/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

>>46040196
Other thread
>>46039817

>>46040196
I'm still hyped for Mage2e, even if it isn't coming out any time soon.

Also lowkey hyped for Deviant.

>>46040300
Other thread is trash and bitching.

>>46040300

Please stop this nonsense!
The combo thread works.

>>46040304

Yeah, I heard CoD Mage 2ED will be very interesting.

I'm hyped for the promised One WoD.
No wonder what it'll be like...

>>46040310
>>46040319
I'm just linking the two thread together in case anyone wants out of one the other is there.

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>>46040196

Has anyone ever tried to apply CoD rules to WoD?

I mean playing new World of Darkness games with the old lore (clans, classic mage traditions, etc).

Did it work?

I'm considering to change to CoD, but my group loves the old stuff.
How fucked am I?

>>46040417

Oh, ok.
I think it'd be wiser to stick with the old formula.

chronicles of fagness

>>46040420
Why would you change it? The classic stuff is way better than the new one. Deep lore might go retarded sometimes, but the descriptions and ambiance are top notch.

>>46040449
See we got >>46040476 into this thread, clearly this is promised thread of shit posting.

>>46040524
If by, "Top notch," you mean, "The edgy goth kid that every middle school in America had at least one of in the early 90's," then sure.

>>46040524
As I said I'm still considering it.
Not really sure how everyone would react to the new stuff.

And why would I change it?
Well I heard the new rules are much better / easier.
You know: change is the only constant.

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>>46040562
>tfw you will never play cWoD in the 90's

I'm sure it was fun.

>>46040196
Saturday, Thursday and Tomorrow are my game days, so I'm pretty hype for those

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>>46040557
>See we got >>46040476 into this thread, clearly this is promised thread of shit posting.

kek

>>46040732
What will you play, fampai?
Is it any good?

>>46040420
For vampire specifically, i'll tell you that converting the stuff you like to CoD mechanics works decently well, at least in my experience.

Even though they were written for 1e, the translation guides help a lot.

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>>46027890
>thinking that every Malkavian grill is as hot as the busty one with daddy issues in Bloodlines

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>>46040828
Thanks for the info!
I'll try it, then.

Also
>Even though they were written for 1e
What about 2nd ed?
Could it still work?

>>46040420
Lots and lots and lots of power converting would have to be done. Also the fact that mechanics support the themes means you would be forced into using clunky, overlapping disciplines to represent all the disciplines

Divide the fucking threads

Gas the fucking old worlders

>>46041072
But I like games in both systems.

>>46041072
You know they are here, right?
The other thread has died down sense I linked them.

On another note, how you guys think "To The Strongest" is going to work out. I'm a little apprehensive about it myself, I'm just can't figure out how they are going to work out the fact that once the mummy goes back to Duat he won't be back for a hundred years. At that point the mage character is probably dead.

>>46041184
TTS is not a mummy crossover. It does have Egyptian mages in it, but as it's set roughly halfway through a Sothic period, Arisen are as vanishingly rare as they'll ever be.

Princes of the Conquered Land is the name of the mage/mummy crossover, in the Dark Eras Companion. It's set in a particularly turbulent 50-year period, and the Arisen have reasons for their Cults to raise them.

>>46040991

Most of the basic transitions are still useful. Vampire's a bit inaccurate in terms of certain exact abilities since the Disciplines got beefier and the Coils are totally different, Werewolf is mostly the same (and Metis specifically got an update to 2e in a blog Stew made). Mage will probably be the most inaccurate since so much of 2e is an overhaul. Demon is probably your best bet for a "WoD Lore, CofD Mechanics" game, since they're both converted at their most current editions AND it has a lore crossover section so you can use all the books.

>>46041184
>On another note, how you guys think "To The Strongest" is going to work out. I'm a little apprehensive about it myself, I'm just can't figure out how they are going to work out the fact that once the mummy goes back to Duat he won't be back for a hundred years. At that point the mage character is probably dead.
Or an archmage and completely outside his scope.

Where da wight wimmin at?

>>46041258
Thank you for correcting me on which one its called. But if you don't mind me asking, whats the pull for Mages and Mummies to work together? Is something from Duat breaking out?

Also what do Mages think of AMKHATA, as they are the Nukes of yesteryear?

>>46040796
Wednesday is a Changeling the Lost 2e clusterfuck of houserules and amazingness. Its basically the GM saying "What if everything in the WoD was Changelings?" and then he made such a setting. We are investigating why a full grown bear was up a tree and its innards decided to start walking around on pearly white spider legs while having some sort of pseudo-mask.

Thursday is Mortals, a game where a total normalfag, a recovering occultist (with some sort of insanity, dunno what yet) and my character, a street punk who looks prettier than any straight police officer is afraid to admit, are all investigating the death of a mutual friend who they found dead in a flowing over bathtub with her wrists slit cross the street. Lane, my character, quickly realized things were "Fucky as hell" and investigation happened shortly after by the group. I've been told by the GM that I'll be able to make use of my 5 dots of Street Fighting when we get to it.

Last, Saturday, is VtM. I'm playing a Malk with schizophrenia who will be joining the Corterie, likely after being introduced to the Court. GM has told me that one of my Malk merits will be a reason I've been passed around to various Vampires within the court by my Sire as a favor and such.

hype pretty real

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Is Matter a gud Arcana?
Anything compliment it?

>>46041504
All arcana are good arcana.

>>46041504
Matter is pretty good IMO. Prime and Forces compliment it, or rather it compliments them.

Would a neurologist mage focus most on Mind, Life, or Forces?

>>46041578
they could awaken to anything
but if they wanted to focus on neurology, life and mind in that order

>>46041600
>life and mind in that order
This. Opposite order for psychiatrist.

Do Mages have any theories on why there's no human spirits?

>>46041705
Why would there be?

>>46041823
Because there's spirits of everything except humans.

>>46041833
things with souls don't have spirits

>>46041705
Sapience. Our thoughts radiate too many kinds of Essence for there to be a single kind of "human" essence.
Lots of spirits are human-like.

>>46041852
I think it's rather that we are connected to our own realm in the Astral. It's separated by the huge-ass border-stone that is Language.

>>46041852
Prometheans don't have spirits either.
>>46041853
That doesn't make sense.

>>46041887
>Prometheans don't have spirits either.
How do you know that?

>>46041887
Prometheans have insanely intense proto-souls

>>46041852
That would suggest you could remove a human's soul and create a human spirit.

>>46042119
Sounds like something for a mage to test

>>46042119
Let's not forget that the Idigams might be the spirit of humanity.

>asking the storyteller for a Hallow
>temporarily burning physical stats and health for Mana
>ritual sacrifice
What other ways can a Mage regain Mana?

>>46042188
Having a Legacy

>>46042119
Perhaps, but you would need to remove the souls of a lot of humans, and then keep them living long enough for spirits to form.

>>46042188
Starting with an Artefact. It generates 1 per day.
Grab one that gives you access to an off-path Mage Sight. 4 dots. As simple as it gets.

>>46042188
Death permits you to ravage other people's patterns for Mana.
Prime allows you to ravage unliving objects for Mana.

>>46042163
No, Idigams are pretty specifically the spirits of concepts that are no longer around, iirc. Humanity is still going strong.

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>>46042341
That's one option, there are other ones.

>>46042405
I stand corrected.

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>>46042524
Your option is very much there, its just one of 7 options they give.

>>46042188
Artifacts and Familiars are both really broken ways to get Mana.

