According to Mark Rosewater, only one of these cards works

>>43467398
maro is a bitch ass nigga and needs to let MTG break the mold.

MaRo is a sack of shit who coddles blue and lets them break the pie all the time, despite him saying blue is too strong

>>43467398
>adding a bunch of retarded lol multiplayer cards
>omg these retarded cards are too broken!
Jesus fucking christ

>>43467398
"/tg/ was a mistake."
- Mark Rosewater

>>43467672
Mirror Match is blue trick that requires opponent playing into it, like Turn to Frog and Aetherspouts. Ezuri's Predation is a green mass creature removal.

>>43467429
Nah senpai, the only thing maro is doing right is keeping magics colors within their respective wheel houses

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>>43467398
>6 CMC, 2 Colored Symbols
>Instant Speed
>Potentially blows out an opponent, but still vulnerable to pump, indestrucibility, and whatnot
Nothing unusual here, carry on my best child. My shining star
>8 CMC, 3 Colored symbols
>Sorcery Speed
>Potentially blows out an opponent but still vulnerable to larger creatures, pump, indestrucibility, and whatnot
WOAHWOAHWOAH! What the fuck are you up to, Green!? What gives you the right to interact with the board this way? How dare you? I'm going to have to keep a closer eye on you to make sure you don't do this ever again. You make me sick.

neither of them will kill a siege rhino, so what's it matter?

>>43468495
you forgot

>Also copies ETB effects any creatures your opponent is attacking with

Meanwhile Green has the audacity to Summon beast tokens and make them fight things, at sorcery speed no less!

>>43468579
Blue has had clone effects since alpha.

>>43468713
which means?

In my casual eyes, Mirror Match feel white while Ezuri's Predation feel green

>>43468448
8 mana triple green sounds like a pretty reasonable value for "fight every creature your opponent controls"

>>43468759
Getting ETB effects is not outside blue's share of the pie.

>>43467398
>Instant speed Clone
>Making 4/4 Beasts and Fighting
They both seem fine, color pie wise.

>>43468796
Power level =/= colour pie

>>43467398
my money's on the Blue one

>>43468789
If Mirror Match was white, it would have a CMC of at least 7 or 8, be a sorcery and gives all creatures lifelink.

>>43468816
Fighting and tokens are not outside of Greens as well. So no problems.

>>43468448
Summoning beasts and fighting creatures is outside Green's pie?

>Fog+Mass Removal
yeah that seems real blue senpai-kun

>>43468868
In this case the effect is essentially a Languish though.

Return target creature to it's owners hand, the owner casts that creature immediately, then counter that spell. Would you consider this as a monoblue card?

>>43468910
>ummoning beasts and fighting creatures is outside Green's pie?
No those ale fine. The problem is scaling of spell "power" to match the opponents, or generally "wipe" effect that isn't Enchantments or Artifacts - that's not a Green thing at all. That's a Blue thing you might see in White or Black ocassionally.

>>43468938
>>43468448
Well, both are indirectly given an ability that are not inside of their color by using their own color normal abilities

>>43468910
The blue card is really conditional though, as blue combat tricks usually are. Your opponent needs to attack you while you hold six mana open. And whoever attacks a player with six mana open in EDH and does not expect some trickery probably browses /tg/.

>>43468994
>Wipe effects
>4/4s
Big threats will live.

>>43468938
mirror match is basically a narrower wave of reckoning.

>>43468994
>That's a Blue thing
straight up killing dudes is not a blue thing

blue bounces, blue counters, blue slaps restrictions and/or limitations, blue don't kill all even p/t attackers

>>43469027
Big threats will live through Mutilate and I don't think anyone would argue Mutilate is not wipe effect.

>>43469040
Remember! EVERYTHING IS A BLUE THING LOL

>>43469076
oh fug I forgot

thanks maro:DD

>>43469076

>pongify

>rapid hybridization

Blue ruins everything.

>>43467398
Mirror Match should be white, Enuri's should be red.

according to mark rosewater, both of these cards work within the color pie
that's the entire fucking point you retarded mongoloid

As a Simic Player, I'm fine with both.

