Don't you hate it when DMs pull this shit? "Oh, this

>>44169687
why wouldn't there be magic guns? people cast magic. they can enchant things to make them do magic when they aren't around to do magic themselves. it can do all the functional things of an exploding shell with none of the chemistry. do you actually have any real arguments against a fantasy setting having an earlier development of guns relative to a real world time line?

Guns in fantasy are great, except when introduced like this.

I mean, it was probably meant as the "big shocking reveal", but if you're going to do that, have someone show up to a siege with a cannon brigade. Late medieval cannons were scary as hell.

This comic is weird, because it's like the entire goal is to make you dislike every person in it, and they're succeeding triumphantly.

>>44169723
When you're in a world where a crossbow is considered the height of weapons technology, making a magical tube that fires lead pellets at a thousand feet a second seems like a total waste when you can just make a wand of magic missile.

>it's an early medieval tech level
If its standard D&D, you have full plate.
If you have full plate, you're looking at early 15th century.
If it's early 15th century, you have firearms, though they won't be super common.

>>44169687
table titans ain't early medieval.

>>44169825
This. Behead all those that claim guns and knights didn't coexist.

>>44169763
In before you want to show that pesky caster who's boss but don't understand runes and shite.
A universe where tech advances to put you on par with casters.

Why would you be upset? Most times guns are introduced the designers give them barely better stats then bows and make them misfire all the fucking time

>>44170323
It's probably just one more thing onto the bullshit pike. The DM keeps forgetting to tell them important worldbuilding facts until he mentions them in game, and they didn't get to build their characters in the first place.

>>44169825
>>44170273
And by the late 15th century, roughly one in every four soldiers in the Black Army under King Matthias Corvinus of Hungary carried an arquebus.

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I always liked the idea of a high-tech magic alternative. The vast bulk of the world is your typical medival setting, but "dwarves" and "elves" are actually just visiting aliens, or post-human space-faring types visiting a museum world.

So magic is out the window, but high-technology largely replaces it. The elves and dwarves can't bring back the dead, but they can insert a previous mind-uploaded version into a vat-grown body. Floating eyeballs can zoom out and scry on people, because it's a drone. A teleportation pad isn't instantaneous and required you to enter a metal box, and only goes certain places, because it's an elevator. A wand of killIt makes a large noise, throws out some stuff and does essentially the same thing as a shotgun, because it IS a shotgun.

The locals don't know any of it. So you say that a odd looking elf wearing magical robes consults her mystic tome, it's really just a spacer in spandex looking something up in her ipad. Same thing, different perspective.

So you play the game with just one or two players being "in the know". The rest think they're literally magical elves.

>>44169687
I'm fine if they're souped up flintlocks. Basically single-shot weapons with incredibly high reload times.

>>44170418
Players hunt down rogue "wizards" that are trying to subvert the museum rules and educate the masses or are just playing god-king amoung the apes.


(Starting) Gear: Magical equivalent
Nylon, spandex, etc Strangely dressed, not robes, but odd
Laptop magically glowing book
Single-shot handgun (40 rounds) Wand of Kill It!
3 sticks of dynamite Fireball
Firecrackers
Lighter Create flame
Binoculars Mage-sight?
Taser Stun/shocking hand
Super-magnet hold-person, entangle, but only works on those with metal armor.
Goo-bomb Well, this IS a tangle-foot bag essentially
Water purifier Duh!
Giger-counter Detect "magic"
Some sensors and software to make a polygraph test: Zone of truth
Night-vision goggles Dark vision
Motion sensor Alarm
Small wireless camera Local Scrying
Radio to command for:
Satellite images Scrying abroad
Orbital laser cannon Searing light, lighting,
Weather Forecast Uh, forecast?
Laser tagging a target for a drone to fire a hellfire at: Fireball.

A roving base platform of a space elevator is the way wizards get up to the orbiting HQ. It's location is hidden and very protected. You can't actually see the strand unless you're fairly close.

>>44169687
I rather shamelessly steal the concept and fluff of the Black Powder Rebellion from Mage Knight for every fantasy game I run. Bullets are just another ranged projectile, their golems were built with a diminished amount of magic and require coal to run, they have less "brass gears & glass tubes for the lol" and more "iron plates & leather straps for our freedom" aesthetic.

Best thing about guns were that they ignored many magical defenses, because the defense wasn't designed to counter them. Yes, I know, this is awful of a GM, but I had to make black powder guns, with their slow reload speed and dubious accuracy, special and effective somehow. Since both bows and crossbows could out DPS an early handgun, I just made guns ignore great swaths of AC. Magical armor class bonus? Ignored. 50% deflection chance? Ignored. Immune to missiles? Yeah, that gets ignored.

I was young and dumb, but I tried anyway.

In PF and 5e and GURPS I'm a lot more likely to just use regular gun rules.

>>44169763
I'm more mad at how inaccurate you are with bullet physics.

>>44170418
>>44170468
Welp, thanks for my next campaign setting.

>>44169687
First mentions of firearms in Europe come from XIV cenury. By XV century they were quite common. You were way more likely to encounter a gun than a full plate armor in medieval Europe. Guns existing in a fantasy setting should be a given, not a surprise.

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>>44169687
Given how guns were used through most of the medieval era why exactly are they such a taboo in fantasy settings? Are they just "too real" for modern audiences that never saw a real sword in their lives but are afraid of gun violence?

>>44170553
>Guns existing in a fantasy setting should be a given, not a surprise.
Why not magic-based computers with wizards exchanting hot lesbian sorcerer porn over the SCRYnet? Necromancers teaching skeletons sempaphore to act as general computers or message relay towers? Air-traffic controllers using telephathy to direct the flying whale-traffic, which is primarily used by the heads of powerful wizarding university that go by the name Chief Enchanting Officer.

Really, if the magic exists, none of this should come as a surprise.

>>44169687
Another anon brought it up, but it's a good point. Why ARE guns a thing when you have wands and rings of magic missile, acid arrow, fireball, and all that other fun stuff?

>>44170818
Guns are probably cheaper, easier to mass produce and don't require any special knowledge to use?

>>44170651
>>44170553
Laughable bait.

The medieval era was 500AD to 1500AD. It pretty much ended with the invention of firearms and the renaissance.

It's the same reason you don't see point-defense systems in games set during WWII.

>>44170843
>easier to mass produce
Remember that mass production wasn't a think until about the civil war. Even during the revolutionary war, all those guns were made piecemeal. The whole concept of interchangeable parts was a big deal.

Cottage industry vs factories.

>>44170851
Yeah, because 'standard fantasy setting' are totally based on early medieval era. Face it, what we see as fantasy has more to do with late medieval/early renaissance then with the earlier periods. Absence of guns in them is retarded.

Fuck off with this limp-dick geek-chic semi-SJW garbage bullshit webcomic.

It fucking sucks, it isn't funny, it isn't good TTRPG or fantasy, it's just shit. Stop.

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>>44170818
>Why ARE guns a thing when you have wands and rings of magic missile, acid arrow, fireball, and all that other fun stuff?
1. Cheaper
2. Reduce power of spellcaster-artisans

>>44169687
There is a town in my fantasy setting, in which you could do a Shadowrun campain

Fight me.

>>44170877
Still, a small manufacturer could chug out guns at a rate way beyond what could be theoretically achievable for a wizard producing wands.

>>44170651
>Given how guns were used through most of the medieval era why exactly are they such a taboo in fantasy settings? Are they just "too real" for modern audiences that never saw a real sword in their lives but are afraid of gun violence?

Because of the simplified way people in the US look at history.

1) Prehistoric era- fire, wheel, and wooly mammoths. Ended with the rise of Egypt, and true civilization.

2) Bible/Egyptian/Greek/Roman era- lots of gods and myths. Ended with the fall of Rome

3) Medival era- Vikings, knights, princess and crusades. Ended when Columbus discovered America.

4) Colonial era- Explorers, European colonies in the Americas, Asia, and Africa, US Revolution and the US Civil War. Ended when the west was won.

5) Modern era- WWI to now. Planes, trains, and automobiles, electricity, machineguns, and the like.

In this model, guns didn't exist until the Colonial era, as they were what allowed the Europeans to kill all the natives, who were still relying on bows and melee weapons.

>>44169687

Goddamnit.

The comic started off rather fun and I hoped for it evolving into something much more engaging than "annoying people having adventures it's hard to care about".

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Is pure alcohol available in your campaigns? Remember that true distillation became a thing in Europe roughly at the same time as guns.

>>44170894
>Yeah, because 'standard fantasy setting' are totally based on early medieval era.
Yeah. See: Tolkein.
That's about as standard fantasy as you get.

> Face it, what we see as fantasy has more to do with late medieval/early renaissance then with the earlier periods.
Well that's interesting.
I'd love to hear more arguments for why fantasy is more like the early renaissance.

Is it because wizards are actually super-tech chemists and shit?
You know, ala >>44170418

>>44171003

>Yeah. See: Tolkein.
>That's about as standard fantasy as you get.

Not him, but in Tolkien, there are exactly 0 mentions of plate armor. EVERYONE is in mail.

>>44170925
Ok.... let me just ask you what you think the process is for making this thing. And if you don't know, that's PERFECT. Just like a medieval blacksmith being told to replicate this crazy contraption they captured on the battlefield.

You've got a forge, a workshop, some blocks of iron and coke.

How do you make a metal hollow tube with one end sealed and one end open?

The absolute crudest way to make a gun- I don't have the infographic on hand, sorry- is to take a metal pipe, heat one end until it can be shaped, and hammer it flat. Looks like a duck bill, mostly sealed end. Add a hole (I'm not sure how you do it, sorry, but it's definitely been done) to touch off the powder, attach it to a wood stock so you can aim. It's dangerous and slow, but that's the absolute simplest way.

>>44171003
>Yeah. See: Tolkein.
>That's about as standard fantasy as you get.

DnD, PF et.al. have long since moved far away from Tolkien, if they were ever very close.

Tolkien by today's standards is low magic Viking age fantasy. Rohan in particular being "what if Anglo-Saxon England was big on horses?"

>>44171104
Meant for >>44171057. I'm not saying a medieval blacksmith will do it exactly that way, but by all means it should be possible to do. If you can make a tube, you can make a closed tube. If you can make a hole in the tube as well, you're golden for at least one shot that probably risks your life and limb.

>>44170916
>>44170843
Wands can be used by a standard action and are made so that non-magical users can just point and use an activation phrase or gesture.

A light pistol does 2d6 damage, costs 150 gold, and each round of ammunition costs 20 gold. Each gun carries six rounds, crits for x3 on a 19 or 20, and has a range of 40'. Fifty rounds would costs 1,000 gold.

A light rifle costs 250 gold, does 2d8 damage, crits for x3 on an 18-20, has a range of 120', and carries five rounds. Each round costs 50g. 50 rounds would cost 2,500 gold.

