/wodg/ World of Darkness General

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Alternatively, 'How to spot when you made a Pandoran'

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Reposting from last thread:

>I've been reading the Greywalker series, and while I think Kat Richardson has trouble describing things (come to think of it, I wonder if maybe that's because of the whole "she doesn't own a television" thing her About page proudly declares?) and the .epub has some bad formatting and a few spelling errors, but Greywalker is really good for an idea of what Twilight might be like--she's very much got that whole Geisty "seeing the dead all the time and having trouble drowning them out" thing going on--as well as the way that her connection to the Grey gives her what amounts to Mage Sight.

>She sees auras, and can sense magical effects. Going deep into the Grey--what is effectively Twilight, the place of creatures of death like ghosts and vampires and zombies, and also a place where there are the remnants of different time periods all stacked on top of one another, with ghosts and Greywalkers able to move between them; ghosts walking through walls is described with the same rationale that I've used, they simply walk through an area where there's no wall in Twilight--means that she's also able to see the underlying fabric of reality, which she sees as taut, pulsing strings of living energy. Some of the chapters seem like exactly the kind of descriptions that DaveB has used for Mage Sight and how it feels and functions.

>>43607245
Being Human is a pretty decent show; both the US and the UK versions. I like the UK version more, in terms of story, though.
It's sourced in the Beast book, iirc, as an Inspiration, though, so I guess it's a bit of a given. Basically, it's about a Vampire(Daeva or Ventrue, both fit)and a Werewolf(more of a Wolf-Blooded with a Tell that turns him into Gauru or Urshul form on the full moon, depending on which show you watch), who decide to move into a house together to try and pretend they're human for as long as possible. They quickly realize they have a third housemate, though, a Ghost(Rank 1 to start out, but she raises to Rank 3 or 4 by the start of the second season). The shows have their own separate mythologies, and they go separate ways after the first season, so it's worth watching them both.

In The Flesh could also be used as a piece of Inspiration for a Promethean game: The PDS-sufferers are all Frankensteins, and some fuckhead(probably a mage) found a way to channel the Divine Fire into the corpse of everyone who died within the past year. Of course, it didn't go exactly as planned; something went wrong, and they start out as mindless zombies who eat people. Eventually, though, some other mages figure out a way to treat the plight and return the zombies to sentience. That doesn't mean the rest of the world is happy with the walking corpses, though. The show tells the story of one guy's experiences after he's released from the treatment facility.

Lost Girl screams of Changeling, and a bit of every other splat as well, given that EVERYBODY in the show with any kind of supernatural ability falls in the category of "Fae". They stick to Light and Dark courts, but the show is about the one woman-a Darkling Succubus-who chooses not to align herself with either court.

From Dusk Til Dawn: The Series is a group of mortals finding themselves at the mercy of a group of Setites.

In Demon the Descent, the party primarily operate together when they're doing Demon stuff or their Covers are covering matters that benefit the Demons right? Does that mean that most Cover stuff that isn't related to plotting, scheming and fighting the power is relegated to Downtime stuff?

I'm running Demon soon and I want to do right by it, since I love the ideas behind it. I really like that each Cover has its own compromises.

Are guns ever going to be actually effective in world of darkness?

>>43607719
>Don't have to worry about Defense affecting the roll
>Every success on the roll translates to a point of lethal damage being done to your enemy, plus whatever the weapon's damage is
>Only defense against them is Armor or sacrificing your turn to Dodge

They already are, in 2e.

>>43607699

Most of it should be delegated to downtime, but there should be plot hooks that are related to a Demon's cover as well. It doesn't have to be supernatural, but it should make going out and doing Demon things just a bit tougher. A Demon game is at its best when a character is seriously considering Going Loud at least once per story.

>>43607719
>>43607761
Guns have ALWAYS been super effective.

New WoD player here. I'm reading through the sourcebooks now and I'm getting the distinct impression that Mages = Batman

>>43607719
As long as you aren't facing something insanely fast guns will outshine melee weapons any day of the week. Against critters who get defence against firearms, they "merely" have a range advantage.

>>43607245
Have we heard anything beyond "current kickstarters will deliver"?

Getting concerned.

Have there been any significant spoilers about the new nWOD corebook, particularly the new monster creation system?

>>43608196
Quote Chris: "No one told me to stop writing"

>>43608254
Yeah but writers don't get paid until things get published, so the only thing they risk by not telling them to stop writing is their continued working relationships. If they lose the licenses they don't need those.

>>43608196

>Have we heard anything beyond "current kickstarters will deliver"?

Nothing more from Onyx Path. Paradox has spoken a little more, but only vague PR corporate-speak without any meaningful details. On the plus side, developers have not yet been told to put any of their projects on hold or other bad news.

I doubt Paradox has finalized plans about any of the properties, other than a desire to create video games, and they're still getting to know the people at Onyx Path and By Night Studios.

I doubt we'll here anything remotely definitive before Christmas.

>>43608163
In 1e, yes, they are the strongest splat in the game if they have time to prepare/do a ritual casting of a spell.

>>43608163
>>43608275
Trust me, it's a lot easier to write Batman than it is to play Batman.

>>43607870
Right, thanks. I was planning to incorporate Covers into the story in neat (hopefully) ways, so players can use elements of their covers (Hey, one of my covers works in a building that overlooks that place!) within the larger story.

Demonic Form is just that as well right? A Demon can't just kick back with its Tesla-Coil tail and watch the birds fly by without starting to bomb compromise rolls? Is Cover "the norm"?

>>43608272
>I doubt Paradox has finalized plans about any of the properties, other than a desire to create video games, and they're still getting to know the people at Onyx Path and By Night Studios.
Oh, anon, they know the guys at By Night really, really well. It's Onyx Path they have a somewhat more...complex relationship with.

By Night Studios will get a license extension, although they will have to work with Ericsson's metaplot. Won't be a problem for them, I imagine.

>>43608310
Cover is 100% the norm. Having any Demonic Form abilities manifested in Cover risks Compromise, and Going Loud completely destroys your cover.

Is there anyone out there who have tried out games from different splats? As a new player, everyone seems to want to play something different. Can we all conceivably play together if we're all from different sourcebooks? Not just literally, but storywise as well?

>>43608362
Excellent, glad I'm not misreading this. I know Demons can see all the God Machines infrastructure (unless it's extra-well hidden), does this apply to Angels and other Demons as well? What's to stop an Integrator revealing himself and saying "There's a Demon in the 7/11 here, I'll show you"

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>>43608397
>What's to stop an Integrator revealing himself and saying "There's a Demon in the 7/11 here, I'll show you"
BWARGH!

>>43608522
Say I hadn't seen Worlds End. Hypothetically. Explain?

>>43608533
Invasion of the Body Snatchers with drunks. The body snatchers are robot aliens that want to make the world better (and assimilate people).

>>43608397
Demons can't be seen in Cover, and if you reveal your true form, you risk being flagged by the God-Machine. An Integrator probably could find an Angel and rat out his comrades (and they have). But most Integrators are well aware that the Angels that come after them are likely not smart enough or given enough privileges to go through with that, and are more likely to just scrap the Integrator himself.

Angels have varying degrees of sentience.

>>43608599
Right, so am I correct in saying that a Demon in cover may start looking into another Demon in cover, thinking they're an Angel in cover?

>>43608643
Yes.
That is a great plot hook, in fact.
Techgnostic Espionage at it's finest.

>>43608208
>Have there been any significant spoilers about the new nWOD corebook, particularly the new monster creation system?

Do we know who's developing and writing the new basic corebook, and what's different besides the monster creation system?

>>43608356

You seem like you know stuff. Care to elaborate on how BNS knows them so well and why OPP might have a rougher time?

>>43608643
Happens all the time. Hell, really the only thing different between an Angel and a Demon is who they're working for. And even then, that's not always certain.

Sometimes a Demon turns out to have been an Angel the whole time, and can compromise an entire organization.

>>43608772
No one "knows". He assumes. And By Night likely has better relationships because Dracula is "the bad boy of Swedish LARP". OPP isn't necessarily going to have a *rough* time, but they don't have the same closeness that BNS presumably had.

>>43608772
>Care to elaborate on how BNS knows them so well
Sjogren and Ericsson are both very active and prominent in the Nordic LARP scene. I figured this was a known known at this point.

>and why OPP might have a rougher time?
The God-Machine is an excellent example of OPP doing things around the desires of Ericsson, who was working for CCP on the World of Darkness MMO. That's not going to be looked upon fondly by the guy who's basically going to be running the gameline.

>>43608533
I'm just pointing out that it's not really a good idea to go up to someone and tell them that someone in their general area is a Demon, mostly because they will do one of three things; Look at you funny, grab a shotgun (if they're a Hunter.) or go 'BWARGH!' and decompile your sorry ass (if they're an Angel)

So, does anyone know how spell potency is going to work in 2e? Is it going to cost us 2 die for each one? And will ritual casting have smaller die pools it just higher successes needed line before? I know Dave has given some spoilers on the matter.

>>43608727

The Hurt Locker is the first suppliment and David Hill is working on that. Dunno about the core.

>>43608266
Interestingly, that's not how my contract works re payment. Suffice to say that it would be in OP's interest to tell me to stop if they didn't intend to publish what I'm writing.

>>43608849

Is that really going to be a huge sticking point? It seemed like the only real problem CCP had with the GMC stuff was outright calling it a second edition and treating it as such.

>>43608960
>Is that really going to be a huge sticking point?
Considering the stated intention is for there to be one World of Darkness? It seems like it is. When your opening volley is "fuck this thing that you did, specifically" it's usually not a good sign for a compromise.

>>43608886

The primary factor of any spell has a base of the character's level in the relevant Arcana.

Ritual casting has totally changed from 1e. Every spell has now has the same basic dice pool and mechanics. The default time to cast a spell is "ritual time," which I believe is unchanged from 1e, and a character must spend a reach to cast the spell as an instant action (plus any time needed for Yantras).

>>43608254
That's a great epitaph.

>>43608849
>The God-Machine is an excellent example of OPP doing things around the desires of Ericsson, who was working for CCP on the World of Darkness MMO. That's not going to be looked upon fondly by the guy who's basically going to be running the gameline.
What makes you say that? It's not like Ericsson was the head of CCP. For all you know he could have been against the choice to keep OPP from making a second edition. Even then, like >>43608960 says, the only problem CCP had was calling it a second edition.

CCP signed off on the GMC, its not like it was some kind of "we're going around our bosses' backs" thing. They knew about it and approved.

>>43608886
Spell Factors are -2, and you get automatic Potency equal to your Arcana dots (I don't particularly like that last bit). Ritual casting takes considerable amount of time, but there's only a single roll no matter what, which stops the whole "I perform this ritual for 24 hours straight and get six hundred successes" bullshit of 1e.

>>43608986
We still don't know what "One World of Darkness" means. I still doubt that they mean cWod and nWoD are getting merged, because that wouldn't really sit well with ANYONE, not to mention how different they are.

We all know that Paradox now owns World of Darkness, but does that include the Storytelling system?

>>43609025
There's only a single roll for ritual casting now? So is the only benefit not spending a reach on an instant action?

>>43609025
>We still don't know what "One World of Darkness" means.
You don't. Anyone who knows Tobias or Martin does. It means Classic World of Darkness. It means LARP, it means Bloodlines. Those are the things they know and love and want to work on.

>>43609043

Yes. Storytelling and Storyteller are trademarks of White Wolf. The system itself, in theory, could still be used and cloned, but you can't call it either of those names or use any of the proprietary game terms. This is why D20 suppliments say "compatible with popular d20 systems" if they don't have Pathfinder's seal of approval or pass Wizard's GSL license. This is also why Onyx Path uses the Story Path engine to power Trinity and Scion.

>tfw Book of Going Westward is never gonna fucking happen

>>43609138

It's such a bummer because we've heard from the Deceived and we're going to hear from The Heretic, but I want to hear the Judges side of the story. It's the missing link to truly flesh out all the meta Mummy factions. I'd rather not have the Traditionalists be the "always wrong" faction.

>>43609120

I guess the easy thing to do would be to have CWOD be the top promoted media. Give the transmedia story to that setting, and let nWoD do its own thing in a smaller tabletop pond.

But even with saying that, I keep thinking of what happened to Ultimate Marvel. It's not like fanboys are prone to making smart decisions.

>>43609043
They own EVERYTHING White Wolf related.
Game systems, unfinished code and assets for the MMO, the unfinished assets for that Werewolf RPG someone was talking about, the branding, the tee shirts, the old books, the episodes of Kindred: The Embraced...
If the White Wolf part of CCP had a stapler? They fuckin own that too.

>>43609077
Also you can use more Yantras. Each Yantra adds a turn. Also, rituals are better for Paradox.

>>43609120
>You don't
And neither do you, so stop spreading false information. People don't just scrap projects because they're not fans. You don't get rid of an entire lucrative revenue stream--the most lucrative one you've got--just because you like the other things better. And he also likes Promethean. It's INCREDIBLY unlikely that nWoD is going to be scrapped, and even if it is, it certainly won't be any time soon.

>>43609129
I thought that you could only directly use d20 because Wizards of the Coast released 3.5 under OGL.

>>43609138
Who knows? nMummy has a pretty good chance of replacing oMummy if Paradox guys actually love their grimdark as /tg/ says.

>>43609263
>the unfinished assets for that Werewolf RPG someone was talking about
Wait...what? Is this a thing? Because I want it to be a thing.