>>43469326
Predation, Forbidden Orchard, Intruder Alert ?

Color pie should work differently in commander anyway due to the restrictions on color identity

>>43467398

MaRo is what we experts call "a huge fucking faggot" and has absurd double standards that favor blue. He's on record for saying Pongify is perfectly fine because its flavor excuses breaking the pie, and Song of the Dryads is not, because flavor cannot be used as an excuse for breaking the pie.

>>43469420
>play a format with restrictions
>"There should be cards that even out the restrictions! Every color should be the same!"

>>43469269
No he said on tumblr that the green one is a color pie break and he doesn't like it.

>>43469550
that's reasonable, though. the blue one is obviously fine - it is the green one that is questionable.

>>43469550

But Fight and summoning multiple creatures with a single card IS green mechanics.

What single part of it isn't green?

>>43469269
A red card that can take control over a permanent and then immediately sacrificing it would also work in the color pie. Same with blue exiling creatures, giving tokens, and then bouncing everything. It all works in the color pie, right? This is all fine.

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>>43469443
I agree with him on those, though. Pongify changes threats into different threats, and transmutation is fine in blue. Has been since pic related and possibly earlier. Removing a creature without using one's own creatures is not part of green's pie, though, so Song of the Dryads is not kosher.

I disagree with him on OP though. The green one is fine.

>>43469584
From Maro's blog:
>Your opponent has been playing creatures nonstop all game. You’ve played none. One Green spell shouldn’t eradicate all the creatures. That’s specifically supposed to be a problem for Green.

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>>43467819

>>43469662
Saved for future uses.

>>43469584
>But Fight and summoning multiple creatures with a single card IS green mechanics.
Yes.
>What single part of it isn't green?
The fact that this "multiple" depends on board state of the OTHER players. Green is least interactive color - making tokens equal to the number of lands you control, your live total, X you pay, etc. is fine and perfectly Green. This is not.

>>43469646
So according to Maro, casting Genesis Wave and finding a bunch of Foe-Razer Regents is out of pie for green.

>>43469646
>You've been playing permanents nonstop all game
>The mono blue player has played none
>one overloaded blue instant undoes all your work.

>>43469717
>two different cards vs. one card

You are bad at arguing against straw men.

>>43469717
wat

>>43469717
>reverberate is out of red's color pie because you can copy rampant growth or blue sun's zenith with it

Are you literally retarded?

>>43469734
>That's not a problem for blue, that's its part of the colour pie :^)

>>43469646
Also, where does it fucking say you can't cast Ezuri's Predation unless you control no
creatures?

I thought it was established fact that Blue has always been and always will be the most powerful color, and has been that way for literal decades?

Counterspells in a game where playing creatures is done by spells, and therefore you can use a counterspell as removal in addition to stopping instants/sorceries, is obviously an inherent advantage

Someone spends their turn summoning 10 mana bighuge fuckhead, you counterspell it and kill them, or let them waste their turn and then bounce it to swing, or give everything flying and go around it

That's WHY formats in MTG exist, because if it was just a competition to see which color was better blue wins out the starting gate. Meanwhile Red gets bolt and haste and first strike and that's literally it

Counterspells are stupid arbitrary win-harder when you get them in quality and quantity that Blue does, the fact doom blade is often worse removal than a simple counterspell says a lot.

>>43467398
Shit, I took a break from Magic around when Theros came out and this is what they're printing now? Did I miss something important?

I stopped because I got sick of tokens everywhere, I hate tokens. Should I just stay quit since tokens seem to be what the game s all about now?

>>43469990
Look up splinter twin

Short answer yes, tokens and emblems and shit are all stupid strong

>>43470006
Is there anything like magic but less logistics? Like you use actual cards for everything and don't carry around a billion dice or card inserts from packs or whatever the hell people use for tokens now?

Do new card games even get made or do they all go straight to cellphones and shit?

>>43470067
Card games nowadays don't print, they just go straight digital like Hearthstone.

If they try to play in the paper space, they just fold to Magic. It's the WoW of TCGs.

>>43468448
>both accomplish the same out of color goal
>both means to that end are in theme and in color
>blue is the only one that's okay
why?

