I managed to convince my group to switch from AD&D to 3.5e,

Just go back and convince them to play 5e

>>44271405
>from AD&D to 3.5e
Why would anyone in their right mind do that?

>>44271468
Because it's gotten to the point where everyone wants to have more options with their characters and have become annoyed by the glaring system flaws in the game, like how only clerics get bonus spell slots from a high wisdom.

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>>44271456
This. Going from AD&D to 5e would be a much less painful transition. Plus, 5e is actually not bad.

>>44271468
This is what I'm wondering, too. AD&D has none of the fiddly system mastery ivory tower design garbage that plagued 3.5 and Pathfinder. The only way to build a bad character in AD&D is to have crappy stats, while in 3.5/PF you can accidentally build a bad character just by taking the wrong feats or picking the wrong combination of race or class, or even by not picking the right class.

>>44271513
Pick up D&D 5e, seriously. Throw 3.5 in the fucking trash where it belongs. If they like AD&D, they'll like (or at least, not completely hate) 5e.

>>44271456
But 5e is so far removed from AD&D it would be impossible to convert.

>>44271513
Convince them to switch to 5e if you can. From what I've heard (I haven't played/read the rulebooks for AD&D, so this is hearsay), 5e is kind of like AD&D in spirit but with a large chunk of 3.5 style sensibilities (cleaned up, of course - feats are more meaningful, skills don't suck, magic is reigned in a fair bit, etc).

>>44271591
I imagine 3.5 is no better in that regard.

Switch them to 4e you humongous faggot. 5e is a clusterfuck of confusing rules and entirely new concepts while 4e is a easy to learn and streamlined version that anyone can pick up within 10 minutes.

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>>44271631

Seriously, go to 5e. Lot of grognards I know love 5e

>edition wars

Wow; it's been a while.

>>44271670
It's always been there.

But come on, 5e is a simpler system and WotC wanted the nostalgia fags. It's easy to see it would be better than 3.5 for old players

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>>44271631

>>44271703
But simple doesn't mean it's good. If I have a system where all you do is flip a coin to see what you do it would be simple, but not at all good.

>>44271631
What confusing rules and entirely new concepts are you talking about, anon? I know the rulebook is laid out in a confusing way (skills don't even have their section marked in the table of contents), but that's not very new - 3.5 was very poorly laid out in its core rulebooks as well (mainly the DMG and Monster Manual, though, IIRC).

Whereas 4e had lots of new stuff like changing Reflex/Fortitude/Will to static defenses (not a bad thing, mind you - I wish 5e kept that), healing surges, powers per day, "add half your level" to lots of things, and probably a few other things I'm forgetting.

>>44271722
5e has plenty of problems but it's still an order of magnitude better than the shitshow that was 3.5

>>44271722
And complexity doesn't mean it's good, either.
But if both are shit, you will see it quicker with the simpler system.
Also, saying that the simpler system isn't good is edition wars, chump.
I didn't said that 3.5e was bad.

>>44271726
Disadvantage (always rolling >4 on any roll) and Advantage (always getting <15 on any roll) are kinda wonky and completely destroy any semblance of balance.

>>44271763
... wut?

>>44271763
What
Did you try it? Because that wasn't my experience. At all.
Dis/Advantage is way more simpler that all the small numerical bonus that you must keep track off.
And it does not, absolutely not, destroy balance.

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>>44271703
OP and his group would be going from AD&D where fighters are at least acceptable, to 5e where non-casters are the second class citizens of the system.

>>44271832
This. I love the mechanic and I like it way the fuck more than piling up all those fucking +1s, +2s, and +3s.

>>44271832
>Small mechanical bonuses are impossible to keep track of
So the d20+modifier is too complicated for your 60 IQ mid to get around? Good thing you're playing 5e so I'll never run into your retarded face at a game.

>>44271851
virt?
Seriously, come on. In 3.5 casters are god and martials town guard.
In 5e martials are strong and balanced. The casters are stronger because of utility, but a figther can totally blow a mage on one turn if he wants to.
You don't know the system at all.

