Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

First for BRAVO HIROSHI

>>46389861
How plausible would it be for Sylvanas, with her vanilla-era personality, to become the new Lich King instead of Bolvar? For the purpose of releasing the saner undead from Scourge control.

It's a plot point I keep mulling over, but I'm not sure what I'd have to adjust about the plotline to make it reasonable. Offing the dreadlord is probably step 1.

>>46389931
she would have to wear the crown instead of arthas.

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>>46389958
Thank you, that was very helpful. It all makes so much sense now. You have shown me the light.

>>46389931
She wants to, not to release any undead, but to have even more minions slaved to her will.

These threads are slow as fuck now

What's worrying is that I'm starting to recognize several of you anons

>Nazgrim
>Trollbane
>Whitemane
>Tyrion

Best Horsemen lineup

>>46390416
It's still early in America. Give it a few hours and a few more people will show up.
Give it 10 hours for middle schools to get out and these threads will fly by with all the bitching and whining about "Muh faction is better! Yours is shit being favored by Blizz!" and "Garrosh/Sylvanas dindu nuffin!" and "METZEN!!!/KOSAAAAK!!!"

>>46390456
>KOSAAAAK
Don't forget that guy crying about phlogiston

>>46390456
>implying hatred of Metzen/Kosak is childish
>implying Garrosh was in the wrong
>implying the Horde haven't been favored by Blizz since Vanilla

Not sure if shitposting...

>>46390416

The only one I consistently recognize is that one retard who immediately tells people he disagrees with to kill themselves and that they're worthless pieces of shit.

Even though, from what I've seen, he's wrong most of the time. Pure fucking cancer.

>>46390487
>phlogiston
Explain?

>>46390499
Some anon in these threads is a fan of the old Warcraft RPG (which itself isn't problematic), which described the main power source of all advanced technological devices (such as tanks) as phlogiston

Now that the RPGs are not canon anymore, he's salty as fuck

>>46390490
>implying the Horde haven't been favored by Blizz since Vanilla
>since Vanilla

I think you mean Cataclysm, my dearest wrathbaby.

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>>46390438
kek i confused tyrion with tyrion lannister from Asoiaf.
Might be a cool idea.

>>46390499
In the old Warcraft RPG from 2003, it's the magical, gaseous substance that powers all the dwarf and gnome tech.
It's never mentioned in WoW except one single grey item's fluff text. And the tech is treated as "it just works."
The guy was getting all buttmad that WoW has ignored that, and quite a bit of things made up for the RPG. We were telling him he was being petty because WoW changes things dramatically all the time from Blizzard's own material and has no imperative to stay true to an RPG that wasn't even canon when it was made.

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>>46390493
>one retard who immediately tells people he disagrees with to kill themselves and that they're worthless pieces of shit.
That sounds like a whole category of 4chan posters rather than a single person though

>>46390527
That just seems better than the current standard, though. And if there's never any indication of what powers all that tech, what's to say it isn't phlogiston stuff? I dunno, just seems better to have some throw-away term rather than no information at all.

Besides, it's not like Blizzard's own material has been much more than shit sandwiches with really good pickles since Cata. And they ran out of pickles for that batch.

I miss the Scarlet Crusade. I love me some Paladins and Priests that have gone too far in the name of revenge.

>>46390551
>what's to say it isn't phlogiston stuff?
no one argues against that, it's just that the guy is always speaking about it as if his mom was killed by a phlogiston elemental when he was a kid or something

>>46390416
I appreciate your continuous company, anon.

But I agree, threads have sort of stalled, but I guess the regulars have discussed all they feel there is to discuss and the new posters just want to talk about stuff we've already passed over.

>>46390567
I'm not sure I understand. I mean, you're more or less agreeing with him, aren't you?

>>46390565
I agree but it was time to finally kill them, they should have all died for the Cataclysm

>>46390565
I miss having to walk to instances with all this bullshit LFG teleporting there.
It was especially fun to run to Scarlet Monastery as an Alliance player on a PVP server.
There was real danger when we had to hoof it from Southshore, through Horde territory just to get to a dungeon.
And of course, we were all in our level 30s, so there were no actual hooves involved. We was walking on our own two feet.

>>46390585
I don't really give much fucks, actually. Warcraft 2 introduced oil and Warlords of Draenor referenced it again

>>46390585
He was bitching that WoW didn't even mention it. Seriously, sperging out that it wasn't discussed within WoW.
That was just one of many things from the RPG that WoW ignored that he was whining about.
He was like that guy /co/ loves to bitch about who took all the old DiC Nintendo cartoons and indelible canon and anything new that Ninendo comes up with is heresy to his preferred canon stemming from the cartoons.

>>46390602
Yeah, but oil is big and bulky and dirty. I mean, I love deiselpunk as much as the next person, but it really doesn't seem to fit gnomish tech. I can't imagine those transcombobulators and whirly-do-ma-whatsits running off of an oil-burning combustion engine. Something a little more esoteric, a little more mystical and magical seems to fit a lot better.

Sort of Newfag here.

What is relationship of Sha to the Old Gods, if any?
And are those bug people from Pandaria still devoted servants of Old Gods?

And on unrelated(?) note, what did evil(?) Nozdormu want to accomplish that he decided to fuck with time?

And finally: what's the deal with the Hyjal raid, was it entirely just case of "let's go back in time and participate in this clusterfuck", or is that thing ever mentioned, for instance in an NPC that would have been dead if players did not help the impromptu coalition at Hyjal?

>>46390523
>Grand asscheeks of justice
Please, I already fapped today and I'm trying to cut back.

M-maybe just a little...

>>46390565
I actually miss them as well, even though I RP'd so hard against them you could call it obsessive.

Looking back, the Crusade was the very thing the alliance needed and could've been such an interesting alliance-affiliated faction to open up more PVP in the Plaguelands against the Forsaken.

I'm pretty sure they'd also been a great prestige class for paladins in a TTRPG or in general with much more SMITE.

>>46390641
I actually used to RP in a Scarlet Crusade-themed guild. Everyone wanted us to be their villains.

>>46390548

Yeah, but he's like the only one in this thread that comes right off the bat doing that. Like, immediately starts with those insults over a minor disagreement. Just needlessly hostile.

Thing is, this usually prompts the people he's responding to to sink to his level and respond with similar shitposting and ruining much of the thread.

It's awful.

>>46390625
>What is relationship of Sha to the Old Gods, if any?
Created by Y'shaarj's dying breath as a curse to Pandas forever.
Basically his lingering essence powered by emotion.
>And are those bug people from Pandaria still devoted servants of Old Gods?
Yes. They flat out tell you this when you do quests for them and that's why they join Garrosh when he's powered by up by the heart of Y'shaarj.
>did evil(?) Nozdormu want to accomplish that he decided to fuck with time?
Basically he went crazy and decided to travel through time stopping all bad things from happening. Sort of a going back in time to assassinate Hitler.
But there's no telling what repercussions theses good intentions would entail and so the Bronze Dragons of the relative present must fight to keep the timeline un-fucked by future Nozdormu's meddling.
They kinda fail when it comes to Garrosh and that's how we ended up with WoD.

>>46390625
>And finally: what's the deal with the Hyjal raid, was it entirely just case of "let's go back in time and participate in this clusterfuck"
Yes. That's why the Caverns of Time exists. To give players a chance to experience key moments in Warcraft history from the ground floor, as it were.
It was underutilized and now sits completely forgotten.

>>46390625
>What is relationship of Sha to the Old Gods, if any?
If I remember well, the seven Shas were born out of the seven severed heads of Yshaarj, an old god

>what did evil(?) Nozdormu want to accomplish that he decided to fuck with time?
generic Blizzard-brand CORRUPTION

>>46390621
>implying that Gnomish tech isn't run by enslaved uranium elementals

>>46390625
When the Titans fought the Old Gods initially, one of them picked up the Old God Y'shaarj and squished him, which had bits and pieces of the Old God splattered all over Pandaria. The Sha are the manifestation of negative emotions brought to life by those bits, mainly the Heart of Y'shaarj which was later unearthed by Garrosh for MOAR POWER.

Corrupted/evil/insane Nozdormu wanted to undo Azeroth in its current state by altering crucial moments in the timeline in order to prevent some other even worse reality. So he attempted to assassinated Thrall when he was still a nobody slave trying to escape, but also attempting to never open the Dark Portal because either of these events ment the interference of the Orcish Horde, and preventing the greenskins from being a unified force was apparently crucial in averting the apocalypse.

Don't know about the other two points.

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>>46390641

Alright, cheers friends.