>>46042207
Nah you'd just need one, and with spirit magic you could guarantee nothing eles would eat the essene.

>>46041471
Hi Inene

>>46042610
Yeah, I got that. I thought dead concepts was the only option for them, for some reason

>>46041504
Matter is an extremely good Arcanum. It's one of the two major utility Arcana (the other being Forces). The main upside to Matter is that your Arcanum's purview is EVERYWHERE. You will always, always have matter to cast on.

Add to this a basic knowledge of chemistry, and you can do some deeply hideous bullshit.

>>46042651
One of anything isn't enough to make a spirit

>>46042653
sup unidentified dork

>>46042692
Yes, it is.

>>46042692
It's more than enough. It may not be a powerful spirit but it would have a reflection in the Shadow.

>>46042688
>basic knowledge of chemistry
You don't even need that, with Matter you can make concrete conductive, or water flammable.

Thinking about it do you guys think Spirit 5 is enough to create a spirit?
I know a Death Mage can create a Ghost from a person. So can't a Spirit Mage awaken/create a Spirit from items/objects/creatures?

>>46042746
Well sure, but chemistry lets you pull entirely nonmagical bullshit that your magic just sets up.

>>46042692
It technically is.
However it's unlikely to conceal on its own, so you'll need to help it along a bit with some major spiritual mojo or magic.

>>46042753
I think AWaken spirit is 2 or 3 dots
that creates a spirit of whatever

>>46042753
Shape Spirit (Spirit ••••)
Practice: Patterning
Primary Factor: Potency
Suggested Rote Skills: Crafts, Medicine, Persuasion
When no tool is ready to hand, the shaman shapes one from what is available. This spell allows the mage to reshape a spirit’s fundamental nature. She may invoke a number of the following effects equal to the spell’s Potency:
Change the spirit’s fundamental nature; for example, making a mouse spirit into a spirit of bad luck and mischief.
Redistribute the spirit’s Attribute dots.
>Redefine and redistribute the spirit’s Influences.
Add, remove, or replace one Manifestation.
Add, remove, or replace one Numen.
Rewrite the spirit’s Ban and Bane.
She can also alter the spirit’s size, shape, and appearance as she sees fit, within the limits of the spell’s Target Size Factor. The spirit’s new Traits must stay within its Rank-derived maximums

Four dots to turn any spirit into any other kind of spirit.

>>46042753
Thing is, everything has a Spirit, so there's no need usually to "create" one.

I mean, if you wanted to create a Fire spirit in the Shadow Realm of deep dark oceans, then you'd probably need the Practice of Making.

Remember, you could use Spirit 1 with the Practice of Compelling to ever so slighly rouse a sleeping Spirit from any given object.

You could probably create a Toaster Spirit out of a Toaster, and a Perfecting spell.
Or possibly Ruling if it was only a hair's breadth away from awakening in the first place.

>>46042753
Yes, you can create a spirit with Spirit 5

>>46042888
Cool, so how does increasing the Ranks of spirit work. Cause I'm thinking of a mage that creates a spirit of an item turn it into a rank 5 spirit then bind it into said item to create a 5dot fetish.
Im sure that would wirk right.

So there are human spirits, they just rely on mages to make them.

What's the best order/path/legacy for avoiding combat whenever humanly possible?

>>46042998
since spirit 4 can't do it spirit 5 probably can

>>46043000
Or something hellish is created.

>>46043018
mastigos/apostate

can use mind to sway any enemies away
space to actually move them away

apostate has no political ties and no political rivalries

>>46042888
Could you create an Idigam, assuming the "idigam are spirits of X" explanations are true?

>>46043054
>apostate
You can't be serious.

>>46043035
Only if Paradox was involved. If you're casting a spell you're bringing your Truth to the universe. Something hellish is created only if you wanted to create something hellish.

>>46043064
Me thinks thats a bit above a normal mages pay grade.

>>46043064
better hope not, you can't contain one

oops there goes your soul

>>46043072
Staying out of politics IS a good way to stay out of fights though.
Until a Banisher Cult finds you, of course.

>>46043116
>Until a Banisher Cult finds you, of course.
which is why you focus on mind
when they do find you "this is not the magic you're looking for"

>>46043116
Politics will get you into arguments.
Banishers will literally murder you.

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>want to download v20 splats
>theres nothing for v20 in the mega

w-why bros ;_;

>>46043137
Unless they focus on Prime, or Mind as well, and counterspell your shit. Or just shield against it.

>>46043157
Oh yes. But Mage politics can be quite cutthroat.

>>46043179
>Unless they focus on Prime, or Mind as well, and counterspell your shit. Or just shield against it.
In which case it doesn't matter your path/order, they were going to kill the fuck out of you anyways.

>>46043192
>Staying out of politics IS a good way to stay out of fights though.

Yeah. But if you are part of a community, the Banishers might think twice about striking, and go for someone weaker.

>>46043161
The devs post here occasionally. Ask them and they'll give you some. :^)

>>46043209
Unless by community you're referring to your consilium where all the mages live in the same house it doesn't sound like that would matter. They're insane and broken, low Integrity and have enough magic to shield and counterspell you, they can also do it to others. They'd just kill you after stepping over the corpses of your buddies.

>>46043209
you'd still inherit all the other enmities
banishers will be an enemy either way
the other rivalries don't have to be
better odds as apostate

>>46043280

Not all of them. Groups like the Timori are organised.

>>46043325
Then they won't be deterred by their target having a friend.

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>>46043236

Just gibe the splats and nobody gets hurt.

>>46043157
>>46043179
Banishers usually try to murder the Mages who are actually a problem, not the Apostates who just want to be left alone and mind their own business.

They're convinced Mages are evil, so usually they prioritize the ones who are actually USING it for evil.

>>46043542

Dude, ALL magic use is evil to Banishers. That's kind of the whole thing; Magic is the literal most awful thing they can conceive of, no matter what it's being used for or how or even how often. Being a mage is itself a sin.

Apostates are exactly as evil as any other mage, because they are mages, period. The only reason Banishers don't all kill themselves for being mages is because the ones still standing are the ones who couldn't bring themselves to do it.

>>46040196
I'm hyped for The Pack and Dark Eras. I love me some Werewolves and I really want to see Neolithic Mage and the other stuff.

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>>46043592
yay

>>46043584
>Banishers are Mage-killing robots who don't understand the concept of degrees of evil
I'd hate to play in your games.

>>46043584
>The only reason Banishers don't all kill themselves for being mages is because the ones still standing are the ones who couldn't bring themselves to do it.
Or they're saving themselves for last, so they can take out as many sinners as they can before they die.

>>46043636
He's right, though. If Banishers only killed evil mages, Right-Handed willworkers would have nothing to worry about, because they'd only go after the Left-Handed fucks. But they don't, they go after ANYBODY, hence why they're an issue.

>>46043584
>Dude, ALL magic use is evil to Banishers. That's kind of the whole thing; Magic is the literal most awful thing they can conceive of, no matter what it's being used for or how or even how often. Being a mage is itself a sin.
Reminder that the Banishers book itself has a Banisher Legacy, composed entirely OF Banishers, that explicitly believes the practices of Knowing, Unveiling and (I believe) Shielding and Veiling are fine, because they're not Mages imposing their will on reality.

This is not presented an outlier for Banishers.

Banishers are a fair bit more nuanced than you're saying. The "still have an Integrity score, every casting is 'IT HURTS, NESS, IT HURTS'" Banishers are a minority.