A wand of Magic Missile, as done by a level 3 spellcaster, costs 2,250 gold. It holds fifty charges, and each charge spits out two missiles, which can hit the same target or two different targets for 1d4+1 each, but never misses.The range for that specific wand would be 130'.

So, while fifty rounds and a light pistol would be cheaper than the wand, it's also less accurate, has a lower range, and, on average, will do less damage than the fifty-charge wand that spits out two Magic Missiles per shot. A light rifle would do more damage, has almost as much range, but is actually more expensive in the long run and is still less accurate.

>>44171057
Make it so that one end has a door, like old cannons?

>>44169763
>yfw magic keeps evolving as do technology
>yfw when you see a contrip to match a shotgun

>>44171143
>So, while fifty rounds and a light pistol would be cheaper than the wand, it's also less accurate, has a lower range, and, on average, will do less damage than the fifty-charge wand that spits out two Magic Missiles per shot. A light rifle would do more damage, has almost as much range, but is actually more expensive in the long run and is still less accurate.

More importantly, the pistol can be used by a much higher percentage of your soldiers than the wand of magic missile.

And the best thing? You can have BOTH in your forces.

>>44170516
If you assume that magic is complex and intricate instead of just a wheezy dweeb triumphantly shouting FUCK U at jocks who bullied him in high school, magical protections doing nothing against attacks they weren't designed to protect from makes sense. Deflect Normal Missiles doesn't deflect oxygen, or when someone hands you a healing potion, right? It's been made to block 'normal missiles' exclusively... by an elf from 2800 years ago, who didn't have muskets and cannons in mind when he defined 'normal missiles'.

>>44171057
>- is to take a metal pipe,
You don't HAVE a metal pipe.
You have some blocks of iron and coke.

No shit sherlock, a gun is a metal pipe with one end closed.

NOW HOW DO YOU MAKE ONE OF THOSE?


>Add a hole (I'm not sure how you do it, sorry, but it's definitely been done)
(Yeah, that's a drill bit. Niche tool, but used even back then. A punch would be more common and would also probably work)

>>44171189
> More importantly, the pistol can be used by a much higher percentage of your soldiers than the wand of magic missile.

Like I said,

>Wands can be used by a standard action and are made so that non-magical users can just point and use an activation phrase or gesture.

If you want your soldiers to use wands, hand it to them and just tell them how to activate it. It's a literal swish and flick or activation phrase, they don't require the 'Use Magic Item' skill.

>>44171198
The 'deflect normal missiles' stuff like Shield would still work, because bullets and cannonballs aren't functionally different from the bullets used by slings or the balls slung by siege weaponry like trebuchets and catapults.

>But they're going fast!

So? It's still a plain old ball of metal.

>>44171200
Take a sheet of metal. Heat it until it's malleable and slowly beat it around a wooden rod so that it forms a pipe. Then slide the rod out and flatten one end.

>>44171219
No no no, it's "killeOUsa" not "Killiusa". Do it right or you're getting busted down to pikeman!

>>44171200
>Random Anon can't build a gun.
>Definite proof fantasy settings shouldn't have a gun.
>And that guns IRL are a myth.

>>44171219

Guns can be wielded by a higher percentage because you can potentially make a lot more. And unlike wands, once a gun is made, it doesn't "die" after 50 shots and require you to make a new one, so their numbers can grow at a greater exponential rate.

>>44171254
(Do not point seam towards crotch while firing)

>>44171276
>it doesn't "die" after 50 shots and require you to make a new one,
Son, I think you need to take a moment to appreciate the high standards of manufacturing and quality that goes into the EVERYTHING you use on a daily basis.

I run a setting where the aristocrating wizard community activly shuts down and outlaws tinkerers to stop the peasents from gaining fire power.

Guns are around but rare and hated world wide due to propaganda. Also, gunpowder just dosnt work the same on some worlds. You need other, rarer ingredients. Its not far fetched to say that causing something to launch at your enemies at high speed hasnt been thought of before. I mean, look at actual history.

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>>44169687
>early medieval tech
>implying there actually are games that are early medieval tech
>implying medieval fantasy isn't shit
>not having technology in your setting
>not having melee weapons coexist with guns because magic/rule of cool/convenience of use/some people are just that superhuman
>not going full dieselpunk on your setting

step up, senpai.

>>44171276
No, but when you're talking about medieval guns, which basically shoved a lump of metal in front of a bunch of black powder, you're going to see a lot more guns explode in people's hands.

They may theoretically last longer, since their charges won't run out (actually, can't you just recharge a wand?) but in practice? You're going to have to worry about wear and tear a lot more with a gun than you will a wand. Wands won't take your hand off if there's still an ember in the chamber when you're reloading.

>>44171257
Killeonorthkorea!

I don't see the problem. They're literally shittier wands that require more skill to use and shoot less dangerous things out of them.

ABLUBLUBLU MY IMMERSION

>>44171243
>bullets and cannonballs aren't functionally different from
How do you know? What makes you think magic spells are non-specific to that degree, or that having that effect at that spell level wasn't achieved by cutting corners? It's fucking magic. Maybe Tenser assumed it's fine for n to be a two-digit integer because what the fuck can fly faster than an arrow and not be magical.

>>44169825
Or 300 B.C.

>>44171143
>50 g per bullet.
Woah, that is some serious price inflation the hombre. A "bullet" is a few ounces of easy chemicals, a bit of wadding, and a ball of metal. Now, I'm not arguing for the to cost a realistic amount, but 50g per shot is silly expensive. 50g is cost prohibitive.
...
You just picked that amount to make wands a viable option, didn't you?

>>44171333
>Fantasy WW2
>Dwarves in Spitfires, with the wings and guns covered in ritual runes
>Elves in magically-powered Tiger tanks with pintle-mounted staves of Fireball
>Orcs churning out T-34s when the battle is raging just outside the factory doors
>Drow taking a drink of sake before stepping into their Zeroes, loaded to the brim with alchemist's fire
>Some crazy sonofabitch running around with a bow and claymore when everyone else is carrying guns or mass-produced magic staves

>>44171471
>what the fuck can fly faster than an arrow and not be magical

Peregrine falcons.

Whats wrong with just calling them "strong telekinetic wands"? Like any spell, the reagents are stone/metal and some reactive powders. Its just a prepared scroll in a different form

>>44170651
Nerds, even gun-nerds generally are totally unaware of what a leap minne balls and smokeless powder were, so they figure guns had always been as powerful as that.

>>44171489
I pulled it off of http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Firearms_and_Other_Equipment_%28Herregor_Supplement%29, actually.
>>44171471
Crossbow bolts and ballista bolts.

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Modern fantasy is not really influenced by medieval history. It's influenced by XIX century nerds being influenced by late medieval depictions of early medieval and ancient stories. Late medieval art has Alexander the Great and King Arthur in full plate because this is what artist knew as "an armor" at the time. He did know that they didn't had guns at the time so he didn't draw them even if his contemporary soldiers did use them. This is why today we have fantasy warriors in full plate but without guns.

>>44169687

Just replace the guns with flutes that work as wands with Power Word: Kill on them.

>>44169687
Guns have been in D&D since AD&D. As I recall, only Gygax was particularly against them, despite the fact they fit with the tech level.

Forgotten Realms even had a whole chapter of the corebook about firearms in the realms, and how their spread will influence and change the way wars are fought.

This was later retconned out due to editorial mandate.

>>44171497
>Reskinning WW2
>Not making your own world

you step up too.

>>44171057
Sean K. Reynolds detected

>>44171526
Ahh. Then THEY went out of their way to make wands competitive.

For the price of each 1 bullet, you could buy 1,000 arrows. And hire an Archer proficient in the multishot chain of feats to get three or more of them down range each turn. Hell, it would probably be cheaper than either option to hire a NPC Archer, give him 1,000 arrows, and let him plink away.

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>>44169687
I like to think of my settings as being somewhat the equivalent of Qing China - it wasn't a bad dynasty, but it was far more traditional and the Manchu rulers overall preferred bows and a traditional banner system to more conventional armies or the technological progress in the way of guns that the Ming had developed.

It's a gross simplification of something that's probably far more complicated than that, applied to a fantasy world with far more variables than that, but it kind of makes sense.

>>44171057
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HNaB7l2GQk

With a good metalworker, you can make a decent gun even if you've never seen one before. They might not do it right because they don't really know about guns, but it'll fire.

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>nerfing guns or making them one-hit kill monstrosities
>not getting rid of the notion that HP are "meat points"
ishiggy

>>44171334

But when you can make several more guns for each wand, even if a quarter explode on their first shot, another quarter after 25, another after 50 and the last quarter after 50, you've still got more mileage out of them than wands due to sheer numbers.

>>44171805
What are those wands even made of? Because guns are made of metals that can be easily either hammered back into shape or just smelted down if the gun breaks making them fairly cheap.

>>44171200
I meant in the sense of back then, I knew you'd use a drill bit now but I wasn't sure if they existed in a workable form for drilling through iron. If they do, bingo. >>44171254 has the right idea regarding making a pipe.

>>44171947
>Just hammer it back, should be fine

I mean, if your putting it against them and pulling the trigger. An accurate fire arm needs to have a level of preciseness to it to get range and power. If the bullet is just bouncing around the barrel before its ejected, your just going to fuck up your gun and your bullet will just go where ever or split into the worlds shittiest buck shot.

And melting down a gun and remaking it just dosnt seem like a viable option as far as "ease of production" goes.

>>44172070
>If the bullet is just bouncing around the barrel before its ejected
That's basically what medieval guns did.

>>44169687
>>44169687
Better question: Who the hell plays "competative" TTRPGs like this, with GM's they shit on before starting and play with anyways? Also why would anyone want to play with a bunch of whiney dykes or a guy who brings a baby?

Also who's the "main" character we can latch to in this game?

And seriously where is the "fun" in this game, ttrpgs are meant to be filled with laughter and double entente (then again I've never played with over dramatic lesbians)

What do the PF designers have against guns, anyways? They're infinitely inferior to bows and arrows.

>>44172140

They're strong in the garbage-tier encounter design of Pathfinder Society, which largely consists of the Big N' Stompy II: Stompier, Slowier, BIggier idea of "challenge."

And, because of Paizo's logic that any martial too strong in PFS but fine in normal games has to be nerfed for everyone else, but any caster too strong in PFS but fine in normal games just gets piecemeal banned from PFS, Gunslingers get smacked in the nuts and guns by extension.

I really don't get the idea that always turns up of 'Guns are these magical death devices that ignore all armour and will kill stuff stupidly well' but are also required to fire so very slowly that even high level characters require jumping through a dozen hoops to get them up to the same speed as a crossbow.

If your magic shield will block a titan large enough to poledance a skyscraper trying to boot you into next week, it will likely block a fast bit of metal. By the same token, if an archer can put a half dozen arrows into a target a klick away in three seconds flat without blinking he can likely fire a gun a lot faster than a 'real life' person could.