>>43609246
Yeah, but if anything the Ultimate Marvel equivalent would be cWoD at this point.

Frankly, I'm expecting something more along the lines of the Marvel Cinematic Universe and how the comics *look* similar, kind of, but are much much different. I expect to see things like versions of oWoD characters in nWoD or a television series or video game series that's *similar* to both mashed together, but isn't entirely the same.

They've outright stated that they want to do something that is easier on "neonates" but still has things to get the "elders" excited. If anything that likely means a nWoD approach to cWoD things. If we see a change, it's honestly more likely to be in the other direction due to nWoD's toolboxy nature. But, again, this is all speculation and more than a little wishful thinking. But I do expect that canceling nWoD isn't in the books.

>>43609246
>Give the transmedia story to that setting, and let nWoD do its own thing in a smaller tabletop pond.
It's possible they'd do this. Although really I think they'd look for Classic World of Darkness with updated (read: nwod) mechanics.

>>43609263
>And neither do you, so stop spreading false information
I'm sorry you find facts so offensive. But take the lesson of the American Republican. If you rail and rail and rail against reality, eventually other gullible fools will believe you.

>>43609246

I'd honestly just love more fuel for the speculation fire, especially when it comes to the "Judges of Life/Judges of Death" thing. That, and I'd kill to see each Judge get illustrated.

>>43609297

Gimme my Crusader Kings/Mummy crossover, Paradox.

>>43609263

The OGL makes it easier, but you can't actually copyright game rules. You copyright the terms, the setting, the books themselves but the mechanics? For now, they're in the clear, because no one has tested that in court.

The genius and fatal flaw of the OGL was that it opened up damn near everything for use, save for the important copyrights. Everyone could make money without a cent going back to Wizards and eventually someone discovered how to use the OGL to replicate previous editions of D&D, sparking the OSR.

>>43609375
>I'm sorry you find facts so offensive
They're not facts. You have nothing at all to prove what you're saying. That's what speculation is.

>>43609404
I've heard people say that about game rules before, yet I've never seen anyone try to use anything other than OGL. I mean, no one's used GURPS' system. Although I guess you can't copyright "d20+adds" but you can copyright the specific array of Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma.

And of course there's the fact that Pathfinder still says that it's OGL, so presumably it needs to.

>>43609453
>They're not facts. You have nothing at all to prove what you're saying. That's what speculation is.
So you're saying that Sjogren and Ericsson are not, in fact, prominent members of the Nordic LARPing community?

That they are not, in fact, fairly closely involved with By Night Studios, which explains why they showed up for the Halloween bash in New Orleans.

That they have not, in fact, said they intend to pursue a single World of Darkness business model with a metaplot underlying the multimedia products?

Ok.

>>43609297

CAS always did say that he felt MtR was a bit too light in tone when he was developing it. I could see it happening.

>>43609399

Oh god yes. All those descriptions scream for an illustration. The Temakh pictures were incredible.

>>43609497
Those are first two are facts, yes. The third is mostly fact, with a bit of speculation at the end.

"They like oWoD and hate nWoD and want to cancel it because they hate OPP for going behind their backs and making a nWoD2e" is speculation.

They've said exactly nothing about a metaplot, and the only thing they've said about their One World of Darkness idea is that they want something easier for people to get into, but with depth that pleases the fans.

>>43609360

Nah, cWoD's always been the 616 equivalent. Compared to the mind share and readership, nWoD's always been a smaller share, much like Ultimate. The line going dark for about five years doesn't change that.

I don't think nWoD'll be totally phased out either, but let's be real here. There's a legion of lapsed gamers who came in and put of the scene only because of cWoD, who don't know about the 20th anniversary editions, and whose only news has been that Paradox bought White Wolf. They're an untapped market looking for nostalgia.

>>43609559
This is exactly like watching a Republican pundit try to explain things.

"ALL OF THESE FACTS DON'T MATTER!"

>>43608886
Reading the yantras blog and the Paradox blog will tell you most of what you need to know.

The short version: There's no way to roll your dicepool multiple times and add up successes (ritual casting is the default now, and casting as a ritual means you can use the point of Reach you'd have used on casting instantly on something else, like using the better Duration table). You get free points in the primary factor (usually Potency or Duration, but probably also things like Area sometimes for something like a "detect lifeforms" spell) equal to the main Arcanum that the spell uses (i.e. that many steps up the chart. This could mean Potency 3 for Potency, or a week for Duration if you're using advanced duration, or someodd number of yards radius for an area). All other factors start at the bottom of their charts, and can be increased by removing dice from your pool, just like with 1e instant casting.

>>43609600
You're not giving facts. You're going with what you think is true. You're making assumptions. Show me where they say they're going to cancel the nWoD, or even where they're going to add metaplot. Link to a source. Cite me something or you're just shoveling bullshit.

>>43609576
>Nah, cWoD's always been the 616 equivalent.
Not really. I mean, if anything this is more like pre-Crisis and post-Crisis, but even then there's no connection between the nWoD and oWoD. It's as if they stopped running 616 and started running Ultimate. But for better or worse nWoD has been the only game in town--aside from the LARP, which, yes, Dracula likes a lot--for the better part of ten years. It was only recently that oWoD made a comeback, and even then it was only in the form of 20th Anniversary editions that, according to some (who's math I'll believe because I don't care to do my own) are showing less returns.

oWoD fans are more or less gone. The only way that people learn about oWoD is through word of mouth and Kickstarters. It's primarily the nWoD fans who are still with the game that are keeping it up and running. They're the ones who've been buying all of OPP's products, and who were buying the WoD products back when they were still a real company able to do whatever they wanted without corporate oversight.

Yes, Bloodlines is without a doubt the widest reaching aspect of the entire World of Darkness. And it's very likely that we'll see a lot more like that. But it would be incredibly stupid to tap that nostalgia market at the cost of a more stable market. And we've heard nothing that really implies they will, other than the panicked speculation of people who think Dracula must hate nWoD because he's an oWoD LARPer.

>>43609576
>going dark for about five years
>five years
By the time nWoD got its second edition, it had been going for longer than oWoD's entire lifespan.

>>43609814
One of the interviews the guy has done has mentioned doing a metaplot, actually. The guy's talking out of his ass on the "they've stated they're going to cancel nWoD" point.

>>43609814
>oWoD fans are more or less gone. The only way that people learn about oWoD is through word of mouth and Kickstarters.
And, you know, the people we get on a regular basis who go "Hey, I played Bloodlines, where can I learn more about VtM?"

>>43609843
>The guy's talking out of his ass on the "they've stated they're going to cancel nWoD" point.

>something that never happened

>>43609879
Then show me where they stated outright that they're going to cancel nWoD. The most we've heard on the subject is the guy responding to "please don't cancel nWoD or oWoD, treat both lines well" with "don't worry, we hear you" on twitter.

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>>43609843
Has he? Disgusting.

>>43609854
I acknowledged that Bloodlines is the most popular thing in the WoD.

>>43609904
I think >>43609879 is saying that he never said they were going to cancel nWoD. He just STRONGLY implied it.

>>43609814
>Cite me something or you're just shoveling bullshit.
I mean, it was kind of safe to assume you can't read. But you can't even Google search?

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/11/09/white-wolf-interview/

http://venturebeat.com/2015/10/29/paradox-interactive-buys-vampire-the-masquerade-publisher-white-wolf-from-ccp/

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-10-29-paradox-interactive-buys-white-wolf-publishing

https://twitter.com/shamsjorjani/status/659712955890712576

You can try searching for yourself for more.

>>43609904
>The most we've heard on the subject is the guy responding to "please don't cancel nWoD or oWoD, treat both lines well" with "don't worry, we hear you" on twitter.
and here's my source, for the people who are inevitably going to call bullshit: https://twitter.com/ShamsJorjani/status/659808252818006016

>>43609814

Dude, oWoD fans aren't gone. It still dominates my tabletop scene in my city, people still play Bloodlines and want to know about oWoD lore (and then lament its demise). Just the other day, I heard people refer to a Werewolf as "in Crinos form" a podcast that isn't even about tabletop games.

Aspel, you've got to wake up and face facts. Popularity on the internet is not the same as popularity in actual popular culture. You're letting your fandom interfere with your reasoning. If a business person had to choose one of the settings to promote, it would be the one with nostalgia power and a higher media penetration. It's just good business.

>>43609952
What aspects of this do you feel back up your claims?

In fact, let's start over. What are your claims? Since allegedly you're *not* saying they're going to cancel the nWoD, or smash the WoDes together. What do you feel is fact here?

Because from where I'm sitting you've made the accusation that >>43608356
>Oh, anon, they know the guys at By Night really, really well.
They know the BNS people really well. As far as I'm aware, Dracula's worked with them only as a player, and there's no evidence that he did any communication with any higher ups.
>although they will have to work with Ericsson's metaplot.
That the metaplot BNS is already working by will somehow be changed.
>>43608849
>The God-Machine is an excellent example of OPP doing things around the desires of Ericsson, who was working for CCP on the World of Darkness MMO.
That Ericsson would for some reason be made at OPP for publishing the God-Machine Chronicle
>That's not going to be looked upon fondly by the guy who's basically going to be running the gameline.
Despite the fact that there's no evidence he was even against it, considering CCP had creative control and needed to sign off on the OPP projects no matter what.
You--or someone similar to you--was also wrong about this >>43608266
>writers don't get paid until things get published
Which Chris pointed out is untrue >>43608943
And again more of >>43608986
>Considering the stated intention is for there to be one World of Darkness? It seems like it is. When your opening volley is "fuck this thing that you did, specifically" it's usually not a good sign for a compromise.
Which is speculation and misinformation. As far as we're aware at this point--as per the RPS interview--"One World of Darkness" means a tighter community. No one--not OPP or WW--has done anything that was "fuck that thing you did specifically". I'm not even sure what "this thing" is in reference to; The GMC? Again, not likely to be a "sticking point".

>>43610085
>people still play Bloodlines and want to know about oWoD lore (and then lament its demise).
And do you tell them that it is not in fact dead and has been getting new books published for the last few years?

>>43609120
>You don't. Anyone who knows Tobias or Martin does. It means Classic World of Darkness. It means LARP, it means Bloodlines. Those are the things they know and love and want to work on.
You say this as if that means something inherently troubling for anything other than those aspects. There's no indication it does. That's speculation. "They like this" means nothing about the things they don't like--and the assumption that they DON'T like the other things, as opposed to liking them less is speculation as well--and doesn't mean that there won't be aspects that don't entirely interest them.
>>43609375
>It's possible they'd do this. Although really I think they'd look for Classic World of Darkness with updated (read: nwod) mechanics.
This is definitely speculation.
>>43609497
>So you're saying that Sjogren and Ericsson are not, in fact, prominent members of the Nordic LARPing community?
True
>That they are not, in fact, fairly closely involved with By Night Studios, which explains why they showed up for the Halloween bash in New Orleans.
True-ish. There's no indication that they were "closely involved" with By Night Studios until the purchase. No closer than any other prominent member of the LARPs.
>That they have not, in fact, said they intend to pursue a single World of Darkness business model with a metaplot underlying the multimedia products?
Unfortunately it seems there is a bit of talk of Metaplot.

>>43610168
But then none of this matters, does it?

Did it at least make you feel better?

Instead of arguing about that changes that come with out new overlords, can you guys help me?

I could have sworn there was a Merit for being good at the Lex Magica but I can't find it.
Does anyone remember what it's called or what book it's in?

>>43610376
I can't remember seeing such a merit, but a guess would be either Sanctum & Sigil or Silver Ladder.

>>43610085
>Aspel, you've got to wake up and face facts. Popularity on the internet is not the same as popularity in actual popular culture.
Let's look at DriveThruRPG, where all of the White Wolf products are sold. Top 100 products, copies sold divided by days on sale:
>3. Mage: The Ascension
>12. Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd Edition
>30. Vampire 20th Anniversary Edition The Dark Ages
>31. Vampire: The Requiem 2nd Edition
>48. World of Darkness: The God-Machine Chronicle
>63. Vampire: The Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition
>66. Werewolf: The Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition
>85. Demon: The Descent
>86. Mind's Eye Theatre: Vampire The Masquerade
>95. V20 Dread Names, Red List
>99. Demon Translation Guide

Actually I'm not really sure what that tells us. I'm already skeptical of my own findings when Mage is higher than Vampire, so I assume that things are still weighted towards newer releases. Anyone know what the last oWoD kickstarter was? Beast made $116,383 and Dark Eras got $128,290.

Even then, I'm not talking about "popularity on the internet", I'm talking about what sells. And considering WoD isn't (generally) sold in stores anymore, popularity on the internet is still pretty important.

>>43610453
Or it might be that most people who wanted Vampire have already gotten it, whereas M:tA 20 is new, the people who want it are getting it now.

>>43610417
Thanks
Maybe I just hallucinated it

>>43610551
2e has one that got spoilered. Maybe that is the one you are thinking of? It was in Dave's Preview for the Silver Ladder (the website, not the Google doc).

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>>43610508
Like I said, it's ostensibly "how many copies are sold" divided by "how long it's been on sale". I'm no Mathamagician. That said it does serve to reason that, yeah, the longer it's been on sale without people buying it, the lower it's going to be. So that's not really helpful.

>>43610376
>>43610551

You might be thinking of the "High Legalese" sidebar in the Silver Ladder sourcebook, p. 123.

