>Your GM asks you if you want 'soft xp' or

>>43639543
>>I ask what the fuck are "soft exp" and "hard exp?"

>>43639565
I second this

>>43639565
>>43639577
It probably means using experience points vs just leveling up whenever the DM says

Or maybe 'soft' refers to adding in Roleplay Exp or whatever.

>>43639565
thirded.

>>43639565
This, but more politely.

What if hard xp is physical?

>>43639577
>>43639565
>>43639597
>>43639601
Knowing this is 4chan, I just assume this is some kind of sexual euphamism, so I reply "Haarrrdd." rub my nipples in a circular fashion and bend over, spreading my ass cheeks.

>>43639614
how can xp be real if your character isn't real

>>43639618
How many arms do you have to be able to do that?

Goro pls go.

>>43639688
what, do you not have manual individual control over your ass muscles?

>>43639543
Soft, please. Even if it is a euphemism.

>>43639565
>>43639577
>>43639601
>>43639613

"Soft exp": Leveling up members when a certain threshold or rough estimate has been achieved, good for beginners or campaigns that have a lot of preset encounters.

"Hard exp": Regular exp, everyone keeps track of their own shit right down to single digits.

>>43639750
I don't think I've ever done hard EXP. As a GM, I think it's stupid and easier to fluff gains in ability as things that happen over time and as a Player, it's just needless busywork.

>>43639750
Does anyone actually do that "Hard Exp" crap? Sounds like something "That Guy" would do so he can out-level everyone else and then claim it's "fair".

>>43639788

In my experience players like being able to measure their progress, which is easier with hard XP.

On the other hand, that leads to silliness like the everyone suddenly sprouting new abilities all at once while moving from one room to the next, which is a little sily.

>>43639794
one less thing for the Gm to worry about? I know in my group everyone stays the same level and theres usually little variation if any. But if you want to split from the party or miss a lot of sessions why should you be entitled to xp. Isn't it a "reward"?

>>43639794
I've played with autismos that that demand it. And then at the end of the night I just say the session was worth X Exp. It is as if the autismos can't understand that I can pace levels that way just as easily as any other way. If they bitch that X Monsters deliver Y exp, I tell them they were homebrewed with different stats and as such had different exp values. None have been autismo enough to demand the stat sheets with math.

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>>43639794

>Does anyone actually autistically jot down minutia for the sake of a roleplaying game?
>He is not only surprised by this, he cannot imagine a game where it happens
>This is the state of the board after the questfags took over

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>>43639850
You just wrote three of your own lines to be pissed off about with barely the slightest relation to that post.

Impressive.

>>43639850
>muh quest boogeymang

I was expecting you to blame millennials, honestly.

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>>43639850
>being this autistic

>>43639875

Are you actually going to make me spell out which lines of his post corroborated to which bits of greentext, or do you just want to embarrassedly reread the two posts and then spam attempts to delete your post until the minute or two's no-deletion period is up?

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>>43639850
>muh quests

>>43639891

>It's that everyone-gets-a-trophy generation and the smartphones and the fluoride in muh drinking water!

>>43639628
how can mirrors be real if our eyes arent

>>43639910
First time posting in this thread. >>43639794 is clearly joking.

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>>43639910
Nah I'm good man. You can keep working yourself up all you want.

>>43639910
I don't have a reaction image for this.

>>43639948
>>>43639794 is clearly joking.

Poe's law, my friend.

>>43639829
>silliness like the everyone suddenly sprouting new abilities all at once while moving from one room to the next, which is a little sily

I had a fun one where the GM calculates xp for every thing that was killed, and the Barbarian leveled up mid-fight from killing a bunch of minions, and got another rage even though he had burned through all of his earlier.

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>>43639964
No face for this, face?

>>43639750
Hard, I like keeping kill count, and committing homicide as a way of self-improvement.

In my roleplays, that is.

>>43639829
In older editions, you didn't actually level up until you went and did some training or research for a bit, outside of a dungeon.

>>43639794
"Hard" Exp ties advancement directly to the players' actions rather than having it be something that the GM arbitrarily decides happens, making the players feel like they actually earned it by the decisions that they themselves made.

>>43639543
who is this qt?

>>43639794

I know this is a /tg/ meme at this point, but: Have you tried not playing D&D?

Some games, not a problem. Others, like the 40k RPG settings (Only War, Dark Heresy) mean you HAVE to keep track of your XP exactly because that's how you buy skills, traits, stat bonuses etc.

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>>43639543
"Surprise me."

>>43641375
I GM Dark Heresy I always just give the same amount of XP to everyone at the end of the session. How and when they spend is not my problem.

>>43639628
Cocaine or blowjobs.

I like having the numbers and sometimes the numbers differing between player characters, that way killing X monsters or collecting Y gp of treasure has more of a sense of accomplishment and motivation behind it. Plus the guy who joined later isn't thinking, "What's the point in trying to catch up? We'll all go up to level 6 at the end of the session."

The downside of course is that every monster must die. An unlimited stream of monsters? That's not a deadly threat to run away from, that's unlimited XP!

>>43641375

Anon, tracking measurements of progression is a universal thing in any system that has a means through which characters can advance. "Hard" vs "soft" xp as defined by OP is just referring to whether people manually track the system-defined moments where they earn xp or if the GM just says "Uh yeah you level up" or whatever every few sessions. It has nothing to do with D&D, 40k, or anything like that, since literally any progression system can be distilled to "Um yeah here's some points, it's been a few sessions"if it's more complex than that.

The only case where this wouldn't be a thing would be systems that give "soft" xp distribution as their default guidelines, although usually it's given as xp-per-session and not xp-per-whenever-the-GM-damn-well-feels-like, which would be your Dungeon World or Legends of the Wulin or whatever.

I said all this so I could call you stupid for doing the >PLAYING D&D meme thing when it was wholly irrelevant to the conversation.

>>43639543
soft xp

>>43639543
Hard xp with soft xp afterwards

>>43639794
Hard xp was very important in pre-wotc D&D where method of xp acquisition was based on class and classes each had different xp required to level.
3x kept tiny vestiges of this with xp cost to make items and xp penalty for multi-classing.
All in all, it has it's uses, however I prefer a more narrative/team based system in most cases.

>>43642078
So semi-firm xp?
A hard base with soft garnish?

>>43642126
Yes

So first we went from keeping track of the weight/size of items in (sometimes complex) encumbrance systems, to, "Don't worry about it!" or simpler systems like in LotFP.

Now we're increasingly going from keeping track of experience points (including different progression rates for different classes, and percentage bonuses in some cases) to, "You level up at the end of the module. Don't worry about it!"

What do you guys think is next? I think systems will start abstracting wealth.

"Can we buy new weapons?"
"You're Wealthy, so sure. Except for Tim, he's Poor, so buying a sword will make him Destitute."

We'll get rid of outdated concepts like "gold pieces", we'll just have a bunch of rankings. Collect enough treasure and you go up a rank. Buy some things and you go down a rank.

>>43639794
Most of the games I play don't have levels and instead you spend xp to buy up your stats. You kind of have to keep track of xp although it's usually just a few points based off the session as a whole.

>>43642185
It's funny because that's literally how wealth works in several systems and it's actually pretty nice. Sessions don't grind to a halt as everybody counts up exactly how much money they need to buy things.

Is it considered soft if the GM just gives everyone an equal sized chunk of XP at the end of the session?

>>43639543
Medium rare, with a side of bonus equipment.

>>43642185
>What do you guys think is next? I think systems will start abstracting wealth.

Mutants and Masterminds and Burning Wheel are two systems I know off the top of my head that already do this. Pretty sure REIGN does it, too.

As >>43642291 said, it's pretty good because bean counting is awful.

I'll make some sweet soft xp to OP and if they want a hard campaign then they can get the hard xp

I've never played a game with soft xp, and played with many different groups. Often, players do not get the same amount of xp, depending on whether they roleplayed well and if they made the plot advance.

Is this an anglo thing or something?

>>43639565
Hard XP: I will throw you rocks with how much XP you win. Aimed to your genitalia.
Soft XP: I will throw you paper airplanes with how much XP you win. Aimed to your eyes.

>>43643135
>Is this a racist capitalist thing
yes, yes it is.

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I'm gonna run a D&D game without XP or levels. Let's see how that goes.