>>44171143
>>44171526
>dandwiki
That is literally homebrew. Come back when you have an actual rules source.


5e's and 3.5's DMGs both have stats, but not prices, for advanced guns and bullets. They do have prices for renaissance weapons. They are the same in both editions: 250gp for pistol, 500 for musket, and 3 gold gets you ten bullets.

Pathfinder, which does have prices for advanced firearms, has a more complicated pricing scheme that varies with tech level. Someone who can actually craft firearms (i.e. gunsmith feat) can make an advanced rifle for 2.500gp, a revolver for 2,000, and bullets for each at 1.5 gold per shot. In "commonplace guns" tech level, those costs are divided by 4. In "guns everywhere" tech level, they're divided by 10.


tl;dr: Don't use dandwiki homebrew, use actual rules instead. Also guns are way cheaper than some random internet bozo's guesstimate.

>>44172137
How about you go back to /pol/, shitlord?

>>44169763
>When you're in a world where a crossbow is considered the height of weapons technology, making a magical tube that fires lead pellets at a thousand feet a second seems like a total waste when you can just make a wand of magic missile.
Who said anything about the "gun" shooting a lead pellet? it is obviously an ergonomically sensible wand of magic missile or similar.
You pull the trigger and out comes the magic spell.

>>44169687
>oh lawdy Jesus, there are guns!?

There are dragons, manticores, chimeras, sentient balls of acidic slime, magic swords and animated skeletons, and you're afraid of a smoothbore black powder handgun?

Yes it's fine, I know you're voting for Bernie Sanders, but please bear with me here, the first firearms were used in Europe in the 14th century. If your plate armor has joints, it's probably more advanced than early firearms.

>>44169687
The problem isn't that there are guns in a fantasy campaign, it's that there are guns in the campaign at all. Swords, crossbows and magic missiles are all a-okay, but guns are evil. Even make-believe ones.

ESPECIALLY make-believe ones.

>>44170806
>Why not magic-based computers with wizards exchanting hot lesbian sorcerer porn over the SCRYnet? Necromancers teaching skeletons sempaphore to act as general computers or message relay towers? Air-traffic controllers using telephathy to direct the flying whale-traffic, which is primarily used by the heads of powerful wizarding university that go by the name Chief Enchanting Officer.
>Really, if the magic exists, none of this should come as a surprise.
You are right, it shouldn't come as a surprise. Heck necromancy alone is amazing since you get perpetual motion devices. The fields are ploughed by undead, the mills are powered by undead walking in a circle forever, the semaphore towers... etc.
The only reason is that authors don't really think about the internal consistency of their setting and get
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MedievalStasis

>>44170843
>>44170916
>Cheaper
>Easier to produce
But literally the entire argument is that those guns are magic items that work on magic! They are NOT cheaper and easier to mass produce, each one was enchanted by a wizard

>>44172191
>He didn't like the progressive gurls
>he must be a /pol/ shitlord
How about the fact they are always complaining and shiting on the dm (and everything) from the beginning or are just unpleasant, or over the top in the game?
Does that make me a shitlord for not auto-appaulding with something bad for genuine reasons?

>>>/tumblr/

>>44172203
I'm impressed by how much douche you can put in one sentence.

>>44171805
50 rounds of ammo for one light pistol and one light pistol ends up being 1,150 gold pieces. Roughly half of the cost of a Wand of Magic Missile (level 3). A level 1 wand costs only 750 gold, making it even cheaper than the light pistol option.

Let's take two hundred soldiers. Give one hundred of them Wands of Magic Missile, give the other hundred light pistols and 50 rounds each.

Supplying the gunslingers would cost 115,000 gold pieces. Supplying the stickslingers would cost 225,000 gold pieces.

The gunslingers would have a quarter of the range and they'd have to factor in accuracy. They can only have six bullets at once and reloading takes a standard action. You'd also have to worry about the guns exploding in your hands, and you could only fire one bullet a round.

The stickslingers would have more range, would never miss (without magical interference), and never misfire. They do less damage per shot, but fire two shots a round and can hit two different targets at once.

To me, the enhanced accuracy and range would more than excuse the doubling of the cost.

>>44172297
>>44172191
Found the tumblrina

>>44172297
well get started at topping that!

>>44172171
this, a thousand times this.

Hell, even without magical shields, you have people who can run sanic fast, shrug off dragon's breath, but a gun is INSTANTLY DEADLY DEATH THING THAT DEATHES PEOPLE TO DEATH

>>44169687
You know, people have a very funny idea about the age on which DnD is based. If we're going by actual history rather than Tolkien-vomit then early guns would be perfectly reasonable, as would early grenades.

>>44172137
>or a guy who brings a baby?
if the baby is well behaved that's not really a problem

It's just something you have to work around when playing with people out of college or high school.

>>44172169
Paizo sounds like they're even dumber than Wizards.

>>44172306
>DnD is the only system
Can you get any more retarded?

>>44172140
>Touch AC
>infinitely inferior to bows and arrows.

They're amazing if you build for them. Get your reload time down to a free action, make sure your gun never explodes, and it's wonderfully OP.

It's been ages since I've fucked with it, but I believe the build I used is something like gunslinger5/fighter(trench fighter) 3. Dex to damage twice, no misfires, etc. It was especially nasty with an advanced rifle.

>>44172297
Shouldn't you be selling your body to pay off your student loans or something?

>>44172353
>Complaining about people using D&D stuff

>In a thread started by a comic based on D&D

>>44172359
>and it's wonderfully OP.

If by "OP" you mean "can almost keep up with an evoker for damage, and still can't match them for crowd control."

>>44172359

>Dex to damage twice

You expressly can't get the same stat to anything twice in pathfinder.

>>44172297
He's not wrong, though.

>>44172261
If that shit is widely excepted why the fuck can't thermite exist?

>>44172203
Guns kill people, swords don't. You are likely to play with someone who's loved one was killed by a gun, you won't meet anyone in your life who had a similar experience with a sword.

>>44172306
>A level 1 wand costs only 750 gold
and a 5th level wizard, and a small amount of XP

>>44172380
>If that shit is widely excepted why the fuck can't thermite exist?
1. what does thermite have to do with the argument?
2. where did I say it couldn't exist?

>>44172198
There was a (not terribly good) series of books which had this concept in them. The main character is a gryphon commando whose first mission and some of the follow up parts of the book were based around the enemy inventing tubes with a firing stud which when pressed acted as a one-shot wand of fireball. They thought this was some incredibly serious shit because, limited as they were, prior tot his all spells had been in the hands of only a few wizards. Wizards were normally fielded solo or in small teams which were devastating but could be taken out, giving every trooper a magic ranged weapon, no matter how shit, was seen to be a game changer because suddenly you couldn't just Leeroy Jenkins their command tent.

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>>44172386
>Guns kill people, swords don't. You are likely to play with someone who's loved one was killed by a gun, you won't meet anyone in your life who had a similar experience with a sword.
I'm sure if I lived in the 14-19th centuries I would.

I'll assume this is b8 and you can't be this stupid

>>44172137
I kinda root for the GM, he's trying but his group is shit

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>>44172386
Perhaps modern firearms, but how many people are shot annually with black powder arquebuses, as opposed to, say, being stabbed with knives?

>>44170418
I think people in the middle ages would understand what an elevator is. They don't know exactly how it's powered, but they can feel it move and they see what space the shaft occupies in the building.

>>44172386
>Guns kill people, swords don't.
People kill people, in countries where guns are banned violent crime is significantly higher and in fact the amount of stabbing with knives far outweighs the number of gun killings.
While you could argue that a knife is not a sword, do note that knives are not banned either.

>You are likely to play with someone who's loved one was killed by a gun
Maybe if you live in somalia

>>44172359
A similarly optimized archer would basically outdo you every time.

>>44172410
>I'm sure if I lived in the 14-19th centuries I would.
But you don't. We all live in XXI century and we all would be glad if you jonied us.

>>44172440
I dunno. I can kind of see their point of view on things.

He's given them character sheets, meaning that they couldn't familiarize themselves with the rules and classes of this world beforehand. More than once he's forgotten important parts of the world, preferring to just throw them into a combat to whet their appetites first (He didn't explain magic or how the races worked and related to each other, he forgot to tell them what tech level they're working with). And he keeps acting like he expects them to be theater majors, when two of them are hardcore roleplayers, one's a baby (that he's forcing them to treat as a plot important party member), and one of them is still trying to figure out this new magical system he's having to use on a character he didn't build.

>>44172483
wow you first world bigot.
I live in the congo and i lost half my family to warlords using machetes and enchanted zweihanders

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>>44172359
>They're amazing if you build for them.
No they aren't, pathfinder included a bunch of nerfs specifically for guns to make them suck

>>44172140
>What do the PF designers have against guns, anyways?
Some of them really hate the idea of guns and want people who use them to suffer

>>44172386
>You are likely to play with someone who's loved one was killed by a gun, you won't meet anyone in your life who had a similar experience with a sword

Then again, if you live in a country where guns aren't readily available you're most likely to have lost a loved one to 1d4 piercing damage or a 1 bludgeoning unarmed strike.

>>44172539
>Some of them really hate the idea of guns and want people who use them to suffer
Just like monks

>>44172573
So clearly, a monk that used guns would suffer more than any other character.

>>44172562

Australian: I lost 1 family member to guns, 2 people I know to horse riding accidents.

Clearly the game needs to not have horses so as not to cause me distress.

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>>44172539
TL:DR Sean K Reynolds (a pathfinder dev) explains why he nerfed guns in pathfinder

>>44172573
>Just like monks
Funny you should say this, Here is Jason Bulmahn (pathfinder lead dev) saying that monk is his most hated class
kinda explains why it got nerfed and his favorite classes got buffed

>>44172539
Wait. So according to him falling on your head from the fucking orbit and surviving is NOT a superhuman feat? Did he done that before? Does he know that he is the last son of Krypton?

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>>44172608
that would be a nightmare to play

>>44172615
More pure sheer idiocy from pathfinder lead dev about nerfing martials for the sake of "realism" (because he is unable to do a feat that many others can do IRL)

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>>44172629
>Wait. So according to him falling on your head from the fucking orbit and surviving is NOT a superhuman feat? Did he done that before? Does he know that he is the last son of Krypton?
Its more that he refuses to answer this question and will ban you if you point out to massive huge holes in his logic.

>>44172631
>a nerd with no motoric skills can't do something easily
>no one can do it easily

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>>44172657
and here is my last screencap for pathfinder devs.

>>44172674
Yep, pathfinder development at its finest. "I failed to do this this morning. I just posted an errata"
I am amazed people give them money

>>44172676

OCCULT MOTHERFUCKING ADVENTURES.

How about that one for canceling?

>>44172573
What's wrong with monks? I've heard they're ridiculously underpowered, I've heard they're overpowered.