>>43470129
because blue having an answer for everything is fine.

>>43470129
Being better than everyone else is literally part of blue's color identity.

I've always fucking hated when maro talks about the color pie and how every color has things they just CAN'T do

I believe every color should be allowed to do anything, in their own manner. Green board wipe? if it's spamming fight club tokens then fine. red card draw? looting and exile-cast-until-eot is fine. Black artifact destruction? pay life, mana, and sac a permanent sounds fine, black can do anything at a cost.

then fucking maro comes around with his nasaly lisp voice and says NO NO NO THE COLOR PIE IS SACRED HOW DARE YOU SINNERS COMMIT SUCH BLASPHEMY WITH *MY* GAME!

Maro thinks Red should get more cards with reach because Red "hates flying." Fuck Maro's opinion half the time.

>>43469990
Nigga, tokens have been part of the game for 20 goddamn years. They predate cumulative upkeep. They predate names for half the goddamn keywords. They basically predate the color pie.

Token decks were viable in tournies over 16 years ago.

I mean, what the hell?

>>43470239
>Red "hates flying."
What, seriously? What does their dragons do? Swim?

>>43470224
The most annoying thing is when they try and claim breaking the color pie and doing weird things is Blue's slice of the pie. It prevents other colors from getting cool new stuff that would fit better in their color.

>>43470239
>>43470392
He probably means that out of White, Blue, Black, and Red, Red gets flying the least often, and its usually on rare creatures like Dragons and Phoenixes. In that way, it makes some sense to give Red more reach so it can deal with flyers outside of its stronger creatures or burn spells.

That said, Reach is a purely defensive mechanic as well, which makes it a bit odd to include. It's not like Red is forbidden from having defensive creatures though.

>>43470340
Yeah, but I used be able to draft and not need a billion tokens. Then that new Ravnica block came along and, like, every green and white card, as well as a bunch of the black ones, made shitloads of tokens. I tried switching to Constructed and just playing a deck with no tokens, making a token-less R/U Delver of Secrets deck. turns out nearly everyone at both the stores in my city was playing G/W tokens with that wurm that makes a copy of himself when he comes into paly and crap like that. And shitloads of cards that let you clone the tokens. I got sick of it. Fuck tokens.

It used to be, tokens were a jokes, like those squirrel decks in Odyssey or Saproling decks, but then they got too good and it wasn't funny anymore. Just like what they did to Goblins in Onslaught. Used to be funny, but now they're too overpowered to be funny.

>>43470518
are you retarded

>>43470105
>It's the WoW of TCGs.
Except that player numbers are going up, not down.

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>>43468818
Not according to MaRo.

According to MaRo, green is only allowed to use creatures to deal with other creatures. Noncreature spells that cause creatures to fight other creatures are okay. Noncreature spells that creatures are okay. Noncreature spells that create creatures that fight other creatures are not okay, because it does not rely on any resources other than those created by the spell. The spell is self-sufficient rather than creature-reliant, making it non-green. It is a green noncreature spell that deals with creatures without utilizing existing creatures, therefore making it an abomination in the eyes of the color pie.

>>43470596

Are MTG player numbers increasing? Source me on that if you have it handy.

>>43470392
>>43470448
green hates flying. it has the least flying creatures by far, red is most definitely second to last in that regard. green gets "destroy target flying creature" or "deal x damage to every flying creature" effects which would be effects that are completely out of its color pie if they hit all creatures. green hates flying and enchantments. red just hates artifacts.

>>43470669
i mean i dont know what you guys are complaining about. green is the most overpowered color at the moment by far, who cares if it cant do literally everything?

>>43470448
I don't think giving reach would a be a solution. Just give them stuff to combat fliers with what they already do. Fighting, burning, and hitting on land so hard that their fliers will need to block them.

>>43470392
I was going to say it's more "red hates OTHER PEOPLE flying", but looking over red's cards...yeah, what the hell, MaRo? The closest red gets to disliking flying is cards that prevent fliers from blocking non-fliers, but that's more part of red's general blocking hate.

If anything, red hates NON-FLYING.