>>43639688
ugh, now I'm imagining General Grevious doing that.

>>43639934
Miracles.

>>43643330
>Long ago, in the distant future

That sounds pretty cool. Like the opening line to 1984.

>>43642185
Fantasycraft does it a little.
Mostly with noncombat, nonmagical items, staying at an inn or buying food are abstracted.

>>43639543
is this a thing? I really don't get the reference

>>43639911
Why is this picture not titled "Baitletech" Or "Baitwarrior"? Fuck it. Save. Rename.

>Select all images with fish
It was fate.

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>>43643135
>never soft

The difference, in practice, is that the GM metes out "hard" XP after every encounter, with players tracking totals under the Honour System. IME, this has led to (bad) players squabbling over comparative scores, so I compromise by dealing hard XP and then leavening their totals with House Points for exceptional individual - or team - conduct I've recorded in my crib notes. These "soft" XP are awarded in the fashion of "Ten points to Gryffindor" for things like valor above and beyond, remarkable feats, incredible luck, etc.

tl;dr: Porque no los dos?

>>43641836
>which would be your Dungeon World
...Doesn't that system have hard XP, though?

I remember something about getting XP when you fail some rolls, at least.

>>43644126

Oh yeah, that's a thing. It's not purely on a per-session basis.

So there you go, >>43641375. Literally the most rules-lite version of D&D you can possibly get still uses "hard XP."

Which should tell you exactly how useful this stupid term we've cooked up is.

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>>43643330
Thanks anon, I'm always looking for more Joust media.

Can I ask a legitimate question here;

Why exactly would anyone ever use XP? What has XP values and tracks ever added to a story you are playing through?

They limit playtime, they turn players into number-crunchers and forward-lookers rather than being immersed in the narrative of the game, and they are so arbitrary that you're just going to toss them away when a player misses a session anyway, so what is the point?

XP ruins games. Stop using it.

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>>43644217

You tell him brother.

>>43643283
I'll take Soft XP.

It's okay, I can take it: I wear glasses.

>>43644297
I don't see how removing XP means you have to remove the rest of the game.

It means you're not limited to "X amount of fights per level" because if there any more or more challenging encounters, players will be leveling too fast and accelerating the whole story along with it.

>>43639628
>Swordsman wants to train his armor skills
>DM beats the shit out him until his skills level up

>>43644217
It gives a concrete, immediate reward to player and character accomplishments. If you defeated that band of hobgoblins, disarmed that trap, or looted that treasure, you are becoming more experienced as adventures and gaining a nice rewards as players.

>they are so arbitrary that you're just going to toss them away when a player misses a session anyway

Then don't do this. This way it's also an incentive to not miss a session. I don't think I've ever met a player who wasn't fine with not earning experience points when they weren't playing.

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>>43644170
>Literally the most rules-lite version of D&D you can possibly get
Yeah, right. Dungeon World doesn't have shit on some of the really "lite" shit out there.

>>43644217
Traditionally, in the really old D&D versions, all it really required was for the DM to jot down the hit dice of the monsters you killed and then, when the adventure was over, check 'em up on the good old eldritch XP matrix and add the gold recovered to it.

So all the number-crunching and whatnot took place at the end of the adventure, rather than interrupting the middle.

It served as an extra balancing mechanism, in that some classes were stronger and thus advanced slower than others, and also encouraged the intended playstyle of the game (get in, grab the loot, get out).

It helps that you didn't really get much when leveling up - mostly just bigger numbers.

And, of course, narrative wasn't really as much of a focus. Dungeon-crawling with player-focused (rather than character-focused) challenges, though? It's hard to beat B/X for that.

Seriously, you didn't even get narrative metaplotty adventure modules until Hickman's "Pharaoh" came out in '82. (That's the Dragonlance couple, for reference.)

>>43644417
>It gives a concrete, immediate reward to player and character accomplishments.

I'm sorry, are we playing a game about roleplaying, or are we playing a video game?

The "immediate reward" is killing the fucking monster. The slightly-less-immediate reward is whatever loot may come from the fight. Why do you need anything else?

Even if I WAS using XP, which I don't, I would never tell the players "lol u get 5Xp for the goblin". What kind of miserable beer-and-pretzels faggot do you have to be?

>>43644217
>they are so arbitrary that you're just going to toss them away when a player misses a session anyway

I've never had a DM who gave players XP for missing sessions, and I've never seen a player rude enough to ask for it.

>>43643303
Fuck off nigger

>>43641762
>not a deadly threat
Someone needs to look into the MM again.
I reccommend dire sentient rust monsters empowered who worship outsider gods.
Or, if an asshat, 2e slime

>>43644435
>Yeah, right. Dungeon World doesn't have shit on some of the really "lite" shit out there.

>Some nobody PDF passed around in some /tg/ share thread once a blue moon
>Has more rules than Dungeon World does anyway but he probably thinks it doesn't because this thing is two pages and Dungeon World spends most of its pages telling the GM how to run a game

k m8 lol

>>43644455
You're playing a game. I'm guessing you're still rolling dice for things, unless you're playing some kind of freeform and/or diceless system. Defeating (or avoiding) monsters, solving puzzles, collecting loot, any other non-combat XP rewards you can think of, those are a fun part of most games as a game system.

Two groups might go through the exact same dungeon and have entirely different degrees of experience. One hits the first group of enemies and flees. The other makes it all the way through, slays all the evil monsters, grabs all the treasure, and then claims it for the forces of good.

Do they both deserve to go up a level?

If the inherent rewards are roleplaying, general success, and treasure, you might as well do away with levels altogether. How would you even quantify levels then? How many sessions the players have took part in? How much real-life time has passed?

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This is some good basic advice on XP from AD&D 2E. 1 of 3.

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Also good advice on making encounters more dramatic and less vidya-like. 2 of 3.

>>43644564
Let me explain it like this: I've been running games for at least the last 5 years without using XP, my current group for 2 years now.

Once it's established that XP is not a thing they have to think about, they don't ask "Hey, when are we leveling up?" or "Oh man guys we'll level up in one more fight", or worse, "We're 100XP from the next level, let's just go kill rats until we level up, then take on the next dungeon."

I don't worry about numbers of encounters or balance ruining my pace. I am not limited to 5 encounters per level, and needing to shoehorn in those fights regardless of if they fit or not. The story is free to take as long as it needs to take, and I don't have to worry about a punch-happy group who takes everything and more head-on gaining too much experience and trivializing content, challenge can always be regulated.

And more importantly, it's meta information players don't have to think about. They can spend that time staying in-character, thinking about their roleplaying and how they want to handle things. If combat happens, it happens, but only when it's necessary and makes sense. Trying to bribe my players to roleplay by handing out rewards for it is retarded, because I don't want them to feign investment because of mechanical rewards, they should want to roleplay well because that's the point of the game.

And you know what? 2 years into this group's game, it's never been brought up once.

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3 of 3.

>>43644671
This sounds like you're having fun. Are you using a D&D edition, or something else?

>>43644697
>Are you using a D&D edition, or something else?

Pathfinder.

>>43644671
Well that's fine. I'm playing in a campaign like that right now, it suits the group.

But if I was playing in a more hack-and-slash campaign for example, I'd feel pretty cheated if killing ten groups of hobgoblins was equivalent to killing one group of hobgoblins. You mentioned treasure as an explicit reward, that's something your characters have, and you might feel cheated if you didn't get what you deserve. Some people feel the same way about XP.

Another abstract example I'll give is time, because it's more important to role-playing and occasionally the mechanics of the system.

"You spend a few months in the city, when..."
"How many months?"
"It doesn't matter."

Yes it matters, whether it's for something crunchy like crafting or training, or for some role-playing reason like my character spending time with his family.

>>43644809
I don't want to turn this into a "rollplayer detected" joke, but really, your examples are pretty bad. What role do those hobgoblin encounters serve in the story? As you put it, it sounds a lot like grinding for the sake of grinding. Which is a possible playstyle, certainly, but it's also babby-tier gaming.

>>43644671
Counter-argument, not against you but just to have an opposing viewpoint from another person.

Taking away Experience Points disincentivizes player motivation by instead putting that entire onus on 'advancing the plot' instead of 'going adventuring.' I've had a lot of players refuse plot threads and deny going on side-quests, interacting with NPC's, and lots of other baffling behavior explained as "I want to get to the next level, and that means clearing the mission, not messing around with this."

