Pathfinder General /pfg/

I bet it's the Runelords. Bunch of old wizards with infinite resources and god complexes.

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>>43605560
Drow > Kitsune for marriage potential.

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>>43605548
I find it hilarious that i thought it was Touhoufag, only to find out its worse in that it is some weird council straight out of a conspiracy theory.
>>43605591
Why do you often post weird progressive drow women trying to force their new age values and covering up skin. Tis an offense to lolth and it destroys traditional drow family values. How will people be blinded by lust and betray each other, or set a good example for their kids to seduce their enemies to better gain access to their secrets? Not to mention the degradation of drow morals and culture such clothes bring about, soon people will only be having sex for love, its disgusting.

I want to fuck a moon rabbit

>>43605591
If getting your balls viced on the regs is what gets you going, more power to you.
I'll stick with a Thriae doting over me.until I'm too old to bone anymore.

A bunch of threads ago I remember one namefag wanting to make some exotic PC races, Beeltemen being one of those
Did he post them?

>>43605591
Doppleganger is where it's best
Why choosing a waifu when you can have all of them?

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>>43605652
>Not becoming the superior, immortal husbando
It's like you don't want to be the perfect catch for your bee women.
>>43605628
Sometimes you gotta leave things to the imagination, brother. Like where she is hiding the dagger

With a statline of, in order, 16-14-14-14-12-14, are there any caster or half-caster classes that I could take and not be horrible with?

What can I take to reduce the penalty for fighting defensively at-will?

>>43605780
that is a really good statline
does that include racials?

>>43605780
Is that Pre or Post racial adjustments?

>>43605780
Skald?
>>43605792
Crane style?

>>43605792
a few ranks in acrobatics reduces the negatives for fighting defensively

>>43605780
Wizard. Perfect wizard stats, barring not having 18 natural Int. Being -1 mod isn't that bad though. Druid is good too, as well as cleric. Hell, you'll do fine with basically any caster/partial caster.

>>43605795
>>43605797
Post, and human. Plus the character actually already has a few levels so an initial 11 became a 12.

>>43605780
>>43605814
Wait I'm an idiot and missed the "in order" part.

No you're kind of boned for full casting. Any 6th/4th level max caster you can pull off, though.

>>43605803
>Skills If you have 3 or more ranks in Acrobatics, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2, and a +6 dodge bonus to AC when taking the total defense action instead of the usual +4.

No?

>>43605818
Magus, Skald, Alchemist, Investigator. Basically any half caster that can use STR and doesn't run off of WIS

Is there any effective way to make a crowd-control character that uses earth-based methods to do it? Encasing people in stone and the like.

>>43605833
oh, whoops
I thought it reduced the negatives as well as increasing the positives.
crane style i think does

>>43605840
wizards are the ultimate crowd controllers
so many spells
wall of stone is fun

>>43605814
Wizards need 16 strength?

>>43605840
as easy as it is to summon a bunch of mud golems to do it for you. Aside from that, create pit, and other stuff, you can just refluff spells. (or use the spell researching thing to change the type of an existing spell to earth)

>>43605880
Got Transmuter, put your lvl 4/8 increases in Int, Physical Enhancement in Str, turn into a 22 Str giant octopus with 8 20ft reach attacks at +5 each

>>43605931
>implying that's going to hit shit

>>43605837
I think I like magus' but can I still be viable without this scimitar/dervish stuff? I'd prefer to use a 2handed weapon or something with reach.

>>43605931
That's not how it works.

>>43605954
2 handing with a magus is one of those "If your DM lets you" things. Strength magus can be viable thanks to their scaling "cast in armor" class feature. You'll have slightly better damage in the early game at the cost of AC, so you'll be more of a glass cannon than usual.

It's still viable, you just need to be a little more careful.

>>43605847
Sadly, that feat chain is too intensive and wasteful for me.

Does anything else work?

>>43605954

You can't spell combat with a two handed weapon. Your best bet is use a bastard sword with EWP. This way you can activate spell combat with the sword in 1 hand, and spellstrike and full attack with 2 hands.

>>43605991
Okay, so the bastard sword is an option. Thanks.

>>43605991
Wait, could this kind of thing also work with lances on horseback?

>>43605964
Dip Master of Many Styles Monk. The nerf it got hit with wouldn't affect the Crane Style feat itself.

The Threatening Defender trait also reduces the penalty by -1.

The Swordlord prestige class reduces it too but that is a terrible option, because it has horrible feat taxes to get into and you wouldn't get it until Sworldlord 3.

There's probably more somewhere.

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How do I play a cleric?

I can play a wizard well, and I can play a fighter well, but playing a cleric always feels like I have worse spells than the wizard and don't hit as often as the fighter. What am I doing wrong?

>>43606103
Stop trying to do damage, and focus on helping your team mates.

>>43606116
That's generally what I do as a wizard, but the cleric's toolkit seems to have less to offer, unless I'm overlooking the good stuff.

>>43606103
Depends what you want to do as a cleric. There's a couple of directions you can take it.

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>>43606127
I think the clerics spell list and Paizos general distaste for divinity has much to do with their euphoria complex and autism.

But really clerics are lvl 9 casting summon/buff/beat machines. You need to stop playing like a wizard and a fighter and start either buffing your party or buffing yourself and becoming the pain train.

>>43606250
What would you say are the best buffs at early levels? I'm used to supporting through battlefield control/debuffs and the like rather than direct buffs.

>>43606250
> think the clerics spell list and Paizos general distaste for divinity has much to do with their euphoria complex and autism.
Paizo fucking loves their deities. Atheists are actively punished in the afterlife and looked down upon in the lore. You're required to have a patron in PFS. I don't see how you could think Paizo dislikes the divine.

>>43606351
Don't take the bait anon.

>>43605628
>progressive
>covering up skin

Please. They're just ashamed of how pathetically fat their waist and thighs have gotten. Their bodies are unattractive and unworthy of self-confidence, so they try to cover it up with elaborate dresses and big words.

It's not much different from men with micropenises, hiding behind their big expensive sports cars in their 40s.

Well, obviously it can't be identical, since one's men, the other's women, and one's using dresses and jewelry, while the other's using vehicles. The only way it would be more than just similar is if there were just as many tubby bitches pretending they're as sleek as their ferrari while their dickless husbands run around with jeweled purses held in front of where their cock would be.

>>43605840
>is there a way to <X>?

Wizard.
>pit spells
>wall spells
>petrification
>summon earth elementals
>stone to mud, mud to stone

>>43606371
>>43606351
EITHER WAY
Within the setting of pathfinder, there ARE deities, so pretending there are none is exactly as delusional as pretending they're real in our world.

It's one thing to call them out on their bullshit, or claim that their limitations make them less than the supreme beings they declare themselves to be, but to flat out disbelieve takes some serious disconnect from reality.

So it's probably Atheists that strap themselves to bombs in hopes of fucking virgins in the afterlife, over on Golarion.

>>43605780
16 str and 14 int is acceptable for a str magus. sorry about your weird fucky stat array, did you roll those or what?

Is there any particular organization on Golarion that would have enough of a dislike for mages to train a Fiendbound Marauder Warder in choking them to death, and that'd have a justifiable reason for one of them to be in the Darklands or at least Shoanti lands?

>>43606429
I think it has more to do with "my int trumps your Wis any day". It's why Int gets so much and wizards get so many damn feats and metamagics and spells versus clerics.

Just look at how wizards just jump from the call on their own and shadow the divine characters in oh so many ways. Plus clerics get a pitiful amount of skills versus the "super bright wizards".

To say thay the divine are missing from the setting is ludicrous as you say but to say where paizo puts their true form irs definitely behind the Int caster who can ascend to his own godhood

>>43606475
Hellknights, or a Divine Magic hunter from Rahadoum

>>43606429
No, people who don't take an active deity are punished or at the very least considered atheists on Golarion.

The Iconic Wizard know there are gods, he just considers them powerful outsiders and feels like he doesn't owe them shit. Pharasma the bitch lord punishes people like that, because they don't really have anywhere to go in the afterlife and that triggers her autism.

Generally speaking, other than the obvious "higher = better", around what should one's saves be at at any given level?

Say, 5/10/15 in particular.

Is 11/14/13 really good at level 10? Or is it just decent?

>>43606532
So you're saying golarion is flat out a cheap copy Toril?

That insane place where the gods were such shitheaded toddler-tantrums that they had to erect a capture system for nonbelievers so they can sell the souls to demons for more power instead of letting them freely go to the plane of their alignment as is the cosmological standard?

The place that, in so doing, should by all means have been eradicated by half the multiverse for literally mucking up the entire soul system?

>>43606567
I'm not saying Iomedae is a toddler tantrumer... but what I'm saying is she'd probably tantrum like a toddler

>>43606532
kinda says something about the gods when they need to hold a proverbial gun to your head just to get some worship energy.

>>43606588
Which kinda says something about Paizos views towards the divine...

*cough* euphoria *cough*

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How do I create an A.I. projection ala Cortana in Pathfinder for an Iron Gods game? With all the familiar archetypes, improved archetypes, etc. there's gotta be a way. 3rd party is a dead last resort.

>>43606532
>No, people who don't take an active deity are punished or at the very least considered atheists on Golarion.
Citation please? I feel you always keep getting overly angry about Pharasma every single thread, especially when people tell you you can't ha e Good Undead

Any cool feat chains for a non-combatant? Doing a Loracle and our DM loves to RP and I am stumped for feats.

