to absolutely waste a guy in the least amount of time, honestly, you still use semi-auto to put those rounds squarely in centre-mass and not somewhere near it.
>And I don't think the Ares Alpha should be brought into the discussion. It's the Rolls-Royce of Assault Rifles, with 2 recoil compensation before mods and a larger than average magazine size. Of course Full-Auto is good with the Alpha. Everything is good with the Alpha.

I'd rather have the Raiden. Well, I would if it had semi-auto firemode.

>>46643138
>burst never really increases your chances to hit in any way
Um? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur6PTtSe4H8 It's spreading like a madmen that doesn't help.

>>46643214

A great example. If you look closely when he fires, it's mostly the first round that gets the bottle, and the total time would probably have been faster if he had aimed and dropped them with the first round.

>>46643263

Right, but those are stationary targets. Same as in practical shooting.

You know what isn't stationary?

That Street Sam with Reakt, Jazz, and Wired Reflexes.

You know what's going to help hit him?

Putting more lead downrange.

>>46643306
>Right, but those are stationary targets. Same as in practical shooting.

Except that there are loads of moving target in properly set up stages.

>That Street Sam with Reakt, Jazz, and Wired Reflexes.

Sure, but if you shoot at him faster you're just going to miss faster. And all the boosts can be canceled out, making the point moot.

>You know what's going to help hit him?
>Putting more lead downrange.

Yes, aimed and controlled lead.

>>46643333
Nice quads

Also, you seem to be missing what the other guys are saying to you

>>46643354

>Also, you seem to be missing what the other guys are saying to you
As much as others are missing the facts I guess.

>>46643333
>>46643365

Let me try to make it more clear.

Even moving targets on a range aren't reacting to what you're doing. They're moving in set patterns, right? They're not intentionally dodging out of your sightline, and they're not sprinting towards you in serpentine patterns.

Note that in SR5, automatic fire does not help you hit stationary targets, nor does it help you against targets that aren't actively trying to avoid your bullets.

It does, however, incur recoil penalties that may negatively impact your aim against a stationary target.

Controlled bursts (ie, Take Aim into Simple Action short bursts or auto bursts) have little impact on your accuracy, but are harder to dodge and are more likely to deal additional damage assuming you have full control over the gun.

Single shots will impose no penalties (unless you're not recentering on target in-between shots) and use less ammo.

This seems like a pretty close representation to me. The numbers might not add up to exactly how you'd like them. Feel free to adjust how strong recoil is (maybe 2 per bullet? Or halve the impact of recoil compensation?) and maybe you'll get something you feel is more "realistic" or more in line with your experience.

>>46636415
Unless your GM drowns you in Nuyen, terrible.

>>46639143
>No FA.

There's your problem.

>>46643441
>Even moving targets on a range aren't reacting to what you're doing. They're moving in set patterns, right? They're not intentionally dodging out of your sightline, and they're not sprinting towards you in serpentine patterns.

More or less yeah, although some of the poppers do move in slightly erratic ways, so it's not completely unrealistic. And you can use a system that randomly presents you target and makes them move in completely unpredictable ways. I admit I'm not rich enough to buy some of those, though.

And people dodging do actually move in set patterns, since it's faster to move in one direction than move, stop, and move again. You can't dodge a bullet, but you can move where he isn't shooting. And if you manage to not get hit by the first one, the guy firing full auto/burst is doing the work for you by making it more likely he isn't tracking his work through his sights and reacquiring you and firing again.

Jesus, could you autists fuck off back to /k/? It's a world where elves, orks, magic... exist and USA balkanized so the natives could be back in power, for fuck's sake. Realism never had the slightest part in it.

>>46643587

>You can't dodge a bullet

This is Shadowrun. A dodge-monster with 18 defense dice absolutely can dodge a bullet. He is literally superhuman.

Current limitations do not apply.

>>46643644

>This is Shadowrun.
But the rules in Shadowrun actually do represent that by having the roll be int+rea, not agi+rea.

>>46643644
You don't dodge bullets, you dodge the aim. Tactical dodging is an actual thing taught in most combat shooting courses. All these people always saying that using dodge dodges the bullet... No, you can't do that, bullets move supersonic and humans can not, in addition to having an average of a 0.17 second delay (0.25 for visual) in reaction time.

BUT, you can dodge where someone is aiming. Make yourself a hard target. No one in a firefight stands still, that would make you the easiest target in the world and you'd die in an instant.

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>>46643665

And you can add AGI to the roll with -10 init and a 3 point Quality.

Do you have a proposal for representing firearms better? Because all I've heard from you on that is "merge them all into one skill."

And from my firearms experience, I'd rather see some distinction. I'd probably split them between Handguns, Longarms, and Heavy Weapons.

>>46643640
>you autists

I've become what I hate, haven't I?

>>46641821
Each entry refers to MAA in specific terms. Which is to say you have to take the general rules of multiple attacks, and filter them through the specific rules of semi-automatic burst, burst fire, full auto, and thrown weapons.

Or house rule it.

>>46643746
>And you can add AGI to the roll with -10 init and a 3 point Quality.