>>44172725
>I've heard they're overpowered.
This is either a joke or stated by retards
>What's wrong with monks?
They are mechanically the worst class in the game by far. An NPC class like "guard" is better than them.
The authors actually stated that they like it because there is "never an empty level" and "you always get stuff' but the stuff you get is SHIT. at level 17 you get the ability to comprehend language like a level 1 cleric can, who the fuck cares?
(oh, and at level 20 you become a valid target for wizards to planar bind your ass)
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Monk#Dungeons_.26_Dragons_3rd_Edition
>The monk was revamped and brought into line with the rest of the melee classes, but still treated as a weeaboo kung-fu master in a world of Merlins and knights. The power curve was more gradual and didn't start with suck, though it most certainly ended with it. They also got the "weapon proficiency: exotic" so they could use weird weeaboo horse-stickers and nunchucks, and their abilities were associated with this quasi-magic stuff called "ki." They're a tier 5 class, meaning that they are in the same pit of shame as the Healer, Soulknife, and unoptimized fighter. Why, you ask? Because anything they can do can be done with magic items that they probably won't even be able to use, they do shit for damage, their armor class is shit, and they can't hit shit (3/4ths BAB.) Oh, and they're the damn poster boys for MAD (srsly, just look at that page.)
>Also, they're not proficient with unarmed strikes. Seriously. Look it up.

If a monk puts down his stupid fucking kung fu grip and picks up a sword he automatically already does more damage. If the sword is magic its even better because it costs 2x more AND wasting a magic item slot to get an enchantment bonus on his fist compared to just a magic weapon. Improving their AC also takes 2x to improve. They suck at grappling (3/4th bab, grappling is bab based). They suck at everything.

>>44172844
>(oh, and at level 20 you become a valid target for wizards to planar bind your ass)
This bears more mentioning. At level 20 you become an outside. This means that you are NO LONGER ELIGIBLE for most of the buff spells in the game! So, immunity to buffs from the party and susceptibility to being someone's bound sexslave bitch. That is their capstone, their level 20 ability, and it literally gives them nothing.
They of course suck all the way to level 20

>>44172844
>>44172879
Alright now, here are some essential fixes for monk
1. Proficient with all weapons
2. Hand wraps item, those cost the same to enchant as a normal weapon and do not consume an item slot.
3. Proficiency with unarmed combat
4. full BAB
5. less MAD! Add their wisdom bonus to anything based off of strength, dex, and con.
6. For the purpose of all feats and combat abilities, their unarmed attacks can count as a weapon. So they can take a feat to make them keen, and they can properly power attack unarmed as if they are using 2 handed grip with a large weapon for that 1 to 2 conversion rate of BAB into damage.

>>44171489
A bullet that can be fired each round as a standard action has to be a lot more than just a hunk of metal, a piece of wadding, and some powder. It has to self contained and highly standardized so it can simply be put in the gun inconsequentially. Reloading a 1Xth century muzzle loader from raw materials takes many rounds for even a godlike wielder.

>>44172631
Gun wielding monk is the ultimate example of suffering I could think of. Not even the damned souls in the Nine Hells suffer as much as they do.

>>44172386
>You are likely to play with someone who's loved one was killed by a gun
Not if you live in literally any first world country.

>>44169687
I personally hate the idea of "gunslinger" or anything related for my custom setting.

There's only one gun, a very basic pistol, in my setting. It's a brand new invention so it's hardly spread from the region it was made in, and it sucks.

D6 damage with x4 crit on 20, nat 1 jams requiring full round action for *chance* to unjam (or take feat to always succeed the check, still using your turn), and range over 40 ft = disadvantage. Point blank shot provokes attack of opportunity but gives advantage. Also, reloading for the round eats your move action.

Basically I want some (very small number) of the Pirates to have them for flavor, but stop it at there. Players can steal or buy one but it's going to suck if they want it to be their main weapon.

I'm just kinda weirded out by her reaction to there being guns in a fantasy setting. I've always wanted to build a fantasy world built more around the Early Modern Period and the 30 Years' War, including arquebuses.

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>>44172447
>in countries where guns are banned violent crime is significantly higher

>>44173019
I meant 50 g per "round" of ammunition, not 50g per turn of combat. And the slow fire rate is another point against having bullets cost that much.

>>44173090
Not wanting to shit on your setting but that doesn't make much sense. Why is the first gun a pistol? Guns started big and got smaller as the time went on, not the other way around. It's way easier to build a shitty hand cannon than it is to build a pistol. And why out of all people dirty pirates on wooden ships would have the most technologically advanced tech that can caught on fire at any time?

>>44173181
Because guns in his setting trigger his autism.

>>44173187
I want guns that can only be fired by autists and sjws.

>>44172285
It makes you a shitty person for judging them on their sexual predilections instead of their actions, dimwit.

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>>44172261
>tvtropes

Get that autism out of here

>>44169687
If you're playing Conan or something, yeah, it's retarded, ruins the vibe, shouldn't be there.

If you're playing Dungeons and Dragons, though, you're already playing a kitchen sink setting. There's already no thematic consistency or internal logic. So who cares?

>>44172447
>Gets his data from infographics made by gun enhtusiasts
>doesn't fact check
How does it feel to be a joke?

>>44173114
Wasn't confused, the anon describing the scenario dictated the thing operates just like a wand, i.e. fires ones per combat turn.

>>44173181
The short answer is that I'm not basing my setting off of the exact historical timeline of real life discoveries/technology.

The reason pirates (very few, mind you) have them is that there's an archipelago near the primary dwarf and gnome kingdom that is frequently raided, and that's where it was invented. The dwarves haven't really taken to the tech that quickly because it's not particularly reliable.

The Pirates like it because it's loud and intimidating. Other pirates and victims of raids shit their pants because they don't know what guns are. Also, it's a bit of a status thing due to how rare they are.

>>44173187
Essentially, yes

>>44173112
Next he'll try to say Hitler banned guns or some other bullshit that three seconds on Google will disprove

>B-but muh libruhl media!

>>44173316
What can i say, as a marxist i cannot support gun control.

>>44173280
>>44173187
And to expound on my anti-gun autism:

I wanted to move the slider a little towards LOTR from traditional D&D tech/magic, with the exception that pirates make for some damn good adventuring.

I did have to retain a good bit of magic and the like to appease players, but mages are much more rare in my setting. Magic shops don't litter every city corner. No steampunk flying thopters or blimps or whatever.

>>44170532
this

>steampunk is the next thing right after middle ages

I don't know if I hate this meme more than the "guns aren't medival" one.

>>44172447
>in countries where guns are banned violent crime is significantly higher

This is completely incorrect.

I don't believe in totally banning the purchase of firearms to the public, but get your facts straight nigga.

>>44173423
If you were responding to
>>44173365 (my post)

I'm sorry, let me clarify: I'm not trying to imply guns -> steampunk is how things are. I was zooming out on tech/magic at large in my campaign setting. The two are only related in that they're both higher tech than I wish to support in my setting.

>>44173423
See, I'm even a history major and all, but I'm not sure how to make the time between the Renaissance and the mid-1800s actually interesting to play in, while still being able to actually provide anything visual to work with. There's barely any 1800s-with-magic art out there, Renaissance gets eaten by generic medieval fantasy, and the 1600s-1700s just aren't good adventure bait.

So... Yes, for interesting settings, you jump from medieval/Renaissance pastiche directly to Victorian era, which generally implies steampunk.

>>44173450
Mexico has guns banned.
Won't save you from ending your head on a pike.

>>44173495
Mexico is one country.

Japan and Britain both have guns banned. Their violent crime stats are fairly low.

>>44173468
So your pirates only use galleys and longships? Becouse galleons are pretty damn advanced tech.

>>44173518
Japan is a specific example. Their crime statistic are so skewed they might as well be fictional.

>>44173494

God you sound like an unimaginative sod. But I guess if you need someone else's art to build a setting, that isn't a surprise.

>>44173494
Magic in the Renaissance would be largely either subtle or ritual in nature. Due to the spread of knowledge, most mages would be theoretical magicians, focusing more on alchemy, writing papers, creating homunculi or golems, and working with their magical societies to deepen their own wells of power rather than going out and lobbing fireballs at bandits.

As technology gets more advanced and obvious, the more subtle magic would get, until you started getting into magitech territory. Most 'adventuring' mages would be spirit hunters/tamers, mystic consultants, craftsmen/inventors proving the effectiveness of their wares, or members of various armies. They would all be gentlemen, of course. The 'gutter' classes would be largely hedge wizards or sorcerers, crafting potions or using their magical talents to earn a quick buck.

>>44173663
I like to have something to show players instead of just words. I'm writing a Victorianesque setting as it is, but it's gonna be a pain to have any sort of image to tie to a given character. Physical descriptions aren't my specialty and I never learned to draw. That's all there is to the lack of art out there; giving a visual representation gets a little harder.

>>44173554
>Mexico is a specific example. Their crime statistic are so skewed they might as well be fictional.

>>44169687
>Don't you hate it when DMs pull this shit?

No, I only care if the DM manages to run an enjoyable game.

>>44173554
Each country in Europe, but to be fair each country in Europe should compare to one of the States, not to USA.

>>44173518
Yes, which is an indicator that violent crime hinges on factors other than whether guns are banned or not (though that could indeed be a possible factor) which suggests that alternate methods can be used to reduce violent crime without hampering the freedoms of the citizenry.

>>44173753
Not every country in Europe has very restrictive firearm laws. Finland for instance.

>>44173798
And the crime runs rampart.

>>44173524

What if cogs and hulks?

>>44173821
In Finland? I recall Finland has social standards and crime rates comparable to other Nordic countries.

>>44173702
This pretty heavily reflects what I've been working with, yeah. The really skilled mages are the ones running the show, making sure all the magitech is working as intended, advancing magical SCIENCE!, so on. Less skilled, you're still more capable than a lot of combatants in our army, and since you're guaranteed to be part of one of the noble families if you have formal magical training, congratulations, you're a commander or something of the sort. Peasants? Figure it out yourselves, you're not worth our time! Be glad we give you anything!

Got a bit rambly there, but yeah.

>>44173722
Look up stuff with Alasteir Crowley. Find some Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrel fanart. Look for Victorian Magic/Wizards. Hell, use art from Castlevania. Symphony of the Night and Rondo of Blood/Dracula X Chronicles was 1800s.

You've just got to dig some, man.

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>>44173090
>nat 1 jams

I want /k/ and /pol/ to leave.

>>44172844
>>44172879
Do the splatbooks fix this at all? It seems slightly better in Pathfinder overall.

>>44169687
I hate this GM and his players. I hate the way his adventure unfolds.

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>>44169687
>Early medieval tech
>Full plate is available
>Greatswords are available

Full-plate armor and early firearms are contemporary. If you want "REAL" early medieval tech, swords should be limited in length, rare and REALLY EXPENSIVE and the best armor should be mail.