On the other hand, seemingly bizarre behavior gets reinforced for the same reason. Why were they so focused on one NPC, one stupid quest, or in forcing the town to give THEM the rodent-slaying quest instead of the exterminators? Because it's an easy quest, and it's already been established that they gain levels and loot on quest completion, not on actually going adventuring. It also means that they started doing everything they could to skip encounters and use as few resources as possible in each event - There's no point in clearing out the dungeon when the reward is the same whether or not they even bothered to go find what was behind that secret door, or even to chase after the bad guy afterwards.

It just seems simpler to my group to use EXP to define what it is they actually DO instead of what it is they ACCOMPLISH. Easier to work out session-to-session, easier to have smaller goals that work up to a larger one, and easier to reward going off the rails and getting into extra fights, avoiding other fights, or completely missing whatever point I was trying to make.

Just my two cents on the subject.

>>43644877
>I've had a lot of players refuse plot threads and deny going on side-quests, interacting with NPC's, and lots of other baffling behavior explained as "I want to get to the next level, and that means clearing the mission, not messing around with this."

That's fine. I have no intention of ever letting a player like this into my games.

Because just as important as it is for me to give players the best story experience they can have, I certainly would never want to bring in a player who is actively antagonistic to that.

>There's no point in clearing out the dungeon when the reward is the same whether or not they even bothered to go find what was behind that secret door, or even to chase after the bad guy afterwards.
...what? How does this make any sense at all?

You're clearly talking about players who actively choose to have no concern with or care for the narrative of the plot at all. These are not players you should ever be allowing to play. Even in your post you're explaining how they're ruining the game by being shitty people.

I'm sorry, but you're playing with people who don't deserve the effort it takes to run a campaign for them.

>>43644873
Well maybe they're just there defending the keep?

It's a big keep, there's lots of them, it makes sense for them to be there. It wouldn't make sense for a whole bunch of them to just disappear because of the player characters.

>>43644937
Why not hit the best of both worlds and give players experience points or some other mechanical benefit for role-playing?

Disallowing a player because they enjoy combat or dungeon exploring more than chatting with the townsfolk is just cruel. Most groups are made up of different people who like different things, and you should work with that.

If you consider hours of in-character conversation or political intrigue or whatever it is a more worthwhile experience than killing and looting, why not give a reward for that? It could be experience points, it could be a character offers them gold, it might be something like D&D 5E's inspiration mechanic.

>>43645095
>Why not hit the best of both worlds
I don't consider one of those worlds to be worth engaging with at all?

I don't WANT to have to reward my players for roleplaying. I want them to roleplay because they enjoy it and because that's what they're sitting down at the table to do.

>Disallowing a player because they enjoy combat or dungeon exploring more than chatting with the townsfolk is just cruel.
No it's not. They are not interested in playing the same type of game that I and my players are, so they don't belong at the table. There are a million hack-and-slash dungeon-crawl DMs out there they can find to fulfill their video game fantasies.

>Most groups are made up of different people who like different things, and you should work with that.
Luckily, I get to choose who to recruit when I'm putting together a group, and there's no rule saying I have to take players that don't fit. You're speaking as if groups of players just already exist and the DM is supposed to sit down and run a game for them.

>If you consider hours of in-character conversation or political intrigue or whatever it is a more worthwhile experience than killing and looting, why not give a reward for that?
I'd think the player enjoys it enough that they don't need a reward for doing it, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

I don't get why you think players absolutely need to be rewarded for doing exactly what the game expects them to do?

>>43645182
What system are you playing, out of interest?

>>43645238
I already mentioned, my group has been playing Pathfinder for the last 2 years. I may start a 5E campaign eventually, but I haven't worked out something worth playing yet.

>>43645182
I don't even disagree with anything you're saying but I'm going to jump in here to tell you I hate your fucking guts.

>>43645274
'Aight.

>>43645182
>I don't get why you think players absolutely need to be rewarded for doing exactly what the game expects them to do?
Because D&D, which you are assuredly playing, does NOT require players to roleplay anymore than absolutely needed.
Also, roleplay can also be entirely a means to an end of it's own, and a method of advancement itself, which is why DMGs recommend offering xp for roleplay above the basics.

>>43639794
Good god

/tg/ 2015

People don't even like XP any more. First classes are unfashionable, now we're so hipster that "yeeeah you're pretty kinda close-ish to third level" is acceptable.

Do you people even play RPGs? If you're going to throw out the numerical system for advancement, what's the point of having any numbers at all? It's like caring about your car's velocity at any random point in time, and not about it's general acceleration.

>>43645301

Pretty sure that post was satirical. Look at the use of scare quotes.

>>43639750
Why do you call it soft XP? It has nothing to do with XP, its literally "There is no XP and you level up when QM says so"

>>43645298
Except again, I'm not playing what you seem to understand D&D to be. My games are not "Tactical combat and character sheet games that are occasionally bridged by having to roll a Diplomacy check to get the next dungeon to crawl through". It's not stat-crunching stuff with some roleplay icing.

We're playing a game, as agreed on by the players when we started, where the narrative is front and center, where they're playing characters designed to fit realistically into a world and function within it, where combat is not the primary focus of the game, but rather something that exists when and where it makes sense.

They want to play through a compelling and coherent narrative, and that means that the one thing that is expected out of everyone, is that they're going to be roleplaying. And because there's quite a lot of talking in-character and solving problems that way, there's going to be tons of times they're extremely clever and roleplay really well, and plenty of times they don't.

"More than absolutely needed" in this case, is a fucking lot, because that's what this particular gaming group sits down at a table to do.

You may sit down at a table to pelt eachother with dice and be told "You win, here's 500XP!", but that's not what we do.

>>43645301
>>43645323
Yet it becomes sad when you take it face value, and realize that's what a lot of the mainstream RPG community is progressing towards.

OSR is catching on more and more in retaliation.

>>43645379
Honest question here, why are you playing pathfinder/D&D and not a system with more social depth and narrative tools available?

>>43645410
Why does it matter? What "tools" does one need to tell a narrative?

>>43645379
So you believe that interacting and learning about the world, and the other pcs, is not worth the advancement that xp represents?
Well, fine then.
I feel differently, and guess what? Nothing changes.
I will, however, remind you to read the various DMGs where it talks about player advancement, it's underpinnings and qualifications.

>>43645410
This is what I was wondering in >>43645238

Or why not flat-out do freeform if you don't like numerical rewards or dice rolling? You don't have to make Diplomacy checks if you just say something diplomatic.

>>43645421
>What "tools" does one need to tell a narrative?

Not that other anon: there are some RPG systems that are very well-designed for keeping narrative games going. You should check out Dogs in the Vineyard, In a Wicked Age, or even Golden Sky Stories (maybe not so much the last one).

>>43645421
Well why specifically use the tools you're using now?

And if you are going to use tools anyway, why not look into story games?

>>43639543
Nigga, we use XP tokens. Instead of wasting our time calculating that bullshit, whenever the PCs do something awesome, I chuck an XP token at them.

Overcame a significant encounter? Token.
Told a story in-character to show us you aren't a cardboard murder cutout? Token.
Solved an array of dungeon puzzles? Token.
Made everyone laugh so hard we were incapacitated for a minimum of 15 seconds? Token.

At the end of a session, if the entire party has accumulated 10 tokens, they all high five and level up.

>>43645434
>So you believe that interacting and learning about the world, and the other pcs, is not worth the advancement that xp represents?
I think XP is a distraction for players at best, and only serves to limit the runtime of a narrative a campaign can tell, and so it's a pointless mechanics that adds nothing to the experience.

>Or why not flat-out do freeform if you don't like numerical rewards or dice rolling?
Who said anything about not liking dice rolling? There's still plenty of reasons to roll dice, lots of them which serve the story perfectly well. It's still a game, there's still a reason to have character stats. We just remove the XP aspect and you level up when I think it matters, which is almost always going to be after a significant event the party has been working towards.

>>43645443
>here are some RPG systems that are very well-designed for keeping narrative games going.
You didn't answer the question.