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>>46043670
>Right-Handed willworkers would have nothing to worry about,
>thinking left-handed practitioners are any more evil

>>46043684
>The "still have an Integrity score, every casting is 'IT HURTS, NESS, IT HURTS'" Banishers are a minority.
they all have integrity

>>46043670
I said "prioritize".

And Banishers may not have the same definition of "evil use of Magic" as the Pentacle. For example, the Timori mentioned in >>46043684 think any magic use of three dots or higher is evil reality-rape.

Even your craziest Banisher is probably going to agree that a Scelesti who regularly calls down Abyssal Manifestations needs to die before the guy who sits in his lab all day brewing up Tass tea and Veiling his house so he doesn't get bothered by Jehovah's Witnesses.

>>46043718
>Mages call any mage who turns on her own kind to act like a hunter a Banisher, but like other antagonists the term covers a number of different phenomena. SOME mages fall to trauma or insanity through the dangers of magic and decide that it has to be stopped. Certain Left-Handed Legacies consume or destroy magic to power themselves, like the Timori and Logophages. *Finally, SOME mages’ Awakenings go wrong, leaving them with the Integrity Advantage instead of Wisdom—which means they experience magic, even their own Peripheral Mage Sight, as pain or fear, and lash out to make it stop.* What’s worse is that SOME forms of Banishing are contagious under conditions the Orders don’t understand—friendly contact with a Banisher, even well-meaning attempts to turn them around, sometimes results in once-doctrinaire mages turning Banisher themselves.

Note the complete lack of use of the word "all" in that writeup.

The devblog on Banishers explicitly states that a hell of a lot more Mages get labelled "Banisher" than just the ones with an Integrity score.

>>46043783
You're referring to what mages call banishers, I'm talking about what the game calls banishers.

>>46043818
You're splitting hairs at this point.

Banishers are Mages who hunt Mages. Period. Some of them have Integrity scores and think all Mages need to die equally, but not all of them.

Have you guys read the whole 'Embrace the Wyrd' thing in the recent CTL 2e core thingy? Too badass for words, can't wait to put it to use

Is Dave still around?

Can we get another comment on how Awakening isn't Ascension, and deciding that maybe Mages shouldn't be a thing doesn't mean you're crazy and broken, and all sane people would be 100% behind Mages?

>>46043914
It's Demon Form, but for Changelings. Whoop-de-fucking-doo.

>>46043962
no, its going loud for Changelings. Get it right!

>>46044007
Nope, it doesn't permanently fuck them over in the way Going Loud does. It's also not as powerful.

>>46043962
Bofuckinghoo, your pore changeling has something comparable to a Vampire's frenzy, or Werewolf's Garou, or Mages Reach. Get over it.

>>46044106
No, my problem isn't that they have it. It's just that it feels so damn unoriginal.

>>46044077
going loud doesn't permanently fuck you over, it just fucks you over for a while

>>46044159
It permanently removes that cover. So yes, it permanently fucks you over. You can recover, sure, but that cover is GONE.

>>46044140
It original in the fact that they can choose the benefit every turn. They can change what they have on the fly. The others don't have that.

looks like all the creativity's gone so everything after mage is just going to be different versions of the previous games

>>46044277
Eh. Unlike the 2nd ed games, you mean?

>>46043914
>Too badass for words
Funny.
That's exactly the opposite of the way I feel about it.

>>46044318
no, talking about 2e

>>46043914
More like embrace the death rage/going loud/frenzy

>>46044189
Yeah, but what kind of demon isn't working on multiple covers at any given time?

>>46044446
Low level ones.

>>46044545
Low level demons shouldn't be getting into situations where they go loud anyways

>>46044707
Yeah. Don't use Exploits, make gadgets, or act in any way in a manner that'd attract attention until at least Primum 3. Preferably 5.

>>46044762
Drawing attention doesn't mean you need to Go Loud. Going Loud is a last resort, and if you Go Loud at the first sight of an Angel, you're going to die fast, regardless of your Primum.

>>46044820
No, I mean, don't get into any kind of situation that will make you need it.
High level hunter angels is one of the prime situations to need it.

Suppose humanity discovers the shadow and starts researching ways to open the gauntlet. How long before the world is nothing but a twisted orgy of flesh, ephemera, and suffering?

>>46044954
57 seconds.

>>46044954
Not long
tho humanity already knows about the shadow, just not humanity as a whole

>>46044954
as long as it takes to find a rank 4 or 5 spirit that wants to enter the flesh

Thinking of getting Ghost Familiar for my Moros because Moros can't into Spirit Arcana. Good idea or greatest idea?

>>46045750

You're a Moros, pal

You're already fucked no matter what you do, loser

>>46045750

Bonus points: It's your own ghost made manifest by your mentor.

>>46045829
Rude

>>46045843
And yet true

>>46045829
>>46045965
Honestly, Thyrsus is way, way more fucked with Mind as Inferior.

>>46046030
>Why is Dreamspeaker the best legacy?

>>46046228
Because it improves on the shamanistic Thyrsus themes, while not removing anything, AND it removes their inferior Arcanum.

Mind is an Arcanum that only works when you are dealing with things that have minds

Hell, any good Life mage would program themselves with instinct to go after anyone trying to fuck with their mind.

>>46046463
Exactly.

>>46046472
>Mind is an Arcanum that only works when you are dealing with things that have minds

Thankfully, you generally work with yourself. And there are very few mindless mages.

>>46046525
A mindless Mage is a worthless Mage.

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Mastigos is my favorite path

>>46046615
I fucking hate spiders.

>>46046472
Mind literally works on bugs and rabid animals.
It would work on a person stripped down it his base instincts.

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>>46046615

I prefer Obrimos, personally.

>>46046630

Same
Making this post mostly to increase the page length a bit so that image is no longer in my immediately field of view when I'm at the bottom

>>46046675
Pretty sure it doesn't, hence why Thyrsus, the folks who deal with bugs and rabid animals, have Mind as their Inferior Arcanum, because Instinct is Life

>>46046698
motherfucker are you going to make me look through the book to prove you wrong?
because you're wrong.

>>46046740
>motherfucker are you going to make me look through the book to prove you wrong?
>because you're wrong.

He isn't. You'd have to be mindless for it not to work. You are not mindless, even while raging.

>>46046698
>Making this post mostly to increase the page length a bit so that image is no longer in my immediately field of view when I'm at the bottom

Good idea. I just hid the post. Will make it easier to scroll up and down.

>>46046525
Buffing yourself is the single most boring use of the Mind Arcanum.

>>46046472

Shut the fuck up, Mind is the absolutely best arcana along with Mastigos the absolutely best path

>>46046775
I'm not sure you understand the argument we're having.
He's saying someone acting on instinct IS mindless, I'm saying they aren't.

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>>46046698
It's literally one of the easiest mind spells

>>46046871
Damn it. It's like 5:30 in the morning here. Was mixing up posts.
I meant to say I'm on your side.

Anything that has a functioning mind is target for mind. This leaves out things like plants and vegetables, but not rabid creatures.

>>46046630
I saw that little guy one morning on my way to work. I thought he looked cool

>>46046698
Your pic related is more Mastigos


Also, did anyone here every play The Secret World? It gives me huge Mage vibes

>>46046832
>Buffing yourself is the single most boring use of the Mind Arcanum

Possibly boring, but definitely VERY useful.