>>46390684
>They kinda fail when it comes to Garrosh and that's how we ended up with WoD.
>>46390784
>attempting to never open the Dark Portal because either of these events ment the interference of the Orcish Horde, and preventing the greenskins from being a unified force was apparently crucial in averting the apocalypse.

Speaking of which, Warlords of Draenor opened an interesting can of worms. What happened to Azeroth in the altered timeline, seeing as it apparently never got orc'd? What are its dragon aspects, old gods and undead up to? What are the odds of it being setting of another expansion?

And is there only one all-encompassing demonic Legion, or do both tapped realities have their own? We had two Velens, it stands to reason there would be two Sargerases as well.

>>46390878
There is no alternative Azeroth, the spell created another Draenor that linked to the current Azeroth but it didn't created a second Azeroth

Also the Burning Legion of the main universe was apparently somehow able to infiltrate that new Draenor as well, it didn't had a Legion of its own, so it's the same Archimonde we fought and killed

>>46390911
So it didn't open a gate to alternate universe but merely replicated one world?
I suppose that is much easier to manage.

>>46390927
well at least that's how I remember it, but considering I didn't played all the way up to Hellfire Citadel I may be wrong

>>46390878
According to the Chronicles, demons exist singularly across all timelines. Sargeras however is a corrupted titan, so he's not really a demon and it's possible there exist multiple Sargerases across the timelines.

The demons in his employ however exist only once.

Which brings up a curious thought:
Blizzard is currently working on a "redeemed" Dreadlord whose essence is now the Light instead of the Fel. However that is outright impossible because original demons are made of Fel - They shouldn't be able to swap this very core of themselves like changing underwear. However it has also been stated that there are species in the Legion's employ who were originally mortals and later demonized through Fel exposure. This could be a potential circumvention, as their influx of magic is now another source.

However this would mean that the Nathrezim/Dreadlords had to become corrupted first by another means - Which really starts to mess up a lot of things considering they were supposed to be the ones pushing Saggy Rats over the edge after he fell into a depression as he was incapable of understanding the abhorrent evil of demons and void lords.

>>46390513
Personally I always favored the interpretation that phlogiston was a (possibly magical) catalyst that allowed for standard combustion reactions to generate greater energy than they should, allowing for things like steam tanks using engines cruder and less efficient on paper than they would have to be on earth.

All light worshipping party. Human, Draenei, Dwarf, Belf. All with completely different attitudes towards the light, all debating the philosophy of it while they fight undead and demons.

>>46391024

Well, demons existed before Saggy Rats went bad. If I remember the WC3 manual correctly, it was him given the job of wiping them out that pushed him over the edge in the first place. Suppose they could have retconned that, though.

>>46391024
It's still possible that they were the first. After all, prolonged Fel exposure without any protections can evil you up even without demons whispering in your ears. It's entirely possible that the Nathrezim were originally mortal assholes who fel'd so hard that they became demonic assholes all on their own.

Assuming Medivh never opened the dank portal and orcs never set foot in Azeroth, what would the world-breaking plagues be?
What comes to mind is Old Gods, Deathwing and the Demons.

Lich King would not exist, or he would have to be someone else.
Kalimdor would be much less developed and Night Elves would be reclusive and immortal.
Would Qiraji have become a bigger problem?

>>46391297
Dwarves and humans see the Light in the same way.

Make it human, Draenei, Gnome, Belf and Tauren

>>46391332
>Gnome Priests
REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>46391312
>Lich King would not exist, or he would have to be someone else.
The Scourge might still exist, considering the Cult of the Damned was mainly made up of tired peasants

>>46391343
Scream all you want, my frog friend

Maybe they only see the technical aspect of it

>>46391332
Add a nelf maybe?
>NE: Praise the Moon!
>T: Surely You mean praise the Sun?
>G: Yeah, mcbeef is right, moon just reflects light of the sun anyway
>H: They were taking about spiritual light, not physical
>G: Yeah, all these debates do sound like there's a lot of spirits involved
>[human punts the gnome]

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I really like this image and it fianlly clears up the convolutedness of Warcraft's magic. Why don't you guys like it without using memes and buzzwords.

>>46391369
Adventurers cant form a party of more than 5 people

Otherwise it's a raid

>>46391359
>considering the Cult of the Damned was mainly made up of tired peasants
who were tired because of the tax burden placed on them to fund Nethergarde and the internment camps

no Horde = no Knights of the Silver Hand, betrayal of the Stonemasons, massive tax raises, or Ner'zhul getting merked by Kil'jaeden, therefore eliminating all of the factors causing strife in the human kingdoms

>>46391439
To be fair human kingdoms would probably have come up with alternate causes for bullshit. We generally do. And Deathwing is still around even without Alexstrasza's breeding fetish episode.

>>46391439
uh, you're right

but Joy Harvey here >>46391457 is right too, there would probably have been a civil war anyway

Hell, Stormwind nearly fell to gnoll raiders merely a century before the dark portal

>>46391297
>The philosophy

You see, I would have loved for the light to remain just that - A philosophy of the humans, capable of stimulating the arcane aether and thus allowing for channelling of spells. Sure, it ventured dangerously deep into "Jedi-Sith divide" territory when things like "the shadow" came up, but it had so much more impact. It would also have led to a great deal of ambiguity, making parties like your setup all the more interesting:

>Human believes in the original dogma of the three virtues, essentially remaining a diplomat-chaplain
>Draenei who has witnessed the fall of nearly his entire species must maintain a hopeful perspective, which becomes their catalyst focus to channel their own inherent magical abilities, so he remains a mage but with a deeply spiritual or even religious motivation
>Dwarf views the Light as an innate spiritual gift of the Titan creators which must be honed in order to be used for a greater purpose, becoming a introspective monk in the process
>Blood Elf views the Light as a form of firemagic, possibly originating from the sun, thus another tool that can be channelled for any task, and through their righteous fury being utilised as a weapon of vengeance, making them a firey preacher and crusader

>>46391457
it would take some serious shit to cause as much turmoil as the Horde's invasion and Terenas and the Stormwind nobles' bungling of the rebuild, the Burning Legion might as well just invade on their own at that point

>>46391431
Maybe Gnome can be someone's pet
That would still require one person to go though. Maybe Belf and Draenei can rotate in and out of party because they can't stand each other (perhaps because it's pre Liadrin doing http://rule34.xxx/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=421073 (NSFW)?)

>>46391512
>there would probably have been a civil war anyway
but the question is over what?
as far as we know the Horde was the direct cause of every problem in a human kingdom after the beginning of the First War. I mean sure you could come up with something else, but you'd need it to both make sense and be able to tie in the Legion

>>46391411
I feel it requires a special perspective. The divide by realms is very norse mythology-esque, which is pretty cool.

However this is a new development that must sink in, first, as up to this point magic has been described much more alike to the Warhammer Winds of Magic, each of a shared origin and manifesting in different pieces of the spectrum.

We're so accostumed to viewing magic as basically one and the same that this new development grinds against our previous understanding.

Apart from that, there's still some disagreement over the placement, though somebody has already said it's more about who the magics oppose instead of with whom they're neighbours.

>>46391597
If I remember Day of the Dragon well, Lordaeron, Stromgarde and Gilneas were all angry at each other over who would take over Alterac's old land

So a territorial dispute is not out of the question

>>46391614
>it's more about who the magics oppose instead of with whom they're neighbours.
Doesn't it also have meaning that Fel and Arcane are positioned the way they are?

I imagine the top half - light, chaos, nature - is more dynamic and energetic, while lower half - void, order, death - is more static and cold. The top is more alive and free, the bottom is more controlled...

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>>46391614
That is fair enough. I never thought of it like that. Now that you brought up warhammer I wonder how they compare to each other. We all know most 40k species would annihilate most starcraft species but I am not so sure with warcraft vs warhammer. I feel that warcrafts higher technology plus easier access to magic gives them an advantage.

>>46391656
Alterac only lost its land because they sided with the Horde, however. Pernolde was an ambitious bastard, however, and would likely have been spinning intrigues even without the Horde present.

>>46391693
>>46391656
> tfw Alterac had a huge fleet in Warcraft 2
> now it's land-locked

>>46391702
Well, you CAN have a fleet even as landlocked country. You need dependable allies with a coastline though.

>>46391733
uh, you're right. Russia even plundged Syria over civil war over it

>>46391677
anything that can be killed or damaged enough to be combat-ineffective would lose to Warcraft. 25 adventurers + Khadgar and Thrall could take on any challenger as long as their ilevel was high enough

>>46391702
I always assumed that Southshore and eastern Hillsbrad was originally Alterac land, actually. Arathi was arguing that they should get "eastern Alterac" after all, so it makes sense that they'd share a border.

