>'You are free, Leman Russ of Fenris, because your freedoms

>>43961145
He was already well inclined to hate the Emperor, and having come from a slaves background was particularly sensitive to such things. You notice most of the taitor primarchs started off as the underclass and won control of their worlds against tyranny.

>>43961145
I'm sure some of the more reasonable Primarchs like Sanguinius or Vulkan had questions and got satisfactory answers.

Neither seems to be interested in war for wars sake, even compared to some of their loyalist brothers like Khan or Russ.

>>43961166
I'd say as many loyalists did as well. I know Pert and Magnus were upper class on their homeworlds from the start.

>>43961185
Pertuabo and Magnus were also the ones that had to be pushed the hardest to throw in with Horus (besides fulgrim who got possessed)

Pertuabo was purposefully ground down on campaign after campaign. Magnus of course had his home destroyed. The other traitor primarchs all came from oppressed backgrounds. Except Lorgar. Fuck Lorgar.

>>43961166
>You notice most of the taitor primarchs started off as the underclass and won control of their worlds against tyranny.

I've always found the traitors more relaitable, mainly because they al lsuffered and thus makes them more human and easy to emphasize with. Curze growing up alone on a world filled with violent criminals, Angron raised in slave fights, hell even Lorgar had his ideals destroyed by the very man he idolized.

Meanwhile most loyalists suffered little tragedy or difficulties.

>>43961145

A lot of the Primarchs questioned the Emperor. In Scars the Khan makes a point of this when he's playing mongolian chess or whatever it was.

He disagreed with the Emperor's policies and his vision for mankind, and it put divides between him and his father. Its part of why he was so distant from his brothers.

>>43961145

The problem is that Angron is wrong. The Emperor's ultimate plan is freedom for everyone.

The worse part is, the Emperor loves his sons. All of them, even Angron. I mean, I'd have killed Angron. Lorgar is especially pathetic, no matter how he tries to phrase his end of the argument.

Really, Angron is simply too damaged to be any good to anyone. Look at what he does: does he look like a reliable narrator to you? He's a bloodsoaked mass murderer. Having a reflective moment does not make him right.

It's like saying "I know you are, but what am I?"

>>43961185

Corax purged his legion of the original legionnaires and officers because they were being too slave taskmaster-like.

>>43961275
Well Lorgar was the seed of corruption.

>>43961275
Fulgrim was an Executive on his homeworld and so far as we know Alpharius did pretty well for himself. Mortarion too was raised by a powerful warlord.

Generally it's about even in terms of well off to bad off among the Primarchs.

Ferrus lived as a wildman, Vulkan was a simple peasant, Corax was raised by slaves, and Khan was raised by random nomads.

The worst off among the Primarchs were Curze and Angron, but that resulted in both of them being literally crazy.

>>43961387

Perturabo was also the most powerful warlord serving under the most influential tyrant on his homeworld.

He lived in a court and everything.

>>43961319
I always wondered, if Big E was willing to put up with Angron's shit, what did the two forgotten Primarchs do that was so bad? I mean if Angron got a pass what the hell did the other two do to get killed off?

>>43961145
Anyone got that quote where Angron is killing his loyalist sons and says he hates the ones on his side, and really, really hates anything to do with fighting for glory?
It was pretty poignant, until one of the dying loyalists says something that pisses him off

>>43961319
>The Emperor's ultimate plan is freedom for everyone.

In the same way Hitler's ultimate plan was freedom for everyone, sure.

>>43961387
I don't know if I'd call Curze's "upbringing" worse than Mortarion's, but that combined with his visions meant he was pretty fucked up

>>43961440

Except all humans are the 40k equivalent Germans so it's fine. Are you a xenos or something? No? Then why the fuck do you care? Why try to make up some "so edgy" contrarian "the good guy was rully the bad geh all uhloong" shit?

>>43961440

>badmouthing our lord and savior

Which one am I talking about anon?

>>43961319
>The Emperor's ultimate plan is freedom for everyone.

Angron has a point though. Everyone will be free, but only under the Emperor's definition of 'freedom'.

I remember reading a short story, bunch of Space Wolves find a human world being raided by Dark Eldar. Space Wolves team up with the locals and manage to destroy the DE webway portal/beacon thing, both locals and Wolves suffering casualties. In the end when the Wolves say the Imperium will be along soon to assimilate them. Locals say something to the effect of 'we aren't going to trade on tyrant for another' and the Wolves orbital bombard the capital as the people are still celebrating. To be fair it is made clear the Wolf in charge hates what he has to do but still, they bombed innocent people cause they just got free of the DE and wanted to be free.

Hell if I recall the Emperor didn't stop the massacre of Angrons slave army because the Imperium already had a deal with the worlds slavers.

>>43961461
>make up

top kek, m8.

>>43961337
Why do authors say Legions were happy to reunite with their primarchs, if almost every single time, terran marines got fucked in the deal?

>>43961461
Yeah, but it's made pretty explicit that the Emperor/the Imperium goes overboard with some stuff.

The Interex are a good example. Really, they shouldn't have been destroyed and they could have lived peacefully with the Empire. If you disagree, then you don't understand the point of their inclusion.

>>43961422

One of them was adopted by aliens. The other was a hideous mutant.

Those are the most straightforward explanations. Remember, the others AGREE with the Emperor's actions. It must have been something awful.

>>43961486

Actually, the slaves were Khorne-tainted.

>>43961492
They didn't every single time. I'm sure most of them got along well. Most of the loyalists are fine, and Horus, Fulgrim, and Alpharius all fit in just fine with their lot. Magnus actually saved his legion from certain doom, in the short term.

>>43961508
Makes sense, they all had the butcher's nails and none of them were god-like Primarchs with superhuman wills. They probably simply could not have been reintegrated into society.

>>43961492

Honestly, only the evil Legions got fucked. The loyalists were fine.

Seriously, all the loyalist Legions had stable Primarchs.

>>43961519
Lion made the terrans second class.
Corax straight purged them.
I am sure proto white scars and proto space wolfs had a hard time adapting too.

>>43961515
I call semi-bullshit on that. If the Emperor knew they were Khorne tainted by the nails then why would he spare Angron who had the exact same shit in his head?

>>43961508
Got proof for that?

>>43961537
Because he had already killed two of his other Primarchs and couldn't afford to lose another? I dunno. Angron is an enormous issue for the HH writers because realistically he should have been dead from the start, but the fluff was there that he was still around and they've kinda fucked around with it.

Again, it's more likely that he just didn't want to deal with 10,000 bloodthirsty ex-slaves with rage-lobotomies so he just took the one he wanted, nothing Khorne related.

>>43961539

The skulls, man. Lorgar uses them as the catalyst in Angron's final transformation. Also, the slaves practiced blood rituals.

Think about it: why would the Emperor NOT save them? Surely they'd be great recruits. It's not like he wanted anything from the planet, just Angron.

Hell, even Lorgar openly asks this question.

>>43961496
Well, in many ways it often seems like that's not the intent, but is still the only real way to read it. I mean from a "show don't tell perspective" we're pretty much told the emperor is 99% flawless and everything was for the good of humanity, but what we're shown is... not really that.

The imperium less so, but we still get occasional times where it seems like whoever wrote it was never told that the space-fascism is supposed to be a BAD thing.

>>43961537
Probably because you can't replace a primarchs and all he needed angron for was to kill. The most heartless thing about the emperor was that he had intentions for all of his children, some of them not the best. Angron and Russ were meant to be his attack dogs. Magnus was intended to be imprisoned in the golden throne to power it. Dorn and Pertuabo were meant to build. Lorgar was to run politics and propaganda, Gulliman was meant to be an administrator, etc so forth.

>>43961537

Because Angron is his son. This is the man who couldn't bear to kill Horus even when Horus was pushing his shit in.

>>43961579

Actually, the Golden Throne wasn't a full-time job. Now, however, you need it to keep the webway portal closed.

>>43961559
>Angron is an enormous issue for the HH writers because realistically he should have been dead from the start, but the fluff was there that he was still around and they've kinda fucked around with it.

This. This seems to be the major problem. The Night of the Wolf incident is a particular problem.
>Wolves sent to retrieve Angron and World Eaters, stop Nails and try and fix those with them
>Fight breaks out, each side blaming the other
>never mentioned again, no follow up, Angron and Legion keep using Nails

What did someone in the Administratum lose a few memos or something?

>>43961570
I think it's really the major overriding problem with HH series.

It's really inconsistent with it's depictions of the Emperor's behaviour.

It wants to simultaneously make the loyalists the good guys while keeping the traitors sympathetic.

It frequently just becomes really headscratching difficult to tell what the fuck certain characters were thinking when they did certain things. The Emperor most of all.

>>43961593
HH is the epitome of it but i really think it's been around from the second they decided 40k should be more serious.