>>46046977
>Your pic related is more Mastigos
I dunno, I'd say that's the imago of a Prime or Forces spell in his hand, not Mind or Space
>Also, did anyone here every play The Secret World? It gives me huge Mage vibes
It gives me huge CofD vibes in general, though more Hunter than anything. The three Factions are straight up Conspiracies, with your choice of gear being weapons or supernatural merits.

>>46046977

No, I have standards

Will some hedge beasts in Changeling 2e be considered ephemeral entities, and thus possibly available as mage familiars?

>>46046977
>I saw that little guy one morning on my way to work. I thought he looked cool

It's a she. The males of that species are thin.
And yes, I am the same guy who hates spiders. Know your enemy, they say.

>>46046615

It kinda looks like a smiley face, if you squint and turn your heads sideways

The dots are the eyes and that thing below is a sort of smile

What path/order would be the best at traditional games?

>>46047016
"I give myself more dice" is a sign of lack of creativity.

Every other Arcanum can just solve problems directly. So can Mind, if you're clever about it.

>>46047048
no
some dream creatures might

>>46047368
>some dream creatures might

Dave already confirmed that astral/goetic familiars will be available along with ghosts and spirits presumably using Mind to form the bond.

I was just thinking about Mage/Changeling crossover opportunities as well as whether the Ruling Arcana for Acanthus and Obrimos might naturally lend themselves to creating familiar like those of the other three Paths.

New to Mage. Can anyone tell me how High Speech works exactly?

>>46047123
Anyone thought about if Death Mages being able to create Mementos? Much like how Spirit Mages can make Fetishes.

>>46047536
It's basically source code for reality.

>>46047536
Mechanically: you take an instant action to say some magic words, which adds +2 to your roll. If you're doing an extended spell, working it in takes half an hour.

Fluff-wise: >>46047577

>>46047577
Isn't that the Supernal?

>>46047630
Yeah, and High Speech describes the supernal

>>46047630
No, that's the OS.

>>46047311

Obrimos

>>46047679
Why?

>>46047311
Mastigos, because you can just use Mind to make the GM/ST let you do whatever the fuck you want
Although an Obrimos would be fun to have as a GM, just for Prime or Forces-based illusions for storytelling purposes
Or a Moros for magically-crafted minis and maps n shit

>>46047854
>use Mind to make the GM/ST let you do whatever the fuck you want
And the award for worst use of raw supernal power goes to

>>46047150
What is that species?

I live in Eastern Nebraska.

I know it's not a recluse

>>46047736

Because they are the best

>>46048016
Not gonna lie friend Obrimos and Mastigos probably have the highest rate of That Guys

Can you use Compelling to increase the interval of a pendelums swing? What are some examples of compelling time?

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Tonight's the night my character is scheduled to meet with his usual Wednesday breakfast that had recently become a Mage. It's been a day in game time and they arranged to meet at "their" spot off behind a tree on the campus.

His game plan:

>Bring his dog for extra comfort
>Let her know something seems different about her in a way that's just barely insulting to make her feel bad about herself
>Offer sympathetic ear
>Insist not many people know what she's going through but he can help her
>Give Kiss when she's feeling alone
>Make up something about how drinking his blood will keep her anchored and not in over her head

Any suggestions to really sell it?

Note: Kindred has 3 dots of Dominate

>>46048149
>Can you use Compelling to increase the interval of a pendelums swing?
I'd say so, within boundaries.

>What are some examples of compelling time?
Basically any changes in timespan that are "within expectation" or "within error," I guess you'd say.

If I cook a meal that takes 15 to 20 minutes, Compelling can make it take closer to 15 or closer to 20 minutes, but can't make it take 40, or 5; that's the domain of Ruling.

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Be a wandering Thyrsus who attracts spirits wherever he goes. Meet 10/10 cuties all the time in your journeys. Never get any.

>>46042622
>"spell costs are balanced because Mana is harder to get than essence or vitae"

I knew that was bullshit

>>46047311
>>46047854
Nah, Acanthus. Fate to make the die go the way that will lead to the most interesting options, and Time to quickly fix a mistake That Guy makes.

>>46048157
Breakfast is a metaphor, right? It's not morning, right?

>>46049412
Wear a hat.

Obrimos are my favorites, but they're also the worst path. How do I make myself like other paths more?

>>46049522
...A hat does not protect a vampire from turning into a sub dried fucking raisin.

>>46049577
A really big hat.

Do Mages really have to follow Path archetypes?

>>46049412
>>46049577
Breakfast is the first meal. The time of day is irrelevant.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rsYgREtll0Q

Is Ascension the only wind condition of Mage?

>>46049856
FUCK no.
Though they are archetypes for a reason.
When faced with such Supernal sympathy and symbolism, and the weight of tradition, it's more likely than not that they will fall in line.

>>46050172
Escaping the lie doesn't have to be your win condition.

Enjoying the life your powers grant, trying to make life better for normal people, or accumulating as much knowledge as you can, or achieving political or mystical power are also perfectly good win conditions.

Ascension isn't for anyone.
It's a horribly lonely life where every day you face the futility of creation when with a single mistaken spell you can accidentally erase your true love from existence.

Obrimos Songstress whose daily life is an idol singer. Yantra are singing and cheering support of fans in a stage.

>>46050274
But once you me come an Archmaster you are driven to seek Ascension right?

>>46049997
But is it breakfast for the Mage, or the fanger?

>>46050364
No, Archmasters seek ascension as they believe it is the truth, perfection. They are by no means compelled.

>>46050387
Unless there's something sinister about Mages that I didn't know, probably the fangfriend.

>>46050364
Being an Archmaster means your existential core is moved from the material, to your Golden Road in the Astral.

You can go back down and try and pretend that you're normal, but really, you've peeked behind the curtain, you've seen the majesty of creation, you've returned to the Supernal, on your own terms, and of your own volition.

Like how Mages are by nature compulsively required to hunt down mysteries because otherwise they wouldn't have Awakened. Archmasters hunt down Ascenscion, because they probably wouldn't have otherwise achieved it.

>>46050429
Some Archmasters are mages that specifically sought archmastery, though. They knew that there was more to do with their powers, heard legends, etc. An archmaster rarely achieved ascension. Almost NO ONE ascends. And those that do? Know one remembers them. The idea of an archmaster too attached to the fallen world to ascend seems feasible enough.

>>46050491
>Noone remembers them
Close Awakened friends can remember them, but they fade to the rest of the world.

>>46050491
As I recall in Imperial Mysteries you can win by getting the 10th dot of an Arcana and getting Wisdom 10

>>46050541
There are a bunch of methods of Ascension, Ascension by 10th dot spell is entirely possible.
But so is reaching Gnosis 10 and learning the ultimate Attainment of your Legacy, and that doesn't even require you to have become an Archmaster in the first place.

>>46050541
Even that's a maybe. It's believed to lead to ascension. And in 1e, the experience cost for ten dots in an arcana is insane, let alone the gnosis cost.

>>46050557
>>46050541
>>46050560
Worth noting that no method of ascension is set in stone. Ascension is Mage's GREATEST mystery.

With 2e rules how many dots would I need to cast a Dominate 5 possession spell on someone and cast my magic through her?

Which right was it that could be used to force a wolf blooded to go full awoo?

>>46050587
Enteties

>>46050587
er, rite.
>>46050605
???

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>>46050616

>>46040524
cWoD's mechanics are warmed over garbage, this is not new information. The closest you'll ever get to a usable version of cWoD's rules is what they're doing with Storypath and Scion.