>>43606621
I'm guessing either Figmant or Emissary familiar

>>43606588
>>43606613
>>43606567
Except none of this is true. Nonbelievers are delivered to Pharasma and delivered to the plane their most aligned with in terms of their alignment, and that's it. Nonebelievers and believers alike are filtered in small amounts to the Daemons for consumption, but by and large, Pharasma doesn't give a shit whether you were a believer or not unless said deity actually has a hold on your soul for some reason.

At least read the damn books you're claiming shit about.

>>43606621
Pretty much you go Psion Uncarnate, and that's it.

>>43606664
It's the same anon who keeps shitposting about his massive rage boner for Pharasma every other thread because he wants Good Undead. He's been doing this for several months now

>>43606663
Figment could work but why do you think mmisary?

>>43606429
I'm not sure why, but for some reason the term atheist is taken to mean "I don't think any of the gods are worth worshiping" rather that "I don't believe any gods exist" in Golarion.

>>43606676
>>43606648
Oh, one of those.

>>43606689
Cortana is basically your guide angel, and she obviously has some moral backing which she tries to pass on to the chief. You could see her as his Shoulder Angel that was made just for him by Halsey, so she's Halsey's Emissary to the Chief.

>>43606429
Not really.

It's fairly easy to disblieve in gods when there are so many magical explanations for eveythign else. He could simply believe that deities are just monsters or extraplanar beings of immense power, and not gods at all. All magic is arcane magic to him, regardless of whether it is divine in source or not.

You really cvan't prove that gods exist - even the two deities that ascended are just people who vanished and people claim are deities after they were annihilated by the Starstone.

Sure, he might seem craszy to most people, but fundamentally, there really ISN'T proof that deities are just really powerful magic users.

>>43606701
Wouldn't maltheist be more appropriate there?


Hey you know what's not a fucking street sign? A FUCKING TREE, captcha

>>43603211
>Umbiladaemons
>death through childbirth
>they look like extremely pale women who constantly shiver, their stomachs distended as if pregnant
>they have no mouths or noses, or a collection of mismatched eyes that constantly leak amniotic fluid
>because they died creating life, they are filled with positive energy which they use to heal other daemons in battle
>once per encounter, instead of summoning another of their kind, they can burst their wombs to create a far stronger demon with the souls they've collected, dealing a large amount of damage and stopping them from casting most of their spell like abilities until they heal this damage
>they don't need to burst their stomachs to create a daemon of lesser strengthen, in which case they give birth to them normally
>they tend to used to churn out troops in a quick fashion when important battles need backup, or as field medics

>>43606740
>there really ISN'T proof that deities are just really powerful magic users.
Which is why Razmir is able to fool so many.

>>43606673
For a familiar, not for my character.
>>43606713
Well that's a pretty cool way of looking at it. I approve. I was just having trouble with creating an intangible familiar.

>>43606755
I'm pretty sure most groups are going to be weirded out too much by this, anon.

Cool idea in theory though.

>>43606755
Noice! A daemon driven by thier own compassion to watch over the other daemons, and fulfill the maternal instinct they were never able to in life. A forlorn and tragic Fiend, which can still have conflict with a heroic part, but is sympathetic and possibly able to be reasoned with.
10/10 would summon and bind as a supernatural nurse-maid, and included in games.

>>43606676
What? I hate Pharasma but I've only mentioned it once or twice. I don't recall anyone like that.

That being said Pharasma is Neutral anyway. She's not good for hunting undead and only hates them because she's autistic, seriously. I'd probably agree with him.

As for source, look it up in the PF books on the great beyond.

>>43606804
I've been here on /pfg/ for ages, and you keep saying this every other thread, in the same posting style.

Also see >>43606664

>>43606804
Why do you hate Pharasma?

She judges souls upon their deaths, and the undead are just a massive middle finger to her entire role. The first undead is rumoured to be somebody who ran away from her judgement.

Is there any way to basically 'eat' magic? Absorb it for some sort of bonus or healing or something? Anywhere?

>>43606834
Drink a potion

>>43606834
The Consume Magic Items exploit for the arcanist fits what you're talking about. Why?

>>43606834
Well Tome Eater eat spell books and scrolls and can later eat spells cast from scrolls.

>>43606834
Rage Power
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/eater-of-magic-su

Also this one Bloodrager Archetype is close, but not quite what you want
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/spelleater

Also Occultist Archetype, but only for scrolls
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes/occultist/archetypes/paizo-llc---occultist-archetypes/tome-eater-occultist-archetype

>>43606877
Because I'm looking for some way to absorb magic as a martial and use it to heal myself or power things up.

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>>43606755
So the lady healers from Disgaea, minus the weird birth thingy?

>>43606827
I've said it in a few threads. I defend good Undead/necromancy as it comes up, but I don't actively bitch about it
>She judges souls upon their deaths, and the undead are just a massive middle finger to her entire role
It's a completely unnecessary job. She's essentially forcing people to die, when there's no real moral benefit to doing so besides "my deity buddies get more minions".

But to be honest I pretty much hate all of the Pathfinder gods, Pharasma, Iomdadae, and Sarenrae just stick out to me as being particularly bad.

>>43606897
Eater of magic then.

>>43606918
>Forcing people to die

Where did you get that impression? Death is part of the natural order. Her role is to ensure that all souls go to their rightful place.

>>43606741
Not exactly, I think, because a maltheist acknowledges that a god/gods exist and hates them. That's probably fitting for a number of people in Golarion, but you can presumably be maltheistic towards individual deities- for example, the average commoner probably worships one or two deities of their choice, pays lip service to most of the others when appropriate, but hates Zon-Kuthon, Asmodeus, and Lamashtu.

An atheist, in the sense that it gets used in Golarion, would be more like the high-level wizard who just doesn't have time for the gods. Sure, they exist, but he doesn't particularly care about any of them one way or the other. He's entirely apathetic towards divinity.

>>43606755
A daemon of "death by childbirth" makes me think of the flipside, a daemon of "death by stillbirth/abortion". Abortions and stillbirths are one of Urgathoa's things if I remember right, and it's interesting to note that Urgathoa lives in Abaddon. If these things existed I would imagine they would be her favored kind of daemon.

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>>43606955
I meant that in the sense that she punishes you if you have the power to avoid death. Urgurhoa(the first undead) is "evil" because she didn't want to die and had a means of not staying dead.

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>>43606918
>It's a completely unnecessary job. She's essentially forcing people to die, when there's no real moral benefit to doing so besides "my deity buddies get more minions".
I take it you've never studied Wildlife Biology or Natural Resource Management? Or understand the scientific laws of conservation. Or learned anything from Socratic Ethics. Or studied any religion in any real depth. Or done any hunting, fishing, or farming. Or watched Highlander.

Did you have some traumatic experience with death in your life? Are you afraid of letting go? Or do you wish to selfishly gnash against the equitability of death in a misguided attempt to reject the idea of existence beyond your physical existence? Are you afraid of living a life unremembered and unremarkable, and wish to come for more time, and allow yourself to become obsessed with the fear of obscurity and waste away your life trying to flee from a necessity? Are you not aware of the impact every life has on the life and experience of all other lives you encounter?

Then you might be a necromancer

>>43606918
>Imma say shit that directly contradicts the information about this goddess even though it's easily available in any number of places and assume that people will accept what I say as unquestionably correct

You're a moron. It even states outright she allows ressurection, reincarnation, and other 'come back to life spells' to work. She doesn't give a shit about who dies or why, or the justness of that death. She' allowed gods to die without informing her own followers who went nuts because of the death of a god, because it isn't her place to say whether or not someone or something should die, only to deal with its afterlife. She's amoral about the entire death situation, but when someone goes out of their way to not die, that's subverting the entire universes' pattern of life and death and recycling. If it's immortality, she doesn't care much, because even immortals can die, but undeath is forbidden because it's essentially a subversion of the way the universe is supposed to work.

Good undead? There is no reason for good undead to exist - there's plenty of ways to avoid death that don't involve undeath.

>>43606897
Is third-party allowed? If yes check out the Mongrel in Bloodforge, they get a major transformation like that.

Thaumavore (Su): Alterations to the mongrel’s blood and magical aura causes her to leech energy from spells cast upon her; the mongrel gains 5 temporary hit points whenever a spell is cast upon her and heals 1 point of ability damage. These temporary hit points do not stack with each other and last for up to 10 minutes. At 5th level, this improves to 10 temporary hit points whenever a spell is cast upon the mongrel.

>>43607037
Nature running its course isn't "moral" or "good", it just is.

>>43607043
> but undeath is forbidden because it's essentially a subversion of the way the universe is supposed to work.
Then why is it even possible then?
>there's plenty of ways to avoid death that don't involve undeath.
So why is undeath so terrible?

>>43607070
There is the buddhist concept of evil though that matches well with this. 'evil' in the pure entities/energy/effect sense is a perversion of the universe, and, like undead generally do, will taint and twist the very area around it if left alone too long or if it's powerful enough.

>>43607070
And trying to subvert it for selfish reasons at its expense when more holistic and less disruptive options exist is Evil broski.