>>44271763
http://anydice.com/program/7434

I don't think that really imbalances the system too much, especially considering it was built around that mechanic.

Also, the average rolls for advantage and disadvantage are 13 and 7 respectively, with a standard deviation of about 4. That's a little better (and worse, for disadvantage) than the average of 10 with a standard deviation of 5, but not game breaking.

>>44271878
You sound like the kind of person who thinks THAC0 was a good idea and mocks people who don't like it.

>>44271878
Yeah, you're virt or his cousin.
d20+ 6 or 7 different modifier make you book keep and it's boring. It feels cheap.
Go to /pfg/ if you want edition wars with 3.5 and call people retard.

>>44271878
The less numbers you have to add together, the simpler the mechanic is. It's much simpler to roll 2d20, pick the higher number, and then add your modifier than it is to roll 1d20, add your modifier, and then add your second modifier.

>>44271909
Seriously. They got rid of THAC0 in 3e for a reason and I'm glad it will never come back.

>>44271919
>6 or 7 different modifiers
At least this system is designed around people being able to add simple things together. Instead 5e was designed to be played by retards with everything having the same exact modifier that only changes 6 times from levels 1 to 20 so you have time to adjust to remember that your character can hit a little more often. God I wish you faggots never came and ruined D&D with your "But it's too hard to remember 3+4=7"

>>44271978
>Seriously. They got rid of THAC0 in 3e for a reason and I'm glad it will never come back.
I love this fact and the fact that no other games have used a mechanic like THAC0 ever since because they all know how terrible an idea it was. I feel like that stings grogs the most.

>>44272007
I wish you would put on a tripcode so I could filter you.

>>44271995
>you don't like it because you're a retard!
go away virt
3.5 system has flaws. 5e has flaws too. But 5e is surely better for people coming from AD&D

It's not just that they got rid of a ton of different modifiers, because those can actually come up in play depending (cover, fighting styles, spells, etc.).

It's more important that they got rid of typed bonuses and bonus stacking rules. That shit in 3.PF is the most absurd garbage.

Okay back ON TOPIC. How should OP convince his group that stats are way more important in 5e/3.5e/whateverthefuck than AD&D so they'll remake their stat lines using point buy?

>>44272029
Even most OSR games - made specifically to recapture the old school feel of AD&D - don't use THAC0.

An extremely common house rule turned THAC0 into something very similar to the high BAB vs high AC system that's present in 3e and on.

>>44272057
Well, in 5e you can't multiclass if you don't have the stat requirement. That can be a big deal.
Magic item with bonus on stats are rare and you can't just buy them. You gain only five ASI, you must choose between a +2 ability score or a feat so you can't raise all your bad stats later.
Mod are very important on skills since you're either proficient or not, with no added modifiers.
Same with weapon attack, spell DC and the like. Can't augment them with an item or magic most of the time. Got to have high mod to raise them.

>>44271405

That centaur will break its spine the first time it tries lancing someone. It only works for humans because the knight can absorb the impact by moving back in the saddle.

>>44272057
For 5e, the majority of your accuracy comes from your ability scores - spellcasters also need high ability scores in their relevent mental stat to have accurate spells. Melee characters don't get bonus damage unless they have high scores. Multiclassing also requires you to have stats above a certain level.

For 3.5, tell them lots of feats have ability score requirements and that spellcasters can't cast spells of a certain level unless they have X amount of their casting stat. A 16 Int wizard may be awesome in AD&D, but in 3.5 that means you can't cast or learn spells above level 6 - ever.

I thought virtualoptim got banned.


Is he back?

>>44272119
It's spine is perfectly fine thanks to hereditary spine magic. Now shut up and take your turn.

>>44272135
>>44272057

3.5 was intentionaly designed to have character options that were shitty and some others that were good.

If you're really going to 3.5, OP, be careful about that.