>>46042119
You've just described the Purified.

>>46049412
It is the Kindred's first meal when he wakes up after the sun sets

>>46044277
We could have had David Hill's Furies game, where we're forced to play stronk womyn who fight and kill evil misogynists.

>>46050587
there is none
there's a rite that turns humans and wolf-blooded in pack into urhan form until daytime comes
its called great hunt

>>46047450
>astral
I meant changeling dream creatures, which aren't astral dream creatures

>>46051493
thats what promethean 2e is about

>>46051846
Good thing it'll never get out of Development.

Just like Mage

>>46051846

I swear to god Onyx Path if that's the case I'm dumping your ass forever.

Beast and Exalted 3 have already made me mistrust them a lot. If the second edition I'm most excited about turns out to be just as retardedly political I'm going to quit buying your books.

>>46051923
You're excited about PtC 2e? Really? Have you played much of the original Promethean? Why do you like it? How did your game go?

>>46052009

I rather liked the concept of Promethean 1e, the alchemy of the self and learning what it is to be human. Conceptually I also really liked the Centimani. I also tend to run a lot of one on one games due to scheduling, so it was ideal for that.

The things that kept me from playing it were the wasteland effect, ensuring that it was very hard or contrived to build up antagonists and interesting locales because my players would move around a lot. That and some other warts on the game.

So I'm excited to see what is being done to make it more playable.

>>46052009
>>46052159

Addendum: my biggest concern so far is that it's done by Matt.

Worst case: He's going to cut out all the social stuff, make them insufferable and the inheritors of the world and push in a ham-handed political message about refugees and Muslims or smth.

>>46052180
>He's going to cut out all the social stuff,
>all the social stuff
>in promethean

>>46052246

What can I say, he's a madman.

>>46052180
>>46052246
Matt also did Promethean 1e. He's one of the writers for the corebook.
It also seems like he's putting in MORE social stuff.

>>46052490
>Matt also did Promethean 1e. He's one of the writers for the corebook.
so he's responsible for the unsellable abomination

So, if going to the Moon in CofD gets you raped in every orifice by the Idigam, what happens when you go to Mars?

>>46052490

Good, I mean I'd love to assume it's going to be amazing but OP's recent stuff hasn't inspired confidence.

Only an idiot would assume a splat in the CofD wouldn't need social strata to work with. Looking at Beast, Matt seems to be that idiot so I'm fearing the worst.

Reading Imperial Mysteries. Is there any reason why a Master can't make a nuclear explosion are at least create the circumstances that lead to it? Why Archmastery?

>>46052180
>>46052490

Matt was definitely a WW writing and developing veteran, and he and OP decided to experiment with Beast. Not only was this inherently a risky strategy, Matt's ego sadly got in the way of good sense and he ignored his own playtesters' criticisms of the various drafts. The last minute changes were too little, too late, and the experiment was ultimately a failure.

Promethean is a very different game with a clear history of what worked and what didn't. It shouldn't suffer the same or similar problems as Beast, and will hopefully be a much improved experience like the other second edition CofD gamelines.

>>46052585
you die due to lack of oxygen and extreme temperatures

>>46052614

The example Dynamics spell in IM explains why you need a minimum of Forces 6 for a full-scale nuclear explosion.

Dave also discussed it a few threads back.

http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/username/DaveB/

http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/45982134/#45985582

>>46052637
I'm sure a Mage would have a workaround for that sort of thing.

>>46050577
I don't think you can. Its her thoughts that preform the magic not yours. Further more the dominate possession ability says this " She cannot use Disciplines or Blood Sorcery when possessing someone else, nor can she access any supernatural powers her victim may possess, but she otherwise controls his body totally."

So no magic for you.

>>46052594
Well, I mean that he's not making Disquiet so detrimental where Prometheans are forced to be complete hobos that everyone hates. Still no social groups.

Also, let's take a look at what "OP's recent stuff" is:
>Vampire 2e (amazing)
>Demon (neato)
>Dark Eras (give it to me, damnit)
>Werewolf 2e (amazing)
>Beast (lackluster)
>Mage 2e (already amazing)
>Changeling 2e (lookin' good)
>Hurt Locker and Secrets of the Covenants previews (Decent)
>Some Mummy stuff I guess (Great?)
Why do people keep acting like everything is going to be terrible? Beast's final draft isn't even that bad, just directionless. I'm fully convinced that Beast can be pretty good when it finally gets its Player's Guide. In 2025.

Writing on a VtM setting for a few friends based on our hometown, and I have a question.

The clan to which the Prince of the Camarilla belongs to makes no difference with who the Primogen of the clan is, right? I mean, if we're thinking purely unbiased. Could a Ventrue Prince have a Ventrue Primogen who don't get along, or would the former take swift action to elimiante the latter?

>>46052966
>eliminate*
You still get the point

>>46052953
I don't know think you are understand. I'm asking for a spell that mimics dominate where to hijack someone's mind and take control as if it was your body.

>>46052960

You're forgetting the bungling of the Exalted 3 Kickstarter. That cost them a lot of faith. That and Beast (You're underestimating how much that clusterfucks handling has soured me on them.)

You're also including a ton of stuff that has not been released yet. (Hurt Locker, Secrets, Changeling, Mage, Dark Eras)

The Mummy stuff was pretty damn good, but Dreams of Avarice was mostly fluff and written by one guy.

>>46053133
It was hardly bungled, it just took some time, and it's already out.

>>46052159
Here is a link to P:TC open dwv for disquiet and wasteland.
Now people won't attack you with a wasteland thus allowing more social play.
http://theonyxpath.com/disquiet-and-the-wasteland-everything-and-everyone-hates-you/

>>46051923
I mean, I can get bitching about Beast given what was actually in the game, but Exalted 3E actually looks good overall in spite of taking forever to come out.

>>46053028
So sorry, I think its a Mind 4 Life 3 spell. The free council book has it.

You know what I think could have made Beast vaugely bearable for me, being able to covers with your Horror.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ea5jKFGgUw

>>46053226
>covers
*converse

>>46053149

>Exalted 3?
> Not bungled?

Please shut up.

to start, it's 3 YEARS LATE. 3 fucking years, I'll probably have my kick-starter copy in the summer of 2017 at this rate.
It doesn't include charm trees, the art was horrendous, the revolutionary layout was utterly mundane and crap. The dev's had been hyping it up as some amazing achievement and it's merely mundane/mediocre.

Then there's the radio silence during the KS, the horrible attitude the Devs had towards people (same as Beast) and the way they were going on and on about how great it was going to be.

It was horribly bungled and you can't refute that it was. again, 3 FUCKING YEARS AND IT IS STILL NOT OUT!

>>46053149

>it's already out.

No it's fucking not.

>>46053244
>3 years later
Kickstarter is not a store. If you backed it, you backed a development process and all that entails, including delays.
>doesn't include charm trees
Oh no
>art was horrendous
Some of it was, and it's being replaced
>revolutionary layout was utterly mundane and crap
Now you're just reaching

>>46053294
You have the pdf because it's out to backers

>>46053133
>(You're underestimating how much that clusterfucks handling has soured me on them.)
No, you're overestimating how bad it was. And it's not like the things not released don't count. We've seen them. We've seen what they're like.

>>46053244
Sure, but the mechanics work now without houserules and that's all I really give a shit about.

If they basically made "Exalted 2E without Paranoia Combat" I'd have been content, as it is I really enjoy the combat and social engines.