>>43470518
Seriously, I think this is just a problem with your area. There's been a shit-ton of more token-focused times than the second Ravnica block. Hell, FIRST Ravnica block printed Doubling Season, the single most overpowered token card.

You also seem to be unaware that shit gets powerful, then weak. No one's given a shit about Goblins in a while. Sure, RDW uses them, but it uses a bunch of other red weenies too.

>>43470669
Which is why many of us say "fuck MaRo", when compared to his fucking "everything works" attitude to Blue.

>>43470714
You're a funny guy.

>>43470758
Blue seeks perfection, why would perfection not be capable of doing everything?

>>43470784
Black seeks omnipotence, why can't it handle enchantments or artifacts.

Red seeks freedom, why can't it address restraining enchantments.

Also, by Wizard's own color pie, it's WHITE that seeks perfection, not blue.

Blue seeks omniscience, and realization of potential.

>>43470392
It's because Red having flying means that it has creatures it can use tactically.

Colors that aren't Blue aren't supposed to intelligent.

>>43470714
The issue is that the game's lead designer views the product he is designing in a way that's fundamentally different to how his audience views it. Balance isn't the problem in this instance, the issue lies in flavor and theme.

As a result, we only get cool (if janky and borderline unplayable) cards like Ezuri's Predation in sets that he doesn't have on a tight leash. The next one that he doesn't have total control over is SOI, so there might be some potential there.

>>43470224
>I've always fucking hated when maro talks about the color pie and how every color has things they just CAN'T do
Then he bends over backwards to use colour mechanics to defend stupid shit. Blue gets flying creatures and cares about instants/sorceries, so who cares if Delver is the best aggro creature in the game when blue is supposed to suck at aggro? It does two blue things and as such produces a blue result. Just like how Ezuri's Predation does two green things and produces a blue result.

I'm not joking. Make it cost 5UUU and Maro could probably justify it somehow.

>>43470931
*be intelligent

God, the irony.

>>43470992
Delver was undercosted, but that doesn't make its design un-blue.

>>43471099
Both it and Snapcaster would have fit equally well in Red, if not better.

>>43471099
That's literally my point. Delver does two blue things (flying and instant/sorcery dependence) and creates an un-blue result (ridiculously good aggro creature in a colour that's supposed to suck at that), but Maro's fine with it because "lol blue mechanics." Ezuri's Predation does two green things (shitting out tokens and fighting things) and creates an un-green result (board-state-independent soft wrath in a colour that's supposed to suck at that), and Maro hates it.

It's a retarded double standard but it's how he sees the game.

>>43471185
Being good doesn't make something suddenly a different color.

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I think its healthy to say "fuck the pie, it does what it does" every once in a while

>>43467398
Well he's a moron, so it's all good.

>>43471237
It's the way in which it is good and what the final result is.

Delver might be a card that does stuff that's related to blue but the final result is effectively an aggro card, with aggro being something that isn't blue.
Predation might be a card that does stuff that's related to green but the final result is effectively board clear, with board clear being something that isn't green.

>>43471292
Insects SHOULD HAVE flying

>>43471237
Mana Drip-Drip
1W
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 3.

Mana Tithe is still in white's part of the pie, but that example there is just a blue spell in disguise. Alternatively:

Path to Metamorphosis
U
Instant
Exile target creature. Its controller may search his or her library for a basic land card, put that card onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle his or her library.

Because cheap polymorphing is totally blue, right?

>>43471170
This. Fuck Snapcaster. The most ridiculous card in the game.

>>43469965
counterspells only "remove" creatures when they're cast, doom blade allows you to kill them at any time

>>43471387
Mana Tithe comes from planar chaos, an expansion where cards would get color-shifted.

>>43471170
red doesn't get tiny fliers but I can definitely see it with snapcaster

>>43468448
So is hurricane. It's conditional based on things green has legit conditions on:

Hurricane is mass flying removal
Green is mass fighting removal.

Fuck off nosewater.

>>43471426
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/38238130599/does-the-taxing-aspect-of-cards-like-mana-leak

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/120162895628/if-there-were-a-color-secondary-in-counter-spells

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/19809217002/regarding-white-counterspells-i-seem-to-recall

Also: Judge's Familiar can be played in mono-white.