Alternatively, Dave spoiled the Mage 2e "Lex Magica" Merit available for Silver Ladder mages.

http://theonyxpath.com/my-body-is-a-cage-silver-ladder-mage-the-awakening/

>>43610568
That's the one!
God I can't wait until mage 2e comes out and I can stop confusing myself

>>43610712
And THAT'S what I was confusing myself with.
Thanks /tg/

>>43608365
Anyone?

>>43608365
It's not generally a good idea, as the different gamelines have both wildly different power levels and wildly different themes.

>>43607553
Picked it up a while ago then lost interest; didn't think it was anything special. You might have a point about that mage sight thing though, I'd give it another look-over at the library.

>>43608365
It can work if everyone is amazing but god, not for a first time game

>>43610887
>>43608365
>>43610906

As has been said, it is generally not a good idea, especially for a new ST.

What I would suggest is agreeing on one splat, but finding out *why* other players want to play those other splats. With some work, you can still give them an experience close to what they originally wanted out of the game, while keeping it limited to one kind of supernatural.

To give some examples of what I mean. Let's say you agree on Vampire: the Requiem. Here are some ideas how to get some of the feel of other splats into your game:

Mage > Mekhet Blood Sorcerer, ST might want to allow freeform Rituals ala Blood Sorcery (the book).

Promethean > A really bad Nosferatu, maybe give an extra Persistent Condition that makes them extra intolerable.

Changeling > The Embrace was kidnapping/torture like. They are now on the run from their Sire. Fae elements can be introduced as a Bloodline.

Geist > You are a spontaneous Embrace. Maybe a Nosferatu with a Ghost buddy haunting you.

And so on.

>>43609263
So it's not an extended action anymore? Weird.

>>43610999
Even the guy who wrote Blood Sorcery (the book) thinks it's badly-written overpowered bullshit.

>>43611008
Nope! Extended action casting was broke as hell, although apparently that's not the primary reason it was changed.

>>43610966
I read the first book and it was already, but the second didn't interest me because I'm fickle. I'm on the third now, though, and I'm liking it even if it's rather different from the things I like more.

>>43610999
>Mage > Mekhet Blood Sorcerer, ST might want to allow freeform Rituals ala Blood Sorcery (the book).
"Blood Sorcery was a mistake" ̶-̶ ̶H̶a̶y̶a̶o̶ ̶M̶i̶y̶a̶z̶a̶k̶i̶ - Dave Brookshaw

>>43611067
>>43611109

Yes, that is true, but it is better than the hassle of a Mage in the Coterie. The alternative would be to have the ST fix the broken system, but you cannot really expect that from a new ST.

Imperfect solutions for an imperfect world.

>>43611086
Shame. I'm going to miss extended action destiny creation. "Your destiny is to kill Vampires! +20d10 to killing Vampires."

>>43611443
And that is why it is kill.

>>43611513
>>43611443
Really, the biggest offender is Diplomat's Protection.

"You must have Resolve ●●●●● ●●●●● ●●●●● ●●●●● ●●●●● ●●●●● ●●●●● to even think about attacking me."

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Anyone have any good images for WoD thread starters? I've been grabbing cool looking pages from these Dresden Files comics, but surely there's more urban fantasy art than Dresden Files comics and that one artist.

Doesn't really even need to be urban fantasy, just has to look like something that could kickstart someone's creative juices or give whoever makes the thread topic ideas

>>43611513
Yup, seems accurate.

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>>43611651
(Doesn't even need to be art)
Follow up question: What are some other good urban fantasy series? I know it's a popular genre, but damn if most of them don't suck. It's all were-this and half-faerie that. Lots of shirtless dudes and women in tight leather.

Is there anything that even comes close to Dresden Files?

>>43611730

>is there anything that even comes close to Dresden Files?

That's a shockingly low bar to have. You're honestly better off reading regular S/FF titles for WoD influence, Urban Fantasy is too insular and I doubt you're the type that'd dig Magical Realism. If you want good Urban Fantasy, you'll want to watch TV shows.

>>43611730
>Other Urban Fantasy things
See:
>>43607553
>>43607661
American Horror Story is also a decent source of inspiration, in my opinion.
Season 1 is a house that doubles as a piece of infrastructure causing ghosts to be visible to and capable of acting like mortals within the yard of the house.
Season 2 is a Slasher that works as a psychologist for the government, and a demiurge trying to create his own lineage of Prometheans, but he keeps ending up with Pandorans, so he just throws them out. Also, aliens.
Season 3 is mages. Or Hunter Witches. Plain and simple.
Season 4 isn't WoD at all, really. Well, maybe a bit of God-Machine in there.And a Beast who kills any Freak that performs on Halloween.
Season 5 is Vampires and Ghosts with the same type of infrastructure as Season 1/maybe Geists living in a hotel together. Shenanigans ensue.

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>>43611778
>That's a shockingly low bar to have
I honestly don't understand this attitude. Dresden Files is one of the better series I've read in general. It's genre fiction that stands outside of it's genre. I can understand not liking it, there are plenty of reasons for that, but it's not exactly a "shockingly low bar to have".

That said, you're right, I don't particularly care much for most Magical Realism stuff, although that's a bit of a vague term, so you'd really have to give more examples.

Urban fantasy shows also tend to be a bit underwhelming for scratching my itch. It's not really until recently that shows have started having really detailed setting Bibles, and only shows that are long runners (like Buffy) have the feel I'm looking for that really reminds me of the depth of WoD. A lot of them--Lost Girl comes to mind--treat ALL magical things as being faeries, for instance.

>>43611896
>See:
That first one is me :V
I'm also the person who brought up Urban Shaman last thread as well.

I actually put together a list of WoD-esque TV shows that are currently on a thread or two ago, saying that the time is right for a WoD TV series, but I haven't seen half of them and also already lost the list.

>>43608873
Or get curious, if they're a mage.
Any of the other 3 outcomes are preferable to this.

>>43611932

Good lord, how many books have you actually read? DF's pulpy and fun but if it's seriously some of the best reading you've had in general, even if all you read is just genre, it's time to get a little more reading done.

Why not try Perdido Street Station, by China Mieville? It's got a deep setting and an urban feel. You might dig it.

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>>43612289
Alternately I have different priorities.
>pulpy and fun

I tend to avoid the kind of books that /lit/ drools over. I like Mistborn and I'm pretty sure they hate it. I know I don't like Tolkien, and that's some of the only Fantasy they like.

Although I will admit I haven't read nearly as much as I'd like to, or nearly as much as people would assume I have.

Dresden Files? Buffy and Fringe and Supernatural? That's all tumblr shit

But that's normal considering WoD is the second most SJW game after Eclipse Phase

>>43609357
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYmiwbO5icc

>>43612446
>Hurr
>hur hurr
This is your reply

>>43612289
Perdido Street Station is always a good recommendation.

Iron Council was one of the inspirations I listed for the Neolithic Dark Eras chapter, believe it or not (and no, no trains in the Neolithic).

>>43612372

It's a good idea to be well read if you want to write. Just saying. Best way of learning the craft after writing.

>>43612669

>no, no trains in the Neolithic

Why must you break my heart like this. We could have had the return of Angry Spirit Train from Werewolf: Wild West. It could have been great. It could have been great!

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>>43613398
>It's a good idea to be well read if you want to write.
Hence why I've spent the last week or two ̶s̶h̶i̶t̶p̶o̶s̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ reading.

>>43611730
Almost anything by Tanya Huff is good. Look for Blood Price or Summon the Keeper as the first books of two different series.

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>>43613657
Her books apparently became a cheesy Lifetime series.

>>43614132

Well, you know what they say: you haven't made it until your novel becomes a supernatural police procedural. I think Hemingway once said that.

>>43614132
I watched some of that. It wasn't as bad as I was expecting.

>>43607719
Guns have been super effective since always, against everything but 1e Vampires.

Now that 2e vampires downgrade stabbing implements to bashing just like guns, there is once again no reason not to use guns against vampires.

Unless they have Celerity.

>>43608365
There's some writeups floating around about these so called 'crossover games'/ To pick and choose amongst the points they present

Pros
-a setup where everyone can still feel 'unique' and play exactly what appeals to them
-a game where people aren't concerned about measuring up to each other can make for a very colourful and organic experience, like say, in warhammer 2e where you might have a ratcatcher in a party with a bretonnian knight

Cons
-there are mechanical imbalances that are fairly pronounced. And mages, while they have the weakest intrinsic healing/durability of most game line, have the potential to emulate almost any other power (though often won't roll as large dice pools...initially?). Saying this, an individual character may fit a niche better than a template does in general.
-template limitations can interfere with party cohesion. Vampires only go out at night, Prometheans cause everyone Disquiet(and usually have to keep moving around because of this), Hunters are supposed to kill other types (and they don't even have a powerstat). narratively, the organizations that players might be affiliated with will be wanting wildly different things.
-everyone might go for the same template except one guy, so you have a party of bro werewolves and one dork changeling
-the theme and feel of the different game lines is often quite disparate, the fundamental motivations of each type can differ in flexibility but one line might be about personal horror while another about facing death with gusto

Are vampires the only supernatural type who can voluntarily make more of themselves?

>>43615631
Promethians can make more Promethians, but no sane and decent Promethian ever would.

Changelings can totally raid Arcadia and save people, creating more Changelings or lesser Fae templates. Though you have to be an unqualified badass.

Makes can force awakenings (even without Archmastery), but it almost always creates one of the Mad or a Banisher.

>>43615682

>Promethians can make more Promethians, but no sane and decent Promethian ever would.

Well, save for the promise of successfully doing so can make you human. That's a pretty big deal.

>>43615682
>Makes can force awakenings
They can?

>>43616359
The "simplest" way is just to use Archmastery.

However Mages can also simply engineer circumstances through which people are more likely to Awaken. The Adamantine Arrow legacy The Awakening Gambit it all about it, creating situations where the subject is provided the choice of "Awaken or Die". They step in though should they be about (or likely to) die, though their track record is inconclusive (both in Awakenings, and saving).

You can try to force an Awakening however by continually bombarding someone with evidence of the Supernatural over and over and over again until they Awaken. Usually going Mad in the process.

It's completely against Lex Magicka.

>>43616359
The book's canon says are a lot of people who say they can engineer awakenings, but no concrete proof that their methods work any better than

However, mages DO know how to PREVENT a person from awakening: In order to awaken, a person must have a personal obsession with knowing some truth of the world, or with rebelling against the lie. This slowly builds up until bursting, at which point they awaken. Therefore, outright telling someone about magic without them personally experiencing it ruins it for them. It spoils the tension and makes it far, far, less likely that they will awaken. Therefore, sleepwalkers who work as assistants for mages are actually less likely to awaken.

>>43616705
>Therefore, sleepwalkers who work as assistants for mages are actually less likely to awaken.
Where's it say that?

>>43616359
>>43616446
Forcing an Awakening, even in the Archmastery book, is almost guaranteed to give you a Banisher. People need to come to it on their own.

Guardians are, ironically enough, the best at engineering safe circumstances that are designed to let people Awaken themselves.

>>43616741
I've never seen it in any books, but Dave has always stated that that's the case, and now that he's in charge of the gameline I imagine it's canon in 2e even if it wasn't in 1e.

What happens if you kill a Cthonian in the Underworld, does it get a ghost in the real world?

Hell, what happens if a Cthonian appears in the real world?

>>43612289
You know i was going to agree with you...
>Why not try Perdido Street Station, by China Mieville?
But then You had to derp.

>>43618543

I'm not saying Mieville's high lit or anything, but it's at least something with a bit more variety than a Jim Butcher book.

>>43615273
But that is no reason not to use them. Guns are still as effective as melee weapons, even against celerity vamps.

>>43619143

Does using a gun as a melee weapon count as an improvised attack? I figure you don't roll firearms for that, at least.

>>43619314
Yeah. That's a Strength + Weaponry attack, penalties for being improvised (provided it doesn't have a bayonet or something like that).

>>43614348
I want to read Hemingway's vampire detective novel.

So.... as somebody who's never played WoD, but has just read through the thread and is interested, where should I start? We looking at a simple read the books and lurk game finder threads or what?

>>43608691
I was interested in Demon when I first read about it. Now having read the book, like the God-Machine, my interest has somewhat waned. I suppose I was hoping for a more equivalent mix of occult and machine, rather than primarily the latter

>>43615682
What?
>>43616359
No. There are some Legacies that try, but that means nothing. Even when they succeed it's basically just ignoring their failures to go "see! We got one!"

>>43616705
>>43617231
I've heard that but never seen evidence of it being the case. Seems to me that being shown instead of told makes you less likely to Awaken, sure, and people who are always around Magic might not have that *spark* that gives them obsession, because it's routine to them, but that doesn't mean they don't also have more opportunities to start delving.

Hrm. Actually, that sounds like a good plot hook. Someone who's friends with a Mage and Sleepwalks and takes it all in stride that there's supernatural things everywhere, and who isn't expected to become a Mage starts obsessing about some*THING* until she finally snaps and Awakens.

>>43619583
Decide whether you want to play oWoD or nWoD, read the core, pick the splat you like, then continue as usual.

>>43608727
It's in Art Direction/Layout right now. It includes material from G-M Chronicle but is more freeform in background mythos and will have a greater depth and breadth of rules, like the first core book. Aside from that, nary a whisper

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>>43619143
What? A gun in melee would be terrible. You might as well use a rock. Unless you mean shooting in melee, which is just shooting with added Defense.