And technically, its been "out" since the first leak in Exalted General. Everyone who gives a shit has already read it.

>>46053313

If I stored reaction images in any way, I'd put a 'opinion discarded' one here.

You're a non-backer, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Apr 9 2015
Hello EX3 backers!

TLDR version: Right now the text, after a thorough review by the Devs, is with Maria as she works her magic with the layout.

The longer version: To clarify this whole preliminary layout process, the first thing to remember is that Maria is creating a new overall visual design for EX3. There will no doubt be some connections to the previous editions, but because she is coming to this fresh, with her own years of experience in visual design, I am trying to give her a lot of room to create something that is both right for Exalted and new.

And like I mentioned above: Maria is designing this new EX3 layout format differently than any before it

It's been in layout design since APRIL 2015.

>>46053327

Whatever dude, you're not improving my opinion on OP in any way.

I've got better shit to do than arguing with you, you're not going to convince me of anything.

I'll just quote Matt at you:
"once again Beast defenders smash their way in here and are all like "What about the Beasts" and "Not all Beasts".

Imagine that being followed up by twenty posts going "lol" "you stick it them Matt" "sure put those MRAs in their place"

>>46053396
No, now it's on indexing and getting the backer charms put together.

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>>46053396
>You're a non-backer, you have no idea what you're talking about.
I am a backer, actually.

And like I said, delays are a part of the process.

>>46053469
>Imagine that being followed up by twenty posts going "lol" "you stick it them Matt" "sure put those MRAs in their place"
Many of the posts were about how fans didn't appreciate their views being dismissed or want their next game to be some sort of political message.

who cares about Holden's shitty anime game

>supporting Onyx Path

Do you enjoy being a literal cuck?

>>46053500
It's shocking how even rpg.net and Something Awful hated Beast.

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>>46053526
*tentatively raises hand*

>>46053540
Not really, Somethingawful bitches about everything and rpg.net has both sides of the political spectrum

>>46053583
But you'd think SA would totally embrace a game that enables sweet vengeance against the vile fedora-tippers.

And they practically fellate OPP in the WoD thread.

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>>46053469
Except that just like >>46053477 I'm more than aware of what you're talking about.

Matt backed down and changed the game and compromised his vision. It's not a great game, but you're bitching. And me telling you "calm down, there's more good than bad" shouldn't make your opinion worse.

I've seen that post, I've been part of the original anti-Beast hate. Also, as other people have said, you're not even right about that thread, so I'm not even sure what it has to do with anything.

>>46053632
>And they practically fellate OPP in the WoD thread.
Most of the posts I've seen have been complaints.

>>46053648

You're still of an asshole though.
When people say they are wary about further products you don't go 'nuh uh you're wrong'.

You can't police how people feel about stuff, especially when it comes to where they spend their money. If I feel like they fucked up, you saying 'nuh uh' is not going to encourage me to spend money on them.

I was recently rereading Imperial Mysteries and noticed that it failed to offer an example of the Practice of Dominions for the Forces Arcana (IM, pp. 38-39). This is quite odd considering examples were provided for every Arcana for Practices Levels 6-8.

Was there ever an official Forces Dominions example provided as an errata or by Dave, Malcolm or anyone else?

>>46052180
While Matt really dropped the ball on Beast, he's done quality work in the past.

>>46053945
He has his own game, Chill, I think. Is it any good?

>>46053733
get a load of this tumblrina faggot

>>46053733
>You can't police how people feel about stuff,
and he did police you, getting you banned and downvoting you and smearing the name of anonymous retroactively for the past decade

>>46053733
I pointed out that your fears were unfounded. You made a statement, I said "but your opinion is based on one or two things outweighing several good things". even with the mishandling of Ex3, the actual GAME seems to be on point from what I hear from Exalted fans.

You said "their previous work has me nervous", and I pointed out that their previous work has been overwhelmingly positive. You then started flipping out that it all sucks and they can't do anything right and there's no hope for the future. So it seems like, yeah, nothing I say will ever convince you otherwise, but whatever, I don't care, freak out if you want.

>>46054001
No, it's a dumb game where you have stats like "Cool".

>>46050274
What about achieving immortality on Earth? That seems viable.

>>46054185
>No, it's a dumb game where you have stats like "Cool".
Possible, it's basically Delta Green except with World of Darkness monsters instead of Lovecraft. Keeping Cool is probably comparable to a Sanity meter.

>>46053226
Well, there's nothing saying you can't, and that would be an interesting aspect to any given Chronicle that did it, I think.

The reason it isn't a default rule, I think, is because you and the Horror are intended to be of one mind. Still, could be neat to have little Doug the Ugallu Collector arguing with his Draconic Horror over how they should feed.

Just DO IT

>>46054186

Achieving immortality is effectively a "lose" condition. It's possible under a number of scenarios, but all at the expense of your humanity. Such mages are deemed liches, and are frowned upon and reviled.

>>46054244
I just don't like games where the stats are emotions and concepts. They tend to be so rules light and fluffy that it's hard for them to really... work.

Stuff like Cool, Edge, Tough, Brains, etcetera. I don't like super rules lite games.

What level of Matter would a Awakened mage need to create a bubble of air that would allow him to breathe underwater?

>>46047968
I doubt you are still here, but I just know them as cross-backed spiders. Strong enough to bite through human skin, but their venom is fairly harmless. Apparently you can get a bit sore around the bite (as it tries to dissolve you), but I've never heard of anyone even needing medical attention for it.
Those spiders are also fairly docile, so one would need to goad them into biting to begin with.

>>46054327
How does it destroy your humanity?

>>46054423
humans aren't immortal

>>46054423

Read the Liche section in Dave's Left-Handed Mages spoiler.

http://theonyxpath.com/sympathy-for-the-sinister/

>>46054366
2, I think.

>>46053632
>And they practically fellate OPP in the WoD thread.

No, you're thinking of Powered by the Apocalypse games.

>>46053754
>Forces Dominions examples

Dave actually mentioned some a few years ago. I made sure to save the link.

"Examples of Forces Dominions spells?

* Talismans that use the Forces Arcanum

* Subsouls that are Forces-based in nature. I'm thinking of a permenant Thunderstorm that is also yourself, an Ochema made of Fire, a living computer program... Imagine a Free Council Archmage turning the Internet into a Subsoul... Now Imagine a Tetrarch doing it."

http://forums.whitewolfarchive.com/defaulta7f2-5.html?g=posts&m=1258683#post1258683

>>46054001

Chill's pretty dang good but it's got one foot in modern gaming and one foot in classic gaming and while the fusion works in Chill I don't think it's gonna connect with a lot of people. It's a great compromise between the Pacesetter and Mayfair version, though.

>>46054185

>You said "their previous work has me nervous", and I pointed out that their previous work has been overwhelmingly positive.

We'll have to disagree on that then.
Also, if that's flipping out. Yeah I guess I flipped out, but I wasn't particularly angry.

I'm more just incredibly depressed and don't feel much at all, but that's not because of anything you said or because f any OP stuff.

We just disagree on how bad some of the stuff was, you think there's no problem, I think there is. Let's leave it at that.

>>46054518
It doesn't really explain why any of that is bad, though.

>>46054956
That's because just getting rid of your humanity isn't bad. It's a big change, but it's just a change.

>>46054956

This topic has been discussion repeatedly and at length.

The methods for serious life extension require the commission of horrible atrocities or turning yourself into terrible and/or unknowable monsters. These are universally considered "bad things."