>>44272206
This is exactly why I strongly suggest OP skip 3.5 entirely and just go for 5e. Sure, 5e suffers from that too, but not nearly as badly as in 3.5, which if I'm remembering right was deliberately designed that way: Some options are outright and intentionally weaker than other options, and not by accident.

>>44272248

5e has its flaws, but the options are roughly balanced when you play them. The worse ones are still decent, while the best ones still can't overshadow the others

>>44272334
I haven't played 5e for more than a few levels and this is what it seems like. Still, some options seem crappy on paper, like beastmaster ranger. At least 5e is way more homebrew-friendly than 3.5 so I can feel free to change stuff without fearing that its delicate house of cards balance will absolutely collapse.

You know, unlike 3.5

5e has problems and is shittier than 4e but if you're going to convert to something modern, convert to that.

Friends don't let friends play 3.5e, unless you have access to a bunch of sourcebooks so you can effectively restrict tiers.

>>44272358
Even crapp options, like beastmaster ranger and Way of the 4 elements monk, can be good or at least useful in a party. A beginner can pick anything and be good. There is no real trap.

>>44272375
That's a huge relief to hear after having burned out on Pathfinder. That fucking game nearly made me burn out on tabletop RPGs entirely, so 5e felt like a breath of fresh air after two years of that garbage.

This thread fills me with joy.
"5e may not be great, but nobody in their right mind would switch TO 3.5e" is a good sentiment to be universal.

>>44272466
My DM told me that my monk will be good if we switched to PF.
I was sad.

5e will save your mental health

>>44271405
>How should I convince my group that stats mean a whole lot more in 3.5 and we should re-stat our characters using point buy?
Is what we were supposed to discuss. Not dumbass edition wars.

>>44271763
It is exactly one point more than the standard +2 bonuses of earlier editions. All you do is roll twice and pick the higher, how is that even remotely a problem?

>>44272547
Well, he was making a huge mistake.
We just wanted him to avoid it.

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>>44272547
And the thread consensus seems to be that switching to 3.5 at all is a bad idea, with the additional suggestion that 5e is a better option.

Sorry if we didn't provide a satisfactory answer, but that's the answer you got.

>>44272582
OP here. None of us have the physical books for 5e, only hand-me-down 3.5e books and modules.

>>44272613
https://mega.nz/#F!UVkTnT5b!FJ34UZ98BMY2mEtexenS7g
Merry Christmas

>>44272613
You can find the PDF on the 5e general.
If you can't play with PDF and you can't print it, or use small sheets to remember basic rules, well, I'm sorry for you.
I hope you still have a fun game

>>44271513
>annoyed by the glaring system flaws in the game
So you wanted to go to a system with even more flaws? You're retarded.

>>44272516
>My DM told me that my monk will be good if we switched to PF.


...That's just cruel.

>>44272613
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/cszft3b7x3ypm/Documents
For if mega.nz doesn't work for you

>>44272683
He didn't know. He truly believed it. Everyone told him that PF was "balanced"

>>44271763
What?

Are you feeling OK?

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>>44272715
This is the lie Paizo told to all of us. I bought into the hype myself back in 2010-2011 and thought for sure PF would fix all the problems I had with 3.5. Martials would be fun to play again and would be able to make meaningful contributions! Fighters and monks would be good! No more christmas tree characters laden with dozens of magic items! A robust combat maneuver system that provided a useful alternative to standing in one spot and full attacking! An end to save-or-die rocket tag at high levels!

Except none of those things actually got fixed. All the problems are still there. There are also entirely new sets of problems unique to PF.

Fuck you, Paizo.

Also, Sean K. Reynolds, I see your fucking name in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide credits. Get the fuck out of my fucking hobby you piece of shit. You're probably the reason why the fighter and monk archetypes in that book are bad. I fucking hate you.

>>44272745
Nope because I rolled a character in D&D today and got a 15 as the highest stat while someone sitting directly across from me is rocking a cleric with 2 17's in his most needed stats and nothing below a 13 in anything else. I'm pissed.