>>43619583
Have this. I made it for some friends who are just now starting to think about branching out from Magic: The Gathering.
You'll also want this list (any of the ones labeled "GMC" are compatible with the second edition rules I used there)
http://www.thesubnet.com/portal/wod2/wod2.0/CreationMeL.html

The site as a whole might be useful to you as well. Stuff labeled GMC is from 2e.
http://www.thesubnet.com/portal/wod2/wod2.0/SiteMap.html

>>43619621
I shall research both and make my decision!

>>43619657
Reading it now. So far seems like a valuable resource. Thank you.

>>43619753
I made it as a "fine, you won't read a rulebook, read 20 pages" thing for my friends.
They still haven't read it
Also they still have my 1e corebook

I should note that's more of a *quickstart* than anything else. It doesn't have any real rules, just how to make a character and play the game. It also doesn't have things like the Social Maneuvering system.

>>43619657
>What? A gun in melee would be terrible. You might as well use a rock. Unless you mean shooting in melee, which is just shooting with added Defense.

Yeah. So in melee it has all the same drawbacks as a regular melee weapon. Except that if you aren't locked in close combat, you can shoot shit at range.

>>43619788
Judging from the other comments, I'd thought people were talking about hitting people with guns for some reason >>43619314 >>43619433

>>43615682
Addendums, from different guy.

Almost any nWod splat can tilt the scales a little.

Werewolves breed Wolf-Blooded with the intent of garnering lineages of werewolves. It's not guaranteed by any measure or even the only catalyst of the Change, but it helps longterm.

Sin-eaters see the phenomena of death everywhere, even among the living. Setting things up such that a mortal dies and accepts the bargain would take potentially years of manipulation and a lot of resources, but isn't impossible.

Demons can (and often do, depending on Agency or Ring practices) deliberately disrupt Infrastructure Angels encompass, enact or use. Again, no guarantee, but enough or the right exposure to non-mission influences can make one Fall.

All the Mummies that ever existed have already been made, so they aren't strictly able to do this. One could argue that those who became Arisen held each other in the guilds via community/coercion until they underwent the Rite of Return, but that's a stretch of technicality at best.

If Hunters count, it is relatively easy for them to bring new members to the Vigil. It could involve legacy, coercion, a Stockholm-esque strong-arming into service, cult/culture indoctrination, alternative lifestyles - as many reasons to fall in as their exist groups, means and dangers.

I know little of some upcoming splats and their methods. Perhaps Beasts can provoke the Becoming in mortals, given enough fear or particular enrapturing in the Beast's Legend/Lair/Hungers - I will need another to explain, I'm afraid. And I only know as much of Deviant as everyone else does (i.e. inspirational sources and similar works alongside minimal setup info and little else), but it wouldn't be hard to imagine Deviants having similar interactions to Prometheans/Changelings, perhaps even setting mortals up for this transformation - maybe even as the stated purpose of some "dark reflection" antagonist Deviant faction.

So, that's it I guess

>>43615631
Werewolves can, but it's more tricky and well, it's still making babies, whereas a newborn vampire is immediately capable.
Plus, with werewolves, it involves percentage and good eugenics...

What about the lesser splats? Which are the best breeders?

>>43619984
Proximi.
Every child of a Proximus is also a Proximus.
Also apparently in 2e they're getting powers.
Which is nifty.

>>43619890
I vaguely recall something about how one Beast can provoke another's Devouring. The way I understood it was basically that they're Wolfblooded that you have to Embrace.

>>43620075
Proximi had powers in 1e. They're in the Silver Ladder book, there are two Dynasties given, and a third in the Seers book.
But a Dynastic Proximus isn't the same as a Proximus with powers. Not all of them have that.

I don't even think it's "EVERY child of a Proximus". Otherwise a patient enough Mage could just brute force everything and flood the world with Proximi by having them fuck like rabbits with every non-Proximus they can get their hands on.

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>>43620126
>Otherwise a patient enough Mage could just brute force everything and flood the world with Proximi by having them fuck like rabbits with every non-Proximus they can get their hands on.

>>43620138
I meant more of that weird subgenre of kekolding porn where all the white men are magically docile crossdressers and help the white race get bred out of existence by offering the women in their families up to BBC.

>>43612446
>Eclipse Phase
The setup for the Jovian Republic in Firewall is good stuff: the Security Council Intelligence; Jovian Space Force Intelligence; CBEAT Office of Investigations; Civil Defense Corps Bureau of Investigation; and Senate Accounting Office. Best faction for top spoops.

>>43620126
Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about their ability to use not-rotes...

>>43612446
Serious question here: Why does people seem to have problems with shit being inclusive?
(Also. Dresden Files being tumblr shit? The main character is a self-professed chauvinist, there is a total of one non-white character among the important cast, and only western mythology matters in the setting.)

>>43615529
>you have a party of bro werewolves and one—
Faggot; and one faggot you were about to say. Because that's the only reason a guy would be hanging around with a biker gang of big burly Uratha. Either that or it's someone playing as an anthropologist, better known as a gawking pervert—watching half naked wolfmen performing mystic but otherwise entirely non-lurid rites around a blazing bonfire. Cultural enrichment with flagrant homoerotic undertones. Disgusting.

>>43618123
Check Summoners.

>>43620408
Well, it's true that Sanya is the only real black guy, but there's a lot of strong women, and Butters is a Jew. Plus Shiro has been pretty important even after his death. I wouldn't say ONLY Western mythology matters, but it IS doing that thing that all Urban Fantasy plots do where there are angels and demons, and they're the most important thing even if there are pagan gods. In world the justification is usually "Christianity/Judaism/Islam is most popular" but I think the real reason is because it's got a relatively simple good/evil thing going on and it's familiar to readers.

Dresden's a self-professed chauvinist, sure, but in a way that he understands it's unfounded, and mostly does things like hold the door for Murph because it annoys her, and he was taught to hold the door for ladies. He basically treats women with equality but also thinks they should be respected. Sexist, sure, but he's not a misogynist. There's also at least one scene where he explains to his dog--it makes sense in context, and the dog is probably smarter than Dresden--that people who look down on gays and buy into his story that he's his brother's flirty boyfriend do so because they believe stereotypes already.

There are actually a lot of people who say that Butcher is sexist--in the same way that best intentions aside, Joss Whedon is sexist--and I can completely see their point and agree with them. And I can also see why people would say that he's SJW (because saying "nothing wrong with gays" is SJW in a lot of people's minds).

>>43620447
>Faggot; and one faggot you were about to say.
But anon, he already said >>43615529
>one dork changeling
There's no need to be redundant.

>an anthropologist, better known as a gawking pervert
Gawking Pervert best major.

>>43620408
>Why does people seem to have problems with shit being inclusive?

Define "inclusive?" Most people don't care about the politics of OPP or its authors, could care less if minorities are included as NPC's, etc.

The problem starts when certain books start to read like political treatises, and begin to insult those who may not share these political and other views. That's not "inclusive," it's self-righteous drivel. For instance, just read the gender sidebar in Mortal Remains.

As for Dresden Files, Jim Butcher is openly quite liberal and it's sometimes reflected in his books and characters, but I agree with you to the extent that he's not particularly preachy and its rarely an issue for most readers. As I do not frequent tumbr, I cannot say why they are fascinated with DF.

I would note, however, your observation that Harry might be chauvinistic and other less than PC matters does not mean the book does not have a decidedly leftward political tilt. Rather, what should be focused on is both the author's explicit and implicit criticism of such actions and beliefs.

>>43620408
>Well, it's true that Sanya is the only real black guy
Also Rawlins, but Sanya shows up a lot more.

>>43620522
>Most people don't care about the politics of OPP or its authors
I feel that's not really true, judging from a lot of the posts.

Very few of the books read "like political treatises"--no, not even Beast--and the sidebar in Mortal Remains is heavy handed, yes, but considering the way people feel about such things? Yeah, still kind of necessary to say.

You can be inclusive and self-righteous.

>>43620519

Butcher also includes pagan and non-western beliefs and figures in his works, such as Odin, Hades, the Furies, Jade Court Vampires, etc.

However, I would surmise than the prevalence of western and monotheistic themes and characters is due primarily to the personal knowledge and experience of the author, and because it resonates most with the target audience of his books.

>>43620544
>Implying Jade Court are actually in the book
Man, I want to see an actual Jiangshi in Dresden Files.

And yeah, like I said. There are Foo Dogs, but angels and demons are more familiar to American readers, which is why Supernatural and every other Urban Fantasy series eventually does the whole "Angels and Demons, but Angels are also assholes" thing.

>>43620536

Beast was (and is still) a goddamn mess, particularly before some of the rewrites. It read like a left-wing tween power revenge fantasy, and matters like the Gamergate Heroes were so obvious as to even be offensive to those who shared Matt's political beliefs.

I believe a problem is that some people are so ideological, self-absorbed, and often exist in a bubble around others who share their views, particularly on college campuses where RPG's are popular, that they don't acknowledge that many people don't agree with them, or worse, their views might be in the minority, and simply dismiss those they believe are not sufficiently "inclusive" or "socially just" as worthy of derision and hostility. The hypocrisy is too obvious to ignore.

In any event, the "inclusive" "problem" is sometimes far more a matter of tone and style in many books, rather than the actual inclusion of certain characters and ideas. Few care if an NPC is gay, black, or anything else, but many readers do not feel the need to be reminded of it constantly, no less sidebars highlighting how normal these characters are compared to others. Not only is it generally immaterial to the game itself, ironically, if they were as "normal" and familiar as the authors portray, we wouldn't need so much needling.

>>43620544
>Butcher also includes pagan and non-western beliefs and figures in his works, such as Odin, Hades, the Furies, Jade Court Vampires, etc.

Norse and Greek myth are about as western as it can be. The fact that they are pagan doesn't really matter, since all urban fantasy shit brings in pagan stuff. In the Dresden Files it's also "they all work for God, seriously". So even less pagan there.

>>43620536
>Also Rawlins, but Sanya shows up a lot more.
Yeah, but he is a supporting character who only shows up to do stereotypical cop and/or black guy things.

>>43620519
Strong women? All I can see are sexy power fantasies. With just a few exceptions, all "strong" women are just stereotypical dominatrixes with various degrees of subtlety.
Murphy is the only "strong" female with some characterization. And that's because she's based on a real person, not just sex-fantasies.

>>43620651
>And that's because she's based on a real person, not just sex-fantasies.
She's my sex fantasy.

>>43620663
The fact that she is sexy is irrelevant. She has depth, and that's more than can be said for any of the other women in the series (except possibly Molly, by the virtue of amount of screen time.)

>>43620651
>"they all work for God, seriously"
Tell that to the Muslim who holds back the beings from beyond the outer gates.
Or the ludicrously powerful native american shapeshifter mage.

>>43620676
What exactly are you defining as depth here?
Murphy's actually pretty cut and dry.

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>>43620613
I feel like this--like, the post itself and the people who believe things like it--is blown way out of proportion. Beast was bad, but it's not exactly the RPG equivalent of Sword of Truth. Beasts were self-righteous and full of themselves, but Heroes were never "armed only with their hatred of moral clarity".

Also, I strongly disagree with this:
>In any event, the "inclusive" "problem" is sometimes far more a matter of tone and style in many books, rather than the actual inclusion of certain characters and ideas. Few care if an NPC is gay, black, or anything else
This is VERY untrue. People were shitting the bed from day one about VtR, which had no sidebars and treated the characters as being completely annoying. You had people frothing at the mouth that every vampire was gay because the Touchstone example (pic related) was about gays (except it never explicitly points that out and it's up to the reader to note that there's something uncommon about a Trevor and Eric having a romantic relationship), and because of the art that depicted two men in the shower with one on his knees.

Ironically I've heard no one even mention the literal "no homo" brojob Touchstone where you get together with your Touchstone, watch football, and suck each other off in a totally manly way.

>>43620651
I don't think Rawlins ever goes "Sheeeeit, missuh Dresden" or "daaayum". Although he does do "steroetypical cop" things. At least, about as much as Carmichael did.

Also, while the villains ARE all sex fantasies, characters like Murphy, Charity, Molly, Susan, Georgia, Luccio, Justine, Gard, and a lot of the other side characters are all competent.

>>43620695
>Also, while the villains ARE all sex fantasies, characters like Murphy, Charity, Molly, Susan, Georgia, Luccio, Justine, Gard, and a lot of the other side characters are all competent.

Yeah. They are competent. But Molly, Susan, Luccio and Justine are mostly there for sex appeal. Gard too, if you are into muscle women. Charity, on the other hand is the perfect housewife - another annoying stereotype.

>>43620687
>Tell that to the Muslim who holds back the beings from beyond the outer gates.

Since the angels don't have any problem with Butters being Jewish, I kinda assume all the abrahamitic faiths have the same god, just the humans who are being stupid again. (God is perfect, after all).

>Or the ludicrously powerful native american shapeshifter mage.

I'm sorry. Did you bring up the "I talk to the animals, and the spirits" Indian-stereotype-wizard as an example to why Dresden Files ISN'T racist?

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>>43620651
>In the Dresden Files it's also "they all work for God, seriously". So even less pagan there.
No they don't. They just all happen to be working together because the behind the scenes implication is that the end of the world is coming, and no matter what Pantheon you're from shit is gonna get real.

Plus there seems to be some kind of Mantling shit at work, like in Elder Scrolls.