>>43607099
It exists because of the extreme expanse of the willfull selfishness of Urgathoa, who basically went "Fuck reality" so hard she made herself into a living tear in the fabric of reality, that slowly eats away at everything.

>why is it terrible?
Because it's essentially like using a nuclear warhead to disinfect your kitchen counter. It's pointlessly excessive, destructive to everyone else, and there are better alternatives that don't cosmically rape life around it.

>>43607099
>Then why is it even possible then?
Because there are plenty of things that want to wreck shit beyond all recognition, who want to watch the world burn, etc. etc. so on and so forth, ad infinitum. Demons, devils, asura, divs, evil gods, horrors beyond space and time, etc. Undeath is one of myraid ways to do so.

>So why is undeath so terrible?
Because you're illiterate, apparently, because I just answered that question twice.

>>43607141
>Be wizard
>Become immortal.
>Devote time on studying magic and doing what little interaction I need to stay alive.
>Somehow I'm evil
Bitch, the only reason I'm murdering people is cause you keep sending them after me. Leave me alone so I can perfect my waifu in peace.

>>43607099
Well look at the main promoter of undeath on Golarion.
The Whispering Way, not very nice people.
Geb, not very nice country.
Nemret Noktoria, demon worshiping ghouls that are eating people and engage in slavery.
Shraen, undead drow. 'Nuff said.

>>43607016
Undeath is evil because you're powered by negative energy, which is a force probably originating from the universal corruption that created the nightshades. Negative energy is the antithesis of all life.

>>43607171
This isn't about things wanting to wreck shit, you said it was a subversion of the universe. All of those things you mentioned are things that naturally came about, and are a part of the universe. Negative energy is its own plane and is every bit as destructive as Positive Energy. It's like saying Dark Matter is evil/wrong/doesn't belong.
>Because you're illiterate, apparently, because I just answered that question twice.
No you didn't you fucktard.
>>43607193
Hey, every evil man in history drank water, breathed air, and ate food. They probably enjoyed doing those things too!

>>43607273
Yeah sure but can you give me an example of a good undead on golarion?

>>43607254
Then why doesn't the inflict line of spells have the evil descriptor? You're literally touching someone with raw negative energy.

>>43607254
Not that dude but negative energy is not evil. Neither is positive energy good. In fact positive energy can kill you too.

>>43607288
Isn't there a CG ghost in Carrion Crown? That's what I've heard stated a few times.

>>43607288
No, because "muh evil undead" is just one of those things that are endlessly copied ad-infintum for no reason.

>>43607320
Ghost template doesn't change alignment.

>>43607273
Its really fucking simple why Undead are evil. One is their fucking goddess who is evil and who was the first one. Two is the corrupting influence of negative energy used to power a corpse without the balancing element of positive energy. Three is that it's the provence of fiends. Its fuckign evil and youre a moron.

>>43607291
While negative energy itself is not evil and its use isn't evil, using it to power a corpse without the balancing element of positive energy leads to severe corruption of a soul and forms of psychotic behavior. In addition it leaks, further corrupting the surrounding environment leading to planar instability and speeding up the process of planar decay.

>>43607337
Ghosts are unique in that they are just souls without bodies and thus not subject to most concerns of undeath. Though they are prone to eventual insanity and evil alignment.

>>43607310
>>43607337
That's right, ghosts can be good. Although I think becomming a ghost is more about having some unfinished business than being a selfish dick who doesn't want to die or molest the bodies of the dead for cheap labor.

>>43607310
Ghost template does not change Alignment, nor does it have al alignment prereq. Plus the fluff says that, unless they have a goal or something to focus on they will eventually go crazy, and that lady was completely engrossed in preventing the Splatterman and all the other evil Undead from escaping the burnt prison. After you give her the power to banish the Undead for good, she voluntarily disipates and goes to the afterlife, her job completed and the town saved.

>>43607180
Doesn't matter what you become after you become undead, everything rises into undeath with the evil alignment. And nothing that is evil ever really has a reason to become good, because evil is easy, and evil wizards are even worse because they're close to amoral to begin with.

Absolute power, ei. al.

>>43607362
>Undeath is evil because you're powered by negative energy, which is a force probably originating from the universal corruption that created the nightshades. Negative energy is the antithesis of all life.

>While negative energy itself is not evil and its use isn't evil, using it to power a corpse without the balancing element of positive energy leads to severe corruption of a soul and forms of psychotic behavior. In addition it leaks, further corrupting the surrounding environment leading to planar instability and speeding up the process of planar decay.

Pick one. It's either the antithesis of life and the inherent corruption of the universe, or its a natural part of existence.

>>43607273
>Negative energy is its own plane and is every bit as destructive as Positive Energy. It's like saying Dark Matter is evil/wrong/doesn't belong.
Except that isn't what I said in the slightest.
>undeath is forbidden because it's essentially a subversion of the way the universe is supposed to work

I said UNDEATH is a subversion of how the universe works. Undeath is taking something that functions in a specific manner - birth, life, death, recycling of souls - and ripping a piece of that puzzle out of place and setting it aside. Saying undeath is a-okay is saying "this is all right, nothing to worry about here, I didn't just tear a section of universal continuity out of place for my own selfish purposes!"

The fact that you had to go out of your way and claim I said something I didn't is a good sign you're illiterate, or worse, willfully ignorant.

>>43607387
>Implying those are opposites.
The elemental energy of Evil is also a natural part of existence as well as a corruptive influence.

>>43607387
Its a natural part of the multiverse but having too much leads to corruption and decay. It is the antithesis of life and is needed in small amounts to power cell death. and other bodily processes. Undeath subverts this process and floods a body and soul with negative energy which is highly corruptive.

The plane itself is also host to a terrible and corrupting influence which created the nightshades.

Youre looking for a simple and basic understanding that will allow you to be able to argue for good undead, but we are working from a nuanced and complex understanding of the lore and it pretty much says, no good undead unless you're a ghost and even then you'll eventually become evil through insanity.

The way I tend to handle undead and alignment is that I don't think of alignment as reflective of you or your behavior but rather what the universe thinks of you or your behavior. In other words, If you do a lot of evil stuff the universe labels you evil, but if you start doing more good stuff the universe will eventually change your label to neutral and then good. The alignment the universe gives you obviously does not limit what you can do, IE having that evil label doesn't mean you can't do those good acts that would eventually change your label.

However, undead get a special situation because the universe is so insistent on them being evil that it will refuse to change their label, no matter what they do. This has nothing to do with their behavior, it's just "the way things are". The universe sees them as evil, and scholars/mages/occultists can spend years of research trying to figure out why. In the end, what this means is that a mindless undead, who would normally be considered a TN creature (only because Pathfinder lacks an "unaligned" option, in my opinion, but that's a different argument), gets labeled as NE by the universe. An intelligent undead can act in line with any of the nine alignments but the universe will label it as evil on the good-evil axis regardless. Even if you had a really nice lich who devoted his centuries of undeath and immense magic power to feeding his home nation, defending it from danger, and being a generally nice guy, the universe will still call him evil. NG in action, but NE in alignment. That means he pings as evil under Detect Evil and is vulnerable to Smite Evil, even though his actual behavior isn't evil.

Any of this make sense to you guys?

>>43607362
>Undead are evil. One is their fucking goddess who is evil and who was the first one
Who cares what the fucking goddess does? They don't automatically all have to suck on her big rotting/skeletal clit.
>Two is the corrupting influence of negative energy used to power a corpse without the balancing element of positive energy.
Positive Energy can harm you just as badly.
>Three is that it's the providence of fiends.
See the whole "Hitler drinks water" thing.
>>43607440
>Undeath is taking something that functions in a specific manner - birth, life, death, recycling of souls - and ripping a piece of that puzzle out of place and setting it aside.
Souls leaving the cycle of life and death isn't breaking the universe as a whole, it's just another path. I'm really not seeing you're logic, here friend. There is nothing inherently "good" about following the "cycle" of life and death and nothing bad about breaking it.

Undeath is simply another state of being, just like being a mortal, petitioner, or full blown outsider are all states of beings.

>>43607483
No, I'm pointing out that the two concepts you're using to argue your position are opposing views, creating a fallacy.

I don't care one way or the other about good/evil undead.

Undead are evil because the myths that the writers base their game off of have evil undead. Negative energy isn't evil because there's no mythology to support raw "harm" as inherently evil.

It's sloppy writing from beginning to end. Using "negative energy" as your argument for evil undead is flawed. Find a different argument.

>>43607499
Why not just drop "good" and "evil" as metaphysical concepts that are core to the universe. That shit has always been retarded.

>>43607516
>There is nothing inherently "good" about following the "cycle" of life and death and nothing bad about breaking it.
There apparently is in Pathfinder. Welcome to Paizo's setting.

>>43607534
Fuck it. I'll /give/ you a better argument. Look at the fluff descriptions for the actions which create undead. They're all powered by hate, despair, madness, or as a punishment for evil actions in life. That's why undead are evil, because it requires evil to create them.

>>43607516
>Souls leaving the cycle of life and death isn't breaking the universe as a whole, it's just another path.
Citation needed. Also, way to go ignoring>>43607154
faggot

>>43607516
Can you adopt a trip so I can filter you? This is just one big waste of time, could as well argue with a wall.

>>43607542
But Nature is neutral and following things just because is lawful. So at worst Necromancy/Undeath/Zombies and shit are just chaotic.
>>43607550
No.