Never forget that death is a natural and expected transition (as exemplified by the Moros Path), immortality upsets the natural order, and that Mage is a *horror* game, not sci-fi, transhuman or urban fantasy,

If you want to try to achieve near or total immortality without *most* of the associated negative issues and repercussions, your best avenue is archmastery, although this has its own ample concerns.

>>46055189
>>46055189
ok so i have never played mage
what horribly atrocities do you need to commit to make yourself live longer?
don't vampires live forever? why can't you just magic yourself into a vampire or something

>>46055259
>don't vampires live forever? why can't you just magic yourself into a vampire or something
because it's beyond their ability

>>46055259
Mages can't be embraced, and vampirism is the very definition of committing atrocities to prolong your existence.

Some liches do steal their victims' life force or souls as a form of quasi-vampirism. The Tremere even have a ghoul equivalent!

>>46055259

Vampires are undead beings who drink the blood of the living to survive, destroyed by sunlight and are cursed by a murderous beast for a soul. They are a pox on humanity. To the extent possible, and to no one's surprise, mages would never consider turning yourself into a vampire to be a Wise decision.

As indicated in the spoiler, other methods for significant life extension usually require similar terrible acts life murder and soul theft, the biggest crime in mage society, or hanging you into something far from human.

The issue is not whether the various Arcana can be used to extend your life, they can, but whether the costs and repercussions are remotely acceptable or Wise. Attempting significant life extension makes you into a criminal abomination in the eyes of most mages, and destroying you is a necessity or mercy.

If you've never played Mage, it's best to familiarize yourself with the horror setting and themes of the game, particularly the corruption of power. Doing so will help you better conceptualize the problems with mage immortality.

>>46055189
>The methods for serious life extension require the commission of horrible atrocities or turning yourself into terrible and/or unknowable monsters. These are universally considered "bad things."
Technically you can just prolong your life indefinitely using Time or Life, but these methods of immortality are very dispellable.

The sort that just works on a permanent basis is stuff like body-stealing.

>>46055426
>atrocities to prolong your existence.
That seems... extreme, given that it's possible to feed with minimal harm.

>>46055437
Unfortunately, I can't familiarize myself with the themes of 2e because it isn't out yet; the only liches in the books I have are the Tremere, who are obviously bad due to eating souls, but it doesn't go into detail about any other forms of immortality (except arguably for the Scions of God, who become spirits after death and aren't shown to be Left-Handed anyway). As such, I have no real information on what's bad about immortality other than vague implications.

>>46055494
>(except arguably for the Scions of God, who become spirits after death and aren't shown to be Left-Handed anyway)
Technically those guys would also be liches, since it's still "turning yourself into something fundamentally inhuman in order to attain immortality".

Not every Lich is fundamentally evil.

Of course, considering what spirits do to each other and the Darwinian hellhole that is the Shadow...

>>46055453
>but these methods of immortality are very dispellable.
Unless you get them as attainments via Legacy.

>>46055494

The themes have generally remained consistent between the editions, with 2e just better emphasizing the essentials and improving mechanics.

Spend time reading Dave's 2e spoilers. They're excellent.

>>46055494

No you can't, you always do harm and that's why vampires are always bad and mages are the only force of good in the setting and also the most powerful and best at everything

>>46055426
>The Tremere even have a ghoul equivalent!
Why are the Tremere so cool?

>>46055568
Except that Mages are objectively assholes.

>>46055574
Thy're the maws of the Final Dragon, if you don't think that's cool you have several problems.

>>46055587

Mad vampy fag detected or is it a werewolf? All you minor splats are the same to me

>>46055568
>mages are the only force of good in the setting
Have you missed the half-dozen posts Dave has made recently contrasting Ascension and Awakening re: whether Mages are a good thing?

>>46055598

>dragon anything
>cool

Dragons are shit,

>>46055608
As a different person, no. What are they?

>>46055494
>Vampires
>minimal harm

I'll quote the Obrimos perspective on vampires from the 1e corebook (p.103),

"Vampires: These loathsome creatures are reviled
by every culture that has ever suffered their depredations. They have no legitimate place in the world.
They must be destroyed at every opportunity."

>>46055629
This isn't the specific post I was looking for (it may be on another forum, I'll keep looking), but here's one:

>I thought Mages were what humans are inherently supposed to be.

>DaveB: Good god, no. You're thinking of Ascension, the WoD Mage game. In Awakening, the default state of Humanity, pre-Fall, was what's now called a Sleepwalker. Mages have *always* been freaks and assholes.

http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/44769976/#44780479

>>46055601
No, I'm a Mage fan. Mages are assholes. Dave has said this before. That's kind of the entire point of Mage. Their sanity meter is literally "are you a fucking asshole who thinks he's God?"

>>46055629
If Mages are the only force of Good, we're fucked.

There's nothing *inherently* evil about Mages, and they're more than capable of (as a whole) saving the world. Many of them even try to do this when they become Archmages. But they have all the power, and power tends to corrupt. That's the point of Mage. "Sure, you *could* do all of this safely and at no harm to anyone whatsoever, if you're careful and patient and fully respect the agency of other living beings..."

"But you're not going to do that, are you? No. Because patience and care lead to your plans falling apart because you didn't act fast enough, and other living beings are fucking idiots who don't do what you want them to do."

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>>46055636
>reviled by every culture that has ever suffered their depredations.
Riiiight.

>>46055608
>contrasting Ascension and Awakening mages

To quote Dave,

http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/45921172/#45939096

"The difference from my pov, with a backstage eye on writing guides and what we look for as fitting one Mage or the other...

Ascension sees mages as humanity's rightful state, the hope of humanity, who fall short by arguing with one another about their rival visions for reality and coming to blows.

Awakening sees mages as awful people who get everyone around them killed."

Awakening mages are very powerful, but also usually very arrogant, self-centered, self-righteous and highly dangerous assholes.

>>46055629
Still having trouble finding them, but they basically boil down to "Ascension sees Mages as a wonderful thing; the great glorious next step for Humanity. Everyone becoming a Mage is considered a good thing.

Awakening sees Mages as self-absorbed, dangerous, hubristic assholes who hurt everything around them. In Awakening, everyone being a Mage would be a nightmare."

>>46055725
I think that was the one I was looking for, yeah.

Thanks.

>>46055686
Now, here's why I dislike that concept: it makes all of the traps incredibly obvious. Either you derp into the corruption of power by the choice of the PC, or you avoid it because, duh, everything that offers UNLIMITED POWWWAAAAHHHH is trying to trick you. Also, frankly, the more assholes that are inherently baked into the system, the less I'm going to care about it.

>>46055636
what about the next part where they note that in the book if you look carefully you'll notice it once said "mages" but was scratched out and vampires was written over it

>>46055761

The setting and central themes of Awakening do not change based upon whether you like them or not.

It's possible that canon Mage is just not for you.

>>46055725
Way to use developer fiat to claim that one of the playable orders is wrong and stupid, Dave. That's extremely unclassy.

>>46055761
you seem to be mistaken

the object of role-playing games is to play a role
it is not to play a good guy

>>46055725
>Awakening sees mages as awful people who get everyone around them killed."
>Awakening mages are very powerful, but also usually very arrogant, self-centered, self-righteous and highly dangerous assholes.
This shit right here is why I find the whole idea of "Banishers are just broken Awakenings with Integrity scores with a communicable soul-virus; if they were sane they'd be 100% pro-Mages, you can safely ignore everything they say" or "Banishers are all just Mage-killing automata" actively damaging to the game's themes.