>>43961275

Lorgar is a result of the Emperor's purpose for him and being raised on Colchis by Kor Phaeron.

>>43961570

Eh, I always kind of felt it was the fans who tried to paint the the Emperor as nothing but benevolent.

>>43961537
Because the Emperor purposely orchestrated the heresy so he could become a god in 10,000+ years.
He just wasn't expecting Horus, Fulgrim, and Alpharius to fall

>>43961676

That would explain a bit.

>>43961641
>Eh, I always kind of felt it was the fans who tried to paint the the Emperor as nothing but benevolent.
Well, for stuff like the whole "humans only" deal you have an explanation for the bias: with the fall of the DOAT xenos ditched humanity at best and more frequently went into opportunistic looter mode. So then everything where they DON'T provide some justification for why the emperor acts a certain way feels like if not APPROVAL, they at best didn't spot how terrible he's acting.

This is, of course, before you get into an "inmates running the asylum" deal where 40k's been around long enough that some of the writers were undoubtedly recruited from the ranks of those very fans who paint the emperor as nothing but benevolent.

>>43961440
If you were a german and hitler would have won: great
If you were a human and the emperor had won: great

The only difference between the two cases is that in 40k, the enemies of man are literally subhumans and vile aliens while in the 30s the enemies of hitler were humans too.

>>43961492

In almost all Legions the Terrans were accepted just fine.

>>43961319
>The Emperor's ultimate plan is freedom for everyone.
Not in the slightest. He's unwilling to accept any humans who don't want to remain part of his little Empire, that isn't freedom in any sense of the word.

>>43961519

Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, Sons of Horus and Alpha Legion and Emperors Children had no problem with terran marines.

Only Perturabo and Angron caused problems there.

On the loyal side you got Corax and Lion (who had more problems with the marines from Caliban though).

>stable primarchs

Both sides had stable and unstable primarchs.

Perturabo and Alpharius are just as stable as Dorn or Guilliman

Russ is just as unstable as Angron.
Sanguinius genseed is simply fucked, just like Magnus.

>>43961533
>I am sure proto white scars

In the novel scars its mentioned that almost all white scar recruits were from asian parts of terra (the novel even makes a remark on how outdated that racial selection is in the 30th millenium)
Only some of the terran recruits were white and had trouble to adopt the scars way of fighting/thinking.
Almost all the terrans ended up being lodge members though.

>>43961904
I haven't read the HH books yet, but I keep seeing the Warriors Lodge shit come up in fluff discussions. Anyone got a tl;dr from this?

>>43961569
Even if that theroy is right, he still could have saved them to appease Angron. They would have died soon after anyway, be it from the transformation to a space marine or because they are raging lunatics that charge the enemy without any tactic.
Its not like the Emperor cared about Chaos tainted Marines from a primarches homeworld. Kor Phaeron and Erebus didn't trouble him at all, nor did a bunch of Death Guard dudes.

>>43961704
>with the fall of the DOAT xenos ditched humanity at best and more frequently went into opportunistic looter mode
We have next to no fluff about the DAoT, we don't know if the xenos were harboring millennia-old grudged against humanity for doing the same to them. And considering how humanity acted under the Emperor, it seems reasonable to assume the raiding and pillaging was little more than "goes around comes around"

The Imperium had a chance to break the cycle, starting with the Interex, and they fucked up.

>>43961589
This. One would think Russ would seek to correct that failure some day.
Also the Sigilite would simply send more Legions the next time.

>>43961593
>It wants to simultaneously make the loyalists the good guys while keeping the traitors sympathetic.

It actually does a good job there in my opinion.

>>43961337

Corax accidentally purged his legion because Horus wanted him to make an all out attack instead of sneaking around.

Since the Terrans all had a hardon for Horus they volunteered to throw themselves against the fortress and as a result got all but wiped out.

>>43961917
In general, a Logde was a gathering of members of a Legion where they would talk, drink and share experiences between each other marines from other squats, companies and without any rank.
In the lodge the captain of the 3rd company could sit next to a simple marine of the 35th company and they could share battle stories.

Over time, the Lodge-masters were influenced and replaced by Pro-Horus/Pro-Erebus guys that shifted the spirit of entire Legions towards Horus.

Some Legions had lots of Logdes, others had none.

Spoiler about White Scars/Scars Novel
Near the end of the novel its revealed that nearly half the Legion has been Logde members and the Khan knew and allowed it because he wanted to grant his men freedom.
Nearly 50% of the White scars wanted to side with horus and fighting among the Legion broke out while the Khan was away. When he returned the Lodgemembers gave up (some fled, some comitted suicide) and he forgave them

>>43961939

That's the thing though, Russ acted without Malcador'e consent, that's why there was no follow up, it was strict astartes business

>>43961970
This too, but the slavemaster thing is also mentioned.

>>43961994
That still doesn't explain why Russ just let it rest.

The fight with the Lion still stands between the 2 Legions/Chapters. Russ isn't the forgiving type of Primarch and has a huge ego.

>>43961290
>Little tragedy
>Little difficulty

>Lion grows up from birth on a death world consumed by chaos spawn, only was taken in as a young adult by human civilization.

>Corax was literally a slave.

>Sanguinius also grows up from birth alone on a radioactive death world hellscape.

>Jaghatai and Manus both grow up on war-torn primarchs and while connect with humans at a young age, prosecute brutal primitive wars.

The only loyalist primarchs with cushy lives were Guilliman, Dorn, and Vulkan. All the others had fairly shitty childhoods.

>>43962001

Aye, but it doesn't say he willingly purged his legion because of it. The piece in Extermination makes it clear Corax did not want to send his warriors to their death unnecessarily.

>>43962009
>That still doesn't explain why Russ just let it rest.
He realized he actually couldn't beat Angron

>>43961492
Well for a start they got dads - they might have been abusive assholes, but there's still some kinship there.

Second, it means they've just gotten an incredibly powerful asset to their fighting ability, and a unique one to boot. Even with Angron you get a fairly decent commander and an amazing personal combatant, and he's easily the primarch that did the least for his legion. Plus having a primarch means you can speed up the creation of new marines immensely.

Thirdly, the first primarch was Horus - he provided a shining example of what a primarch can do for a legion. Other good early finds, like Ferrus, reinforced this

>>43961917
To sum it up its like a club for marines to chill out and talk too each other despite what rank they are or what company they are from, then Erebus and other word bearers chaplains visited the lodges to sow the seeds of heresy.

>>43961676
You know, that night do it. Or he wasn't expecting the Heresy when it happened. It explains why he was so willfully "blind"

Would going back in time and putting a bolter round through Erebus' skull change the outcome? Horus would have either died a martyr or survived because he's a superhuman demigod, the interex would have taught them about Chaos and subsequently any mention of heresy would have been met with "er mate, that's chaos"

Emps lives, crusade finishes, let the primarchs rule over bits of the imperium to keep them busy, then he can fuck off back home, finish the golden throne properly negating the need for trips into the warp to get around etc etc.

or is something that ambitious always doomed to fail?

Haven't read any of the HH so I got some questions...What's the deal with Malcador? He seems to be responsible for a lot of the important imperial establishments not the Emperor and I think it's weird. Who is he?


>>43961991
Grorius honourable Mongols. Did they actually just commit sudoku when he returned? Seems a bit easy

>>43962129
You'd need to get rid of easy-e and Kor-Phaeron. Wouldn't hurt to bitch slap Lorgar again via Emprah power afterwards.

>>43962029
>Lion grows up from birth on a death world consumed by chaos spawn, only was taken in as a young adult by human civilization.
Except he is found by a bunch of Knights, who he becomes leader of, and quickly begins pushing the world so hard it changes fro ma death world.

>Corax was literally a slave.
But with a bunch of slaves in mines rather then a bunch of slaves forced to fight and suffering mutilating surgery. Also said slaves had a chance of a rebellion that would actual succeed. Corax was raised by the slaves, Angron just grew up with them.

>Sanguinius also grows up from birth alone on a radioactive death world hellscape.
But quickly becomes the shining beacon of the tribes of Baal and leads them to victory

>Jaghatai and Manus both grow up on war-torn primarchs and while connect with humans at a young age, prosecute brutal primitive wars.
Once again, still had people who helped raise them. Not parental figures but people who did help teach them.

Angron and Curze are the only Primarchs who grew up without any real bonds. Curze grew up on a world filled with criminals whilst Angron grew up in a world where he had to fight for his life for the amusement of others.

>>43962297
>Once again, still had people who helped raise them. Not parental figures but people who did help teach them.

Khan had a father, his death was what turned him towards war with the other civilization.

>>43961496
The interex were destroyed by Erebus design, they knew what chaos was about and that they should always be on guard of its taint, if the interex were assimilated into the Imperium they would probably become the Emperor's greatest allies against chaos.