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>>43471444
>red doesn't get tiny fliers

>>43470758
i mean, it's not a joke LOL
green gets better card advantage than blue, and rivals white's utility with its ability to destroy literally every type of permanent.

>>43470987
again, i think it's perfectly fine that green can't do literally anything. you do get weird and janky cards like the great aurora, you just don't get to have green wrath effects in standard which is pretty reasonable.

>>43467398
So, Ezuri's Predation is basically Unleash the Hounds from Hearthstone.

What's always annoyed me is how Black is supposed to be the "most powerful" color because it's wiling to pay any price to reach its goals, no sacrifice too great and no sacrilege unjustifiable.

Yet Blue almost always ends up accomplishing the exact same fucking shit as black without even needing an alternative cost of life or sacrificing creatures or permanents.

Blue gets to break the color pie because it's "creative" and "imaginative", while Black isn't allowed to do something like "pay half your life, destroy all enemy enchantments" or "sacrifice X creatures, you may choose to destroy up to X artifacts"

Alternative cost and sacrifice to destroy are very black things, but because it's not in their pie they can't do it.

Blue gets to do whatever it wants because Maro was bullied as a child and needs hit pet color to be the best


Nevermind the fact that it's been since fucking kamigawa it feels like where Black has had unconditionally not-evil-just-black creatures. Zombies vamps and demons are cool but come on even red gets non dragon ans goblin cards

>>43471426
>lapse of certainty
>illumination
>rebuff the wicked

gg no re.

>>43471549
>blue can cast toxic deluge at all, never mind without paying life
>blue can cast languish
>blue can cast damnation
>blue can destroy creatures, like fucking ever

ive always wondered why everyone said /tg/ was shit at magic, i guess you're all literally just plain retarded

>>43467398
MaRo and /tg/ have pretty much the same problem; we all take the color pie too seriously.

I think MaRo is right in thinking EP breaks the color pie, even though it 'technically' doesn't have any mechanical breaks from the color besides 'being a green semi-boardwipe'.

But MaRo's bitching doesn't matter in this case, because we're getting the card regardless, and I'm pumped for it.

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>>43471585
>blue can destroy creatures

And before you meme
>planar chaos
Blue has received a functional reprint outside of planar since then.

>>43471585
>blue can bounce not only All opponents creatures, but All opponents permanents at instant speed for 7 mana.

Cyclonic Rift shits all over all that.

>>43471631
are... are you actually this stupid? that's not creature destruction at all, it literally makes a 3/3 LOL

>>43471620
maro's bitching is the reason we never get anything that uses in-color mechanics to perform out-of-color tasks outside of things like supplementary products he has no control over.

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>>43471631
don't forget! Blue also gets Exile!

>>43471099
>>43471170
Blue Delver just doesn't make sense.

Snapcaster in Red (as is, just colorswapped) would be pushing it, Flash is not very Red mechanic and neither is the overall power of the card - you'd have to either make it 1 mana more expensive or drop the Flash. Actually there's Dualcaster Mage, that's Snapcaster in Red.

>>43471585
Getting your big guy doombladed the second he hits the field and getting it counterspelled end up accomplishing the same thing

>>43471640
>blue can do a thing black can't do
yeah no shit you ingrate, that's the entire fucking point of the color pie. black can do many things blue can't do and vice versa, because they're different colors lol

>>43471486
red gets very few then

>>43471654
>destroy target creature
>OH HEY BTW YOUR ELESH NORN IS A 3/3 APE NOW DON'T COMPLAIN BECAUSE WE REPLACED YOUR CREATURE IT'S NOT ACTUALLY "REMOVAL"

>>43471654
It literally says "destroy target creature"

"Nice Griselbrand, enjoy your ape!"

>>43471684
blue also has mass creature removal you nit!

>>43471486
Also Goblin Balloon Brigade. Red gets small Flyers and good Flyers, just no good small Flyers.

>>43471679
>not very Red mechanic and neither is the overall power of the card

Did you just say that having good creatures wasn't Red, and was Blue?

That aside, Red, White, and Black can all get Flash when it's important for the card to function.