>>43607516
>Who cares what the fucking goddess does? They don't automatically all have to suck on her big rotting/skeletal clit.
She fucking created them. She laid down how they function, or not, and the result is that they are evil in reflection of her.

>Positive Energy can harm you just as badly.
Only if you go the Positive energy Plane. And then you're basically healing so much it kills you because you developed a form of super cancer across your entire body. Otherwise it cant. So this point is utterly disingenuous since even the smallest amount of negative energy kills, even if slowly.

>See the whole "Hitler drinks water" thing.
Fiends are literally evil incarnate, Hitler was just a man who believed in some vile and nasty shit. Fiends represent evil in its truest forms. Whatever they advocate and push onto mortals furthers evil. This is such a basic idea that its ludicrous you wouldn't understand this. God it's like I'm arguing with a fucking five years old.

>>43607588
So by your logic all animals and mortal beings are Lawful Neutral since they follow the laws of reality such as basic physics and chemistry.

>>43607588
That's not what Paizo decided and if you actually decide to use their shit setting you deserve their retarded alignment rules.

>>43607516
>skeletal clit
THOSE CAN'T BE SKELETAL
THEY HAVE NO BONES

>>43607624
She is breaking the laws of nature anyways so who cares?

>>43607541
Because it's integrated into the system mechanically in a way that's useful. Mind you, I also like Unchained's rules for removing alignment, so I can go both ways. Most players though, in my experience, want alignment to exist in the game because it's what they're use to. I'm willing to meet them in the middle with it.

This way of handling undeath in regards to alignment is pretty internally consistent because it relegates alignment to being part of Golarion's laws of physics, basically. It's treating it like it's actually objectively defined, rather than having alignment be sometimes (most of the time?) subjective but then trying to claim it's objective. It's not part of your behavior, so you never have conundrums like "goblin babies, what do?" or "Thomas, the good-aligned necromancer". All I have to do is decide what the universe's objective alignment for something is and we get to carry on by just saying that's what the universe thinks of those things. The PCs are free to disagree with the universe, and in fact there may even be NPCs who do it too. For necromancy in particular, it creates interesting role playing opportunities where characters can try to work against the grain knowing that everyone will misread them. The necromancer that wants to do good and wants to help out, but who knows that he still pings as evil because the universe is a stubborn dick, so he's gotta be careful about how he plies his craft.

>>43607550
>This is just one big waste of time, could as well argue with a wall.
Welcome to every alignment argument ever involving undeath.

>>43607050
>bloodforge
No! Bad anon! Not on the rug!

>>43607549
>Citation needed
The Great beyond talks about
>>43607611
Assuming that undead are evil because negative energy and following that line of thinking,then yes. Its dumb.

>>43607687
I think that "Should Undead be Evil?" and "Does the description of how undead work make sense?" are two different arguments that just end up getting shoved together because they both talk about undead. Then people get confused because nobody's sure what the argument is actually about.

>>43607516
>Souls leaving the cycle of life and death isn't breaking the universe as a whole, it's just another path
It's subverting how the universe was designed to work.

>nothing inherently "good" about following the "cycle" of life and death
No, because it's neutral. It's a machine working as it is supposed to, there isn't anything good, lawful, chaotic, or evil about it.

>nothing bad about breaking it
Except you're purposefully damaging a system that makes the universe work as it should of course.

>Undeath is simply another state of being, just like being a mortal, petitioner, or full blown outsider are all states of beings
"It's okay to cross these wires and pull this piece out of the system, it won't damage anything." Except that's specifically what it does is take something that works, and purposefully breaks pieces of it apart to make things that should be dead act like they're alive with a whole bunch of side effects. Those other things were all planned for. The undead were specifically NOT planned for, and were specifically NOT designed as part of the system of how the universe works in question. You're taking something that works in a specific manner, purposefully breaking it, and then fucking with a bunch of other shit in the process of doing so whether you plan it or not such as negative energy, soul-affectign magic that gets changed by the status of somethign being undead, threatening life in general by the presence of undead, etc.

>>43607602
There's a number of spells that use positive energy to do harm, including most of the Shadow Magic type spells.

>>43607715
This, for sure.

>>43607377
>everything rises into undeath with the evil alignment

Except when they don't. Even core Pathfinder has explicitly non-evil methods of creating Undead.

>>43606828
Not the guy on about good undead, but I do understand the problem.

That undead are blasphemous to Pharasma doesn't make them evil, is the problem.

Negative energy empowers them, yes. But it's also canon that negative energy isn't evil, just the use you put it to (which can be good or evil depending on what you do).

Undead are BLASPHEMOUS to Pharasma, absolutely. There's absolutely no debating this point. But as she's a TN deity (who's acting so Lawful that the Aeons have to directly inject chaos into the multiverse so she doesn't fuck everything up), that something is blasphemous to her doesn't make that thing evil. Saying "undead are evil because they blaspheme Pharasma by existing" is retarded because Pharasma isn't good aligned. What makes it evil is "because Paizo says so" and nothing more.

Additionally, plenty of gods, good and evil alike, have snitched souls of particularly devoted followers right out of her soul river, bypassing her judgement. This is without doubt blasphemous, as the gods - and souls - are bypassing their proper judgement. But she does nothing about it (and she absolutely could, since she's canonically far more powerful than basically all of them and makes them follow the rules). Nor do the alignments of those gods change.

>>43607730
Citation on the shadow magic stuff, because from what I can find all of it just accesses the Plane of Shadow to do its stuff. Which is neither Positive or negative energy based.

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So the new feats for fighters look semi interesting. Do you think they're good enough to justify not taking Martial Master out of the archetype triumvirate to keep access to these feats?

on an unrelated note, I want to marry a tiefling!

>>43607362
>using it to power a corpse without the balancing element of positive energy leads to severe corruption of a soul and forms of psychotic behavior
False. See: soulless undead (zombies, skeletons, etc.). There's no soul left to corrupt, you're literally just reanimating dead tissue. Soul's already gone elsewhere.

>>43607779
>4e/5e Tiefling
Gross, just as bad as Dreinei.

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>>43607807
I like all forms of tiefling.

>>43607730
>"It's okay to cross these wires and pull this piece out of the system, it won't damage anything." Except that's specifically what it does is take something that works, and purposefully breaks pieces of it apart to make things that should be dead act like they're alive with a whole bunch of side effects

Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth break the universe too by being unfathomable abominations who should not exist and do not play by the normal rules of the universe, yet they aren't evil. They're just chaotic neutral, amusingly.

Unless you want to argue that they aren't breaking the universe but rather are following some eldritch laws that we don't only not know but maybe can't know with our limited human minds, and that the universe is far more complicated and strange than we understand. But at that point, you're basically admitting we don't really understand how any of this works, so we shouldn't have any business with trying to argue that something should be aligned with whatever.

>>43607773
You are correct they changed that.

Nevertheless, there are damaging effects based on positive energy in the game - Positive Energy elementals explode doing damage, Positive Energy Charged Creatures do extra damage using it, and there are a couple of spells that use positive energy to damage targets.

>>43603211
>Hezodaemons
>death through wild animal attacks
>they appear as large cat-like beasts with dark fur and the head of an insect
>large claw wounds mark both their sides and their underbelly, dripping a thick purplish ooze
>this ooze acts as a powerful magical pheromone, allowing them to control the minds of those who smell it
>they automatically control animals, so do not get a will save against it, and so those of them who find themselves on the material plane will gather groups of Strong animal minions
>when they are in Abbadon, they like to travel in packs, hunting lost souls through the land's harsh jungles
>even though they have above average intellect, they still act like animals, so daemonic leaders sometimes keep them as both pets and advisors
thinking if these things should not be as fun as it is

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Skeleton%20Crew

I'm just going to leave this here.

It's a spell that creates undead.

It's also not given the evil descriptor.

Creating undead is therefore not necessarily evil.

>>43607822
They're also listed as specifically being things that go against the universal nature. Their very presence damages reality (see the Aura effects for their friends the Great Old Ones for examples).

>>43607838
>http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Skeleton%20Crew
See this loine here?
>Each skeleton can perform the duties of one crew member but has no other abilities. The created skeletons cannot speak, attack, or even defend themselves. The only orders they obey are ones pertaining to the operation of a ship.
These lines are explicitly NOT true when creation other types of undead.

In fact, Skeletons and Zombies are i herently evil, and have wisdom and charisma scores of 10, and can plan and act on impulses. those impulses are invariably evil because they;re evil. The Skeletal Crew have no capacity to do anything except crew a ship - they're hardly undead, more like an Unseen Servant made of bones.

>>43607822
It's not that thier placement is bizzare or not understandable. Azathoth has always existed at the center of the material realm, and is essentially a living garbage disposal for matter, essentially he's like the Material End compliment to Groetus's Cosmic End.
Yog Sothoth is just a massive sapient Multidimensional communications relay that answers to anyone willing to take a collect call. He is literally built into the substrate of dimensions.
It's just that mortals who try to access these cosmic subsystems get overwhelmed and go crazy.