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>>43962129
I wonder how the Emperor would deal with the Interex. I'm pretty sure He is imposing enough to bring them into the Imperium. And with the combined technology of both factions, Big E would conquer the Galaxy with ease. And even if the Horus Heresy still happens, at least the Imperium wouldn't be a theocratic hellhole, and machines could actually work without a machine spirit in every lightswitch. The Interex-stuff seemed to work pretty well without holy oils, incenses and prayers.

Also, pic related for Erebus

>>43961539
On the butcher's nails audio book the dark eldars or corsair prince tells lorgar that "the machine bends one soul to the eightfold path", let's remember that Angron wasn't particularly tainted like the others, but was forced into apotheosis by the word bearers.

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>>43961492
Also: "I have this piece of Archeotech in me, that literally destroys my brain. But I am your Primarch, so you shall have it too. No complains, or I'll kill ya."

>>43962173
He's the Emperor's Chancellor, mysterious dude and ~3rd most powerful psyker in the imperium.

He set up the inquistion during the heresy, and was head of the administratum, making him the second most powerful individual in the empire after Big E himself, and he appears to have been pure human

He died in the Golden Throne, powering it while Horus and the Emperor fought on the Vengeful Spirit

>>43961593

The Last Church pretty much shows that Emperor is a violent dick. His only enemies that have the power to stop him just happen to be the same way.

>>43961844

Emperor's minions could well be called subhuman too as a matter of perspective, the Spirit of Eternity (a Dark Age AI that fucked up a bunch of Marines and Admech) does exactly that while praising its Dark Age human crew who were killed as heretics while trying to warn 40k humans about Chaos' victory in the future.

>>43962065
>>43961917
>>43961991

Tl;dr: space freemasons, avoid or you'll become chaos.

>>43962453
Also fun fact, he told the Emperor to be more of a father to his sons and even suggested some female Primarchs. The Emperor laughed. So not only was he right, but he would have given us buff battle maidens...Malcador truly was the hero of the Imperium

>>43962492

I have no idea why people keep talking about The Last Church. The story is about as subtle as a sledgehammer, and it's horribly written. I mean, it's just a terrible story all around.

Just compare Abnett's Emperor, ADB's Emperor to Graham McNeil's rather retarded version of him.

>>43961145
Cuz Space marines are made for war and war only. They do not serve any other purpose.
They can wish to be something else, even try, but when it comes down to it, they're just killing machines. It's what they do best. Even in peaceful times, they cannot stop thinking about things the way a tactician preparing for war would do.

Angron hates the Emperor because having been a slave, he knows all too well what being forced to fight against his will means.
Personally, Angron is probably the one who eschews both the emperor and chaos.

After all it was lorgar to basically force his transformation in demon prince with a ritual, Angron himself never praised khorne, thing that instead kharn does

The real fuck up was the emperor losing the primarchs and having them scattered across the galaxy. There, they grew up thinking they could be something different from the war machines they were. It gave them the illusion of being actual people.

>>43961319

The Emperor murdered the Thunder Warriors, his first attempt at improving mankind. He never wanted freedom, just control

>>43962674
>First attempt at improving mankind

The thunder warriors were never an attempt to improve mankind. they were no more than machines for the purpose of uniting humanity under the Emperor.
Thunder warriors were never created to last. Their own altered biology killed them in a span of few years.

After the people on Terra was united, there were no more need of barely controllable killing machines, so they were just eliminated

>>43962451

I like that greentext

>>43962674
>murderrred
he supercharged some pre-existing techno barbarians until they after ten thousand years conquered earth

techno-barbarians did not have long lives to begin with

>>43961145

Angron would have been so goddamn easy to meet on better terms. He was obviously motivated by honour, just take down a few dozen custodes and help him curbstomp the slavers. He probably would have been more inclined to help the emperor

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>>43961145
"Hans... are we the baddies?"
>Primarchs of the II and XI legions

>>43962173
Basically if Horus was master of the Empire's armies then Malcador was in charge of the civilian and administrative aspects. This makes him sound bland but he's also the one of the strongest psykers in the setting, founded what would become the Inquisition and Gray Knights.

>>43961641
>Eh, I always kind of felt it was the fans who tried to paint the the Emperor as nothing but benevolent.

This. All the 'the Emperor is perfect and truly loved everyone' is written entirely from the Imperial perspective. It's propaganda.

Remember, 40K is not a sermon on the merits of fascism. It was created in the 80's by a bunch of anti-establishment, anti-fascism, anti-religion British nerds. Everything the Imperium and the Emperor does is supposed to be a hyperbolic criticism of mankind's worst aspects. The Emperor is mankind at best and worst, and, as 40K is primarily pessimistic, the worst outweighs the best. He hates aliens not for practical reasons, but because he sees himself as perfect and they're not like him. He wants to rule the galaxy because he's too proud not to. He constantly makes mistakes because, despite his brilliance, he's blinded by hubris and bigotry. He has the ability to enact vast, amazing changes and bring sweeping advancements, but he stumbles over interpersonal relationships and lacks a true understanding of himself and others. He refuses to consider that anyone else could be right, even if they very plainly are, because they're not him.

The Emperor is a villain. He broke the galaxy. His model for rulership destroyed far better models, gave Chaos its greatest champions, and continues to strengthen it by creating an environment of such suffering that submission to monstrous eldritch gods is seen by many as a better alternative to the constant pitiless grind of Imperial rule. None of this would change if he were still alive, because we know he treated people like so much garbage even when he was at his peak.

>>43961145
The problem with the Horus Heresy series is that the three authors can't make up their minds on how the emperor behaves.

Graham Mcneil says the emperor is a benevolent,competent and well meaning guy with the parenting skills of a potato.

Dan Abnett reckons the emperor is a ruler like Alexander the Great who isn't evil as much as he is very, VERY ruthless who hasn't quite figured out he's a parent and treats his children like military subordinates.

Meanwhile Aaron Dembski-Bowden tells the emperor as such a massive jerk wad and vicious petty asshole that it's amazing that Horus only managed to turn HALF of the primarchs in his rebellion.

>>43962930
Maybe the books were written from different perspectives?

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>>43962827
You have no idea what you're on about. The setting evolved into this brutally silly shit over the course of years. The original Space Marines were doughnut munching space cops for fucks sake, and the greatest champion of the Ultramarines was half Eldar.

I still remember the dancing competition poster.

>>43962957
I never got that vibe. I mean if Logar is all like, "I rerember what the Emperor did to my planet! He bombed it into ashes and made me bow to you Robute!" and Robute says "The fuck you on about mate, that never happened" then I think that would be the case.

But the characterization swings wildly between authors so I think they just didn't talk to each other.

>>43962968
Yes, the setting started off very camp.

But the Emperor was always a cunt and the Imperium a fascistic nightmare. Just because there was more 80's silliness, bright coloration and Doctor Who referencing doesn't mean these themes didn't also exist.

>>43962989
Oh my god Robute Gulliman speaking in a Chav British accent.

>>43962297
Manus had no one. What are you even talking about.

He was already a man when he first spoke to another human being.

>>43963004

> Oi, listen up you fookin mooks. We gotta chop up the legions innit? They too bloody strong, gonna roll every one of us cunts

>>43962607
I mean that's the thing. I think a lot of people are ascribing a lot more narrative clout to the HH than is actually there.

The Emperor isn't being seen from different perspectives, he's being written inconsistently by mediocre writers.

>>43961145
Honestly? All the Primarchs strike me as having very weak personalities. It's not surprise they were such easy prey for Chaos. I can't help but think that a young Roboute or Russ would be totally fucked in any kind of allegorical tale that requires strength of character or resistance of despair, like Over the Garden Wall or some such. They just seem impotent as people, no matter how physically amazing they are.

It's possible Emps made them genetically inclined to rationalize and ignore things they didn't like when he was involved.

>>43963002
Yeh, the Emperor was a massive control freak, and an arrogant pile, but the problem is that Canon is so loose and contradictory it's not funny. In lore there are people trying to justifty the Burning of Purabato despite the fact he never ordered it.
As a result it's almost impossible to figure shit out. It's also possible he saw the Horus Heresy coming and it's the best possible result he could come up with.

TL;DR dude was Julius Caesar IN SPACE!

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>>43963051
Fucking beautiful

>>43963053
Just like there are three discussions in this thread and one of them agrees with you. No ones talking to each other.

>>43963054
There are some good ones.

Khan, Vulkan, Ferrus, Alpharius (???), Corax, and even Horus really.

>>43963083
Yes, almost exactly like that.

>>43963086
It seems weird that Vulkan, Sanguinius, and Corax were so down with Big E.

Didn't they hate slavery and injustice nearly as much as Angron? I absolutely cannot imagine Sanguinius purging a world of peaceful non-Imperials in the Emperor's name.