As for mechanics, Snapcaster's focus on Flashback fits much better in Red, as Red has a heavier focus on Flashback than Blue does.

>>43471691
Meaning Delver would fit fine. Glad we agree.

>>43471489
Man, it must be nice to be this silly. Green has good cards, and is included in a ton of decks because it has solid ramp effects. That's it. White is more powerful than Green. Blue is more powerful than Green.

Claiming green is the most powerful color is like claiming French fries are the most important food, because they come with so many meals. They come with so many things because they're useful and undemanding.

>>43471684
Turn to Swine
Mass Polymorph
FUCKING MIRROR MATCH, THE CARD IN THE OP IMAGE.

Blue can effectively do everything every other color can do. So can white. Black, Red, and Green are then told they CAN'T, because it "wouldn't be fair."

This is an argument that's been had a dozen times. There's plenty of easy, color-true ways to make it so every color has potential answers to every problem, like Blue and White do. But wizards doesn't want to, because they prefer the current moderately unbalanced system, because it allows them to overcompensate in certain ways that appeal to some players.

>>43471658
>in-color mechanics to perform out-of-color tasks

Because that's literally 'breaking' the color pie; it breaks the identities of the colors and changes how they interact.

We like EP because it's a green semi-boardwipe, but I don't think it should become a staple; it's a great novelty for Commander but we shouldn't be getting one every block.

>>43471740
Blue isn't supposed to have good creatures at all, so it fits even less there.

>>43471679
>dual caster mage

Ah, that's right. Continuing the proud red tradition of getting worse mechanics after blue steals the good ones from its side of the color pie.

Flash is a mechanic that's fairly evenly spread out among the colors, except for blue's larger share. Every color gets access to it though for trick cards, such as Snapcaster. Snapcaster itself would have been red, except the guy who designed it was autistic about it being in blue.

>Evil Ezuri
Cool.

Also, which one doesn't work within the colour pie? I see people bitching about Maro "coddling blue", but both of those seem very in-colour. Blue makes tokens and Fights while blue makes clones. If anything, Mirror Match should be Black. It's done similar things, like with Nemesis Trap.

I mean, I can kind of see the mass removal argument. That's not something that Green is supposed to be good with, meanwhile Blue is primary colour for cloning (and therefore getting your opponent's ETB triggers) as well as a reactionary colour. Although "do something only during the blocker phase" is more of a recent thing. Typically punishing people for attacking you is more of a White thing.

>>43470669
He pretty clearly spells out the problem, and really it makes sense. He's basically saying that if this was a CREATURE that had that ability, it would be fine. I mean, people in this thread are bitching but there are plenty of colours who can't do certain things.

>>43468843
what i mean is when any color can pay 7 mana for "you can't lose" it doesn't seem like a stretch that triple green 8 mana buys you that effect

>>43471806
would, like, one out of color super high cmc card like EP every now and then really damage the health of this game? at 8cmc it's pretty much guaranteed to not make a splash in any competitive format. the 8cmc category is pretty much reserved for commander and kitchen table.

>>43471803
how do any of those cards do anything remotely similar to damnation
do you just talk to hear yourself speak, or do you genuinely believe the retarded shit you are saying?

>>43470518
I think go fish might be more up your alley

>>43471831
no no no, we've been over this

Blue having whatever it wants is blues thing.

>>43471841

>I mean, people in this thread are bitching but there are plenty of colours who can't do certain things.

Some colors are held to the color pie more stringently than others.

>>43471841
>makes tokens
>makes those tokens fight

Noting bad at all really, also, 8 fucking mana sorcery.

>>43471841

MaRo is retarded and so are you. Green's already paying more for a shittier board wipe precisely because it's "out of color" and yes it is okay to give colors shittier and more expensive versions of mechanics.

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>>43471877
Remember guys, "chaos warp was a mistake"

>>43471843
Don't ask me, ask MaRo.

>>43471925
funny, ain't chaos warp literally single target warp world?

>>43471775
>Did you just say that having good creatures wasn't Red, and was Blue?
Wait, sorry, "overall power" was not a good choice of words, read that as "overall versatility"
Red can have good creatures in terms of damage, but not so much in term of overall utility. Snapcater does a whole lot of utility.