>>43645459
Nor did you. I asked specifically what "tools" are necessary for telling a story. You didn't answer, you just said "There are story-games..." without explaining why you think they A,) Do anything of value, or B.) Somehow use system rules to tell a narrative better than just telling a narrative.

Why do you think it's not possible to tell a story while playing Pathfinder? Why do you think it's required to use some arbitrary system because it claims to be more "narrative" based?

>>43645520
>I think XP is a distraction for players at best, and only serves to limit the runtime of a narrative a campaign can tell, and so it's a pointless mechanics that adds nothing to the experience.
Nah, XP is what you get when you crack open the skulls of your victims and suck out their soul energy from their magi lobe.
The XP tax is very valuable for ensuring power remains in the hands of the nobility in the form of higher levels

>>43645520
>Why do you think it's not possible to tell a story while playing Pathfinder? Why do you think it's required to use some arbitrary system because it claims to be more "narrative" based?

You can tell a story that has more depth than your generic fantasy beat em up in pathfinder, sure. But the players options for social interaction are limited compared to other systems. Building any character that doesn't act as a heroic fantasy protaganist doesn't quite work, and the mechanical depth to interacting with the game in ways that don't revolve around tactical combat fall short of other systems.

It's not impossible, and I have no doubt that you can run a great narrative game in pathfinder, it's just that there are systems that fit better with that playstyle and help facilitate it more.

>>43645562
XP poaching by adventurers is a serious crime

>>43645394
FWIW, I use a lot of OSR and 1/2e, (OSRIC is titties) and DON'T run hard xp, and it honestly lets me nerd out about some of 2e's underlying design philosophies about differential xp.

Hell, I'm even more likely to run a series of well connected dungeon crawls than intrigue.

When did the hobby get so tribal?

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>>43645478
You.
I like you.

>>43645520
>Why do you think it's not possible to tell a story while playing Pathfinder? Why do you think it's required to use some arbitrary system because it claims to be more "narrative" based?

>>43645443 here. They're not necessarily better; it's just another option to consider. Some players might have more fun if their chance of successfully pulling off a diplomatic encounter are more tied to their character's speaking abilities and less to their own (the player's) speaking abilities.

>>43645575
This anon put my thoughts pretty well.

>>43644217

In 3.5E XP could also be used a fuel for some higher level spells, item crafting ect. I think there were a few XP draining effects too.

>>43645608
>>43645478
Yeah I like this option a lot.

>>43645434

You can award xp for world exploration and roleplaying. Pretty sure most DMGs tell you to.

>Ever arguing with MUH STOREE fags

I know none of us would be here if we weren't willing to waste our time, but holy shit guys.

Discussing "the story" or "the narrative" of p&p games is the biggest waste of time you could ever possibly aspire to. Jerking off for 4 straight hours would be more productive than what you guys are doing.

Literally any p&p games story out of it purely by virtue of the fact that you are playing characters who resolve situations using some kind of action resolution mechanic. The only variable is how many rules you want to look up while you're doing the rest of that stuff.

>>43645721
Yeah, the story is about the players.
I want them to be engaged. If they wanna hit xp bags with a stick for a fetch quest, then can go play an MMO.

>>43645740
MMOs didn't invent those ideas. What do you think players in the 1980s did?

>>43644564
>Do they both deserve to go up a level?
Why would the DM tell the group that ran away to level up? It's DM fiat advancement, not advancement every session regardless of what actually happened.

>>43644217

Can I ask a legitimate question here;

Why exactly would anyone ever use rules? What has rules and dice-rolling ever added to a story you are playing through?

They limit playtime, they turn players into number-crunchers and forward-lookers rather than being immersed in the narrative of the game, and they are so arbitrary that you're just going to toss them away when a player misses a session anyway, so what is the point?

Rules ruin games. Stop using them.

>>43645815
I dunno, have awesome adventures with engaged characters. That's what they tell me, they could be lying though.

Multiple persistent game worlds and settings emerged out of this.

I don't see how the absence or presence of a number in the xp box on your sheet changes that.

>>43641762
>Plus the guy who joined later isn't thinking, "What's the point in trying to catch up? We'll all go up to level 6 at the end of the session."
DMs who make new players start off at level 1 or otherwise significantly underpowered are literally scum and should be purged.

>>43639543
Who is this semen demon?

>>43645929
Can I ask a legitimate question here;

Why exactly would anyone ever eat snacks? What have chips and dip ever added to a story you are playing through?

They limit playtime, they turn players into doritos-crunchers and coke-spillers rather than being immersed in the narrative of the game, and they are so tasty that you're just going to wolf them down yourself when a player misses a session, ruining your figure, so what is the point?

Snacks ruin games. Stop eating them.

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>>43639543

I can't give her the same option between hard and soft.

>>43639543
Depends, how do you like your dickings?

>>43645421
You lose perspective when you assume that RPGs are only for narrative. You could easily just write a collaborative book if you only wanted narrative. You could sit around the campfire and tell stories. Any of those would be better than getting in character and winging it for three hours.

RPGs are about putting you in the story in a way that isn't possible in either books or video games. Part of that is the narrative, yes. Another part is playing the role of a character. Included in that role should be danger and reward. Poor players should die, good players should grow stronger. In a novel, you don't get that. You don't get to test your own wit and skill; everything has already been written and chosen for you.

Part of the reward should be XP. What a player does and says is narrative. What the world looks and feels like, and what the story background is: also narrative. But narrative can't take everything over. Some things, like growth, must remain objective in order to create a good experience for players. They want to see if they can grow and become Conan or Rand al'Thor, but not just because it suits the story.

>>43648936
>Part of that is the narrative, yes. Another part is playing the role of a character. Included in that role should be danger and reward.
Please explain to me how a group that sits down to a gaming table and prefers to spend their sessions with in-character roleplaying and occasional combat without bothering with meta details like experience points to clutter up their enjoyment and pace of the narrative, some in your retarded head translates to "there is no danger or reward"? Because I cannot comprehend for the life of me how you make that logical leap.

>Part of the reward should be XP
I didn't realize that was a rule. Why are you saying this like it's a rule?

I don't think you're intelligent or literate enough to have this conversation, yet you seem to want to anyway.

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>>43644217
>>43645929
>>43647220
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Experience Points" bullshit that's going on in the /tg/ system right now. XP deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself earned genuine XP in D&D by killing 240 goblins(that's about 20 trolls) and have been leveling up with it for almost 20 years now. I can even minmax martial classes with my XP.

Neckbearded grognards spend hours earning a single XP and rules lawyer it up to a million times to produce the finest stats known to mankind.

XP are thrice as precise as DM fiat and thrice as crunchy for that matter too. Anything narrative approximation can level up, XP can level up better. I'm pretty sure XP could easily minmax a monoclassed fighter with RAW core books.

Ever wonder why rules light narrative systems never bothered buying out TSR? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined munchkins and their XP of destruction. Even in the 1980s, Jack Chick targeted the systems with XP first because their minmaxing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? XP is simply the best stat that the world has ever seen, and thus, requires better stats in the /tg/ system. Here is the stat block I propose for XP:

(Single Character Level Advancement System)
1d12 Hit dice
19-20 x4 feats
+2 to levels
Counts as character growth

(Full Party Level Advancement System)
2d10 Hit dice
17-20 x4 feats
+5 to levels
Counts as character growth

Now that seems a lot more representative of the minmaxing power of XP in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = XP needs to do more leveling in /tg/, see my new stat block.

>>43642185
>What do you guys think is next? I think systems will start abstracting wealth.
Storyteller has been doing this since 1991. Resources are ranked between one and five dots, if you have enough dots to afford something you can buy it, if you don't you can't buy it. Resources might be lowered temporarily or permanently if the ST decides you've been putting too much of a strain on them.

>Not playing Burning Wheel
>Not having your skills/stats advance by using them in meaningful situations
>Not having some of the requirements to advance be taking on challenges your character is practically guaranteed to fail on.

Seriously though, other systems are fine, I just really like Burning Wheel's advancement system (once you get used to the bookkeeping, which does slow down play for a little while until people get used to it)

As a forever-GM, soft.

Micromanaging xp is a lot of busywork for no real gain. Yes, they're your characters, but they're going to gain power and levels at the rate I want anyway.

Doing it at appropriate points, usually after some sort of major objective and during a spot of downtime to rest and train, feels right.

