Space marine vs Jedi, who would win? Discuss both singular

>>46004226
Space Marine. Jedi have died by droids, storm troopers, bounty hunters, and generally anything else you can think of.

A standard space marine would kill a standard jedi easily.

If it was Yoda vs a Primarch, a primarch would win still.

>>46004244
And Marines have died to Guardsmen and Gretchin.
So, Guardsman > Jedi?

>>46004226
Jedi win singular combat, since on average they're basically all psykers with power swords.

Space Marines win a war because they have actual logistics and dodging bullets is more difficult when the air is full of them.

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Well I'm not very familiar with the sw universe, but I'll go ahead and post my take. On a war you gotta give it to the Space Marines since the jedis already got canon cucked by regular dudes, and 40k ships appear to be on a different level compared to star wars ships, so in any case they could always spam exterminatus.

In a duel it really depends on the specifics. If I suppose the Space Marine is not a librarian, then it ends up depending only on the jedi and his skills to dodge and evade the marine, because the moment he gets a hold of the jedi it's pretty much over. Seeing how the jedi have the force and for all I know the power armor would be like butter to the light saber, I think the jedi would more often than not take this one home.
Hope this thread takes off op

You can't deflect a bolter round with a lightsaber though, if you try you'll get a face full of shrapnel.

Space Marine, both in single combat and in a war.

Space Marines have insane reflexes which are of similarity to a jedi, power weapons which function the same, and are used to fighting psychic races and facing those with the powers the force would provide. Their primary armament, the bolter, also shoots an explosive shot that would be impossible to properly block without the force of the blast and shrapnel wasting the barely armored jedi. There is also on average a few hundred years of combat experience with the space marine over most Jedi.

And this is just a basic trooper, a captain, chaplain, terminator, or any with a Storm Shield, Iron Halo, or powerfield would be able to resist a number of saber strikes.

As for war, once it becomes a war situation the Jedi are fucked, at best they are equal in numbers but are all trained the same and for the same purpose, marines have full armories with tactical flexibility, powerful vehicles, and even teleportation technology to spare. But the biggest nail in the coffin are the Librarius, full of immensly power psychers trained to simply fuck up the powers of other psychers. Jedi would have an insane time trying to face Psychic Hoods, which deny them their force powers or at least force them into mental confrontation against the strong wills of Space Marine Librarians, who live their entire lives in mental battle. Again, experience would trump the Jedi.

Jedi are in a sense just Eldar Aspect warriors and warlocks, just with alot less precog and incredibly less advanced technology, something that Space Marines have faced before.

In 40k, Space Marines train to fight enemies like the Jedi and are ready for them. In Star Wars, enemies like Space Marines are something the Jedi has not prepared for in the slightest. They still use the equivalent of lasguns and clonetroopers.

The only advantage for the republic is FTL travel, but even then its debatable they could stop the battlebarges and survive Terminator Boarding actions.

>>46004331
What about a battle in space?

>>46004331
If the marines are so superior to eldar why are the eldar not wiped out yet?

>>46004318
this is pretty important^^

In legends I remember explosives and projectile weapons were the bane of jedi because they can't deflect them back.

Bounty Hunters used to use shotguns to fuck their shit too. They can block one or two projectiles but a literal cloud of metal... not so much.

They only downside is the rock, paper scissors situation with slug throwers, blasters and light sabers and (since jedi are so much more rare) people didn't often carry the specific tools to fuck them.

>>46004331
You can't teleport through shields tho

>>46004331
I think Eldar Warlocks are a good analogy in this case, and in that case, it's probably going to be a fairly even matchup, assuming it's a typical jedi-knight against an average tactical or assault marine.

The Jedi has some slight advantages with precognition, but is generally going to have to use the Force to try and create an opening to close in and use their lightsaber.

Meanwhile, the Marine has to land a shot with their bolter, or possibly dodge the lightsaber well enough to get a chainsword in their chest.

Depending on the environment and what the Jedi tries, I'd say it's a real cointoss.

Once you start adding in higher-ranking marines though, things will go poorly. A power sword means that the Jedi isn't as garunteed a melee victory, and has to close the distance under fire and then win a difficult swordfight. It only gets worse from there.

Warfare is no question. Land or Space, marines steamroll

>>46004368
There are some cases where Jedi can dodge or avoid bullets, and using the force to fling clouds of debris could further let them avoid shots.

The Bolter is a near guaranteed kill if it hits, but it's not unavoidable.

>>46004273
those are extraordinary occurrences in the fluff, even great jedi have died by bounty hunters and droids, probably gungans too

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I think the real question here is how much time until the librarians capture a jedi master and force him to train the chapter as jedi and how improved would the jedi be if they were fanatical 8 feet warriors in terminator armor

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>>46004368
>>46004318

these anons are correct. jedi are hilariously weak on paper and in lore always need to use plot armor

maybe if it was something like pic related and the armor actually did something for protection and was power armor like the sisters of battle or something it would be a good fight

>>46004365
Unlike Jedi, Eldar have technology far surpassing the Imperium and actually use guns, very good molecule slicing shurican guns.

Unlike the Jedi their abilities of Precog allow them to strike at their most advantaged points, and they are smart enough and have the tech to to be able to run away when the fighting gets entrenched, something Jedi would struggle with.

Eldar have the technology and psychic potential to give the Space Marines a worthy fight. Remove all their technology and guns, force them to only wear cloth or simple carapace armor, remove the insanely easy possibility of retreat and give them a single power weapon and its an entirely different story.

>>46004354
The 40k Universe has way more destructive alien fleets the Space Marines face then anything the Republic could throw at them. The republic relies on broadsides and barrages, something the Battle Barges were designed to deal with by taking the punishment and dishing it back. Laser cannons are strong, but the explosive ammunition of the Imperium would pulverize the smaller republic ships.

Once the shields are broken on the republic shits Terminators can teleport in or have a boarding pod strike and then the ship is simply fucked.

Space Marines are designed to commit these kinds of actions in space combat. Again, experience.

>>46004463
you mean ships right?

>>46004477
Yeah

>>46004318

How well would a lightsaber do against power armor to? Cant they be blocked by normal armor in the SW verse? I imagine a jedi trying to pierce power armor would be like that scene in tPM where Qui Gon is trying to cut through the blast door.

Even with force powers the standard gear of a Space Marine gives them a huge advantage in this fight. 1v1 the SM wins.

In a war however it could depend on other factors. Assuming its an equal number of Jedi vs Space Marines, the Jedi have a huge advantage due to their FTL.

>>46004485
It would be funnier if you didn't

>>46004488
But the Jedi alone dont have access to those big ships alone as an order, they fight along side the republican army and then have those ships. At that point its not Space Marines vs Jedi, but Space Marines vs Jedi and the entire Republic army. I still think the Space Marines would have it, but thats a different fight alltogether

Space Marines inherently have those resources available to them, they dont need to reach out to anyone else in this case.

One fights regular people and an occasional strong psychic user.

The other fights an assortment of weird stuff and demons.

There's also the fact that Space Marines can survive a lot of wounds that would and could kill a normal man.
Lost an arm from a lightsaber slash? That sucks for the marine, but a marine would still keep going, especially with the wound being cauterized instantly. Jedi, as the films have shown before, are usually down for the count once limbs start getting removed, and nearly the entirety of the Space Marines' arsenal can and will delimb their targets.

Alright, let's run down this.

Padawan < Scout ~=~ Jedi Knight < Space Marine < Jedi Master < Space Marine Librarian <<<<<<<<<<<<<(exponentially) Primarch

Reasoning?

1) Jedi are frankly pretty shit at using their powers. But they have telekinesis! But they're like psykers! You say. But they aren't. Especially in the new canon, Jedi fucking rarely use their powers to their full logical extent, and even in the EU never use them lethally. Most of the time it's just used to lift and throw shit, never immobilize, never rent organs. Hell, in the old EU, the Sith have in a grand total of around THREE FUCKING TIMES actually had the idea to stop hearts with the force. Most force sensitives just seem to be general fuckwits either too scared to too weak to maximize their powers for good or ill. 99% they're just using precognition with the force.

2) Jedi precognition is good, but characters with incredible reflexes can overcome it. A Space Marine thinks and moves so fast that a Jedi for the most part is facing a peer or even superior opponent.

3) Jedi suck balls at intercepting automatic fire, let alone explosive rounds that will detonate into liquefied burning shrapnel which is what will happen if a Lightsaber clashes with a bolt.

4) Lightsabers will not instantly cut through power armor. They certainly will be able to penetrate it, but in the movies and EU we've seen a shitload of materials stop or slow lightsaber cutting ability via heat resistance... which is the name and game of ceramite, the main component of power armor.

However against the Space Marine's favor-

1) Bringing a chainsword is a bad fucking idea in a duel with a Jedi and he's better off just blasting away with his boltgun. Chainswords however get melted or cut to pieces by power weapons and things comparable to them. Use a chainsword to fight a lightsaber and you'll soon have a broom handle.

2) Jedi Masters will absolutely BTFO a Space Marine like Mace Windu or Yoda.

>>46004368

See, when has that actually happened in legends?

People talk about that but I can't remember a single actual book where it happened and I read a damn lot of legends.

>>46004365
Eldar can hide in the webway. They're literally untouchable unless you happen to stumble across a Craftworld by sheer accident.

However, Craftworlds fair very poorly against Space Marines, and single chapters can completely fuck them up like the Invaders.

>>46004584

>2) Jedi precognition is good, but characters with incredible reflexes can overcome it. A Space Marine thinks and moves so fast that a Jedi for the most part is facing a peer or even superior opponent.

That's a hell of an assumption. Marines are fast but I wouldn't call them 'Faster than a precognitive guy' fast.

>>46004584
It's a shame that one of the only times Jedi have ever actually looked and acted like massive bad asses was in the 2D animated TV series.
Too bad it isn't canon.

>Space Marine fanwanking
How did I know /tg/ would immediately have a preference?

Though the large-scale scenario is admittedly a win for the Marines, no contest: Jedi already deal with large-scale warfare poorly, and against an opposing force with logistics taken as retardedly extreme as the Space Marines do, there's just no doubt about the outcome.

One-on-one's a bit of a coinflip. Let's assume that lightsabers can cut through a space marines armor like it cuts through everything else, because, well, that's what lightsabers do. It might not be hard science, but taking how lightsabers are consistently shown to be able to cut through anything short of blast door-grade plating, I'm going to assume that they will still work the same here as they do every other time we see them.
This means that both of them have one-hit-kill potential with their weapons of choice, but they seem to cancel each other out. The Marine can make himself extremely dangerous to approach by throwing out insane amounts of projectiles, but the jedi spend pretty much every fight they're in dodging anyway. So they both need to get closer; the jedi to get his blade in range, the Marine to shorten the time the jedi has to react and thus make continued dodging more difficult.

...Or the jedi just uses the force to throw the marine off a cliff.

I sort of lost my train of thought, but my point is that on an individual basis, I think the jedi Force powers are enough to give them an edge; not enough to dominate, but enough that on average, they come out on top. At least until his buddies show up.

Assuming after the initial encounter, both sides learn something about the enemy. Jedis figure out that it's a terrible idea trying to block bolter rounds with their lightsabers and the marines learn that those wacky jedis move around really fast and their glow sticks are actually quite deadly.

What tactical adaptations can the two sides undertake to better face the opposition on their next encounter?

>>46004562
The only way a Jedi i going to win is by decapitation or by cutting the marine in half. Stabbed through the chest with a lightsaber? no big deal. Stabbed in the chest 3 times with a lightsaber and missing an arm? still able to fight. A Marine needs to be hit multiple times to go down, where as one hit on the Jedi i going to put it out of the fight for good.

>>46004625

Jedi bring clone troopers next time with heavy weapons to provide covering fire and equalize the ranged situation.

>>46004612
Marines move fast enough to slap supersonic rounds out of the air and move fast enough to drive people literally insane. Considering Jedi have trouble keeping up with Grievous despite him being a bumblign retard in the nucanon, Jedi definitely have a lot of shit to be afraid of.

>>46004641

>Marines move fast enough to slap supersonic rounds out of the air and move fast enough to drive people literally insane.

What?

>>46004395
>even great jedi have died by bounty hunters and droids
These weren't extraordinary circumstances?

Also, probably not canon anymore.

>>46004650

Most of the vs droids were 'Bad blocks after significant fatigue and an endless enemy'.

Something more comparable with dealing with the Imperial guard than the Space Marines.

>>46004640
It has to be really heavy weapon though, because your average star wars blaster can't even put a man down after one hit.

I would think space marines would start brining in melta guns, which makes close combat against them very risky.

>>46004660
It doesn't matter though. You block one bolter round and you're dead already. You have to dodge them and as fast as a jedi is its hard to dodge a war of lead against automatic fire.

>>46004666

Well, the clones had man-portable anti-tank and about the only people who've ever taken a blaster and kept going are protagonists (Heck, even then Leia was out of the fight with a single glancing hit)

Melta guns are a pretty terrible choice vs Jedi. They are short range, single shot and horrifically deadly but Jedi are not really tougher than other people, just dodgier.