Also thier inclusion into the setting was just a hamfisted method to get people interested and make it more kitchen sink by James Jacobs

>>43607602
>She fucking created them. She laid down how they function, or not, and the result is that they are evil in reflection of her.
Are you an eastern asian by any chance? She created a system and that's it. How people use it is up to them.
>positive energy tumors
You have me there
>Fiends are literally evil incarnate, Hitler was just a man who believed in some vile and nasty shit. Fiends represent evil in its truest forms. Whatever they advocate and push onto mortals furthers evil.
They're beings capable of free will. They typically are evil, but even they can turn to good(the succubus in Wrath of the Righteous). An exception to the rule, but it does mean they don't have to be 100% evil. Just as a demon can choose how to act, a person can choose what to use a weapon for, undead and necromancers can choose to what ends they use negative energy.
>>43607730
What happens to souls after death, doesn't impact the system as a whole as far as we know, not even the gods know what the system does and where it goes.

Looking through the great beyond the soul cycle looks like this
>soul is borne of postitive energy, gods don't know how or why
>soul moves on into mortal being
>shit happens
>mortal dies
>Pharasma sends them off to their plane, get nommed by fiends, boneyard
>soul becomes a petitioner
>some petitioners becomes and outsider
>others just kinda dissapear, they may have been absorbed by the plane or they may have ascended to a higher plane of existence, no one knows.
Deciding to say "fuck it, imma be a skeleton forever" doesn't impact the system in any meaningful way. Even if it does, this system doesn't really help or harm anyone except maybe the gods who lose out on manpower and denying fiends their happy snacks.

In any case, I deeply regret even bothering to argue this. I've wasted everyone's time and half the thread is fucking gone.

>>43607918
Fiends that change alignment still ping as evil though. They have the evil subtype, they are made of evil, no matter their actual alignment.

>>43607918
>Even if it does, this system doesn't really help or harm anyone except maybe the gods who lose out on manpower and denying fiends their happy snacks.
You mean, that if you subvert a system arranged to make the universe work in a certain way things happen than aren't intended and things that should happen don't? Say it ain't so.

>>43607902
Hey, I'm okay with anything that includes Call of Cthulhu.

>>43607879
They're animated by negative energy. They're created via a necromantic spell. They're undead. Undead set to a specific purpose, yes, but that's no different from just using Command/Control/Rebuke Undead on any other undead and binding those ones to perform a specific task.

>>43607918
>She created a system and that's it. How people use it is up to them.
She created the system and how the system works you dingleberry. It's hard for people to use it responsibly if its designed to be aweful.

Also a lot of your assumptions rely on the idea that Urgathoa is Nuetral, which is patently false.

Also the WotR example for Fiends doesn't work for your analysis, since she became good strictly through Desna meddling with her mind and dreams

>>43607843
It's kind of silly but the phrasing of your post makes it hard for me to tell if you're genuinely agreeing with me or if you're trying to be sarcastic but it's flying over my head. I think you're agreeing with me, though.

>>43607902
Ham-fisted or not (and I do agree with you on that), they exist in the setting and you have to either accept that and try to make it as internally consistent as possible or acknowledge that the setting just doesn't work and doesn't make sense, at which point you might as well move on from all discussions about what the most sensible way to handle alignment for undead is and just go with whatever feels right.

>>43607879
Not him, but also going to bring up...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dirge-bard

>Dance of the Dead (Su): At 10th level, a dirge bard can use his bardic performance to cause dead bones or bodies to rise up and move or fight at his command. This ability functions like animate dead, but the created skeletons or zombies remain fully animate only as long as the dirge bard continues the performance. Once it stops, any created undead collapse into carrion. Bodies or bones cannot be animated more than once using this ability. Unlike animate dead, dance of the dead requires no components and does not have the evil descriptor.

>does not have the evil descriptor

Creates full-out skeletons and zombies with negative energy and is explicitly not evil.

>>43607962
Reminder that James Jacobs claims Rovagug could beat Azathoth in a fight because Rovagug is capable of rational thought.

>>43607947
Actually, once the succubus in question fully changes alignment she no longer pings as evil. It did, however, require a goddess to literally mindrape her into going against her nature the first time, which started the ball rolling. She never would have done it otherwise.

>>43607516
You do realize Paizo has created an alternative to alignment in Unchained, right? You can optionally toss all of the good-evil business. If it rustles you so much, be done with it. You aren't going to recruit people or change Paizo's stance or Pathfinder's lore by complaining here.

>>43607947
Just interjecting on your discussion real quick, but this is basically the same sort of thing I was talking about with >>43607499 and >>43607672. It's part of the grounds that I developed the idea on, actually.

>>43607838
>>43607967
What's interesting about that spell.

One, not evil, suggesting that the process of creating undead by way of Raise dead is through an evil process not listed in its description.

Two, the skeletons have a very narrow set of actions they can perform, much like simplistic constructs.

Three, they don't count towards normal HD limit meaning they aren't functioning like normal undead but more like constructs. If you look at eh spell requirements for the Flesh golem, necromancy is required for it function.

Its unknown whether they fall apart at the end of the spell or go rogue, though it would make sense for them to fall apart. If they go rogue then they are still normal evil skeletons. It's just not an automatically evil act to create them.

>>43607387
I was the first one but not the second one.

>>43607967
Yes it is different. When the spell ends they disintigrate. they're not pe=rmanant, and they can't do anything but the reprogrammed "run ship routine" that the spell lists.

No other type of created undead can make that claim. Even "mindless" undead that are uncontrolled don't just sit there quietly. They have self awareness, and they have willpower. They go out and do the things that their base impulse demands of them. They commit evil, because that's what they are. These skeletons are specifically bound and controlled to NOT do anything except crew a ship, and they AREN'T permanent. That makes a huge difference.

>>43608026
>No other type of created undead can make that claim
See >>43607982

>>43608026
Juju zombies.

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>Undead Alignment argument
>mfw
If you guys are so booty bothered over it, why don't you just use a homebrew, or at least houseruled, system or game. This argument never goes anywhere, never gets resolved, because it ultimately relies on semantics.

>>43608036
Again, specific>general.

>>43608036
I'm not even sure you can count that as a "create undead spell".

>>43608052
>Alignment: Any evil.
Straight from the template for juju zombie

>>43608081
Because we have to do something to fill up the Pathfinder General and we'll be damned if we let that something be something productive.

>>43608081
The problem was that the one who started the argument uses Paizo's shitty Golarion. Undead in Golarion are explicitly evil.
Do I think it's stupid? Yes. But that's why I don't play in Golarion.

>>43608109
>>43608052
And I was too hasty in posting, the Juju Oracle uses Create Undead to make them and only them. So still an evil act, and the juju zombies are evil.

>>43608036
It doesn't state it uses negative energy for one (like the spell=/=as the spell), and it also has a number of caveats that prevent permanency and a host of other issues the create undead spells create (i.e. free willed undead that exist past the creators demise).

>>43608161
Actually it used be so you could create neutral undead with the Juju Oracle but Paizo "fixed" that.

>>43607499
No, you're just stupid.

>>43608108
Dance of the Dead explicitly functions identically to Animate Dead while the performance is going.

It's literally a create undead spell.

Speaking of objective morality, can outsiders change their alignment, or be created with different ones?
Could there theoretically be an evil marching or traveling hero devil?

>>43608215
Except it's not permanent. and only works once on any given set of bones and it functions "like the spell", not "as the spell", which means it isn't exactly like Animate Dead at all.

>>43608252
Created with different ones? No. Change it? Yes. So yes, you could theoretically have those things. You could theoretically have a good lich. You can't CREATE a good lich though.

>>43608271
It functions in all ways like the spell, except removing the evil keyword and adding a set duration.

it's still creating undead by infusing them with negative energy, ie they're still full undead, just not evil and crumble to dust when they stop getting their groove on.

>>43608252
Yes they can change alignment but will retain their alignment subtype unless a deity directly intervenes.
Thus a theoretically Chaotic Good Devil would still be affected by smite Evil and simliar effects due to irs Evil subtype.

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>>43608207

>>43608125
Personally, for the homebrew setting in making, I use three differing categories of Undead: Vestiges, True Undead, and False Undead.

Vestiges are natural, and exist as a sort of spiritual or mental imprint of an individual after they die. They are themselves not the real individual, but rather a copy that got imprinted to the area due to differing circumstances. However, overtime the copy usually starts to fade and unravel, gradually going crazy and might hurt people. On occasion, someone may petition the God of Death to create a rudimentary vestige after thier death, one that is often more of a recording than an actual mind (though depending on the circumstance he may allow it. He is NG in the setting) to be left after thier death. However it's not too common and often only happens after they die, since most people don't even know said God exists. examples of Vestiges are Ghosts. They do not possess the same weaknesses as standard Undead, though enough positive energy can affect them, though only in massive amounts

True Undead were created by an invasive entity from outside the cosmic order of the sensible universe, who creates Undead with only one purpose: to spread entropy and end the existence of reality. As such all True Undead generally leak out pure entropic Non-stuff and are driven to destruction and consumption of life and energy itself. Even if you didn't start evil, the pure malicious entropy energy being pumped directly into your by said mad God/entity will drive you bonkers anyway. Most Undead fall in this camp.

False Undead is a catchall for anything that often behaves as an Undead, but is neither a Vestige nor a True Undead. They can carry wildly in alignment and the effects they make, though the majority are Evil since they are often unique to certain evil Gods. They also don't often share the same weaknesses as true Undead. These include Vampires and Mummies.