Vulkan is best Primarch

>>43963027
Ferrus is a weird primarch. All the others have parent figures, but he apparently just lived on his own for the early part of his life and only started the taking over his planet thing after a potentially over a decade of just beating up giant monsters alone in the wilderness.

>>43961145
>How is it that Angron, who is crippled with blood thirst in battle, the only one who ever looked at the Imperium this way?
Because he was the only primarch who became the bitch of his world instead of its king

>>43963164
>Ferrus is the best primarch

Fixed it for you anon

>>43963112
>Didn't they hate slavery and injustice nearly as much as Angron?
They also didn't have the singleminded, bloody approach to all things he did.
Each of them had the resources and wherewithal to approach a resistant planet with guile and cunning, rather than full boots on the ground approach.

>>43962968
I actually liked this version of 40k better. There was distrust and animosity between the races, but at times they could still get along.

They GW decided no, it's all armies and war every day, and no filthy xenos allowed.

Orks used to have societies and trade with humans etc.

Now works are just this 1 dimensional Waaagh character 100% of the time.

Eldar are so all knowing they're not even relatable except on the battlefield.

Everything is soldiers! soldiers! soldiers!

You used to have scenarios where the space marines were protecting citizens from orks. Now they wouldn't bother unless it's a whole hive fleet or something. Now it's Exterminatus or nothing!

>>43963284
This is actually one of the reasons I really like the Newcrons. Took a one dimensional spooky robot race that was just another ticking time bomb that would never go off race and turned them into actual people, at least some of them.

Now they're the most rational fucking race in the whole setting.

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Go Bibi or go home

>>43963308
Newcrons are both the 2nd funniest race and also the closest to a protagonist in the setting

>>43963164
Curze, Angron, and Lion all lacked parent figures as well

>>43962968
It looks like that man is being buggered to me

>>43962989
No, as in some people see only the good sides of the Emps and some only see his bad sides.

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>>43963320
>Newcron master race

>>43963344
And some were actually able to see both, like Khan.

>>43963336
Its been a while since I payed any attention to the Dark Angels but wasn't Luther a father figure to the Lion? Or was he more of a brother/comrade?

>>43963396
Yeah, but only after 10 year of Lion living alone innawoods.

>>43963396
He was a bro. Jonson spent his formative years alone in the wilderness.

Fulgrim, Corax, Russ, Sanguinius, and Horus all basically saw the Emperor as their father figure.

Jaghatai Khan had Yesugei and Ong Khan

Perturabo had the Dammekos

Dorn had his "grandfather" (probably the strongest bond)

Ferrus saw fathers as WEAK FLESH THINGS

Roboute had Konor and his seneschal lady who was basically his mother

Mortarion had that Warp spawn tyrant guy (reason he's so fucked)

Magnus had Amon

Lorgar had Kor Phaeron

Vulkan had N'bel

Fuck knows what Alpharius' is

>>43961924
...he had no idea they were chaos tainted or they'd have been burned

>>43961290
>I've always found the traitors more relaitable

>Curze growing up alone on a world filled with violent criminals

Unlike you.

>Angron raised in slave fights

Unlike you.

>Lorgar had his ideals destroyed by the very man he idolized.

Maybe, but not anywhere near the same scale as you.

>Meanwhile most loyalists suffered little tragedy or difficulties.

Just like you!

Wait, how does that relatable thing go again?

>>43963449
People often misinterpret what Ferrus was all about. Weak flesh is kind of a misinterpretation of what he's saying. He didn't bother having a dad because he was too hardcore for that, and he expected the same of all his sons. It's not that the flesh is weak, it's that you are weak and you need to step the fuck up every goddamn day or you're living your life wrong.

>>43963192
Correct.
>"Rest? We were not made to rest; we go on, unflinching, unstoppable, unending in our strength. The Emperor did not make us for such mortal concerns as hearth and home, vanity or contemplation; we are his engines of war, his hammers, beating out the fabric of existence into a vessel fit for Mankind to inhabit."

>>43963502
LOL. A+ for missing his point. Relateable as in portrayed more realistically so you might sympathize, empathize or understand - relate to the fictional character.

For a character to be relateable doesn't mean you have to have lived the same life.

>>43962968
>The original Space Marines were doughnut munching space cops for fucks sake

False. Space Marines then were much the same as they are now.

>I still remember the dancing competition poster.

That was from a third party, not Games Workshop.

>>43963086
>Khan, Vulkan, Ferrus, Alpharius (???), Corax, and even Horus really.

How can you say any of them were good?
Alpharius and Horus prved to be weak of character and fell to Chaos.
Ferrus succumbed to his own rage and died for it even his sons know he was weak.
Corax fell to despair and vanished, leaving the Imperium to its fate. Vulkan just buggered off but took the time to leave a treasure hunt.

>>43963566
Relatable is about relating to something.
You cannot possibly relate to the life of a slave gladiator more than the life of someone normal.
You can at best pity them.

>>43963637
Horus did what he thought was right. I think it shows enormous strength of character that he was willing to take the stand for what he believed in. He wasn't goaded into becoming a traitor like the others, and even though he was deceived into being a servant of Chaos, his motivations for revolting were still his own.

Ferrus Manus witnessed the undoing of his legion, the betrayal of his closest brother, and the potential ruin of everything he had worked for. His rage was justifiable and was not the reason for his death. His sons are misguided by their own misinterpretation of Ferrus' teachings, he actively admitted this.

Corax and Vulkan are caveats of writing. They had to make all the Primarchs gone, but disappearing them all into the Webway/Eye of Terror is just a little too far.

Alpharius is totally enigmatic. We don't know if he's even still a loyalist or not.

>>43963704
Also, when I said "Good" I simply meant not as autistic and incapable of critical thinking.

>>43963704
>Horus did what he thought was right.

When he was dying he revealed all of his insecurities. He was a weak man.

>He wasn't goaded into becoming a traitor like the others, and even though he was deceived into being a servant of Chaos, his motivations for revolting were still his own.

He was tainted in a ritual. At the end when he could see clearly he begged forgiveness.

>Ferrus Manus witnessed the undoing of his legion, the betrayal of his closest brother, and the potential ruin of everything he had worked for. His rage was justifiable and was not the reason for his death.

His rage was justifiable and understandable, but that he could not master it shows that he was not strong. It led to his death, he could have fallen back and survived, but his anger did not allow it.

>His sons are misguided by their own misinterpretation of Ferrus' teachings, he actively admitted this.

His teachings are irrelevant, thy recognise that he was weak.

>Corax and Vulkan are caveats of writing.

Not really. They could have gone like Sanguinius, Guilliman or Dorn, bloody and thrashing.

>Alpharius is totally enigmatic. We don't know if he's even still a loyalist or not.

He's Chaos. At the very least he led his Legion to Chaos. He's probably the weakest of them all.

>>43963885
But was it Alpharius or Omegon who led them to Chaos? Which one died?

>>43963923
>But was it Alpharius or Omegon who led them to Chaos?

Both.

>Which one died?

Maybe both, or neither. There's nothing supporting that either died.

>>43961145
>Angron was a libertarian
Confirmed for worst Primarch.

>>43963885
>His rage was justifiable and understandable, but that he could not master it shows that he was not strong. It led to his death, he could have fallen back and survived, but his anger did not allow it.

He really couldn't have. You can't just turn away from a fight, especially when you're surrounded in the middle of a battlefield. He had the upper hand on Fulgrim until the Pheonician pulled his demon blade. At that point there was nothing Ferrus could have done.

>His teachings are irrelevant, thy recognise that he was weak.

His teachings are entirely relevant, they only thought he was weak because of them.

>Not really. They could have gone like Sanguinius, Guilliman or Dorn, bloody and thrashing.

Yes really. That's the only reason they just disappear rather than fighting, it's just to mix up the list of Primarchs so they don't all have the same reasons for not being around by 40k. It's not profound, it's just the way they decided to write it.

>He's Chaos. At the very least he led his Legion to Chaos. He's probably the weakest of them all.

LaughingAlphaLegionnaire.jpg

>>43963941
>Both
There's evidence to the contrary.

>>43964074
>He really couldn't have.

Yes he could.

>You can't just turn away from a fight, especially when you're surrounded in the middle of a battlefield.

Others escaped. Ferrus threw himself further into the trap.

>He had the upper hand on Fulgrim until the Pheonician pulled his demon blade.

Irrelevant. Even if he had managed to kill Fulgrim, which was far from certain, he would still be cut off and alone.

>His teachings are entirely relevant, they only thought he was weak because of them.

And because he proved himself to be weak. Anger clouded his judgement and got the best of him.

>Yes really.

No, really.

