>Martials are balanced in 5e, bro! You'll totally have

>>46503708
I'll never understand why people expect "balance" in a cooperative game based around stories that's just for fun. Either go play vidya games or get over your "muh sords" penis envy.

>>46503708
I've never claimed balance but martials are definitely more fun than in previous editions.

>>46503708

You're wrong.

>>46504640
Because being a collaborative experience, people want to be able to meaningfully contribute one way or another.

>>46504695
Then they should have killed the wizard while he was still vulnerable to swords.

>>46504640
Because why would you want to play the lowly peasant with a sharp metal stick while Demi-god wizard there is dealing in global politics and battling the elemental forces of nature just to keep humanity breathing for a few more days at a time?

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>5e is fun
>5e is balanced

yeah i'm never touching that shit again. i'll take a look to see if they've got psionics out for it yet just to see what they come up with, but in general fuck that whole mess

Holy shit are 4e players STILL this butthurt that WotC tried to fix the problems with the most popular edition instead of shooting themselves in the foot by basing the new D&D off one of the least?

>>46503708
>GURPS is an easy system that's fun to play!

>>46503708
>waaaa waaaa muh fighter is not strong enough

Stop playing DnD if it's such a problem for you or fuck off.

>>46504865
Hurr

>>46504898
>Sorry man. Your character is in-game useless but I can't fix that and let you have fun because that's against the rules. Now pardon me while I suck the wizard player's cock vigorously.

>>46504943
You knew what you signed up for when you made the character.

>>46504943
>not using weeaboo fightan magic
>not being a better paladin than the paladin

>>46504943
How do you propose we fix it, oh wise one?
>Inb4 hurr don't play d&d

Jokes on you, me not having fun has nothing to do with my class, I'm just completely uninterested in this campaign.

>>46504755
I don't know why, but I've always found you psionics or nothing players irritating as fuck.

>>46505046
Play a all Tier 1 party and ban all other classes.

>>46504640
Because when you're sitting on your hands watching the other guy do everything it starts to feel less "cooperative" and "fun."

>>46505046
>>Inb4 hurr don't play d&d
No, seriously, don't play fucking D&D. There is a literal library of games out there you could be playing instead, any of which might give you a game you like better, and give it more easily, than forcing D&D to change to be what you want it to be.

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>>46505099
Only wizards, Druids and clerics? Super fun, that.

>>46505085
It's because psionic players are often the autistic control freaks who will try to mind control everyone to do (thing) EXACTLY the way they think it's supposed to go.

>>46504640
Where's that link to BMX Bandit and Angel Summoner when you need it?

>Max Dex means that's how much dexterity your character has when they wear that armor, bro.

>>46505117
Looks like you spelled "Only bards" incorrectly.

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>>46505104
Why does the 10th level fighter send his army against the wizard?

>>46505147
I'm not sure I follow that line of thought.

If you're finding fighters ineffective, you're doing it wrong.

>>46505194
Why doesn't*

>>46505194
He's implying that a wizard could solo an entire army of fighters.

>>46505221
Because wizards are excellent army killers.
What you need to defeat a wizard is a bunch of skilled assassins.

>>46505217
>8th level
>Fighter can attack twice per round and has a high AC
>Druid is a bear, has a bear companion, and is summoning more bears every round until the enemy is dead.

>>46505147
Cloudkill exists

>>46505221
Because the Fighter isn't automatically granted a Lordship upon reaching the 9th level anymore. Also AoE ability is a major contributor to caster superiority.

>>46505217
CRITICAL HIT
5E ON SUICIDE WATCH

>>46505112
>There is a literal library of games out there you could be playing instead
4 examples of systems that are good for fantasy roleplaying that are not autistic shit like gurps or mammoth shit like WHRP please.

>>46505217
Fighters are in effective at everything that isn't fighting and climb checks. Please tell me how a fighter can be effective outside of combat without major tweaking system wide and intense work on the player's side.

>>46505255
The Druid cannot do this forever. Yeah, some fighters and barbarians may die, but if they plan their attack and use the druids's weaknesses to their advantage they can win

>>46505085
>I don't know why, but I've always found you psionics or nothing players irritating as fuck.
>>46505124
>It's because psionic players are often the autistic control freaks
no i just like psionics because it's cooler to me to envision than waving my hands around in the air and speaking some ancient tongue and casting a spell ONCE before i rest.

and the powers are often more interesting (i loved making people save vs. cerebral fluid causing their head to explode, for example). with magic it's more like "oh i point my finger at you save or you die by unspecified means."

>>46505248
Don't be an idiot.
A small group of assassins is exactly what every god-wizard ever is designed to defeat. Drowning him in bodies is objectively better. He literally cannot kill them all fast enough.

>>46505351
>fighters need to calculate their every turn ,making role playing game a fucking chess-risk
>casters can just spam bears
You know it's ironic that intellectually oriented characters need least amount of brains to play.

>>46505351
>but that requires me to think!

>>46505347
>Please tell me how a fighter can be effective outside of combat
extra feats
access to weaboo fighting magic

>>46505385
I was assuming the assassins would try to get the drop on him when he happens to have his defenses down - because that's how good assassins operate.

>>46505372
> Unspecified means

Death by fireball... I don't understand why they died...?

>>46505422
And good wizards, under the D&D magic system, will have 24/7 defense systems.

>>46504676
More fun than 3.5 maybe.

And even that's debatable.

>/tg/ is not full of shitty threads.

Greatest lie ever,

>>46505423
>Death by fireball
has this actually happened to anyone that isn't level 3?

i've never seen fireball do anything significant.

>>46505432
But not perfect defenses. A few weeks of observations will tell the assassins what spells the wizard has active and what openings there are left.

>>46505432
When they get higher in level, yes, but fighters can have guards when they sleep or if the DM is smart gives them magic items to protect themselves

>>46505287
Isn't there an alternative rule in the DMGuide saying you can strike through more enemies, if damage carries over. Wouldn't be a huge buff, but could help balancing a bit.

>>46505255
>>46505351
More like the druid cannot do that, full stop.
It's the ranger that gets the animal companion, and as a bear he can't cast.

I really hate how you guys act like spell casters have infinite spells

>>46505419
>weaboo fighting magic
>the thing that cemented Fighters in shit forever by literally just adding objectively better fighters, but under name

>>46505478
There's Cleave and Great Cleave in 3.X and GWM in 5e that give you (an) extra hit(s) when you get a kill.

>>46505332
I've got experiences with, and would recommend:

Savage Worlds
Legend
13th Age
Strike!
FantasyCraft
Dungeon World/World of Dungeon
FATE/Accelerated

There's some narrative games in the mix, so beware of that I guess.

>>46505466
And the wizard can't hire guards or actually craft those magic items for himself because...?

>>46505528
It's not that a level-20 wizard has infinite spells; it's that he will almost always have the resources (spell slots/spells prepared) that allow him to dictate the terms of the battle - including putting it off for a day so that he can change his spell selection.
The only effective way to go after a magic user is to send a magic user.

>>46505548
so don't pick fighter then?
what are you whining about. weeaboo fighting magic redeems martials.

>>46505574
Because bodyguards can't take a guy seriously that dresses like a girl, or a girl that dresses like a slut.

>>46505594
>it's that he will almost always have the resources (spell slots/spells prepared) that allow him to dictate the terms of the battle - including putting it off for a day so that he can change his spell selection.
only if you allow said wizard to take his spells from every fucking book ever published.

>>46505594
>The only effective way to go after a magic user is to send a magic user.
Or to surprise and one-shot him in an unusual way.

>>46505548
>>the thing that cemented Fighters in shit forever by literally just adding objectively better fighters, but under name

Considering WotC (and RPG companies in general) doesn't do errata/patches much, and especially not a grandiose redesign like that, they either release "fighter+" as a new class, or they don't release it at all.

I mean, can you explain how the game is improved by a good fighter replacement NOT being released? Hell, how does that help the fighter itself? If anything, at least CRB fighter can dip into that stuff for some massive boosts.

>>46505603
>The armed and physically competent fighter causes his bodyguards to think that they can relax and goof off because he can handle himself
>The twig man of a wizard looks like a stiff wind will knock him out, so the bodyguards are always on their A-game

>>46505594
But you guys act like the spell caster expend the resources to teleport out of his beseeched tower every day if he comes under attack and not show the realm he's a total pussy

>>46505627
With spells like nerveskitter, foresight, and other divinations existing, that's quite the task.

>>46505513
Druids get animal companions, and they can take Natural Spell which grants them spellcasting while wildshaped.

Now, were I starting over, I'd probably make it so that only Rangers get animal companions and Druids instead can summon beasts to their aid. Furthermore, I'd make Natural Spell a metamagic feat.

>>46505644
>the bodyguards are always on their A-game
>2 weeks into the jobs the first ones start calling in sick because of too much stress at the workplace

ITT: 3.PF/4e fags that have never played 5e

>>46505626
When I still ran 3.5 I made players research non-core spells. But that doesn't fix the theoretical mechanical imbalance. If I restrict everyone to core-only, the fighter is still incompetent (more so, really) compared to a wizard/cleric/druid.
Look at it this way. The wizard and fighter both have tasty, delicious cake. Then you take away the wizard's icing, and take away the fighter's cake.

The wizard still has a cake. It just has no icing.
The fighter has nothing.

>>46505632
WotC has made how many semi-official attempts at fixing the 5e Ranger now?

There's also nothing to be lost by releasing a Player's Option: Combat & Tactics for a new edition rather than a new class that renders an already suffering class obsolete.

>>46504640
Let's play a simple game.
We flip over a card from a regular deck of playing cards, and if it matches one of the cards we have in hand, we discard both and get a point.
When the deck is over we count the points. The game is cooperative so everything goes in a pool.
You start with two cards in hand, I start with twelve.
Sounds fine, right?