You'd want a Storm Bolter for the rate of fire/range or a Heavy Bolter.

>>46004618
>Let's assume that lightsabers can cut through a space marines armor like it cuts through everything else, because, well, that's what lightsabers do. It might not be hard science, but taking how lightsabers are consistently shown to be able to cut through anything short of blast door-grade plating, I'm going to assume that they will still work the same here as they do every other time we see them.
Fucking kek, they don't. Of the things we've seen lightsabers fail to cut through in the movies-

>Darth Vader's pauldrons
>The railing on Bespin
>Blast Doors
>IG-100 staffs
And I'm pretty sure there's more that lightsabers have bounced off in the movies, but I'd have to check. So no, the lightsaber is definitely not a one-hit-one-kill weapon, especially when power armor is heat resistant in the first place like materials used in blast doors.

>but the jedi spend pretty much every fight they're in dodging anyway.

Jedi are unlikely to even be capable of dodging bolters. The rounds they primarily deflect in the movies and tv show are subsonic blaster shots. Bolters fire supersonic or even hypersonic munitions depending on the ammunition loaded. Plus all a marine has to do is fire two shots in two different spots and the Jedi just falls over dead. Plus marines won't be missing most, if any of their shots considering Astartes are able to track agile targets like genestealers. Missing a shot is considered an embarrassment for Brothers (Cadians too, who have something like a 90% hit ratio against even the supernatural shit).

>...Or the jedi just uses the force to throw the marine off a cliff.

Not going to do much as we know space marines can survive kilometer falls with non-lethal wounds. It'll rattle but not kill.

>>46004650
During the KotOR era wasn't bounty hunting jedi a lucrative business option? And weren't flamethrowers and shotguns the more popular weapons to use?
I always assumed the Fetts used the flamethrowers almost exclusively for jedi hunting desu senpai

>>46004618

>How did I know /tg/ would immediately have a preference?
Its not a preference, its just a terribly poor matchup for the Jedi to face a space marine. They arent close to equals and thus the answer is much more obvious.

>Let's assume that lightsabers can cut through a space marines armor like it cuts through everything else, because, well, that's what lightsabers do

No, there are plenty of cases where certain metals are able to hold a resistance.

>but the jedi spend pretty much every fight they're in dodging anyway

Again, not at all, Jedi survive firefights mostly by blocking shots sent at them, a tactic that wont work against a bolter. And against a being with superhuman speed and reflex, wielding a long range gun that couldnt be blocked, the Jedi would be fucked on approach. it also doesnt help that Jedi limit themselves ONLY to close range combat. They quite literally brought a sword to a gun fight. Its not a problem when you can block the lasers with the sword, because its basically a shield as well which allows approach, but when faced with a bolter they have no real answers and the saber becomes useless unless he somehow can get into range with a 200+ year vet of endless war, who would know his advantage and use it.

>>46004649
>“Transhuman dread. Aximand had heard iterators talk of the condition. He’d heard descriptions of it from regular Army officers too. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing: taller and broader than a man could ever be, armoured like a demigod. The singularity of purpose was self-evident. An Adeptus Astartes was designed to fight and kill anything that didn’t annihilate it first. If you saw an Adeptus Astartes, you knew you were in trouble. The appearance alone cowed you with fear.

But to see one move. Apparently that was the real thing. Nothing human-shaped should be so fast, so lithe, so powerful, especially not anything in excess of two metres tall and carrying more armour than four normal men could lift. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing, but the moving fact of one was quite another. The psychologists called it transhuman dread. It froze a man, stuck him to the ground, caused his mind to lock up, made him lose control of bladder and bowel. Something huge and warlike gave pause: something huge and warlike and moving with the speed of a striking snake, that was when you knew that gods moved amongst men, and that there existed a scale of strength and speed beyond anything mortal, and that you were about to die and, if you were really lucking, there might be just enough time to piss yourself first.” / Age of Darkness, p.163 - **

>>46004687
Blasters won't penetrate power armor. They're only roughly comparable to lasguns on the normal settings, and clones are too retarded to use the more powerful settings on... anything actually. Star Wars really suffers from characters being fucking stupid even by 40k standards.

>>46004677
>You block one bolter round and you're dead already.
We don't know that.
Bolters don't exist in the first place in the universe, and in the movies they never deflect projectile weapons.
The EU is a) horseshit, b) not canon anymore and, most importantly, c) self-contradictory on the matter.

>You have to dodge them and as fast as a jedi is its hard to dodge a war of lead against automatic fire.
The rate of fire for bolters is all over the fucking place and the Jedi isn't dodging the shells anyway, he's dodging away from where the Marine is going to shoot.
That also means a Jedi would probably have a harder time against a mind-shielded marine, though.

>>46004677

Well, that's assuming that they detonate if they hit the saber rather than evaporate. Lightsabers tend to make things they hit stop existing rather than explode.

We don't really have a source in new or old canon for what happens if a lightsaber hits a solid projectile but Solid Projectiles were never really concidered a good weapon for the droids despite them knowing they'd be fighting jedi.

>>46004706
And the marine wank has reached a whole new level of retardation.

>>46004709
And Marines both have fast enough reactions and are good enough shots that the Jedi can't dodge. Marines already fight and drop Genestealers and Eldar, shit that are way faster than the average Jedi. Not to mention that all Space Marines undergo hypno indoctrination.

>>46004226
HK 47 > Jedi
stay mad, meatbags

>>46004640
This is Jedi vs Space Marines, not Space Marines vs Jedi and the entire republic forces. In that case the Space Marines would be allowed to bring allies of their own and the jedi are even more fucked

Not having long range guns is an inherent disadvantage for the Jedi, not something you can handwave by saying "oh we will give them allies then".

>>46004677
They can hold and reflect pure energy/light projectile--they just jam the round in the bolter and the gun itself explodes.
>Jedi 1
>Rapid-Fire Contract-Explosives 0

couldn't a jedi just block the bolter shell inside the barrel wrecking the entire weapon with relatively minimal effort?

>>46004716
>Well, that's assuming that they detonate if they hit the saber rather than evaporate. Lightsabers tend to make things they hit stop existing rather than explode.
Nigga do you even physics? It doesn't matter if they stop existing. The vaporized gases from those rounds would still be moving at supersonic speeds after being melted instantly, and the Jedi would be burned either to death, or suffer such severe third degree burns to the face that they could no longer fight.

"Ha ha I vaporized the round with my plasma sword" doesn't mean shit considering that matter doesn't suddenly cease to exist or lose momentum.

>>46004739
Cite every time that has happened in the movies, clone wars TV show, rebels TV show, and other officially approved material in the nucanon that isn't from a stupidly powerful beast like Vader.

Owait, you can't, because Jedi don't do that.

>>46004739
>>46004743
Actually an interesting tactic but
>Implying a Jedi would think to do that

As its been mentioned in this thread, Jedi are notoriously stupid with their force powers. Maybe Luke or Yoda would, but not your average Knight.

>>46004706

That's not 'Move fast enough to drive a man mad'. That's just simple 'You know you are going to die'. It's not like they walked out of the Cthulhu mythos.

These are also the guys who had their melee specialists lose to an unarmed SOB in hand to hand (Daemonfuge)

>>46004726
Your just butthurt at this point, this is simply a part of the lore.

Stay mad bro,

>>46004745

I don't think either 40k OR Star Wars engage in physics at all.

Or did you miss the guys fighting about a foot away from magma and being completely unharmed?

>>46004751
talking about Vader
would force choke work on a space marine? After all he did manage to project that to a person on another ship, space marine armor is peanuts compared to that

>>46004706

Transhuman dread, when the dread has uploaded itself into a cybernetic body and taken my sides to orbit with how cheesy it tries to be.

>>46004767

So is marines dying like bitches to exploding lasgun magazines or being slower on the draw than guardsmen.

40k is not exactly consistent.

>>46004778
also its bad writing given its only mentioned in a description they're super fast and agile, then never used for anything related to the story

it comes down to
>can lightsabers cut mehreen armor

Jedi are like Guard regiments: it depends on who is writing the book.

>>46004771
Oh anon, have you seen the new canon Vader comics?

I'm a 40k fan, but Vader would BTFO anybody short of the real dangerous motherfuckers like Mephiston.

>>46004797
>can lightsabers cut mehreen armor
Well seeing as how Darth Vaders armor can deflect lightsabers, Im going to say no to that, at least not easily

>>46004797

So are Marines.

If it's Daemonfuge, a single SOB will beat the shit out of a squad of Black Templars or if it's a Marine book will slaughter eldar and orks like they don't exist. If it's a Guard book they'll usually be big and powerful but unweildy compared to the protagonists.

Neither really have a consistent enough depiction to make real assumptions as it comes down to 'Who is writing the book?' as you said.

>>46004804
on the other hand star wars is a setting where lightsabers are known for a long time so countermeasures specifically to it being developed is logical
40k, not so much

reading all this it seems to be more fair to compare a mehreen scout or perhaps the best guardsman against a jedi.
this isn't fair with a real spess mehreen vs jedi.

>>46004790
Neither is Starwars, jedi get ganked by weak ass shit all the time as well. Hell they literally just all died to getting shot in the back in order 66.

The best average for jedi and Space Marines, taking them in their prime are what matters, none of this is even exaggerating, its just what Space Marines entail.

>>46004802
wait if vader is suddenly that strong then how exactly do they justify the fight scene in a new hope?
is it official he was just humoring obi-wan?

>>46004815
40k has fucking power swords, which are like the old star wars force swords, only far more lethal. Power Swords just NOPE the molecular structure of whatever the fuck they're swung at and cut through the material like a fluid.

Plus Darth Vader's armor is made out of durasteel IIRC, which is just stronger than titanium according to the new visuals book.

>>46004824

>The best average
>Taking the best depiction

That's not how averages work.

>>46004828
Most likely? They were equals in power or close to it, but obviously for the special affects of the time they couldn't have Vader killing entire armies of men (which is a thing he does now, he can even pull fighters and transports out of the sky by force crushing their engines mid-flight).

>>46004802
Yeah, but at this point its literally the strongest jedi/sith, vs a normal marine, no pair him against a real Space Marine Hero and the fight becomes much harder for him.

Vader is strong, but in the 40k universe their are psychic beings way stronger then him, and Libarians are trained to deal with them.

We haven't even touched the Grey Knights yet, which are space marines as well. That would be an entirely different ballgame altogether.

Judging by X-wing sales, the Jedi is kicking the shit out of the space marines.

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>>46004802
It seems like if any Jedi or Sith used their force powers intelligently they could handle an average Tactical Marine.

Unfortunately that is rarely the case

>>46004745
thank you, you beat me to shouting LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS ANNON.

also inb4 the marine aims at the floor NEAR the jedi, its what i would do when i had an exploding weapon and had to kill a dodgemonkey...

>>46004853
Vader literally fought an entire army of rebels, including tanks and fighters.

They all died. Most in the first minute.

>>46004226
Space marine.
A Jedi is willing to retreat, a space marine is not.

Perhaps out of wisdom or some other philosophical disposition, the movies and lore indicate that Jedi are generally willing to give ground in a bad situation.
Space Marines don't. They are the emperors sword, they would rather fight to the death than betray their purpose.

Space marines win on conviction, they're willing to sacrifice more for victory, they'd go to greater lengths and be willing to suffer more for it.
They'd want it more.

>>46004842

That and Vader (As shown in the Rebels cartoon) is a master of careful, precise strokes. He's not bouncing about like crazy but he hits the perfect weak spot in your defenses whenever it's worst for you.

So the fact that Obi was matching him blow for blow speaks a lot for a lack of weak points for Vader to capitalize on but also isn't that showy.

>>46004858
This is far too true.

>>46004857
Pretty much. Just that it seems in star wars the prerequisite for being force sensitive is also being mentally retarded.

...Hang on, this might actually explain a lot of shit.

>>46004858

Point at the place where Star Wars or 40k ever use the laws of Thermodynamics as we know them. They literally had a fight in the middle of a magma ocean and no one was hurt until they TOUCHED the magma. That's a pretty clear indicator that the Laws of Thermodynamics are not working right.

>>46004771
But space marine biology would allow the space marine to just raise up his gun and shoot the fucker if he started force choking him.

Also, not all jedi are vaders. But all space marines are space marines.

>>46004863
Dude, there are Alpha level Psychers that can level cities with their maddened crying in 40k, Space marines can kill these.

One vader vs a Librarian, branding a Psychic Hood would end vader right there.

Hell a Grey Knight Brother Captain would fuck him up so hard considering every aspect on his armor is a giant "F-U" to all of Vader's force powers. And we arent even at the highest levels of Space Marine power level.

>>46004823
Pretty much all guardsmen would get fucked, except the shotgun ones who would have a chance.

>>46004823

Eh, it's a lot of space marine wank mostly.

I feel like in a full-scale war situation, the Jedi would lose to the Space Marines just due to the Marines having more numbers than the Jedi. The only real advantage Jedi have going for them is FTL drive, so unless they develop a lot of hit-and-run tactics combined with FTL-propelled nukes (which they probably wouldn't do, as we know the SW universe is probably even dumber than 40k-verse) they'd lose any army-sized confrontation.

In a one-on-one fight, it will depend upon how smart the Jedi is and how strong in the Force vs. any generic Space Marine. If it's some dumbass Jedi or a Padawan, they're dead. If you get someone who is trained in the Force, has a shit ton of combat experience, or is a Jedi Master, then I'd give the edge to the Jedi, but only just.

The biggest issue if someone with skills/experience like Obi-Wan (prior to episode 4) has in meeting a generic Space Marine is they'll probably try to deflect/melt the Bolter shot, and unless they realize how bad of an idea that is (probably via Force precognition) they'll try to deflect the bolter shot, it explodes, and they get seriously wounded from the shrapnel and concussive blast, if not die outright from it.

Otherwise, the Jedi probably just dodges a lot of the shots, looks for a way to disarm the Marine from his Bolter (probably a Force Pull when the marine goes to reload the weapon) and begin hacking away at the Marine's heat-resistant armor and cutting through the powersword when the Marine switches to it.

Basically, the Jedi has to:

1. Not be an idiot
2. Strong enough in the Force to actually use it to it's full potential
3. Have enough stamina and fortitude to dodge long enough for his window to strike

So basically, unless it's a named, important Jedi (Luke, Obi-Wan, Vader, Yoda, etc.) they'll probably lose in the 1v1 as well.

And I generally hate 40k lore. It's just that in this case, there's very few options for the Jedi to win.

>>46004226
How's space marine armour vs a frag grenade?
How are Jedi vs frag grenades?

If a Jedi got to melee range, what's stopping the marine from popping a frag mid combat?

>>46004891
starwars ep 3 the obiwan vs anakin fight right?
if i remember correctly anakin burned near the lava as soon as they went off the hovering tech-walkways which were definitly projecting some kind of "dont melt the enquipment" field. might have theoritically been some form of heat deflection to the side keeping the walkways, and thus jedi, safe and uncooked.

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Before we make up our minds, you guys need to hear about these totally true fact about Darth Vader's suit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVzc20Bm8Xo

>>46004932
Space Marine armor laughs off frag grenades unless they're shit like armor/tank piercing krak grenades.

>“They laughed as they worked, a drywicked laughter that was frightening in its intensity. From behind the circular saws of an industrial rockcutter, a hooded man lobbed a rock at Sica. He heard a whistling sound and he turned the slab of his shoulder pad towards the missile. There was a flash of light. Even with his eyes closed, Sica’s vision strobed red and bright yellow. It had been a grenade. The explosion pushed Sica slightly and made him grunt with annoyance at his own carelessness. He shot the man off the industrial saw, quickly, as if ashamed.” / Blood Gorgons, p.63 - **

>>46004938

They also fought on a rock like 3ft from the magma

>>46004917
>space marine wank
>Actual Space Marine lore
>"Anything I dont like is marine wank"

Seriously, if you have a real argument for why a Jedi could beat a Space Marine on average then say it, at this point your just pouting.

>>46004751
Kylo Ren does it in VII, and he's a little bitch boy.

>>46004948

Well unless it's a guard book. Then they work pretty well.

Like how that dread died to poisoned flettche.

>>46004961
i dont remember him doing that, he did stop the big blue lazor thing, but he did no have someones gun explode in somoenes hand?

>>46004956

Yet you are are also ignoring any 40k fluff on marines but the most extreme ones. Like the daemonfuge example.

>>46004226
Genetic master race religious zealot vs Geneticly engineered religious zealot.
No matter who wins, /tg/ will fap hard to Ubermensch maniacs.

>>46004978
>caring about hopelessly outdated comics from the 00's.

>>46004978
Anon if I really wanted to pull out extreme quotes, I'd pull out the ones where space marines punch through tanks and run at supersonic speeds.

>>46004905
assuming that anti-psyker stuff actually works against the force

which is not guaranteed

>>46004969
Since they can stop projectiles with the force its a safe assumption that if they were fast enough they could jam a weapon. Since a bolter is automatic and fires explosive ammo, jamming it would likely cause the weapon to explode.

Of course they still have to get through the power armor and face the marine in melee, but a smart enough Jedi does have a way to remove their range advantage.

>>46004985

It's no less Canon.

>>46004969
Oh, I was referring to the lazer thing.

Jamming a gun is well within the realm of what jedi are established to be capable of, though. The fact that Kylo Ren can freeze blaster fire is notable because that should be so much more difficult than just jamming a gun barrel.

>>46005015
40K works on a basis of New > Old.

>>46005019

Oh? Where has it been said that SOB can't beat marines in melee since then?

>>46005019

Where was that rule laid out?

Space Marine, assuming an average jedi (so no jedi master crazy shit) and an average marine (with a little under a century of service, no first company veterans or terminators). The Space Marine has a few more things going for them. The biggest is that their weapons are solid projectiles, which makes deflecting them a non option for Jedi and much more lethal. a Jedi who manages to get into close combat will have an upper hand due to precognition reaction time, but Space marine power armor is made from Ceramite which conducts almost no heat and is very resistant to energy attacks, leaving only a few viable places to strike, few of which are immediately lethal to a space marine.

Gotta give it to the space marine here

>>46004709
>and in the movies they never deflect projectile weapons.

Because they'd die, moron.

>>46005016
ah, jeah physically its totally possible. hell, id totally give it to sith lords in doing that (kylo being evil, id grant it to his repetoire)

one issue:
not really a Jedi now, is he?

in thise case sith 1-0 jedi.

Seriously, does anyone have an actual quote from the EU about solid projectile weapons being impossible to deflect? It keeps being said like it's Canon without any backup.

Do you guys fail to realize the average marine is a powerhouse but the average Jedi during the Clone Wars is a diplomatic faggot with no fighting skills compared to actual warrior type Jedi Knights?

The great Jedi fighters we're all familiar with are literally the best fighters in the Jedi Order. The things that a Skywalker or Yoda or Windu do to regular opponents is the stuff the WORST space marine does.

If the Jedi is dumb and just tries to run up and use its lightsaber, the only tactic most Jedi use, they will be wrecked by the marine. If they can even get to melee range (a big if) the Jedi has a precog advantage, but a lightsaber will be nigh useless against power armor. The marine really only needs to score one hit.

If its a rare intelligent Jedi, who is smart and creative with their force abilities, they stand a greater chance. Projectiles can be blocked with the force, the marine could be potentially disarmed, and they really have a ton of options for what they can do with telekinesis. Potential for mind-fuckery too. There is a question of how well would an average marines mental fortitude and faith in the Emperor would protect them against force mind tricks. Still even with all that it would not be an easy fight.

All in all depends more on the Jedi then the Marine.

>>46005181
@mind fuckery: A"n open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded"
heh, love that quote.

like hell mindtricks gonna work unless your bloody yoda tier.

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>>46005099
I love when the EU trys to justify stupid shit in the prequels. Oh George

>>46005200
Yeah I figured as much. Are the Jedi capable of more mind-fuckery then just using mental suggestion on stupid people though? Can they make illusions or anything?

Wouldn't the average marine not be a tactical? That's the LAST rank before veterans. Before that are scouts, assault and devestators. With losses in each of those, tacticals are not likely the average.

>>46005200

I dunno, it's not like they are SOB. Most marines lack Adamantium Will.

>>46005231
they also make up the majority of active marines, which would make them the average.

>>46005221

Jedi are even weaker in the original trilogy. But I think that's mostly due to the technology/action in films back then being more primitive.

>>46005252

I guess it depends where we hold it. Currently active or All Marines.

>>46005262

Clearly we should pick Currently Active Jedi during the original trilogy.

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>>46005262

>>46004383

Very much this.

Remember also that psi in 40k is simply far more powerful overall than it is in Star Wars. Yoda and the Emperor were middling psykers at best by 40k standards; there are dozens of psykers, perhaps hundreds of that power level or greater. It's just that in the SWU they have the monopoly because they're at the top end.

Jedi = Warlock is pretty much perfect.

I think vs a Librarian, Sanctioned Psyker, or Farseer, most Jedi would be toast. Even the Emperor or Yoda would likely be defeated. And that's before we get to named luminaries of 40k.

OTOH, Star Wars weapons and hyperdrive suggest that the Emperor's Navy would totally wreck the various fleets of 40k. Again, it falls through from the setting assumptions.

No knock on Jedi. How powerful psi is in a setting is a world-building decision. IMO Star Wars is the better setting.

>>46005262
Well do correct me if I'm wrong, but dont devastators and assault marines generally make up one company each, with the rest (excepting 1st and 10th) generally being made up mostly of Tacticals?
Which would make them the vast majority of marine forces

>>46005258
Thing is, in the OS outside of Luke fighting some of Jabbas guards, all the Jedi fights are between 2 Jedi. Yeah it doesn't look that impressive, but we are never really given power levels and its left in our heads as to how well these mythic warriors would fare on the battlefield.

Then the Prequels shit the bed with this and makes the Jedi tactical retards and total pansys.

>>46004618
>...Or the jedi just uses the force to throw the marine off a cliff.

You vastly underestimate the weight of an armoured marine. The average Jedi Knight would struggle to lift a marine off the ground and the marine would be plenty happy to keep shooting while that happens.

>>46005335

Luke lifted a starfighter before his training was complete.

>>46005354
And he was the literal chosen one.
Could we not confuse the most powerful jedi masters in existence with the average joe?

>>46004226
>Space marine vs Jedi, who would win?

>Discuss both singular combat

That would strongly be a matter of which SM and Jedi, and are they knowing what they will walk into. To even it out to the most on both sides lets say it is a tactical marine and a Jedi knight. For the Jedi we still have to ask more questions, because the quality of combat training varied over time. Lets say that it is a Jedi Knight from the start of the clone wars for three reasons. First it will be as close to normal that you will get. Second there is good examples to draw from. Third if we look at later during the clones all the less skilled Jedi have died. Those that live have learned from a lot of fighting.

If it is a death match with no forewarning I would give it to the Jedi the strong majority of the time. If we give the tactical marine a power sword it evens out a lot, but the Jedi still has the edge. If we give forewarning to both sides it changes a lot. The Jedi will try to plan a ambush in a place that has 'back ground' nosie to the auto-sense of the marine's power armor. The marine will switch his combat load of ammo to metal storm rounds ( think air burst frag grenades, they use them all the time against highly agile opponents) and if they can a hand held Auspex and a bolt pistol. The Auspex unit is stronger then their suit's auto senses. If the marine go the kit he wanted he would have the edge against a typical Jedi.

> war between the two.

Just the Jedi order and all the space marines? The Jedi are fucked. Jedi order plus the republic against all the space marines? Strong edge goes to the Jedi. Cutting to the chase of how it would go down, republic against the IoM? i would say the republic. Their commutations and FTL is just to much better. A short trip in the warp on a well know route is about 8 to 12 days, half that with a good navigator. That same trip is 30 mins to two hours in a X wing. Also real time space internet.

>>46004488
Probably fairly well. Light Sabres are condensed and stable plasma, and the real threat here is not space marines but the mechanicus seeing one of these swords.

It's effectively a power word, but the mundane materials in starwars to protect against a light saber are very rare. Vibro swords, mandalorian armour, special force forged blades, etc.

Their is a plasma sword in... The inquisitors handbook of dark heresy? Basically a ghetto light saber.

If it came down to final destination I'd probably give it to the space marine, but if there is cover and so forth, probably the Jedi.

Moving up the ranks though, padawan vs scout, jedi vs tactical marine, master vs librarian, and grandmaster vs chapter master after tactical marine it gets pretty unfavorable for the Jedi because now the marines have space magic.

Oh, for comparison I am using kotor Jedi. So enhanced speed and agility, life drain, heal, force lightning, etc.

Really, as soon as a gravity gun wielding tech marine gets mixed in that Jedi is super fucked. I see them as harlequin style fighters. Very leapy. Remove that, and they have no armour. Very dead.

>>46005407

But gravity weapons can't hurt people with no armour. They are specialist anti armour.

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Finally, an excuse to post this. This should settle the naval combat aspect of the debate.

The SPESS MARINES win.
Jedi Knight against a Tactical Marine
Knight has 20+ years of experience. Tac Marine has 150+.
Knight is physically human/whatever a product of evolution. The Tac Marine is a biological war engine, made to survive insane conditions and injuries.

Lightsabers.
They're really cool ay? Made of plasma though. You know what else use plasma? Lasguns (by deduction rather than lore but still). Laser directed plasma. A lightsaber if swung would bounce off Marine armour. Yes it could damage it, especially in the joints and such, IF you can land the a blow. Consider that there are a number of materials in SW that resist lightsabers, see: vibroswords. Marine armour is made of a ceramite and adamantium combination that utterly outclasses such materials. And then you've got to manage hurting the marine inside said armour.
Deflections. Marine scale Bolts are the size of your fist. Lightsabers are not that wide. Shrapnel and superheated gas everywhere if you try that.
Jedi are quick precoging devils though aren't they? Marines shoot down genestealers.
Marines in armour are absurdly fast. Do not forget that a Tac Marine has spent time as an Assault Marine, throwing himself feet first into hostiles and killing them face to face. For decades. Enemies like orcs, eldar, necrons and Chaos SPESS marines.
Let's talk force though. Mind tricks won't work. Force of will, mental fortitude and training to recognise and slay those with mental powers.
TK? Marines out mass small vans. Knights do not have the power to stop a marine in motion.
Tac Marines are too big, too fast, too tough, too experienced and too well equipped for a Knight to stop.

>>46005407
Lightsaber =/= Power Weapon
Lightsabers are plasma. Really hot and energetic matter. The ultimate in hot knife through butter styling.
Power Weapons are surrounded by a NOPE field. They make molecules fall apart.
A Power Weapon with it's field on would shear through a lightsaber in a spray of plasma losing containment.

>>46005368
>Jedi
>Average Joe
Let's stop pretending there is any real difference between Space Marines and Guardsmen while we're at it.

>>46005488
They create an area of extreme gravity. Going off the rpg. It's an exceptionally hard test to do anything in the point of impact for several rounds after. Vs test 60 str unnatural x2.

>>46005679
Lightsabers=/=Lasguns. A Lightsaber is capable of melting its way through a bulkhead, much the same as a power weapon. They're roughly equivalent.

>>46004226
>Who would win, a Jedi or a roid raging Storm Trooper
This thread was everything it promised to be.

>>46005679
>I have no fucking clue what plasma is.
You are funny.
40 of the toppest keks for the court jester.

>>46005713

Yeah, the RPG and Tabletop have kinda gone completely opposite ways on this front.

The TT has them as fucking USELESS against things without armour as they are not weighing enough to crush them with but it sheers through big mean guys in power armour like there is no tommorow.

The RPG has them be pretty useless against big guys in power armour as those guys have the strength to just overwhelm it but small agile guys with little armour are fucked.

>>46005679
Las=plasma? Wut?

You might be fan boy sperging matey.

>>46005756
TIL. Only played the rpg. Thanks mate.

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>>46004226
There were weapons, usually swords, in the old star wars AU that couldn't cut through stuff as quickly as lightsabers but used the same tech and could actually disable a lightsaber on contact, would power weapons or maybe force weapons work the same way?

But if we're just talking a regular marine then jedi without a doubt.

>>46005772

No problem. The wonders of 40k and being completely inconsistent.

But hey, that's part of the fun.

Depends who is writing.
In a Star Wars story, the heoric Jedi would handily defeat the brutal, monstrously warped agents of the evil Emperor of bigottry and hate.
In 40k fiction, the perfected guardians of the Empire of Sacred Humanitas would trounch the heretical cultist psykers who unnaturally combine with Xenos.

If we must hash the nonsensical comparison in a forced shared cosmos... Jedi win 1-1 because the Force is plot power and the Jedi stories revolve around solo heroism. In group action, the Space Marines deal with a barely noticeable speed bump as their strength is in unity of purpose and dedication to hierarchy and comraderie.

>>46005818
underrated response. 10/10.

>>46005088
I think HK-47 mentions it. If not one thing that can be said is that the very physics of a saber as mentioned in universe doesn't support the idea of projectiles being deflected

>>46004226
How about a Jedi vs a Psycher?
Now THAT would be some crazy shit.

>>46004226
A bunch of Sith fall to Chaos, how buffed do they get to go against CSM? >>46005818

>>46004226
A Space Marine would demolish a Jedi at range, any weapon that a Space Marine wields would blow a Jedi into molten chunks of fizzling flesh as a Jedi would not be able to deflect it back.

Close combat, I will still give this to the Space Marine as both are lighting fast combatants but a Space Marine's bulk will crush a Jedi and a Space Marine can kill with his fists easily as well with the other close combat weapons at his disposal. A lightsaber can cut through doors but it takes a while. A Space Marine would not allow a lightsaber to cut through him like that. A Space Marine would only need one hit to kill a Jedi while a Jedi would have cut through joints on the Space Marine's armour which would be incredibly difficult.

A Librarian would just put a Jedi into a coma or mindflay a Jedi with little effort.

Anyway, why would these two be fighting each other? I quite should that both would realise that the other one fights for humanity and is not a bad guy.

>>46005886
Depends how OP both are.

If we're talking about Apex Psykers, then the Jedi is screwed since they can warp reality around them on top of being ridiculously crazy.

Depends on if a boltershell goes off if cut in half. If it does, Jedi go down like bitches.

If they don't, then the Jedi win by closing to melee and then abusing the fact that their weapons could only be stopped by power/force weapons

>>46005913
The Jedi do not fight for humanity. They accept Xenos into their ranks, copulate with Xenos, and are led by Xenos.

>>46005818
>Force is plot power
>implying only Jedi resolve around solo heroism

No, you cant say a side wins because of plot power, especially after you just said that its subjective based on the writer.

This thread has constant examples of why the jedi loses the 1v1, trying to hand wave it by "plot power" is moronic at best.

>>46004398
Librarians wouldn't need a Jedi to train them. A Librarian has all the powers of a Jedi and more. Just with the added chance of demonic fuckery.

>>46005704
I obviously ment average joe the jedi knight since thats what we are on about

>>46005939
and stuff like refraction fields, rosariusses, and god forbid displacement fields.

inquisitor vs a jedi? interesting conundrum..

>>46005943
Well, they are nice xenos so to speak and the Imperium is not completely unreasonable. Jedi would most likely just to be told to avoid Imperium held areas.

The xenos in Warhammer are monsters who deserve to be annihilated.

>>46004226
Depends entirely on the individuals. Kyp Durron versus Battle-Brother Genericus of the Ultramarines? Kyp Durron cleans house. Chief Libby Tigger versus some random Jedi Knight? Tigger wins.

In general, I'd put SM over Jedi.

>>46005913
Don't forget SM are significantly stronger than a Jedi. So faster, more agile, and stronger.

Sometimes you see the car coming, but still just don't have enough time to get out of the way.

I'm not saying a Jedi couldn't win, but it would be unlikely.

But since Jedi actually use diplomacy, it probably wouldn't come down to it since they would just GTFO.

>>46005994
>Imperium
>Reason

Millennia since humanity went into the stars in 40K-verse and 9/10 of the total alien species are irredeemable assholes that enslaved the first humans, killed them, ate them, or all three things altogether.

And that's one of the core elements of the Imperium's policy towards alien races.

>>46005939
There's good chance power armour will be somewhat effective against lightsabres. Its been shown a few times that especially thick and/or dense materials can significantly slow a lightsabre. Thick and dense is a good description of marine PA so I can see a lightsabre blow merely resulting in a deep gash in the armour instead of lopping off limbs willy nilly.

>>46005086
Because lasers, moron

>>46006128
.... please tell me you aren't implying that blasters are lasers...

>>46005407
I think Eisenhorn had one in Xenos too.

Jedi win both. They'd negotiate out of both situations using mind manipulation and techniques that a Space Marine Librarian wouldn't be able to detect.
Even if it did come down to fighting, mind tricks and illusions are what would cause Space Marines to lose horribly, unless they were a naturally force resistant race,
or they knew how to play pazzak

>>46004244
Space marines have died by grots, cultists, and guardsmen.

>>46004318
If my Star Wars vidya have taught me anything, a good old fashioned force push is all it would take to return that shit to sender.

>>46005354
Luke gave up halfway, and Yoda had to get it done for him. I'm not sure if Yoda was being stately about it, but he also lifted and shifted the X-wing pretty slowly.

Bear in mind that Yoda in his prime had to spend a good 10 seconds straining to catch a fallen pillar. I'd assume a regular accomplished Jedi would lift the Marine relatively clumsily.

The average SM would probably against the average Jedi, but the top-tier jedi/sith (things like Darth Nihilus, or Darth Sion) would probably win against a primarch (except against Magnus, who would at the very least reach a stalemate).

>>46006508
Wouldn't Magnus just rip a portal into the Realm of Chaos and have anyone sucked in there?

>>46004226
The Marine, 9 times out of 10.

While a lightsaber would probably cut through power Armor with little issue, the Marine would have to be an idiot to simply tank a blow from what I'd clearly some manner of energy/plasma weapon rather than attempt to dodge it.
The Bolter, described in fluff as a semi-automatic precise fire weapon, is a less than ideal counter to the Jedi's limited future sight, and lacks the RoF to overwhelm him. However, the explosive bolts force the Jedi to dodge rather than attempt deflection, limiting his ability to avoid fire.

Ultimately it comes down to speed in the melee, and while a Jedi's abilities allow them to move with perfect efficiency, letting him flow to meet blows the moment they opponent conceives of the swing, the fact remains that a Marine is simply too fast. The space between forming intent and the completion of a swing is too brief for the Jedi to move more than a few inches (assuming a human Jedi; other species may have faster muscle contraction rates).

>>46006561
Darth Sion would probably surivive. Darth Nihilus would probably thrive, in the warp.

>>46004866
...Depends on the Space Marine. Imperial Fists, Dark Angels and the like are legendarily stubburn and balk at the concept of falling back even one step. Ultramarines, Raven Guard, most others, would fall back the second the war required it. Astartes are there to win wars. Not pointlessly die in a useless and impossible to win engagement. Hitting and fading are more or less the standard Astartes MO.

>>46004226

When it comes to raw stats, I'd say that a Jedi has human stats, but high weapon skill. WS4 or WS5? He's also armed with a Power Weapon that may or may not be master-crafted.

Also, the Jedi has a Psyker power. Veil of Time, or some kind of physical-related one. This, by the way, means that Jedi aren't troops: They're independent characters.

The Space Marine has better stats, but it's likely that the Jedi kills him. However, if you're talking about a Space Marine IC versus a Jedi, the Space Marine IC usually wins.

In the fluff, I would side with the Space Marines simply because Space Marines fight all kinds of shit. They fight Psykers, they fight daemons, they fight really horrible aliens - Jedi mainly fought humans. (I don't think the Star Wars universe even HAS demons.)

Also, pound-for-pound, a Space Marine Librarian is more powerful than a Jedi. I'd argue that a Space Marine Librarian can likely beat Darth Vader. Grey Knights, of course, beat all Jedi.

A more interesting question is - How would a Inquisitor do against a Jedi? Eisenhorn, for instance, is basically a Jedi Knight down to the Psyker abilities, the power (and later force sword) and he even performs similar feats, though he tends to use his powers to kill.

>>46004978
>daemonfuge example.
You mean that one thing written in the fluff from nearly 20 years ago? That one thing that is clearly not canon after countless counter-examples in more recent (and canon) situations?

There's a lot of spess mereen wank in this thread but it's not wrong.

>>46004331
>at best they are equal in numbers
Really depends on the era in SW and the quantity of Space Marines.

Lets assume a joint task force rather than all space marines, since that seems to be the most the Imperium can call upon/deploy to any one engagement at a time. Chances are the Jedi Order in most eras could call on more Jedi than the likely 4k Space Marines, given that they were an organisation that spanned many thousands of worlds.

>are all trained the same and for the same purpose
Incorect. Jedi have a variety of fighting styles and specialisations, with some prioritising support, some prioritising dealing melee damage, some prioritising negotiations and some prioritising looking into the future. Even outside of these, there are different approaches to each form and are trained since a young age.

>powerfield would be able to resist a number of saber strikes.
Theres not much by way of evidence to support this conclusion. Even if we take it that Lightsabers are equivalent to Power Swords (they're not, there are Power Swords in setting), power swords are usually not stopped by Rosarius, which are the most common powefield generators Space Marines would have to the best of my knowledge.

>experience would trump the Jedi.
Not necessaily. Some of the youngest members of the order, true, but your average Jedi is much more active than your average Space Marine. They also tend to live longer than humans and train directly under the most experienced members of the order, often times, meaning that experience is being constantly passed on.

>Psychic Hoods, which deny them their force powers
Well, that assumes that the Force and Psykers powers work in the same manner. They don't. They don't corrupt, they have nothing to do with the warp and they aren't ''psychic''. According to the Star Wars Pseudo-Science, they are an integral part of all life. Is your Librarius still in some way alive? Then they can be affected by the Force.

(cont)

>>46005258
Eh, I don't know. Yoda might not seem like much, but then he goes and casually levitates an X-wing with no sign of exhaustion or stress. And both he and the viewers know that he's only doing it to prove a point.

>>46006868
(cont)
However, the Space Marines do have a number of advantages.

As an organisation, they are ruthless. They will virus bomb worlds to deny them to the enemy gladly, while the Jedi would refuse to do so on principle. Furthermore, the Jedi Order is pacifistic and thus would be extremely vulnerable to the sort of alpha-strike actions that Space Marines excel at.

Similarly, the Jedi bear some advantages. They are all equivalent to Psykers in terms of combat potential but their abilities work in a different manner, meaning standard Anti-Psyker measures will not be effective against them. Furthermore, their primary weapon is more powerful than the equivalent Space Marine Melee weapon, which could be a major factor depending on which Chapter they encounter first.

Ultimately, the Marines would win a war as you posit. The Jedi are not equipped to fight a war, nor do they ever intend to. They'd attempt negotiations first and, where Space Marines are concerned, this would be a waste of time. Combine this with the range advantage of the Space Marines and their willingness to glass planets to deny them to the enemy, Space Marines win.

However, put a Marine in a one on one duel with a Jedi of equivalent rank and you'd have a pretty even match up. It would largely boil down to each of their specialisations, skills and wits with an assault Marine likely utterly wrecking a diplomat but a tactical Marine probably losing to a specialist fighter.

>>46005003

Actually, that's something that's worth talking about.

Jedi are psykers, or psykers use the Force, right? (For the purposes of argument.) If Jedi use the Warp, they're in deep shit. They have to deal with all the 40K psychic nastiness. More, 40K doesn't even have a benevolent afterlife that guides you. Ben Kenobi would be really fucked-up the way all Psykers are when they die.

But if 40K uses the Force, suddenly things are a lot better for them. Now they don't have to deal with daemons or rogue psykers! Hell, the Emperor of Man himself would cry tears of joy, because he doesn't have to deal with the Chaos Gods.

>>46006904
>Jedi are psykers, or psykers use the Force, right? (For the purposes of argument.)

A bit questionable and relies on them getting access to the other sides usage of it.

Mind you, I don't see the Space Marines having fun with the Dark Side of the force wasting away all their psykers. Because I'm gunna guess that 'hate' is kinda an important part of the Space Marine Psyche.

>>46006954

Actually, it depends.

You see, the Dark Side of the Force doesn't make you waste away. (This is canonically true.) Unfortunate accidents do.

Darth Vader didn't become scarred and awful because he was channeling the dark side. He was fucked up because Obi-Wan dropped him into a lava pool. We now know that Palpatine was actually a fairly ordinary-looking old man, but he only ended up evil-looking when Mace reflected Force lightning back onto him.

Besides, Space Marines are big on discipline. I see 'em kind of shrugging it off.

>>46006904
It depends really. If you wanted a standard metric, you'd need to either cripple the Jedi or strengthen the Imperium.

See, in universe, the Force is life-essence basically. Its the soul and the capability of the soul to influence the world around it. If something is alive, in the slightest, it generally has a force signature and thus can be affected by the force. As a result, it'd allow the Jedi to affect everyone and everything. Rather OP really, when you think about it. Its also noteworthy that force power can be driven by emotions, while such things are simply a liability to psykers.

So, if you made the Force equal The Warp, thus making all jedi psykers, they'd be pretty fucked. They have a tendency to exploit, though controlledly so, their emotions for a boost of power as needed and, worse again, even being aware of the precise position of their lightsaber requires the Force. Without the ability to call on it with ease, they are crippled.

On the other hand, Space Marine Librarians suddenly given access to something that can be used without fear of corruption (assuming emotional discipline) would weep tears of joy at being able to unleash their powers at-will without fear of turning into a fucking gribbly beast or turning to Chaos, making the Librarians effectively far more powerful.

If, instead, you take them as separate but equivalent, Jedi win out largely. Not only does their variant pose no direct risks to them, it can be empowered through emotion and can be used rather extensively. Meanwhile, the Librarians are constantly at danger of corruption or even just accidentally opening a warp rift or otherwise invoking the Perils of the Warp. Not only would this drain their numbers, it prevents them from using their powers as freely and extravagantly as Jedi could.

>>46007063

Yeah, but the Force doesn't seem to be as powerful as the Warp. Like, you need to be a really evil motherfucker to summon Force Lightning. But there are pyrokinetics, telekinetics and people who use these kind of weapons on a tactical scale in 40K.

I mean, I don't know about The Force Unleashed, but we've seen very nasty effects in the 40K Inquisitor novels. At the very least, 40K has Force Weapons which flat-out beat lightsabers in every way possible.

>>46006868
>Theres not much by way of evidence to support this conclusion. Even if we take it that Lightsabers are equivalent to Power Swords (they're not, there are Power Swords in setting), power swords are usually not stopped by Rosarius, which are the most common powefield generators Space Marines would have to the best of my knowledge
What? Yes they are.
Rosiarius can block all power weapons and some patterns of powersword are literally lightsabers in all but name, and can be blocked by any powerfield just fine.

>>46005632

/k/ went through this in detail. Including the ramming.

Imperial and Imperium naval tech is roughly similar. Both fleets' typical warships can render a planet uninhabitable, and have supertech that can destroy one entirely. Taking that as a baseline, and the fact that the offense/defense balances are similar, then we can conclude that fleet weapons, armor, and shields are similar overall. Imperium ships are much larger than star destroyers, but not grossly so and it doesn't seem to affect anything.

Imperium ships might try ramming... If they can pull it off sure that will work. But Empire ships are much smaller and that makes them tougher targets (escort-sized).

Stormtroopers and armsmen fight at the speed of plot. If you add Space Marines, Imperium wins hands down. Ditto for the ships' speed and maneuverability. Also ditto for leadership. Both sides are equally, often self-defeatingly, ruthless and cruel.

Ok. Now we get to fighters. ALL star destroyers carry a complement of attack craft. These are smaller, more nimble, and better armed than Imperium fighters. A small number even have hyperdrives.

In Psi, the Imperium simply curb-stomps the Empire, even if it's just Navy vs Navy. The Imperium has hundreds or thousands of psykers of Darth Vader / Palpatine level or better.

But now for the factor that I think is decisive: hyperdrive.

Imperium ships take weeks or months to make voyages. It's a risky, unreliable tech. The smallest warp-capable ship is the size of a small star destroyer. Communication is via brief messages screamed into the Warp by psykers. Whereas the Empire has real-time, reliable communication. They can cross the galaxy in a few days. Even many fighters have hyperdrive.

What this means is that apart from precog, the Empire's naval intelligence and reconnaissance will be unparalleled. The Empire is free to strike where the Imperium is weak, withdraw where pressed, and concentrate their forces. Imo, that's the winning advantage.

>>46007147
You don't actually need to be an evil prick to use force lightning really. The main reason the Jedi don't use it is because they see it as a perversion of the force.

I don't know know for certain, of course,but I imagine such qualms would go out the window as soon as the Jedi saw the Space Marines glass a planet. Even aside from that, if we count all self-proclaimed jedi instead of just the Jedi Order, many Grey Jedi would have no qualms about using Force Lightning if they saw enough need.

As to the power of Jedi in general, because they refuse to employ the force offensively most of their noteworthy powers are support basically. They can heal wounds, they can make everyone around them in a bubble fight better, they can look into the future and see what the enemy will do and they can use precognition to avoid the enemies attacks. And you don't even need to be a master to be able to use these powers to a highly effective degree, often simultaneously.

I mean, a group of Jedi with 1 support specialist could benefit from Battle Meditation as well as each of their individual capabilities.

Still, on the scale of a true war the Jedi would probably lose. They're pacifists, which makes them extremely vulnerable to the Alpha Strike approach of Space Marines, and they aren't an Army, meaning they lack the framework for a long term conflict to be prosecuted effectively.

Theyd win a lot of duels, maybe a few of the battles, but they'd lose the war.

>>46004612
Well there is that short story about Lucius dueling Thousand Sons marine, and I think he was able to outpace the precognition.

>>46007341

Lucius is the favored Goes Fast Duelist of the Goes Fast Chaos God. I'm not sure that's really indicative of all marines.

>>46007341
Lucius isn't exactly indicative of the average though, is he?

Also, Im assuming he managed that by simply carrying through his intentions before the Thousan Sons Marine could respond. Jedi are capable of boosting their reactions speeds, which could well negate that.

>>46007366
All that sanic speed is of no use when khorne pounds her boipussy in.

>>46004226
thread is full of retards on all sides no one mentioned that a jedi could jut use the force to disarm the fuck

>>46007429
A Space Marine does not need weapons to kill. His training, fists, feet and even his spit are all enough to turn a Jedi into an unrecognizable mess.

>>46004226
I want to say the jedi would have a notable chance of victory in melee with a space marine in single combat. Jedi are trained to have crazy fast reaction time, similar to space marines, but jedi have their foresight which gives them a big edge. The jedi doesn't only need to get hit once to get killed or critically injured while the needing to hit the marine multiple times to break through the power armor, so I wouldn't hand the fight over the jedi on a silver platter.

If combat begins at a range than the Jedi is fucked because if you block a bolt it still explodes, but there is a chance a Jedi could dodge them, as they're trained to dodge and reflect blaster fire which I would assume has a faster muzzle velocity. Still they would need to dodge every shot and close the gap then beat them in melee, all of which are very hard things to do. Maybe an elite Jedi master could do it but not much else.

IoM vs Galactic republic. IoM wins UNLESS there just as bogged down as they are in M41. By M41 the Imperium is already fucked up in 11 different ways so the Jedi and republic would be the straw that breaks the Imperium's back.

>>46004226

One is science fantasy where the Force is a strange and mystical, loosely defined power. The setting is part whimsical, but mostly about adventure, wonder and the fight between good and evil. Much like Lord of the Rings, IN SPACE.

The other is a grimdark bloodfest where everything isn't only turned up to 11, but beyond and goes so far into the realm of edgy it comes back into comical, passes that, and plants back into super-edgy again. It's literally a fight between Gandalf and Vecna. Who would win? Vecna, because that's just how the setting is. Flamboyant, over-the-top and without a hint of subtlety. Same goes for Jedi vs Space Marine.

>>46004226
Another thread where 40kids reveal how stupid they are.

A space marine wouldn't stand a chance. For all the plot armor they might have, for all the masturbatory armaments they might possess, that is absolutely nothing in the face of someone attuned with the Force.

Force wins. It's literally the "Your universe loses" part of the SW discussion.

Oh, your space marine only has a tiny little weakness that is extremely difficult to hit? One shot from a blaster and the Jedi wins at the exact moment the universe decides would be the best time. It might look like a close fight, but at the end of the day, whatever a space marine might try to do, they're ill-prepared to try and fight against someone that has the entire universe supporting them.

>>46007746
Shitter shattered star wars fan detected.

>>46007746
You are a casual faggot.

>>46007574
Throw a lightsaber guided by the force. Kill the Marine in under ten seconds, retrieve the saber, and proceed to decimate the rest of the squad which can't even hit a squad of orcs with any markedly impressive accuracy.

Space Marines might as well be roided up Storm Troopers with even worse accuracy.

>>46006706
Yeah. Nihilus at this point was a walking, life-sucking black hole

>>46007746

>Retard: The Posting

>>46007786
>>46007805
>tears of the 40kids

Delicious. Tell me more about how your underpowered universe can't even beat Star Trek.

>>46007806
The Space Marine would just dodge it and shoot the defenseless Jedi.

Even with the lightsaber, you are not deflecting 75 cal explosive rounds.

>>46007841
Dodge what? A telekinetically guided and accelerated death beam with a handle?

As cute as Space Marines are, they get outclassed by space elves in their own little game.

>>46007232
>Imperium ships are much larger than star destroyers, but not grossly so and it doesn't seem to affect anything.
It would effect things. Given aproximate tech parity bigger is better simply through ecomonies of scale. Besides that 40k ships have an enormous range advantage.

I think you're overstating the logistics advantage. Imperial navy ships are more self sufficient so aren't as impacted by cut off or long supply lines.
Though slower theres still nothing SW can do about warp travel, either side can pull surprise attacks against vulnerable targets.

>>46007746
Isn't the force a evolutionary trait involving the composition and make up of cells in a persons body. That sounds similar to psychic powers in Humans in the 40k universe.

>>46007863
Yes, they would dodge it, it's not that fast. Also, Eldar are insanely fast and have utterly deadly weapons.

There is a reason why Space Marines are wary of Eldar.

Just read this. This will show the power of the average Space Marine. Jedi are cool but are outclassed by Space Marines.

https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/1sou86/the_humble_space_marine

>>46007903
Not really. Psykers in 40k is about the soul interacting with another dimension.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPeI4mX8Nus

it depends on how much knowledge the space marines have beforehand, but some of this stuff is basic space marine doctrine (using explosives, for instance).

this is non-canon now, but jedi in the movies are generally weaker than in the EU anyway.

>>46007817
>muh EU is canon.
>muh 1 jedi folded mirrion times is worth spess mahreens
Reminder that Jar Jar is canon.

>>46007865
More self sufficient does not indicate completely self sufficient
the fact that the empire is capable of taking out IoM planets at rates up to a thousand times faster than they are capable of taking out empire planets ends up hurting in the long run

not to mention the massive advantage of instantaneous communications as well as small ships with FTL capabilities. If used properly this would also fully negate the IoM's range advantage by simply warping in for combat at the optimal distance for empire ships (which they would be able to determine easily by utilizing scout ships which the IoM is simply not capable of thanks to the restrictions on both FTL travel and communications)

This would also severely hamper the ability of the imperior for surprise attacks. To gain information on a target they need to warp in one of their massive detectable ships to scout potential targets then wait several weeks for the actual strike force, during which time the Empire has ample time to either prepare for a counter attack or else minimize their losses
if the IoM detects a scout ship on the other hand they have zero response capability to the Empire's strike beyond what is already present in the system

>>46006332

This. It is possible, albeit uncommon, for a fully armored space marine to be killed by a perfectly normal shotgun.

>>46004226
If there is anything we can take away from the Prequels, it's that the entire Jedi Order was soul crushingly stupid and incompetent.

>>46004488
>lightsabers
>normal armor
hahahahaha no, they cleave through pretty much anything that isn't made of cortosis or phrik or some other weird esoteric energy-resistant material

>>46004226
>the two shittiest "scifi" settings that have ruined real scifi forever merge
Whoever wins, we've already lost.

Your average Jedi is probably about as strong as your average Howling Banshee but with extra psionic powers.

>>46008087
>my autism is so crippling it has left me allergic to fun

>>46007914
That wank is hardly anything compared to SW Jedi wank. Really, you 40kids are only protected by your ignorance, and possibly by Disney's decision to null the EU.

We're talking about Deus Ex Knights. Knights that even people who like Star Wars had to say "Holy fuck, these writers need to stop jerking the Jedi cock."

And, it's not about how fast the saber is thrown. We're talking about telekinetic guidance that makes the saber turn towards wherever the Space Marine dodges. We have the actual universe itself bending over backwards just to ensure that the Space Marine gets hit exactly where he doesn't want to be hit.

You can masturbate to how powerful you think the Space Marines are all you want, but they're stuck in a pathetically underpowered universe that simply tries to spin up numbers to try and impress people, all while every other universe has eight or nine different ways of rendering all their strength obsolete. It's the whole "fighting harder, not smarter" that is the equivalent of trying to smash through a steel wall while everyone else just goes through the door.

>>46008106
>this buttblasted that his EU canon got tossed out of the window.

>>46006318
Jedi mind games generally don't work very well on smart people.
Space marines are brilliant and strong of will.

>>46008139
It sounds more like you're buttblasted that not everyone is so stupid as to think that Space Marines are anything except jokes outside of your little fandom.

I'd be the first one to say I don't really like the EU.

>>46004226
It depends on which universe they meet in.

>SW universe
Marine fucked
>40k universe
Jedi fucked
>Real universe
Jedi loses their powers but probably still alive at least, marine fucked by coherent laws of physics

>>46007991
To be honest i see this ending in mutual destruction. The empire goes off and conquers a few planets, the imperium sets off a retaliatiatory crusade fleet. Later after the empire has probably managed to beat their way to sol claim a phyrric victory over the most absurdly fortified system in the galaxy they start celebrating their win. A few weeks later the crusade fleet exits warp at coruscant stomps all over the still repairing fleet remnants and exterminatus the galactic capital. With the collapse of both governments it's an arachists galaxy for a while.

>>46008196
It beats the shit out of nucanon brah, Jediwank or not

>>46008106
Could you at least post some Jedi skills then? I can't compare and contrast unless I have facts.

Secondly, the Imperium has been fighting for 10,000 years non-stop. There is little to nothing that can stop it in terms of other sci-fi settings.

This reaches to my third point, I and others here are igornant; I have looked at settings (even ones that I'm not fans of) and know that Warhammer would take a good beating or lose against some. These are...

Supreme Commander (even the smallest units are absolutely massive and can build them in massive numbers very quickly).

Transformers (Cybertron, Unicron and the Cybertronian race could cause some insane amount of damage against the Imperium). The Cybertronian Civil War is similar to the Horus Heresy funnily enough; surprised no one has tired to make a tabletop game out of it.

The Culture (from what I heard of it, it's incredibly op but it's a good faction so all good).

>>46004463
In my mind I just saw an imperial ship literally shitting terminators at the Jedi ship. Then hilariously, the terminators just punch through the armor and start the slaughter.

>>46004488
The renditions of lightsabers in 40k have generally been as master crafted power weapons.

They basically ignore mundane armor.

>>46008211
I can't see the loss of Coruscant being as dramatic as the loss of Terra, especially if the entire governing body has been evacuated (which given the aforementioned advantages would be more than likely)
on the other hand a hyper fortified system like Sol might be impossible to conquer given that it does have the full response capability

>>46008241
*not ignorant
haha, bloody phone

>>46008241
Palpatine can make wormholes

>>46008241
I could see most versions of the Star Trek universe being able to deal with 40k

>>46004226
Due to the way the Force works, the Jedi can't be wiped out. But they can be cut down to damn near nothing, and usually are.

>>46004226
War Space marine without doubt.

Singular Jedi without doubt.

This however, might depend of how both armies are make.

If the entire Army is Jedi, they might have a chance. considering that they are usually portrait as excellent pilots and commanders... so who knows (Still think Space Marines would win).

If Singular combat is between an not so powerful Jedi, space marine might have a chance.

>>46008274
That's better, some facts, it's non-canon now and Palpatine did kill himself with it due to stupidity and arrogance but at least it's damn powerful to destroy fleets and ravage a world.

>>46008181
>Space marines are brilliant
Yes, paint yourself blue and charge into an enemy line instead of using tactics a bunch of American rebels figured out in their Revolutionary War before electricity was a thing.

>>46004318
>You can't deflect a bolter round with a lightsaber though, if you try you'll get a face full of shrapnel.

Sometimes? Some of the lore has shown that a lightsaber just straight up stops and melts a bullet. The bullet doesn't pass through the lightsaber's blade. Other times, though, a slugthrower is effective.

You also run into the issue that as of The Force Awakens it's shown as definitely possible to stop a blaster bolt mid-flight. Bearing that in mind it's entirely possible that Jedi can, Neo-style, stop or at least change the course of bullets midair with the Force.

>>46007914
>https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/1sou86/the_humble_space_marine

>"Power armour is made of Ceramite, an incredibly dense material that conducts almost no heat."

Now, correct me if I'm wrong. But if that's true, then wouldn't the lightsaber have very hard time going through the armor then, considering, as far as I'm concerned, it's all about heat?

>>46008265
Why would the government be evacuated? They'll be in there dealing with all the shit from their win and have no way of knowing about the coming attack because they have no way of doing anything with warp tech. Coruscant dies for basically all the reasons sol does. With either side the attacker has a big advantage because beither of them can detect or block each others forces in transit.

>>46008317
>inb4 "electricity has always been a thing"
You know what I mean you pedantic shitlords, don't start.

>>46008317
>America won the revolution by shooting dumb brits in bright red uniforms
>*Clapping sounds

>>46008181
They work on other Jedi. Sith. Entire armies i.e. battle meditation. They aren't even aware. They can't defend. Hope to hell they're smart enough to shoot the correct force clone.

>>46008241
>10,000 years non-stop.

With bizarre self-imposed limits on technological advancement, alongside poor writing that fails to comprehend what 10,000 years even means. Most other settings can treat a few decades as the equivalent to the entire history of 40K.

Look at Star Trek. Takes place in the 2100s, and they have superior technology to the 40k universe, with most of stuff they use on a casual, daily basis being so thoroughly overwhelming that the only saving grace that 40k might have is that most of them are designed with peace, rather than war, in mind.

It's the whole "smarter. not stronger" that gives most Sci-fi settings an edge over a game designed around planet-bound combat written by people who were trying to impress children, instead of trying to impress adults.

>>46008325
Quite simple
IoM has incredibly limited venues of obtaining information to the point that if they know about Coruscant the Empire is guaranteed to not only know about it but also have plenty of time to develop countermeasures.
A fairly simple one is evacuating all critical members of the government.

>>46008320
Bolters aren't quite normal bullets, the explosive charge is quite likely to be set off by hitting the sabre. The sabre blade is narrower than a bolt so it's just gonna bisect it rather than melting the whole thing(if it doesn't just explode first of course)

>>46008321
>considering, as far as I'm concerned, it's all about heat?

The common material used in the Star Wars universe is called durasteel. It's an alloy of neutronium, a hyperdense metal harvested from neutron stars - theoretically this means that even a small amount of it (the size of a Nintendo DS, say) should weigh like a metric tonne, but they seem to ignore that.

In any even, lightsabers still cut through it easily enough. I don't see any reason to think that "ceramite" should be considered much different from durasteel.

>>46004226
Star Wars canon states that actual, solid metal bullets are an effective way of killing Jedis since the lightsaber won't deflect their trajectory and the bullet will melt through the lightsaber, burning the Jedi

But apart from that in my professional opinion it would be

In normal combat
Jedi > Normal SM
Psyker > Jedi
SM Captain > Jedi
Jedi Master (Yoda/ Obi-Wan tier) > Most SM Captains
Primarch >>> Emperor/Darth Vader tier

War between both
40K wins due to the sheer difference in numbers. For every Jedi in SW there is an entire chapter worth of marines in 40k
Also, in space combat and destructive weaponry 40k dwarfs SW

>>46007746
Does this even classify as bait?
This is just straight up shit posting.

File: image.jpg (73KB, 900x386px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 900x386px

IT DEPENDS ON THE SETTING

40k and Star Wars have highly conflicting universe rules.

If Jedi in 40k, their absolute submission to their psyker emergy causes them all to be consumed by Daemons before they encounter Space Marines.

If Star Wars, the Force balances itself, and so the Jedi would be wiped out but would be destined to return while the Space Marines will eventually go extinct.

>>46008353
Except they literally have magic and can literally magic up the answer or read peoples minds. Or just eat their enemies brains to gain their knowledge. They can easily have the necessary knowledge without their opponents knowing.

>>46008372
Both sides have single ships that can render the surface of a planet useless
doesn't matter you can ultra mega render it sterile

and as mentioned before in the thread the empire has a massive strategic advantage in the form of faster and more reliable ftl

>>46008351
>Takes place in the 2100s,

Uh, point of order, that's not 100% correct.

Enterprise takes place in the 2150s.

The Original Series, the Animated Series, and the JJ films take place in the mid to late 2200s.

The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, and Voyager takes place in the late 2300s.

Finally, Star Trek Online takes place in the very early 2400s.

>>46008395
oh they'll know about Coruscant
but exact coordinates will be harder

>>46008363
There's probably just a very tiny amount neutronium to get the desired effect without being uselessly heavy.

>>46008426
Either way it's still a fictional material about which we know little, made partially from collapsed stars. I don't see why ceramite should be treated as better - or worse.

>>46007865
>Given aproximate tech parity

But there isn't tech parity. In cases like hyperdrive the Empire is provably better (and in other ways, the Imperium is clearly ahead).

OTOH, star destroyers and Imperium capital ships both do similar damage vs inhabited worlds. So their overall damage is roughly comparable. Meanwhile, it takes a very long time for two ISDs to fight it out-- which means their shields are roughly capable of handling their own firepower (which makes sense). This is true for Imperium capital ships as well.

So in BFG terms, an ISD is an escort the size of a Sword-class frigate that has the firepower of an Imperium Cruiser's broadside (6WB/2L); split evenly into F/L and a R/L arcs.

Plus launch bays. Imperium fighters are huge things with several people as crew. More akin to gamma class attack shuttles in star wars terms, or PT boats in ours. A squadron of 12 TIE Bombers can take out an ISD all by itself so long as they have an escort to clear the enemy fighter screen. Multiple squadrons of Starhawk bombers are required to take out an Imperium cruiser. So if anything, TIEs are better than Imperium attack craft. In BFG terms, an ISD carries 6 1/2 squadrons of fighters, plus 2 of assault boats, plus miscellaneous craft.

We have no information on how they stack up in terms of tactical speed, maneuvering, or weapons range.

>bigger is better simply through ecomonies of scale. Besides that 40k ships have an enormous range advantage.

There are also diseconomies of scale. Bigger isn't necessarily better. Neither you nor I have any information on comparative range.

>>46008372

Um, no it isn't. Actually, in the JK games, you can actually deflect bullets like it aint no thang.

>>46008363
underestimating it much
a single teaspoon of neutronium has a mass of two billion metric ton

>>46008462
>games
In the EU books the jedis themselves admit that trying to block actual bullets is hard as fuck and often lethal

>>46008396
Firepower difference still matters.
A hand gun and a tanks 120mm gun can both kill a horse, but that doesn't mean we can consider them equivalent.

When we get numbers for SW ships its usually 3 or 4 orders of magnitude less than 40k ships. Its too big a difference too ignore.

>>46008496

Then you'll have no trouble providing a book and page reference, right?