Yes, you react to the weapon being pointed (REA), then you figure where he isn't going to hit (INT) and then you skillfully move out of the way (AGI). You aren't actually reacting to the gunshot, you're reacting to the gun being pointed at you.

>Do you have a proposal for representing firearms better? Because all I've heard from you on that is "merge them all into one skill."

Mostly because firearm fundamentals stay the same regardless of what weapon you use. Using a pistol is actually hardest of all of the firearms, as you have less contact points, the sight radius is short, making precise shot hard, and all the mistakes you make in the trigger pull are magnified due to the lack of weight and contact points.

Also there is a lot of overlap in the weapons themselves. You can add a stock to a pistol with burst fire mode and use it with pistol skill even though it's practically an SMG at that point (and thus should be used with Automatics, per RAW). And the differences between a semi-automatic precision rifle such as the EBR and Assault rifles are really minute. Hell, the EBR is even capable of burst fire, making it an assault rifle by definition (dependant on calibre, but still).

And perhaps most of all, you're probably going to use a single weapon through the entire game, so spending points on different skills is a really bad choice optimisation-wise. And even if the skills were merged, you'd still be specialised in only one specific type, so you'd probably stick to using that for the 2 dice bonus, but you wouldn't be at a complete loss if you suddenly had to pick up something else.

>>46643746
I'd like to see firearms brought down to small arms, long arms, and heavy weapons, while close combat changes to low tech with archery, melee, and thrown.

>>46639143
Actually, I'm more interested in the Ultimax Rain Forest from the same book. Sure, it's SA-only, but it has near-Barrett-level accuracy and damage.

With mods (smartgun, suppressor, concealability), it could serve as a baby sniper rifle.

Is there any ability that gives you maximum good and bad luck?

I want to play a character who is very "lucky", but not exclusively in good ways.

>>46643950
There's an errata somewhere that nerfs it iirc.

>>46643640
>Political realism correlating to physical realism
Get fucked

>>46643861

>Yes, you react to the weapon being pointed (REA), then you figure where he isn't going to hit (INT) and then you skillfully move out of the way (AGI). You aren't actually reacting to the gunshot, you're reacting to the gun being pointed at you.

Okay, so when the shooter isn't in complete control of his gun (Because of Burst-Fire or Full-Auto), you're going to have a harder time dodging. Right? There are more bullets, and less time to figure out where the shooter is aiming next. This is why Burst-Fire works the way it does in Shadowrun. The SR5 abstraction fits with the bulk of the assumptions you've laid out. It seems to me that you're still just stuck in "automatic fire should be bad because it's totally not useful in real life EVER." It has a place, please just acknowledge that.

>>46643950

Check the Missions FAQ. The Rain Forest Carbine in GH3 is not what it's supposed to be.

>>46643959

Play a human. Take the Lucky Quality to get the maximum 8 Edge. Take the Bad Luck Quality so that when you use your Edge, you have to roll to see if it has the opposite effect.

>>46643861
>>46643923
Sidearms, classifying weapons that can be used effectively with one hand (Handguns, some SMGs).
Longarms, classifying weapons that require two hands to use effectively.
Grenade Launcher, classifying grenade launchers and unguided rockets.
Heavy Weapons, classifying the use of assault cannons and HMGs

For close range combat:
Unarmed Martial Arts, classifying the act of punching and kicking (As an example, brass knuckles would fall in to this category)
Arms Martial Arts, classifying any sort of melee weapon that does not rely on the motions of punching or kicking.

Throwing is tossed in to athletics (There's a general skill for that, yes?) and archery remains its own.

>>46644016
Contrary to what he's saying, automatic fire is VERY good when 1; You can control it, and 2: You're in a close quarters situation. Even outside of that, most automatic weapons can fire four or so shots before recoil actually becomes a problem at longer ranges.

Automatic weapons are fairly horrifying, considering one bullet will easily kill you, when more will kill you even better. In a close quarters situation where your target is a lot easier to keep an aim on, and you're at least trained to some degree, automatic weapons are effective. Anyone who says the only reason they exist is for suppressive fire is an absolute idiot.

>>46643988
This.

>>46644016
question.
Do you still expend the edge if the roll has the opposite effect?

>>46644016
>Check the Missions FAQ. The Rain Forest Carbine in GH3 is not what it's supposed to be.
That's not official errata

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1B, 486x500px

Currently working on a mage vatjob. Thoughts/criticisms? Feels both stronger and less cheese than a mysad.

>>46644016

>Okay, so when the shooter isn't in complete control of his gun (Because of Burst-Fire or Full-Auto), you're going to have a harder time dodging. Right? There are more bullets, and less time to figure out where the shooter is aiming next.
Moving straight away from the line of fire as fast as you can is the only defense you can make when being shot at, and your opponent would still be shooting at where you were a thought aog. But I'll do you a favour shut up about it.

>It seems to me that you're still just stuck in "automatic fire should be bad because it's totally not useful in real life EVER." It has a place, please just acknowledge that.