>>43649309

Yeah I don't think this is much of a stretch. I mean, if you say that someone has a middle class income, then it's pretty intuitive the types of things that they can purchase always/occasionally/rarely/never.

You'll never see a novel track someone's money down to the dollar, it's simply not an important figure. Their relative wealth is.

The counterpoint I see to this is that adventurers tend to not follow neat little categories. They tend to find a trickle of ill-gotten gains along with occasional sums of wealth.

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>>43649245

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>>43644671
>"We're 100XP from the next level, let's just go kill rats until we level up, then take on the next dungeon."
Then tell them it's not a fucking MMO, players who say this kind of stupid shit are going to be terrible regardless of exp or not.

>>43651735
Once you establish that XP is gained from killing things, and that players have any sort of agency within the game world, you cannot tell them they are not allowed to go find something to kill for easy XP, otherwise you're admitting that the reward only comes from fighting things you want them to fight, and you can arbitrarily decide when it does not apply.

>>43651740
XP comes from challenge. If there's seriously a place with an infinite amount of the same enemy and the players can kill those all day long, the characters are either gonna be too high level to be challenged or are gonna get used to fighting them real fucking fast, at which point they stop gaining xp.

And no, most people aren't gonna risk life and limb purely to level in-universe, and most aren't even gonna establish the 'kill things->get stronger' connection.

>>43651740
Except you can retard. To the characters themseles they don't KNOW they'll get better from killing rat. It's completely reasonable for any GM even half decent to put down his foot and remind them of their own characters. If your players still insist on it then they're fucking clearly not even trying to play a roleplaying game, and you have no reason to keep them in the group.

Unless your group has never played a tabletop before and just now left their room after having spent the past years playing fucking WoW, that shit just isn't going to happen.

And no, you're not doing anything like forcing them to only level up at your pace. If they don't want to go where the leads or whatever tell them, then they can just not go there.

>>43651775
>most people blah blah
yeah, that's because they're not adventurers.

>>43651810
Cute. Most adventurers are motivated by either gold or justice or some variation of the latter. They're not gonna risk getting swarmed to death by a horde of rats simply because 'I sense I am close to unlocking slightly more of my potential!'

>>43651842
Fuck off, you tried to argue what adventurers would do based on what peasants would do. The rest of the argument is meaningless.

and you're dumb for forgetting people who quest for power.

Maybe I'm casual cancer, but I think the less number-crunching there is in my RP the better it is. I want to roleplay. Going through spreadsheets takes me right out of that.

>>43651858
My argument still stands. You can not like my argument and pretend adventurers are xp-bots who don't have any sense of pain or boredom, when for low level adventurers this is more than true.

And yeah, but those people as previously mentioned don't know how close they are to levelling (Thus making 'we're 100 xp from levelling, lets kill rats!' metagaming), what gives them xp (Hence they don't even know killing rats will make them level), and many are nuanced beyond 'I want levels!' because that's a really shitty motivation

>>43651876
I really like spreadsheets and overcomplicated systems, but that shit is NOT FOR TABLETOP.

Trying to make tabletop RPGs about challenge or mechanical mastery is really picking the absolute worst genre for what you are trying to do.

>>43651858
Questing for power generally means seeking out people to train you, or to gain influential power. As long as levels are not concrete things to the characters themselves (which they never are), they have no reason to go kill rats and shit to level up.

I have no idea how a GM can actually grow to have such a low opinion of players, it's like talking to someone who hasn't een experienced it.

>>43651889
>my fundamentally flawed argument still stands
not really, you're just repeating yourself.

>>43651905
adventurers don't get people to train them, anon. That doesn't produce any useful result.

>>43651907
You said adventurers aren't people with fundamentally human (or elven, or orcish, or whatever, you know what I mean) motivations, feelings and thought processes, which they are. You're just trying to wriggle your way out of making an actual argument.

>>43651876
That's why xp gets covered at the end of the session, rather than during. That's also useful for making sure people don't level mid-game, which can be a headache if your players aren't used to it.

>>43651912
Then fucking make it useful, or play a less shit system which actually makes trainers useful itself. The only one limiting these options from being worth pursuing is you as the GM.

>>43651925
>power is not a human motivation because if it were my argument would be fundamentally flawed and I would have to agree I was slightly wrong. Instead, I will slip and squirm around this point for as long as necessary instead of admitting minor fault

>>43651933
I already explained the point against 'people are motivated by power, therefore they know exactly how far they are from levelling at all times and know killing a few rats will make them level', ignoring the fact that power does not necessarily mean levelling. The characters don't know what makes them level, and the rats won't necessarily even give xp, as I put all the way back in my initial response to this whole business.

You just ignored that and responded with 'your argument is fundamentally flawed, ergo I don't have to address anything you posted'

>>43651963
if a character is living in that world, then for the same reason they know that training does jack shit, they know that going out and adventuring around and killing shit makes you into some kind of combat god.

Either they know this, or there is a large amount of suspension of disbelief lying around about why nobody can observe natural patters of their world.

>>43651971
They know adventuring makes you strong, not which specific aspect of it makes them strong. That's also ignoring that that's not even what gives xp, even in 3.5. Overcoming traps, talking past combat, subduing enemies nonlethally, redeeming evildoers and completing specific goals are all things that give xp, and thus are also things that would confuse the matter in universe.

Also bear in mind gaining xp doesn't cause any immediate change in abilities, which further conflicts the issue in-universe.

In short, unless you're in a setting where rigerous scientific studies have been done into levelling, there's no reason to assume people know in-universe killing things is one of the things that gives you xp.

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>>43651933
Then fucking explain why you're tolerating having your PCs somehow getting a grasp of how exp works in-game. Their character isn't going to know that they levelled up, they're not feeling something unnatural surging through their body. In-universe, the characters are growing more experienced and thus becoming more efficient combatants through that.

If their characters want to go stronger then that's going to mean seeking challenges, which is a perfectly fine motivation for a character. That does not mean that their character is justified in killing mundane shit in hope of a sudden enlightenment.

>>43651971
>if a character is living in that world, then for the same reason they know that training does jack shit
Then that's you being an awful GM and incapable of conveying a believable world to them. How the fuck did the knights, soldiers and wizards of the land get powerful? I can tell you right now that it's not going to be through solely killing, especially in any land that's not filled with constant war.

You neglecting other options does not make experience a bad option, it just makes you narrow-minded as fuck with no even respectable opinion of your own players. If you're playing with players who would unironically act in this ridiculous manner you're describing, then they're awful players who don't have a spot reserved for them at the table, and no shitty arguments against exp is going to change that.

>>43652004
man people even in the real world knows that killing things makes you stronger.
It's a trait of many real world conditions and is pretty obvious by how veteran soldiers win against nonveterans.

Though, like I said, this is all aside from the point. I don't actually care about whatever rat discussion you were having. I got in here specifically to point out that your argument was flawed from the start because you disregard the motive for power and are willfully ignorant towards ways people might go after it.

>>43652004
Doesn't the actual leveling being between sessions represent their training and finding further understanding/strength?

>>43651971
>stupid d&d metagame: the poster

>>43652016
I'm gonna be completely honest with you.
That "Training does nothing" thing is just me being salty that the system is so retarded that you gain no experience from certified training, and it seems like you are going to be angry about this for a while if I don't clarify this.

>>43652021
And your argument is flawed because you assume a perfect knowledge of the game system from those who live within it, which is something I've already pointed out the many, many flaws in.

>>43652024
>Doesn't the actual leveling being between sessions represent their training and finding further understanding/strength?
Probably yeah, which makes the other guys point even more flawed. xp doesn't directly increase your character's personal power until they reach a certain threshold

>>43652053
>perfect
More like incredibly vague, easily observed and repeatable trends.

>>43652053
anon, if you don't at least have the basic understanding that you can get stronger through combat being known to the people of your setting, then it sort of loses versimillitude.

Unless you're running one of those weird eden-zones where you have to put XP into learning what violence is before you can even fight.

>>43652077
>basic knowledge of combat getting stronger
=/=
>wrongly thinking they can level by squishing >>43639543
flies on their porch in glorious combat

>>43652077
Combat yes, 'combat against anything and everything', no. People know in-universe that one becomes more powerful by going out and pushing oneself to the limits, and that's all they know. Hell, the bard who talked his way up to the right hand of the king gained xp simlarly, as did the rogue who stole the crown jewels. The unifying factor in all of these is the challenge, not fighting, and thus the challenge is what is known in universe. Nobody has reason to believe stepping on a rat will serve to hone their skills.