Also Black has THREE creatures with Flash in whole history of magic. Two of them are from Planar Chaos block. The last one doesn't really need it to function.

>>43471925
>Some colors are held to the color pie more stringently than others.
Exactly for instance Red has no idea what it is anymore other then direct damage.
Outside of that I really has no clue.

>>43471959
is the last one offalsnout?

>>43471891
An 8CMC mono-green Languish is still a Languish.

>>43472010
So? Beseech the Queen was allowed as is, because paying enough mana for an effect can justify breaking the pie. Otherwise, there's no reason six mana is sufficient to steal tutoring from black. See Planar Portal.

>>43471847
You're right, how could have have been so blind? Turn to Swine isn't a Damnation. BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HIT YOUR GUYS. Oh, sure, it costs more to target more than 2 guys, and it gives them 2/2s, because I'm certain that's a fair trade for their 6/6 flier, or their 9/9, their 20/20 indestructible trampler. Yeah, that 2/2 salves the wound.

MIrror Match definitely couldn't also read "Destroy all attacking creatures with power greater than or equal to their toughness", because that would actually be notably WEAKER than what it does, since that one doesn't abuse ETB effects.

You're 100% right on Mass Polymorph, however. That one isn't relevant to the topic. I forgot it only targeted your creatures.

>>43469965
>Necropotence
>Blood Moon
>Stoneforge Mystic
>Charbelcher
>Abyss
>Bitterblossom
>Bridge from Below
>Yawgmoth's Will
>Tendrils of Agony
>Balance
>Channel
>Demonic Tutor

Every color has gotten crazy broken cards, people only seem the remember the blue ones though. If we were to go by number of cards banned colorless would be by far the most broken.

Saying blue the best color is babbies first opinion about magic

>>43471986
>for instance Red has no idea what it is anymore other then direct damage.

Considering the primary wincon is 'deal 20 damage' and Red's the best color at doing that, I don't see where the problem is.

>>43471993
Yes, good memory.

>>43471986
>Exactly for instance Red has no idea what it is anymore other then direct damage.
It gets some "card draw&(randomly)discard" lately.

>>43471959
>Only Blue can have creatures that do multiple things

Yeah. You're sure convincing me.

>>43472010
Actually no, You are wrong on that. Languish gets around low power Indestructible creatures and don't bother 5 Toughness creatures. Also cost fucking 4

This cost 8, don;t get past indestructible and don't bother creatures with 5 Toughness.

They are nothing alike and your are silly.

>ITT a bunch of fucking greenbabbies cry that someone calls them out on getting all the good shit lately

>>43469717
No, because Genesis Wave involves you having creatures in your deck. Creatures like Foe-Razer Regents. He's saying that this card is out of colour for Green because you can get away with playing cards like this and not playing creatures, and Creatures are Green's Thing.

>>43469800 >>43469734
Sweepers are in colour for Blue.
>where does it fucking say you can't cast Ezuri's Predation unless you control no
creatures?
You're missing the point. He's saying that it's a problem because you CAN get away with doing that. It doesn't care about your own board state. If it said "create a 4/4 beast for each creature you control. Those tokens each fight a different creature target opponent controls" it would be fine to him.

>>43470224
If the colour pie wasn't stuck to, Magic would suck. MaRo says "no, the colour pie is sacred" because it's one of the secrets to Magic's success over the last few years. The entire point of the colour pie is to facilitate balance. Ignoring that would shit all over the fucking game and render the colours pointless.

Yeah, the colour pie is sacred and it is HIS game. It's not a fucking RPG, you don't get to houserule things. It's a modular but prepackaged game that runs off of an analogue computer system. You don't get to change things any more than you can change how Chess works.

Magic isn't a roleplaying game. Acting like your uninformed opinions matter more than those of the people who continually test and research things--and who SEE what happens when something does break the colour pie--is nerd entitlement.

>>43472106
funny enough, the best commander so far is the G/U Sage of Hours combo machine.

>>43472032
>because paying enough mana for an effect can justify breaking the pie

Didn't MaRo specifically say this was not the case?