>>46008496
however a smart jedi could remotely jam firearms
blocking the actual bullets not so much sure it serves the same effect

>>46008496
As much as it sucks, EU is no longer canon
I bet my left nut that in future New Canon they'll just say 'yeah stopping bullets is super fucking easy'

>>46008290
I have never seen Star Trek as powerful to be honest. Apart from Q, the god like character. Star Trek does have some cool characters like Picard and the Borg.

>>46008321
I'm not exactly sure but I see a lightsaber against space marine power armour like Qui-Gon Jinn putting his lightsaber into the door. It could go through power armour but would take far too long. The Space Marine would have killed the Jedi by then. Jedi have to go for the joints in power armour and that would be incredibly difficult.

>>46008351
The writing's not poor, it explains from M15-M41 what has been happening with humanity during these thousand of years. A technological dark age caused by galaxy-spanning warp storms and psyker outbursts, robot rebellions, rebellions and technology being lost and broken caused all of it.

I consider it unrealistic that humantity has survived all of this and more. Also it's implied during the early human history and the Dark Age of Technology (M15-M20) that humanity was insanely advanced. They lost the vast majoirty of it during the Age of Strife. The Emperor has rebuilt using the scraps.

Star Trek has also not had wars on the scale of Warhammer that set us back to the Dark Age. The Federation has remain enlightened and a peaceful culture that helps other races as xenos are not murdering psychopaths in Star Trek.

>>46007429
When a trans-human who with armor weight just under 500 kg punches you with a armored armor or kicks with a armored boot I think that he can easily kill you. At the very lest it will break bones. Plus that is not his only means of fighting if disarmed from his bolter. He can use his knife. Not saying that a light saber couldn't break it, because it would break it. But till it is broken it does give the marine extra reach. Then there is micro grenade that they some times use. The timer is set via digital command via his suit to what ever time he needs. The blast is designed to were if the marine user were to caught in the blast it would only cause him minor injury so it can be used defensively against lightly armored attackers ( aka eldar). I think that a Jedi charging at a marine may surprised throws a small grenade that he was hiding in his hand at the ground in between and it only has a .3 second timer. However the weapon mostly to get the Jedi is the combat drugs that he has in auto injectors built into his suit. If a arm is cut off the vast majority of people will go into shock. Thanks to those combat drugs the marine as a good chance to not go into shock immediately after losing a arm. Thus the Jedi could end up facing a possibly lethal punch from a enemy he has every reason to believe that he just disabled. The marine does lose a arm and face the possibility of bleeding out even with his Larraman cells ,plus he will likely pass out after words. But he will of won.

Even with that I still give the Jedi a strong edge.

>>46008496

Wouldn't slugthrowers have been standard issue with the GAR then?

>>46008458
>There are also diseconomies of scale. Bigger isn't necessarily better. Neither you nor I have any information on comparative range
In the movies/novels SW stuff engages at a few hundred maybe a few thousand km. 40k stuff is usually written as engaging at hundreds of thousands even millions of km.

>>46008553
a fairly big advantage that's mentioned often is that certain star trek ships are capable of engaging in combat while still in warp
given that this prevents pretty much any 40k ship from returning fire that's significant

>>46008565
Why, they fought with the jedi not against.

>>46007865
>>46008458

>I think you're overstating the logistics advantage. Imperial navy ships are more self sufficient so aren't as impacted by cut off or long supply lines.
>Though slower theres still nothing SW can do about warp travel, either side can pull surprise attacks against vulnerable targets.

It's not a logistics advantage, it's a strategic mobility advantage. Well, not JUST a logistics advantage.

Strategic mobility means getting your fleet to where it needs to be. This is critical for many reasons. Here's a few examples.

A more strategically mobile fleet can concentrate its firepower where the enemy is weakest, then withdraw before their reinforcements arrive. It can deal with a multipronged attack piecemeal. If the enemy concentrates his power into a single big fleet, you can avoid it and strike the assets he leaves undefended. If he spreads out, you can defeat him in detail.

The Imperium's fleet is mostly locked up in the Warp waiting to arrive places. Whatever their tactical mobility, their strategic reaction time is days or weeks if they're lucky.

That means that anywhere there's a fight, the Galactic Empire's navy will have a massive numerical advantage against the Imperium. Not because the Imperium has fewer ships (the number is actually pretty comparable). Because the ships they have will always be mostly somewhere else.

>>46004599
Never EU stuff never happened.

>>46008604
It doesn't prevent it, just makes it harder.
The widespread shotgun style of most weapon battiers probably isn't a totally useless way of engaging such targets( still not great, but you could feasibly get by)

>>46008642

Here's the operations cycle. A fleet of star destroyers is in motion. Ahead of them, all nearby star systems are being surveilled by 1-2 man TIE/sr, Assault gunboats, and lambda shuttles. A target is identified, and the fleet immediately jumps. A few minutes later, they arrive and begin the attack. Then word arrives about an attack from the Imperium. They make the jump to lightspeed and arrive back in time to counter the attack.

Now the Imperium version. The Navy does its recon with escorts, each the size of an ISD and with 26,000 crew. So it's spread very thinly. Finally, a target is identified. An astropath screams into the void, and a few hours later the fleet's astropaths hear and makes their jump. A few days after that, they arrive. If the opportunity to attack is even still there, they attack. Then, a few minutes into the attack, they hear that a valuable installation is being attacked by Palpatine's fleet. Or, rather, WAS. Because the message was sent hours before and it'll be days (long after the attack is over) before they can get back even if they're in a position to jump the moment they hear about it.

The only case where this doesn't come into play is if you set the fight up as gigantic fleets of the entire Imperium and entire Empire in one titantic big battle in a particular star system. The moment you have a war with objectives to take and defend in multiple star systems, the Imperium becomes unable to use its force effectively.

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>>46008530
>A hand gun and a tanks 120mm gun can both kill a horse, but that doesn't mean we can consider them equivalent.

You're retarded. I don't think you even understand why, and that's sad.

>When we get numbers for SW ships its usually 3 or 4 orders of magnitude less than 40k ships.

Which is funny, because the design of 40k ships is clearly made without any sense of scale, with exposed exterior cathedrals that would be roughly the size of several city blocks with heights of a couple skyscrapers stacked on top of each other. If anything, by their ship design, you'd need to divide their numbers by between 100-1000 for things to start making sense.

Ignoring how inept the 40k designers are and their limited understanding of scale in all things, bigger doesn't necessarily mean better. Comparing a pre-Medieval Chinese floating city to a modern cruiser clearly puts the cruiser as the victor despite being barely a tenth of the size, and the SW universe might very well have that degree of technological superiority.

>>46004599

Christ, this, I can recall a grand total of ONE Time the whole "Lets use projectile weapons to kill a Jedi" Plan was successful, and it wasn't so much killing them as "beating them the fuck up so the Dark Jedi can stroll in at her leisure and finish them off after they finished off her forty or so assassin droids she Zerg Rushed them with." On the other hand, I can recall a whole hell of a lot of times where Jedi had a even easier time dealing with a slug thrower then a blaster.

Fucking Grots have a better kill ratio vs Space Marines then slug throwers do vs Jedi.

>>46008496

Where is that stated? It keeps being brought up but never a reference.

>>46007991

According to Wookiepedia and Rogue Trader RPG handbooks, Imperial Star Destroyers and Imperium Navy Cruisers have approximately the same supplies and mission endurance (6 months).

I agree with the rest of your post. In particular, you're right that Star Wars hyperdrive lets you pop in right by a planet's gravity well-- the Imperium ships have to slog in from the outer system.

>>46008098

I think we've mostly agreed that in stats and fighting style, a Jedi is roughly equivalent to an Eldar Warlock. IE power weapon, no armor, mostly dodging attacks, extremely good training, very high initiative mod, and some useful utility powers that vary from character to character.

>>46008677
I was talking about firepower not size. The fact 40k ships are usually bigger just makes their superior firepower less absurd.

>>46008604
The warp in Warhammer requires Geller fields which Star Trek ships don't have (Warhammer's warp is horrifying with daemons and other inhuman abominations-it's literally hell) and I believe that Warhammer ships can fight in the warp as the graphic novel ' Macragge's Honour ' has shown.

Star Trek ships are smaller so must be faster which would allow them to do faster actions attacks. However, they must not allow themselves to be hit or it's game over. Also how would the Star Trek ship in the warp fire on ships outside the warp as it's travelling incredibly fast as the Star Trek film Into Darkness showed.

>>46008714

He won't be able to provide a source, so don't bother asking, my reference here >>46008704 is from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, though I'm not entirely sure what the exact page was, it was during the big ambush on the space station where the other two adult jedi are killed. And it should be pointed out they were deflecting shit just fine, it was more of "There is too much metal shrapnel flying around for us to protect ourselves and the innocent bystanders at the same time" scenario.

>>46008317

American tactics were superior in american terrain, but those British 30 years war / napoleonic-era tactics were there for a reason and were optimal in the context where they were used.

America actually lost most battles in the Revolutionary War, and damn near lost the war.

>>46008472
Yeah, but durasteel is an alloy of neutronium, not pure neutronium. So I assume it's lighter overall.

Though, again, even a small amount *should* weigh tonnes, but they ignore that.

>>46008553
>I have never seen Star Trek as powerful to be honest

That's because the folk in Trek never play things smart. The Federation as of TNG:
- Has a slower but otherwise FAR superior method of faster-than-light travel;
- Has essentially instantaneous, essentially hazard-free transport of materials, the mass of which is unspecified but considerable (certainly enough for hundreds of tonnes at a time);
- Has ships that can, even before entering warp, travel at significant fractions of the speed of light, turning even a small shuttle into a potentially planet-busting relativistic kill vehicle;
- Has knowledge of how to build torpedoes that wipe out all life on a planet *and replace it with new life* ("Wrath of Khan");
- Has knowledge of how to build torpedoes that can kill an entire star at a time ("Generations")
- Has standard weapons that can burn through the crust of a planet in a matter of minutes (DS9 "The Die is Cast", a flotilla of around 30 ships that would be considered tiny by W40K standards was able to reduce 30% of an Earth-sized planet's crust to molten slag inside of about 10 minutes; a later episode confirmed that the tiny Defiant alone could do the same in a matter of minutes);
- Can set those same ship-based weapons to stun, pacifying entire regions of a planet at a time without killing them;
- Has casual matter replication for anything but the most truly structurally complicated matter;
- Has easy access to time travel, any ship that can hit Warp 9 in the TOS scale (significantly less in the TNG scale) and find a convenient Sol-sized star can do it;
- And so on.

The Federation, if they ever took off the kid gloves, are pretty much the scariest motherfuckers in Sci-Fi short of the Culture.

>>46008496
You don't have to block the bullets though. If your reflexes are good enough to block a bullet, they're also good enough to dodge it.

>>46008750
>However, they must not allow themselves to be hit or it's game over.

Well, if it gets past shields. Star Trek Shields and Integrity Fields are stupidly, stupidly good and can take numbers of hits that 40k only dreams of.

>>46008606

The ENTIRE point of the Clone Army, and its sole primary purpose was to wipe out the entirety of the Jedi Order. The secondary purpose was to fight a fake civil war with the Seppies long enough for Palpatine to seize enough power to make himself Emperor for Life.

>>46008750
hey fun fact
Star Trek warp =/ 40k Warp
the two are not related
Star Trek's ships are completely unaffected by anything 40k warp related
40k Ships cannot enter Star Trek warp nor Star Trek ships 40k warp

oh and Star Trek warp is fairly safe.

>>46008575

Measurements in kilometers never appears in the movies. Both settings have wildly varying hard measures like that.

What there is, is simply too internally inconsistent to be used.

>>46008750
>as the Star Trek film Into Darkness showed.

Warp in the JJ films seems to work differently than warp in most of Star Trek. In standard Star Trek combat at warp speed is completely possible and happened all the time in all the shows.

>>46004294
/thread

>>46008808
You can't very well equip your secretly jedi killing army with anti jedi weapons and expect their to be no suspicion.
Their official purpose was to fight with the jedi against the seperatists and they were equipped as such.

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>>46004584
>Padawan < Scout ~=~ Jedi Knight < Space Marine < Jedi Master < Space Marine Librarian <<<<<<<<<<<<<(exponentially) Primarch<<<<<Sheev

>>46004226
>Jedi
+ All basically psychics
+ Using their powers doesn't run the risk of the user exploding into daemons
+ Trained from a young age
+ Plasma swords with little need for recharging
+ Force powers grant incredible speed and reflexes
- Basically limited to precognition and telekinesis
- Can only block shots from so many sources at once
- Mostly limited to melee combat
- Basically normal members of their species, powers aside

>Space Marines
+ Each is basically a walking tank
+ Trained to combat all sorts of enemies in different environments
+ Augmented to hell with redundant organs and other things that raise their survivability substantially
+ Use a variety of armaments and vehicles
- Poor manual dexterity in armor
- Mental or physical issues depending on chapter with varying degrees of severety

Much as I like Jedi, I have to give this one to the marines

>>46008814
The handy part about visual mediums like movies is that you can show thingsi nstead of stating them.