>>43639543
We were keeping track for a while but by the time we hit level four and some people had missed a few sessions and were going to be left behind the DM just out and out said we'ed basically level up everytime the plot reaches a 'plateau'.
We've had no real issue since.

However, next campaign we're planning on keeping track again. We'll see how long it lasts.

>>43652101
The specifics might be incorrect, but you have to bend to the generality that if you go out and fight some dudes, you'll get stronk. or die
and, you know what?
If
>>43651842
is right and a swarm of rats is a legitimate risk, they totally will get stronger.

>>43652109
I've decided that we agree on the core sentiment and you are just being stubborn on the rat topic because some guy brought it up earlier.
I am almost certain you'd agree it is valid to seek out a controlled fight or two to hone your abilities before big endeavors given what you've said, and that's all that matters.

>>43652140
Not really, since a 'controlled' fight removes the aspect of risk, unless I misinterpret you.

>>43652124
Is fine, though it begs the question of why they're risking severe injury/death against a type of encounter most low level parties are ill set to fight (seriously, rat swarms are frigging brutal for their CR) rather than just moving on to the next dungeon, where they'll probably get paid and/or get loot for doing an easier job.

>>43652163
>Not really, since a 'controlled' fight removes the aspect of risk, unless I misinterpret you.
You very much are, and it doesn't really matter.

Whether or not you can have a controlled situation that is also risky and a learning experience is a topic for another 3AM.

>>43651328

Yeah, I really like Burning Wheel's progression system too. Simply getting better at the stats you use seems so obvious and simple but most games choose to abstract it differently. BW's way is much nicer for maintaining believability and not having those weird moments where you suddenly improved at a skill you haven't used in ages.

>>43648996
I wonder how you'd deal with a system like Storyteller or GURPS, where the players use XP to buy skill points, merits, etc..

>>43639618
this is the correct answer to most questions here

I tried soft exp once, and disliked it because nobody had to put effort into it.

We use hard exp. And levelling is hard - you can spend the exp to level something you just did (so after a fight, you could level Str, Dex, or Swords. But you couldn't level up you Bows unless you used them).
If you wanted to level something that wasn't relevant, you had to wait for downtime,so your character could go and practice.

>>43639750
I do Whose Line XP. Where everything is made up and the points don't matter.

>>43639543
>dyed hair

Dropped.

>>43639829


> On the other hand, that leads to silliness like the everyone suddenly sprouting new abilities all at once while moving from one room to the next, which is a little sily.

It's an abstraction. Almost everything you do doesn't really make sense

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>>43649245
Undertoasted roast

>>43639543
>dyed hair
well my dick is as hard as my XP now

>>43639543
Prefer Windows xp

The main reason I don't do 'hard' XP is because I make up a lot of shit on the spot, and it's really hard for me to just judge how much XP any given encounter is worth when I developed it in secret five minutes before it occurred.

Having played a shit load of wh 40k rpgs, shadowrun and gurps, I like my xp hard and given during character down time.

In dnd, I also liked hard because I played a lot of support crafting wizards and artificers.

>>43658604

>40k rpgs and shadowrun

Oh yeah, you definitely track XP for those because it actually matters there. You're spending it so you need to know how much you can spend.

>DnD

Seems like you could replace the XP with something else rather then add that much more book keeping even for people who don't use XP for crafting.

For systems where your exact XP really matters, because you actually spend it, you'd be absurd to not try and track it.

For systems where it doesn't mean a damn thing until you reach an arbitrary threshold, there really isn't a thing wrong with going the level up when it seems appropriate route. There's plenty of other ways to reward/incentivize certain behaviors: relevant bonuses to rolls, loot, contacts, etc. It seems kind of strange that only an arbitrary number going up that won't even do anything for a damn long time is sufficient incentive to do things.

>>43659531
I am just defending it for dnd because I like magic crafting for characters, and only when I have to play 3.5 because some character ideas and classes work off needing exact xp totals.

If I want to play those, I always make sure the dm will allow that type of character and then sit down with them out of the game to discuss how much I got, what I spent on what and what it made. I do most of the grunt work for them, finding it fair because I am asking to play those characters and I teach math so it is easy to do low grade equations.

>>43639850
Bitch, this was what happened all the time when I was first playing tabletop games and still DOES at some games at the group I meet at and I've been gaming for nine years now!

Quests did not cause this; your myopia did!

>>43640346
Reasonably certain that's a trap.

>>43639543
Option #3.

XP by game time (4 hour session), plus objective-based bonuses. Much like in Shadowrun.

Applying this is D&D: 1/4 level every 4h.

It works out to roughly the same as if we track individual encounters, except now I can skip all the bookkeeping, and if a session is light on the combat, well we're not losing out on xp because of it.

>>43664537
Don't track time to the minute, round game sessions to the nearest 4h chunk.

>>43639543
Dear god I prefer hard XP
I hate levelling up "whenever the DM feels like it" while having no idea how close or far away I am from doing so

>>43666200
Why do you care? What power do you falsely believe you'll have in the outcome? And how does that improve either the game state or the story beats?

>>43667663
>Why do you care?
If you don't want game mechanics go read a book instead.

>>43645301
Been playing D&D for years (decades actually), and after years of ForeverDMing I've come to hate Hard XP.
It completely breaks immersion, and changes the way most players try to RP their characters, especially in WotC D&D, where keeping count of hard XP is irrelevant

>>43639794
>>43641375

Tried hard XP just one time with WoD God Machine bitz system and it went EXACTLY like that.

>>43640265
That's bullshit. With soft Xp the players can be still rewarded after doing something that earned it like saving the kingdom. Hard Xp make players earn xp based on how many bear they stab in the forest.

>>43641762
How the fuck is someone supposed to catch up? Having encounters in solo when he's the weakest member of the party or removing the focus from the actual quest to watch the newbie train alone?

"Catching up" in a collaborative Rpg is bullshit. Either it waste a lot of time for everyone else or it cause the weakest member of the party to risk even more, increasing the probabilities he'll die and remain behind.

>>43668380
>How the fuck is someone supposed to catch up?
You see, the XP required to go up a level isn't some static number. Higher levels require more XP to increase, so the low-level guy went up 8 while you went up 1.

>>43645027
Any not-shit Dm would just find a reason for not having the Party fight the same fucking encounter 10 times. Otherwise why they even need a DM?

>>43644877
>"I want to get to the next level, and that means clearing the mission, not messing around with this.

Refusing a sidequest because the main quest is more important is a perfectly fine roleplaying, it just means that you aren't going to legalize gay weddings while the Lich is raising his undead army.

Refusing plot hooks on crunch reasons just means you are an awful roleplayer and should learn to play or get the fuck out.

>>43668319
>It completely breaks immersion
So what? I rather have no immersion than throwing out the game aspect and turning the whole thing into a session of "listen to the DM tell a story nobody cares about".

>>43668395
If he's still gaining the same xp than the others but he advances more quickly because of mechanics then he's not trying to catch up, he's gonna catch up no matter what he does. There is absolutely no player agency in that, it's just an arbitrary "you have to wait 6 sessions to be at the same level of the others".

>>43668457
>"listen to the DM tell a story nobody cares about".

Maybe LoL is more appropriate for you than a pen and paper RPG then.

>>43668470
>he's still gaining the same xp than the others
Is he? Are you one of those schlubs that gives everybody xp from everything, no matter whether or not they were actually involved?

When I DM the party levels up when it suits the plot and regardless of attendance because this is fucking game night, you know, a fun social thing

How fucking autistic do you have to be to take a fucking attendance register every week and punish people? Do you understand how normal people socialise? Do you all work in middle management or something?

What next, timed bathroom breaks?

>>43668506
>punish people
>not rewarding absence is now punishment
You sound like a shit DM.

>>43668490
Are you retarded? Follow the reply chain.

If he's doing more than the rest of the party is bullshit because he either wasted a lot of session time focusing on his "training" or he's fucked because the next time the lv 8 party is gonna fight lv 8 Ogres his lv 4 character can either be cautios and do almost nothing because he's not an encounter he can partecipate in and so he'll remain forever behing or he can jump into first line against them and being crushed because they are lv 8 and he's lv 4.