No no, I know there's a time and place for cyclic fire. It's when you get jumped on and need to suppress to get a momentary advantage to haul ass.

>>46644049

That is slightly better, but I hope you understand that you suddenly don't become unable to use a pistol when you add a stock to it, even if you haven't fired a rifle in your life.

The reverse is not admittedly true, it is hard to hit with a pistol if you've shot rifles all your life.

I won't touch on heavy weapons, because a lot of them are really unique in the way they're operated and thus have little overlap with other skills. But your suggestion of merging the blunt and blade skills is a good one, and I can happily say that since I've suggested it before myself.

>>46644126
Yes.

>>46644172
I see.
Well, that works.
Unrelated, but is it just me or does code of honor make every NPC in the protected group way easier to kill?

>>46644092

I know, right? Many early handheld automatics (like the Tommy Gun) were designed for the close-quarters trench warfare of WW1.

>>46644126

Yeah, but once it happens, you no longer need to roll for "bad luck" for the rest of the session.

Bad luck triggers when you roll a 1 on a d6.

As for another way you could have maximum bad luck, the Borrowed Time quality has your GM roll at the start of each session to determine if your character will suddenly die at the most dramatically appropriate point.

>>46643988
Sperg harder.

>>46644164
>That is slightly better, but I hope you understand that you suddenly don't become unable to use a pistol when you add a stock to it, even if you haven't fired a rifle in your life.
>The reverse is not admittedly true, it is hard to hit with a pistol if you've shot rifles all your life.
It is not problem of skill separation, it's problem of Shadowrun not having consistent rules for skill substituting like GURPS does, for example.
Also, you can't effectively use sword if you were only trained with blunt weapons and never cared about edge alignment.

>>46644194
>borrowed time AND bad luck
I want to do this so bad but all the other players will hate me

>>46644164
> but I hope you understand that you suddenly don't become unable to use a pistol when you add a stock to it, even if you haven't fired a rifle in your life.
Yes, certainly. Any modifications made to a weapon, unless fundamentally changing it, does not cause it to classify as something else. A stock on a handgun does fine, but extending it in to a carbine does not.

I would also suggest that, akin to GURPS, skills can default. Say any smallarms skill can default to the other at one half its value. You understand how to use firearms, but that specific sort you're unfamiliar with.

Heavy weapons was a bit of a copout, because if you wanted it to be realistic, you'd need tonnes of very specialized skills for it.

Also arms martial arts should be ARMED martial arts, my bad.

>>46644194
There's a reason why automatic weapons are issued to many SWAT teams and other sort of CQB-expecting troops. Though, I will say, it's generally a bad idea to give an unskilled man an automatic weapon. But in the right hands, they're deadly little things.

>>46644132
They've flat not released errata since street grimoire. Not taking a direct "we fucked up, here's different stats" at face value is a particular kind of special.

>>46644213

To be fair, a lot of blunt weapons do have a specific part you use for hitting. And at least batons are used in a way that's fairly similar to blades; the part you're going to hit with is aligned with your bones, exactly the same way you'd swing a sword.

>>46644213
Shadowrun lets the GM decide rather than give a hard list of what can be substitued for what. But it can definitely be done.

>>46643988
It's a valid point to say SR doesn't have a whole lot of realism on any level, from physical to political.

>>46644132

The as-written Rain Forest Carbine does more damage than the fucking (10F!) Desert Strike sniper rifle at 1/6th the price and 5R availability.

If you think that's fine and fair, then by all means go for it. I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be rivaling Assault Cannons by tossing explosive rounds in a sub 3000 nuyen carbine.

>>46644249
>>46644312
I'm not saying ignore it. I'm saying don't present it like official errata when it's not

>>46644312
on the one hand, I agree with you that assault cannons should do more damage.

On the other hand, I played turok 2 and explosive ammo is the ABSOLUTE SHIT HOLY CRAP IT KILLS EVERYTHING.

I am conflicted.

Question.
What, exactly, would distinctive style entail in a game where people already have pink mohawks and cyberclaws?

>>46644356
Anything distinctive that your character cannot or will not part with. Pink Mohawks are less common than you seem to think, while cyber claws are illegal, IIRC, making them fairly rare too.

>>46644356
Not 100% sure, but most people tend to not have those outside of the ghettoes.

>>46644356
...being the most mirrorshades fucker to ever live?
in all honesty, and i hate to say this, but black mohawk. Be punk, but be classical punk.

>>46644356
A detail that is striking enough that it can readily be remembered. Guy always wear a Musketeer's hat over his motorcycle helmet, for instance.

Do note that"crab pincer instead of hand" definitely counts.

>>46644405
What the hell is "mirrorshades" even? Is that just playing it like cybepunk?

>>46644407
does having two left hands count?

>>46644336

That's not to say that explosive rounds aren't amazeballs.

It's just that the RAW Rain Forest Carbine with Ex-Ex is literally stronger than some Assault Cannons.

Ex-Ex in an Ares Alpha is still 13P -3AP.
Ex-Ex in a high-power sniper rifle gets real stupid.


>>46644221

Fuck 'em. Take the 32 points of Negatives and laugh as you only get 25 karma in exchange.

>>46644356

Distinctive Style just means you're really memorable. Like having a neck tattoo that says "FUCK" in all caps. Or wearing a hot dog suit everywhere. Or, as is the case in my group, exclusively dressing like Han Solo.

It can easily represent being extremely attractive, like in the Glamour Metagenic Quality. Like when you walk into a place, you become that hottie that's reminisced about for the next three years.

It's something obvious, something memorable, and something you won't change.

>>46644412
Pure professional. if the secret service had a secret service kinda deal. Plans for everything, no witnesses, MIB grade secrecy.

>>46644412

Pretty much synonymous with Black Trenchcoat in the Black Trenchcoat/Pink Mohawk discussion.

>>46644417
Yeah, it would.

>>46644453
>>46644466
Well that doesn't make any sense. Stupid arbitrary naming conventions.

>>46644471

Yeah, I much prefer Black Trenchcoat as the terminology.

>>46644420
god damn it anon don't taunt me with wearing a hot dog suit at all times

I will never be able to do this in any group, and it makes me regret.

So, /srg/, check out this crazy idea.
You roll initiative as normal, but...
Every action has a cost, instead of just having turns. Free actions cost 1 initiative point, simple actions cost 5 initiative points, complex actions cost 10 initiative points. You start with the one at the highest initiative ranking, he does his action, then you check who has the highest initiative from there. If it's that guy, he goes again, if not, it's someone else.

If you want to get really tricky dicky, all the actions take effect at the end of the initiative cost. If you use a simple action to shoot someone, that action is resolved on whatever initiative ranking you would be at after you subtract 5 points.

How interesting/completely fucking horrid do you think that is, /srg/? Bonus points if anyone can tell where I got the inspiration for it from.

>>46644510
>Shooty guy gets to go multiple times before anyone else
No. Your idea is bad and you should feel bad.

>>46644466
>>46644471
>>46644486
I always think of mirrorshades being more pro side of things, black trench coat being more edgy.

>>46644527
Molly did it, why can't Fisty McBeefbunch; Shootist Extraordinaire?

>>46644527
I think you mean mage goes multiple times before everyone else.

>>46644510
>You start with the one at the highest initiative ranking, he does his action, then you check who has the highest initiative from there. If it's that guy, he goes again, if not, it's someone else.

No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! If you want to allow everyone to eke out more actions out of their initiative score, why not. But no need to force an even worse "Initiative tax" on everyone.

>>46644487

If I was running a game, I'd be all for it.

But I might require his runner handle to be Frank.

>>46644510

Seems too complicated to resolve quickly.

Has the problem where extremely fast characters get to perform multiple attacks before slower characters can act.

Also doesn't limit taking two shots at the same guy with two simple actions in a row. That's explicitly denied in the current system for balance reasons.

Makes melee significantly worse than shooting. 15 Initiative gets 3 attacks with a gun, while it only gets 1 melee attack.

No sir, I don't like it.

>>46644567
>frank
goddamnit why did I not think of that

Besides as much Edge as possible, what does Mr. Lucky actually need?

>>46644583
>>46644567
Frank is a street sam, right?

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>>46644565
>>46644567
Huh, I was basing it off of pic related, and it worked well enough there. Though maybe because it's meant to be a realistic portrayal of combat, and people don't expect it to be balanced.

I've always thought the system really fit the way I would picture combat in any sort of cyberpunk setting to be.

>>46644608
Good attributes and a truckload of skills.

>>46644608
like, any old Mr. Lucky, or the one I was just asking about who had good and bad luck?

>>46644608
i reckon you want to be good at something, rather than JUST relying on luck. figure it out.

>>46644618
Good to know

>>46644620
Any old Mr. Lucky, I guess. Your comment just reminded me about my own Mr. Lucky character.

>>46644625
Also good to know

>>46644510
>Bonus points if anyone can tell where I got the inspiration for it from.
You steal this idea from me when I posted it on shattered rpg forum. And I am pretty sure it's really old idea.
The problem with it is that it requires way more bookkeeping during combat. Especially for GM who have to track bunch of characters simultaneously.

>>46644608
Being a Decker.

>>46644583

I may have also accepted Oscar.

But I definitely like Frank better.

>>46644608

You can build Mr. Lucky as literally anything. Take high Edge, but then you pay the price and skimp on base attributes, resources (ie. ware), skills or Magic.

For maximum luck-manipulation, play an adept or Mystic Adept with the Adept Accident power. Throw your 7 or 8 edge dice into Adept Accident and force people to critical glitch their way into jammed guns, dud grenades, and other shenanigans.

For even more fun, be a Pacifist who just seems to never get hit or hurt. Blame peoples' misfortunes on bad karma.

>>46629111
>it just means your GM is going easy on you
I dunno, I personally prefer for my encounters to make sense in regards to the story as opposed to having foes just be super challenging for the sake of it.

If the average-joes of a corp or mob are running around in body armor heavy enough that you need AP rounds in one of my games, then you're fucking around with some serious motherfuckers, and realistically you shouldn't be taking jobs like that unless you are either acting towards a larger goal or you are REALLY confident in yourself as a crew.