As for the nature of souls and Knowledge of this stuff, its apocryphal.

>>43608125
The problem is that undead should be Evil, you are a shitposter, and there are too many people replying to shitposting.

I vote for ignoring any retards that claim 'you can make good zombies, you guys, creating killer omnicidal monsters is ok, you are jus thanatophobic cis scum that should check your privelege' and instead start discussion on something less retard.

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What would the property of an obscenely wealthy person look like in a Pathfinder world? Someone with access to the resources of a vast empire, and high-level casters.

Elite Romans built massive mansions, with extravagancies like salt water fishpools and heated bathhouses. Lucullus cultivated plants found during conquest, such as cherries and apricots, on his property. I'm wondering what people of such wealth would do in a Fantasy world.

>>43608337
Dude I am not the shitposter. I just say that in the setting I play in, which isn't Golarion, there are non-evil undead.

I even argued againt the Pharasma hate anon because undeath doesn't work the way he wants it to work in Golarion and thus he should either stop complaining or homebrew his own setting.

>>43608348
Imagine a massive castle, filled with the most inane magical items out there.
Stuff like infinite wine bottles, just stupid shit that you only buy if you're one of the 99.99%.

why don't we >>43603211
it was fun yesterday, and it's at least more productive then an argument with no answer

>>43608348
Own multiple demiplanes with all kindsa weird shit

>>43608348
Imagine Brhuce Hammar and his Railyard.
Multiply that by 50.
You have your answer

>>43608348
Define obscenely wealthy in relation to Pathfinder

Do you mean obscenely wealthy MUNDANE?

Or do you mean obscenely wealthy FULLCASTER?

>>43608348
Well, owning things isn't super risky, so if you want to be truly elite, you have to own creatures. Exotic, dangerous creatures. Think shit with high CR. Probably have anti-magic fields installed. Gladiator arenas for people to fight your precious pets. Possibly rooms with haunts, as well.

What's the most fun way to play an Arcanist? Not hyperoptimization, just what's the most fun one?

>>43608528
I like the Twilight Sage, the flavor for it is fun.

>>43608528
Are you saying you want us to tell you how you should have fun, anon?

>>43608553
No, I'm asking what other people find fun, because when I look at fullcasters it just looks... boring. It looks like it's just no real effort ever, and that the less-great stuff can't actually end up good even with optimization.

>>43608493
Both.

>>43608528
Spec into Counterspelling and grab the exploits that work with it. Cancel the enemy Wizards while your martials beat up the silly nerds

>>43605591

Confirmed best waifu:

1. Huldra
2. Kitsune
3. Half-Elves

Confirmed best husbandos:

1. Suli
2. Human
3. Half-Elf

>>43608606
>Hey I want to have fun with magic

>How about this build where you not only hardly get to cast spells of your own, but you even stop your enemies from casting, reducing the whole battlefield to something completely mundane

>>43608620
>no div Aghash

>>43608596
A mundane might have a sprawling mansion and a decent number of magical items around, with some unnecessary richness to it.

A magical guy has a literal series of demiplanes devoted to a room each, made of solid gold, diamonds, adamantine, and all sorts of other ridiculous shit, populated with Efreeti butlers and literally almost anything you can think of because the second you pass into anything close to "obscenely wealthy" you enter Wish Economy territory, and the game effectively ends right then.

>>43608630
It's only boring if you don't allow PoW.

You do allow PoW, right? Plus there's something fun about waggling your finger at the enemy Casters and saying " ah, ah, ah, not in my house"

>>43608620

Replace Half-Elf under husbando with "Satyr" and it's perfect.

Waifus are good though, Huldra confirmed best wives.

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>>43608620
>Confirmed best husbandos
The male Lashunta would like to have a word with you.

>>43608636
Funfact: there's fanart, and maybe smut, of them on deviantart

>>43608663
I just looked it up, I think there's only one piece
I'll check again

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>>43608638
>A magical guy has a literal series of demiplanes devoted to a room each, made of solid gold, diamonds, adamantine, and all sorts of other ridiculous shit, populated with Efreeti butlers and literally almost anything you can think of because the second you pass into anything close to "obscenely wealthy" you enter Wish Economy territory, and the game effectively ends right then.

Anon that is not how proper wealth works, your magical user is a man of learning and reason, not some prepubescent brat with an infinite supply of power and vague notions of value.

Also gold, diamonds and adamantine make terrible building materials, a good marble floor is better on the eyes (and feet) than gold or gemstones.

>>43608701
tell that to rich guy

>>43607709
What's wrong with Bloodforge?

>>43608719
Not that anon but Bloodforge is pretty great.
Except for the art brrrr

>>43608701
It's a wizard with, and I quote, "Obscene wealth"

He literally does not, ever, in any way, care. He has more gold than you could possibly ever have in ten thousand lifetimes. He has a constant stream of chain-bound Efreet's that give him what is the closest that you can get to literal infinite wealth.

>>43608662
Seriously, how does anyone at Paizo see that and go "hmm, yep, he's a short, stocky, and ugly dude"?

>>43608638
The realm I'm mostly looking at is mostly mundane wealthy people (the state's elite) who have access to high-level casters. Like Romans who have wizards running around.

>>43608765
Because Paizo is SJWs who think that even that fat fucking cow of a Muse is beautiful and perfect, yet any man who isn't a trappish fucboi is an ugly piece of shit rapist.

>>43608680
it doesn't always have the name, but there are at least a few by imric

>>43608680
there is, in fact, only one price of true fan art/smut
hopefully that will soon change

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>>43606103
The cleric is more of a back-line fighter, so if you want to do any damage you'll have to create a front-line for yourself.

Might I recommend necromancy?

>>43608778
Then yeah, huge sprawling estates, statues, gardens, plantations, mines, all sorts of shit.

>>43608786
Fat cow of a muse? Context please?

>>43608827
Beastiary 5 image

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>>43608827
>This beautiful woman moves with impossible grace, a knowing smile on her lips.

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>Eldritch Scion is now an alternative class to the Magus, instead of an Archetype
>a few previously incompatible archetypes can now be used with the new alternate class
>spellcasting and eldritch pool all remain about the same, but the class has 4+INT skills instead of 2+INT
>The eldritch pool can no longer be used to enter a mystical trance, and you don't use bloodrager bloodlines, and you can use spell combat normally
>you gain your own set of bloodlines that function more like a sorcerer's
>somewhere in here is eschew materials, fuck if I know where
>some other stuff is triggered to keep this from being a straight upgrade, and you get some unique arcana

>>43608778
>>43608808

I think the character you guys are looking for is "Trimalchio."

Trimalchio was the Roman stereotype of an obscenely wealthy character.

>>43608857
>>43608827

To put this into context.

>Muse
>29 Charisma

>Succubus
>27 Charisma

>Nymph
>25 Charisma

>>43608857
That looks fucking ridiculous.

>>43608881
Charisma isn't looks, mang

>>43608857
>>43608881
Jesus fucking Christ, that should be an aberration, not a fae.

>>43608808
That's a bit of an anti-climax. Their wealth and power needs to be apparent to the players, and that means magic.

>>43608920
>Their wealth and power needs to be apparent to the players, and that means magic.

>Huge estates are not an apparent sign of wealth

>>43608857
>that face
They really should have gotten a different artist for it, that face is atrocious

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>>43608857

>>43608932
If by face, you mean EVERYTHING, then yeah.

>>43608930
Wealth, yes. Power, no. Plus, wealth takes on a different meaning where you buy magical swords for the sort of money a lvl1 Commoner will only see in his dreams.

>>43608857
"It's not over 'till the fat lady sings", I suppose.

>>43608857
Jesus Christ, I'm all for chubby loving but what the fuck happened to her face and her hand? It's kind of terrifying.

>>43608899

Charisma has always been closely associated with looks, anon.

It shouldn't be, but there's a reason the vast majority of Pathfinder official appearances for high-Cha characters are attractive or very "large and in charge."

It doesn't help that races with +2 to Charisma are almost always referred to as "charming" or "attractive."

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>>43608895
>>43608932
>>43608946
>>43608910
>triggered

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>>43608976
>but what the fuck happened to her face and her hand?

Anon... That's actually what really large women (the kind that have double+ chins, like The Muse) look like when they sing.

>>43608857
>This beautiful, woman...
you forgot a comma

>>43608976
Fat-acceptance and SJWs.

>>43608999
Reminder that this fat'quirky' guy makes some of the worst content we've ever seen in Pathfinder.

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>>43608857

>23 Int
>14 Wis

NO

A MUSE IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE LOTS OF WISDOM TO REFLECT THEIR INNER REFLECTION AND POISE.

>>43608857
>honey booboo in PF

>>43609052
>Even the epitome of beauty is witless and easily-manipulated in JJ's world

>>43609067
If JJ wants to dominate THAT then I worry for the state of his mind.

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>>43609052
>>43609067

Don't worry guys, "muse" has always been associated with towering intellect and raw calculative power, just look at it's definition.

>>43608857
Come on JJ, do the sjws have your balls in a vice? What were you thinking with this?

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>>43608857
How fast must one be running away from reality to be able to call that anything but soul-shreddingly hideous?

I remember girls of that caliber in highschool, they used to pretend all the hot and average girls were beasts that couldn't even come close to their "natural curves and beauty".