>>43668482
Are you forgetting that the G in RPG stands for Game? Game mechanics are a fundamental part of the whole thing and are a lot more important than shitty GMs like you wanting to shove your retarded story down our throats.

Baby I can give you a hard experience any time you want.
Sexual innuendo works relatively well when it comes time to break the ice.

>>43668522
I'm really terrible at it.

>>43668513

Are you for fucking real?

Someone has something come up and can't make it round to play pretend wizards for one week? So fucking what, this isn't an office job, I don't keep a personal record, they can come back next time and join in.

It's a game you neurotic shit, something people do for fun, and if they have something more important than wizard games one week that's fine.

>>43668520
Again, then why not playing LoL? It has all the plotless killing things that you want without any retarded story.

>>43668534
And why are you not writing a book that nobody will read instead of ruining games that you clearly don't like?

>>43645301
Look man numbers harsh my mellow. Like, they seriously trigger me. I play a diceless, numberless, homebrew passed down to me by spiritual beings while I was in a fever dream.

>>43663894
That doesn't answer my question.

>>43668527
Breaking the ice or using innuendo? Innuendo is simple as reading the situation and figuring out what's acceptably lewd, then making a joke that's within the limits. Breaking the ice is easy when you realize that nobody else really exists and your life is in your head anon. Just practice breaking the ice with imaginary people, then break the ice with real imaginary people!

>>43639850

Seriously though who has the fucking time to do that? People have jobs. I will happy stay up a bit later one evening to write up ideas for locations/NPC/player character plot but to crunch XP? Fuck that.

>>43668543
I like them. It's simply an objective fact that if you remove the narrative from pen and paper RPG they are inferior in every way to videogame RPG.

It's like picking a basket of both apples and oranges instead of one of only apples if you hate oranges. Why the fuck aren't you just picking the apples one? For you It's better in absolutely every way and you don't have to whine about oranges.

>>43668530
>the wizard's player couldn't make it, so the wizard was at the tavern this session
>but he still deserves the XP for defeating that cult
Way to make people feel like their in-game accomplishments mean something for their character.

>>43668661
>objective

Words have meanings, your personal opinion is not an objective fact.

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>>43644217
If you're playing almost any other game than D&D, XP isn't rewarded based on what you kill, it's based on either GM discretion or some kind of plot advancement checklist, which makes the autistic number crunching you describe impossible.

Seriously, the solution to damn near every problem you experience with your games can be solved by playing something other than D&D.

>>43668530
>if they have something more important than wizard games one week that's fine
Then they just have to accept that they are going to be a lower level than the rest of the party.

>>43668730
That seems like a really good way to get rid of a player. Can they at least earn back XP? Or do you play campaigns where people die enough that level doesn't matter as much?

>>43668725
Care to say even one way in which pen and paper is better than videogames if you remove narrative then?

>>43668750
Not arbitrarily limited by what the game designers did, you have an actual person controlling NPC's and creatures instead of an often poor AI.

And that is not just a narrative benefit, assuming your DM knows what he is doing NPC's will be more realistic in general and be more of a challenge than videogame NPC's.

>>43668750
Why can't you just get along and agree its a RPG.
There is narrativist role play. There are gamist rules.
They go hand in hand to keep the medium functional.
At the end of the day your playing a game, where you play a role in a story. The rules are there to help the story, and the story is there to help the rules.

>>43639543
I wish the chicks I knew could pull off coloured hair that well. Yet to see someone pull it off IRL.

Anyways, HARD XP.

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>>43668750
It depends on how you define "narrative." A real RPG is limited only by its GM. A game is of course limited to what its developers designed it to be. Video games are great for lots of things, but they can't do anything to accommodate their players. They are what they are, and no developer could possibly have enough resources, manpower, and skill, to satisfy every player - that's fine, they shouldn't have to. Pen and paper can handle anything the group is willing to tolerate.

>>43668767
>being a gamist
>being a narrativist
plebs leave please

>>43668762
Then play PvP and MMoRPG instead of Diablo?


>>43668767
I agree with this. I'm not the faggot that is arguing that if it involves a narrative then it's just "listening to the DM tell a story nobody cares about".

>>43639543
I want it like my issue of King and Country. Strong, soft and thoroughly absorbant

>>43668796
S-sorry I was just watching you argue and didn't like seeing people fight over silly stuff. Your post was just the closest and I figured if the other anon was gonna reply he'd see my reply too!

>>43668715
it matters as much as beating 1-1 at Mario or winning Catan

it is a GAME

people play games for fun

what is wrong with you

>>43668853
And game have rules. Don't like them? Then don't fucking play.

>>43668895
A-anon isn't the goal of the game to have fun. If you're making people suffer because they had to miss a session for IRL reasons isn't that a little mean? That's taking away their fun, and I don't think anyone wants that. Sure there should be struggles and victories, and if the player isn't there maybe they miss an item or some RP bonus but penalizing them so they can't enjoy the game is surely the wrong way to go about things.

>>43668895

Tabletop RPGS are specifically about blending rules and narrative. Only caring about one aspect or the other loses what makes them special.

I know it's easy to get lost in hyperbole while arguing on the internet, but there's no reason to take such a hardline stance on a subject that doesn't need one.

>>43668853
>seriously advocating rewarding people for not doing anything
If you give out enough XP in a single session that missing it will massively hurt a character, you're probably giving out too much XP per session.

>>43668715

You know what makes people feel like their in-game accomplishment mean something for the character? By making them mean something for the character beyond "now I do 7 damage instead of 6".

If someone lose the session the fact that he didn't spent an evening having fun with his friends is oftern punishment enought. Adding arbitrary punishments because he didn't consider playing pretend a thing important enought is retarded and only result in antagonizing him.

>>43668974
or, you don't bother with XP tracking and just say when they gain levels

>>43668895
show me where in the DMG it tells me to take attendance

your "punishment" for not coming is, you know, not being there

>>43668994
>you don't bother with XP tracking and just say when they gain levels
But that's cancer, and some systems make you buy your improvements with your XP.

>>43668796
Are you trolling or do you actually think a shitty MMO has anything even close to what you get from a tabletop RPG combat wise?

>>43669022
When all you care about the game is how much damage you do and how many xp you gain to increase the damage you do yes, MMO is exactly the same thing you get from a tabletop RPG except with the computer doing your math for you.

>>43669034
So you are brain-dead.

>>43669008
1) WHY is it cancer?
2) What about systems where you DON'T use xp to buy improvements.

I don't see what the big goddamn deal is with all this.

>>43669034
>>43669022
I think combat-anon means you have alot more creative ways of approaching combat in an RPG compared to any Video game. Combat anon do you really believe that a RPG doesn't benefit from storytelling and plot? Not the forced DM monologue plot, but the character based and player motivated well ran plot?

>>43669034
So you are ignoring the huge range of extra options you have from a tabletop RPG that you do not get from a computer RPG. Is this through ignorance or are you just trying to piss people off?

>>43669047
>1) WHY is it cancer?
Because your improvement is left entirely up to the GM, so you have no way of knowing whether or not your actions are actually contributing to your character's mechanical growth or not.

>2) What about systems where you DON'T use xp to buy improvements.
Nah ah ah lad. We've already been talking about those. It's your method, you have to explain how you'd handle systems where you DO use XP to buy improvements, while those of us that actually track XP can rest assured that we'll be able to use those systems.

>>43669069
I am a different person, I am just pointing out how retarded it is to say the ONLY advantage a tabletop RPG has over videogames is narrative.

When that is simply not the case if your GM is even remotely competent.

>>43669076
>>43669087

If "nobody cares about the story" what difference it makes if you do 100 damage by using "backstab" or by dropping a stone on the head of a sleeping dragon? It's the same fucking thing. You did 100 damage.

>>43669047
It's bad because people from 2e said so anon. Some people are stuck in very old RPG rules, in 2e it was okay to have a party of differing levels, in 2e it was okay to play with a rolled character, in 2e EXP and level penalties weren't game breaking. Alot of older players are still fixated on that idea and follow it to the letter. EXP and CR are a good way to balance encounters in the more modern games but levels should be at least somewhat related to the plot and downtime IMHO especially when they are occasionally huge leaps in power.