Typically, unless you're playing soldiers or really professional runners fighting other soldiers or soldier-esque equipped foes, normal lethal ammunition will do fine--if your crew is deciding to go lethal at all.

>>46645019
>if your crew is deciding to go lethal at all.
Why would you ever not.

At what point does spending edge to have exploding dice actually become better than just rerolling failures? It seems on any test that you already have a good amount of dice in, the obvious answer is to reroll failures, as the dice added by edge is usually negligible, and the rerolling only happens on a 6.

>>46645031
because it's the difference between one star heat levels and five star heat levels?

>>46645064
>People in the dark future of the 21st century caring about murder
Come on, who do you think keeps the bodybanks in biz'?

>>46645031
Maybe you want to do the job but you don't want to "make a statement."

Maybe you want to do the job but don't want the families of the guys you might fight with crying out for your heads. Realistically speaking, a lot of corps won't go berserk going after you unless you REALLY put the hurt on them--a lot of Shadowrun operations are just a red mark on the monthly report, after all. No need to bring hurt on your head unnecessarily by killing people who probably don't deserve it.

Maybe you're actually roleplaying instead of rollplaying, where killing someone in a situation that isn't self-defense of a forced hand would twist with your heart just a little bit. Granted, not EVERY character will feel that way, but there are not a lot of people who can kill in cold blood and feel okay afterwards.

Honestly, if you can afford to do so and you don't think you'll really need to kill your way out of a situation, why go lethal at all? In my games cops default to nonlethal because that's the right thing to do and nonlethal options are almost universally better in science fiction--and in particular, in Shadowrun--and they will only switch to lethal if one of their own goes down or their foes are so heavily armored that the nonlethal weapons are having next to no effect.

>>46645069

The literal orders of magnitude more people that die from things that aren't murder?

Even the pinkest and mohawkest runner's bodycount could hide in the "random heart attack" stat of NYC, let alone a really packed city.

>>46645031
Because while people are rarely happy about receiving a can of non-lethal whupass, it's less publicised than the up-to-the-minute death stats. That means less awareness, notoriety, and less need for corpsec to uphold their image.

>>46645069
Anon corps sort of start to care if you rack up a big body count on them.
Their people have a worth, and it's not good policy to let someone repeatedly break your shit.
That and mr. johnson liked steve in accounting and has a shadowrunning expense account.

>>46645076
>Maybe you're actually roleplaying instead of rollplaying, where killing someone in a situation that isn't self-defense of a forced hand would twist with your heart just a little bit.
A vast majority of people in Shadowrun view murder as a social norm. The average person doesn't have any problem with splattering poor Johnny's brains from here to Chicago. You have a collapsed society where a majority of the population was brought in a violent area, in addition to bloodsports helping people get used to the sight and idea of people dying. Sure, some may be squeemish, but they'd almost be the minority, I would argue. It's a nihilistic millennium, chummer.

I'm not saying geek everyone, but going fully non-lethal just seems inane to me. And surely you won't be wasting entire factories worth of guards, considering most will surrender when about 25% of their fighting force has been killed with no casualties in the opposing side.

>>46645019
There's a middle way between "super challenging" and "minor nuisance".

>>46645088
I was making a joke, sorry if it didn't come across as sarcastic.

>>46645096
I'd be willing to bet that any given runner team, is incapable of even inflicting 1% of the casualties corporate security as a whole sustain throughout a month.

>>46645134
If the situation makes sense, then yeah, I try my best to find that.

Invading some shit-tier gangsters who frankly wouldn't have body-armor unless there was a good reason they would be able to afford it or have access to stealing it? It will likely be a cakewalk, and I'm probably using it to set up another aspect of the story.

Going into a corp where it would make sense that they'd have at least fair-to-middling body armor that would reliably keep them alive against things like pistols and carbines? It'll be a good fight. Would it make sense to have a mage there? If so, it's an important thing and probably plot related (or the players just got unlucky). I personally play up the cyber part of the cyberpunk, since the magic is supposed to be rare.

More than anything, I just like the encounters to make sense, not feel like some Pathfinder "well, it's an appropriately CR'd encounter, anon," thing. I hate that. Feels so artificial.

>>46645122
>You have a collapsed society where a majority of the population was brought in a violent area, in addition to bloodsports helping people get used to the sight and idea of people dying.
Most people are used to violence in the sense that they are desensitized to hearing about it, and want to avoid it happening near them. They're wageslaves living in corporate communities. Not nice areas, but the criminals are white collar, compared to the thugs and gangs in neighbourhoods bordering industrial zones.

Most sports are violent, too, but you have to head to the arenas of Aztlan to see real national blood sports.

>>46645143
Shadowrunners tend to have access to explosives. It'd be a shame not to collapse that building if Mr.J allows it...

>>46645060
When you have a lot of edge dice and not a lot of skill dice.

>>46645143
More like all the casualties of the month.