>>43620663
Good taste, anon.

Although War Cry reminds me that I love Thomas, even if his role in that book was basically to say "My baby brother is the best".

>>43620687
She still has depth. If anything one of the main themes of the Dresden Files--the skill of which theme theme is handled being up to you--is that everything is more complicated than it appears to be. Mab is evil and dark and spooky. She also keeps Outsiders from eating reality. The Red Court is bad and evil. Killing it means everything went to shit as the balance of power was broken. Organized crime is evil. Marcone is one of the reasons Chicago still exists after Changes. Hell, one of the ways the Soulgaze--a relatively pointless thing, all things considered--has been used is specifically to show us how many of the characters were doing things that they think is right, or else fell off the path.

I've been delving into reading about Detective and mystery fiction, and this is actually one of the big themes of Noir, and possibly why Dresden Files is so successful. Set apart from the stodgy "British people in one place where someone broke social conduct by ruining a dinner part with ~murder~" style of detective fiction, the Hard-Boiled fiction is distinctly American and puts the detective as an outsider in a world of corruption. No one is truly evil, but the Detective is Good because their moral code is stricter and more unwavering than that of the common man, and as such he falls to evil less than others might.

>>43620651

Strong, competent women are not mutually exclusive with physically attractive women, including the leaders of both Faerie Courts, Charity Carpenter, Murphy, etc.

An author need not make a woman unattractive in order to make them credible. It's the 21st Century, women can have it all...

Remember, just like movies and TV, books are an escapist fantasy, and readers of both sexes often tend to like attractive characters, particularly the heroes.

I would also imagine that the readership of DF is disproportionately young and male. It's simply good economics that target obvious demographics that may dictate the inclusion of sexy female characters. It's not like there aren't an -ample- number of young adult urban fantasy series and books targeted specifically at young women and girls (many of which become movies).

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>>43620728
>Indian-stereotype-wizard as an example to why Dresden Files ISN'T racist
I was more bringing up the point that he includes cultural considerations which aren't the "white" examples of the ancient Greeks and Norse.

But since you're so happy to bitch about someone representing a Magician in coherence with some of their traditional magical practices (which, BTW, is an important part of their Magic), yes, I am happy to say that that isn't racist.

Oh wait yes, I forgot. The writer is white.
How dare he write a character who is an ethnicity he isn't.
It's obvious he should have devoted chapter after chapter to this character, to flesh him out thoroughly, so it was patently clear he's not a racist caricature, and instead connects with his traditional culture.

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>>43620728
Molly, Susan, Luccio, and Justine aren't there for sex appeal, they're characters who happen to be sexy. Charity choosing to be a housewife is also not something that *should* be criticized, and she's also the only one who chose to be that. Even then, most perfect housewives don't forge chainmail and wield hammers.
"My faith protects me. The kevlar helps." Who do you think is sewing that kevlar?
>Gard too, if you are into muscle women.
Are you implying you aren't? Also, Charity is muscular as well, she just comes off as a stocky matron.

>Since the angels don't have any problem with Butters being Jewish, I kinda assume all the abrahamitic faiths have the same god, just the humans who are being stupid again. (God is perfect, after all).
Butters is Jewish. Sanya is an atheist. Agnostic, if you push him. He's literally had demons inside of him and was given his sword by a literal Angel of God and he still has faith without being one of the faithful.

I'll give you that "Injun Joe" is a bit racist, but the book brings that fact up several times--it's a playful name given to him by a stodgy friend. Likewise, I'm not saying Injun Joe is a perfectly culturally sensitive version of a Native American shaman, but even then Butcher seems to at least do *some* research, and Injun Joe isn't all "that white man magic".

>>43620751
To be fair, almost no woman in the Dresden Files is described as being unattractive. Then again, most males aren't, either. Quite a bit is spent on how attractive Thomas--a canon pansexual emotional vampire--is.

Although I like the fan theory that Dresden sees all women as attractive because he never gets laid. I've heard some people say that while he was dating Luccio the description of women was less needy.

>>43620728
>Charity, on the other hand is the perfect housewife

Wow. If you believe that's all Charity represents, either you've never really read all the DF, or you're a little slow.

Charity's character is one of the more complex in DF, and all her layers are the reason why Harry respects and fears her. She's both conservatively religious and feminist. She chooses to prioritize her family. She's also a smart, badass combatant and armorer, who's more than capable of taking care of herself.

Charity is most certainly anything but a "lady who brunches" housewife.

People have also failed to mention Ancient Mai, another member of the White Council's leadership who is scary powerful and definitely not western.

>>43620775
No. He's not a caricature, but being a native american is all that there is to the character.
There is nothing about him that isn't oh-so-ethnic.

>>43620810
>There is nothing about him that isn't oh-so-ethnic.
While I don't live in America, I know like 4 people who are that, but Aboriginal.

>>43620809
You could also bring up the fact that Charity, in many ways, fails at the housewife part, in favour of her other qualities. She loves her kids, yes, but she's almost a tyrant to them, which is why Molly snapped so far in the anti-authority direction.

You could also mention Martha Liberty: A freed slave who is the matriarch of her extended family. And the head of intelligence of the White Council.

>>43620613
I like this post. This is a good post.

>>43620775
Keeeeeek.

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>>43620775
Actually, if you think about it, a lot of the stuff in Dresden Files is non-Western, or at least not traditionally Western.

The Red Court is Mayan.
The White Court is Etruscan.
Injun Joe is native American. So is the Naagloshi.
The Gatekeeper is Muslim, or at least Arab.
Sanya is Russian and Agnostic (and so is Dresden).
I'm forgetting a ton of things. I haven't read (well, listened; the audiobooks are amazing) to the series in a while, though I did just finish the comics.

>>43620809
>She's both conservatively religious and feminist.
I wouldn't really even say she's conservative. I feel like the Carpenter family's approach to social issues like gay marriage would be a legitimate "it's not my place to judge" with none of the implications or connotations that statement usually carries.

>Ancient Mai
She's in like two of the books and replaces The Merlin in the TV show because having a creepy Asian girl was more interesting than an old man who looks like Gandalf. (Actually I always assume he looks like a more serious version of the Judge from Phoenix Wright.)

>>43620827
>The Gatekeeper is Muslim, or at least Arab.
Egyptian, I'm pretty certain.

>>43620821

And neither Ancient Mai nor Martha Liberty even remotely fall into the sexy female trope.

>>43620834
Hell nawh. From what little we've seen of Martha Liberty, I can't help but picture her as a black Nanny Ogg, though.

>>43620834
I don't think anyone would call the most powerful women in the setting - the Mothers - sexy either. And they seem to be Life and Death, respectively.

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>>43620834
Old ladies need love too, Anon.

>>43620839
I imagine Ancient Mai as one of those old Asian women where you know they're like 50 but they don't *look* 50.

>>43620846
Mother Winter is some scary shit.

Also, I posted it already, but there's a Naga (and a Jinn) in Ghoul Goblin, though neither really add anything to the plot, which may be the weakest plot of any Dresden Files thing. Including that time he worked for Big Foot.

>>43620851
>I imagine Ancient Mai as one of those old Asian women where you know they're like 50 but they don't *look* 50.

I think she's closer to one of the truly wizened ones, myself. Which makes her even scarier. Tiny, dangerous, and smart.

There's no doubt that Jim Butcher is a raging bigot and totally not inclusive.

There's not a single transgendered, sexually-fluid, queer, racial and ethnic minority, differently-abled, autist, vocal critical theory proponent, from a developing country character, in any of his books.

Why has Mr. Butcher not been detained and serving time in social justice jail?

>>43620884
Not all of them in the same character, no, but if you look at it, all those qualities are in various characters there.

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>>43620884
Go home, /pol/

>>43620910
Go home /lit/.

And on that note, are we done fellating books, and able to go back to what this thread is all about?

Does anyone have any nice ideas for Mage cabals out there? I've been thinking of an Adamantine Arrow Cabal who works as social aid/addiction counselling. Just to be nice people. I'd like to shock my players with mages who aren't egoistical assholes.

>>43612059
...now imagine if they're a Seer.

>>43609263
>I thought that you could only directly use d20 because Wizards of the Coast released 3.5 under OGL.
Nope. You cannot copyright game mechanics.

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>>43620728
>I'm sorry. Did you bring up the "I talk to the animals, and the spirits" Indian-stereotype-wizard as an example to why Dresden Files ISN'T racist?
You do know that Joseph Listens-to-Wind has multiple modern medical degrees, right?

He's not a walking cliche any more than any of the other wizards who happen to be strongly tied to their ethnic background or magical traditions.

>>43620957
>Go home /lit/.
Are you crazy? /lit/ fucking hates genre fiction. Genre fiction is purely /tg/.

>Cabals
I once had plans for a game that was inspired by Saints Row, where the Orders were lessened and the whole city was divided up by larger-than-average cabals that were basically gangs. Each of them had a theme, since cabals tend to have strong thematic elements. I really only remember the Cabal they were part of, though. They were the Cartographers, and it was their schtick to map things out.

Also, I could see Mages being social aid, although I don't know if Arrows would be the most likely choice for that. But then again Struggle is Magic and what better struggle than overcoming your own personal demons or pulling yourself up by the bootstraps?

I once had a player who had a raging ladyboner for the Silver Ladder, so I threw a bunch of non-standard Thearchs at her, primarily a guy and is boyfriend who ceded political power and the role of BOSS to the Adamantine Arrow candidate and instead chose a position that allowed them to raise up the bottom instead of trying to LEAD.
Her first concern was the fact that they should be overthrowing the Consilium for not having a Thearch on the Heirarch or Councilor seats, as per Silver Ladder doctrine.

They told her--in the nicest possible terms--that that's stupid.

>>43620957
>mages who aren't egoistical assholes
>Adamantine Arrow Cabal who work at social aid/addiction counselling

Well, that certainly would be working against trope and rare in the setting.

However, drive and ambition are generally what makes mages who they are.

Why would this AA cabal be social aid or addiction counselors? Has there been a Abysmally or spiritually-tainted drug on the streets, are Seers or left-handed mages dealing in their territory, are they exploring ways to advance their expertise in Mind, etc.?

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>>43620983
I've still never seen anyone try to use the mechanics of one game in another.

>>43621007
>Why would this AA cabal be social aid or addiction counselors?
Reminds me of the Lodge of Garm. Get of Fenris who try to fuck over Pentex through economics and corporate takeovers.

>>43621006

The WOD gang parallel is definitely W:tF 2e, as has been repeatedly discussed by Dave and Chris.

Mages represent the petty infighting of college liberal arts faculty.

>>43621037
>I've still never seen anyone try to use the mechanics of one game in another.
d10/d6 dicepool and R&K are fairly widely spread, actually. But whatever.

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>>43621041
Yeah... but I like Mage more. This was also before Werewolf 2e.
Game never really happened, though. One of the players tried my patience and then the player I had trusted not to fuck things up kind of fucked things up. They fought an Aswang in the middle of the suburbs, pissed off the vampires they were doing favours for, and just generally made it so that I had no idea what to do with the game.

>>43621048
I've seen games use similar mechanics, with similar rolls, but I've never seen anything as close as the d20 stuff. Like, something that uses nWoD core mechanics without ever mentioning World of Darkness. I've never seen anything THAT close other than d20.

>>43621007
That's their way of interpreting the "service is mastery".
They certainly have the drive and ambition, they just focus it on helping people - they are just at their core nice people.
And they rationalise it for the others that they use it as an excellent opportunity to practice both life and mind magic. But they also do it for the pleasure of helping people find strength in themselves and fight through adversity.

>>43621096

I'm also not entirely sure what part of 'Stereotypical housewife' is 'Blacksmith with a warhammer/battle axe' (I can't remember which of the two she favors)

She's the one who smiths Micheal's armour. He does the kevlar himself.

>>43620728
>Charity, on the other hand is the perfect housewife - another annoying stereotype.

So one female character in the whole series is a stereotypical housewife, and that's a problem? What, are you implying that it's not ok to like stereotypical things?

>>43621080

I certainly see the "drive," but where's the "ambition?"

How are they advancing? What supernatural Mysteries are they exploring and solving?

My understand is also that "service" is usually more about serving the Awakened Nation, rather than mundane sleeper volunteer and charitable work.

I think you need more of a supernatural or magic hook.

>>43621108
Neither. She chose a sledgehammer. Or a nailgun, if that's what does the trick.

>>43621122
That guy is talking out of his ass. Charity is in no way stereotypical. She has TRAPPINGS of a housewife, yes, but that's all.

>>43621126
A willingness to do good, simply. The fact that this puts them into conflict with all those who prey on the destitute is a (positive) side effect, but that's not why they do it.

>>43609263
>Kindred: The Embraced
Speaking of Kindred: The Embraced, is it any good?

The main complaints I heard about it was that the pilot sucked and it was >not muh RPG essentially.

>>43621128

>Neither. She chose a sledgehammer. Or a nailgun, if that's what does the trick.

Dragged out my copy of Skin Game, found where my mind had dragged up Warhammer/Battleaxe from. She's asked if she knows how to use a gun and she says she does but she prefers hammers and axes.

But yeah, guy is talking out of his ass.

>>43621071
>I've seen games use similar mechanics, with similar rolls, but I've never seen anything as close as the d20 stuff. Like, something that uses nWoD core mechanics without ever mentioning World of Darkness. I've never seen anything THAT close other than d20.
WELL I GUESS THAT IS A THING THEN.