>>46391746
kek, I'm pretty sure it's more complex than that, but there you have it.

>>46391767
But the goddamn wall

Also you might be right, Durnholde could have been originally from Alterac considering how mean its owner was

>>46391786
The goddamn wall is on the Arathi-Hillsbrad border. It would still make sense as the old Arathi-Alterac border; more sense than as the old Arathi-Lordaeron border at any rate, given that Thoras and Terenas were supposed to have been bros.

>>46391676
Well yes, the Light-Shadow axis is basically the core of "Energy vs. Stability", with the other 'realms' respresenting various levels of how those aspects are manifested.

I put some thought into this and I feel like "Death" is the odd one out, especially since it leads into undeath.

>>46391677
If we disregard the player characters as a game mechanic and apply only lore, I would say the chances are actually pretty even, or only lightly favouring Warcraft due to your points. We should also not forget that the high level of technology is mainly due to a monopole of the Gnomes/Dwarves and Goblins, if we go by lore alone.

>>46391938
Dwarven propensity to blow themselves up has been quietly forgotten, but goblins still employ suicide bombers as demonstrated in Northrend. Is it ever explained how this is reconciled with their selfish, profiteering angle?

>>46392337
Last I heard it was that goblin sappers are less suicide bombers, and more that being a sapper is an extremely high risk position no matter your race and the unreliability and generally explosive nature of goblin technology only makes it riskier for them. Extreme risk, extreme reward, basically.

>>46391411
It's trying to bring all the forms of magic, weird dimensions, and otherworldly beings into one semi-coherent model of existence, but in doing so it homogenizes a lot of these concepts, makes them different flavors of the same thing instead of unique sources of power and strange schools of magic.

It also throws out years of very interesting lore as to the nature of these things, for the sake of an overly codified diagram.

>>46391312
Because the dork portal never opened ner'zul never becomes the LK. The CoD never forms. Adventurers never get strong batteling the LK and Deathwing destroys the planet in Cata

>>46392802
Without the various events during the wars and the events of WoW to further weaken the other dragonflights, I do believe that Deathwing would be overwhelmed by his fellow aspects when he returned.

>>46393069
Without Day of The Dragon breaking the Demon Soul Deathwing was stronger than all the other Dragon Aspects put together.

And Day of the Dragon only happened because Zulluhed and Nekros (Orcs) got their hands on the Demon Soul.

That said, I'm sure Sargeras would have come up with a backup plan at some point.

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>>46393138
You know, as bad as Knaak generally is, I kinda loved the part of DotD where the Demon Soul breaks and all the other aspects make Deathwing their bitch. I think it's the only time we've seen them truly in their prime.

Pic not related, or even canon, but I think it's neat anyway.

>>46393316
Day of the Dragon was genuinely decent pulp.

Interestingly enough it actually accidentally foreshadowed the idea that Shaman could impersonate the Earth Warder for the purpose of unlocking the Demon Soul's full power (Before it was sealed off from Deathwing at the end of the WotA) Since Zuluhed the dark shaman couldn't use the Soul after the WotA seal was put on it.

Also, that Ogre area to the north of Loch Modan (Just under where the Twilight Citadel goes up in Cata) has a lot of old Troll stuff, was that placeholder Ogre stuff that never got updated or should that area have been a Forest Troll enclave pre-second-war?

Off topic, buuut.

What the fuck happened to 4chan's UI?

>>46393541
April fools.

>>46393316
That Worgen with Warglaives is sort of the perfect summary of what I dislike about the current state of World of Warcraft.

A dude who's recently been infected with lycanthropy, lived completely isolated for the past 12 or so years behind a wall on a peninsula, is completely fine carrying on as if he had always been an anthropomorph wolf, joining up with dudes he's never even seen before and utilising weaponry he's probably never seen before and not even knows how to wield them properly. So much personal struggle is just resolved off-screen.

And he's just one of thousands.

I am perfectly aware that the setting is mostly a backdrop for player's to have "awesome" and "rad" adventures, but would it have hurt so much to first understand how actual human beings work and then build at least some sort of narrative on that very basic concept?

And then there's the rampant globalisation - Again, you don't want to block players in their journey to create the character they want. But the fact that every backwater village may have access to blackpowder weapons is just absurd when that technology should be reserved for Dwarves to hand out to important allies.

>>46393495
it was a troll ruin that got moved into by ogres because why let a good cave go to waste

>>46393583
Thank FUCKING god. I would abandon this site otherwise.

Still though, good April fools joke.

>>46393602
I'd be down for that. An unnamed extinct tribe do you think? Or the Witherbark from Arathi maybe?

Anyone read the warcraft legends comics? I know Tokyo pop is awful buy they seemed like decent enough reads

>>46393656
Almost all the stories in the Warcraft Legends anthologies are amazing.


Most of them get very dark however, the origin of the Headless Horseman for one.

>>46391514
>You see, I would have loved for the light to remain just that - A philosophy of the humans, capable of stimulating the arcane aether and thus allowing for channelling of spells.
Was the Light ever Arcane? In the ingame sources, it's still sort of referenced as a philosophy of Divine Humanism, where one's will is reflected upon and shapes the universe to some degree.

Personally, I prefer to play the Shadow Priest with the perspective that nothing is forbidden and that there are no dark secrets that man was never meant to know or make use of. Someone who feels a Shadow Priest's duty is to tread down the dark paths that others fear and keep open eyes and ears where most avert their gaze or cover their ears, but without being a reckless shortsighted powermongerer like a Warlock.

>>46393601
Yeah, the Worgen mostly turned out disappointing. The themes could have been handled better.

>>46393729
The only warcraft comic I have is the sun well triliogy. The writing and pacing was a little goofy (kind of like the legend of zelda manga adaptions)but still enjoyable

>>46393899
I found the side characters in the Sunwell trilogy more interesting than the main characters.

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>>46393601
>I am perfectly aware that the setting is mostly a backdrop for player's to have "awesome" and "rad" adventures, but would it have hurt so much to first understand how actual human beings work and then build at least some sort of narrative on that very basic concept?
Well considering the Blood elves joined the Horde after millenias of relative peace with humans ...

>>46393768
The Warcraft 2 manual describes Paladins as being "taught in magic" by Alonsus Faol. However back then there wasn't any distinction between Arcane, Fel or Holy, so there's no definite say in that matter.

It's just that I believe that the "magical" aspect of the Holy has to come from somewhere, even though I'm opposed to being from the realm of Light.

>>46393768
>yfw the headless horsemen becomes the 3rd Horseman

>>46393931
>tfw Whitemane will never arise your champion

>>46393601
>But the fact that every backwater village may have access to blackpowder weapons is just absurd when that technology should be reserved for Dwarves to hand out to important allies.
>Implying those guns don't come from the countless adventurers passing through with backpacks full of vendor trash to sell

>>46393941
>It's just that I believe that the "magical" aspect of the Holy has to come from somewhere, even though I'm opposed to being from the realm of Light.
I think divine magic has been treated differently from the arcane for quite some time, though I'm not sure how indepth it was.

Anyhow, the Light and Void are in everything, so you don't need to channel it from another realm. Like all true treasures, it was inside of you all along.

>>46393955
...I, that would actually be pretty amazing.

>>46391024
Sargeras being corrupted by Dreadlords (and Eredar) has been retconned a long ago. First they changed it into nonspecific "he spent so long fighting evil that he decided the universe must be fundementally flawed" (pretty much the same vackstory that he used to have, but Eredar and Dreadloards weren't directly mentiontion), and then they changed it to "he came to believe that the only way to stop the Void Lords from eventually destroying the universe...was to destroy the universe?".

>>46391312
In the Caverns of Time dark portal instance it was implied that if the portal was never opened and the Horde didn't invade, then Azeroth would get wrecked when the Burning Legion eventually showed up.

>>46394445
This all the bad shit that happens to Azeroth helps strengthen it's citizens through survival of the fittest. We have plenty of adventurers strong enough to fight against the legion.

>>46390438
Whitemane would fill the role of a holy undead figure like Zeliek- and the Silver Hand sure as shit wouldn't let the DKs raise Tirion.

Try again.

>>46394657
>the Silver Hand sure as shit wouldn't let the DKs raise Tirion
Allegedly, one of the DK quests in Legion involves raiding the Paladin class hall to steal Tirion's corpse. If that is true, then it's really not a matter of whether the Silver Hand consents so much as whether they can fight off the Ebon Blade.

>>46394708
You know, the more I hear about the Ebon Blade and the Scourge's new role in Legion, the more I both hate and love it. It's so stupid, but hilarious at the same time.