>When attacking with the Fiend's Grip, the fiendbound marauder may apply any material properties of any one gauntlet or spiked gauntlet he is wearing, as well as any enhancement bonus or magical properties that it may also possess.

Does this mean that I can apply the enhancement bonus of one gauntlet to multiple fiend's grips or do I need multiple magic weapons? And since it explicitly mentions magic properties, I couldn't apply the mundane weapon enhancements from steelforge correct?

>>43609085
It's not that he wants to dominate them anon. Remember, he's the one playing all those characters, he wants to see his characters dominated, not be the dom himself.

>>43608857
So is this JJ or Bhulman's fault? Or can we safely point to Crystal or Price

>>43609115
>How fast must one be running away from reality to be able to call that anything but soul-shreddingly hideous?

>Implying people living in the Great Pacific Northwest Bubble needs to run away from anything

>>43609142
Oh shit I remember his bard. Yeah JJ is a weird.

>>43608252
Yes. There is a Succubus in the Wrath of the Righteous AP seeking redemption. But she needs divine intervention to fundamentally change what she is.

>>43609154
>implying any of them can run

Also captcha just gave me a word type puzzle. Sign of good times ahead?

>>43609142
>Oh, No. My Bard. Zhe is completely at the mercy of your Barbariwoman's Psychic powers now. What will you to do zher, Crystal?

...
I'm reminded of something now....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkLqAlIETkA

>>43609124
It was made before them, and those'd probably fall under material properties.

>>43609142

+3 WILL SAVE
3

W
I
L
L

S
A
V
E

>>43609225
You know, for however much you guys shitpost about it, JJ's actually not an SJW. Most of that part of the setting is other people or him getting pressured into it.

If you look at what he himself has written, he's actually done the most violent and sexual stuff; he wrote the ogres of the setting, he wrote several of the lewder aspects of the various gods and deities, and he wrote that the one chick in Belkzen has like 30 kids over the course of 40 years. Dude's a ridiculously-obvious sexual That Guy, but he's been stuck with SJW That Guys in recent years.

>>43608861
So it's a spontaneous magus with a couple of changes here and there? Because spontaneous casting perhaps benefits the magus most because MORE SHOCKING GRASP

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>>43609287
So what you're saying is, at Paizo he's on bottom and Pierce/Crystal gets top? So it ends up into a massive orgy of That Guy while Mark and the editing staff just look through the window with horrified looks on thier faces?

>>43609361
I don't think JJ wants to be on the bottom honestly. He seems to me like the kind of person that enjoys a more solo venture yes I'm implying he faps to his own smut of his characters getting dominated, doesn't everybody?, but got stuck with the SJW-crew of Crystal and Pierce. He looks horrified towards Mark and the others, begging for assistance, and they merely shake their heads and continue to create Adamantine Crowbars and Hell's Vengeance.

Daily reminder to abandon /pfg/ threads once anyone starts mentioning the paizodevs and it turns into a manbaby echochamber of tired jokes about them

>>43609442
>manbaby
ageist and sexist, your/their kind(s) is/was/are/were/? not welcome in here

Sorry if I got the wording wrong, I just want to avoid offending any trans-dimension travelers who operate on different time scales and/or levels of consciousness.

>>43609442
>echochamber
Oh hai buildposter.

>>43609317
Basically. It's pretty shitty the way it is right now, and even if spontaneous casting is better for the magus, metamagic fucks with spontaneous casting. Plus, prepared casting is still technically better overall.

Also consider for the alternative class:
>an archetype that lets you gain the arcana of whatever sorcerer bloodline-alike you picked
>a Tattooed sorcerer-alike bloodline, since tattoo familiars are rad as fuck
>Kensai: Even More Weaboo Edition

>>43609537
>metamagic fucks with spontaneous casting. Plus, prepared casting is still technically better overall.
Yeah true enough, on top of that pearls of power only work on prepared casters, meaning a magus can't just forge 6,000,000 of them and never run out of shocking grasp ever.

>>43608861
I've actually been working on converting the Magus Class to Spheres, as well as all of the archetypes. I've finished most of it, but its still WIP since its hard to get some archetypes when you don't have internet when your at home

>>43609642
The Magus already got converted into Spheres though (although the archetypes haven't yet). It's in the Expanded Material PDF.

>>43609196
>succubus
of course it was a succubus
it's never anything actually fiendish looking, is it

>>43609669
That's was a Spheres Archetype, and all of those are meant to be compatible with the base system with minimal change or alteration to the base system and classes themselves.

My massively raging autism, however, felt it wasn't enough so I started reworking them all from scratch, as well as some other sphere classes, like nerfing Incanter or dropping the Sphere Druid and Cleric down to low BAB so that the Warpriest can actually serve a functional purpose.

Once again this was driven by pure, literal autism, and is probably not for everyone, or even anyone.

>>43609826

The alternatives make poor waifus.

>>43609914
I was actually tempted to call it a well hidden magical realm, but I.m not that stupid/pessimistic

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>>43609880
Don't worry, I understand the autistic desire to revamp classes.

>>43609939

>Well hidden

Anon...

The book outright says one of the things that can redeem Arueshalae is her falling in love with a mortal (and the mortal returning said love.) It also says that she's *desperate* for love and affection, romance being something unknown to her since her inception as a succubus.

Hell, it even states she intentionally holds back on displaying signs of physical affection (read: hot freaky redeemed succubus sex) because so much as a kiss in the throes of passion could suck out her lover's soul and damn her forever.

>>43610029
>because so much as a kiss in the throes of passion could suck out her lover's soul and damn her forever.
What about hand holding?

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>>43610029
jesus
If the writer wanted to fuck a succubus so bad why wait for it to be LG

>>43610048
She's not LG, she's CG.

Now, an LG Upasunda, that's a waifu I can get behind.

>>43610046

Hand holding is completely fine, expect a lot of it before she's completely redeemed.

She's still got the tail, too. So yeah, watch out for that.

>>43610048

She's Chaotic Neutral when you meet her, and become Chaotic Good when redeemed.

She's actually a good character from what I've seen, and her bow (The Starbow) is one of the coolest unique magical items out there.

>>43610082
Want a redeemed demonic waifu? Just talk to your local 20th level Alchemist and it can be yours! Just make sure you're there to console them after their crisis of faith.

>>43609957
Would you like to see the fruit of my autism?

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>>43610048
To be perfectly fair, purification is my goddamn magical realm. Nothing gets me hotter than a succubus in practical attire living a life of virtue.

In retrospect, I might be a bit weird.

>>43610153
Muh Brutha!

>>43610148
Sure, I'd love to.

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>>43610153
>mfw there's actually stuff for this exact fetish.

>>43610186

>Succubuses have virginity
>Succubuses who lose their virginity to a human must remain with the human

This seems awfully inconvenient.

>>43610186
I'll be in my bunk

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>>43610153
>purification is my goddamn magical realm. Nothing gets me hotter than a succubus in practical attire living a life of virtue.

They're not *that* practical, anon.

Still a lot more modest than the getup she was probably wearing while a proper sluttubus.

And she's still got them wings for those full-body hugs.

>>43610212
Not quite, the succubus' power was guarded by her virginity so all anal all the time. The summoning contract was done incorrectly on accident, so instead of a servant contract it was a marriage contract.

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>>43610173
Here. Beware, for it is heavily un-proofread and full of much weird wording and autism

>>43610186
Holy hell muh dick. and its so easy to find with google too. Thanks mate

>>43610186
This tickles my marriage fetish

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>>43610251

>could develop a relationship with her that's as strong and enduring as any the wounded world has ever known
>mfw you could grab the "immortal" mythic ability and live with your waifu forever.

>>43607971
Many inventions we use today were originally intended to help with war, to kill more efficiently.Just because it was intended to do something or be a certain way doesn't mean it MUST be a certain way.

>>43610362
Don't start this shit again, we had just ended all the retarded bickering

>>43610336
Hey /pfg/, how would you go about achieving divinity, either major or minor? All 3pp AND 3.5ed is allowed because my DM wanted to merge campaign worlds

>>43610447
>>43610336
Didn't mean to link that

>>43610259
>>43610173
So, thoughts?

>>43610447
Mythic already allows you to be able to grant Cleric spells to followers

>>43610470
Looks good to me, though like you said the phrasing could probably do with a bit of polish.

>>43610447
Divine Source

>>43610524
How was Skirnir, Myrmidarch, and Soul Forger? I'm the most nervous so far about those since they seemed in most need of overhauling

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>>43605548
So, Gareth or DSP people about?
Piercing Thunder, reading over it, it only seems to give feats that a person two handing with a shield and spear would already take, meaning they tend to be pointless.
Pikeman's Training, TWF and the like make it pointless. It is a very bland discipline. And has actually made me favor the shield over the spear in my spear+shield build, luckily Iron Tortoise is extremely solid.

>>43610630
I'm about. Although I'm not really understanding what you're trying to say.

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>>43610630
whoops, two weapon fighting, not two handed
but yeah, this is actually with a Myrmidon fighter, many instances of advanced study being taken( at levels 13,15,17)
Broken blade, iron tortoise, piercing thunder(which is a bit disappointing) and thrashing dragon(thinking about switching this out for something else, perhaps primal fury).

>>43610555
Skirnir looks good, the ability to use spell combat with a shield makes it a lot better than the default archetype
You may want to look into converting eldritch archer rather than myrmidarch, since eldritch archer isn't innately bad.