> it's just to mix up the list of Primarchs so they don't all have the same reasons for not being around by 40k. It's not profound, it's just the way they decided to write it.

It doesn't need to be profound, but it does tell us about the character of the Primarchs.

>LaughingAlphaLegionnaire.jpg

Please provide a point.

>There's evidence to the contrary.

Not really. Even if one did not intentionally mean to do so, they still brought it about by enforcing the structure and methodology of the Legion.

>>43963682
When I was forced into the National Spelling Bee (fighting pits) those who couldn't spell (fight) were sent home (died agonizing deaths). I spelled (fought) my way to the top ranks and won (holding aloft my enemies skulls). Only to be signed up again (forced to fight) by my parents (slave owners). Eventually I hope to turn 18 (win my freedom) and never spell again competitively (fight as a gladiator).

Of course I can relate to a slave gladiator life.

Everything is relateable.

>>43964175
Nah, that would just be you acting like a whiny little shit.

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>>43964175
Better to die illiterate than spell submission.

>>43964208
Just like Angron?
>>43964272
I laughed a little.

>>43961533
It was actually the reverse - the Lion didn't trust most Calibanite marines, and left them on Caliban while he went off with the Terrans. Unless the reason he left them there was because he trusted them the most and thought that the Terrans would need him to be there personally. Either way, it's a little sad that means that nothing of Caliban really remains - not even the geneseed of actual people from Caliban.

>>43961492
Dark angels, raven guard, death guard.

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>>43962453
And such an amazing guy only ever got the crappiest tank named after him.

>>43961893
>Russ is just as unstable as Angron

I don't see Russ as unstable at all. In Prospero Burns they talk about how they purposefully encourage the air of being wild and insane despite the fact they are far from it to scare their enemies.

>>43963505
What about this quote?

>They are not my hands.

>This fact is forgotten by my brothers - inexplicably, it has always seemed to me. The hands are strong, to be sure, and have created great things for us all, but they are not mine. And that counts for something.They forget that the silver on my arms comes from a beast that I vanquished. It is the mark of a great evil that I ended, and yet it persists within me... I would struggle to remove it now... I will not remove the silver from my flesh because I have learned to depend on it. The fault is with my mind. I rely on the augmentation given to me by my metal gauntlets, so much so that the flesh beneath them is now little more than a distant memory...

>A day will come when I will strip it from me, lest I lose the power to master myself forever. Already my Legion's warriors replace their shield hands with metal in my honour, and so they too are learning to doubt the natural strength of their bodies. They must be weaned off this practice before it becomes a mania for them. Hatred of what is natural, of what is human, is the first and greatest of the corruptions. So I record it here: when the time comes, I will strip my hands of their unnatural silver. I will instruct my Legion to recant their distrust of the flesh. I will turn then away from the gifts of the machine and bid them relearn the mysteries of flesh, bone and blood. When my father's Crusade is over, this shall be my sacred task. When the fighting is done, I shall cure my Legion and myself. For if fighting is all there is, if we may never pause to reflect on what such devotion to strength is doing to us, then our compulsion will only grow. Already I see the madness that path leads to, and so I shall excise the silver from my hands. In doing so I shall weaken myself and my sons, but nonetheless it must be done. The hands are strong, and have created great things, but they are not mine.

>>43965726
That's exactly what I mean.

He's about constantly improving yourself, but yourself personally. The flesh can be as strong as any iron, you just have to earn it.

>>43961593
ADB's daddy issues don't help

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>>43961427

>>43962297
>Except he is found by a bunch of Knights, who he becomes leader of, and quickly begins pushing the world so hard it changes fro ma death world.

And Fulgrim was a factory worker who became an Executive if his homeworld, Magnus was raised as an Academic, Lorgar was raised as a Priest and Perturabo was wandering Warrior/Engineer. All Rose to positions of power.

Lion arguably had one of the worst childhoods among the Primarch because he was fighting Chaosspawn and Mutated Horrors from the moment his pod landed on Caliban and didn't encounter another human til he was almost fully grown.

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>>43966250
>Fulgrim was a factory worker

That explains a lot actually

>>43962173
there are some theories that he was the true "new man" and leading from behind the scenes, while the emperor was a shiny golden god figure he made.

>>43966091
I find it kind of sad - I don't think Angron will ever find that freedom he was searching for, because even as he frees himself of the Emperor's grip he's tied to Horus, or later shackled to Khorne. There's always going to be something ruling over him, and he's never going to respect anyone else for long because he feels no one can understand him - see how he treats his own legion, on both sides.

Angron is a bitch.

>>43963592

No Dumbass, the original Rogue Trader Space Marines were literally space Cops.

>>43967045
Hahaha, you've not actually read Rogue Trader, have you?

>>43967045
>>43967070
40k newfag here. Can someone explain rouge trader to me?

>>43967198
Rogue Trader, anon. It was the rules and lore for the earliest incarnation of the 40k setting, back in the 80s. Very different tone and ideas from today - more light-hearted, more strongly based off of WFB, ect.

>>43967198
A rouge trader is someone who trades in a specific type of cosmetic, typically used by women to redden their cheeks so that they appear more youthful. "Rouge" derives from the French word rouge which means red.

>>43967264
I get that, but got any examples of stories or fluff from it? The wiki just links to either a description of actual Rogue Traders or mentions pretty much what you said

>>43967288
It's pretty much just 40k, but a more primitive form of it.

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>>43967288
This is a good example of RT-era fluff.

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>>43967380
Or this.

>>43967380
>>43967414
sounds autistic as fuck

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>>43967474
>autistic

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>>43967527
>Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau
>not autistic

>>43967621
You're gonna have to describe what autistic means to you, anon.

>>43967642
On this whole site it just means "something I don't like", pretty much the same as "dumb", come on.

Not that it is a good thing.

>>43967788
Even the loosest use of the word is generally limited to describing some demands of adherence to overly particular standards. Your use as a generic perjorative doesn't fit at all. Amd if you don't think the misuse of the phrase is a good thing, why the fuck did you do it?

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I think part of the Horus Heresy's problem was that it was looking at a lot of things in the moment. Not only is this a narrower perspective limited to certain characters, it doesn't give the same sense of things as when looking back.

Take a look at pic related - the Emperor in there is despairing, having only realized the many mistakes he made too late. He was confident he could not fail, but in the end he did see the folly of his mistakes. But at the same time, he is still a strong, decisive leader, and not yet unnecessarily cruel.

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>>43968725
I don't know if it's smart to cling to older fluff like I do and try to claim it's better, but I do feel that stuff like this shows a more human Emperor - not a perfect one, and not even necessarily a good one, but at least he's more than a distant bag of dicks.

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>Goes to kill his stepfather
>Passes out like a bitch before the fight even starts
>Emps saves his ass
>Angry at Emps forever about this
>Ends up as one of the main reasons he shows loyalty to Horus over Emps

The Death Guard are my favorite Traitor Legion but I never got this. Mortarion is shown as very impersonal when it comes to dealing with things. Why was he always so butthurt about this?

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>>43961145
I feel like Perturabo shared semi-similar thoughts. Everyone treated him like shit, but he did his duty anyways. He was more disciplined than Angron, which meant he wasn't shouting out to the heavens that he hated his father, but he clearly despised the fact that everything was senseless violence and genocide when all he wanted to do was build.

>>43968742
>terminator
>not ollanius pius
Ah, I remember when mentioning Pius in the 40K Background subforum of Warseer was an instant ban.
>>43968777
Because they needed to give him any reason at all for him to jump ship and Mortarion was never the best characterized Primarch.

>>43968904
>Ah, I remember when mentioning Pius in the 40K Background subforum of Warseer was an instant ban.

As it should be, retards always get his story wrong.

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>>43968777
It's one of the very strange and very personal things about Mortarion, I thin. He hates tyrants and bullies, and was probably angry at the big E for having taken away this moment he had literally worked from nothing for.

Even his own Legion didn't really agree with him, since about a third of the Death Guard was still loyal to the Emperor. I think that was more than any other Traitor Legion.

>>43966416
Top kek

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>>43967288

>M-Muh misunderstood Angron
>M-Muh innocents.

Oh yes, I forgot how his "Freedom" was bought by a bloody coup of the local Planatery leaders and their civilisation.
This is literally the pot calling the kettle black.
Jesus /tg/ why do you fall for this stupidity.

>>43962297
>Except he is found by a bunch of Knights, who he becomes leader of, and quickly begins pushing the world so hard it changes fro ma death world.

Apart from Mortarion, this is literally the worst fucking story of any Primarch ever.

The guy basically lives on a chaotic hell world until he's a young adult, fighting against some of the strongest mutated wildlife that ever existed in the galaxy, and the only humans he ever really has contact with is Fatalistic knights who only manage to carve out a lasting peace and happiness by literally scouring a planet clean.