>>44271405
Convince them to switch back, Ad&d is more fun.

>>44272813

Standard stat array or point buy are better, unless you enjoy risk/playing with a random character

>>44272847
Well, I think OP means that they want to more with their characters within the system without having to slap on a homebrew skill system into it.

>>44272883
It kinda sucks since everyone in my group except me believes that rolling is the only character generation method allowed. Also I'm pretty sure that one guy is bumping his rolls on his dice app.

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>>44272795

But, anon, martial characters must be realistic.


More seriously, at least Reynolds can be reasonable once in a while, even if he still doesn't understand the flaws in his designs. Paizo's work certainly didn't improve after he got kicked out/left.

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>>44271631

This suggestion is not completely stupid, however it's phrased in the stupidest way possible.

>>44272939
>But, anon, martial characters must be realistic.

Post the angriest reaction image you have. I don't have any that properly encapsulates how angry that statement makes me.

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>>44272992
>Post the angriest reaction image you have. I don't have any that properly encapsulates how angry that statement makes me.

I'm sincerely sorry to have written it, but this attitud pisses me off too, so I had to.

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>>44273044

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>>44271405
Here's the simple answer to your actual question, rather than this edition wars shit: point out that stats below 15 but above 8 are no longer completely irrelevant and meaningless. Point out that bonuses based on stats are now laid out completely differently.

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>>44273095

>>44273109
>Point out that bonuses based on stats are now laid out completely differently.
And point out that bonuses are universal now. Having a 14 in Strength gives +2 to something, and having a 14 in Intelligence also gives +2 to something. No special rules for individual stats (except for bonus spells, but fuck magic)

>>44273145
Don't wizards in AD&D get shafted because they don't get bonus slots for any level of wisdom or intelligence?

>>44273166
They are more like glass cannons instead of reality cracking gods that walk the earth.

>>44273166
Something like that, yeah. I remember playing a level 1 wizard and being able to cast a whopping ONE spell per day. Good times.

>>44273231

>reality cracking gods that walk the earth.

Can't all be druids

>>44271405
>AD&D to 3.5e

5e, I could understand. PF, I could sort of understand. Hell, 4e, I could understand.

But what sort of ass-backwards logic takes you from AD&D to 3.5e?

>>44273396
He doesn't have books for the other editions and I'm guessing the rest of the group doesn't feel like dropping $50 on paperback copies of the books.

>>44271405
Instead of 3.5e, consider the following options:

>5e
>a retroclone
>PF (if you're dead set on 3.5)

>>44273565
At least PF has the advantage of having all of their stuff on an easily-accessible website for free

>>44273594
PF does clean up a few things, though it manages to shit on 3.5's good martial things (like Power Attack) anyways.

The SRD is the main reason that I suggest it at all.

The only benefit Pathfinder has is that the SRD lets you play a more balanced game, because instead of being stuck with the Fighter and Monk, you can use the actually decent Path of War characters.

Likewise, you can disallow the Cleric and Druid and allow the the Witch and Magus.

If you're not willing to open up the game like that, then play 4e or 5e, not 3e.

>>44273432
>What is the internet

He browses 4chan, so I'm assuming he's at least vaguely knowledgeable in methods of obtaining digital material.

>>44271405
Didn't read thread, but holy shit your games sound awful
>3.5
>point buy
>carrying the same characters to a new system
>AT LOW LEVEL

>>44274236
>Better than AD&D and pathfinder is probably what he means
>Better than one guy with nothing above a 12 and another with nothing under a 12
>The conversion can and has been made with many successes
>Not every game needs to be epic level to be fun.

>>44271405
>I managed to convince my group to switch from AD&D to 3.5e
Begone foul demon and take your evil elsewhere!

>>44274494
Really wasn't hard to when I pointed out that there was a thing called skills, feats, and no preset racial relations.

>>44274515
The thing is, feats were meant to be "cool things even mundanes can do" but ended up being "shitty +2 bonuses and a couple of little cool things".

If you actually want martial characters doing cool things you want 4e.