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>>46504692
I thought the consensus was that 5e wasn't balanced, but it was better balanced than 3e, and probably balanced enough for the purposes of most groups?

It doesn't take a genius to look at the Fighter and the Wizard and notice there's still a gap there. But if you did want it spelled out in detail, that's been done too:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17AKvlmI-4urcO2YMt6HMJmCLUoayZuo1gT0wQfBXlmQ/edit

Whether Fighters are fun is a matter of opinion obviously, but there's no question they have less "stuff" to play with.

>>46504975
>Weaboo fightan magic
>In 5e

You wish.

>>46505706
>If I restrict everyone to core-only
This is how you fuck your game up. You don't restrict everyone. Let the fighters have access to weeaboo magic and shit. Wizards and Sorcerers are core only because they're already strong enough.

Are you retarded?

>>46505662
>allowing spell compendium or complete X books
this is the future you chose.

>>46505707
Keyword being semi-official.

>There's also nothing to be lost by releasing a Player's Option: Combat & Tactics for a new edition rather than a new class that renders an already suffering class obsolete.

Not sure if I get what you mean. Do you mean "for a new edition" like how they released 4e with a fighter that wasn't absolute shit, or do you mean just not naming the warblade warblade and presenting it as its own class, but instead making it into a fighter only feat tree or something?

>>46505255
>Druid is a bear,
Yes

>has a bear companion
No

>and is summoning more bears every round until the enemy is dead.
No

You can't say "fighters in 5e suck compared to druids" when your druid isn't even playing 5e, but some other game with different made-up rules.

>>46505689
>3 weeks in the bodyguards have been replaced with angry skeletons

>>46505750
WoTC already gave all martials anime powers since 4e anyway.

it would be redundant in 5e where martials are actually better than casters 90% of the time, or it would make martials better than casters 100% of the time.

>>46505765
No.

>>46505749
>It doesn't take a genius to look at the Fighter and the Wizard and notice there's still a gap there. But if you did want it spelled out in detail, that's been done too:

>links some random bullshit that concludes fighters are weaker based on arbitrarily assigning point values to random various class features

>>46505843
You sound retarded if you think banning everything equally in an unequal setting is a good idea.

Are you Down Syndrome then?
High functioning Autism?

>>46505046
Better saves?

Spell resistance?

A move that deals extra damage to magic users (maybe make it a specialization tree?)

At higher levels, a one-hit-kill blow (aka the fighters save-or-die).

Start with combat reflexes and power attack (if 3.5)

More frequent or special attribute buffs (more STR, con, Dex?)

A bump to skill ranks (3.5). All fighters should have ride and tactics and stuff. Bonuses to flanking, can take half damage for adjacent players (protecting their companions)

>>46505866
>arbitrarily

You could try reading it first.

Ah, the classic "x system is shit/x system's balance is shit because I play with a terrible DM and non-compatible players" posting.

The most fun I've had in 5e is a martial only campaign with 2 fighters, a ranger, a rogue and a barbarian. All of us were on the same page and thus we had a fantastic time. If you're expecting to go into super high fantasy setting playing as a mundane sword swinger and be the equivalent of a god, well that is not the system's fault for you not having a good time; it's on you.

>>46505632
I had an idea for a fighter replacement, though not as a counter to caster superiority. My idea was that it seems like nobody plays Fighters because the Barbarian, Monk, and other classes of their ilk are all much more interesting takes on the concept and a Fighter's just there to fill out your feat selection. So, instead, I came up with a concept where all the pure martial classes were subsumed into the Fighter, and now behaved like Talent Trees from d20 modern, where every level (or maybe every other level) you picked a Fighter Talent from one of the available Trees, such as Berserker, Pugilist, Duelist, Weapon Master, Archer, War-Sage (basically Swordsage style martial magic), Wrestler.

Moreover, the Talents offered both the abilities of the classes they were replacing as well as certain save-or-die or proto-Controller abilities, like being able to throw someone across the room or having a chance to just straight up break someone's neck. Furthermore, there would be hybrid talents that would only unlock when you had prerequisite talents from other trees. For example, a War-Sage/Archer build where you fire one arrow into the air and a hundred come down in an AoE effect at the other end, or a Pugilist/Duelist talent that gives you Quivering Palm.

Finally, one of the things I wanted to do was let Fighters have a bit of that rule-breaking sweetness that Casters enjoy so much, so some Talents would change how core mechanics work. For example, a Berserker talent that gives you Deathless Frenzy, or the Weapon Master tree ending with Weapon Supremacy from PHB2 (which lets you take 10 on attack rolls with your chosen weapon), or the Duelist having the option to Parry incoming attacks instead of relying on his AC.

>>46505873
I was not suggesting doing that. In fact, my post used it as an example of how to make everything worse by doing exactly that.
I've been in a lot of wizard-fighter threads and most of what I see is, "Wizards are mechanically fine because I banned them from doing anything."
Which means that they are not fine, because you had to target and gimp them because they were so not-fine.

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>>46505825
>Trying for everything at once

>>46505597
>weeabo fighting magic redeems martials
Every 3.PF fanboy has cried foul since it's release and most DMs still auto ban the book.

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>>46504640
>I'll never understand why people expect 'balance'
Then try not playing a full caster m8, you'll figure it out pretty quickly.

>>46505423
Fireballs don't kill things.

He probably means shit where you're like scared to death by an illusion or other nonsense.

>>46503708
5e is incredibly balanced.

The only way you can fail to have fun because of class balance is if you pick the absolute worst option (BM Ranger), and someone in your party picks the absolute best option (Moon Druid), and even then you'll still be fairly close together in strength for the majority of levels.

>>46505907
It's been suggested that Punching Man, Angry Man, etc. should be subclasses of Fighting Man in the past, but it's never gained much traction. I blame battered wife syndrome and bloat addiction.

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>>46505892
there are already feats that allow you to say fuck you to many of the wizard's anti martial powers.

there are more i'm forgetting i'm sure.

>>46505112
And yet none of them have anywhere near the amount of content or customization and pure crunch that 3.PF has. There are a lot of good fantasy systems out there, but none of them can replicate the D&D experience without falling flat in somewhere or another.

There is no perfect system, there never will be.

>>46505560
>Savage Worlds
>FATE
Am I supposed to take you seriously after that?
>Fantasy Craft
>Dungeon World/World of Dungeon
>Strike!
This is some GURPS-tier shit.

>>46505046
The way I would fix 3.5 martials would be making everyone literally a caster.
Not in the fightan magic or enounter power sense. All martials (fighter, rogue, monk etc) get spell progression as the ranger and customized spell lists containing mostly utility - knock and invisibility for the rogue, self-buffs and mend for the fighter etc. Possibly, most of these spells get removed from the caster spell lists at the same time. These are not spells spells, more like "special martial techniques" or something.

I am aware that this is going to be taken as sarcasm, but I would actually play a game like this some time.

>>46505907
Sounds cool. I do think the mechanical differences between classes in the WotC editions are way too little, so making less, but more diverse classes would be something I'd endorse.

That said, that's still a new class/edition, so not sure how much relevancy it has to the discussion chain you are replying to.

>>46505929
>Every 3.PF fanboy has cried foul since it's release and most DMs still auto ban the book.
i am a 3.PF fanboy and DM and i have never once been in a game where it was banned.

in fact i or the other DMs encourage using the book because it's FUN.

>>46505816
His druid's rules are from 3.5

>>46506011
>Post some alternatives that I can rebut with pithy one-liners because they are not 3.x

Brain damage, woohoo!

>>46505988
>Pierce Magical Protection
Oh shit, that is some anime-level martial power. I never actually looked into it before, I didn't see the point of building anti-magic characters, but damn.

>>46506011
okay so you're just trolling then

why didn't you just say so

>>46506021
So 4e?

You're also alienating the sort of people who enjoy the pure simplicity of the 5e Champion fighter.

5e = AD&D 2e > PF > 4e > 3.5 > 3.0 > POWER GAP > AD&D

deal with it

>>46506028
I was thinking of it for a 3.5 overhaul I was toying with back before 4e came out. Just felt like saying it out loud. The proto-controller stuff, in particular, was in response to things you always see in movies, where characters get thrown around or blown across rooms, but to get a similar power in 3.5 required around 4 feats.

>>46506074
So not 4e it's not even funny as a bait.
But I see how this thread is turning out, I won't omment anymore on your precious perfect pet game.

>>46506053
mage slayer alone lets you say fuck you to the wizard half the time because he can't cast his spells or move away from you without getting whacked and probably tripped or something.

the others let you just seriously fuck a wizard's whole day up beyond that.

>>46506021

That still doesn't really solve the Druid - Fighter paradigm. The Druid is still a bear with a pet bear that can buff both of them, and which also summons bears. Until level 7ish, when it becomes a Tyrannosaurus with a pet Tyrannosaurus that can buff both of them, and which also summons Tyrannosaurs.

>>46506111
>everyone gets "not spell spells"
>not 4e
Explain your reasoning.

>>46506074
>You're also alienating the sort of people who enjoy the pure simplicity of the 5e Champion fighter.

I'm sure you could still choose to only ever basic attack if you wanted.

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/tg/ you are supposed to be better than this type of behavior! Leave this type of shitposting for the WoTC forums.

>>46506011
Not that guy but I would check out burning wheel, torchbearer, and dccrpg they might be up your alley.

>>46506115
what if alright this might sound crazy but what if

a multiclassed anti-mage fighter teleports in front of a wizard and has the mage slayer trait

>>46506139
But you wouldn't even be in the same ballpark of the guy who didn't, while the 5e Champion can remain competitive and useful, even if it does lag behind the very best options.

>>46506118
did 5e remove the line where it says you can't wildshape into something you've never seen before?

simply DON'T let the druid become a dino because dinos don't exist or he's never seen one.