>Diminished Spell Casting: The soul forger does not gain this ability.
This wording strikes me as unnecessary, as these are meant to be replacements for archetypes and not overlays, correct? This was also present on the myrmidarch.

Otherwise everything seems fine to me, though you may want to get a second opinion from someone with deeper familiarity with SoP than me.

>>43610701
Is there time, or even a plan to look over the powe disciplines, since it is a bland one, in what seems like a great selection, riven hourglass, elemental flux, shattered mirror, great disciplines.
But it seems to be lacking

>>43610701
I think he is basically saying Piercing Thunder is rather lacklustre.

>>43610630
>>43610701

I kind of agree with the anon there. A lot of piercing thunder feels very mundane mundane - Iron Tortoise is nonmagical but it lets you do cool stuff like ricochet your shield, or swing it around and smash away enemies, or even directly draw aggro.

Piercing thunder has a number of cool things but a lot of it flavorwise doesn't feel like what a normal spear user could do without piercing thunder.
>You can charge, except in a more efficient and damaging way
>You can trip with your weapon, except just a bit faster
>You stab people and do more damage

Especially at levels 1 and 2 the maneuvers are really bland, much moreso than the level 1 and 2 maneuvers of other non-supernatural disciplines.

I do like the TWF spear stance though, that one's great, though it has the problem of
>Either you permanently stay in this stance or never touch it because it requires you heavily change your equipment and fighting style

>>43610803
Saying it's lackluster or bland I got. What I'm not understanding is the other part about the discipline only providing feats you'd already take.

>>43610789
I did a conversion of Eldritch Archer a while ago.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jvj0fMsqlZHYzU1-py5H3hDrCTQtNY3Gads0ZhISWnA/edit

>>43610828
Elric, are Soul knife mind bolts discipline weapons for disciplines with Thrown on their weapon groups? Similarly, do they not provoke AoO with a Cirque de La Fumee member?

>>43606001
No, get a Falcata or Katana instead.

Bastard Sword is useless now. The extra damage dice is less preferable to increased crit range or multiplier.

>>43610828
two weapon fighting, pikeman's training, etc

>>43610789
Well, I did the "does not gain" thing since every other aspect of any archetype not mentioned remains unchanged, and I wanted to eliminate confusion about certain changes to the archetypes and how they would interact with the old abilities.

Also I do plan on working Eldritch Archer, but I did the Myrmidarch as well since I figured he would work like a magical switch-hitter. Someone who fights in an army of soldiers wielding trident and javelin to aid the rest of the Phalanx with versital arcane support.

>>43610828

Hey Elric, completely unrelated psionics question:
When exactly can you use Psychoportive Talent?

>You can expend your psionic focus as an immediate action to make a five-foot step. You may do this even if you have already moved in the round in question, although not if you have already taken a five-foot step, and doing so does not prevent further movement in this round.

There are two different things that could use clarifying here.
1) Could you use it as an immediate action before an attack lands to outright automatically dodge a melee attack? Can this cancel out full attacks if the enemy's already 5ft stepped, since they're locked into attacking and can't move to reach you any more?

2) I'm confused about the 'not if you have already taken a five-foot step' bit. If you take a 5ft step during your turn, when is the earliest you could next use Psychoportive Talent?
Can you do it right after your turn ends, since as an immediate action you're taking the swift action from your next turn? Or are you unable to use it until after your next turn the round after, assuming you don't 5ft step then?

>>43608662
Almost nobody allows PoW or any DSP nowadays, I find.

>>43608946
Does she have webbed fingers what the fuck?

I want to play a psychic armory.
is allowing rapid shot or many shot with it wrong?
having psychic thrown weapons is weird.

>>43610808
Piercing Thunder /is/ a mundane discipline. It's a discipline about charging, leaping around and using spears and polearms. It's designed to work with existing options for polearms and expand on them. The stances that provide benefits you'd already get from feats are also /better/ than just using the feat because they have additional effects on top of the base feat effect, there are maneuvers that allow you to make AoE attacks, there's knockdowns, throws and status debuffs scattered throughout the discipline. It has quite a bit going on in it if you look.

>>43610870
Sorry but I don't really have an answer for you right now. ErrantX isn't online today and as far as I can tell it's a rules hole that will need to be discussed. I'll come back with answers when I have them.

>>43610883
Are you talking about the stances? Listing a feat and a stance and going "etc." isn't really helping me understand the issue.

>>43610947
no no
she is just extremely fat
and ugly
and has insanely high cha, and described as beautiful

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>>43609010

>>43610883
Taking two weapon fighting isn't invalidated by the Piercing Thunder stance - it in fact gives you extra benefits if you did take the TWF feat.

The shield stance gives you a nice +1d6 flat damage on all your attacks, and I also see it as a nice 'crutch' you can keep up while you get other feats first so you don't need to rush getting Pikeman's Training.

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hey /pfg/, i made this new character (a human Arcanist) and, since i'm a delusional wannabe min-maxer with some weird fetishes, made her "human" specifying in the background how she's short, with wide hips and generally... dwarfish. I can't, for the love of god, make my character an actual dwarf mechanically wise, so i'm looking for art, for a female dwarf magician. There isn't a lot, sadly, even in the Warcraft TCG femdwarfs are ridiculized. Got anything for me, /pfg/?

>>43610941
Lashunta are Paizo you retard.

>>43610938
>1) Could you use it as an immediate action before an attack lands to outright automatically dodge a melee attack? Can this cancel out full attacks if the enemy's already 5ft stepped, since they're locked into attacking and can't move to reach you any more?

Immediate actions can be taken at any time. So yes.

>2) I'm confused about the 'not if you have already taken a five-foot step' bit. If you take a 5ft step during your turn, when is the earliest you could next use Psychoportive Talent?
Can you do it right after your turn ends, since as an immediate action you're taking the swift action from your next turn? Or are you unable to use it until after your next turn the round after, assuming you don't 5ft step then?

A round is the time between when the creature with the highest initiative result begins their action, and the time when the creature with the lowest initiative result ends their turn. So when you can use Psychoportive Talent again depends on your place in the initiative order and whether or not you've taken a 5 ft. step during the round.

Aegis class. I hear that there are 2 or 3 books that all have content for it? Is this true? Or is there a single book that is the go-to for the class?

>>43611074
Base stuff for Aegis:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis

Akashic Stuff for Aegis:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7i7aqqibmfb8pgz/Akashic%20Archetypes.pdf

Path of War: Expanded Stuff for Aegis:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit?usp=sharing

>>43611006
Thanks, that makes sense... I think.
Though it does create the odd situation where it's advantageous to roll lower initiative then everyone else, since your 5ft step 'refreshes' before more enemies take their next turn.

Just to be perfectly sure, if you 5ft step as an immediate action with that trait before your turn in the round, that stops you from taking another one during your turn but doesn't prevent you from moving with a move action, right?

>>43611144
Correct.

>>43611137
Thank you, I appreciate it.

Not quite what I meant, though. Let me rephrase: there's Psionics Unleashed, Ultimate Psionics, and I think one more. And they all supposedly have content for the Aegis, and some of the stuff isn't on the SRD (mostly customizations). So which book do I get?

>>43611200
Ultimate Psionics.

>>43611222
Ah, excellent. Thank you, sir.

>>43611200
Ultimate Psionics is a collection of all the other stuff.
You only need that one, besides Akashic/PoW.

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>>43610951
Could use some tweaking here and there.

The stances can't co-exist whereas the feats can, which means the opportunity cost is far greater. In most cases it's more advantageous to just take pikeman's training and use black seraph's glare or the like than use phalanx stance.
I really do like Iron Pikeman's stance but endurance? Outside of specifically environment based games, I don't want it even if it is for free, because it feels like this was put in place instead of something actually desirable.

The charge attacks are okay, but vanilla as fuck even by mundane standards and in my experiences a polearm is used for zoning and to cover the first ranks or to cover the squishier characters. The flat damage bonuses aren't even particularly powerful.

The throws? Good on paper, somewhat interesting, but suffer from the same issues as the dragon fang maneuver line: Very few people want to lose their weapon for only a small boost in damage.

The knockdown is okay, but I feel like we're missing out on stuff like impaling grapples, pins, etc. Solar wind gets a level 6 pinning maneuver, it wouldn't be unheard of to give the spearmen a way to pin targets with their spears, or perhaps give a thrown spear a harpoon effect?

The touch attack maneuver at level 2? Fantastic.

Piercing rank maneuvers?
Most of the things you fight at that level aren't in rank, they're large-colossal sized monstrosities that your reach won't even cause an exit wound on. Unless you're going to allow multiple hits on large targets, you're not going to get much use out of such maneuvers.

Piercing thunder is the mundane answer to Unquiet Grave: I want to love it but it just feels lacking in a lot of places.

You did say that you guys were intending to move away from +damage maneuvers and towards carrier effects, but piercing thunder is mostly just +damage and a few trips.

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>>43611246
Multi-hit Pierces on bigass targets would be fucking badass.

Like how you want to use Pierce shells on the really long monsters in Monster Hunter.

>>43611246
What's bad about Unquiet Grave? Was one of the main reasons I bouth Lords of the Night.

>>43610978
Oops, I misquoted you. I was referring to:

>>43608651