I'm glad that the 2e writeup points out that some Banishers are like that, but these are a minority.

When Mages are seen, from a gameline perspective, as "awful people who get everyone around them killed", the group that sees Mages as fundamentally a Bad Thing that needs to be stopped shouldn't be something you can just dismiss out-of-hand. Having strong philosophical objections to the entire idea of Mages is an entirely valid viewpoint, in a setting like that.

>>46055800
>claim that one of the playable orders is wrong and stupid
none of the orders contradicts any of that

>>46055814
tbf, banishers are trying to kill magic supernal
mages just happen to be the big sources of it

>>46055800
>Way to use developer fiat to claim that one of the playable orders is wrong and stupid, Dave. That's extremely unclassy.
The Silver Ladder thinks most Mages are arrogant, dangerous assholes too. There's a reason they have the whole Lion vs. Stag vs. Stage dichotomy. Trichotomy?

2e is very much built around the idea that every group is right about some things and wrong about some things. This includes the Silver Ladder.

This also includes the Guardians.

This may also include Banishers.

>>46055697
>Twilight

The Twilight franchise probably doesn't exist in the CofD, or if it does, it's merely a weak attempt by the Invictus to alter millennia of humanity's well-deserved disgust of vampire atrocities.

>>46055830
The Silver Ladder absolutely does.

>>46055790
Ascension would be if it weren't for the fact that I really, really hate consensual reality. But I think CoD has major issues with telling people how to play its games, and carrying an air of disdain for those who disagree.

>>46055861
But they also want to Awaken everyone in the world eventually.

>>46055851
Depends on the Banisher.

Banishers are still people, and are capable of forming their own motivations.

>>46055882
>The Silver Ladder absolutely does.
the silver ladder are awful people
they're the equivalent of the people who demand everyone else learn english so real americans don't have to yell at them when they're cleaning their toilets for less than minimum wage

>>46055882
>But they also want to Awaken everyone in the world eventually.
No they don't. Dave has made recent posts to this effect as well.

The Silver Ladder wants to help everyone find the rung on which they can operate the best and do the most good.

According to the Silver Ladder, for the vast majority of people, their designated rung is "Sleepwalker".

Remember that the Silver Ladder fundamentally does not believe that people are equal. That's the big point of disagreement between them and the Free Council.

>>46055919
So this is another thing changed in 2e, and they no longer want to create the all-Awakened future of humanity, Hieraconis?

>>46055942
Hieraconis was never an "all of Humanity is Mages" utopia.

>>46055882

The CofD gamelines (and most TTPRG's) have established settings and themes, with rules and mechanics designed to emphasize them.

You can do anything you want in your own games, and WW explicitly encourages this. There's really no badwrongfun. However, your dislike of any fundamental aspect of the various games, or WW or other players' refusal to change things to suit your particular preferences, is your problem, not OPP's or WW's.

WW doesn't have disdain for your tastes; you simply resent their creative choices.

>>46055882
>But they also want to Awaken everyone in the world eventually.

Nope. They want a ladder (hey, the name is there), with the Awakened on top, and everyone else in fixed positions beneath them. Everyone positioned where they fit the best.

Vampires are at the very bottom. Filthy terata.

>>46056069
>They want a ladder (hey, the name is there), with the Awakened on top, and everyone else in fixed positions beneath them. Everyone positioned where they fit the best.
Yup. You're supposed to want to ascend the ladder until you find where you fit best. No higher, but also no lower.

You know how in businesses, competent people get promoted right past all the jobs where they can stay competent? Good workers ending up as managers because that's the next rung up, even though they have no managerial skills, and now they suck at their job?

The Silver Ladder wants to avoid those situations.

>>46056144

http://theonyxpath.com/my-body-is-a-cage-silver-ladder-mage-the-awakening/

The Silver Ladder are would-be Bodhisattvas, and all too often fall into becoming tyrants. They simultaneously define themselves by inequality – the Order is named after their precept that some humans are more enlightened than others – and devote the majority of their time to helping people find their most comfortable “rung” in that system. They created Mage society and do the most work in maintaining it still, all the while demanding that Wisdom bow to Gnosis. Their intentions are good. They see the potential in every human soul, but hate the world those souls inhabit. They hold that the ideal mage is a wise advisor, teaching by example, and often end up forcing their advice on other mages. They despise any restriction on their own action, spend lifetimes refining Lex Magica, and manipulate Sleepers “for their own good.”

I want to run two parallel Vampire games in a Sabbat vs Camarilla one-shot for a convention. The setting is a modern day Western European city so I was thinking that the plot could be a that there are rumours circulating of a Methuselah slumbering in some deep vault of the city, and each faction has sent some manner of tactical squad to investigate the rumours and acquire the Methuselah, or at least stop it from falling into the enemies' hands.

Does this sound interesting or shit?

>>46055761
Except that you have the chance to make the world a better place. Problem is, you're gonna have to betray your morals and principles to do it.

It's the classic "do you make a deal with a devil to further what you love" trope. But it's not just things like Acamoth offering you unlimited power, it's something you inherently have. But the more you tap into that--like stacking more Reach than you can handle--the more dangerous you become to yourself and the people around you.

You get a ton of power right out of the gate as a Mage. But USING that power leads to a slippery slope of causing more damage. But if you use that power, you can get what you want.

>>46055882
>I think CoD has major issues with telling people how to play its games, and carrying an air of disdain for those who disagree.
They don't, though. They create this game with a specific purpose in mind and then people come complaining "I wish it was like this!"
And it's fine to wish that, but a) the game isn't even doing the thing you think it's doing, and b) the game doesn't inherently have to do what you want it to do.
Also you're wrong, that's not how the Silver Ladder works.

The game doesn't prevent you from being heroic. It encourages it, even. But Mages are not super enlightened good guys. They're people with power. And look at politics: The moment someone gets offered some fat stacks of cash, their position changes. And reality offers Mages fat stacks of cash to encourage them towards the position of "you are a God, do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law".

>>46056221

>it's vampire
>it's oWoD

It's double shit

>>46056237
Happily, my morals and principles are "make the world a better place." Also happily, creating the precedent of abuse of power to accomplish one's whims would not make the world better, so the decision isn't as hard as it seems at first. For instance, Reach seems like a trap in every scenario that isn't life-or-death.

>>46055618
To the Tremere of MtAw the Watchtower they represent is a crystallized Supernal Dragon...I think...not really sure on that point.

>>46055725
>Awakening mages are very powerful, but also usually very arrogant, self-centered, self-righteous and highly dangerous assholes.
But wait, are they horrible people because they're mages, or are they horrible people because they're people (and magic may exacerbate the issue)?

>>46056322
>Happily, my morals and principles are "make the world a better place."
which isn't going to matter when playing a role playing game
>>46056337
>or are they horrible people because they're people (and magic may exacerbate the issue)?
that
but also magic drives mortals insane so it's not a "may" make things worse issue

>>46056337
>are they horrible people because they're people (and magic may exacerbate the issue)?
Mostly this.

There are also mechanics to being a Mage that actively incentivize being a dick. Making a Wisdom degeneration roll gives you an Arcane Beat.

There's also the Reach system: grabbing for more power causes the possibility of Paradox, but if you release the Paradox, you know the primary target of the Paradox *isn't you*.

And considering the alternative is taking bodily damage or Paradox Conditions that you can't get rid of with magic...