>>43621148

Again, a simple willingness to do good is not really "ambition," particularly in the world of mages.

More importantly, Mage is about obsession and solving Mysteries, growing your Gnosis and improving your Arcana. How does that apply to this cabal. That's why I earlier suggested some supernatural hooks to their work.

>>43621007

>>43621154
Main complaint I heard was
>Vampires
>BAAAAALD
I'm pretty sure I watched the first episode or two on Youtube, but I can't remember it at all. But other Anons have said the show was good and only got canceled because the main actor died.

>>43621177
I'm not saying you'll get sued for having the same mechanics. I'm just saying I haven't seen anyone do it, and I'd rather not be the first to see if I can get away with it. Although I do suspect that if I straight up copied the nWoD core mechanics (to the point that the character sheets would look the same) I'd probably get sued, even though "Strength" and "Stamina" and "Composure" and "Streetwise" and "Athletics" and "Merits" are vague terms...
Or, again, I just wouldn't want to be the first to try.

>>43621184
...Am I misunderstanding you now. Ambition = personal goals, right?

>>43621154

I though K:tE was very cheesy, however some enjoyed it.

You can watch the episodes for free here:

http://thewatchseries.to/serie/kindred%3A_the_embraced

>>43621203

No, because then "ambition" is little more than a synonym for "drive."

These are mages! Ambition is the acquisition of ever more supernal power and knowledge, solving increasingly greater mysteries.

>>43621197
>Or, again, I just wouldn't want to be the first to try.
Of course.

>>43621268
Hey, let someone else see if the pool of acid is "lemon juice" acid or "melt everything" acid. Not that I'd be in a position to find out anyway.

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So I remembered Dudes of Legend is a thing that exists and I'm wondering how I might use it in a semi-serious way.

I think it would be great if some relatively serious characters ended up stuck in a parody of modern TV shows and had to play along with the wacky rules, like taking off their shirt for extra armour or incredibly sharp katanas, things like that.

>>43621661

I believe there was more than one episode of Supernatural that had the guys in an alternate television reality or something similar that accomplished precisely what you suggest.

However Dudes of Legend and "use in a semi-serious way" is not something that's usually in the same sentence.

>>43621675
They've had a few that were inspired by movies, but I mean specifically this episode:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZcQpXk4pDs

>>43621661
It could also be neat for a journey into the Astral.

>>43620447
>Thinking all Uratha are male
wew lad

More seriously, cultural anthropologist pretry much is slang for gawking pervert. Only the erotic undertones in their half-naked rituals are one of repressed sexual tension since Uratha can't fuck without consequences.

Has anyone seen the UK televisions series "Ultraviolet?"

Although it's back from 1998, it's a really good inspiration for both modern vampires and a secret government Hunter organization, all without the cheesy romance themes that plague the genre.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0169501/

http://www.hulu.com/ultraviolet

http://www.veoh.com/list/c/ultravioletserie

>>43620651
That's because a strong man (especially a male villain) is domineering. When you simply transfer it to a woman, that same domineering nature becomes sexualized for some reason.

>>43615682
>but no sane and decent Promethian ever would.
Every sane and decent Promethean does, because achieving the burning, unignorable purpose of their existence requires doing so. The only ones who don't are Centimani, who actively reject said purpose.

>>43620138
>Flood the world with Proximi via selective breeding
There's an Archmaster in Imperial Mysteries doing exactly this. He wants to flat-out replace humanity with his own artificially-selected version that's got no Abyss in their souls.

>>43620851
>I imagine Ancient Mai as one of those old Asian women where you know they're like 50 but they don't *look* 50.
Her title is "Ancient". She's probably pretty wizened.

>>43622205
She's also a magical wizard.

She was an AZN qt in shitty make up in the TV series.

>>43622268
And if you're old enough that wizards are calling you "Ancient", you're probably pretty wizened.

>>43622280
Yeah. And if what Butcher said is true, then the Gatekeeper has been around since the middle ages. And he isn't called Ancient. Just pointing that out.

>>43614132
The books are a lot better. The romance is turned way down, and Henry leans more towards Ventrue than Toreador pretty-boy.

>>43615273
>not going for headshots when fighting vampires
Fuck, man, you went full pleb. Enjoy getting eaten when you go hunting

>>43622280
>>43622305
>She is over 400 years old,[1] with granite colored hair, "rheumy" eyes and is said to be very creepy and scary.

>She has "precious little gift when it comes to actual combat magic"[2].

>Ancient Mai is Chinese and, as Harry describes her, she looks a delicate and frail as an eggshell teacup. She has long white hair with jade combs holding it up. She still has a haunting, ethereal beauty, though old even by Council norms. Her eyes are dark, piercing and merciless.

>Harry finds her a very scary person.[3][4]

Honestly she doesn't actually seem to be all that hot shit. I mean, she's a powerful wizard, yes, but most of her power comes from politics. She's really only had two meaningful parts in the series, one was as emissary to the Faerie Courts in Summer Knight, and the other was wanting Dresden arrested for harbouring a fugitive in Turn Coat.

It's the TV series where she's a super scary person who can do everything and crush you like a bug.

>>43622429
inb4 someone claims headshots do nothing and don't matter

>>43622457
I always ruled a bullet to the brainpan got 9/8-again and was one of the few ways of dealing lethal damage to vampires at range.
1e nWoD for life

>>43622429
Headshots don't do anything and don't matter (although at least in 2e they cause tilts).

I see you, >>43622457

>>43622504
Only if you're enough of a faggot to not look over Armory Reloaded.
(although if you're using the version of headshots in that book for anything that's not 100% mortals, you're a moron)

>>43622504
>What is the chunky salsa rule?

>>43620695
You're full of it man. Beast was legitmately bad to the point the authors, who are famous for telling the fans to fuck off, stepped back and went whoops.

Beast was SJW Tumbr parody that /pol/ jerks off to and pretending it wasn't the left wing version of the Sword of Truth is pointless.

>>43620826
This is the best post in this thread.

>>43621774

Ultraviolet was a pretty good UK show, and I liked its more scientific take on vampirism and hunting.

It's a shame there was only one series.

>Branford and Aspel fighting
>intense Dresden Files arguments
>Beast, again

Holy cats. You folks just wanna talk about Changeling for a bit? Anyone play up more of the dreaming aspect of Lost? How'd that work put for you?

>>43620972
well cock.

Has anyone ever converted Dreden Files characters to nWOD?

>>43611932
>Dresden Files is one of the better series I've read in general.

Wow, can you adopt a trip? I'd like to filter your opinions.

>>43623151

DF is a definitely a fun read. Everything need not be Nobel Prize worthy literature to be thoroughly enjoyed.

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>>43620695
Nothing wrong with brojobs.

If anything, that one story some anons interpret as /ss/ would've been better if it was between a girl and a woman.

Guys, I think I just figured out changeling the dreaming. What it's actually about. It's about fandoms.

Hear me out - When you're young fandoms are exciting and fresh, but as you get older more and more people leave the fandom to pursue a "normal" life. other people are consumed by it. And the few "old" people (30+) are surrounded by young people who are into entirely new stuff that they aren't familiar with.

By that standard, Changeling might be the most personally depressing game in the entire OWoD.

I don't get any of that from Beast, though.

>>43623168
It is not "definitely" a fun read.

You might find it as one, but since it lacks any characters I don't despise and doesn't have a single good idea in it, it's about as enjoyable reading 50 shades when you're not a loveless woman.

Not being fourteen gives you a different perspective of Dresden. You'll understand in time.

>>43623278
>Not being fourteen gives you a different perspective of Dresden. You'll understand in time.
I'm 19 and I enjoy them, but you're entitled to your own opinion of the books.

That's my two cents.

>>43623169
>Fantasies about romancing someone of the same sex/gender doesn't mean you're gay.

What fucking criteria are we supposed to use, then?

>>43623352
You tell me, you prancing lala homo man.

>>43623278

I'm a LOT older than 14, a very highly educated and well-read professional, and still find the Dresden Files to be nice, light and fun urban fantasy reading. It's not classic literature, and doesn't need to be. It's no different than many RPG's.

I'm sorry if the DF is not to your liking, but that's not the case for millions of others. There's a reason why the books are reliably New York Times' Best Sellers.

Your hyperbole is also unhelpful. Since you claim to not like a single character in the series, nor believe it has a single good idea, would you kindly indicate what urban fantasy books meet your purportedly high and exacting standards?

>>43615631
>>43615682
>>43615831
>>43622126
Prometheans being alive is at least questionable, but they started off as corpses or were otherwise not human.
Vampires WERE definitely human, but either die as part of the Embrace, or were Embraced some time after they died.
Isn't it strange that THESE two are the only ones that have a direct or easy way to reproduce?
I'm not complaining, I just find it odd.

>>43623352
>>Fantasies about romancing someone of the same sex/gender doesn't mean you're gay.

I guess you could also be bisexual...

>>43623370
I don't even know anymore! Thanks to /d/, I can't think about anything but cock, and I've had wet dreams of masturbating as a female, and /pol/ called be "degenerate" once. If I'm not a raging faggot, what am I?

I don't know, I'm just so confused. How do I know I'm even a perverted accident of society at all? Maybe... Maybe I'm really straight?

Maybe jerking off to sapient tentacled fighter planes romancing their pilots will make me feel better.

>>43623169
What about parts 2 and 3?
Your possibly-fake WikiHow image has piqued my curiosity.

>>43623437
Nah, Bi is just gay+. Or maybe straight+?

>>43623479
There is a wikiHow article about things that don't mean you're gay though.
They use different images, so I assume the one I posted was from a different version.

>>43623413
If you're both highly educated and a well-read professional then why can't you construct a sentence?

>>43623528

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Take a look at your own posts.

In any event, I still want that list of modern urban fantasy literature that allegedly unquestionably surpasses Dresden Files in content, style and writing technique.

>>43623567

Why not just read some regular horror and fantasy for a while? Urban Fantasy's just so full of mediocrity that wading through that pool hardly seems worth it.

>>43623177

And at any time the spell can be broken by people who just don't get it, and in the case of the Dauntain, become anti-fans.

Holy hell I think you're on to something.

>>43607245

There's no gamefinder but I'm running a nWoD game and I could use one more player!

>GM/player
GM
>System
nWoD Medley (that means all templates are fair game, with a couple of restrictions)
>Time
6 EST on Thursday
>Method
Skype + Roll20
>Contact
underthecounter1 on skype
>Additional notes

In this game, players are the sheriff's department in a rural mountain county, in western NC. Each member of the department's senior deputy staff is a supernatural, though currently we have 20 junior deputies that are just fetches/wolf-blooded/sleepwalkers due to the Staff merit.
Our players:
Sin-Eater sheriff gunslinger possessed by a geist of police brutality
Were-moose lumberjack turned beat cop
Crooked illusionist vampire gypsy
Lynx skin-changer spiritualist
Sometimes joined by a psychic FBI agent (rarely)

>no demons
>no immortals
>no prometheans
>no more sin-eaters (one is enough)

I'd recommend playing a
>mage
or
>werewolf

Changeling is good too, and I'm open to a pitch for a hunter, or maybe a vampire.

To describe the game - take Buffy/Supernatural and the usual nWoD influences and then mix that in with the Lethal Weapon series, True Detective, and maybe a pinch of Big Trouble in Little China(?).

Please contact me if you're interested.

>>43623413
>I'm a LOT older than 14

Sixteen isn't a lot older. You'll understand once you graduate highschool.

And, no, the reason they hit the best sellers list is because of the heavy marketing efforts. Or, do you want to talk about Twilight for a while? Because that's where any argument you make is going to lead.

Dresden is male Twilight. Poorly written books made to fulfill adolescent fantasies, highlighted by multi-million dollar marketing efforts.

Areet, anons. Just disengaged brain from a day of magazine layout and writing editorial, and trying to get the Forsaken gears kicked into motion for what I'll be writing next week.

Completely unrelated, those of you who read/played Forsaken, thoughts on your favourite Lodges?

>>43623858

You are certainly free to dislike the Dresden Files. However, I'll inquire yet again. What contemporary urban fantasy books (or an other genre) meet you allegedly high standards, or are you some snob who simply believes the entire genre is beneath you?

Moreover, although Twilight and similar works do not suit my own tastes, I certainly do not begrudge the many million of fans who enjoy the series.

The purpose of fiction is generally to entertain, and books need not be literary masterpieces to achieve this modest goal. More importantly, you are not the standard for what's entertaining to anyone else.

>>43623934

I though you turned in your draft for The Pack.

Are you writing for a new Forsaken supplement?

>>43623952
Why are you getting so defensive?

Trying to claim the high ground or trying to divert the matter of contention is just poor form, and hoping to toss away the entire argument by saying "It's all just subjective, all opinions are worthless" is something I wish you would actually adhere to before you decide to express your opinions, rather than dredging up when you hope to dismiss someone else's.

But, I recognize when I'm dealing with a baby. Wasting my time getting the last word is poor form as well, so I'll just leave with this final bit.

They're books that are so easy to explain as to why they're bad, that the only way to defend them is to say "Well, I don't care that they're bad" or "Well, you're just mean, and I don't like to hear mean opinions."

At that point, it's embarrassing to watch you try to recommend the series.

>>43623934
Lodge of Lightning for sure. I'm also partial to the Lodge of Crows.

>>43624066

Let's try this one more time.