>>43471292
it would probably calm MaRo's autism if this was reprinted as a spider that shit out spiders which all had reach and deathtouch

Someone pitch it so I can play with both

>>43472126

MaRo saying the color pie is sacred is somewhat undermined by the fact that he doesn't hold all colors to the pie consistently.

>>43472048
?

Red is the best color at dealing 20 damage in a very specific way (burn). Green is the best color at dealing 20 damage in another specific way (efficient creatures). Black is the best color at dealing 20 damage in another specific way (drain life effects). Etc, Etc. All of these colors have viable alternative slices of the color pie to reside in.

Red does not. It has shit all outside of Lightning Bolt.

>>43472146
>more Spider love

Yes please, I want my B/G Legendary Spider!

>>43472142
If he did, he shouldn't have given approval to beseech the queen and other hybrid/colorless cards.

>>43472092
Sure, bad analogy, but MaRo's justification for his opinion still holds water.

The color pie breaks sometimes, it's no big deal. But MaRo's job is maintaining the integrity of the game, which means being conservative with the pie.

>>43469162
I'd say mirror match should be red since it works like reds copy effects

>>43472192
petition for maro to recuse himself on all color pie evaluations featuring blue cards when?

>>43470884
Red is the color about breaking the rules, Why is it the most limited color then

>>43471986
red historically got land destruction and nonbasic hate

but that badwrongfun so fuck it

being a red player is endless suffering. At least it makes people complaining about other color cards being shitty seem petty.

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So did I fix it?

>>43472167
Direct damage happens to be the fastest way to achieve that goal, and it's been getting strong support lately, so quit fucking whining about it. You can't just give Red the things the other colors have because you don't like what it's supposed to be doing.

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>>43472040
wait a sec
so you're serious?
jesus christ LOL
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
>turn to swine isnt a damnation
YEAH NO KIDDING LMOA

jesus christ how do you even breathe when you are this stupid? I know so many people irl that are on the "omg blue op" train but none of them are actually retarded enough to think that random janky blue spells that don't even have anything to do with damnation are damnation... how do i even word this like how do i even express how hilarious it is to me that someone can think an X spell that targets and doesn't net negative creatures on the board is a wrath effect

>mirror match could have read "Destroy all attacking creatures with power greater than or equal to their toughness"
i mean sure, if caged sun, gauntlet of power, or hell anthems in general, pump spells, combat tricks, equipments, and a million other things didn't exist
i can just imagine myself sitting there with this stupid card in my hand vs some bruna light of alabaster deck swinging at me with about 20 auras and 10 swords on her wishing it was an actually good card from literally any other card like maybe a white card (angel of the dire hour) or an actually good blue spell like aetherspouts
and i dont even know why im talking about that, as usual it has nothing to do with black's piece of the color pie which includes creature destruction. "destroy target attacking creature" isn't even remotely the same thing, and this is not that. and of course you're literally retarded, so you're trying to compare this to damnation, which of course is even more of a stretch since they would have to attack you before you can even kill any of their shit

>>43467398

According to Mark Rosewater, Mental Misstep was made LESS broken by making it a free hard counter instead of a free Force Spike.

Don't believe everything you read.

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>>43472249
the amount of butthurt that went into this post amuses me.

That is all I wished to say, have a good night.

>>43472262
how did anyone think mental misstep was gonna be fair

>>43472190
Sure, that's probably a good point, and probably why there were very specific rules for how Eldrazi and Devoid cards function.

It's not an issue of breaking the color pie, it's recognizing where a break has happened and whether or not it infringes on a color's identity.

>>43472298
Mental Misstep is fair - anyone can play it.

>>43472291
no, making fun of retards is funny to me

>>43472248
That's the thing though:

Red has things, blue takes them.

Red is declared to have looting by MaRo, which makes sense. MaRo then decides that red based looting effects have to be discard first, and blue gets the superior draw first, discard later approach, because that's "smarter"

Flashback is red's best mechanic. Blue gets snapcaster mage.

Red gets wheels. For every wheel effect red has, blue has a better one. (Timetwister>Wheel of Fortune, