So I will be running a Supers game for my group (likely M&M

>>46073661
Run 3e rather than 2e.

>>46073661
Superheroes are my favorite subject matter of any form of consumable media, so I don't want for material to pull from. But bringing the unspeakably broad genre to life at the table requires expectations to be set and tone established so that everyone is on the same page. Everyone has a different idea in their head when they hear Superhero so on and so forth.

>>46073679
I like 2e better as a ruleset. It includes lethality and knockback in the base rules and includes a firm graduated damage benchmark as well as human limits scored out. This may be largely synthetic but it additionally feels like your points go further in 2e for a more personalized character sheet. Comparing a 3e sheet to a 2e sheet, 3e just has less to say about your character.
NIGGLING PERSONAL PREFERENCE. But I am open to convincing.

No speedsters.

>>46073661
>Ruinous powers you wouldn't expect
While I'm not very familiar with M&M, I will say that speedsters are OP as fuck any time they're not being actively gimped by writers.
If I can move faster than the speed of sound, that means I can PUNCH faster than the speed of sound. Which is insanely powerful.

>>46074302
In M&M, "super speed" is basically only cruising speed.
You don't get extra actions.

>>46073661
>Ruinous powers you wouldn't expect.
Super Speed. They will go first, and if it is coupled to a powerful strike, they won't need to go again unless the GM fiats the villain's survival, which benefits the player because hero points.

Complete concealment. Can be done without TOO much difficulty, and makes a character impossible to find. And, therefore, almost impossible to hit or fight.

High Toughness characters. They can take a retarded amount of punishment and still not go down. High Defense means if they get hit they're in trouble (and a crit always hits anyway), but high Toughness doesn't give a fuck, especially if they've done something like Toughness +14 or +15 with 15 ranks of Impervious on top.

Also, the progression tables for 2E are designed in such a way that as long as players put a decent few points into some sort of travel power (teleport or flight), the idea of distance means shit all. High Flight characters can quite easily speedblitz from one side of a state to the other.

Dimensional Travel. For two points, or whatever it is, you have a guaranteed escape route. I recommend banning it.

Lastly, beware of the Shapeshift power and all its derivatives. All the player needs to do is pick out the powers they want for that encounter, and they'll have them. Including some of the stuff noted above.

Basically, even the starting Paragon level of PL 10 will be extremely high-power in terms of how it works as contrasted with how other d20 games work. You really, really need to work with your players to come up with reasonable, balanced characters. It should be a requirement, really. The system's style is knowingly or not designed in a way that it necessitates a great deal of GM-Player interaction during character building.

>>46073953
Easy to counter.

>>46074302
Not really. Speedsters don't get extra actions just because and are pretty easy to counter.

>>46075125
The problem with speedsters isn't necessarily in combat, though it can be a problem with the required secondary powers, but is also out of it. They can do things far faster than anybody else. Need to search a library? Done. Need to disable a death ray? They did it in the time it took you to read this, and picked up coffee from that place you like in Paris while you were waiting.

>>46074891
>>46075125
I don't mean times I can punch you. I mean how fast my fist is moving when I punch you one time.
The current record holder for fastest punch in the world is 44 miles per hour (held by Keith Liddell, also record holder for longest punch at 10 feet 10 inches, and most speed bag punches in a minute at 581).
Imagine the sheer IMPACT of a truly supersonic punch, traveling at 915 mph or more.

>>46075164
Mind you, I'm not talking game mechanics here either, as I mentioned. I just mean that super speed would be OP as shit if a real person had it.

>>46075151
Unless the speedster has high ranks in technology and some good offensive modifiers to take out the deathguard that defends the deathray, provided he manages to get through all the traps with a high perception DC, I don't see that happening.

>>46075164
>>46075175
Except we don't talk real life shit because superspeed punches mean that you hit once superfast and then your limb is useless because of the force exerted.

>>46075164
>>46075151
On this note... this reminds me of that one City of Heroes trailer where the local speedster of the hero team runs in to scout the building of the supervillains and gets his asshole ripped apart.

>>46073661
its very easy to break the game

>>46075289
It's very easy to say no aswell.

>>46075307
>It's very easy to say no aswell.
If that were true, we would only have half as many threads on /tg/.

>>46075333
People just need to stop being pussies.

Luckily my players are mostly manageable. We have a combo Reed Richards level intellect cripple boy who develops a bio prosthetic (symbiote), a rescue robot/ Japanese idol who is infected with a virus that is slowly transforming her into war incarnate, a magneto, and a weird dark matter/space controller. Im worried a tad about easy teleporting.

>>46075413
Unless they take innate teleporting abilities, you're fine.

Weaver Dice.

>>46075197
Requisite secondary power for superspeed is the ability to survive the stresses exerted. If you could actually move your limbs fast enough to run that fast, you would be putting them under so much force that you would dislocate them INSTANTLY unless you have a passive secondary power that lets you survive your own abilities.