>>46645122
Desensitization is not the same as experience. It's difficult to explain. I'm desensitized to violence. Seeing it on TV doesn't bother me. Seeing /gif/s ISIS threads doesn't bother me as much as it used to. But walking in on the aftermath of my friend's suicide bothered me. A lot. Seeing it there was way different than seeing it through a screen. Granted, I haven't been in combat, but I have had a roommate who was. And he feels the same. It's just not the same. And I try to reflect that in the way people behave in-game.

If the cops can open up with nonlethal, why wouldn't they? If your crew thought it could get away with runs going nonlethal, frankly speaking why wouldn't you? What matters here is that you think you can.

I've never punished my players for going lethal. At least, not inappropriately. But you're going to have families clambering for your heads if you kill Johnny from Chicago. Stealing with nonlethal takedowns isn't as likely to have board members wanting your heads to save face as much as they would if you killed their men instead. People don't like death, no matter how bad the society gets. If it can be avoided, it should be avoided.

That being said, sometimes you can't avoid it. And some characters might not care to try. That's on them. But my group is pretty good about roleplaying, and the few characters I've personally seen that are fine with killing are typically quite well played--from a mechanical and most importantly, emotional, angle.

>>46645143
CorpSec is designed to work in whatever your universe is. Saying they take casualties as par of the course is stupid. Literally retard logic. If you're getting shot, you improve your setup until it works properly. Shadowrunners are always the worst case scenario. The average gangster isn't going to fight CorpSec, they're better trained and equipped and will make short work of any open fighting.

Shadowrunners vs the rest of the criminal scum is like comparing organised crime to Jonny the bank robber. Spoilers: Jonny never leaves the bank.

>>46645157
>A majority of people are living in corporate enclaves
I think not. There is no way any self-respecting cyberpunk setting would allow the middle class to be the largest population group. Hell, the entire premise of the genre's economic situation is based off of Reaganomics destroying the middle class. A majority of inhabitants of the 6th world are likely living in the low to street lifestyle categories.

And I'd call Urban Brawl and Desert Wars blood sports. The goal may not be outright murder, but murder is certainly involved. Also, the visual aspect would desensitize them to seeing it as well. The social norms have been torn to shreds and replaced with a nihilistic and arguably sociopathic template.

>>46645186
On the contrary, if you are raised in thinking that things such as death and murder are fine, then by god will you think they are fine. You can hammer out the inherent empathy stuffed inside our brains relatively easily.

Not to be a dick or anything, but you likely cared about your friend's suicide because it was your friend.

>If your crew thought it could get away with runs going nonlethal, frankly speaking why wouldn't you?
Well, if you want the hardass route, you could say that it leaves less witnesses, and is a bit cheaper and more effective/reliable for dealing with immediate threats. If you want the societal part, you could just not care. I'm sure no one would object to going nonlethal, but if someone suggested that everyone needs to buy sticky shockers to not kill people without giving a real good reason other than "Killing people is wrong," I can picture most people in the sixth world telling him to shove it.

>>46645220
You can't force sociopahtic behaviour on people. That's not how people work. Nihilism maybe, but not socipathic torture porn. Just because people on b post rekt gifs doesn't mean they're not all messed up nutcases, and you being able to look at them doesn't make it tolerable being broadcasted on TV

Yes bloodsports do exist in Shadowrun, but don't expect everyone to just like that fact. It's cyberpunk. The whole theme is that the rich are fucking the poor. The participants in those shows are the poor, being fucked by the rich.

>>46645220
>I can picture most people in the sixth world telling him to shove it.
I honestly just run a friendlier Shadowrun than you do, or you're used to. Granted, it's not all sunshine and hugs: there's godawful shit going on. But I feel there needs to be some common decency in the world for the real solid heart-wrenching shit to have an effect. Having your players go "meh," when something bad happens just feels wrong. It means, to me, that my world hasn't been fleshed out enough; that they're not having a human experience in it.

>You can hammer out the inherent empathy stuffed inside our brains relatively easily.
I must just disagree. I've spent two years living with a combat veteran. We've talked about our experiences; most of his were regarding war, as he signed up early. His own empathy has not been hammered out by his training, nor was it hammered out by the men he fought and the couple he thinks died at his hands (infantry combat can get chaotic. Unless you're in MOUT situations, it's difficult to tell who kills who). It's been my own personal experience and the experience of a man that has gone through some serious shit that you don't just turn emotions off, nor can you just browbeat them into being okay with murder.

>...but you likely cared about your friends suicide because it was your friend.
I feel something similar when I hear of anyone who's died. I'm desensitized, but like I said before you can't turn all of it off. I think I cared more so than usual because it was my friend, yes, but I also feel that most of my motivation was because I saw it. I was literally right there. His death effected me more so than the knowledge of the death of family that I wasn't there for. Being there, experiencing it and seeing someone who was once an entire world of dreams and emotions suddenly being nothing--just straight-up nothing--is very different than hearing about it or seeing it on screen.

>>46645213
Sprawlgangers outnumber corporate security a large amount of the time, and unless we're talking about corporate tactical teams, they're really no better trained than your average Joe Policedude.