>>46506171
Then the wizard still has some options, unless the Fighter has some feat that keeps people from five-foot-stepping away. In that case, the Wizard could very well be boned.

Actually, what you want is a Mage Slayer Reaping Mauler with a teleport ability. Truly hideous.

>>46506185
That guy's not even talking about 5e.

>>46506222
five-foot stepping is not an option in 5e.

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>>46506011
>Strike! is GURPS tier

>>46506185
Ah, 5e has Animorphs rules? That's good, it's something I always required when I was DMing 3.5.

>>46506246
Neither are Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Protection.

>>46506246
the feats posted were about 3.5.

>>46506171
>a multiclassed anti-mage fighter teleports in front of a wizard and has the mage slayer trait
he would still be threatening the wizard with an AoO so the wizard is still probably fucked.

>>46506249
I assume he means all 3 of those are memetic.

Not sure how that's a counterargument, but there you go.

>>46506168
Torchbearer is without a doubt the worst recommendation for a D&D player. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad system but for people who enjoy D&D or "would enjoy D&D if it had some minor tweaks" they are not going to have a good time using TB as a replacement. Completely different games.

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>>46503708
Hey, do you know what game martials are balanced in? Games that are not DnD.

I mean jesus christ, you guys who argue about this are like a lactose intolerant person who keeps drinking milk and complaining it makes them sick.

>>46506284
I'm pretty sure Mage Slayer is a feat in 5e.

>>46506320
Yeah, it's kinda shit compared to the 3.5 one, especially considering you get way less feats overall.

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>>46506320
It does, but they don't do the same thing.

5e is far from a perfect system.

5e is not perfectly balanced.

What 5e is, is generally balanced enough that if friends design characters as characters and not mathematical constructs you can probably bring a decent distribution of classes to the table and have a good time, in contrast to the tier system of 3e meaning even the most tame top-tier characters would outstrip lower. Play a Psion and a Soulknife in the same campaign. Or don't, the psion will out perform the soulknife by spamming fucking crystal shard, his "basic" attack spell (True story: we fixed it by letting the soulknife gestalt fighter. The bonus feats did a TON of work and the campaign continued sans trouble). Being "competitive" or "able to contribute" in a co-operative game has it's limits, which is why balance matters, but it's also not a narrow band.

At this point, If you "can't have fun" with a martial, the problem, which has been the system in the past, is not the system anymore. It's you. You are butthurt. You're probablya 4efag intending to kick up trouble, but I'll be charitable and say maybe you're just a "Stop getting fantasy in my fantasy REEEEEE!" Martials Stronk Autist unable to control your impotent rage rather than a mere troll. Sucks to be you.

>Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit
I've got to say those things are funny, even if they do now have an unavoidable stink of old butthurt. And it's worth noting, as one once did to me: BMX Bandit calls all the shots. He determines all the missions, he's the first to suggest a plan. Angel Summoner can achieve the goals more effectively but never seems to care what those goals are. If you find yourself stuck on the wrong end of the Tier System because your DM is a RAW Autist who doesn't account for it and yet still plays 3e, be like BMX Bandit. Or Sokka. He's another decent if comedic example.

>>46506359
Fighters get plenty of Feats still.

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>>46506320
it's not as good because neutered casters.

basically preventing a caster from casting or moving away without risking being tripped or smacked is much better than forcing disadvantage on casting defensively.

How to fix 5e:

Add 40 or 50 new feats and grant a feat AND ability score increase at their designated levels but grant martials 2 bonus feat slots at creation.

Done

>>46506302
Well he was asking for fantasy rpg's not a dnd-like. That being said I understand your point the system is atypical.

>>46506359
In the 3e one they can just 5' step away and blast you.

>>46506305
>Games that are not DnD.

Actually nah. This is a pretty consistent RPG problem.

>>46506381
If you have a feat that prevents that, they can't. And you're a fighter, all you've got is feats.

>>46506373
They need them for stats, great weapon master and probably polearm master.

And it's STILL not a good feat even after those, since hitting someone while casting doesn't actually interrupt the spell in 5e, unless it's one with concentration.

>>46506400
>>46506381
Or just a reach weapon/enlarge person on you.

How would you build a Templar kinda deal with a fighter geared to kill Wizards?

Mage Slayer, Shield Master, Sentinel, Resilience (Wis)?
Can't tell if BM or Champion would be better

>>46506404
Give them Sentinel (Or whatever the one is that stops movement after you make a reaction attack) and Mage Slayer and they will fuck casters up. Advantage/Disadvantage is a pretty huge bonus.

>>46506364
>5e is... balanced enough [for combat]
The variety of utility spells still leaves non-casters miles behind, especially compared to Cha casters who's primary combat stat is also the primary non-combat stat.

>>46506420
BM can one-turn caster types, so I'd go with that.

>>46506381
REACH
WEAPON

against a mage you should be using something with 10ft reach anyway along with all three of those feats if you really want to be effective.

you should also have some item that lets you swift dimension door/hop/slide and slap on some haste boots so you can really fuck them up bad.

if you can HIT the mage then you will almost assuredly trip him.

if he's flying then you fly too and grapple the fuck out of him.

>>46506400
>If you have a feat that prevents that, they can't

Name the feat. Seriously.

For the record, its a DC 15 (iirc) tumble check to move without provoking AoOs, and wizards have skills aplenty.

>>46506445
>The variety of utility spells still leaves non-casters miles behind

This is true of all editions of D&D that ever were and of virtually all RPGs that aren't narrative nonsense.

>>46506459
Tumble is a cross-class skill, and I can't think of such a feat but it feels like it must exist. Well, there's Improved Trip or Improved Grapple, I suppose.

>>46503708

Let the transgender person play in your game, she totally won't play a one-note transgender character.

what if the fighter just hides and kills the wizard with a composite bow before he knows what hit him?

>>46505347
>I cannot into feats
>I cannot into creative thinking

>>46506476
>This is true of all editions of D&D that ever were

4e

If only because picking up utility rituals only costs a feat, so they aren't behind by much even if you value rituals highly.

>>46506487
>and I can't think of such a feat but it feels like it must exist.

You have to rely on pretty bizarre techniques really. Difficult terrain generators, generally. All I can think of is that underpowered dwarven stone dragon martial adept PrC and one of the features of the knight.

>Tumble is a cross-class skill

True, but the point is that there's an expiration date on such things, and certainly more comfortably obtainable than this stuff >>46506452

>>46506476
Well, you still have classless systems where not being primarily a caster doesn't mean you can't get cool spell or two.

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And let's dispel once and for all with this fiction that Mike Mearls doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing. Mearls is undertaking a systematic effort to change this fandom, to make tabletop games more like vidya.

>>46505147
>>46505221

Why would he want to? Jealousy? Is he going to be the latest bad guy for the wizard to defeat?

The wizard can likely answer with a more exciting army.

The wizard can just kill that army, and the fighter too.

Has anyone really been far even as decided want to go do look more like?

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>>46506459
I've always allowed a version of this (homebrewed before it was PF) in all my games.

You can also avoid tumbling by simply readying an action to hit the caster the moment he tries to move away. there you go. no 5ft step and probably tripped.

>>46505385
>He literally cannot kill them all fast enough.

C L O U D K I L L

>>46506539
That's still true in 5e. There's a feat that gives you unlimited ritual casting from a chosen class.

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>>46506502

>>46506555

>doesn't mean you can't get a cool spell or two

Well in that case, you're still a caster.

>>46506539
If you're comfortable with how 4e handles out of combat stuff more power to you then.

>>46505385
what about magical assassins?

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>>46506476
It's solvable, just merge the fighter and rogue. If the result is more powerful than casters then we can talk about making wizards stronger for once, which should be easy. And if it's less powerful than casters, at least you've made the gap much smaller.

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>>46506619

>>46505465

>greater than 20 int
>using the same paranoid defensive spells every day
>even summoning the same kind of outsider to protect you every day
>being viewable

>>46506616
5e still gives out game changing non-ritual spells to casters, while 4e reigned it in. In 5e you can get ritual casting, but it's still a smaller slice of the pie, so to say.

>>46506625
>If you're comfortable with how 4e handles out of combat stuff more power to you then.

How is it even different from other editions? It's still skills, except the wizard usually doesn't get to just snap his fingers and bypass shit when he feels like it (unless he goes for arcana optimization which is admittedly a problem, but at least it's just a single build).

>>46505627
>Dungeon Final Boss is a sorceror and his bodyguards
>80ft ceiling so Sorc is flying
>Barbarian gets annoyed by Lightning and rapidly declining HP
>throws Fighter at Sorc
>Nat 20
>argue well that the human projectile should have do the equivalent of fall damage
>Fighter gets 3 attacks +5d6+Barb STR from being thrown
>Sorc dies, Bodyguards surrender
>Party Wizard is salty as fuck he didnt get the killing blow
>proceeds to lightning bolt the corpse

>>46506589
Just my point is that its not a no brainer at all that 3e mage slayer > 5e mage slayer. 5e mage slayer is more complete, but 5e feats are way higher investment. 3e mage slayer is less investment, but figuring out how you actually capitalize on it is a big deal.

I do like the Pierce Magical Defenses or whatever feat that lets you do one standard attack that ignores spell boosts to AC, and shuts them all down on a hit. That alone will end a lot of caster enemies (how often are they going to rely on anything but buff spells for defense?).

>>46505821
I can't believe it took this long to reach the point where the wizard is just making his own bodyguards.

>>46506394
now now, don't confuse them with facts and logic, it just upsets them

>>46506721
I'm a little unclear on it, but I get the sense that Pierce Magical Protection works even when the caster isn't directly involved, such as with oils or wands. And Pierce Magical Concealment is basically free See Invisible, if I'm reading it right.

>>46505969
I think an issue is that there is less rules in 5e (thank fuck) so there is more room for DM discretion and lots of DMs are complete shit

People who complain their fighter is shit in 5e have only themselves or their DM to blame.

>>46506756
>>46506394

Must be nice, being able to just reject reality like that.

>>46506690
>How is it even different from other editions?

You have a one size fits all skill system with scaling DCs, and for virtually anything that isn't a combat encounter or skill challenge the answer is "make something up." Which is fine for the sort of game 4e is.

I'm sure the reply will be some variant of "sure, some older editions had more variety in out of combat elements, but those systems were shit, its much better for the DM to ad hoc."

And that's a perfectly valid perspective, but despite having been a 4e fan for years the total arrogance of the 4e devs deciding "this and only this is what matters, everything else is make-something-up tier" has poisoned it for me.

Still would probably play it though.

>>46506222
>Reaping Mauler
No anon, black blood cultist if you're going for any sort of grappler. But don't, since dimension door and the like can be cast while grappled. What you really want is someone with a spiked chain, a belt of battle and an antimagic torc. Standard teleport next to them (via boots of teleportation or whatever your choice ability is), swift activate belt of battle to get another standard action with which to activate the torc.

Back in AD&D, a wizard wasn't invincible because it took time for him to cast spells. A fighter could kill a wizard because by the time the wizard was done casting the spell that removes the fighter, the fighter had already killed him twice.

Redoing the initiative and casting time is what turned casters into gods, not the spell lists.

>>46505255
>Fighter can attack twice per round and has a high AC
Move, Attack Action, Action Surge into Attack Action. Burn all four Superiority Dice. Hit you four times with my greatsword for 2d6+1d8+5 plus a special effect from the Superiority Dice (things like tripping, knockback, fear, and so on). Your AC is shit in bear form, so I might as well use Great Weapon Mastery for +10 damage per attack, for a total of 108 damage in one round.

At 8th level, I just used one turn to both knock you out of bear form and then murder your finger-wigglin' ass.

And as others have mentioned, Druids don't get companions, and Conjure Animals is a concentration spell, so not only can you only have one active at a time, but my four attacks just ended that spell anyway, 'cuz you're not making 4 concentration checks in a row even if you somehow survive the damage.

It's like you haven't even played 5e or something.

>>46505668
> Druids get animal companions, and they can take Natural Spell which grants them spellcasting while wildshaped.

You know we're talking about 5th edition, right? None of this is true anymore.

>>46506560
>make tabletop games more like vidya.
>not limiting casters to spells with strict adventure-only applications
Naw.

>>46506822
Nope. Get out of your bubble and actually read some varied RPGs, my man.

3e is a fucked up game. Massive mistakes were made that peed on what worked before. I'm not going to argue it was well made or that a 3e game is likely to go well or that it knows what its trying to do or that you should ever play it.

And yet 3e still makes an attempt to give muggles nice things. This alone differentiates it from most other RPGs.

The games that are not D&D that lack caster imbalance are almost universally one of three categories:

1. Games with fairly strong narrative elements
2. Games where everyone is magic and what constitutes a muggle is ambiguous
3. Games where there's subsystems that let muggles have an experience similar to that of a mage (technology in sci fi RPGs often lets you do this)

>>46506851
>You have a one size fits all skill system with scaling DCs

I'm not sure what this means exactly in the perspective .
>>46506898

>>46506937
>Your AC is shit in bear form, so I might as well use Great Weapon Mastery for +10 damage per attack, for a total of 108 damage in one round.

1. he reverts from bear form in the middle of that so his AC improves
2. Even in bear form you'll only have a +3 (+3 prof, +5 stat) vs his I think 12 or 14 AC, which means you'll miss about half of your attacks.
3. Bear form is spongy, so it may soak up some of your attacks
4. at level 8 he'll be in a form that's tougher than the bear he can transform into at level 2-3.

>>46504730
Yes, why would you?

But in case someone does, playing a peasant with a sharp metal stick should be playing a peasant with a sharp stick, not some reality bending, ham-fisted attempt at pretending like people who like to hit things should be just as powerful as magic, because muh balance.

If your priority when picking a system is that everyone should be 100% equally good at killing stuff, just play videogames, seriously.

It's role-playing, not WoW without graphics.

>>46507004
This list encompasses most RPGs that aren't D&D.

>>46507018
Well, botched that post...

>*I'm not sure what this means exactly in the perspective of D&D games with skills. 5e skills autoscale like 4e ones (just tying it to proficiency), while 3.5 skills in practice either auto scale because you put as many in them as you can, or you only need a few points to use them for whatever you want to use them for as they top out at around DC 10 or 15

>>46506937
Level 8? How did the fighter start flying?

There's also the fun of Shield a reaction spell that with 5e's lower accuracy is a "you don't hit me this turn" button.

>>46507049
>Batman never punches people out, and only ever use magic
Wait, that's not right...

>>46506181
You don't need that many "options" when you can execute up to 9 attacks in a round with a greatsword.

>>46507049
What do you think video games are inspired by?

Games are games. Role playing, board, video, they're all games and I hold their systems to the same standards.

>>46506011
Put your trip on, Virt.

>>46507055
It really does not. If you mean "most RPGs that are played" rather than "most RPGs that have been made" you may have an argument.

>>46507089

Older editions have entire books dedicated to noncombat subsystems. They may not be any good or fun but they exist. Ultimately, that's why I favor older editions.

>>46507004
Then there are games that don't obsess with making everyone equally good at killing shit where characterization means more than just how you hurt things.

Yes, if you're playing a total dungeoncrawler, being powerful is useful, but a lot of people just want to play various believable characters in medieval fantasy settings without being exposed to weaboo fightan magic.

What if I really want to play a squire or some total civilian or hobo? Should I demand that I'm on par with the veteran Knight or Sorcerer because otherwise it's unfair? Of course not, that would be retarded.

People who go on forums just to whine about level progression or imbalanced combos are completely missing the point and should play something that's actually competitive, instead of trying to win in a cooperative escapism game.

>>46507018
> he reverts from bear form in the middle of that so his AC improves

If he relies on bear form, then probably not, since he'll be spending all his time in animal form and that makes using resources on normal-form AC something of a waste.

> Even in bear form you'll only have a +3 (+3 prof, +5 stat) vs his I think 12 or 14 AC, which means you'll miss about half of your attacks.

My first hit knocks him prone, which grants advantage to the rest. Admittedly, there are chances for him to survive, but I think I've made my point pretty well: given even a tiny bit of luck, I can one-round even the Big Bad Bead Druid, and that's even without magic items (which, while not guaranteed, are a likely thing by 8th level in most games).

> Bear form is spongy, so it may soak up some of your attacks

Not many. An 8th level druid will average 63 hit points assuming a 14 Constitution. Now, it's possible that there's a bear that has 45 hit points, since I don't recall their stats off the top of my head, but in all likelihood, 108 damage is still probably going to burn through both the temporary bear HP and the Druid's actual HP.

> at level 8 he'll be in a form that's tougher than the bear he can transform into at level 2-3.

If that's true, then he shouldn't have said "bear form". Not my fault he doesn't know what he's doing. Also, the CR doesn't go up that much, so it won't be much more even if he does. He still won't be able to take me out before I finish him off next turn.

>>46506616
It's called being a wizard.

>>46507049
You don't get the point of a level based system, do you? If you're the same level as someone, you should be equally able to contribute to the game, simple as.

Besides, why should some stage magician be some reality-bending, ham-fisted attempt at pretending to be as powerful as a sword, rather than just a guy who pulls rabbits out of hats?

>>46507097
The same way the bear did, I guess.

> There's also the fun of Shield a reaction spell that with 5e's lower accuracy is a "you don't hit me this turn" button.

You seem to have missed the part where I'm taking on a Druid in bear form, not an arcane caster.

>>46503708
I'm having Fun playing a Fighter in 5E. Your argument is invalid.

>>46504695
Now this is just my group, but the way we tend to do that, is we have the characters come from fleshed out backgrounds that the players create with the DM, so even if they don't have amazing stats, they have connections. They have an angle. Maybe they can get the group in good with some military officials, or maybe their brother works for so and so noble, and they can be the medium to find answers.
Or you know, maybe the average Joe of the given setting feels uncomfortable about people with glowing eyes who wields the same powers that created that big lich army a few generations back nearly wiping out the kingdom, so said martial character can also be the honourable one whom people like to talk to, the guy with whom the Sheriff can talk as an equal. And hey, maybe said fighter can join a mercenary guild or other where he'll feel right at home, while spellcasters are generally only welcome in various colleges, giving them completely different means of acquiring information and getting recognized in the world, so that a DM who puts some thought into designing the quests can cater to everyone's special qualifications.

Or, maybe it's something as simple as the fighter having chosen to be a fighter to live up to a legendary warrior of old, who then the DM can weave into the lore of the ongoing issues, giving the fighter circumstance bonuses on knowledge checks, or just plain old telling the fighter's player certain things without even a check, because their character was built on the concept of idolizing this one hero who is integral to the plot, so of course he'd know the most well known things about him.

There's always stuff like Heroes of Legacy if you need inspiration.


The only game where balance in statistics can be a real issue is a dungeon crawl. At which point, yeah you should definetly figure out the general party power level in advance.
But if you're playing the way a lot of "balance isn't important" players do?
You only need to have a story.

>>46507164
>>46506937
thanks for proving champion fighter with GWM is overpowered and needs to be banned in all games!

>>46505372
>casting a spell ONCE before i rest.

I don't even play 5e but did you read the PHB at all? Like, no offense, but you can cast a spell as many times as you have appropriate spell slots

>>46507018
CR1 Bears have 11 AC.
In a strraight up brawl, Fighter will likely win that one, but the Druid can keep going once his bear gets knocked to 0

Probably not for long though.

>>46507123
>and I hold their systems to the same standards

Which absolutely makes you a retard. Role-playing games strength is the role-playing, immersion and creativity should matter more, not balance like it's some kind of fighting game.

What if someone just wants to play like a shitty, normal person? Should that character be given a fuckton of special abilities and retarded bonuses so that he/she is "balanced" with the rest of the group? What if someone wants his thing to be that he's fucking awesome in a fight, does everyone else also have to be awesome in a fight?

I understand that this concept is completely alien to people in a D&D thread, but jesus.

Balancing actively kills immersion by making the setting stupid in order to enable spergs who insist that whatever character they make, it should be just as powerful whatever character someone else makes.

I'm okay with settings where magic outright beats sharp steel, that's what most of fantasy is actually like. If I want to avoid "mage supremacy" or whatever, I just limit the playable characters to stuff that's roughly fair, I don't turn some town guard into son goku just because there's a wizard in there somewhere.

>>46507231
>Burning Superiority dice
It's a Battlemaster

>>46507237
psionics doesn't exist in 5e so i wasn't talking about 5e.

>>46507231
That's the Battle Master, actually, and if you don't know such a basic fact you probably shouldn't try to talk about game balance.

>>46507049
>If your priority when picking a system is that everyone should be 100% equally good at killing stuff, just play videogames, seriously.

I agree they shouldn't be 100% equally good at killing stuff. Fighters should be better, because otherwise they would be pointless, since that's pretty much their entire job. Pointless as a character class and pointless in the setting, because you wouldn't have fighters in the D&D sense, they would be replaced by combat mages.

>It's role-playing, not WoW without graphics.

Class balance has been a core part of D&D's design since before MMOs even existed. Not that they always achieved it, but the intent was there since at least 1e. It's obvious because they literally say it in the book.

>>46507299
OK. Ban both then.

Martials are ridiculously overpowered in 5e. It's like they looked at the Barbarian optimization classes where you do 300 damage in a turn and thought "that's what all martials should be like."

>>46507200
Because you're not actually playing a stage magician, what are you trying to argue by being intentionally dense?

I get that in your point of view contributing to the game only means being equally able to fuck shit up, because you're playing dungeoncrawler tactical simulator and the concept of just having an adventure with normal people or a mismatched party is completely foreign to you, but still, just try to use your imagination a bit.

What if some groups don't consist of people who flip the table if they think that someone else in their cooperative fantasy adventure is more handy in a fight than they are?

LotR would have been a pretty dull movie if the fellowship was just straight up 5 boromir.

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>>46507313
Oh, alright. The psion for 5e is still in the works but it's been expanded up to play test level 10 if it interests you

>>46503708
You must have a shitty DM OP.

>>46507283
Sharp steel should be better or more efficient at killing or subduing than magic given equal investment in training. I stand by this for reasons based in both thematics and in game balance.

>>46504640

I'll never understand why people completely fail to understand the spotlight-hogging issues that surround over-versatile classes.

>>46507214

Yeah, except who needs connections when you can mind control people or turn invisible and fly through an upper story window?

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>Grognards unironically arguing that two adventurers of the same level shouldn't be of comparative power

>>46507349
Look, I get you're retarded but you should probably carefully evaluate everything that you type before posting.

>>46507349
>This class is the best class
>No actually, look at this example
>This is unfair, ban it

Also to be fair in that example he posted he burned all the Fighters heavy hitters. If the Druid survives his capability to burst has gone way down.

>>46507403
I just realized the irony of this in such a number heavy game

>>46507144
>Older editions have entire books dedicated to noncombat subsystems. They may not be any good or fun but they exist. Ultimately, that's why I favor older editions.

Can you give an example? I have an inkling feeling that you could just transplant the good ones you want into 4e... or they can be represented adequately with a modified skill challenge.

>>46507164
I'll just go ahead and say that the guy who said "bear druid" at 8 kinda didn't know what he's talking about (probably 3.5 fixation). At that level, it's more likely you'll be going up against a a Giant Elk. Which is Huge so you can't trip it and has 42 HP and 14 AC.

You are not killing it in one turn and then you are out of surges, and if he drops out of Wildshape he can go back into it as a bonus action once as well.

>>46507408
>Look, I get you're retarded but you should probably carefully evaluate everything that you type before posting.
here's your reply.

>>46507412
the issue is that there are no fucking counters to how strong they made Martials now because AC is bounded and hard to boost to high enough levels to stop shit like 300 damage in a turn.

>>46507412
I remain confident in my ability to finish off the druid... but yeah, that was a nova just to show that I could take him down in one round. In a real fight where I'm not trying to show off, I'd probably be at least a little more conservative in my approach.

>>46507400
>Yeah, except who needs connections when you can mind control people or turn invisible and fly through an upper story window?

>Not running a campaign setting where Arcane Magic - the same thing that had fucking Vecna be a thing in Dungeons and Dragons be like, a thing - isn't closely monitored.
Theeeeeere's your problem.
I imagine the Sorceror/Wizard tends to casually walk into the tavern in the late afternoon, take a look at the not yet lit fire place and with a grin note "I've got this" before casually throwing some fire spells at it, and the tavern keep doesn't right away scold him, refuse service or outright call the guard because some maniac is throwing magic around in his establishment.

>>46507353
And you're not actually playing a peasant with a stick, so were you being intentionally dense with your original post?

And thanks for the condescension, but you're not making an actual point with any of it. I'm not saying every character should be as good in a fight as every other character, because obviously there will be differences in characters, but on a large scale everyone should contribute equally. To use your LotR example, Boromir helped defend the group, Merry/Pippin rallied the ents, Gandalf knew things nobody else did, and Frodo/Sam moved the ring. None of them were the same, but they all contributed about equally to the story.

LotR would have been pretty dull if Gandalf had just teleported to Mordor and dropped the ring in before teleporting back, wouldn't it? Or if Aragorn had destroyed Isengard, carried the ring, killed the Witch-King, smote the Balrog etc all by himself.

>>46507454
>>46507463
Actually, if you hit him out of Elk, he'd probably go into Giant Snake. It grapple/restrains on hit (no fucking save either, you need to spend actions on your own turn to break it), which would hose the fighter quite hard.

>>46507454
>Which is Huge so you can't trip it and has 42 HP and 14 AC
Eh, I've still got decent odds to kill it, since an average 8th level Druid has 63 HP, plus 42 is 105, which leaves 3 damage left over (and that's after completely forgetting about my Style, which slightly ups expected damage output as well).

Though, against a giant elk, I probably would scrap the GWM just to make sure I can hit, so it might take me two rounds to kill him.

>>46505046
I've hear of that "Gestalt levels" can really help.
Basically once you hit Level 11 of a martial class you gain one level of a spell casting class automatically, then another at level 12 and so on.

>>46507203
I wish I could. I'm stuck with sticking to half-casters and casters if I want to have fun during combat. I don't see why they couldn't have implemented a "basic" character archetype for each class (like 4e Essentials) alongside different archetypes that used powers and features in an interesting way.

>>46507519
>>LotR would have been pretty dull if Gandalf had just teleported to Mordor and dropped the ring in before teleporting back, wouldn't it? Or if Aragorn had destroyed Isengard, carried the ring, killed the Witch-King, smote the Balrog etc all by himself.
Neither of them are powerful enough to do this and even though Gandalf was an angel he wasn't allowed to use most of his powers.

There are plenty of examples in Tolkien where other "classes" or races simply outclass fucking everything else. Look at Elves in general compared to humans. Read the Silmarillion for example.

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>>46507491
>Not running a campaign setting where Arcane Magic - the same thing that had fucking Vecna be a thing in Dungeons and Dragons be like, a thing - isn't closely monitored.
Well, I fucked that sentence profoundly.

Still, nonchalantly using magic in the settings I played in might fly in a smaller village where you don't really plan on showing your face again, but yeah, going into a wealthier city that doesn't have Mos Eisley standards? The guards will probably have means to detect when someone's using magic in the city, and they will probably not like it.
Magic shouldn't be something you can just casually do without a permit, or a high enough esteemed rank within the local community that no one will question if you're doing the right thing.

>>46507457
This is what Fighters do. They fight.
If you are in a situation where you are squaring off in a straight up duel with a Fighter of equal level, the odds are not in your favour. Running in as Bear form was a dumb thing to do.

Could've just shapeshifted and flown away. The Fighter can't do that.

This is also because of the fact PCs in general are more fragile than they are versatile.

>>46507097
A druid wouldn't be flying unless he turned into a bird (which usually means a lot less HP) You could do pretty much the same thing with a longbow and sharpshooter instead of GWM anyway (I think it's slightly less damage, but 2 higher attack in general), so it really doesn't matter

Also shield is wizard shit, and you can only maintain concentration as an animal. Shield isn't really a guarantee to take no damage though

>>46507454
>Can you give an example?

Beginning with Dungeon Survival Guide and wilderness Survival Guide. 3e has some rather nice terrain focused books as well, Dungeonscape and Frostfell, and to a lesser extent Sandstorm, although there is combative stuff there as well. I don't particularly like 3e but I love those books.

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Why not just be a fighter who can also do spells?

>>46507457
>the issue is that there are no fucking counters to how strong they made Martials now because AC is bounded and hard to boost to high enough levels to stop shit like 300 damage in a turn.
>if you're flying he can't reach you
>casters have vs save spells, so they don't have to deal with AC at all
>you can just be an abjurer have have an insanely large amount of bonus HP in your ward

>>46507164
Well at level 8 the druid is a polar bear and has 20str so your first prone attempt is going to fail more often then it succeeds, it also has 42 hp and ac 12 your naked to hit bonus is +8 so if you power attack you really only have a +3 to hit which means the expected value of your swing is about 16.5damage, so you will kill the bear on the third swing then deal damage to the druid, after that's done he will cast heat metal on you and then turn in to a polar bear again with his second wild shape.

>>46507603
>This is what Fighters do. They fight.
And like I said, there are very few ways to counter them.

In 3.5 you had to build specifically to fuck casters up.

In 5e you just fuck everything up if you pick champion or BM. no investment or anything required.

>>46507554
Sounds like you just have a shitty group.

My group spent one entire session just role-playing and putzing around town. It was great.

>>46507521
That depends. If I do it in one turn, he won't have a chance to go into anything else. If I don't, then he still has to hit me... and I, unlike the Druid, do have a high AC.

Even then, though, all you've done is turn this into a slightly more even fight. I can probably still hit the snake even with disadvantage, thanks to crap AC's on most beasts, and he's got a lot of hit points to work through, especially considering he has to get past my AC just to get at those hit points.

That said, though, a beast-form Druid is probably the easiest caster for a Fighter to deal with. Other casters are tougher, and take more wily measures to deal with if I can't win initiative and just murder them in the face on round one. I've got a pretty good track record in taking out mages with my martials due to good tactics, but it's definitely more of a toss-up when it's a "real" mage and not just some dude in a bear suit.

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>Okay gang, let's play a fun game of Dungeons and Dragons!
>Yeah!
>What are you gonna play in this fun game, Billy Everyplayer?
>I'm gonna play a heroic knight!
>Alrighty! Hope you have fun sitting on the sidelines while the wizard does everything better!
>what
>Isn't that fun?

>>46507634
This is impossible in 5e.

At least anything that isn't a joke.

>>46507634
So a caster.

>>46507667
That's quite the odd conclusion. I've had lots of fun roleplaying every type of character. I'm talking about in-combat options.

>>46507662
And this is a problem?

>>46507634
Because in class-based systems that usually means you're less good at fighting or spell casting than a designated fighter or spell casting, and since casters have the broadest number of options, both in and out of combat, and competitive, if not overwhelming damage, you're just a worse caster who totes around a sword.

>>46507702
There's tons of ways to have front line caster types in 5th that work

>>46507647
Sure, he can fly (and get shot). Of course, this takes up his concentration, and concentration is used to deliver his spells that end the encounter.

Any concentration based spell used on defense is almost always a losing proposition, as the monsters will just attack your allies while you make yourself less relevant.

>>46507716
>And this is a problem?
Yes.

If you could counter it then it wouldn't be that big of an issue but as it stands, I don't think druids can wildshape into a bird and still cast spells at you, and wizards are neutered to all hell with concentration.

>>46507581
>Neither of them are powerful enough to do this and even though Gandalf was an angel he wasn't allowed to use most of his powers.

Which is exactly the bloody point. None of them were able to solve the plot single-handedly because the fellowship was a group where everyone had similar levels of ability. If one person was strong enough to make everyone else redundant as they went off to Mordor alone, the story would've been boring as all hell.

In fact, LotR is a good example of a group with diverse abilities, but equal in contribution. Balanced doesn't mean everyone's the same, it means everyone is equally important to the party's succeeding. Merry and Pippin were needed to stop Saruman, Sam and Frodo were needed to carry the ring while Gandalf was needed to tell them what needed to be done. Boromir was needed to defend the fellowship while Aragorn was needed to lead them, and both Gimli and Legolas were needed at Helms Deep and at Mordor, where they allowed Sam and Frodo to complete the quest.

>>46507713
Well, then that's your problem. Figure it out instead of just complaining about it.

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>>46506999
>Granted, but let's dispel once and for all with this fiction that Mike Mearls doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing. Mearls is undertaking a systematic effort to change this fandom, to make tabletop games more like vidya.

>>46507764
And this is a problem?

>>46507700
That's not a thing in 5e anymore. Sorry to burst your bubble of condescending bullshit, but Wizards just don't have the ability to substitute for every other class anymore. They can bypass one check now and then, but in general, most spells that support another class's role are best used on that other class.

A very basic example: Invisibility doesn't make you better at sneaking, it just allows you to sneak without having cover. Better to put it on the Rogue with their high Stealth than try to sneak as a mage and fail your check. If your mage did invest in Stealth... well, they still won't be as good at it as the Rogue (with a higher Dexterity and double proficiency), but you've invested character resources into filling that role, so that's not a problem.

>>46507702
Yeah, nah. The EK's spells let him do a few things fighters have issues with (forced movement and defending others) and is very competitive when compared to the champion. The Bladesinger is also a pretty good competitor with specialist wizards.

>hurr if you want class balance go play a video game!

Where did all these know nothings get the idea that classes are equally capable in video games? Do they think they just fall off the tree perfectly matched for each other instead of needing constant attention and tweaking?

>>46506364
First of all, let me say that you're missing the point. Let me spell it out for you.

MARTIALS AND CASTERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO CONTRIBUTE EQUALLY TO THE PARTY.

Let me put it this way. Imagine you're just getting started in a game, and you decide to play a wizard. Not because you believe wizards are strongest or anything, just because you want to play a bumbling academic and the wizard is your best option. Now, later in the game, you run across a group of enemies. "All right," you say, "I'll spend a round charging up my spell, you two watch my back, and then I should be able to take out that guy. Then, I'll use this, which should let you two take out those other ones. You two cover that other guy, and rogue, make sure nobody's sneaking up behind us!"

Douchecock McGee the fighter looks at you like you're retarded. "That's stupid, I've got this in half the time," he says. "I use my Blade Shield ability and start walking towards them." The other players, veterans of the system, all sigh and say something along the lines of "Well, I make sure they all walk into Douchecock's character." You watch as, in just a few rounds, with you just sitting with your thumb up your ass, the entire encounter is trivialized as Douchecock takes no damage and the enemies are forced into his whirling blender of sword.

This is the problem with your scenario, because why does anyone have to come up with a complex plan if "I do X" works better? Why does Sokka need to come up with plans if Aang can just fling any enemy into the stratosphere and let him fall? Why does BMX bandit even exist if Angel Summoner knows exactly what to do at any given time, because it's always "throw angels at the problem until it goes away?" You try to have fun when you may as well not exist - in fact, if you didn't exist, everyone would work better because they don't have to protect your useless ass for anything.

>>46507764
Its not a problem at all. Fighters have obscenely terrible saving throws against the sort of things that take you out of the fight, and can't kill SoL slinging abominations before they can pop SoL.

>>46507713
I'm not sure how someone could think that's what the solution should be.

>>46507801
>And this is a problem?
>it's impossible to counter a fighter without simply running away or putting environmental hazards in the mix
yes it's a problem. it's as much of a problem as unbounded and unchecked wizards were in 3.5. people bitching about muh levels should imply equal ability, well that's not true with martials in 5e when they can shoot or hit you in the face until you're dead and there's little to nothing you can do to stop them.

>>46507805
compared to "guy who casts spells and hits stuff good" types from older editions (abjurant champion, swiftblade, psychic warrior, etc), no. 5e versions of "spellsword" suck ass.

>>46507618
>Beginning with Dungeon Survival Guide and wilderness Survival Guide.

Haven't read them, but it sounds like they'd be similar to the 4e Dark Sun environmental rules. 4e is also absolutely in love with terrain.

>>46507804
Then rogue should have powers or features that enhance their abilities in interesting ways.

>>46507754
>and get shot
>by the Strength fighter
How is he going to do that with no dex? By throwing a spear with a max range of 60 (at a penalty because of that range) while the caster happily chucks firebolts with twice that range (with no penalty), not to mention other, more powerful spells.

>concentration
Sure, unless he's a dragon sorc, who, you know, just grows wings as a class feature.

>>46507764
The original poster used a PvP scenario to show that Fighters are good at fighting, and better at it than a Druid and can probably take out your average caster in a straight up fight. Hence; Fighter.

As mentioned earlier, PCs are generally quite fragile. But they have limited resources through an adventuring day. And that's what you're here for, Adventuring.

In that regard, Fighters do what they're supposed to: Act as a frontline blender. But that's a large percentage of all they can do, every other class, potentially barring the Ranger, still holds up just as well. 5e has been put through its paces quite thoroughly and its a hell of a lot more evened out than the mess that was 3rd.

>>46507804
Or put it on the bard who is just as good as the rogue at sneaking but is also a full caster.

>>46507838
>lose initiative
>die because there's nothing you can do to stop the facerape of a fighter rushing at you

>>46507867
>compared to older editions

Please stop posting.

>>46507867
>5e versions of "spellsword" suck ass.

Everything is lower powered in 5e, casters most especially. 3e comparisons are stymied by the fact that virtually all "gish" types are just for fun and strictly worse than a full caster equivalent.

In general, if you bring up 3e as an example of how to do any variant of hitdudes right you're probably retarded.

>it's as much of a problem as unbounded and unchecked wizards were in 3.5.

You're totally ignorant. Nothing can be that bad, period.

>>46507702
>>46507708
>>46507730
>be Dual-Wielding eldritch knight
>take my action surge, teleport 30ft
>make like however many fucking attacks attacks with two longswords (which are probably magic and with additional damage and with an elemental weapon spell or some shit on them) and then cast a spell
>oh and anything I hit now has disadvantage against my spells

way more fun than boring pure wizard who does nothing but sit back and cast fireball and chain lightning and brag about how superior his powergaming is

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>Play 4e
>Never have to worry about balance-issues as blatant as 3.5/5e
>Have fun in general
>mfw

>>46507353
>LotR would have been a pretty dull movie if the fellowship was just straight up 5 boromir.

Two Towers/Return of the King are mainly about two balanced parties, one composed of low-level hobbit rogues (Frodo/Sam/Gollum), the other composed of mid-level fighters (Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli). Merry and Pippin are a party for a while - two low-level hobbit rogues. Merry ends up with Eowyn and helps her kill the Witch-King with a sneak attack. Pippin ends up being Gandalf's sidekick, and as the junior member of the only completely unbalanced party he's left with little to do except run errands for Gandalf.

Fellowship of the Ring is all over the place. I imagine if you were playing a hobbit, the most fun part of FotR might be the beginning, where the hobbits have to evade the Nazgul by themselves. When Aragorn shows up the game would probably become boring, in the same way it gets boring when the DM introduces an overpowered DMPC. The moments that really challenge the hobbits, like Shelob and Cirith Ungol, come in the later movies when they are forced to deal with problems alone. If Gandalf has tagged along to Mordor, that would have been far less tense and interesting - he would have dealt with it himself, and the hobbits would have done nothing, assuming they didn't just take a different, easier route into Mordor, with likewise boring results. In other words, if you're playing a hobbit, the best parts of LotR are the parts where you are partied with other hobbits.

But that's irrelevant because TRPGs aren't movies. Not every character in a movie needs to be doing things and having fun on a regular basis. Everyone in a TRPG does.

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>>46503708
>4 attacks per round
>crit on 18 if you go champion or have maneuvers that are pretty bullshit too
>Extra feats/ability bumps
>Best saving throws
>not MAD at all

>Martials are bad

>>46507926
Does an EK in 5e get 8th or 9th level spells? No? Then he's shit.

>>46507906
If you had a fighter in front of you, maybe that wouldn't be a problem.
Now where would a PC in a Dungeons and Dragons game possibly find an individual of a specific archetype who could assist them, as if they were part of the same group? I just don't know. Maybe nobody knows. After all, whiteroom 1v1 PvP is the only way to play the game.

>>46507898
Fighters really should have enough ability score increases to be able to do a little of both ranged and melee unless they decide to only heavily invest in one. If they do though I don't really see the problem with having a weakness there

>>46507898
>How is he going to do that with no dex?

By shooting at the guy with no armor. Throwing a spear isn't "shooting," not sure how you could think that.

>unless he's a dragon sorc,

Fucking good for him.

>>46507934
>dual-wielding EK
>no focus
>no free hand for M components
>no 4th level spells until level 19
I'm not saying EKs can't be fun, but there's absolutely no way you can say they're stronger or more versatile than a full caster.

>>46507971
You could just play a bard if EK's magic-sword ratio doesn't fit your ideal magic knight
Or a warlock
Or multiclass

>>46507979
>play 5e
>DM has hateboner for casters because muh 3.PF brain damage
>isn't a fucking idiot and makes a BM fighter for you to fight against
>immediately rushes caster because hateboner
>dead

>>46507998
>shooting
Wow? With a gun or bow he can't aim or do serious damage with because he has no dex because he's a strength fighter?

>ITT: Shitty Players

>>46507906

>wizard vs fighter fights are 50-50
>this is somehow as bad as 3e wizards, who can always win initiative and then pop no SR spells that slow you down and block LoS, or no SR SoL spells

Yeah no.

>>46507934

Okay, good for you.

>>46508034
Get a better DM.

>>46508021
My point is that you can't multiclass well enough to be a competent guy who hits things and casts spells like you could in 3.5.

You didn't even have to get 9th level spells in 3.5 to be effective because there were classes that had good enough abilities to make losing caster levels okay (swiftblade comes to mind).

5e you just can't do it. You can't be both without being as bad as a fighter 10/wizard 10 in 3.5.

>>46508034
The DM trying to kill you is a problem between you and the DM.
You'd have literally the same problem in every single game with that configuration of player and DM.
Also, it's really easy for a martial to stop someone trying to rush past them to hit the squishy.

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>>46505046
Remove cantrips from spellcasters (or at least just the ones that deal damage) and ban all of the Gish archetypes available to full casters so they can't get extra attack as full casters.
Martials' jobs will be dealing reliable at-will damage throughout the dungeon and cutting down most enemies, casters are there to fulfill whatever their class role is. Clerics are healing and support, sorcerers are nuke damage, wizards are utility and AoE, ect. ect.
>waaah my at-will consistent spellcasting and random martial abilities
Caster supremacy is a thing because casters always get a ton of ridiculous shit they don't need. Roles should be clearly defined in a game that uses a class system.

>>46508040
He's not going to be very good with the bow, and the wizard isn't going to be very good with his non concentration spells, its pretty much even.

>>46508041
I don't think a lot of the people arguing here actually play the game. I mean there's as much correcting as arguing here

>>46508070
>>46508095
I have yet to encounter a single 5e player or DM who doesn't hate casters.

That's the point of playing 5e, after all.

>>46507491
>balance the classes by making the setting work against some of them.

This is a non-solution.

First it requires you're playing in a specific setting, probably a homebrew. Second, it requires a specific element always be in that setting (namely that certain classes are hated or sanctioned). Third it immediately stops working when that social stigma or state control is no longer an issue, which is easily achieved since a party can work in the shadows whenever it wants to, unless the DM constantly railroads them out into the open.

>>46507595
>using any magic makes the guards come after you

Assuming the guards have the means to track who used it and where, then what you've done here is make spellcasters choose between being dead weight or being a huge liability. That's not balancing them.

>>46508102
>nerf magic even more!
hang yourself immediately.

>>46508109
>still not addressing that some flying casters will still be able to concentrate because they have wings

>>46508087
>My point is that you can't multiclass well enough to be a competent guy who hits things and casts spells like you could in 3.5.

And the minmaxed combat monster can't pop same level=CR enemies in one round like you could in 3.5.
And the minmaxed uberwizard can't be flying, invisible, and pop SoLs like you could in 3.5.

Mostly fighter but better: EK
Mostly wizard but better: Bladesinger
Does both great, with full casting: Bard and druid

>>46508102
An elf wizard with a bow is literally doing more damage by shooting that bow than with his cantrips until like 11.

And by 11 he will have enough low level spells that you won't run out (and the bow will still be quite OK anyway).

Also, you have just effectively removed warlocks.

>>46508172
>EK
>better than BM
By what metric?

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>>46508152
Go fuck yourself wizard scum.

>>46508172
>And the minmaxed combat monster can't pop same level=CR enemies in one round like you could in 3.5.
>And the minmaxed uberwizard can't be flying, invisible, and pop SoLs like you could in 3.5.
>waahahhhhhh if you allow literally every fucking book and spell and feat in 3.5 everything is overpowered
no.

>Mostly fighter but better: EK
>Mostly wizard but better: Bladesinger
>Does both great, with full casting: Bard and druid
No to all of these as well. A BM fighter will just wreck all of them without any chance of countering.

>>46508159

It doesn't need to be addressed at all. That's their thing. 5e casters often have nice things centered around a single focus. Compared to A) druids, bards, abjurers & bladesingers (none of which who need to fear melee), B) enchanters & necromancers (who can shit on the premise of the game) a flying dragon sorcerer is nowhere near close.

In most environments the dragon sorcerer either can't avoid melee via flight because there won't be enough ceiling space... or he can, and earthbound foes will just attack party members instead. Strong defensive bonuses like that only matter if they're party wide, which they aren't.

>>46508102
You don't really seem to have any idea what you're talking about, and just really hate casters

>>46508246
A BM fighter most likely won't even hit the Bladesinger reliably until it runs out of shields.

It's also not a PvP competition, so it's kind of a moot point.

>>46508246
>>waahahhhhhh if you allow literally every fucking book and spell and feat in 3.5 everything is overpowered
>no.

Are you a cretin? Solid Fog, Improved Invisibility Flight, Glitterdust, Forcecage, all are 3.5 core. You god damn retard.

>>46508257
>5e casters often have nice things centered around a single focus.
That's not true at all. Yes, their general power level has been reigned in, but they're still swiss army knives at their core.

>>46508292
The only one of those that is really overpowered is Forcecage and it's a fucking 7th level spell.

>>46508132
That sounds like you have a shitty gaming community. That's your problem.

>>46508278
>>It's also not a PvP competition, so it's kind of a moot point.
Your DM has never made you fight other people with character levels?

>suddenly your party of 4 is approached by 4 BM fighters of the same level. What do you do?
You die or run.

>>46508133
First part:
I said in cities. Wealthy ones.
How many wizard based scams do you think need go by, before the local merchant guild starts demanding that the use of magic be monitored?
This isn't even a question.
There are people out there who could walk up to a wealthy merchant family's shop, walk in invisible and then teleport out with half their wealth, and you're telling me that the law enforcement has no answers to this?
How are they going to figure out who did this after the fact?
Do you seriously think that no one would do this, with no chance of reprecautions because everything has to be allowed, because that is how it's nice and fair in game sense?

Guess what, it shouldn't be.
Infact, here's a thought: Have your arcane caster try and do something about that! Bam, you actually have a goal! Try to change legislation, make your character try and sway people in power to make laws less strict, if you believe they are too much. You don't need to derail the entire campaign for this, chances are you'll be doing favours for those nobles anyway sooner or later.
Or, maybe try and become someone who can do magic. Earn a permit to use magic, become a respected figure, someone the guards will accept doing magic. When they show up, just have the character explain the situation and show his permit and bam it's all fine, or maybe even - this is crazy - work with the guard?
Think of something. Adapt. Don't just bullrush through the easiest path because magic allows you. Accept that there are consequences for weaving in your hand the fabric of reality itself.

On the second part:
>using any magic makes guards come
I didn't say that.
You know how you can actually detect the strength of magic?
There's a difference between spells that scorch the beard off of someone's chin, or make for good parlour tricks in a small square for tips or distraction, and spells that can have someone transform into a viper and bite someone before switching to an eagle flying out the window.

>>46507214
Why not both? There's nothing in your post that wouldn't be greatly improved by being able to meaningfully contribute without having a convoluted reason why your character is totally useful and not just some asshole with a sword. You use the idea of giving the fighter bonuses to lore roles, but if that's how you're going to solve the problem, why not just give the fighter better ways to contribute in the first place so that he doesn't need a narrative-driven reason to be relevant outside of combat? Now, this isn't to say backstories deeply ingrained in the history of the world are bad, quite the opposite, in fact. But you have to acknowledge that when the first thing that comes to mind to make the fighter valuable is the dm saying that he's valuable, the fighter probably isn't that great a class. Again, not dismissing your approach, but having a mechanical basis for the fighter being relevant as well as a narrative one could only improve matters, in my mind.