>>46075448
>Weaver Dice.
Elaborate.

>>46075164
>I mean how fast my fist is moving when I punch you one time.
Doesn't matter. Damage effect works the same.

You CAN substitute your Speed rank for your Strength rank when punching somebody, but Flash doing that is going to be only marginally more damaging than Superman's regular punch.

>>46075525
Not if we're talking reality. You'd also have to have extreme toughness and strenght to do so. So no, in my games speedsters are not overpowered because I can shoot down any of your reasoning easily enough.

>>46075943
Good thinking.

>>46075591
Fanmade Game based on wormverse. Not sure if wildbow wrote it or not.

>>46075943
>marginally more damaging than Superman's regular punch
I'm not very familiar with M&M, is this a thing characters can do a lot?
The strong dude not being the one who punches the hardest seems like a design flaw, unless the example Superman is kinda split between strength and speed or something.

>>46076695
>is this a thing characters can do a lot?
What thing, punching harder than Superman?
No, not a lot.
But it's THE FLASH.
The fastest guy in the book.

>>46073661
So, will standard combat be hard enough when my players, in general, are all-arounders without many actual powers?

>>46076867
Depends on how hard you make it for them, really.

If none of them have will based attacks and you pit them against someone with a shitload of fort and weak in will defense, it will be challenging for them.

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>>46076784
Anon, it's The Flash.

>>46076952
What book is that panel from anyway? What's he chewing out Supes for?

>>46076784
Actually I don't think anybody does.
Even Darkseid has 1 less Strength than Superman.
(he wins on damage with Omegabeams, but not punching)

>>46077015
Superman #709.
It's part of an arc called "Grounded", where Supes decides to walk, at normal human pace, across the country, in order to reconnect with the people he protects.
Earlier in the issue, Barry had joked that all he sees when he runs across the country is a blur. He's just explaining that his previous comment was just a smartass remark.

>>46073661
Combat gets boring. You need to give players a wide variety of different things to do, because a lot of them will have just one trick or power they can repeat ad nauseam. It's called the Cyclops Problem.

>>46077311
Ah.

>>46077408
This could be said for most systems.

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>>46075333
Yeah, only this time it's literally baked into the rules.

The rulebook flat out says: We are giving you the TOOLS TO PLAY SUPERS. Shit WILL break if you just let people do so, and it's not hard. This is a GAME and meant to be FUN for everyone. Tell people no if it is required.

Anyone got any interesting builds?

>>46076695
>>46076784
This is one of the issues with a comic book setting in an RPG format. In MnM, either edition, by default speed does not make you any more likely to be able to land a hit, nor does it add striking force, you have to actually buy those effects. And even then, the greatest advantage for speedsters in combat is being able to use a feat to move in, hit, and leave before it's the enemy's turn. The fact you're a million times faster, DOES NOT make you any harder to hit on it's own, not unless you buy Defense, or Dodge/Parry in 3e. Countering even the best MnM speedster, is as simple as using a confined space, and AOE/highly accurate attacks. If they can't run out of range or sight, then when it's the bad guy's turn, the speedster is where he is and can be targeted just like anyone else.

>>46073661
Someone will probably try to make a brooding loner type (eg Batman). They will most likely fail and make an sulking, edgy, self righteous murderous vigilante that refuses to get involved or even work with other characters.

The good news is that there's an easy way to avoid this.

Demand the player explain why he works with others if he's such a loner and then make him explain why other heros would put up with his shit.
If the answer to the first question is to keep an eye on them, tell him to make a new character.
If the answer to the second question is that they need his skills, then tell him to make a new character.

Both answers indicate the player will spend the game refusing to do anything that isn't loiter on rooftops and acting like a prick.

>>46073661
>Killer Heroes

This will fuck up a campaign right quick (unless you're going for a Punisher or The Authority campaign)

Dead villians don't build the universe. They don't build that magical relationship that the villians and heroes of comics have.

Spiderman and The Green Goblin
Superman and Lex Luthor
Batman and The Joker
The X-Men and Magneto

Its the relationship between heroes and villians that drives the campaign beyond a modern dungeon crawl with capes.

Then there's the fact that killer heroes attract killer villians and assassins. And if they aren't taking down heroes, then they aren't a threat.

Granted, if a villian gets captured and is released on a technicallity the next day, they're gonna get angry and go full vigilante. There's nothing wrong with villians escaping, but make sure that they're running away scared and humiliated, rather than victorious.

>>46075108
inb4 atomic banana peel

>>46082323
If you want full application of high grade superspeed, then you will run into a problem:
Super speed wins everything forever.
If you have more speed than your enemy, you win. If he has, you lose.

>>46084072
>inb4 wet, slippery floor

>>46076420
He wrote it to play on space battles is currently gming a game last I checked.

>>46082323
>>46085682
Yeah, just look at any sufficiently autistic "who would win" community.
Main exercise is calculating how exactly fast is either of the characters involved and then declaring that the faster one blitzes the slower one without giving him a chance to retaliate.