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>>46394730
As a Death Knight player I've been waiting for this since litterally Cataclysm

>>46394392
His idea is still similar in that the universe is irreversibly corrupt and must be PURGED. He figured life would eventually happen again even if it took billions of years, and that that's still better than trying to de-oldgodify the universe to avoid the permanent void destruction.

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>>46394730
I get where they're coming from and that it fits the Death Knight theme but you'd think they would wait until the apocalypse has been cancelled to be teamkilling fucktards.

>>46394354
http://legion.wowhead.com/quest=42818/the-scarlet-assault

It's Whitemane.

>Sally Whitemane was a priest whose personal tragedy forged an intense connection with the Light. According to the Grimoire of Damnation, a zealot is needed to strengthen the bond between the other souls.

>Go to the Scarlet Monestary and raise High Inquisitor Whitemane from her tomb in the Scarlet Cathedral. Death has quelled her madness, but the strength of her spirit remains intact.

>We will offer her the opportunity to atone for her sins. Speak with Thassarian when you arrive at the monestary.

>>46394746
Death Knights in a nutshell
>CALL THE PALADINS, I DON'T GIVE A FUCK

>>46394780
Honestly I kind of get the feeling that they're planning on cancelling the apocalypse themselves and just don't give a fuck whose toes they have to step on and whose bodies they have to steal to do it.

>>46394787
The question is will she be the Zieliek as well as the Lady B, or will Tirion be the Zielek?

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>>46394657
>Silver Hand sure as shit wouldn't let the DKs raise Tirion
We raided undercity and rescued our guy Koltiras from the paws of shitvanas.
What makes you think we won't take him too?

Whitemane is our widow faerlina.

>>46391528
>tfw when Mimic vanished from the face of the earth
Gawd, some of the best WoW rape pics you ever did see.

>>46394806
Still, you'd think that they'd run the math and figure that the people they'd lose/kill during the corpse heist would be better spent punching demons. Really, why waste goodwill, allies, and your own people on raising a single old man who has more than earned his rest? It's not like Tirion would actually do anything. Everyone knows that the actual heavy lifting will be done by the adventurers.

>>46394854
She's obviously going to fill the pink ranger role like Lady B.

>>46391411
it's like trying to draw a picture of the four fundamental forces of physics and saying that Gravity is now the opposite force of Electromagneticism. Not because it makes any fucking sense but because it makes your picture look pretty.

>>46394959
So you are saying that light shouldn't be the opposite of shadow and life shouldn't be the opposite of death? If so you are autistic.

>>46394938
>Raid nearest graveyard
>Full of zombies again
>Legion attacks and btfos village
>Full of DKs again

See where I'm getting? Scourge is about one of the only forces in azeroth that can push the legion back in sheer-number stomping power. Just send paladins inside the notwarp to actually kill them.


Also they probably do give you the corpse willingly and you're just doing diplomacy.

>>46395000
>Just throw more zombies at the problem
They tried that at Light's Hope Chapel and the situation still required Death Knights and other sophisticated undead constructs to join the fight. A base full of paladins is going to be a tougher nut to crack than that.

Also, doesn't raising Death Knights require significantly more investment than "Find a corpse, slap some armor on it, and call it a day?"

>Paladins
>Willingly forking over the corpse of an iconic, beloved leader
It'll take a hell of a sales pitch.

>>46395097
Whitemane is gonna put the pallies to sleep like she did in her fight

>>46395097
>Not forking it over to Bolvar
>Who is also an iconic paladin and martyr
>Who is willingly asking them first before Knighthood and probably will let them die if they want
>Tirion
>Not saying "Aight senpai say no mo. Do I get to bring my own horse?"

>>46393601
I thought the nelves were the first to summon the worgen.

>>46395156
I hope they update undead horse models

>>46394995
Have you ever considered the doctor wasn't trying to make a point when he told your mother your diagnosis? He was just doing his job.

>>46391297
So from some odd memory I thought the human way of doing it was that you needed, respect, tenacity and compassion to channel the light as well as being in the belief that you are doing good to use it, would blood elf thought be more along the lines of aggressive use of the light, so maybe something like tenacity, respect and Dicipline to charge down the scourge

>>46395584
Isn't the Bloodelf Light the same as "human" Light again? I mean, High Elves generally worshipped the Light as far as I remember, and the whole HURR DURR NAARU BATTERY episode is over too, so they are probably back to just plain old Light Philosophy.

>>46390701
The main conceit of the Caverns of Time instances is unique enough to justify jumping through time like the players are: the PCs are recruited as impromptu time police and must make sure events go off exactly as they did in history. This probably explains why the majority of the CoT instances are escort missions.
>Protect Medivh as he opens the Dark Portal
>Protect Thrall as he makes his escape from Hillsbrad
>Protect Arthas and make sure he survives Stratholme
The only instance that wasn't an escort quest was the Battle of Mt. Hyjal, and that was just running between chokepoints and dealing with waves of demons.

I know this was asked previously, but what moments would you most like to see revisited in the Caverns of Time. The Infinite Dragonflight or some extra-temporal force is out to fuck some crucial moment of Warcraft history, and you've been enlisted by the Bronze Flight to make sure history follows its original course. Maybe they'd kick you to the finale of Warcraft 1 and the battle at the foot of Blackrock Mountain. What exact moments would you attempt to preserve? Where would you go?

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>>46393984

She's the forth and final person to be brought back as one of the 4 Horsemen.

http://legion.wowhead.com/quest=42818/the-scarlet-assault

>>46395156
I was under the impression that only the PCs (as it were, the heroes) and Tirion knew Bolvar was the Lich King?

>>46396276
Infinite flight tries to give Lei Shin the victory he was aiming for in Uldum. You're tasked with breaking through the lines of trolls and mogu to save the Tol'vir from infinite interference so they can originate and shit. Would be a good way to show off the new lore while giving us a chance to see pre-desert Uldum and the trolls at their height of glory.

>>46396276
It might be amusing to have a CoT instance where you're actually fighting during some Vanilla act. The raid on Blackwing Lair, perhaps, where the Original Raid's leader was actually an Infinite agent and managed to convince his raid to get free loot from Nefarian in exchange for helping against you and the Bronze Dragonflight.

>>46396371

Nah, everyone in Dalaran knows now.

>>46396542
Now that'd be baller

>>46396690
nice try mcfly

>>46391359
>Maybe [gnome priests] only see the technical aspect of it
I thought they took a shot at the priesthood for the same reason they do everything else: curiosity and just trying it out.

>>46396690
>Marty McFly giving inspiration for a CoT raid
Well, this has pretty much got to happen now, doesn't it?

Does sound like a fun idea. Getting to look at Vanilla-era raiders in the gear that looks downright domestic compared to the gaudy bullshit of modern WoW.

>>46396785
>Does sound like a fun idea. Getting to look at Vanilla-era raiders in the gear that looks downright domestic compared to the gaudy bullshit of modern WoW.
doing a Leeroy run in modern UBRS is funny when you look at him compared to the rest of the group, especially when he gets his shoulders

>>46391525
According to the Bronze Dragonflight, that's exactly what happens. Since the Horde never arrives, the squabbling human nations never settle and combine their forces, meaning there's no Alliance. That means when the Burning Legion arrives - and they WILL arrive - Azeroth will have no solidified resistance and will fall to the demons. That's why the Dark Portal instance in the Caverns of Time is a thing: for the sake of the world, the Horde must arrive in Azeroth, which means Medivh must open the Dark Portal.

>>46396542
How about we side with the Infinites and let the Trolls win? We can come back to the future where they've acquired the technology of Uldum, and the singular continent of Kalimdor is ruled by the immortal God Emperors Lei Shen and Zulathra while the Night Elves and lesser races are rightfully subjugated.

>>46393768
>Personally, I prefer to play the Shadow Priest with the perspective that nothing is forbidden and that there are no dark secrets that man was never meant to know or make use of. Someone who feels a Shadow Priest's duty is to tread down the dark paths that others fear and keep open eyes and ears where most avert their gaze or cover their ears, but without being a reckless shortsighted powermongerer like a Warlock.
Shadow priests are psionics. They have lots of mind powers and shit.

>>46390911
>>46390878
>>46390784

Can we all just agree that time travel and AU are the single dumbest things in fiction?

>>46396853
>they will arrive
There was no guarantee that they would. This is always the shitty excuse the horde makes when they get caught chimping out
>B-but you need us for fighting against the BL
The only reason azeroth needs them is because the horde kills the people who would otherwise fight the legion.