And consider the fact that you have, say, one hundred thousand corporate security officers working globally. The five or so that a runner team would geek would likely make up a minority of casualties, counting in corporate warfare, the other shadowrunners doing things, gangers with automatic weapons, etc. Or, rather, what one team geeks. Maybe not the 1% like I stated before, but certainly not enough to make everyone on the board of directors jump up and yell "SHIT YO OUR DUDES ARE ALL DEAD." They'd be far more worried about whatever the purpose of the run was than the no-name guards that flatlined during it.

>>46645264
On the contrary, you really can raise someone to be a sociopath. It's actually not too difficult, at least from what various studies can tell us.

As for bloodsports, they equivalent to modern day sports in the Sixth World. They're just the norm. Sure, you have some people who don't like them, and some who just don't care, and some who love it, but it's become a societal norm that is widely accepted.

Also, I hate to correct you, but the people in Urban Brawl and Desert Wars are famous, a-la modern athletes. It's stated they're paid massive amounts of cash, and gather fan followings like any other athlete (That is, assuming they live that long.)

The theme isn't the rich fucking the poor. Corpzoners don't sit in their towers and think "Boy I want to fuck over those poor people." It's about an abuse of power, not for the purpose of fucking the poor, but for the purposes of green and even contrast in society. The poor are just as likely to commit some atrocity as any corporate, it's just the corps have the means to do things on a bigger scale.

>>46645264
>>46645220
to elaborate a bit, since blood sports is always inspired by Roman gladiator fights:

>Modern customs and institutions offer few useful parallels to the legal and social context of the gladiatoria munera[141] In Roman law, anyone condemned to the arena or the gladiator schools (damnati ad ludum) was a servus poenae (slave of the penalty), and was considered to be under sentence of death unless manumitted.[142] A rescript of Hadrian reminded magistrates that "those sentenced to the sword" should be despatched immediately "or at least within the year". Those sentenced to the ludi should not be discharged before five years or three years if awarded manumission.[143] On the one hand, only slaves found guilty of specific offences could be sentenced to the arena, and citizens were legally exempt from this sentence.

There is a very specific reason here that separates the gladiators from the audience, and a very pronounced reasoning given for why they fight to the death.

>>46645264
>You can't force sociopahtic behaviour on people. That's not how people work. Nihilism maybe, but not socipathic torture porn.
That's an interesting angle, because you CAN do exactly that with legal grade simsense. It's done with corp drones and their product selection all the time - desire for patent corp products, and aversion to colours, brands, names, etc of competing products.

>>46645312
Errant Knight is run as a PMC. All their Joe Policedudes are PMC, and trained as PMC

Lone Star officer are less trained, but they are far more likely to just shoot you for no reason because of that.

>>46645220
>I think not. There is no way any self-respecting cyberpunk setting would allow the middle class to be the largest population group.
I said enclaves, not arcologies. These are still shit holes, but they're corporate branded and corporate exclusive shit holes.

>I'd call Urban Brawl and Desert Wars blood sports. The goal may not be outright murder, but murder is certainly involved.
Desert Wars aside (afaik), murder is frowned upon in modern and future sports.

>>46645312
>globally
Why are you thinking that only the CEO is the only one making decisions? Every city has it's own district manager. Hell, large cities will have multiple. Those are the guys calling the shots as far as actual use of protocol goes. The board just sets the profit lines, and sends and investigator if they think the regional management isn't working to full effect.

>>46645353
Oh wait, I didn't even say enclaves. Words, mouths, etc.

>>46645329
What you are suggesting isn't trainined someone to be a psychopath, it's shell shocking someone until they are broken and useless.

>>46645380
... No. No it isn't.

>>46645384
Then you clearly don't know what you're talking about

>>46645312
>Purposes of green
Boy am I retarded. That should say /greed/.

>>46645309
I like to capitalize on the dark future aspect. It's about the fact that people DO just go "meh" when something horrible happens. It's a sort of interesting world, where nothing is wrong, but nothing is really right either. It should be a constant despair, not shock, that the players in any cyberpunk setting feel.

>I must just disagree.
Well, there's no right answer to the question, sadly. I personally think that a lot of morals and such like that are engraved by society, and can be easily undone by society. Your military friend was taught all his life that killing is bad, so he thinks so, despite the military's best efforts to undo that. I think raising one in a violent environment where such acts are met with reward rather than punishment would certainly be grounds enough to erase the taboo of killing.

>I feel something similar when I hear of anyone who's died.
Now that is just odd.

>>46645380
It would really just be better to chip or chemically alter the amygdala to eliminate what in layman's terms is called a conscience.

In other related things, stunted growth of the amygdala and prefrontal cortex also are theorized to lead to psycho/sociopathy.

>>46645388
Right back at you.

>>46645404
Not gonna waste my time with you. Just read up on soldiers with PTSD. You're proposing doing that to someone on purpose. Only a small fraction is going to actually desensitise in the way you want to, and they're going to kill themselves within 2 years average.

>>46645402
>It would really just be better to chip or chemically alter the amygdala to eliminate what in layman's terms is called a conscience.
>In other related things, stunted growth of the amygdala and prefrontal cortex also are theorized to lead to psycho/sociopathy.