>>44173953
Sorry, I should have said "full-plate armor and early firearms are contemporary TOO EACH OTHER.

>>44173753
Well, if you're going for statistics, it's okay to compare the higher-population European countries to the states.

That said, I don't think it's just the presence of very easily accessible guns that make violent crime more of a problem in the US. There's a cultural element, too, what with tons of barely-repressed hatred lingering between various groups that have been melting pot'd together.

>mfw gun-shaped wands.
>mfw dual wielding gun-shaped wands
>mfw strapping two wands together for a double-barreled wand
>abaracafuckyou

>>44173953
They weren't that expensive in the early medieval periods. People tend to exaggerate this fact.

>>44174018
>gatling wand

>>44173875
Yes, the point is that people shouldn't be wielding guns in my setting. And for the Pirates it's not much more than an accessory/flavor piece.

>>44173524
Like I said in a previous post, I'm not basing it on history or normal tech progressions. I choose level of technology mostly on how advanced they *seem*, like on a superficial level. Low tech things that look out of place aren't included. High (within reason) tech things that look like they belong get to be included.

>>44169687
We've all had shitty DMs who use surprise to insert something they obsess over into their game. Usually in such a manner that their object of veneration is utterly unopposable and superior to anything else.

Yes, we all have had That DM.

>>44174073
>I choose level of technology mostly on how advanced they *seem*, like on a superficial level.
So your super special private setting is just forgote realms?

>>44173423

Well, yes. Generally speaking, people prefer conflict they can sink their teeth into and Victorian-era England is the next best thing. How would you go about making The Renaissance interesting enough for players who aren't history major's to delve into? What kind of hooks could you bait them with?

Lot of people go for Victorian England after that because it's got more going for it. Sure, Steampunk is often shit -- I mean, for all the Perdido Street Stations, you have a million 'gears on everything lol' idiots -- but there's hooks, grand adventures and a lot you can do with it.

How do you make The Renaissance interesting enough to hook players in for several long sessions? And I do mean your avg. player, not someone who's interested in the era besides, like a history major or history buff.

>>44174099
There are similarities, but no it's not a copy paste of FR

>>44174099
Choice of technology alone does not a setting make, anon.

>>44174141
Well, he mentioned dwarfs so i can assume that he has your standard races as well.

30 Years War?
Colonies in the Americas?
Versailles?
French Revolution?

Lot of things you can do after the medieval times and before the Victorian era.

>>44174264
Yes I have humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes as main races

All of which descended from the same race called the Erunar, which are largely gone/dead in the present age. There are a couple wandering about the world, being immortal and all tom bombadil-esque (though not necessarily as eccentric), but it's not highly likely that the players find out unless you want to make it a plot point in whatever adventure you run.

Also I really hope Erunar isn't already taken. I googled it, and all the other words I've "made up" for my setting, but I can never be sure.

>>44173518
Japan, yes. Their crime levels are so low and their culture so unique, they are an outlier and can be discounted.

The UK on the other hand? The UK's crime rates, while lower than the US are not significantly lower. Yes the reported rates are quite a bit lower, but I'll get to that.

There's an ongoing scandal in the UK right now called "No-Criming." It's the practice of local police departments writing off reported crimes as not actually constituting a crime.

A recent investigation has concluded that as much as ONE THIRD of all violent crimes in the UK were no-crimed in the last 10 years.

Citation: http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/public-administration-committee/crime-statistics/written/3270.html

So, in light of this new information, if we increase the reported crime statistics by one third to account for the fraud, the UK is not much lower than us.

>>44172614

Well we already pussied out and gave up our guns.

TIME TO BAN HIGH CAPACITY ASSAULT HORSES. (which i'm fine with, I hate the fucking things. bloody nags.)

>>44174392
Very specific to Earth history, though. If you're going for the general tech level and aesthetic of it, it's very different. Feudal lords will rise and fall, an industrial revolution will eventually take place, but there's nothing guaranteeing that x power will have y thing happen to it at z time exactly the same as it did in the real world.

Plus, military conflicts with nothing backing them up aren't necessarily the most fun adventures for people who don't play murderhobos. Versailles is a little different, to go fair.

>>44174073
For weapons that primitive and explosive, a nat 1 should destroy the barrel.

>>44174675
To be fair*, even.

>>44169687
I'm cool with Magic guns as long as I'm allowed to use them.

Like, if I hear firearms are a thing in the setting I'm making a character that uses guns.

>>44169687
Eh, my campaign just uses wands and staves in place of guns and cannons. Makes it a lot more unpredictable to face enemies unless you really know your Arcana.

Wands are essentially guns.

>>44170418
>>44170418
So you're playing "The Truman Show" in a "fantasy" world?

It's retarded and strangely intriguing at the same time. Might make for an entertaining twist.

>>44173112
Well, change that to a much lower degree of gun ownership, but that's essentially true. The degree to which a nation has violent crime doesn't correlate with gun ownership in either direction.

>>44174675
Well if we want to go just for a general feel I would suggest the advent of enlightenment, religious schisma and that kind of thing.
If I wanted to place something in this period I would probably go the direction of trade wars, guilds, city states and religion fueled conflicts.

>>44174938
Maybe throw in some kind of adventuring and colonialisation overseas, fueled by mecantile interests.

>>44173090
>>44173875
>nat 1 jams
>not rolling to confirm and on another nat 1 having the whole thing explode in the user's face
do you even realism?

>>44170990
Drinking plays a big part in our campaign (It's a Sailing campaign), but I'm not rightly sure if Pure Alcohol exists.

All I know is apparently Tequila does not exist and Underdark Mushroom Vodka makes your various bodily fluids briefly glow.

>>44174938
>trade wars, guilds, city states, religious conflict

Four for four! The main superpowers are funding and manipulating the city states along their borders into waging proxy wars for them; one of the superpowers in particular being a pseudo-deity unto himself (spells require energy to cast without a ritual, he's got a near bottomless well of energy as a major macguffin) who's trying to manage the actual ascension process. Trade wars coming from the Grand Fleet of the dwarves (yes, sea dwarves) getting knocked around by privateers in the process. Guilds... I have some stuff, but it's in notes I don't have with me.

So, yeah. You hit it four for four on things In working with. Good call.

>>44173494
>1600s-1700s just aren't good adventure bait
You know nothing about the 1600s. Nothing at all.

>>44175006
>not having nat 1 mean your crossbow prod breaks
>not having nat 1 mean your bowstring snaps
>not having nat 1 mean your blade breaks
either go all the way or don't go at all

>>44173450
>This is completely incorrect.
actually no, this is a fact.

A common twisting of words done is places that claim that GUN VIOLENCE is lower in countries with gun bans. However, the OVERALL violence is higher.

The most hilarious example was the snopes "disproving" this, they first found a chain letter that said violent crime is 5x higher in britain than in the USA. Then they disproved it by showing how its only 2.5x higher in britain. Except that just disproves the random chain letter not the fact that violence crime is factually higher.
Also, they were iffy about that too, they took the initial 5x statistic and started adjusting it down for discrepencies in reporting that favor their view, while completely ignoring discrepencies in reporting that go the other way (which are many).

>>44175089
If you want to go overseas, sure. Then it's adventure bait.

My group hates sailing/long ground travel. I'm not gonna stick them on a boat for the next decade. They dealt with that enough reading Berserk.

>>44175125
>>>/pol/
You won't be missed.

>>44170851
>It pretty much ended with the invention of firearms and the renaissance.
Complete bullshit. The first guns were complete unreliable and inaccurate. Medieval weapons still existed quite a while.

>>44173518
>Japan and Britain both have guns banned. Their violent crime stats are fairly low.
No, their GUN crime stats are low. Their VIOLENT crime stats are high. they use knives instead

>>44175093
This was my line of thinking when I implemented nat 1 jams. I considered the gun exploding but figured that's a tad harsh.

Although I'm blurring "my setting" and "my DM style" in these posts. In reality if anyone happened to want to use my setting, they're free to change the pistol stats/mechanics as they see fit

>>44173255
>instead of their actions
but he is judging them on their actions (over-the-top, shitting on the gm)
You were just triggered, dyke.

>>44173910
>Do the splatbooks fix this at all?
They replace the monk entire with a much better class called the "unarmed swordsage"
>It seems slightly better in Pathfinder overall.
No, pathfinder nerfed all martials a lot. and it buffed casters a lot

>>44169747
I dislike the dykes just by looking at them.

>>44169687
>assume this is an early medieval tech level.
This is the greatest folly among anyone that plays Dungeons & Dragons, or it's sub-settings.

>>44175332
>>>44169747
>I dislike the dykes just by looking at them.
You know, I gotta say that I agree... there is just something wrong about them

>>44174757
I'd like to play in a setting where the PCs learn about guns during the campaign and work with the DM to build a character with him using guns once he finds them in mind. Maybe start him as a skillmonkey so he'll be useful until we can steal some guns.

>>44175349
>This is the greatest folly among anyone that plays Dungeons & Dragons, or it's sub-settings.
that is just pattern recognition not a folly
also, some of the sub settings are exactly that played straights, while others are completely different like eberron, dark sun, and spelljammer

>>44175075
An aspect I really liek is the fact that it is much easier for a commoner in these settings to become an important person. At least if we try to keep it kind of historical. Merchants buying themselves into nobility, free cities ruled by mayors or councils. Gives players nice possibilities to expand their influence apart from being knighted by the king for being a hero (Which you can stil do, because knights were also still a thing).

More fluff than adventure bait is the whole enlightenment and humanism schtick, which I really like. It can become a nice adventure bait, if you base social upheavals and revolutions upon this that start to happen and overthrow the known order.

What I'm saying is, make overthrowing the medieval stasis, most fantasy lands have been in, the adventure bait. Granted, this works best in the low- to mid-level areas. The EMporer has granted a city the right to become independent from the lands surrounding them, only bound to the emoire itself. Or the city is trying to become their own state completely. Help a fledgling city state to stand it's ground against the duke of the area, that wants his share of the tax money back. Avoid war, or win it. This kind of thing.

>>44170418
Just play Shadowrun, dude.

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>>44169763
>>44169723
I was in a game a few months back where the soldiers of a magic theocracy were street urchins adopted and indoctrinated by the state.

They were all trained in UMD and carried small wands in bandoliers. The wands could be plugged into a framework that focused the energy of the wand, simultaneously raising the wand's accuracy (to hit bonus) and lowering its usage threshold (bonus to UMD). They came in both pistol frame and rifle frame flavors.

>mfw I got headshot by a Melf's Acid Arrow

>>44169687
guns in one form or another have existed a long time we just like to edit them out when we think about " the middle ages"

>>44171057
Yeah because asking someone who can't smith to smith something, and using the fact that they can't smith that particular thing as an argument for anything totally works. I would safely bet that a medieval blacksmith would be able to answer that question better then anyone here.