>>46396990
the AU itself isn't inherently bad. Afrasiabi going full retard trying to explain the way demons work across universes is bad

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>>46396990
>implying time travel isn't most excellent when it's handled well

>>46397061
That movie was all ABOUT time travel.

I appreciate CoT instances form a "Fun" perspective, but going all out was dumb.


>>46397036
yeeeeeeeeeeeeeep

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>>46396982
That's certainly part of it. You could say the Old Gods and their servants are psionics too.

The point here is that the lore behind them is that they study what Light worshipers consider to be heretical and blasphemous, believing the dark powers are just as powerful and important as the Light.

That's how I like to Shadow Priest. A psychic seeker of dark and forbidden lore and divinity.

>>46394787
>Sally Whitemane was a priest whose personal tragedy forged an intense connection with the Light.
Wait, what tragedy?

>>46397105
If anything, they didn't go far enough with Caverns of Time. As is, the Caverns are wasted potential.

Let players relive all the old strategy games' campaigns from the front lines. Hell, Blizzard doesn't even need to explain it with Infinite shenanigans. Just handwave some of that shit as a Bronze Dragonflight holodeck or something.

>>46397061
Okay I'll make a better distinction.

Can we all agree that time travel (outside of comedy) is the stupidest thing in fiction?

>>46397256
>pvp caverns of time shenanigans
You know what? I can live with this.

>>46397256
Then why not run a Timewalker campaign? Travel the timelines while stopping meddlers and Infinites, and cockblock Medivh while you're at it!

>>46397309
That depends on the handling.

>>46397246
Her father's death to the scourge or forsaken, further detailed in the Ashbringer comic.

>>46397175
I RP'd a Forsaken shadow priest who was nihilistic as fuck.

Called other priests and pallys candles and would get them frustrated as hell when saying that light is a temporary state and all came from and eventually returns to darkness.

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>>46390493
You're right, Anon.

>>46397349
I have yet to see it be done well... ever.

Writers impose their own ideas and rules and inevitably ignore or forget them making the setting a clusterfuck.

>>46397246

>At a young age, Sally Whitemane witnessed her family succumb to the horrific plague of undeath as they were traveling through northern Lordaeron. She was then forced to destroy her parents and siblings when they rose as mindless Scourge minions, leaving her racked by guilt and rage. Ever since that day, the fearsome priestess has found fulfillment and pleasure in only one thing: the destruction of undead.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/zone/scarlet-monastery/high-inquisitor-whitemane

Also, in regards to the fourth and final horsemen, everything I've seen so far is speculation and people claiming they know without offering any proof. Maybe I'm just in denial over them going :"newest ashbringer is now a DK bro", but I'm really hoping it's somebody else. Maybe they raise Alexandros again- or Darion has his brother Renault join him in undeath.

Hm.

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smite the booty

>>46391024
>Old gods are (relative to the titan scale anyway) weak beings that can't really do shit apart from controlling minds and creating illusions
>They lack muscle
>control sargeras by exposing him to demons
>???
>profit

Old gods are the root of all problems, but they're less directly powerful on their own than sargeras.

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>>46391312
>the dank portal

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Wanna hear a warcraft joke? Night Elfs.

>hellknowshowmany years to evolve
>didn't

>>46397561

Here's another.

>"De Amani neva gonna die!"

Once the lich king kill all planet and them the demons, them what?
What will he do after he beat the BBEG?

>>46397622
WE GOTTA SURPRISE FOR YA NOW
SO COME ON IN
DA AMANI NEVER FORGET
WE NEVER GIVE UP
WE NEVER DIE
SO IF YOU WANNA STAY
YOU STAY HERE FOREVER
WE GONNA BURY YOU HERE

>>46397457
EVERY ASHBRINGER HOLDER IS PROPERTY OF THE EBON HOLD.

THE SWORD DOES NOT COME WITH NO CONSEQUENCES.

>>46397628
This is bolvar's master plan
>Kick the legion out
>Kick the old gods out
>Get himself into his flying necropolis-space ship
>Go into the twisting nether
>Go into SC2

>>46397541
Making mind control their main thing was kind of lame. It would make more sense if that's just what they did because their imprisonment kept them from being more direct.

I guess being Voidy terraforming agents isn't too bad.

>>46397724
>the scourge are going to get inspiration after seeing the legions spaceships
OH NO

>>46397561

WE WUZ HIGHBORNE N SHIT

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>>46397312
It sure as fuck would make more sense than shoehorning PvP scenarios into the main timeline. Let the adventurers sate their bloodlust and nationalism in old battlefields instead of fucking up international relations in real time. It even provides a reasonable in-universe explanation for why people are still fighting over Alterac Valley, Arathi Basin, Warsong Gulch, etc.

>>46397781
Honestly? It could work for multi-faction RP. Make one faction for the bronze dragonflight, and one for the infinite dragonflight. One are trying to fuck up the timeline, the other are trying to fix it.

>>46397781
Or stop making the game about two factions who don't like each other putting aside their differences and fighting a common enemy.
Just have an expansion of nothing but Horde and Alliance.

>>46397850
>an expansion of nothing but Horde and Alliance
We already had two entire games dedicated to that, plus the early Vanilla days when the most dangerous things in the world were Ragnaros and Kazzak.

>>46397753
>KT: "Sir. I have an idea."
>Mograine: "not this again!"
>Anub'arak: "...."
>KT: "Put nether-propulsors on the fucking naxx'ramas and fly around the nether fighting"
>Bolvar: "FUCKING GENIUS"

>>46397850
No, fuck that. I'd sooner see them get rid of the factions entirely.

>>46397850
Jaina should just get her way. Break the Horde apart and the Alliance has no reason to further exist. No factions, only races. Bring back Languages and let people adventure with whomever they want. Let the Tauren Druid go with the Nightelves, let the Blood Elf go with Humans, let the Pandaren speak with the fucking Pandaren, for fuck's sake the factions make no fucking sense anyway in WoW.

Since they opened the UA hellbox:
Go balls deep.
Normal (PVE) servers is the canon history.
Minigaming (PVP) servers are the non-canon perma infighting.

>>46395211
Yeah, the Worgen curse is the result of an ancient elven ritual iirc

>>46390551
WC2, all those boats require oil to build. In Mists, controlling the oil drills in Krasarang is a pretty big deal. Though I'm not sure if they're using oil as fuel or if they just convert it into lubricants and such. Since I think one sailboat requires oil.

>>46398529
It's possibly also needed for lubricants and tars.

I realized last night that despite taming trolls and having Dinomancers and shit, there don't seem to actually be any Dinosaur LOA for the trolls.

>>46399234
I'm pretty sure the loa which taught darkspear trolls druidism was a raptor

>>46399234
Oh wait, Gonk the Raptor-Loa that helps found the troll druids.

>>46399257
Yeah I forgot him since ironically enough you can't interact with him after Cata officially started.

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>>46399257
I believe it was a cunning raptor, yes.
>Hey, Darkspears? Wanna know a cool trick?
>What's dat, mon?
>I can show you a way to talk to ALL the loa at the same time. That way, you don't have to devote yourself to one or another.
>What the FUCK are you doing, Raptor? How are we going to get our devoted worship?
>Because the Darkspears deserve better than that, you petty bitches.
And that's how the Darkspears were introduced to the Emerald Dream. The Cenarion Circle and Moonglade were never the same again.

>>46399344
>trolls never got raptor forms instead of cat forms
>never got something like the direhorns for bear form
WHAT IS THE POINT

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>>46399344
But not all Loa have the same ties to the Dream as the Ancients breed of Wild God.

>>46399344
Ugh, that moonkin.

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>>46399385
>You will never be an original tree form druid
>You will never do the Twist during a raid

>>46398136
>All clases share a language
>All races share a language
>All players speak global-speak
>You can learn other race's languages with a lengthy quest (muh fluff for rptards)
>Instead of factions you can have guild wars
>All DKs are scourge aligned
>All Demon huntards are Illidari
Yes!

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>>46397561
But Anon, when you're already perfect, there's nothing left to evolve.

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is there someone here owning an account on the wowpedia? There's something interesting that could be added but I'm too lazy to create an account

>>46398136
>>46399547
It'd never happen, but if it did, that would be a series of changes that would actually make me interested in WoW again.

Female Night Elf Demon Hunter or Female Blood Elf Demon Hunter, /tg/?

>>46399677
Always Nelf Females.
Always Belf Males.

>>46397893
>All those DKs shouting "Fly me closer, I want to them with my sword!"
Also, isn't Tempest Keep still around? I'm surprised no one has done anything with it.
I've been tempted to end my TBC campaign with the party fixing up Oshu'gun and flying off on adventure. Though I doubt I'll go through with it. The party would crash land on top of Icecrown.