If you can actually make the scientific breakthrough to completly solve the psychopathic condition, then there's nothing that prevents you from creating it on purpose. It's just a bit of a moot discussion because no current scientist knows anything at all about mental conditions. Everything the psychology field is, is poking people with a stick and seeing what happens, then picking a different stick.

>>46645220
"Living in a corp enclave" != middle class

Most corp employees are wageslaves--their basic needs are met, but they put in insane hours (80+ hours a week is not uncommon). Keeping them in an enclave, whether it's a corp-owned suburb or an arcology, gives the corp a better chance to spy on them, as well as ensuring that most of their meager salaries are channeled right back into the corp itself.

A dystopia doesn't *have* to look like Blade Runner or Brazil in order to be one.

>>46645402
We'll have to agree to disagree, then. A lot of this is from an emotional aspect, and that's near-impossible to argue on. We just run cyberpunk differently. My group responds well to mine, and I do hope that your group responds well to yours.

>>46645423
Clearly you are spending time typing, and no, I haven't proposed that at all. I've pointed out that legal marketing techniques exist in SR that can predispose someone to specific actions, reactions, or preferences.

This could be put to means of societal control like encouraging gangs & violence. Nothing like keeping the world outside the wageslaves' homes mean and scary to keep them in line.

SR wouldn't have anything like that in, say, trog rock now, would it?

>>46645353
When I think enclave, I think closed corporate community. Burbclaves, no?

>>46645360
Eh, good point. Even in that case, I can't see an executive caring more about their lost goons than whatever the run was about.

>>46645435
As a neuroscientist, I would like to disagree with you. While we've only made one inch of progress, with about one-hundred miles left, we've still made progress. We do know that you can replicate someone with no empathetic connections (Not psychopathy, necessarily), by altering the amygdala. Actually, the pentagon not even 10 years ago were attempting to make a combat drug that disabled the functions of the thing, though it was met with MASSIVE outrage. Shame, really.

>>46645447
Perhaps I'm stuck in Shadowrun of old, where (Please, excuse my offensive terminology following, it's for lack of better words) it was more cyberpunk than post-cyberpunk. Surely you know what I mean. That 80s hyper-dystopic vision that was very in your face, as opposed to the 2010's more subtle vision of the dystopic future.

It's just as easy to pay someone in corporate scrip to control them, you don't need to be big brother. Even then, a massive amount of people are jobless as unskilled labour is a thing of the past thanks to the miracle of a POST INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY (Someone cue the dramatic music there). Corporations don't care about spying on people, they're not a government. They just want to make cash.

>>46645468
You say that like you're fairly certain that my group does not respond well to my take on the genre. Maybe I'm just thinking too deep about it.

But to give you an answer, my players tend to tell me I do the atmosphere and feeling of the world well. As mentioned previously, I don't try to shock my players, I make an attempt to provide something to consider, if that makes sense. A sort of "What if." Call it a more subtle horror, if you will.

I would like to chime in on the Lethal vs Non-Lethal discussion. Setting where going lethal against a corp is normal and ignored is grimderp and unsustainable. You can still do it - no issue, never let anyone say otherwise.

But please do realize that such a setting loses all claims to realism. Because can you imagine people wanting to become cops in a world where cops are killed left and right?

In my personal view ~75% of shadowrunners can kill in cold blood w/o issue, but ~90% realize that killing people is a bad idea, because the more damage you do (and between training fees, equipment, and life insurance, you can rack up quite a number even on a trivial job) the more heat you will attract.

Remember that standard chargen runners are career criminals, that actually managed to survive long enough to become established.

>>46645557
Now, perhaps I haven't been phrasing myself correctly. It's not that deaths are ignored, it's that in the grand scheme of things, they don't mean all too much. It's not grimderp to assume that career criminals are going to blast a few people on the way to whatever the hell they want to do. When your life is on the line, 99% of people don't care if you stun the other guy, or blow his brains out. People are going to pick whatever is more effective. Because your life matters more than that other guy's.

Also, there's plenty of real-world examples of people going in to professions with high death rates.

I hope this didn't just post three times because my connection is shitting.

>>46645529
I can see some of that; the fact is, since the '80s, one of the side effects of the Information Revolution that the big cyberpunk authors all missed was that you get more profit from pretending to be nice than from treating everyone (most of whom are potential customers) like refuse.

I saw an interview with the authors of The Expanse series recently, and they pointed out how cyberpunk predicted that information would be presented via an immersive 3D environment, when in reality a stark screen with a single text box became the dominant medium. ShadowRun has been trying to balance out the old gritty feel with the newer, enslaved-with-gilded-chains feel that more recent history has introduced us to.

Myself, I see both in the world--want to see old-school cyberpunk? Step out into a Barrens, omae. A middle-class-looking suburb (populated by wageslaves who don't actually own the houses or much anything else, either)? That's (in my mind) going to look deceptively nice, and be populated with people who have the faint trappings of economic freedom, without any substance behind it.