My personal bet though is that he might've attempted to cast the metal pipe, casting is an old and known method, i could totaly see a blacksmith attempt to do that. Would the result be anywhere near what's needed? no clue.

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>give this along with the diagram and one pouch of powder to a player and tell him he has to work out what it is
>his rolls are low so the player (my only player who puts any effort in) decides it's a mace and tries to eat the powder
>other players try to meta "I set the powder on fire" "I fill the device with rocks" etc

>let one of the other players DM and he wants to do it in my setting
>starts handing out pistols in the first session

>>44170916
>2. Reduce power of spellcaster-artisans

What's to stop the wizards from just using guns with underslung wands like grenade launchers?

>>44170977
Nah it has always been shit...at least as long as OP in his infinite faggotry has been shilling this shitty ass comic.

>>44174453
It should be noted that written off crimes are usually extremely petty - the kind that many local police forces in the US will generally overlook, too.

This isn't something unique to the UK. Getting in a fit about it is unique to the UK.

>>44175720
sounds awesome

Way late to this thread, but I dealt with this exact situation at our last session. I didn't know guns were in our campaign until twelve of them were pointed at our party. We've been playing for six months and the fact that guns existed has never come up until now.

>>44176005
>What's to stop the wizards from just using guns with underslung wands like grenade launchers?
you win 2 internet cookies for being awesome

>>44176166
Should have asked.

>>44176072
That's not what the article says, my friend.

Cops in the UK were called out for "no-criming" violent rapes and homicides.

Remember how one-third of violent crimes were no-crimed? So were one quarter of all rapes in the UK not reported and officially excluded from the record books.

>>44171057
If the Giradoni Air Rifle is any indication, you can make air-tight seals with pre-industrial era manufacturing processes. Expensive, though.

In some respects, manufacturing was not the bottleneck of historical technological development. The Greeks had intricate clockwork mechanisms and a rudimentary steam engine; all they lacked was ideas on making those tools significantly useful.

If it was known you could use that steam engine to haul cargo further and faster any baggage train? You would have thousands of people instantly thinking of ways to do it. Ancient peoples were not stupid, they simply prioritized different things for lack of ideas of what was possible. From experimenting with half-assed replicas they'll eventually figure out the most important working principles. It's slow, inefficient, and expensive... but it can work.

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Late medieval is best eat shit tolkientards

>>44175759
My only problem is that people leave in all the other stuff that was concurrent to early guns like plate armor and spurs. In fact any character with crafting skills could easily roleplay the production of smoothbore musketry with only the common material knowledge among blacksmiths of the average fantasy setting. It makes no sense that guns would be completely unheard of. Rare and relatively non-proliferated in military circles, sure, but the fact is that much of the equipment taken for granted by the inhabitants of the average fantasy world is in fact more advanced than the earliest firearms.

>>44176305
>In fact any character with crafting skills could easily roleplay the production of smoothbore musketry with only the common material knowledge among blacksmiths of the average fantasy setting. It makes no sense that guns would be completely unheard of.
You have to take into account the production of black powder and level of metalworking (you need strong screws and barrels that can withstand the explosion).

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>>44176174

>>44176305
Point in case, I'm working on presenting a design for an Alchemist's Fire bellows-powered flamethrower to my GM.
Among other things.

>>44176347
Nevermind that guns suxxor hard in dnd

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Ancient warfare is way beyond what people even realize. Those guys were using chemical weapons, explosives, flamethrowers, field artillery and armored vehicles for thousands of years. Anything you can do without modern materials and engines, you can bet your ass they were doing it in some form.

>>44176347
Black powder isn't really an issue. High pressure causing shit to explode only really became a big problem after the proliferation of smokeless powder. The earliest guns were quite crudely made, and little more than hand-cannons given a trigger mechanism. Even then they can easily pierce armor at reasonable ranges.

>>44176360
Yeah, my DM quit being so dumb about technology after I ended up taking over the kingdom we were playing in with a Hussite-lookalike peasant army and crude artillery.

>>44172446
this.

Why do we think people from past eras are especially stupid? Ignorant, yes - certainly they were ignorant of things that came after their time, of course - but they're not drooling retards. Nobody is going to mistake an elevator for a MAGIC TELEPORTATION PAD GUYS OMG, they can feel it move upwards and it just so happens it 'teleports' you directly up? No, they're going to figure out an elevator is a box that goes up and down. Maybe they don't know how it works, but that doesn't mean they'll live in awe of this magical wonder. In fact, they'll probably guess the basics - that it's suspended by some kind of pulley system with counterweights.

>>44175759

Nobody shits their pants over someone using a halberd, and halberds entered popular use AFTER gunpowder weapons.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyGunControl

>>44176486
>Black powder isn't really an issue.
Cannons and handcannons never even existed until the advent of black powder. Before then, only chemically incendiary weapons were the only things that even remotely resembled firearms and that only worked for flamethrowers and bombs. What you just said is beyond retarded and I suggest you go research the subject before you post about it again.

>>44176166
Well your character probably should have known, but really, how much difference is it going to make to your play experience? Having a gun pointed in your face isn't much more threatening than a drawn bow (and if you're playing D&D, chances are you can laugh at either).

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>>44176268
Renessaince is the way to go!

>>44176543
I think you misread. What I said was that black powder isn't an issue because it won't make your chamber explode. If you were referring to production, the formula is incredibly simple to make in large quantities.

>>44170851
It's true that firearms obsoleted heavily-armored knights and cannons obsoleted large stone castles, but they didn't do so overnight. Those concepts coexisted for centuries.

Yes, the era of knights in full plate armor and castles as primary military fortifications coexisted with the era of smoothbore muskets and cannons.

>>44176559
Why exactly are guns so shit in D&D? Is it for balance? Because they could just realistically boost the damage and then make reloading take several rounds and maintain balance with other ranged weapons.

>>44176579
>because it won't make your chamber explode.
But it will and it did for early cannons and firearms. They could even create breech loading cannons until metalworking was able to produce a strong enough screw for the back loading port.

>If you were referring to production, the formula is incredibly simple to make in large quantities.
A blacksmith wouldn't know how to make black powder and in the medieval era the knowledge of its production was not uniformly spread across the world.

>>44176399
In the context of small fights of a dozen participants as is common with D&D, early firearms did indeed suck - they are slow to load and inaccurate at range. Those disadvantages were outweighed by economies of scale, where you could field a thousand guns with just a few months of manufacturing and training, while it took at least a year to season a bow and years to train the archer wielding it.

That being said, D&D also does other things that further skew the balance away from guns.

>>44173268
>flipping out at the sight of a site you don't like
>calls others autistic

tvtropes is a useful - not perfect - but useful website, so long as you never, ever, ever interact with its community.

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>>44176588
>obsoleted large stone castles,
Not really, they just changed their approach to building them. Walls became lower, but thicker and new defensive points for returning cannon fire were developed.

What made castles obsolete was the plane.

>>44176669
>tvtropes is a useful
Not that guy, but fucking no. Get the fuck out.

>>44172386
>You are likely to play with someone who's loved one was killed by a gun
Where the fuck do you live? Syria?

>>44176640
>But it will and it did for early cannons and firearms. They could even create breech loading cannons until metalworking was able to produce a strong enough screw for the back loading port.
And it would be common knowledge among gunsmiths not to try and make a breech-loading weapon because of this. Information spreads very quickly.

>A blacksmith wouldn't know how to make black powder and in the medieval era the knowledge of its production was not uniformly spread across the world.
An alchemist would though. And by the time plate armor and halberds became a thing every alchemist in the land would be aware of the formula. You buy your gun and bullet mold from the gunsmith, your powder from the alchemist, and your lead and powder horn from the general store.

>>44176678
Man, why aren't there more star forts in fantasy? They're cool as shit.

>>44176174
Fuck you. "You didn't ask" is terrible logic. Unless something is supposed to be a major secret in character, it's reasonable to expect to be told anything major your characters would be expected to know of the setting.

>>44176305
This is why "inventing guns" is common trolling in D&D and other RPG settings. They have all the tools necessary o have guns, they just don't because that doesn't feel Tolkeinesque.

>>44176559
>>44176627
I am playing D&D, and as a matter of fact getting shot once with these guns took our barbarian down to 1 HP. So actually it was pretty damn scary. Thankfully I managed to knock several of them over with a table before they could reload. Clever roleplay wins out over fair combat when the DM stacks odds against you like that.

>>44176745
Twelves guns in 6 months of session isn't exactly "major".
Bet he saw more bows and wizard staves in that time.

>>44176689
>Nuh uh!
tvtropes isn't half as autistic as your manner of replying.

>>44176704
>And it would be common knowledge among gunsmiths not to try and make a breech-loading weapon because of this. Information spreads very quickly.
That was just an example. I'm saying that even muzzle loading cannons/firearms experienced chamber failures. Not uncommonly, either.

>And by the time plate armor and halberds became a thing every alchemist in the land would be aware of the formula.
While full plate armor became a thing by the mid 15th century, plate armor had existed for thousands of years. Anyway, the materials for creating black powder wasn't as easy to get as a sandwhich from the store. Not everyone could gain access to it or afford it.

>>44176790
Should the characters have reasonably known they existed and anticipated their use? If so, you shouldn't be expected to think to randomly ask unprompted.

>>44176790
No, I'm not sure if you understand. We had never seen a gun in 6 months of this game, and then all of a sudden we made some dwarves angry in a store and twelve of them pulled out guns and pointed them straight at us. I don't have a problem with guns in the campaign, but I'd have appreciated to not have that thrown at us out of the blue like that.

And I know it's petty, but for the record, I'm not a he.

>>44172386

Violent Mexican, South and Central American gangs commonly kill people with machetes.

A couple months ago a guy attacked and killed his girlfriend with a machete like five miles from my house.

Name one functional non-bullshit technicality difference between a sword and a machete.

Terrorists are notorious for beheading hostages with swords.

I know you're just trolling about gun control, but the nobody gets killed with swords anymore thing is blatantly untrue.

>>44173821
are you on drugs? There's more crime in Norway then there is in Finland... And I sure as hell can tell you that there isn't much crime in Norway.

>>44176856
>>44176695
How are you all taking the b8 this hard? Holy shit this is amazing

>>44169763

>not making a crossbow that shoots wands, which may or may not shoot magic missiles

>>44176783
>Clever roleplay wins out over fair combat when the DM stacks odds against you like that.

Son, that's the GM giving you a break because he realises he fucked up.

>>44176627
Then you have a really powerful weapon for alpha striking that you throw aside to mop up the enemies with your sword. Which isn't necessarily terrible because that's historically been an effective way of using handguns, but you want to be sure you've thought the gameplay implications through.

Realism should never be a concern when adding your homebrewed crap to D&D, because nothing in the system works realistically.

I don't like guns in settings because guns make players too cocky. You see it on /tg/ all the time in magic vs. technology threads.