You claim there's not a single redeeming feature of the entire Dresden Files series. Your are entitled to your opinion. However, we have no frame of reference. Could you kindly indicate what books of the genre actually meet you approval in order that we can intelligently discuss the relative merits of the various works.

Your opinion that certain books are so bad that they need no explanation is both lazy and arrogant.

>>43624066
>They're books that are so easy to explain as to why they're bad,
well go on then, explain why they're bad, in your opinion.

>>43623952
>>43624186
Dude, it's a troll. Stop feeding it.

>>43624213
It's faggot-kun, he doesn't know when to stop and even if he did he wouldn't because he's autistically stubborn.

Diverting from the argument, I had an idea for how to make the Splicers from Bioshock into a Vampire Bloodline, they are a branch of the Noseferatu whose curse manifests as flesh they can sculpt like putty, great for dealing with injuries, not so great for your sanity.

>>43623413
>I'm a LOT older than 14
So you're admitting that his argument is legitimate, then? That if you were fourteen, he would be right about the books being complete garbage?

>>43624311

Huh? Did you even read the relevant posts and arguments. Are you the poster that first made the ridiculous and ignorant age claim?

>>43623934
I can't remember what it's called and don't have my books on-hand, but there's a Lodge for Ghost Wolves that believes that their patron First Born (Hungry Wolf, I think) is "dead" and that they can find and revive it. I loved it for a few reasons:
1) I recall reading in either the 1e core or in a side book that when Father Wolf let out his death cry, it vaporized one of his children, and the Lodge's story ties into that.
2) Their "thing" was consuming the dead to take their secrets and gain their power. Not a new concept, but one relatively untouched by the other First Born. (Death Wolf is more about spirits and bargaining/appeasing them. Hungry Wolf is more about scavenging and taking.)
3) It gives Ghost Wolves an option that isn't basically "werewolf Caitiff".

Not to detract from the erudite Dresden Files discussion, but have Dave or Chris offered any spoilers for The Pack or Signs of Sorcery?

>>43623934

Lodges? You are speaking my language.

The Lodge of Einherjar is great. Lodge members have a clearly defined aspiration and relation to Norse legend was a bonus (largely untapped stuff for Forsaken. barring the totems from the Lodge of Spires)

I love the Lodge of the Final Winter as a way to introduce a ostensible metaplot to the game (and who doesn't want some apocalypse in their Forsaken). I also loved it's benefit of not needing more than 3 hours of sleep, which impacted roleplay a lot for me in one of my games. I love bonuses like that from a lodge. Always felt more Cahalith or maybe Boneshadow though.

I liked that lodge of cannibals. They might not have been cannibals, but there was definitely some unsavoury business. I think it's the Wendigo lodge, but there's another one I always confused it with. I also liked its rite where you could taste your prey's memories through their blood. It made a member of our pack a very terrifying interrogator.

I like a lot of the Iron Master lodges, but they all felt too similar or didn't confer interesting enough benefits. Like, the Lodge of Arms and the Lodge of Metal (the crafters), the Lodge of Arms (the crafters: weapons edition). I actually really liked both, and I know the cultures of the lodges were different, so I'd like to see the weaponmasters/duelists lodge come back but also the blacksmith lodge. I feel like they could be combined as two parts of the same whole? I don't know. I made a smith warrior once and wasn't sure where to put him.

I also loved the lodge of Spires (even though the lodge of Ilia and of Stones both were basically the same thing), I guess the lodge of the Black Rat does the same thing so please more on that one, I guess. (also fall from any height would be great).

I liked the lodge of Crows as a storytelling device. As well as The Secret Tribunal. I liked whichever lodge gave, the rite of the ruined tongue. But mostly I just liked the rite. That's it off the top of my head.

>>43623855

>no demons

I'm guessing this means it's a 1e game? I would be open to joining and playing a werewolf but I can't go back from 2e.

>>43624177
>Lodge of Lightning for sure. I'm also partial to the Lodge of Crows.

I loved Lodge of Lightning but always felt they got robbed on totem bonuses.

>>43623934
Haven't gotten to play a character in the lodge yet, but I like the concept of the Lodge of the Chronicle.

>>43623934
Have not played WtF much, but I like the idea of the Lodge of Salvation (Storm Lords trying to redeem the Pure).

>>43622485
>>43622537
Pretty sure even VtR2e at least implies that bullets to the head are bad for vampires.

>>43622612
Beast was legitimately bad, but that's about all that's accurate in your post. The rest is rabble rousing. For one, the authors aren't famous for telling the fans to fuck off, and it really *wasn't* that SJW or /pol/. It was bad for it's own badness. It was bad because it came off as "kill the bullies", not because it came off as "die cis scum".

>>43623075
Who the fuck is Branford?

>>43623169
Yeah, but that story is clearly about a dude and a lady, isn't it? Also, link to that Wikihow article?

>>43624042
Nah, haven't finished my 2nd draft yet, but had to take a pause while hammering through magazine deadline crunch time.

>>43624177
Both cool choices, albeit the Lodge of Lightning kinda mutated in concept during the line's progression. Also both Tribal 'pillars', which is fair as they do cleave closely to Tribal themes.

>>43624373
Well there's the Eaters of the Dead in the Werewolf 2e core that are like that, albeit not with the death-cry-vapourised-Firstborn bit. I do agree that powerful Lodges offering Ghost Wolves something interesting to be part of is definitely cool.

>>43624549
All fine choices! Wendigo are a bit cannibal, iirc, yes. Agreed with you on some of the sameness between some Lodges re concepts. You also ended up with some overlap between Lodges because one was the Lodge of Concept XYZ (Tribe A Edition) and another the Lodge of Concept XYZ (Tribe B Edition).
A thought of mine: Lodges in 1e suffered because they didn't have a particularly strong underlying concept of what Lodges were in general. That is to say, they were basically specialised groups of like-minded Uratha, which is a massive, massive area of possibility - meaning that *what a Lodge was* was a vague and nebulous thing shoved into various, not always very appropriate moulds. In many ways, they were amongst the most Prestige Class-y of the Z axis societies, not always very thematically tied to the game beyond offering specialisation in a particular direction.

Therefore, a proposition for anons to consider: Something as simple and, well, *dull* as 'I'm a great crafter/fighter/whatever' should not be the foundation concept of a Lodge. Lodges should be based on a fundamentally different underpinning.

Agree/disagree?

(I already know how I'm doing 2e Lodges but I am curious as to what extent anons think I am on the right track or am stupid and wrong).

>>43624393
Dunno about Signs of Sorcery but I'm pretty sure DaveB listed the general info on what was going into it at some stage.

The Pack will be cool. It is right now getting cooler because we are doing our second drafts and the first drafts were great but could of course be even better.

I am writing two sections of The Pack.

Don't think I have anything else I can say about it atm. Stew hasn't given out any spoilers as yet. Hopefully once 2nd drafts are in he will?

I can surmise MtC like this:
>"Ok Murray, show him howto be scary"
>"PHORMICO PLUKUM DAT RICKAR MON-Ow! Mah back!"

>>43624937

Well I always thought there was (or at least was supposed to be) a specific subculture in each lodge. Like, its gives your character something that no nonlodge member character have or will ever have.

Like, you look at a lodge member from the outside and think, yeah he's a bit weird. I don't really get him sometimes. It's all a secret club with a purpose or philosophy that no one else really quite understands or subscribes to. Not enough to make you alien or damage (usually) relationships with nonlodgees, but enough to make you different from them. That idea is cool to me from a player standpoint.

>>43623855
As the other person mentioned, you might want to specify whether you're 1e or 2e. But beyond that, don't you think five players is enough? Six is where games start to burst at the edges...

I know some people like to have enough players to run even if some people drop out or don't show up, but I've always found it's easier to start a game with people you already know can and will commit to the time.

>>43624937

In the spirit of some of the better intentions of Beast, how about some Lodges that specifically deal with other splats in a less than hostile matter. Crossover almost always appeals to fans.

A lodge that explores the shadow with mages, seeks insight into the dead by working with vampires, etc., would be a lot of fun. It also wouldn't require much, if any knowledge of the other game lines, as most of the relevant info would be about setting and themes.

>>43623075
Who the hell is Branford? Has Aspel developed an anti-Aspel?

>>43624937
> Something as simple and, well, *dull* as 'I'm a great crafter/fighter/whatever' should not be the foundation concept of a Lodge. Lodges should be based on a fundamentally different underpinning.
Agreed. The "I'm a great _____" thing is easy to come up with concepts for, but the design space isn't terribly large/diverse.
Making them more narrative-focused provides WAY more room for cool/interesting Lodges:
"There's some ...THING below the ice, and we must appease it or else bad things will happen."
"Our patron is missing, and we want to find it."
"We were chosen by God to smite the wicked."
"Why the fuck are there so many vampires? Actually, what the fuck ARE vampires? Let's figure this shit out."

>>43625375
The Tribe writeups already have a bit of that. Lodges could aim in even more on these.

Lodge of the [Envoys to Vampires]
Lodge of the [Underworld Explorers]
Lodge of the [Freehold Protectors]

etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhhrLpGa3ZI
The only way he can be brought back, is by saying his name Three Times...

Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice.
>"It's showtime."

>>43623934
Lodge of the Lost, definitely. Ignoring for the second their war against terrifying kaiju, the idea of a Lodge displacing its members from time is just amazing. I just loved that flavor.

It was also one of those things that was full of plot hook opportunities, and I've even used them in games from other lines.

Another thought: There is one thing that is unique about a Lodge - namely that what *makes* it a Lodge is that it has a totem tying it together with a bond.

A totem bond is a sacred, spiritual, *powerful* union, but from some Lodge descriptions you'd be forgiven for forgetting the totem exists, let alone that it has any hand in anything the Lodge does.

But Lodges straddle that position between Pack and Tribe. That's precisely where you should be putting the active, meddling, engaged spirit that is *interested* in what Lodge members are doing, that drives the Lodge's agenda, that fucks about and gets right in your life at inconvenient times because it wants you to do shit because *you swore a fucking oath to the Lodge and you're damn well gonna see it through*.

Therefore, a proposition: The totem should be a far more central figure to the Lodge than it is often portrayed as in 1e.

I'm rereading Lodges: The Splintered at the moment and a lot of totems are left with a single short paragraph, let alone two.

>>43625403
One person isn't enough to contain /wodg/'s boogeyman-ness.

>>43624937
>>43625431
>Therefore, a proposition for anons to consider: Something as simple and, well, *dull* as 'I'm a great crafter/fighter/whatever' should not be the foundation concept of a Lodge. Lodges should be based on a fundamentally different underpinning.
My problem with this is that the more narrative focused groups--and this applies to everything, not just Lodges, Legacies have it in spades--are REALLY TERRIBLE in games. There's this underlying question of either "why should I care?" when it comes to them being in a game, as well as the fact that their Lodge goals becomes as much a gimmick as the GI Joe characters.

What does the guy from Lodge of the [Envoys to Vampires] do when the game isn't related to vampires? What does the Lodge of the [Underworld Explorers] do when you aren't in the Underworld? If going for more thematic Lodges, make sure they're themes that can still work well outside their area of expertise. Otherwise, you get the Aquaman problem.

Aquaman is *fucking strong*. He can lift tankers on land, and he can withstand gravity effects that have put Superman to a knee. Depending on the writer, he can also short circuit people's limbic systems because fish brains. Sometimes he's even been able to control water, or had a magical water hand. No matter where he is, a punch is still a punch.
But setting an Aquaman story in the middle of Death Valley or even outer space FEELS wrong.

>>43625625
I think that is a general problem with Z-splats. Often times they are a bit too weird. Many of the original Bloodlines had that and it cropped up with Lodges and Legacies too.

As soon as you put them into a game, the game focuses a lot on the Z-splatter and what they do and moves away from the common themes of the main splat. That's why I prefer Z-splats that are a bit more sedate.

>>43625534
That lodge works because it plays to the conceptual powers deal that Spirits have, instead of the more mechanically straightforward stuff Mage has. The truth of the matter is that the Lodge was wiped out in the war, so of course, everyone who is a member of it is dead, including those who curiously insist on walking around.

>>43625610

How about a really screwed-up lodge that's connected to am Abyss-tainted spirit as a mage crossover, and the werewolves have no clue about the nature of the Abyss.

Whats a /wod/ larp like? The larp threads always see more classic larping.

>>43625625
>>43625714
That seems like a bad way to look at it. Legacies add a bit more mechanical uniqueness to a character, and a Mage with a Legacy is not wholly about that Legacy like Aquaman is (as named) about the water. Keep in mind that 2e has a bigger focus on player driven narrative, as well, so player specific narrative elements are a good thing.

>>43625625
>What does the guy from Lodge of the [Envoys to Vampires] do when the game isn't related to vampires?

Who is this asshole, and why did he make a character with that focus in a game that wouldn't involve Vampires as an element? Please stop creating scenario that assumes one of the people involved is a shithead.

>>43625610
My 2 cents:
It should vary depending on the Lodge. The totem aspect can force the Lodge to have a certain degree of relevance in the current game, which as >>43625625
pointed out, may be either too much or too little.
A highly-relevant Lodge provides plot hooks, but could overshadow the ST's desired story.
A barely-relevant Lodge provides character background and a few tricks, but could beg the question of why they're in a Lodge in the first place.

>>43625892
fucking this.

>>43625892

First, any lodge is optional.

Moreover, the werewolf who's an [envoy to vampires], doesn't need vampires to be present to be useful or thematically relevant.