If you want an actual sequel to AD&D then just play Hackmaster

>>44271546
5e ihas pathetic character customization options. His group specifically said they wanted MORE options, not less. As long as OP's group isn't a bunch of fagtard power gamers it'll be fine.

>>44274695
5e would provide more options than AD&D, but not as many as 3.5. However, 5e's options don't consist of
>good option
>great option
>garbage
>garbage
>garbage
>garbage
>garbage
So I'm recommending 5e instead.

>>44271621
>feats more meaningful
You mean all 10 of them?
>skills don't suck
What? They have a handful left and my group's run into plenty of situations where the skill list doesn't even cover a circumstantial roll.
>magic is reigned in
Sure, but the imbalance is now heavily weighed towards martials (bear totem anyone?)

The only reason to even play 5E is if you are a casual who doesn't want to actually put any effort into building a character and you'd rather the system basically did it for you.

That being said 5E is great for one shots. Otherwise meh - tactically limited, poor customization and over-simplification.

>>44271631
I hated 4th edition but I'd rather play it than the hot mess that is 5E

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>>44274767

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>>44273095
Great file name. Saved.

>>44274739
>dur hur all feats and options in 3.5 are meant for all campaigns

>>44274515
3.5's skill system is significantly worse than 2E's NWP system.

Unless you're a spellcaster, you're better off without the feat system. It's trash.

>>44274913
Fuck off with your ivory tower game design bullshit.

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>>44274913
I'm not convinced that you're actually trying to defend 3.5. I think you're just being contrary for its own sake.

have you considered not playing d&d?

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>>44275076

>>44275076
He's right. It's weird how idiots keep playing DnD, never trying something else.
Do you only eat food from McDonald's because that was the first restaurant you ever ate at?

Do you only read fantasy novels because you read Harry Potter when you were young?

>>44271763
>Disadvantage (always rolling >4 on any roll) and Advantage (always getting <15 on any roll)
What the fuck?

>>44275302
It's even weirder how people who don't like D&D assume that the people who do like it just don't know any better.

Do you really believe that? Because, if you do, I can tell you right now that your perspective is so thoroughly tainted by your opinions, that you don't have the right to engage in a conversation about these games since you are incapable of seeing things from anyone's perspective except your own.

>>44271405
>I managed to convince my group to switch from AD&D to 3.5e
Reading this sentence actually caused me physical pain.

>>44275099
https://youtu.be/1XVwxX0pcSI

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>>44274767
>10 feats
As opposed to the 10,000 in 3.5, only 12 of which (each from a different splatbook) are useful to your character?

>skills
Skill and tool proficiency is pretty easy in 5e. It hearkens back to the "kit" system

>Imbalance is not heavily weighted toward martials
Ok, so its clear you haven't played 5e at all. Casters are still more powerful, but the field is a lot narrower. Martials get some neat toys, but they still can't create their own demiplanes.

>No effort in character building
Did Mearls scare you as a child? There are tons of options in character creation. They just removed most of the "trap" options- even an unoptimized race/class combo is playable, but min-maxers still have room to optimize. Thats not a fault, its an improvement.

>>44271763
>>44271631

...I don't even LIKE 5e (I personally concider it a step back towards 3.5 from 4e's changes and killed the chance of a 4.5e) and that's stupid as hell way to describe 5e.

>>44274695
Allow multi-classing, multi-pathing and more than one character per player. That ought to keep you busy.

>>44272795
Yeah, that's why I consider Pathfinder the worst RPG ever too.

Not because it is actually the worst in practice, but because they knew full well what the horrifying flaws of 3.5 were and they actively chose to fix none of them.

They knew they were making a shitty game and kept going anyway, they have no excuse

>>44272795
I wouldn't be surprised if SKR made Banneret fighter and Mastermind rogue, since they both violate some of 5e's stated design rules.

The monk archetypes are fine, though.

>>44271722
5e is waaaay less unbalanced than 3.5, that alone makes 5e a better game.