>>46507595
Basically this.

If Arcane magic isn't a religious taboo in the main setting punishable by death via a shadowy order of crazed, over-zealous battle priests that will stop at nothing to bring down the hammer of justice on heathens then you're doing it wrong.

Bonus points if said religious order are also highly xenophobic towards everyone but humans and enslave/execute half orcs/elves on sight.

>>46504730
I don't want to be a peasant with a sharp stick, I want to be Hercules.

>>46507595
>>46508399
>>46508376
Play Dragon Age RPG if that's what you want, faggots. Magic has always been a huge part of D&D and Wizard Guilds exist and have huge influence.

Go live out your Templar anti-magic fantasy in a different game more suited for it.

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>>46507832
>This butthurt
>Goes ape over suggestions on how to make the best of the worst case scenario
>And CAPTCHA thinks a blurred license plate is a street sign

>>46508200
>if I choose this specific race for this specific thing and get my dex/str high enough
Nah.
>And by 11 he will have enough low level spells that you won't run out
Yeah, even with my nerf they're still probably better than martials. I should think up some more, even more debilitating nerfs.
>Also, you have just effectively removed warlocks.
Warlocks would get a free pass since they're supposed to be all about short rests and at-will stuff.

>>46508371
NPCs don't get character levels. They sometimes get features that are similar to class features, but they don't actually get classes or levels.

>>46508456
Your DM sucks if he has never faced you off against an enemy with character levels.

So ignoring the fact that your DM is shit, what do you do against 4 equal level BM fighters?

>>46508316
>That's not true at all. Yes, their general power level has been reigned in

And they're less powerful than they've ever been before. Let that sink in. This is coming from an OSR guy who in general only tolerates OSR gaming. Not only can you stack multiple concentration keyword equivalent spells in 1e, but they usually gave a hefty inits bonus, and in many cases even disallowed saves.

>but they're still swiss army knives at their core.

No one cares except people still traumatized over 3e. They have one way to particularly matter in a fight, concentration keyword spells. These are similar to, but much weaker than those of prior editions,

If being able to do stuff in and out of combat hurts your feelings, look with askance at the rogue, not the wizard.

>>46508342
Yeah, no. Glitterdust has a huge AoE, is a will save (good luck passing it), no SR, and... you're out of the fight if it hits. Solid Fog doesn't even allow a saving throw and you're out of the fight with it on you.

>>46508494
Your DM sucks for trying to make challenges using the objectively less powerful PC options rather than the NPC options that are either the same or better (Depending on the option).

>>46508435
But magic and secret magic societies still exists in said setting and are in active conflict/competition with said organization of religious nutjobs, it's just a matter of them being underground in the main human settlements. There're still magical civilizations, you just wont find it where humans following the creed of that particular religious order live.

>>46508494
>>46508371
The game doesn't have any rules at all for NPCs with class levels. It has nothing to do with DMs being good or bad. If the DM homebrews adversaries just to ruin one player's day, then its fair to say he's a shit DM.

>>46508527
>what is blind fight

>>46508435
The only one saying magic should be outright banned is this joker. >>46508399

If you seriously think that the active rulers of a setting (even more so the authorities on magic like the Guilds you mentioned) shouldn't keep magic users in check to some degree, making sure they're not fucking up the world the way colourful characters like Vecna did, then I'm not sure what the hell people in your setting are smoking.

Wizard Guilds are fine. Hell, they probably are one of the main sources of anti-wizard enforcement. It's probably them who provide cities with the tools necessary to prevent other wizards from causing crimes. The point is that just casually doing bullshit like >>46507400 suggested where a wizard can "mind control people and turn invisible, flying through an upper story window" likely into what's supposed to be a well protected room, shouldn't be something that the setting has no measures against, because if Magic IS a prominent thing (which it is) then these issues have come up a hundred times in the past and the PC wizard is not some freaking great genius, finally discovering that magic can be abused.

>>46508399
The samiest, most boring shit. There was already an X-Men. I've already played and ran all the "wizards are the good guys fighting against evil witch hunting theocrats" campaigns I care to.

As it turns out muggles bullying wizards doesn't turn out very well, and they're fully justified.

>>46508553
>If the DM homebrews adversaries just to ruin one player's day, then its fair to say he's a shit DM.
it's not just for 1 player. it doesn't matter what your party composition is; if you are faced with the same number of equal level BM fighters you are going to die.

You've never played a game where your DM has ever thrown human enemies at you that aren't "NPC" shit classes, but actual classes so the enemies aren't able to be steamrolled?

You've never been faced with rogue (actual rogue levels!!) assassins?

Sounds like your DM takes the book way too seriously.

>>46508570

Something of no avail.

>>46508507
>OSR
You can't draw equivalencies between those systems and newer ones for many reasons, chiefly among them that the creators of those games knew casters were stronger, so the exp they needed to level up was higher. For example, by the time the AD&D 2e Thief has reached the 20th level, (2,200,000 exp) the Druid is only 14th level (with 3,300,000 exp to go.)

>>46508617
Sounds like the weird made up DM you're talking about doesn't understand how 5e works. NPCs get abilities, not classes. And those abilities are good enough to stand up to an entire party of player characters of an appropriate level. This is not 3.X.

>>46508570
A feat that doesn't actually help you pinpoint enemies, which is the main downside of being blinded.

>>46508617
>"NPC" shit classes
Well no, since there aren't NPC classes and NPCs don't get classes at all.

>>46508441
If you only hand the caster a crossbow (available to fucking everyone), it'll still have the same effect.

Also, what do you suggest as a secondary stat for a caster over DEX (or possibly STR)? Druids can safely dump physicals I guess if they focus on animal forms, but everyone else will at least want DEX for AC and intiative (or if they are dip friendly STR for heavier armor).

>>46508627
So you're upset that wizards can blind people with low will saves? like fighters can kill people with low HP/AC? perhaps use one of those feats you get as a fighter should be used to increase your will saves, like a wizard would do to increase his spells to increase his AC.

and a 20ft radius isn't "huge"

>>46508577
>The only one saying magic should be outright banned is this joker.

Thats sort of jumping the gun a bit. There's a level of leeway from the theocratic authorities in my setting for trusted individuals in the form of a tightly controlled license system. Even if they publically deplore magic, they still need specialist consultants on arcane matters, all tightly under the thumb of the church, of course. This is why there's a truce and certain level of cooperation with the largest underground cabal of magic users throughout the human suzerainty.

>>46508390
I feel you, but personally I consider the narrative side of a character more important.

That being said, when it comes to combat, dungeoneering, etc the martials always found a use in my groups.
They usually mouth off with the enemy while the spellcaster either creates traps, divines the location of additional enemies, traps in the upcoming room the martials should be aware of, and the rest take up positions.

Usually infact, it tends to be the martials who take the center stage in fights even in higher levels at my table, mostly because that's the way it's been at level 1, and the characters have little reason to change it up. The wizard doesn't assume himself automatically the bringer of damnation just because statistically that's what he is. If the player played that character as someone who looks out for the best opportunity to boost his companions' chance up until then, he's going to do the same. And if the martial expressed that he takes pride in fighting with honour, then the spell caster isn't going to jump in and eradicate everyone in the martial's path just because it's more convenient.

>>46508668
That's not particularly correct. I call to the stand my first witness, page 96 of the DMG.

>VILLAINOUS CLASS OPTIONS
>You can use the rules in the Player's Handbook to create NPCs with classes and levels, the same way you create player characters...

There are other mentions of NPCs with player classes as well, but you probably wouldn't know that, because you've never actually picked up any of the books.

>>46508617
>if you are faced with the same number of equal level BM fighters you are going to die.

An army of melee oriented faggots with hilariously poor wisdom and reflex saves. I'm shaking.

>You've never played a game where your DM has ever thrown human enemies at you that aren't "NPC" shit classes

The NPC types aren't "shit classes." An archmage (CR 12) is NOT someone any level 12 party will take lightly. PvP arena is not the One True Way To Play 5e.

>so the enemies aren't able to be steamrolled

Read up on the CR system. It works just fine.

All else being said, here's the reason you're objectively wrong: in a game that has something like 27 different gradients of difficulty or more, (20 levels of CR plus 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, a few below that, a few above that, etc.) arguing about a DM taking it easy or roughly on you on the basis of what he throws at you is total nonsense. An enemy is a given CR.

An "actual assassin" or BM is not going to be more of a threat than whatever the DM was going to throw at you anyway, because he's going to understand the CR system and throw the enemy at you accordingly.

If your argument is that the homebrewing DM doesn't know the rules very well (quite possible) and will throw an enemy at you that's been mistakenly given a lower CR, then that's not an argument, that's just a retard for a DM.

Any DM can intentionally or unintentionally throw too tough or too weak enemies at the PCs.

>>46508756
>the theocratic authorities in my setting for trusted individuals in the form of a tightly controlled license system.
Which is literally Dragon Age and you should fuck off to that game if that's what you want.

File: 1438509693364.jpg (87KB, 380x360px) Image search: [Google]

87KB, 380x360px

>>46503708
>currently Paladin 2/Favored Soul 8
>Variant Human with shield master, tough, and war caster
>stand front lines with fighter bro while I sling spells with full casting progression
>stand in front of spell casters defending them with melee abilities or control spells
>effective at range because sorcerer or in melee with paladin smites

Ironically, the only person having more fun than me is the Monk

>>46504755

It's 2016.

Why the fuck would anyone even play D&D anymore? There are so many much better alternatives it's not even funny.

>>46508756
Ah, well that's what it sounded like, but hey. I'm not in your group so I can't right tell you if it works or if it doesn't.