See, the points you make prove how fucking stupid you are.

The Lion grows up on super mega deathhell as Tarzan, WITHOUT apes to raise him, and all that comes of it is he's untrusting of people alot while being almost the perfect Primarch.

Magnus, Lorgar and Fulgrim grow up among people in cushy safe little enviroments and they become the most spoiled weakest willed little shits ever.

That's the traitor Primarchs, they were the WEAKER Primarchs.

Hell, we'll even use the much hated Russ.

Russ was a barbaric sod, he was egotistical and rowdy and did alot of things wrong. But instead of whining about "OH I COULD BE A MORE MORAL MAN" he tried to be a moral fucking man. Angron just sat there with dildos in his head and cried.

>>43968895
You should always draw Parallels with Perturabo and the Lion.

Both effectively had Social Problems. The Lion diffused this by simply being aloof.

Perturabo was a passive aggresive cuntrag.

>>43962129
This post makes me wonder. What's the smallest change you could make to the 40k backstory to get a much better result? What one, single change could derail things from the grimdark the most?

>>43969495
The Lion is made Warmaster.

Horus is no longer burdened and given too much power.

Lorgar is bitch slapped down and the Lion never trusts a single word bearer.

Pert is probably killed off for insolence.

Russ shown his place.

Curze and Angron killed for being literally assholes with no redeeming qualities.

>>43969573
>Russ shown his place

At the right hand of the emperor

>>43969573
Why not make Sanguinius Warmaster like Horus wanted?

>>43969495
Ork chokes the emperor to death on Ullanor.

>>43969952
Sanguinius was a bit too much of a bleeding Heart, Lion was a bit of a cold hearted motherfucker.

Sanguinus would try to reason with Curze or Angron and not rise to kill them.

Lion would kill them without a second hesitation, the only Primarchs he liked were Khan and Corvus really.

>>43969952
Sanguinius is the most loyal mother fuck in the universe. If anyone is ever crowned Warmaster, it should be him, or Rowboat.
Love him or hate him, Rowboat gets results.

>>43970012
Rowboat has the problem of being Lion lite.

Also too obsessed with pencil pushing.

>>43970012
I wonder if in a non-Heresy scenario where Rowboat climbed to the top he would try to expand Ultramar rather than the Imperium.

>>43969952
Sanguinius didnt have the resolve Horus did, Sanguinius was plagued by doubt as he was tainted by chaos and a mutant. Everyone loved them both but Sanguinius wouldnt be able to command his brothers like Horus did and Horus saw the strengths of everyone and implemented that into his own legion, Sanguinius didnt.

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>>43969972

>>43970056
>>43970057
Again, love him or hate him, he pulled the Imperium back from the brink and made it sable enough to last 10,000 years.

As for weather he'd work more on the Ultramar, rather than the Imperium, thats debatable.

>>43962129
But the Emperor knew about Chaos. He decided to not share the information to the primarchs for some reason. He probably though ignorance was better and planned to complete the human webway before Chaos could start shit.

>Interex
I don't know why people drone on it constantly. It was just filler as to how Horus got corrupted.
And they would never fare well on a larger scale. They were doing literally everything wrong
>allying to Xenos
>having no true grasp about Chaos but displaying Chaos tainted artifacts for anyone to see
>possibly using AI

>>43970012
Sanguinius almost gave into chaos to save his legion from the red thirst. Only some apocathary sacrificing himself saved Sanguinius. As for Rowboat his whole "imperium seccondus" reeked of treason.

Russ is the most loyal to the emperor and it's not even close.

>>43966416
Is Fulgrim a homosex?

>>43970170
>As for Rowboat his whole "imperium seccondus" reeked of treason.

Bull fucking shit.
Guilliman and the Ultras are canonically the most loyal.

>>43970056
This. Guilliman and El'Jonson were the best generals in the traditional sense. If either were alone, or working only with each other, the galaxy would belong to humanity. But they weren't alone, and neither of them could lead the other Primarchs out of a wet paper bag. Only Horus or possibly Sanguinius could be everything the Warmaster needed to be.

>>43970170
Not very treasonous. He was absolutely loathe to put himself in the place of the Emperor and basically begged the two Primarchs that turned up (Russ and then Sanguinus, I think?) to be the Regents instead so no-one would say that he was trying to take over from his father. He just wanted something of the Imperium, of his father's goal, to survive what seemed like it could very well be his death and the Imperium's collapse.

>>43970170
The Imperium Seccondus was made because they didn't fucking know if the real Imperium still existed. Remember that show 'galaxy torn in half' thing?
Its always good to have a fall back plan.

>>43970170
>consolidating loyalist forces to either reinforce Terra with a huge army or defend the remaining Imperium if it fell, instead of suiciding through Warp storms is treason
And it's the Lion who is the most loyal, not Russ. Even then, Sanguinius and Guilliman are on the same level. And Russ clearly didn't implement his loyalty to his marines, seeing how they probably have the highest number of traitors of any first founding Chapter.

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>>43970346
>Guilliman and the Ultras are canonically the most loyal.

>>43970338
Yes, he and Ferrus were BFs

>>43970347
Honestly if the only Primarchs were them and the Dauntless Few it wouldn't even be a challenge

>>43970411
Do you have any reason for shitting on canon?

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>>43970407
The problem is the Lion's loyalty went beyond anything else - he didn't care how anyone perceived him or his actions.

Why was he so loyal to the big E, anyway? He had a good relationship with Luther up until their big fight.

>>43970407
What are you smoking? Dark Angels obviously have more traitors.

>>43961440
It was though jewboy.

>>43970407
>consolidating loyalist forces
That was exactly the problem. He was hording troops that could have actually been fighting. That's why when the Word Bearers were fucking up Calth one of their objectives was to ensure Rowboat survived because if he died whoever took over would have took the survivors to Terra.

>>43970364
I can get behind Sanguinius as Emperor, everyone loved that guy.

But now imagine Russ as Emperor...

>>43970571
>That was exactly the problem. He was hording troops that could have actually been fighting.

No he wasn't.
Anyone who came there was either washed up by the Storm or arrived of their own volition.

>That's why when the Word Bearers were fucking up Calth one of their objectives was to ensure Rowboat survived

Actually they were told to kill him.

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>>43970407
>Lion El'Jonson
>more loyal than Russ

>>43970537
Meant post heresy. Even then, one of the FW books has a whole Grand Company turning traitor.

>>43970571
But they couldn't effectively and safely reinforce Terra without suffering horrible losses and arriving disorganized.
There were 3 primarchs with their legions in Imperium Secundus. Only the Blood Angels came to Terra, probably with some plot device that helped them navigate the storms. Guilliman and the autistically loyal Lion stayed, because that was the only option.

>>43970637
Russ knew what he was, that's why he didn't get butt hurt when Horus got chosen as Warmaster (cough Lion, Perty, Rowboat cough) I don't think he would accept the role of emperor.

>>43970426
>canonically the most loyal
Literally IH, Wolf-wolf, and IF ahead of them in terms of loyalty.

>>43970772
Literally not.
Ultras are #1 in loyalty, fluff says so.

>>43970772
There's a reason Horus made rather dramatic arrangements just to keep the Ultramarines out of his hair, man.

>>43970791
Stop posting Marenus

>>43970852
Yeah, they were the largest legion.

He also went to lengths to tie up other loyal legions
>Ordered Russ to attack Magnus
>Sent the Lion to some remote warzone
>Sent Sangunius to get ambushed by daemons

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>>43970856
>>43970899
They are most loyal.
Canon.

>>43961533
This guy considers The Lion stable, let alone loyal.

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>>43970852
>Horus
>hair

>>43970951
Once again Matt Ward, the Ultramarines were the largest legion out there, of course they posed a huge threat to Horus.

>>43961939
>some day.

Ummm... who is to say he didn't intent to, but you know... Galactic Civil War and that whole being missing for 10,000 years while the other guy is a Daemon Primarch thing.

>>43970995
Read it instead of trying to throw insults.
>the Ultramarines, staunchest of all the Emperor's Legions

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So, let's say there was no actual Horus Heresy - the only Legions that went rogue were the Night Lords, the Word Bearers, and maybe the World Eaters, since they were going to go rogue or berserk anyway. And because there was no united Heresy, all the Legions are still more or less at full strength.

Would this be cool, or not cool?

>>43970899
It wasn't just them being large, but loyal and well organized.

>>43970981
>horus turned traitor not because of chaos corruption, but one too many jokes at his baldness

>>43971075
Emperor sends his loyal Legions to deal with the rogue Legions, and the traitors get their shit kicked in. After that, the Great Crusade continues like before.