>>46074302
MnM doesn't have "buy one power with infinite application, break everything" - all powers are bought point by point as specific effects.

So speedster buys his cruising speed, then quickness to complete extended tasks faster, then separate power to buy Flash's "whip up a whirlwind" trick, etc.

Dimensional Travel as an attack with the Perception range. Most busted thing I've ever seen in a superhero RPG

>>46089980
Until the GM brings them all back at once in a big interdimensional breakout.

>>46075108
Yes, with powers that are specifically designed to fuck speedsters.

>>46085682
You are wrong.

>>46090043
>someone pours a bucket of water and soap to clean the floor
>someone sets up a rope to trip whomever runs through the doorway
>someone drops a few dozens d4
>someone drops a couple of bags eith marbles
>someone put a bulletproof glass door in the middle of the corridor

Are you even trying?

>>46073827
Not that guy but just fucking run 3e. It's less of a headfuck of a system.

My only experience with 2e was reading some guys doing charop while statting Kamen Riders.
Most of it was total abuse of Channeled/Requires Key flaws to stack things up to 5:1 pp conversion. That's one blatant bullshit that's not supposed to work the way they made it work.
And doing Reaction-tier action dodge everything move for timestopper Rider which also doesn't necessarily achieve anything they want it to achieve.
So that's somewhat biased experience, while 3e just seems sleek (not without flaws, mind you, I realise some possible abuse and tricks)

Soo, what does 3e significantly change from 2e?

>Trying to apply logic to superheroes

It's not meant to make sense.

>>46073827
Lethality and knockback are in 3e, they're just in the GM's guide (which you should own, it's fucking sweet)

>>46090627
Lethality is in the core too, in the sidebard near the start of GM's section.

>>46090070
Quickness of a minor level (rank 5 at least) will outmaneuver all of those defenses.

>>46090671
No, because it only makes you work faster. To see danger faster and react accorsingly you need high perception. And the faster you go, the higher the DC will be.

Also, active defenses aren't as useful as passive ones.

>>46091285
Superspeed does not make it harder to go through difficult terrain.

If you don't have Agility and Acrobatics in top shape while super speedstering, wtf are you doin anyway?

>>46091339
Superspeed doesn't automatically mean heightened senses and, by extension, reflexes. It also doesn't imply time control.

Someone might be able to break the sound barrier by running, but that won't mean he will see the threat fast enough to avoid it. Just because someone is able to throw a thousand punches in ten seconds, does not imply that others are actually slowing down when he attacks or defends or anything.

>>46091541
Yes it does. It by default includes everything in "not getting fucked by your own power" package.

>>46092014
If someone has the ability to throw things on the ground which have a set DC as an ability ranking and as an effect, it isn't going to get easier to avoid it just because you get superspeed, period.

>>46092209
Yes, but neither it's going be some "super speed counter".

Also a general type of character that has superspeed has supplemental skills that will let them avoid it.

Even if they don't just blatantly wall run like half of them can.

>>46092445
I wouldn't allow wall running and I would make sure to add some rules to nerf them if they get too op. Just as I said: I make it so that perception, dodge and other DCs are a lot harder if they run over hazardous terrain very fast.

Because they don't have super senses. I won't allow it.

>>46092765
Soo you just nerf super speed outta the blue because you think it's supposed to be OP as fuck despite nothing in the system making it so?

Get players in the right mindset. A super plot usually means that the villain wins and maybe captures them at first. A lot of players are used to fighting tooth and nail to avoid this. Instead, they must realize that being placed in an overly elaborate and easily escapable death trap is EXACTLY what they want to happen. Just be really clear about the assumptions they should make of the setting.

If you're doing a parody of gritty comics, they should kill everyone who even looks at them while being high on heroin. Also, they should all have a dead lesbian girlfriend.

>>46093247
No, I nerf it only if it turns out to be OP, which it probably isn't.

By the way, superspeed doesn't allow people to run on walls. Please stop misinterpreting the rules.

>>46092765
This anon hates fun and should be avoided. Any wank about realism or balance is totally secondary to a good character concept that is fun for the group. A speedster who goes too fast and trips constantly might be fun in some games, but wrong in others. Nit-picking every mechanical edge case is fun for charop, but not in game. Does every speedster have to buy super tough eyeballs to handle the air as they run?

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>>46093574
>complains that speedsters are OP
>I point out a few ways to nerf the supposed OPness

>oh my god he hates fun

>>46093631
Hisoka, pls, don't you have underage boys to molest or something?

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>>46093658

>>46093631
>Posts anime pick
>"It's okay to nerf because having X superpower is powerful"
The point of super hero games is to pretend to be powerful.

>>46093546
It's not a function of superspeed but just about every speedster in the book has it bought.

>>46090652
Oh. It's been a while since I looked over M&M, sorry