>>44271405
>I managed to convince my group to switch from AD&D to a completely unbalanced ivory tower mess
Good for you, you should run for politics you seem to have powerful persuasion skills

>>44272795
>Except none of those things actually got fixed. All the problems are still there
They actually are worse, now combat maneuvers are worse than ever, save or die appears even sooner and monks are even shittier thanks to no way of improving unarmed damage (improved natural strike doesn't work with unarmed strikes in PF).

Also it's even more caster supremacy game because anything slightly good a martial gets casters get it even better in archetypes.

Also the website is full of shills and brainwashed boytoys that don't have any constructive thought and you get banned even for asking the most sincere and logical questions like "why imp natural strike doesn't work with unarmed attacks".

>>44278663
>Casters are still more powerful, but the field is a lot narrower. Martials get some neat toys, but they still can't create their own demiplanes.


Yes and no. Casters have neat tricks and options, but they will have to rely on others characters to help nearly all the time in order to win.

>>44279384
I wouldn't be surprised if SKR made Banneret fighter and Mastermind rogue, since they both violate some of 5e's stated design rules.

What do they do ?

>>44280131
>Yes and no. Casters have neat tricks and options, but they will have to rely on others characters to help nearly all the time in order to win.

Unless of course they are the type of casters that don't.

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>>44280107
>Also it's even more caster supremacy game because anything slightly good a martial gets casters get it even better in archetypes.

>tfw a player tells you it's ok for the casters to be more powerful, because there is less casters than martials in the setting

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>>44272939
>That pic
That dude is fucking cancer

>>44280143

>Unless of course they are the type of casters that don't.

...Don't think that type exist. Some circumstances would allow a caster to pull it off, but they'd get screwed by another situation.

>>44280156

To be 100% fair, Paizo had him tell this kind of bullshit even if he didn't think it was right.

He's barely better on his own, but he showed he could be reasonable once in a while.

Then you have the "I tried to do it, and I couldn't, therefore martials can't either" guy

>>44274811

Thank you

>>44280174
>...Don't think that type exist.

You'd be wrong then.

>Some circumstances would allow a caster to pull it off, but they'd get screwed by another situation.

Didn't say they are unscrewable, just that they can cover pretty much everything they want. There's no unique thing only non-caster classes can do.

>>44272795
>>44272939
SKR was hired for lore, apparently. He don't do game design. I hope it will stay that way.

>>44280347

There was the time when, after he got out of Paizo, he tried to make his own RPG.

By all the gods and their angels, this really showed he didn't learn anything

>>44271405
honestly if your having trouble there just let them play with rolled stats for a while they will come around

>>44278663
>As opposed to the 10,000 in 3.5, only 12 of which (each from a different splatbook) are useful to your character?
not every feat is good for every character anon thats the whole fucking point

>>44272795
You could've just played 4e

>>44280756

The problem is that the design team purposedly made a certain number of feats that weren't good for anyone.

>>44280756
>not every feat is good for every character
And most feats aren't good for absolutely anyone

>>44271405
Don't play 3.anything. Either stick with AD&D, or play 4e, 5e, or 13th age.

>>44280193
This really.

SKR was still a fucking idiot, but Buhlman had him basically be the anti marital mouthpiece for Paizo.

After SKR left, even he started mentioning how fucked up some of the marital needs were.

Play Fantasy Craft

>>44285086
Not OP, but Fantasy Craft looks like a very good game in my opinion (though it's very, very crunchy).

>>44285243
Honestly the crunch seems intimidating at first, but the concepts all blend together well. A little bit of learning is worth it for a significantly better system.
In fact, just the other day, my martial character did something significant.

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>>44285297
>In fact, just the other day, my martial character did something significant.
Absolutely shocking.

>>44285363
Pretty crazy, right? Orcas make great throwing weapons.

>>44271405
>I managed to convince my group to switch from AD&D to 3.5e

I just do not understand why you would do this. I do not understand why they would go along with it.

5e I can see and understand, but 3...