>>43971172
>Emperor declares Horus a hairetic because of his distinct lack of glorious flowing locks

>>43971075
I had this idea of a variant Heresy where Horus is hardheaded and hotblooded enough that he dispenses with all the skullduggery and shifting of forces and instead goes back to Terra, glasses it, and yells COME AT ME EMPS across the galaxy. The Emprah goes in whatever he can scrounge and things go down as in fluff, but now all of the Legions are at full strength and none have even been given the chance to go traitor. In my head it plays out like Legend of the Five Rings, with all these noble houses nominally under the same liege (an Imperial Steward that in theory rules the Imperium in the Emprah's stead) but are effectively autonomous states that politick and war against each other. Crank down on Chaos and rampant xenophobia and focus on human vs human conflict. I think I'd also tune space marine implants way down but make their implantation easier, so that the Astartes noble class would be more wide spread but still killable by unaugmented humans if caught out of armor.

>>43971059
you forgot to highlight
>the foremost warriors of the Legiones Astartes

are those from FW's book? or the Visions series? It's been forever since I read the latter, and I know it had some similar stuff inside.

>>43970437
Honour
It's a concept understood instinctively by most men, even if most don't follow it

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>>43971238
>>43971172
There was a thread about that subject. All of the loyalists besides Vulkan had hair. All of the traitors were bald. Fulgrim was possessed by a daemon but became bald as a daemon. Konrad had bad hair care. Seriously. Look at the sketch of him. Magnus was a ginger but has a soul to be a psyker.

>>43971291
You're going to have to spell this out for me, since I'm not following why Lion would be so driven to honor an oath to a golden space man who just showed up suddenly.

>>43971278
>you forgot to highlight
>>the foremost warriors of the Legiones Astartes

Well not quite forgot, that image was to show their loyalty rather than martial prowess.

>are those from FW's book?

Yup. Betrayal at Calth.

>>43971334
He's a knight who's loyal to his lord and father no matter what.

>>43961145
You'll notice even the mighty ADB lightly skipped over the "eldar attack" part of the Angron story because key to Angron's story is him being a slave and the idea that _any_ primarch gets put in shackles and kept there is totally out of line with the rest of the canon.

>>43971257
This isn't a bad thing.

>>43971238
>pert: bald
>lorgar: bald
>angron: bald
>magnus: ginger
>horus: bald
>alpharius: bald
>Fulgrim turned traitor because he picked up a daemon weapon
>Kurze was only half-turned thanks to his hair
>Mortarion almost not convinced by Horus, and eventually betrayed to chaos by his lieutenant
baldness is canonically the cause of heresy

I think the only reason Vulkan was loyal is because he's black.

>>43971304
So are most marines post-heresy being bald symbolic of the fact that they have lost the truth that the Emperor followed in all the dogma of the Imperium?

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reminder that Dark Angels are khornates

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>Ultramarines were the foremost warriors of the Legiones Astartes.
Weren't the Luna Wolves the Ultramarines of 30k in the way they are in 40k?
>>43971409
Maybe but Horus did make Emps lose his hair so maybe they shave their heads out of respect for the Emperor?

>>43971449
More like they are actually Sangunius' sons and Lion got keked in the gene laboratories.

>>43971450
>Weren't the Luna Wolves the Ultramarines of 30k in the way they are in 40k?

The Luna Wolves like to think so.
But the Ultramarines were always the Ultramarines.

>>43961589
I always imagined that Russ actually wasn't acting under orders.

>>43971450
Smurfs weren't even a big deal during the Crusades

>>43971449
daily reminder that eating the flesh and blood of enemies is used for recon, and eventually becomes a part of the ritual traditions of most chapters

>>43971545
>Smurfs weren't even a big deal during the Crusades

>Biggest Legion.
>Foremost warriors.
>Astonishing mental acuity.
>All but unrivaled in strategy and tactics.
>Finest military wisdom in the Imperium.
>Indomitable will.

They were a pretty big deal.

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>>43971529
>primarch considered greatest of them all
>were not the foremost warriors of all Legions
Does not compute.
>>43971545
Wasn't Big E surprised by Ultrmar?

>>43971630
>Biggest legion
yes
>foremost warriors
Luna Wolves and Space Wolves were better warriors
>Astonishing mental acuity
citation needed
>all but unrivaled in strategy and tactics
Horus, Alpharius and Jonson would like to have a word with you
>Finest military wisdom in the Imperium
how is this any different than what you said before?
>Indomitable will
They're fucking space marines they all have that.

>>43967070
As I recall, Space Marines were recruited from the worst of the worst and brainwashed into being space cops.

Not sure if this is the same incarnation as the half-eldar Ultramarine Chief Librarian.

>>43971661
>Does not compute.

Ultras are just smarter and more efficient.
Look at their backgrounds.
Luna Wolves come from hive gangsters.
Ultramarines come from one of the most well established warrior cultures in the Imperium.

>>43971661
>Wasn't Big E surprised by Ultrmar?

Yup, he was very impressed with what Guilliman had done.

>>43971710
>As I recall
you might want to actually read Rogue Trader again

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>>43971710
>As I recall, Space Marines were recruited from the worst of the worst

In many cases yes, though that is the same with modern space marines.

>brainwashed into being space cops.

Nope, never cops.
See pic for Space marines during RT.
You'll find very little of their core is changed.

>Not sure if this is the same incarnation as the half-eldar Ultramarine Chief Librarian.

He wasn't actually a Space Marine, just an attached Astropath. RT was not quite so set in stone as modern 40k, being in power armour and being called a Librarian didn't mean you were a Space Marine.

>>43971711
>Luna Wolves come from hive gangsters.
It's almost like you want Horus to shank you for implying that's a bad thing.
>Ultramarines come from one of the most well established warrior cultures in the Imperium.
Ultrmar lacks death worlds though.

Does anyone have that bit of fluff where Leman Russ punched the Emperor when he tried to tell him how to run his legion?

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>>43971691
>Luna Wolves and Space Wolves were better warriors

Directly contradicted by this >>43970951

>citation needed

Okay. Pic related.

>Horus, Alpharius and Jonson would like to have a word with you

Okay, they were close or even equal, but not better than Guilliman. All but unrivaled.

>how is this any different than what you said before?

Wisdom is not necessarily the same as intelligence.

>They're fucking space marines they all have that.

Ultras are noted for it. Especially because their will is so strong it provides them some measure of protection against the super natural.

>>43971769
Imagine IRL a ~2,5m tall giant is coming at you with such a tiny pistol

>>43971841
>Directly contradicted by this >>43970951

In what line? All I see are bits talking about their loyalty.

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>>43971863
He looks mad at the size of the pistol. 40k artwork has went places.

>>43971889
Adeptus Tyranid?

>>43971841
Are you posting from the UM codex? Because ever codex makes their subjects sound like the best thing since sliced bread.

>>43971493
They are both blond, their chapters are named after Angels, and the DA and the BA apparently fought together during the Scouring.

>>43971910
Imperial technical service, here to fix your cable.

>>43971910
Those are cogboys. That freaks me out to this day, and I have to remind myself that those are not Dark AdMech boys. They're pro-Imperium tech priests who feed off your nightmares. I like that little "The Chime of Eons" bit though.

>>43963314
>vulkan

Ok, lost it.

>>43971257
> I think I'd also tune space marine implants way down but make their implantation easier, so that the Astartes noble class would be more wide spread but still killable by unaugmented humans if caught out of armor.

That kinda removes the point of Astartes, doesn't it?

>>43972075
>Crank down on Chaos and rampant xenophobia and focus on human vs human conflict
these people don't want 40k

>>43971881
>In what line? All I see are bits talking about their loyalty.

You can read past the highlights, you know?
But fine:
>...and casts the Ultramarines amongst the foremost defenders of Mankind.
>...the same ideals shaped the Ultramarines into the foremost warriors of the Legions Astartes.

>>43971914
>Are you posting from the UM codex?

Nope. Sadly Ultras no longer have a codex of their own. This is from the latest HH book.

>>43968130

I get what he was trying to say. It's foolish and silly, and sounds like something I'd have made up when I was 7 or 8. And yes, I'm on the spectrum (the official diagnosis is "ADD-AT", which sounds kinda Star Wars-y so I'm cool with it. "ADD with strong autistic traits", apparently).

In many ways, on here at least, "autistic" has become shorthand for the ridiculous collection of Mary Sues, fanwank, and poorly written character concepts that the "good" folk of /tg/ tend to generate when left to their own devices.

>>43972010
Well, the invasion of Chaos hit Mars very hard, it seems.

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>>43967264
>more light-hearted, more strongly based off of WFB, ect.
This meme is perpetuated by people who have never read Rogue Trader, and have only seen the "hilarious" images posted on /tg/

Picture related, it's Rogue Trader.

>>43972205
They fight for humanaity, but the sounds of screaming children and of damned souls sustain them.

>>43972253
I'm not seeing a difference here. It looks like modern 40k but with older text.