>>46399677
BOTH.

A real man always takes the third option.

>>46399751
>all those DKs Deathgrip the legion ships close to their own.
>they board and start singing
Almighty master of the scourge, hear this war's tumultuous roar

>>46391512
>tormwind nearly fell to gnoll raiders merely a century before the dark portal

that said, how the fuck humans survived the orcs and demons?
how the absolute fuck orcs and demons survided gnolls!?

>>46391512
>>46399811
It was literally every Gnoll from redridge and Elwynn and possibly the rest of the area unified in a manner much like the Horde.

And the Gnolls didn't seem to directly have a chance to overrun SW itself, but they could keep most of their armies tied up on the walls as they pillaged the countryside.

>>46399811
>Underestimating gnolls
Those motherfuckers are crazy, man. Hogger alone is capable of wiping Cataclysm-tier adventurer parties. I'm not actually joking here. It happened during BlizzCon 2009.

>>46399811
Then the gnolls bully the kobolds and murlocs to work for them.

>>46397893
The adventures of the I.C.S Naxxramas?

Bolvar is Kirk, KT is Bones, Mograne Spock?

>>46399984
>Waves of murlocs crashing against the gates.
>Kobolds undermining the wall.
>Gnolls that are actually smart enough to pick up the weapons of fallen soldiers.
Genuinely horrified.

>>46399751
>>46399778
>Be dreadlord
>Illidary blow up my planet
>Defeat the heroes of Azeroth, after many lost ships retreat into the nether again
>Portal is busted open and a chilling cold spreads with the rancid aroma of corpses
>Suddenly hear "GET ME CLOSER! I MUST HIT HIM WITH MY SWORD"
>Otherwordly force grabs my throat and starts to strangle me
>I see my friends get pulled away by dark tendrils towards flying metal boxes dripping green slime
>Warcraft 4: Scourge vs Burning Legion
That'd be pretty fucking old warcraft style metal desu.

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>>46400093
>KT constantly insisting that Bolvar call him numba one
>wacky Four Horsemen hijinks
>Anub'arak constantly acting out of human social norms

>a Naaru takes a weird obsession with Bolvar and keeps showing up to harass him

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>>46399677

NE are the OG DHs, but male night elves look dumb as hell.
So my answer is the one on the right.

>>46400261
>>46400261
>These are the voyages of the Nethership Naxxramas
>Its continuing mission, to explore strange new worlds
>To seek out plaguable life and new Legion Strongholds
>To boldly war where no one has warred before

>>46390674
SCARLET MARCH MY BOOOOOOOY

jesus, the comics are so fucking bad

>>46400723
Which comics?

Some are great, others are shit.

>>46400765
I was reading the entire varian arc.

>>46400805
The Varian arc has some stilted old-school dialogue (The author is actually oan old-school writer for Thor!) and plays up the Mana Crack angle of bloodelves too much but is fairly okay.

The second arc is really only good to watch Cho'Gal mutate.

>>46400723
I like the Assbringer comic

I can't wait for the new influx of Whitemane fanart. She always got the best porn.

>>46400931
yes. only good thing

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>>46400955
Yes.

Already enjoying the influx of Demon hunter art, hopefully there's a boost in Maiev and other Nelves.

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>male night elves

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God that's horrifying.

>>46402270
The spent lots of time working on female nelves, even their teeth, just to make fans happy. You would think they'd go the extra mile to make nelf male chests at least as hunky as male human chests.

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It's funny how much better the shade of Xavius looks than the full sized "Cotton Hill" Xavius.

>>46389861
>Stop it, Darryn

WHEN DO WE GET TO BREAK KIL'JAEDEN's LEGS

>>46406769
Whenever the lazy ASSHOLE pulls them through the goddamn Felfucking portal!

>>46404386
That's because the full sized one is -supposed- to look like a disgusting bloated piece of shit rather than something sleek or cool. He's supposed to be vile rather than admirable.

>>46406969
Yes, but he looks like fucking Cotton Hill.

Satyr were never really known for having tiny baby legs.

So clearly Malfurion is a DIRTY GOT-DAMN TOJO WHO BLEW XAV'S SHINS OFF.

Kek, the wow forums
>guys garithos might not be incompetent
>HE WAS RAYCISS AGAINST MUH PRETTY ELFS
>HE MUST SUCK

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>>46407562
>tfw Garithos' stats and abilities in WC3 allow him to easily solo Varimathras and Sylvanas at the same time
Why doesn't the Ebon Blade bring this glorious motherfucker back?

>>46389861
>Warcraft
> lore

>>46407775
Because he was bad and incompetent. Fuck everything he did, he was rayciss to muh waifoo and husbando. He must be bad.

>>46407783
>Warhammer Fantasy battles
>lore

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>>46407562
>>46407775
>>46407791

>>46407791
>Varimathras
>Husbando material
He was nowhere near as sexy as Tichondrius or Mal'ganis.

>>46407842
nah, its all the kaelfag

>>46407791

He WAS bad and incompetent. His racism was simply the cherry on top.

>>46407854
oh come the fuck on. Where was he incompetent in TFT
>inb4 later retcons

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>>46407562
He had no reason to suspect the Naga of anything and turned half his army against a quarter of it when they all should have been fighting scourge.

They guy let a personal grudge ruin a good chance to gain more ground, then got mind controlled by dreadlords.

>>46407866
Didn't he steal most of Keal'thas' forces and left him to assault the undead with harsh words?

>>46407873
same naga that kept alliance prisoners?
that were doing dark sorcery in dalaran?

>>46407890
When?

I don't recall the Naga doing anything to actively harm the Alliance till after Garithos ordered his elfstermination.

>>46407873
>got mind controlled by dreadlords.
>Has Avatar in his spell list
>Avatar renders the caster immune to magic while it's active
Bra-fucking-vo, Blizzard. If he hadn't gone full retard due to cutscenes, he could have easily saved Lordaeron.

>>46407916
they literally kept a paladin imprisoned in dalaran. Remember, the undead were not at dalaran then. Gary did manage to save it.

>>46407866

He throws away a large portion of his forces because of personal issues, gets upset and wastes more forces trying to kill them when they just don't keel over and die like he wanted, and he trusted the undead to uphold their side of the bargain when they have no reason to.

If you don't call that incompetent, than what do you?

>>46407949
Ah, you are right they did imprison that one human. However Kael ratting out Maiev got pretty much everyone on the same team when they realized what was going on.


Wait was the Paladin imprisoned by the Naga I seem to remember... Kobolds of all things around his cell. I may be totally crazy though.

>>46407997
Yeah I jsut checked, definitely Naga. Though that could have been a "Misunderstanding" since Illidan's general reaction to being told "Hey wait" tends to be "Lock them up or kill them:"

>>46407965
and on the other hand, he kept the alliance trucking when everyone left.
>inb4 it was not him

No, if the guy is not in the game, he is not present.

>>46408053
No he didn't

I mean, if someone else who came before him had lost the High elves allegiance and the forces he sent after them, then yeah, you could say that, but since he was responsible for that, which was a splintering of the Alliance, you can't really say "He kept the alliance trucking". He's the one who broke it apart

>>46408736
The high elves were not part of the alliance. KT and his blood elves were.

>>46408803
I thought they didn't start calling themsleves blood elves until after Garithos had declared them traitors?

>>46408909
they called themselves blood elves because they were faggots who hid in their forest until arthas came for them. Then they died. The bro tier high elves left with jaina or were below the thandol span or in those ranger huts.

>>46407562
Garithos might have been under mindcontrol/influence by Balnazzar, preying on his prejudices to break up the alliance forces in Lordaeron. The blood elves were the magic experts after all, and once they're gone Garithos and his entire army get mindcontrolled.

>>46409055
I don't think he was mind controlled till after that happened.

But I could see more subtle influence used to get eh Bloodelves away so he could start with more active mind control without suspicion


But Garithos was also a dick to the dwarves even after getting free.

He jsut really hated the elves because he was fighting in Quel'thalas and when the orcs pulled back to go to Capital City they ran roughshod over his hometown.

So as somebody who stopped following the Lore after the end of WotLK what are the major things I missed?

>>46409327
Nothing except Green Jesus, Brown Hitler and time travel.

>>46409267
>Crying about his hometown and blaming the elves despite seeing a good chunk of Quel'thalas get burnt to the ground
What a dick

>>46409343
Those were all already there.

>>46409376
Garithos is like the entire reason the Blood Elves went Horde over Alliance. Killing him was one of the best missions in Frozen Throne.