Although we don't yet know the exact benefits of lodge membership in 2e, any powers or knowledge gained by membership in the "vampire envoy" lodge could be useful in many scenarios. Even if contact with vampires is necessary for information or guidance, it's not like werewolves and vampires have some prohibition on using telephones or email.

Arguing that a crossover lodge shouldn't exist because the other splat isn't present in a particular chronicle, is like arguing players should join the Blood Talons because the group will not be fighting the Pure or other werewolves in a chronicle.

>>43625925
To be fair, if the player isn't creating the character after discussing the story and setting with the ST, coordinating his concept with the other players, and considering which things he could take will add to the game rather than detract from it, he's doing it wrong.

>>43625994
That's not what I'm driving at. I'm saying that a dude taking a lodge that isn't likely to come up, and furthermore, as some people are suggesting, is insisting that the ST shoehorn those elements in, is an asshole. There are plenty of situations where [Envoy to Vampires] would be a pretty great Lodge to take, but the scenario the person was suggesting assumes the person doesn't care about the game he's joining.

A thought on Lodge benefits, alongside a rant about XP discounts.

So, Lodge benefits are all over the place in 1e. My concern is less that some are simply better than others (though that is the case) and more that there is absolutely no coherent design behind what sort of benefits should be given. Some give you innate bonuses, others XP discounts, others give you a free fetish and that's it, others give you this that and the other.

This is a bit rubbish, really. You have Tribes with quite clear delineations of what Tribal membership gives you, and packs with the same, then Lodges are just a kinda sloppy mess spooned into the middle with the hope it all vaguely sticks together.

Therefore, a proposition: Lodge benefits need to be more rigorously put through an actual design philosophy. Among other things, this helps prevent the wider disparities in power, and the disparities in just, well, interestingness (one Lodge has this, that, the other, some rituals, some fetishes, etc, and has a really cool armoury of stuff that members get access to in general; another Lodge has 'get this one thing that doesn't really inform how the Lodge works at all, I just had to think up a bonus of some sort to go here').

Now my XP rant.

I hate Lodge XP discounts. Taken at baseline 1e rules they give perverse incentives that encourage applicants to be *worse* at the stuff the Lodge is good at ('we're great warriors and give Weaponry at x2 rather than x3 new dots. Wait... that means you're gonna have more XP at the end if you join while relatively shit at Weaponry to begin with.'). Taken at a sensible approach - refunding XP that would otherwise have been wasted, they're just dull - they don't give anything interesting, just make the character more efficient. That XP discount isn't as broadly theme-shaping as the one given by a Tribe on Gifts. The Lodge that gives you a unique or unusual power or capability? That's cool. The Lodge that says 'lol get Athletics cheap dude' is shit.

>>43625846
I think that looking at it as "you get more mechanical uniqueness" is a bad way to look at it, and a bad way to treat legacies. That's exactly what I'm talking about when I say that it's like GI Joe themes or Aquaman. The guy who's theme is water--or jungle, or being an Indian, or whatever--feels out of place a lot more. I mean, look at who they chose for the Avengers movie. They chose people who are pretty generic when you get right down to it, because it feels weird to have the guy who's theme is that they're empowered by ancient Egypt to be doing non-Egypt things.

>>43625892
Except that's how all the Z-splats are by necessity. If you become a Magistrate of the Wax Mask then you're kind of stuck as the butler, and that means you're not going to be going out and doing sneaky detectivework. If you're in the Walker in the Mists, you're kind of typecast into only doing Druidy shit. Hell, something like the Molucusians are pretty much NPC only because they're stationary.

This is why things like The Eleventh Question or even The Whipping Boys are good. Their themes work for what characters will want to do (investigation and getting punched respectively). The Whipping Boys are heavily BDSM themed, but they go great with what the Adamantine Arrow philosophy. While the ̶Z̶-̶F̶i̶g̶h̶t̶e̶r̶s̶ Perfected Adepts are strongly focused on things like meditation and self-perfection, they don't have an Order theme that begs the question "why am I doing this [solving this mystery, stopping this villain, avenging this death] instead of doing [Legacy Things]?"

And that's what makes for a good Z-splat. You can see them focused on things that PCs already want to do, in a way that doesn't inherently stop them from being PCs.

>>43626122
>So, Lodge benefits are all over the place in 1e. My concern is less that some are simply better than others (though that is the case) and more that there is absolutely no coherent design behind what sort of benefits should be given. Some give you innate bonuses, others XP discounts, others give you a free fetish and that's it, others give you this that and the other.
>This is a bit rubbish, really. You have Tribes with quite clear delineations of what Tribal membership gives you, and packs with the same, then Lodges are just a kinda sloppy mess spooned into the middle with the hope it all vaguely sticks together.
This is why my group never bothered with Lodges at all in 1e, even though we loved both Bloodlines in Vampire and Legacies in Mage (and even Athanors in Promethean, even though they came off as almost a minor token afterthought just to have a Z-splat). It is worth noting that all three of those alter or express something about the character's self, while Lodges are pretty much just pure organizations.

I like Z splats that are something in between the X splat and the Y splat - part organization/society, yes, but also part inherent thing about your character. Lodges came off as basically "another Y splat, but smaller".

>>43626127
>I think that looking at it as "you get more mechanical uniqueness" is a bad way to look at it, and a bad way to treat legacies. That's exactly what I'm talking about when I say that it's like GI Joe themes or Aquaman. The guy who's theme is water--or jungle, or being an Indian, or whatever--feels out of place a lot more. I mean, look at who they chose for the Avengers movie. They chose people who are pretty generic when you get right down to it, because it feels weird to have the guy who's theme is that they're empowered by ancient Egypt to be doing non-Egypt things.

The problem I have with your viewpoint is that it assumes that having something unique about you means being wholly about that uniqueness. Z-Splats are tertiary character elements, whereas getting all your powers from Egypt is not.

>>43626092
>>43625959
>>43625892
>>43626020
The problem is that if I join the Lodge of [Envoys to Vampires] in story one and story two and three have no vampires...
It's not being an asshole and playing a character that doesn't fit. It's the game moving on.

And even then, if ALL the Lodges are that specific, you can only choose one or two Lodges when joining a game, or you brute force a Lodge into a game it doesn't fit just because you really like them.

>>43625994
>Arguing that a crossover lodge shouldn't exist because the other splat isn't present in a particular chronicle, is like arguing players should join the Blood Talons because the group will not be fighting the Pure or other werewolves in a chronicle.
I was only using "Lodge of [Envoys to Vampires]" as an example. The same goes with any of the existing groups. Subnet doesn't have the Werewolf Lodges, so I'll use other examples than the ones I've already used:

Molucusians are Ventrue who control territory, using their spider discipline to turn their Haven into a trapped web of their control. They're inherently bad as PCs because they're stuck in their Haven.
Likewise, the Mabry are pretty much stuck being not only bikers, but the Titty Twister in From Dusk Til Dawn, where they're pretty stationary.

Switching to Changeling, the Scarecrow Ministry is mostly just playing at Scooby Doo villains, and their whole schtick revolves around scaring people. If there's no one to scare (to keep them from looking too close at something) there's not much for them to do.
The Icebound Duchy's schtick is basically being playboys. Why would they bother doing PC stuff when they could be breaking hearts?
The Satrapy of Pearls are basically super whores and people who want to make a deal at any cost. Although I guess them and the Tolltaker Knighthood could work with a group because you pay them, but I've always found "I'm only with you because of a paycheck" to be bad for group cohesion.

>>43626122
>Taken at a sensible approach - refunding XP that would otherwise have been wasted
This is honestly how Professional Training in 2e should work, because that one dot that's "take a Beat every time you buy this skill" is so ridiculously shitty from a design perspective that it makes me feel nothing is playtested.

>>43626122
What if the XP discount was replaced with an increased to that skill's maximum dots?

>>43626219
I agree with this. Lodges were the only Z-Splat I never bothered with much because they were almost either a mechanically good, but boring bonus (xp discounts), or a somewhat flavorful thing that wasn't actually useful.

>>43626122
I agree that they need to be a lot more equal in what they're giving out. That said, the Lodge things worth taking were always the weirdest ones, like that sphinx lodge that made you dead according to time based divination/magic.

>>43626367
I have taken to have these abilities work retroactively, specifically to circumvent this problem. That being said, I agree with Chris that this is not good design to begin with.

File: Houserules.pdf (1B, 486x500px)

1B, 486x500px

>>43626295
It's not--inherently--which is why I didn't actually bring up Moon Knight, it's just that when your theme clashes with things it becomes weird. This is one of my problems with Batman-as-supergenius-rich-guy. Having a Batmobile and a Batjet and a Bat-Mecha feels like it lessens the theme of "crazy guy who dresses as a bat to scare criminals".

I remember seeing a video that I can't find (it might have been Comic Misconceptions?) where they talk about how Batman is kind of lessened by the Justice League. When he's stopping Apocalypse and saving all of reality, it really weakens the idea that he could ever be threatened by organized crime or Dick Tracy villains.

Theme is really important. That's why things like Eleventh Question are inherently better for being player character types. Their theme matches what player characters want to do. A group that's all about questioning the Dead is good, too, because Ghosts are a common part of the World of Darkness--doubly so if the THEME of "Shadow Talkers" is broad, and all about talking not just to Ghosts, but the 'invisible' people like the homeless--because talking to people and canvassing large groups is something WoD characters already want to do, most of the time.

Meanwhile something that's just "we're a carnival" is much harder to justify in a group or game that doesn't focus on that thing.

>>43626461
I just completely changed the Professional Training merit. It's one of my Houserules.

>>43626323
>It's not being an asshole and playing a character that doesn't fit. It's the game moving on.

If it's not a major element in the campaign, you would have known not to take it. If your ST didn't explain that Vampires were only going to matter for one story and let you take it anyways, then either he's the asshole, or he's taking a very weird angle for making your stuff more applicable later.

>or you brute force a Lodge into a game it doesn't fit just because you really like them.

A person who would do that shouldn't be playing tabletop games anyways. Kick them out and move on.

>>43624393

Signs of Sorcery is about Mysteries of a Supernal nature - we've got a chapter about Mage Sight and Supernal Entities (plus weirder things like Arcadia's Thorns, Aether-Storms, and Thyrsus Singing Paths). We've got a chapter on crafting - imbued and enhanced items, the magical materials, and suchlike. We've got a chapter on the Awakened's scholarship as Mysteries themselves - expanding 2e's rules for the resources of an Order to model looking shit up in the Aethenea, new and interesting forms of Grimoire, an expansion of soul stones, etc. We have a chapter about just plain weird things of a Supernal bent, like Emanation Realms, Ochemata, Ananke, Artifacts, and Sariras.

And we have a chapter about Awakening itself - theories on predicting or causing them, playing through the Awakening as an existing Sleeper or Sleepwalker character, and unusual Awakenings.

That last part's particularly interesting in the drafts. Want to play an Acanthus who got thrown forward 200 years in his Awakening, Sleepy Hollow-style? Got you covered.

>>43626295

z-splats actually tend to define the focus of your character at a much more refined level.

Interesting how Changelings and Werewolves can change their z-splats with relative ease, whereas Vampires, Mages, and Prometheans are stuck with theirs - Changeling and werewolf z-splats tend to be more social, whereas the others are more personal.

>>43626503
>11th question

That alone made GotV worth the 2$ I paid for that piece of crap.

>>43607245
Probably quite well known too, but Seanan McGuire seems to have this intuitive grasp of Changeling, the first book in October Daye reads a lot like a human kidnapped and made a changeling who then has to pick up the pieces of her life, and the third book has her go back to rescue a bunch of kids that were also captured. Unfortunately I stopped reading about book 5, it just wasn't my cup of tea.

>>43611109
>"Blood Sorcery was a mistake" ̶-̶ ̶H̶a̶y̶a̶o̶ ̶M̶i̶y̶a̶z̶a̶k̶i̶ - Dave Brookshaw

Wait, did he actually say that? I don;t recall anything on other WW forums.

>>43626522
Have you ever actually played RPGs?

I mean, honestly, what have your games looked like?

First off, everyone in this thread is acting like it's somehow STANDARD that everyone makes their characters together, but I'm at the point where I'm refusing to tell players what system I'm thinking about running when I have a game idea precisely because I know they'll go off and make their characters without talking to me or each other. Even this >>43623855 Gamefinder thing looks like someone hit theyfightcrime.org a few times.

Second, like I said, almost EVERY Lodge, Legacy, Bloodline, or Entitlement is thematically limiting. A few of them are only going to flavour your outlook (To not use Eleventh Question again: The Sotoha, Kuufukuji, Sacred Band of the Golden Standard, Whipping Boys) but not really limit what you can do or where your priorities might lie. A Sotoha and a Gilded Aspirant can still delve into the same mysteries as other Vampires or Changelings, they're just going to approach it differently. The Samurai is going to be measured and careful while the Aspirant is going to brag and boast. But neither of them will ever need to ask themselves "why am I doing THIS instead of something ELSE?"

Using a non-WoD example, it's like a scientist character. Most Z-Splats are basically asking you to go do field work in a specific discipline, while the average WoD game is probably going to want you to be something different. And the problem here is exactly the "why make a character who doesn't fit the game" question. Being in a Z-splat group is like being a scientist. You have to ask yourself "why am I solving this mystery that doesn't necessarily affect me, personally, when I could be doing geology?"