>>43972418
For the most part it was.
People mistake RT being more eighties for being less serious.
At its core it's very much the same old 40k.

>>43972474
I always thought RT was more grimdark than modern 40k.

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>>43972418
Yep. The only real difference is it's from the 80's and the miniatures and artwork were a whole lot less refined. Though it's worth noting that chaos wasn't a big deal until the end of RT. The focus was originally on mankind becoming psychically aware.

The quite iconic opening tagline? That's also from RT, unchanged to this day.

>>43972510
>I always thought RT was more grimdark than modern 40k.

I could see that, especially from the 5e heroic age. A lot of the newer artwork really fails to capture the grit as well.

>>43972524
I know.
>The focus was originally on mankind becoming psychically aware.
That I didn't know. So what would you say the focus is now?

>>43972621
It's an element still present in modern 40k.
But it's more closely tied with Chaos now.
Chaos is obviously the main narrative threat.

>>43972621
Fuck knows, they've got too much shit going on from too many different races with radically different situations and goals.

RT had the benefit of only really being told from an imperial perspective.

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>>43972553
I'm not too big on modern art of 40k. I'm okay with digital art, but not with some of the stuff BL puts on its covers. I like this style.
>>43972664
Who was the main threat?
>>43972665
Well the end game for each faction is pretty easy to get.
Imperium: Survive to see the light of day/psychic race.
Chaos: Destroy everything
Orks: Krump everything
Nids: Eat everything
Eldar: Create a new god
Tau: Expand
Crons: Establish galaxy wide empire again
Accurate yes?

>>43961166
Fulgrim?

>>43972736
>Well the end game for each faction is pretty easy to get.
Not my point, I'm saying there's a lack of focus in the newer fluff.

Now you can have chaos hyped up as the most awesome, galaxy-ending threat, then immediately afterwards the fluff switches over to a war with the Tau Empire where no one gives a fuck. Then it jumps again to Eldar fighting Skeletons also completely disconnected from everything else. Next you'll see someone fighting against Tyranids, again with no relevance to the other conflicts.

Before, it was just what the Imperium was doing. Reacting to new discoveries, fighting off pirates, stamping out dissent, looking for lost technology and dealing with emerging psykers.

>>43972833
How can it be fixed then? Focus on all of them at once?

>>43972860
Removing the omnipresent threat of various "end games" and simply letting the various unconnected stories play out without blowing up might help. But I don't think the lack of focus can ever be truly fixed. GW's got their fingers in too many pies, and removing any will have the manbabies crying for years.

>>43972940
I always argued that Black Library should publish elseworlds exploring various races 'win conditions'.

>>43972940
>various unconnected stories play out without blowing up might help.
BL seems like they 51% of blowing them up.
>GW's got their fingers in too many pies
I think they've just smashed the pies with their fists.
>removing any will have the manbabies crying for years.
Anything GW will do that. Even if they made 40k 110% better people would still whine.

>>43972987
I'd rather they just put out books on the different races and cultures. Stuff like 'ere we go, but for every faction.

That's shit I'd want to collect.

>>43973057
oh that too absolutely

>>43963051
>'ow we s'posed to do that, you says? Well I wrote it all down, didn't I? Roight 'ere in this fookin book, I did.

>>43973199
>OI DORN! DONT GET CHEEKY ON ME M8, I SWEAR ON ME BALLS I'LL WRECK YOUR SHIT IF YOU DONT SPLIT YOUR BOYS!.

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>>43972736
>I'm not too big on modern art of 40k

I agree. The stuff John Sibbick put out was great.

This was also used as a cover for a great album, Realm of Chaos.

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>>43974165
I enjoy the more modern art myself - a lot of it is a bit more crisp and with a more realistic style, like an oil painting. Though the newest stuff hasn't always been that great - it was still better a few years ago.

>>43973269
for the love of god, not only continue this but screencap it and save it for posterity

>>43974165
The older style for bolters I really don't miss I will admit.

>>43974340
Yeah they aren't too great.
I've seen some good modern 40k art though, just not a fan of it. I think some great stuff has been put out from the past and now.

>>43973269
>Russ, ye fookin dog-shagger, sware on me mum if yer fookin wolves piss on me carpet agin I'll take this bloody great book and bash ye across the jaw with it, ye cunt-bearded wanker

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>>43974397
As for armor I liked this design for mk8.

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>>43972010
>I like that little "The Chime of Eons" bit

I made my fraternity's pledges memorize that back in my college days.

>>43972010
>I have to remind myself that those are not Dark AdMech boys

Regrettably, the Horus Heresy book has turned animal skull masks and ornamentation into a Dark Mechanicum thing, starting with Draykavac, and more in future books.

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>>43970346
It's treason in the same way that Lorgar started worshiping the Emperor as a God and the whole Monarchia thing, he meant it as good thing but it was totally against his wishes.. Building the Imperium Secundus was literally against E's plan of a single unified Empire, because it was a second empire.

>>43974935
I like you.
>>43974968
We need something for them. The regular technophiles already took double heads, chainsaw faces, and needles on the forehead. The Dark AdMech in modern 40k has probably surpassed their regular counterparts in looking like something out of a nightmare.

>>43975141
Not at all.
Imperium Secundus was a contingency plan to preserve the Imperium.
Lorgar just spat in the face of it.

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>>43961503
I like to imagine that one of the Missing Primarchs was purged in spite of his immense power because he adamantly refused to kill for the Emperor.

>>43975486
I don't understand that picture. I understand the last part, but I don't get how "Clark is the most human of us all"

>>43975558
He represents the best of humanity with a lot of his ideals.

>>43962037

Corax stripped Shade Lord Arkhas Fal and all Terran officers of their rank and exiled them to outside the galaxy, moron. They became the Space Sharks.

>>43975558

Replace human with humane and you'll get it. You have to remember Batman is still a good guy despite how dark he is, so to him, "human" means kind, nurturing, accepting, etc. He's not Rorschach.

>>43970346
Guilliman WASN'T the most Loyal, Jonson was. Guilliman was about to establish his own Imperium but then Jonson showed up and straightened him out.

>>43976344
>Jonson
>most loyal
>his legion is the one that went 50% traitor and is STILL running around abandoning comrades and chasing down unloyal members 10,000 years later

The whole "HUR DUR ULTRAMAROONS SECOND EMPIRE" is BL garbage.

>>43976367
Yeah, half his Legion went Traitor. He never did.

>>43976367
>implying Luther's actions when unsupervised reflect upon el'Jonson
>implying the Fallen shouldn't be hunted down like dogs
>outright stating that BL that doesn't suit your argument doesn't count

Try again.

>Reading up on Primarchs
>Find out that Jonson and Khan were actually friends

I did not expect this.

>>43976367
>Everything is Canon.
>Nothing is Canon.

This why you don't argue about 40K Lore. It's literally pick and choose.

>>43976367
You realize this whole thread is predicated on the Black Library Canon, right?

>>43976469
It's better than Russ and Jonson being friends.

>>43976538
Isn't that just what Russ thinks? And the Lion doesn't care on way or the other because he thinks the second sucker punch settled that account? Thought I read that somewhere.

>>43976553
Yeah, Russ always seemed like someone Lion would despise. Comparitively, he respects Khan for his leadership, bravery and skill.

>>43976604
The Lion is autistic as fuck, he despises everyone

>>43976469
Even someone like the Lion needs friends. They can at least talk about bikes and stuff. Even though Russ and the Lion share more in common than they'd ever want to admit.

The lore does get a bit quiet with certain Primarchs and their relationships with each other, honestly. And sometimes it gets confusing - I'm not sure if Curze liked Fulgrim or despised him.

>>43962503

holy shit

chaos apologists cannot be so fucking deranged

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>>43961145
Read Legion, Alpharion Omegon pretty much preach to their legion, and encourage them to openly discuss, that the emperors goal is foolhardy and impossible, but that its a noble pursuit regardless.

>>43976695
With Curze it could easily be both.

>>43976662
He's not Anti-Social, he's socially retarded.

He doesn't despise everyone, he just doesn't get anyone outside a select few people.

>>43976695
What do they share in common?

>>43977173
hence the autism label

>>43977185
they both grew up on death worlds? Russ probably thinks the lion is too dorky for his tastes.

>>43977185
>were initially without human contact before being adopted by humans partway through their life
>rose to be leaders of their respective worlds
>both are honorable in their own ways
>completely loyal to the Emperor, even if the Lion is secretive and Russ is stubbornly unorthodox
>both are prone to fits of rage and lash out violently at insults to their honor
>neither prefer diplomacy or enjoyed being told what to do, preferring to play by their own rules
>both heavily applied the culture and ideals of their homeworld to their Legions

>>43977334
Yes, he's an Aspie, but he doesn't hate everyone.