>>46409327
Deathwing came back and fucked everything up.
Thrall retired as Warchief and is now the World Shaman.
Garrosh Hellscream became Warchief and proceeded to ruin everything.
Pandaria was rediscovered.
Garrosh was arrested, escaped, and went back in time to an alternate Draenor to recruit old orc legends into a new Horde. That failed, and Thrall killed Garrosh.
Now the Burning Legion is invading Azeroth in force.

>>46409392
So they went over to the faction that had tried to genocide them in the past and the undead that had genocided them.

>>46409392
What actually happened to Garithos' men after he was killed? Were they all slaughtered on the spot by the Forsaken for the crime of having served under a racist?

>>46409487
I'd imnagine plenty managed to flee. Probably a lot joined the future scarlet crusade, and the ones loyal to Garithos managed to help convince them that the Forsaken were bad news.

>>46409449
The faction that tried to genocide them in the past is not part of the Horde anymore (aside from a tiny village), and the forsaken are not the same as the scourge (prior to Cataclysm at least)

>>46409327
Everything you like?

Gone

Everything you hate?

Front and center to prevent you from being able to ignore it

Also, character assassination is now the norm, instead of something that happens once per expansion at most

>>46409604
yes, and the nuHorde cockrides the orcs who burned down parts of their forests and tried to kill them all.

>>46409649
Yeah

Really drives home how desperate the blood elves were doesn't it?

>>46409649

WoW is retarded with the whole faction anyway.

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>DK main
>mfw reading everything that DK's get to do in Legion

It's everything I wanted as a DK for years. YEARS FUCKING YEARS SINCE CATA. I haven't played WoW in over 14 months, but hearing about the DK's just stomping shit and getting ready to lead the scourge against the legion is ace

>>46409449
Kael'thas initially did what was necessary to preserve his nation, his people. Garithos was the traitor. Not even caring about racism at all, nobody need to care how he felt about nonhumans, he was an Alliance officer and beholden to the Alliance interest, which he put below his personal grudge.

That's not to say Kael'thas did not only go downhill from there, allying first with Illidan and then with the Legion.
Only good thing to have come out of this mess was the Scryers.

>>46409625
Who all died? I know Cairne was killed by Garrosh but who else?

>>46409711
We got Blood Knights too, who are kinda cool.

>>46409711
The Scryers were originally part of Kael'thas's entourage but then went independent after meeting the Naaru in Shattrath, correct?

>>46409649
By your logic entire Europe should look like balkans during the yugo wars.

>>46409711
aside from the fact that elves ditched the alliance and there's very good reason to hate them after the 2nd war.

"Your sacrifices means nothing! you ruined our forest you idiots!" Is literally what the elves were saying when they leave.
No one sane is going to like them.

>>46409712
Magni Bronzebeard gets turned into diamond, but that isn't what I mean by character assassination

I don't know why people are upset about Blood Elves being in the Horde. The differing cultures forced under the same banner for defense against outside threats is very interesting, I just wish we got to see more of the culture clash within the Horde

The real reason Blood elves is in Horde is because BZ want to balance the player number between faction, so they give Horde a good looking race, and it worked.

That's the only reason behind it and trying to justify it in lore is retarded.

>>46409712
Theramore got nuked, Rhonin died and Jaina got much less nice.
Southshore is destroyed by the forsaken
Gilneas is destroyed
Stromgarde is gonna be gone as well in new exp, also to the forsaken
Archbishop Benedictus was evil all along

>>46409733
I don't care about the yugo wars.

They aren't normal everyday people. They are mystical magical elves that live for thousands of years and the first thing they do is join the faction that tried killing them less than a decade before the latter. Even though theramore was a sanctuary for them. Or contacting the dwarves directly.

Non of that. They ran straight to the horde because blizzard needed a pretty race to balance the factions.

>>46409765
They did try to join the Alliance first

The Alliance told them to fuck off, they had space goats who were brilliant at everything and lived longer and were wiser and had better morality than any other race, why do they need elves?

>>46409774
Lore-wise draenei joining the Alliance will be way latter than bloodelves can send emissary to the alliance
Draenei only landed in TBC, which is like what? 5 years after TFT?

In fact there's no official explanation for why they didn't sign up to alliance anymore these days.
Even BZ gave up trying to justify it.

>>46409774
no, there is no mention of blood elves in vanilla at all. Everyone thought that Kael had escaped with his people to outland.

Then TBC happened and the lore went to shit.

>>46409791
The Alliance did rebuke the blood elves request to join them for safety though.

They had to, because if they didn't the entire story behind the blood elves of Silvermoon makes no sense at all

>>46409805
and why the fuck would the alliance even do that?

>>46409799
Actually back then BZ did mention the north east path in EPL was leading the Quel'thalas and put a lodge of elves close to it just so you would notice.

The BE joining Horde is of course pure bullshit lore-wise.

>>46409805
So you are saying they rejected because BZ had to give blood elves to the Horde.
Think for a minute on how ridiculous that sounds.

>>46409765
It's justified by blizzard that they went for the horde out of sense of loyalty they had for Sylvanas.

It's rather weak. Even so, you're still being retarded if you say that it's somehow implausible or even wrong for a faction to ally itself with another just because there are war crimes between them. Elves had no quarrel with the forsaken and shared enemy with them. Rest of Alliance was too far away from them, closest ones being the Wildhammer dwarves who were at that point sort of neutral anyway.

>>46409820
high elves. yes. And you enchanted thorium there for a pretty comfy questline.

Fuck, now I feel terrible.

>>46409832
Between two factions that had attacked them, the Blood elves went with the one that had attacked them with all it's might before. If they were being pragmatic they would have allied with the Kirin Tor and then with Ironforge.

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>mfw I find out who the fourth and final Horseman of Acherus is going to be

This is dumb as hell and completely invalidates that character's death.
The other three? Cool, they get a chance to right past wrongs and help save the world.
The fourth? Nah, man. Nah.

>>46409729
More like they saw how much of a raving lunatic Kael was turning into and hauled ass to Shattrath to defect.

>>46409832
Except Sylvanas was just a general, not royalty.
that reason didn't make any sense and even BZ wasn't dumb enough to use it, ever.

Chance are most of them fought the horde during the 2nd war, got the idea yet?

Wildhammer never left the alliance, and they should be the first one the elves contact since they are the oldest friend elves have.

>>46409858
what's wrong with Sally?

>>46409805
There are some individual high elves still with the alliance though. Some rangers in Loch Modan, a mage instructor in wizard tower... guess they were not that afflicted with the sunwell addiction or what. Same with some NPCs in Outland.
Which makes it even more fucked up that they made these guys >>46409844 into junkie elves after all that time. If they wanted them gone, they should have just had them succumb to the undead rather than take away remains of their dignity.

>>46409855
>Ally with the Kirin Tor.
You mean the guys who said 'fuck all of you' and hid behind a magic barrier for years, with basically zero fucking contact with ANYONE until Wrath?

>>46409869
Sally is #3, which I'm all for. I actually speculated she might fill the Zeliek role before it was revealed.

#4 is Tirion Fordring.

>>46409891
and the guys who had multiple villages in silverpine?
Also the high elves were allied to the alliance just fine.
>>46409875
blizzard just went on a horde power trip so hard.

Why couldn't they keep old azeroth as a phased zone.

>>46409855

Kirin Tor was fucked up even more than the elves at that time though. And Ironforge was on the other side of the world. Wildhammer dwarves would make sense, as >>46409868 says.

I think we can agree that main reason to pull this move was meta one, because Alliance already got the spacegoats.
Nonetheless I maintain that the alliance of convenience with the horde is not that far fetched, considering that part of continent Silvermoon is on is split between the undead scourge and the Forsaken.

Now, another question is, aside from giving players choice of races, why shouldn't both Forsaken and the Elves be admitted into the Alliance? I mean prior to Forsaken picking up their plague antics anyway.

>>46409915
Nah nothing to do with space goats.
Alliance was FAR FAR more popular than Horde back then since they got all the pretty races.
So bz put blood elves into Horde to balance the faction number, that's all there is to it.
I doubt BZ knew Draenei's female would be so popular.

Well no one trusted forsaken (which is correct), only hammul runetotem (who is a dumbass) agreed to help them join Horde.

High elves still in alliance, BE is not because meta reason.

>>46399547

You could take the EvE online approach to it. Can you imagine the drama in WoW if it had EvE like faction system?

its finally ogre

>>46409915
High Elves are admitted into the Alliance, there's just not enough of them to fill a playable race. Forsaken weren't due to racism on both sides. I mean their entire interaction with the Alliance prior to WoW was dealing with guys like the Scarlet Crusade and on the Alliance side they couldn't tell the difference between Scourge and Forsaken until it was too late.