>Oh yeah, wizards? What are you gonna do when I 360noscope you from a mile away before you can even react?
>*cocks back hammer* nothing personnel m'lord

It's annoying. I know it's just a power fantasy but the extent to which guns are worshiped is still exasperating.

>>44176912
I mean, I rolled a 19 on my strength check. He didn't really have to "give me a break".

>>44176640
>But it will and it did for early cannons and firearms. They could even create breech loading cannons until metalworking was able to produce a strong enough screw for the back loading port.
Early cannons were made for sieging castles and walls, not killing people. They deliberately overpowered the shots because it's less expensive to buy a new cannon than taking extra months to chip through fortifications when you have thousands of soldiers sitting idle outside. Hell, if all you care about is volume of shots, people made cannons out of wood on more than one occasion. They don't last terribly long, but they're pretty cheap to replace.

>>44175208
Source please.

>>44176887

I'm >>44176856 mostly I just wanted to share relevant information on the subject with anyone who might be interested, the bait was just a handy thing to quote.

In a way I'm grateful he brought up the subject since it's relevant in a thread about PERCEIVED rather than actual anachronism.

So is she mad because he didn't tell her there were guns in the setting, or because there's a gun pointed at her character's head, or what?

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>>44176938
I just once wish to see something like the Tsar Cannon in a fantasy game.
A 40t cannon that shoots 800kg of stone grapeshot...

>>44176856
Good point about beheadings
http://www.iraqinews.com/features/urgent-video-isis-beheads-american-journalist-steven-sotloff/

>>44177019
Canon of the sky titans in warhammer fantasy?

>>44176922
>It's annoying. I know it's just a power fantasy but the extent to which guns are worshiped is still exasperating.
As opposed to the extent which magic is worshiped? Wouldn't surprise me if the gun craze is fundamentally a backlash against caster edition.

>>44171135
Assuming you can make gunpowder.

>>44176996
protip: you can link comments by clicking on the post number.

And I'm just a little annoyed that he chose the most abrupt and life-threatening way to clue us in to the fact that guns are a thing that exists in his world. Could have at least mentioned guards carrying guns sometime in the past six months of the campaign.

>>44176938
>Early cannons were made for sieging castles and walls, not killing people
How is that relevant?
>They deliberately overpowered the shots
You can't speak for everyone, because that's straight up retarded, but generally NO. Cannons exploded, and when they exploded people fucking died horrible. They were also massively expensive and time consuming to create, not to mention transport. So, again, NO.
>Hell, if all you care about is volume of shots, people made cannons out of wood on more than one occasion
..

>>44172694
>>44172674
That was a joke post, its not why they changed it

>>44176826
>That was just an example. I'm saying that even muzzle loading cannons/firearms experienced chamber failures. Not uncommonly, either.
However the fact that bronze (albeit particularly strong bronze) was a common material to cast barrels out of means that besides a standard requirement of thickness and a recommendation not to overload, pressure wasn't a huge issue with firearm design. Again, it shouldn't be a problem for the player unless you are using a brand new, untested model or it was produced by an inexperienced manufacturer.

>While full plate armor became a thing by the mid 15th century, plate armor had existed for thousands of years. Anyway, the materials for creating black powder wasn't as easy to get as a sandwhich from the store. Not everyone could gain access to it or afford it.
When people say "plate" they are usually referring to the shiny shit knights wore, not a muscle cuirass or ring armor. And I'm not saying powder should be cheap or easily attained. The relative power of a gunslinger character could easily be balanced by making lead and powder expensive and uncommon. Perhaps the monarchy has a monopoly on production, or the war has caused shortages, or maybe shit's just pricey, as it often has been in real life. Even in a late medieval-inspired setting a gun-wielder should have a harder time finding support for his combat style than a swordsman or a crossbowman.

>>44177081
>That was a joke post, its not why they changed it
Kek, pathfinder apologist
Tell me then, why did they change it?

>>44177047
>Wouldn't surprise me if the gun craze is fundamentally a backlash against caster edition.

It almost certainly and blatantly is. Which was kind of my point.

Guns are the new Wizards, and Wizards are the new Jocks. People who fellate Guns vs. Wizards get off on being the "underdog but not really."

>>44177041
>Canon of the sky titans in warhammer fantasy?
Actually, yes.
For some odd reason I tend to forget that Warhammer Fantasy actually has a lot of the stuff that interests me in the Empire. Landsknecht-styled soldiers, cannons, etc. Pity I don't like the rest of the fluff that much.

>>44177072
Yeah, I'm aware, but I didn't think responding to the OP was necessary.

I agree though, he's a shit DM for springing that out of nowhere.

>>44177133
That's an ogre weapon though. Stolen from the giants and slapped on the back of a giant rhino like beast to move it

>>44177108

Oooh, ooh, I know!

Because it made gunslingers OP ;^)

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>>44175332
>>44175370

>>44177094
>pressure wasn't a huge issue with firearm design
No, it really was. In fact, it was the driving force behind firearm evolution besides the method of ignition.
>When people say "plate" they are usually referring to the shiny shit knights wore, not a muscle cuirass or ring armor
No. Actual plate was around since the BC. However, the shiny plate as you are fixated on was cheaper and faster to make once certain metal working techniques/technologies were developed. They were also able to make thinner pieces by that time which allowed them to make full plate armor because they would now have actual range of motion when covering limbs.

>>44177074
>How is that relevant?
Because you can extend the lifespan of a barrel by using weaker shots. Less stress on the barrel, more shots fired. But when you're a general who is already losing hundreds or thousands of soldiers in pitched battles, losing a couple dozen to a barrel exploding is small change. Breaking the enemy walls at the cost of a cannon or two so you can send the rest of your troops in? Worth it.
>You can't speak for everyone, because that's straight up retarded, but generally NO. Cannons exploded, and when they exploded people fucking died horrible. They were also massively expensive and time consuming to create, not to mention transport. So, again, NO.
They don't have to be massively expensive, as is evident by the usage of wooden cannons. You wanted the good bronze cannons because you could pack more powder for more range and power, but that wasn't the only type of cannon available. There's simply tradeoffs in an era where lives are cheaper than the weapons they held.

>>44177154
Oh yea, I just mean in general. As in, Warhammer Fantasy actually has blackpowder weapons, Landsknechts, cannons and all the stuff that I often miss in other fantasy settings. And most of that seems to be in the Empire. Though of course other races do have their share of cannons as well.

>>44173518
japan, you mean that country where cops brow beat medical examiners into ruling death causes as accidents or natural, like "struck by small round metallic object at high velocity" or a serious heart attack that smashed his face and broke all of his ribs?

japan is a fucking JOKE

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>>44171057
Like this. You make a mould that can take the heat of molten metal and make it into a cylinder shape. Then you make a long shaft attached to a cap and drill a hole through it. Fit the two together and pour in your molten metal through the hole.

Hey presto, one hollow tube that's capped at one end. If you need a hole at any point, drill it.

>>44177225
>There's simply tradeoffs in an era where lives are cheaper than the weapons they held.
hasn't that only gotten worse?

>>44170851

>The medieval era was 500AD to 1500AD

Gunpowder was invented around 800AD, was around in europe by around the mid 1200s, probably brought there by the mongols.

Guns were around for more or less the entirety of the period when people were wearing big fancy suits of full plate armor that fantasy paladins and knights tend to be styled after. Articulated plate armor also started to be a thing around the 1200s.

So I wouldn't say "most of the medieval era", but certainly "most of the part of the medieval era that everything fantasy apes it's general aesthetic from"

Like Joan of fucking Arc had a unit of culviners on personal retainer to shoot motherfuckers she didn't like.

>>44177225
>Because you can extend the lifespan of a barrel by using weaker shots
That literally has nothing to do with
>Early cannons were made for sieging castles and walls, not killing people

>Breaking the enemy walls at the cost of a cannon or two so you can send the rest of your troops in? Worth it.
Not in the medieval age where cannons were much more costly and time consuming.

>as is evident by the usage of wooden cannons
Literally never happened in any meaningful capacity.

>>44177276
Medieval cannons were single pieces and had no drilled holes

>>44177142
I mean, in general he is an excellent DM. That particular decision was just kind of shitty. Makes it all the more surprising, too.

>>44177197
>No, it really was. In fact, it was the driving force behind firearm evolution besides the method of ignition.
I just conceded that it was an issue until it was dealt with, but that the solution was simple. Christ.
>No. Actual plate was around since the BC. However, the shiny plate as you are fixated on was cheaper and faster to make once certain metal working techniques/technologies were developed. They were also able to make thinner pieces by that time which allowed them to make full plate armor because they would now have actual range of motion when covering limbs.
Source on the AD -1 plate? I'm genuinely interested. And don't send me a picture of Persian mirror armor or Augustus doing his Roman Salute. "Plate armor" in RPGs is usually a thick iron or steel cuirass, "full plate" being the same but including the boots, gauntlets, greaves, etc. Fantasy settings seem to tend to be placed in that sweet spot in history when plate was still fairly expensive. I'm not sure what your anecdote about the munition armor and full-body plate is about though.

>>A couple of idiots start saying that guns should be illegal
>>Everyone else bitchslaps them intot he ground with statistics

As one of the few pro-gun British people, this makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

Incidentally, how does one reconcile the existence of both magic and guns in a setting without making it anachronistic? Or is it generally assumed that post-scarcity enabling magic is assumed to not be used in such a manner for the sake of creating a world where there are actually adventures left to be had?

>>44176005
>>Dianne Feinstein gets triggered
>>Tries to ban d&d for giving kids ideas on how to play with guns

>>44177558
>how does one reconcile the existence of both magic and guns in a setting without making it anachronistic?
Well, what advantage does a guns have over a wand of magic missile or a spell of fireball?

>>44177662
*a gun

>>44177393
Then don't drill the hole. Simple. The rest of the method is the easiest way to make a hollow, metal cylinder that's capped at one end.

>>44177662
Could be much cheaper to mass produce, harder to detect, and harder to shield against.

>>44173059
One child under 12 has been killed every other day since sandy hook. Want stats for actual gun violence in the US?

>>44177398
Sounds good to me. Have the guards pointing "odd metal devices" at your head, then have them demonstrate what they do on an NPC or something. Sounds like a thrill to me.

>>44177277
>hasn't that only gotten worse?
As warfare developed, lives have becoming increasingly valued. You might take a noble for ransom in medieval times, but you wouldn't care about the peasants he levied to fight against you. Fast forward to the modern era where we have codified rules on how to handle the surrender of soldiers, the treatment of prisoners of war, etc. Experience is understood as an incalculable asset now, with battle-tested field units being rotated home to instruct other units instead of leaving them on the front.

>>44176743
They're designed specifically for use with cannons. The points make for better overlapping fields of fire, the thicker walls protect against cannon balls, and height just wasn't worth the effort anymore since almost no one was still using bows by the point that they were common, so you didn't need height to increase the range of your arrows or try to 'catch' trebuchet projectiles instead of letting them go over the walls and into the city.