>>43669083
>Because your improvement is left entirely up to the GM, so you have no way of knowing whether or not your actions are actually contributing to your character's mechanical growth or not.
You improvement is left to the GM anyway so it's a moot point; and you can get feedback after each fight in terms of a fraction to the next level.

>It's my method
More like it's something I'll use, occasionally, depending on the game I'm running. I've played a lot of games that have hard xp that buys improvement, and I'll generally not change it, too much...I just don't understand why someone using either method is such skub bait.

>>43669105
>you can get feedback after each fight in terms of a fraction to the next level.
Why not just use proper XP at this point?

>>43669097
So you are just refusing to acknowledge the advantages tabletops have over videogames on purpose, got it. I hope acting pathetic and wasting our time for absolutely no reason made you feel better.

Should have guessed when you said MMO's were better for combat and having a realistic, immersive world than a tabletop RPG with a good GM really.

>>43669083
You have to be extremely retarded not to just give a set number of xp instead of a level if you are playing a game without levels.

>>43669099
I'm from 2e, and I'll use soft experience if I feel like it. I'm here from yesterday: >>43645587

>>43669113
Because I don't want to? Because it accommodates a player that's incomprehensibly salty about not being told in an exact manner how quickly he's leveling? Because it's one less thing for me to keep track of on top of everything else?

>>43639750
>Doing individual XP
>Having levels

>>43669008
>some systems make you buy your improvements with your XP.

substitute "you level up" with "you gain X experience"

>>43669125
Dude the whole thing started by someone saying that he doesn't care about realism, immersion or story. It's obvious that if someone cares about those tabletop rpg are better.

>>43669135
>Because I don't want to? Because it accommodates a player that's incomprehensibly salty about not being told in an exact manner how quickly he's leveling? Because it's one less thing for me to keep track of on top of everything else?
Translation: Because I am a gigantic faggot.

>>43642185
>what is logistic rating for 100

>>43669164
>translation: I'm just here to fling shit, poison the well, and care more about calling people names on the webbernet than actually having a discussion in good faith about the merits and flaws of a given set of houserules in a given subset of ttrpgs.

>>43642185

This pretty common, dude. You have M&M-style stuff where wealth is basically just shown in fluff, the equipment you have and the Wealthy benefit (which hardly does anything), there's Storyteller systems where there's the Resource system, GURPS has a variant for abstract wealth, there's D20M's abomination of a wealth system, non-Dark Heresy 40k RPGs have profit factor/infamy/etc systems...shit man abstract wealth has been here for a long time and has gotten fairly varied.

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>>43669180
An extremely shitty system.

>>43669184
Sure buddy, you keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile, I'll be over here using the measuring tools I've been provided with.

>>43669158
Yet someone who thinks a videogame is better than a tabletop RPG for combat or for having NPC's who act realistically does not give a shit about immersion either.

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>not wanting to keep track of exp
What kind of new-age bullshit is this?

>>43642631
But I like beans...

>>43669213
Yes. That was the actual point. That is if that guy think that immersion, realism and narrative is something nobody cares about why the fuck is he playing tabletop RPG while Videogame RPGs are worse only in ways that according to him don't matter?

>>43669259
Beans are shit.

>>43669265
Except you can have much more tactical combat in an RPG. Are you posting from the special school again?

>>43669280
Well yeah, eventually, after I eat 'em. Seriously though, beans are pretty dope. #fuckbitchesgetbeans

>>43669296
Beans are peas' disgusting cousins.

>>43669305
You can keep your little green balls of baby shit, bro. Peas are fucking worse than Satan's taint. Fuck peas.

>>43669325
Peas, like carrots, are fine as long as they aren't cooked.

>>43669335
Anyway, I use XP in games like Shadowrun or anything similar to it. For D&D, Patherfinder, etc. I just tell people to level whenever I deem it appropriate. Before anyone starts freaking out like they have on others in the thread, go ahead and save it. I don't give a shit. Unless you got beans. Then I'll give lots of shits.

>>43669265
You keep ignoring the fact tabletop combat has far many more options and is generally better than what is in a videogame.

NPC's are more realistic as well.

I run Werewolf the Forsaken 2E. You know, the edition where you have the beats system people can game like fucking hell. It uses EXP as currency for abilities, as opposed to buying levels.

If you think I actually follow the rules in the book for how to determine how much EXP to give, you're dead wrong. The conditions for earning beats (5 of which produce a whole EXP) are fucking moronic. It's a very, very arbitrary checklist, one which is so easy to game, but also so easy to have characters accomplish vast amounts of deeds and move vast amounts of plot and earn nothing for it, because they didn't do something silly.

"Oh, none of the characters took on a negative condition, and if they did have one, they didn't act out its specific little task to earn beats. I guess that even though they flawlessly executed a plan to take out the vampire muscling in on their territory, they only get 3 beats this session."

"Oh, none of the characters managed to fulfill one of the three goals they have to write on their character sheet, even if they explored their characters and accomplished a hell of a lot. Guess they only get 2 beats."

Etc, etc. So I completely ignore the books rules on what earns how many beats and eyeball it based on how much they impressed me that session. And I hand out the exact same amount of beats to everyone, and have people "earn" beats for sessions they missed by doing a bit of a solo scene to flesh out their character or what the hell they were doing while they were outside of the main session.

Because I know if I followed the normal rules for handing out beats, one of my players would be at 14 total EXP and another one of them would be at fucking 6, even though they've showed for the exact same amount of scenes and put in about the same effort, work, and risk-taking.

>>43669627
White Wolf games shit, further news after the break.

>>43669627
>even though they've showed for the exact same amount of scenes and put in about the same effort, work, and risk-taking.

But they weren't?
One of them was playing the game and the other was doing a bunch of ancillary bullshit and is now salty he isn't on par with someone following the rules.

And if you want to bring "well he was accomplishing character goals" into it, then I'll point out that he essentially 'spent' exp on his personal story. That's a thing you narrativists like isn't it?

>>43639829
See I like somewhere in the middle in the form of a bennies system. you get so many of what amounts to tokens to turn in at a given point by doing shit to level up. Or you can use them for things like an extra ability use, HP regain etc. but to get them isn't exactly a simple affair usually and you'll need to do quests, be good at roleplaying situations etc.

>>43640265
in this day and age it leads to a lets grind shit till we level mentality.

>>43669207
an extremely unshitty system.

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>>43645301
mfw

>>43639543
I usually do soft EXP, just because I don't feel like tracking the EXP for each monster and trap and encounter the PCs come across. Instead, I get a feel for the group and the story that's unfolding as they go about their business and level them up whenever it feels appropriate.

My group isn't complaining. We can get to high level pretty quick if they actively go for hard fights and grandiose adventures, but if they keep a more low key tone we tend to treat levels are more rare rewards and instead focus on giving them other things like reputation, titles and material rewards.

If my group ever decided they wanted to do Hard EXP I would switch, though. It's bothersome but the only thing that matters here is that everyone enjoys themselves.

>>43643357

Great, now I have a boner!

>>43669208
You are more then welcome to shove them right up your ass, yes.

>>43639794
I will say, as a DM, the Hard EXP thing can be useful, because I can BUILD to it.

I ran a campaign in college, where we weren't guaranteed more than 10 or so sessions per story, so we played on an accelerated level. I looked at how much XP it would take to get them to the next level, and that's how much I used in the accumulated challenges of the session.


Basically, I mixed soft and hard, by saying "look, I already ran the math, today's session, if you complete everything, will give you a level."

Beyond that, I will say I mostly see Hard XP in 3.P games, and of course early D&D, since they intentionally tied some balance ideas to it.

>>43642185
Wealth has been abstracted in games for a decade now. You're late to the fucking party.

Though, to be fair, you're also TWENTY years late on the experience complaint, given White Wolf's prominence in the 90's, and their stance on XP.

And D&D hasn't had different PROGRESSION rates for different classes in 16 years.

So, in short, I have to ask: "What else do you know about the condition of gaming, Mr McFly? And where'd you get a vintage Delorean?"

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>>43643357
>ugh, now I'm imagining General Grevious doing that.

Bueno.

>>43639875
>Teddy
>I'LL GET THAT HEDGEHOG SOMEDAY