While you can't peg an exact number on the distance its plain too see that the ships are relatively close together when they start taking shots.

>>46008745
It's still fairly absurd, considering that the length of their guns indicate that the designers moronically simply scaled up smaller scale weapons to ridiculous (not impressive ridiculous, but straight up stupid and impractical ridiculous) dimensions. I'd hardly be surprised if they fired bullets, though that might just be me being mean.

Also, you can see that the SW universe isn't exactly starving for size. The Eclipse-Class Super Star Destroyer (the black axe like ship) is longer than even the Universe Class Mass Conveyer, and while the Conveyer may potentially be larger by raw mass, it's hardly even close to a comparison in terms of armament.

>>46008872

Except they're not Jedi Killing weapons by default. If they DID have that magic "Pass through lightsaber blade" property, simply make some bullshit up about "Well they're a lot lower tech and thus more planets can provide supplies for the War Effort!" excuse or some shit. Or just make sure each unit has a crate of them held around somewhere, allegedly for use on one of those rare planets which has fucked up environmental conditions preventing blasters from being used.

>>46008321

Well, considering Plasma weapons in 40k eat space marines and even terminator armour for breakfast I'm going to say 'A plasma sword will do fine'

>>46008902
>- Poor manual dexterity in armor
Nope, proven otherwise.

>- Mental or physical issues depending on chapter with varying degrees of severety

Depends, generally they're strong willed, but I will give this one to you.

>>46008802
I don't know about them but I'll look them up.

>>46008813
Then both settings can't be compared. I know Star Trek Warp is safe (unless you go above Warp Speed 10 where the ship risks breaking apart and being destroyed).

>>46009004
they can be compared, they simply have different methods of attaining FTL with the same name
both methods have their respective strengths and weaknesses
honestly 40k fans, please stop implying that because something is compared to 40k immediately ALL mechanics work exactly as they do in 40k, its fairly irritating

>>46008902
>- Basically limited to precognition and telekinesis
How did you manage to try and put that into the negatives section? Also, personal energy fields are a thing in SW.

>- Mostly limited to melee combat
Hardly.

>- Basically normal members of their species, powers aside
Hardly.


>+ Use a variety of armaments and vehicles

Do you want to talk about what vehicles the Jedi have?
When it comes to vehicles, particularly single pilot ones, the SW universe blows the 40k one out of the water.

>>46008941
>I'd hardly be surprised if they fired bullets, though that might just be me being mean
Depending on the pattern some do.
Are you really surprised though? This is 40k we're talking about, over the top and ridiculous isn't writters making mistakes, its deliberate and part of the point of the setting.

>>46009094

>How did you manage to try and put that into the negatives section? Also, personal energy fields are a thing in SW.

Kinda funny they are negatives when LIBRARIANS can only manage one of those at a time.

>force lift marine, ripping the bolter apart

>Depending on how much of a dick the Sith feels like, rupture their organs one by one, drain the life energy out of them or simply throw the lightsaber to stab them through the helmet

>Drop dead marine and fry the corpse to ash while cackling

Jedi suck but palpatine tier Sith are deadly, the dark side is much better at killing.

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>All this SW fanwank when they can't even handle ST
My sides

>>46009092
I never implied that, I was just comparing Star Trek stuff in Warhammer while you were comparing Warhammer stuff in Star Trek.

>>46009097
I don't think you really appreciate the difference between "over the top" and "stupid."

Just calling stupid things "over the top" doesn't magically make them not stupid, it just makes you look stupid for wanting to try and excuse the notion of physical-projectile based weaponry, in space, with bullets the size of small buildings traveling at speeds so relatively slow that they might as well just be launching an asteroid field in front of their own ships.

Being over-the-top is cool. Being stupid on purpose? That's just being stupid.

>>46009275
Warhammer is to op.

Star Trek vs Star Wars would be a fun discussion.

>>46009275
That image is cute, but SW does have shields.

>>46009275
>Don't have shields
Found the idiot. Those bulbs at the top of the SD are giant deflector shield projectors.

>>46009350
You do realize that in this discussion, 40k isn't even allowed to sit at the adult table? SW kills it cleanly, and even the relatively weak ST trumps 40k simply because 40k is so backwards with its technology and priorities.

>>46008787

You forgot:
>Can engage in combat at FTL, and leave and re-enter FTL quickly and repeatedly.
>Have technology to render both vessels and ground troops nearly undetectable
>Manipulation of gravity and forcefields in ways that would make an Ork Mek jealous and/or aroused
>Can cure death
>Hard light holograms with killing power
>Can park ships in the goddamn corona of a star
>Can weaponize stars
>Self. Replicating. Cloaked. Minefields.

The gimmick-of-the-week tech pushes Star Trek from "pretty powerful" to "just short of Culture tier".

>>46009401
A single borg cube would Annihilate the entire Empire and the Imperium of man by itself

>>46009401
No, Warhammer looks backward but the technology is advanced with other increadibly poweful elements. Plasma Guns, planet size ships, literal Gods, standard weapons on small ships can destroy continents as well as destroy planets, psykers who can control an entire's world population, the warp can open and devour worlds and whole systems (the galaxy too if the Forces of Chaos win.

The Necrons alone in Warhammer would shit over Star Trek and Star Wars easily with little effort. The whole setting would be utter overkill.

The three settings are all cool though so I don't see a problem with any of them.

>>46004226
Let's specify the battle circumstance.

Both combatants know that they are facing an enemy. They see their enemy in front of them, in a natural enviroment without too much cover. (Sparse forest, plains, etc.)

The universe is neutral. It is not on the force users side (no plot armour), nor will it impose psyker rules on the force users.

Assuming a lightsaber can penetrate space marine armour with some ease, but not akin to their decimation of regular storm troopers.

I believe it will go to the space marine 75-80% of the time.

The standard jedi is trained personally by a great mentor, but lacks hard experience. They are tried fighters with a solid combat style but meager force powers, mainly limited to divination.

Every space marine has seen countless battles and is molded into a perfect warrior.

Space marines have a high accuracy, but jedi have powerful reflexes. Still, they would have trouble avoiding bolter fire.

Most jedi would die to bolter fire.
Some would reach close combat and damage the space marine, but not realising that space marines wont die from a stab in the heart, would be killed by the marine in close quarters.
The rest would either manage to disable or avoid the space marine, ensuring victory.

>>46009466
Star Trek ftl is incredibly slow compared to Star Wars or Wh40k. Not to mention that they are heavily out manned

>>46009532

>Assuming a lightsaber can penetrate space marine armour with some ease, but not akin to their decimation of regular storm troopers.

Why not? Plasma goes through Marine armour like hot butter. There is a good reason it's a favored special weapon.

>>46009532

>would be killed by the marine in close quarters.

How? That combat knife of theirs? Vs a weapon that would sheer it in half?

>>46009557

That's the big weakness of ST -vs- 40k if we're going all out -- the sheer bloody-minded size of the fucking thing. In ST, the Federation hasn't even visited a million worlds. The IoM controls a million and contests countless more. There are likely more quadrillions of humans in the IoM than there are sapients in the whole ST era Milky Way. The Federation sends 1000 ships, they're committing the bulk of their entire fleet. The IoM sends 1000 ships, it's Damocles Crusade serious, but laughable next to shit like the Macharian Crusade or a real gathering like Ullanor. ST can haxx its way through individual battles and possibly small crusades, but the outlandish scale of the Imperium will crush it on a long enough timeline.

I think we can all agree that a grey knight with storm bolter and force sword would make short work of any jedi.

>>46009614
They don't need even a combat knife (ironically it's actually the size of a human sword). A Space Marine could spit in the face of Jedi and dissolve his face. Tearing him apart or crushing him with a blow from his fists would also work.

That's the major problem. Jedi are only human, not 8 foot tall superhumans. Both move fast but the Space Marine's close and ranged advantage will kill the Jedi easily.

>>46009499
Those "planet-sized" ships are hardly as impressive as you might expect, and get destroyed relatively often (and sometimes by pathetically small forces). Plasma guns are nothing special, the Gods of 40k are hardly a match compared to the Force.

And, for all its fireworks, 40k still exists in the backwards notion that big explosions equal power, while both Star Wars and Star Trek exceed it in every manner that matters. Communication, speed, even the simple matter of being able to efficiently utilize energy sources.

40k is what a child or a very stupid adult might think is strong, the sort of person who when asked to design a weapon straps a hundred shotguns together and wraps the whole mess in diamond studded duct tape.

>>46009614

A Space Marine can punch through a man in an eyeblink. An elbow, shoulder, or body block bears the force of a cement truck. They literally kick holes in ultra-tough superhuman aliens. They're faster than a striking cobra with the weight of a loaded van. Their armor also does a wonderful job at laughing off most of the blowback of using a .75 caliber rocket launcher at point blank. Getting too close to a Space Marine might actually be worse than keeping your distance.

>>46009723
Space marine spit acid is nowhere near as strong as you think it is. Nor can their fists punch through light sabers.

>>46009723
>>46009747

So the plan is to punch the man with the 'Sever anything sword', precognition and more reach than you (Even at 8ft, a sword has a lot more reach than a fist).

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>Mfw this argument seems to be based on what universe the person likes better.

>>46009747
Cute, but a Jedi is faster thanks to force augmentation, can foresee his opponents moves before his opponent even decides to make them, and has a lightsaber.

It wouldn't even be a close contest. It would almost be like a matador vs. a young bull, except the matador has a lighsaber.

>>46009826
>>46009770
>>46009786

Good news: The movies have done a fantastic job of showing what lightsabers do to arms in the wrong place!

>>46009579
Plasma weapons are more powerful than lightsabers.
They literally melt their targets away. They are also keen to self destruct, which light sabers wont do.

To expand on this, plasma guns are based on hydrogen, light sabers are not.

>>46009614
The jedi stabs the marine, the marine survives. While the jedi expects the marine to fall down and die like all other opponents they face, the marine delivers a single stab or shot, or even punch, and the jedi is out of combat.

>>46009894
>They are also keen to self destruct, which light sabers wont do.

That's not really a point in thier favor.

Both of them have zero issue with all but the toughest of targets in their respective settings. I mean, a Lightsaber carved through the plating of an AT-AT like it was tin-foil and that things the size of a Titan while Plasmaguns have trouble doing reliable damage to a light tank.

>>46004226
jedi are gayass weak psyckers whit a powerweapon and a t-shirt save , most of them were killed by stormtroopers and stormtroopers can't win against teddy bear sized xenos whit stone age technology

>>46009746
Right, now you are just shitposting. You know nothing of any of the settings being discussed. The planet-size ships caused insane amounts of damage with one requiring an entire Space Marine chapter to sacrifice itself (which is a first). What you called 'pathetically small' is enough to take entire systems and wipe out entire armies without effort. A single Space Marine is a god among men.

Plasma Guns with the heat of a star. The fact that Space Marine armour can sometimes withstand this as well as 75 cal explosive round bullets is exceptional.

Gods that can (and have) consume entire galaxies and races for their own gain. The Chaos Gods can win but feed on the emotions of living creatures. This means effectively that it would be stupid for the Chaos Gods to consume our galaxy as it feeds them and that to beat the Chaos Gods, all life must be destroyed as it creates emotions meaning that everyone loses.

You keep calling people children or stupid adults but gives no facts to dispute any of it. It's you who is going for ad hominium and ruining this discussion.

> the sort of person who when asked to design a weapon straps a hundred shotguns together and wraps the whole mess in diamond studded duct tape.

Only the Orks do that and they are a barbaric race (also as a massive joke and parody). The Orks could beat Star Wars and Star Trek as they would just loot the technology from the factions in it. That communications, speed and energy sources (which Warhammer has if you look it up) would all be taken by Orks.

>>46009894
>While the jedi expects the marine to fall down and die

You mean precognitively predicts the marine to stay standing? Or just stabs him right in the head in the first place because there's very little a space marine could do about that?

Space marines are faster than they look, but they're hardly a match against blaster-parrying psychically-augmented precognitive monks with cut-all swords who also happen to have the entire universe rooting for them.

>>46009894

>The jedi stabs the marine, the marine survives.

You know, I recall a lot more 'Cut in half/severed limbs' than I recall impaling with lightsabers. They slash a lot more than they stab.

Obi: Bisected (Save for his vanishing act)
Maul: Bisected
Luke: Limbs carved off
Vader: Multiple limbs carved off.
Duuku: Multiple limbs and head cut off.
Jango Fett: Decapitation!

I'm not sure a Marine would handle being cut in half too well.

>>46009219

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9DZF7Hx2zM

anon, palpatine tier sith can kill you from across the galaxy.

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In singular combat, it really depends on how big of a dick the Jedi wants to be.

>>46009746
>And, for all its fireworks, 40k still exists in the backwards notion that big explosions equal power,
Well they do, its basic phyics.

Logistics and strategy is all well and good, but you still need to actually capable of damaging your opponent too, simply flying circles around them won't make them magically lose.