>>44177277

Not really. The crew of a tank is worth more than a tank. A fighter jet might cost more than a pilot, but those are rare, and you ain't getting back one without the other.

You gotta consider not only the cost of training and recruitment bonuses and pay, but also the cost of veteran benefits, of medical costs in the event of serious injury, plausibly life-long medical costs, the cost of military pensions to spouses or dependents if the solider dies, etc.

Even the ground-poundiest infantryman probably clocks in well over a million dollars, and it gets worse if he gets injured or killed.

Of course, on the other hand, militant groups will just take whoever they can get, and don't worry about shit like pensions or training, and the cost of a solider to them is pretty much a kalash plus bullets, and I'm sure they encourage soldiers to bring their own.

>>44177355
>That literally has nothing to do with
Sure it does. Thick stone walls are going to take much more of a beating than flesh that might possibly have a thin layer of metal in front of it. You need to adjust the strength of your shots to compensate.

>Not in the medieval age where cannons were much more costly and time consuming.
More costly and time consuming than feeding and issuing paychecks to thousands of soldiers for months on end? Do you also think the Ottomans would have taken Constantinople without cannons?

>Literally never happened in any meaningful capacity.
Depends on what you mean by meaningful capacity. Yeah, no first-world country is going to be fielding wooden cannons as their primary armament, but in a pinch you work with what you got. The Romanians and Bulgarians both used wooden cannons in the 1800s.

>>44171471
Actually, due to how Shield and Mage Armor work, we do know they'd be functional against cannonballs and bullets.

Because they're Force effects, meaning that they utilize raw elemental Force. We can know Force repels these items just as we know Gravity still affects them.

The question is: how greatly does it affect them? I'd argue for "the same", because of the effect's written explanation.

First, We know from Wall of Force that some Force effects are immune to damage. We also know from the various Hand spells that Force effects can have Hardness and HP.

Second, we know from tables in the DMG and the sunder action that shields and armors can be attacked and damaged, and possess Hardness and HP.

As such, we can assume that if the effects in Shield and Mage Armor were meant to be destructible, rules would have been included detailing their HP and hardness, as other Force effects do.

In the absence of such details, we must assume that the Force effects of Shield and Mage Armor follow the other set of Force rules, and are indestructible.

As such, their ability to deflect cannonballs and bullets stems from the fact that it is an indestructible interposing material.

Which now leads to the thought process that some aspiring abjurationist would research a way to reinforce existing walls with the fortitude of raw force effects, making walls that are immune to siege damage. leading to transmuters developing disintegration weaponry to overcome THAT.

Which means that truly effective ballistas and siege weapons in a 3.P setting fire disintegration beams at castles to overcome their spirit walls.

Which is, in my opinion, a fine enough conclusion.

>>44177830
>As warfare developed, lives have becoming increasingly valued. You might take a noble for ransom in medieval times, but you wouldn't care about the peasants he levied to fight against you. Fast forward to the modern era where we have codified rules on how to handle the surrender of soldiers, the treatment of prisoners of war, etc.
that is culture and only in the west due to being democracies. this is very much not the case in communist countries and dictatorships.
>Experience is understood as an incalculable asset now, with battle-tested field units being rotated home to instruct other units instead of leaving them on the front.
Again, you are confusing the USA with the rest of the world. Especially in places that are actually war torn like africa. The weapons are simply worth so much more than the soldiers

>>44177558
magic isn't real, why the fuck do you care about anachronisms?

>>44174453
You're aware that the idea of not-reporting crime is by no means unique to England, right?

The first fucking week of Criminal Justice classes in the US, they explain that, by their best guess, somewhere around 40% of ALL CRIME in the country is unreported or misreported (someone is murdered, but only reported missing, etc). Getting people to report their rapes is one of the single biggest issues facing anti-rape taskforces.

So if we're increasing the UK by 33%, we should increase the US by at least 30%.


Personally, I think the gun problem in the US is addressable, but there's too much money on both sides to really make it work. I'm also in favor of a few security theater style moves to make America FEEL safer. If we're willing to run the entire TSA, we can afford a couple little things.

This whole topic is off-course, so I'll spoiler it, but in my personal opinion, there is no need for private American citizens to own weapons with automatic capability, or magazines in excess of 12 rounds. Have them for rent at local gun ranges? Fine. I understand the thrill of firing off a whole magazine. But it's not something you'll need for your personal protection, or for hunting.

You know, the whole gun control debate could make for an interesting setting point in a fantasy setting, if you could avoid leaning too far on either side politically.

Like, if people were sick of Gnomes having rapid-fire wands, or the number of dwarven clay golems that accidentally rampage through towns every year. Heck, have every side have a gun-like device that the others don't like, so no one's in the moral high ground.

>>44178546
>>you don't need

Just because you don't need something, doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to have it.

Everything is legal until it is specified as illegal. That is how free societies work - and as such, the justification as to why someone should not be able to have something is required, not the justification of why someone should have something.

The idea that banning standard-capacity magazines will do anything is totally redundant nowadays anyway.

>>44178174
>that is culture and only in the west due to being democracies. this is very much not the case in communist countries and dictatorships.
The fact that there are places where surrendering means you have a fairly good chance of living means things have undeniably gotten better. Maybe you're still fucked if you surrender in a given half of the world, but that's better than being fucked surrendering anywhere across the entire world.
>Again, you are confusing the USA with the rest of the world. Especially in places that are actually war torn like africa. The weapons are simply worth so much more than the soldiers
The weapons are valuable but moreso than the soldiers carrying them? Debatable. When you're handing AKs over to literal children to wield, either the gun is cheap or the soldier expensive.

>>44177784
Not to mention being able to be operated by any layman with no magical ability.

>>44178620

The reason is that allowing our citizens the ability to fire 30 bullets inside of a second has resulted in an excess number of criminal uses for a relative lack of positives to our society.

Again, the ONLY notable positive to allowing automatic weapons is that our nation's gun enthusiasts have a more exciting mode of fire, and that we can claim to be more free than other nations despite this being disproven several times. We're actually not in the top 10 most free nations in the world. (or at least we weren't in 2010, I haven't checked more recent reports.)

And it's not TOTALLY redundant. It's mostly redundant. And there's a lot of shit we put up with for far less return. The entirety of the TSA, for instance.

Banning high-capacity magazines means that someone desiring it has to work and plan to get the components. Not a lot, but any increased time between intention and execution makes it more likely that they'll be noticed.

There are better systems that could be explored, of course, I just feel like those two points would serve as useful first steps to serve as a sign that no, we don't want to take away your guns, we simply want you to have guns that are more directly useful than destructive.

>>44178546
To continue on this thought line, you can even see some easy parallels in the case of the Dwarven Clay golem rampages.

Clay golems are very useful workers, capable of carrying as much as 6 dwarves working in concert. They're expensive, and likely the pride of any dwarven family that owns them. They don't hurt anyone without the direction of their owner.

Further, they're only a danger when mistreated or misused, but once handled in those ways, the odds slowly increase of them being completely uncontrollable. Children or teenagers messing around are the most likely candidates for initiating an event.

>>44178546
>Getting people to report their rapes is one of the single biggest issues facing anti-rape taskforces.
That's because most - not all, but most - rapes are not black and white, clear-cut, someone forces someone else into sex. The truth that nobody wants to admit is that rape is not black and white and there is a gray area where someone can "kinda" consent. For that matter, human memory is not infallible, even BEFORE you add in the influence of things like alcohol, which is a big factor in this issue; the radical left's belief that everyone will sign a goddamn affirmative-consent contract while stone sober is just not how most hookups happen. An unskilled or agenda-driven prosecutor can end up accidentally convincing someone they were raped when they in fact perfectly well consented, they were just surprised the next morning that they got so out of hand.

>>44175720
I did this too! Except mine was a bite more clunky. They looked like pepper grinders and had to be cranked slightly before each shot. They had eight barrels that could either be a different wand, or you could load a pre-charged disposable tube that could contain a vial of just about anything. The house favorite was acid rounds.

>>44178546
Why 12 rounds? Is the 13th round the part where it becomes evil? Don't give arbitrary bullshit. There's nothing evil about round number 13, or 21, or 31, or 9001. There are reasons beyond "thrill" why someone will want a high capacity magazine.

For one thing, they're easier to load. Stopping every 90 seconds to load a metal magazine with a sharp edge on top, forcing bullet after bullet down into a stiff spring, fucking hurts after a while. It's the #1 deciding factor in how long I stay at a firing range, after a couple hours of practice max it just stops being worth doing

Secondly, you know guns aren't like you see on TV where you shoot someone once and they keel over, instantly capacitated, right? And heroes on TV never miss, even when they're civilians firing at an attacking target in a stressful and surprised situation. Even assuming one attacker, you could easily need six or more shots to down someone with a 9mm (the most common handgun cartridge in America) and that's before you get into the fact that Jamal might have brought his friends Tyrone and Jamarcus with him when they decided to explore the insides of your home.

>with automatic capability
You know automatics have been incredibly hard to get a hold of since the machine gun registry was illegally closed in the 80s, right? And the number of crimes committed with legally-owned automatic weapons NOT in the hands of a police officer committed in the last 30 years can be counted on one hand, right?

>gun control in fantasy
Well, your idea would expose gun control for what it really is: An attempt to screw over some specific people for the benefit of others. Whether it's elves looking down on gnomes or ivory-tower urban liberals looking down on rural "redneck" whites, it's always little more than a mask for screwing over someone else. The first modern gun control laws in America were Jim Crow laws.

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>>44179022
>we don't want to take your guns
>just your magazines
>heheheheh

this is disingenuous bullshit. It's always "just a little more."

>>44179022
Which weapons have civilians had access to that fire 30 rounds per second? How many of those were legally purchased and then used in a crime?

>>We don't want to take away your guns
>>except the ones I don't want you to have
Literally everyone sees through your bullshit. Fuck off.

>>Banning high-capacity magazines means that someone desiring it has to work and plan to get the components. Not a lot, but any increased time between intention and execution makes it more likely that they'll be noticed.

Because prohibition works so well in both it's original purpose and the net benefit to society.

3d printing, nigga.

Also, the term high-capacity magazine is ridiculous. It's a silly legal term that is furthered by the same idiots who think a barrel shroud is "the shoulder thing that goes up".

>>there's a lot of shit we put up with for far less return. The entirety of the TSA, for instance.
>>The government already does this one shitty thing, therefore it's justifiable if they do another shitty thing
Fallacy of relative privation?

You are totally missing the bigger point here. The problem is not what type of gun is available. It's whether people with mental illness can access guns quickly (bam, there go most of the 60% of total gun deaths attributed to suicide) and the cause of gang violence. Both of those problems can be solved to continue the downward trend of gun violence (which has continued without any stricter laws, by the way) and increase negative liberty without destroying a great hobby and means of self-defence, food acquisition, and sport.