Also Sylvanas hates the Alliance.

>>46409952
A betrayal quest ala EQII would be nice. Though it'd make the lack of cross faction communication even more of a handwave.

>>46409891
There were dalaran mages all over the site picking up stuff and rebuilding, and yes that named NPC who looked like a nobody was the part of council of six.

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>>46409953

>>46409966
>not trusting the forsaken after they straight up betrayed and murdered the alliance forces of lordaeron is raaacisssm

>>46410017
Well to be fair the Alliance kind of deserved it. There were no good people in that fight.

>>46410051
The rank and file soldiers were probably decent enough. Nobody cares about those ever though.

>>46410017
>muh garithos, muh purity
I'd like to believe that people praising gaythos are merely trolling or shitposting ironically, but I realize that reality is not that kind.
Apparently it's alright to be a corrupt, petty traitor if it's to "put the inhuman freaks in their place"

>>46410083
so now Garithos is suddenly a traitor despite having nothing to betray at his rank.

I mean seriously what?

>>46409979
What is the betrayal quest?

>>46410129
If leaving part of your forces to die, deliberately and due to personal grudge, is not treason then I don't know what is.

>lol they were just niggers, fuck them lmao

>>46410160
When did he "leave them to die"?
Even Kael didn't expect a force that size let alone Garithos who wasn't even there.

also betray involving 2 people trusting each other, which was never the case here.

>>46410178

He send Kael'thas to carry out a mission without adequate resources. Even if you would attribute that to bad intelligence, which is clearly not the case from tone of conversation, he had still no business of imprisoning entire elven forces when they managed to pull through due to Naga assistance.

And Alliance command entrusted Garithos with his position. He betrayed this trust, I repeat, over personal issues, at expense of both military strength of the Alliance and political consequences this shit would carry should the matter ever got in front of authorities.

>>46410219
So he basically pulled away the non-elven force. its still do able as Kael himself stated. (hell you can do it in game if you know what you are doing)
Garithos wasn't sitting at home doing nothing either, he was facing the main undead force and actually needed those extra man.
You mean aside from working with guys who they fought twice earlier?

No Garithos was the leader of the alliance force in Lordaeron by then, he had no boss.

>Grand Marshal Garithos: Now, the undead have begun a new offensive to retake Dalaran. Their primary strike force marches south through Silverpine, but we managed to halt its advance at the base of the mountains.
>Prince Kael'thas: My men are ready to fight, milord! When shall we leave for the front?
>Grand Marshal Garithos: We will be leaving immediately. But, your people will be staying here. Our scouts report that a second strike force may be heading this way from the east. I need you to repair the outlying observatories so that we can monitor that region.
>Prince Kael'thas: But, milord, we are warriors, not--
>Grand Marshal Garithos: You have your orders, Prince Kael'thas. I trust your elven ears heard them clearly enough. Move out!

Kael'thas first complains that his people are warriors and should be allowed to fight on the front lines. When Garithos later entrusts him with taking care of the second undead army he then throws a fit over not having human meatshields to die for him.

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>>46409699
this, so much this

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>>46410264
Even in real-life, if you send motivated and voluntary soldiers to a battlefield without proper weapons they'll soon be motivated no more

>>46410246
Are you actually convinced that Garithos was just genuinely doing his job and he merely gave Kael'thas minimal forces he deemed necessary, or are you merely pretending to? And again, even if that was true, it doesn't even begin to justify locking up Kael'thas along with his entire force when he didn't even begin to resist or challenge Garithos's authority.

Just be honest with yourself and admit that you don't really care about his integrity.

>he had no boss
He was still in service of the Alliance.

>>46410295
If blood elves indeed are pathetic soldiers who literally can not even function on a battlefield without the support of other races, and Garithos was aware of this, then yes what he did was wrong.

>>46409817
>>46409831
Why would the alliance want the blood elves? Garithos declared them traitors, they allied with the naga, they were clearly corrupted by demons, the night elves hate them.

From the Alliance's point of view, accepting Blood Elves would be doing more harm than good

>>46410335
> alright i'm sending you to the battlefield
> but without frontline troops
> without cavalry
> without siege engines
> what are you complaining about you babby?

>>46410295
Garithos never ordered them to be unarmed

>>46410319
Garithos obviouslly didn't like Kael enough to worry about him, but he was facing the majority of the Undead force in silverspine and Kael Knew there would be undead to face there.
They are the one who was the traitor then, how was it no justified?
Time for you to come up with something for a change.

I care about people thinking elves didn't had it coming after being a dick for so many times.

Does Varian had a boss? no.
So who was Garithos's boss again?

>>46410141
EQII had two factions, the "Good" faction of Qeynos and the "Evil" faction of Freeport. Certain races and classes started out assigned to one or the other but after completing the newbie areas players could activate a one-time "Betrayal Quest" and switch factions.

>>46410335
In terms of game mechanics Alliance's combined arms were very race specific.
Elves were only priests and sorceresses. They had no gunners, no artillery and no infantry. Not even archers, because dwarves filled that role.
In those missions you do get archers and elf footmen though, I think.
That's all abstractions for purpose of game mechanics though.

>>46410350
> who needs those when you have air force.

>>46410367
except you do get elven swordsmen and elven archers as elves.
They also appeared when Undead attack quel'thalas so no they are not for purpose of game mechanics. (elves was going to be a force of their own before BZ cut it)
and if you are on normal dragonhawk rider will easily win that map for you.

>>46410354
>They are the one who was the traitor then, how was it no justified?
Who was traitor? The footsoldiers? The peasants? Are you retarded?
And all of this because he improvised when fulfilling the objective with the crippled forces and strong opposition? Not to mention that if you DO make do without Naga assistance, the events play out exactly the same way.

>I care about people thinking elves didn't had it coming after being a dick for so many times.
So you are a petty faggot as well. Noted.

>Does Varian had a boss?
Yes, the nation he rules. And he's a monarch, not just military commander.
Just because you're in charge does not mean you can discard your underlings because your feefees are hurt. Maybe if you are a shitty dictator you can, but even then it's sign of your failure and weakness.

>>46410336
Did any alliance at all survive from Garithos' army? I thought Sylvanas and her Dreadlord BFF wiped them all out, how would the Alliance find out about the naga alliance?

>>46410381
Entire classification of warcarf units is for purpose of game mechanics.

If you want to go by the fluff, there's not much to suggest either way but it's not unreasonable to assume that elven units would be specialized for the entire force to benefit from synergies.

And citing option of cheesing the game mechanics as evidence that the job was doable is not very solid either.

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>>46410459
Scarlet Crusade

>>46410459
The scarlet crusade consists of remnants of Garithos's forces, and there are scarlet crusade members in Stormwind, so the Alliance definitely knows

>>46410461
It is retarded to assume that since the Elves were their own force before they join Garithos.
Why would their troop be "Specialized" when they had no allies?

Garithos never said anything about "air force" being pull off the area.
So Dragonhawk riders being there is both in-lore and they are strong enough for the job.

>>46410470
>>46410498
Ah my bad, missed out on that bit of information. Cheers.

>>46410504
>It is retarded to assume that since the Elves were their own force before they join Garithos.
Alright, I guess those men Garithos recalled from Kael's forces were some sort of illusions then.

>So Dragonhawk riders being there is both in-lore and they are strong enough for the job.
Right, I'm sure it makes perfect sense in-lore that Kael'thas was walking around with a fleet of dragonhawks in tow and it's not at all case of game mechanics giving you means of magically spawning arbitrary amount of them in your structures.

>>46410511
I don't think there's any canon stating that the Scarlet Crusade has any relation to Garithos, but Dalaran obviously knew.

>>46410529
Kael was commanding nothing but elves when he meet Tyrande.
There's no reason to assume that Kael had no human soldiers assigned to him either.
If you want to go by the letter than those who left are all humans.

They were right next to Dalaran, its much more in lore that Dragonhawk riders can just fly their ass there than getting any other sort of force to deal with the Undead.

Stop using the "its a game mechnics" to justify your shit if you can't come up with better in lore stuff.

>>46410571
>If you want to go by the letter than those who left are all humans.
Actually if you want to go by the letter, those who left are ALL infantry and cavalry and support, irrespective of race.
>"Unfortunately, your forces may be a little thinned. You see, Lord Garithos has also ordered that all foot soldiers, cavalry and support teams report to the front lines immediately. You men, move out!"
And you still failed to justify executing rank and file soldiers and workers
>So, Kael, you've shown your true colors at last. I knew you were in league with those serpents. Now I have all the proof I need to execute every traitorous one of you!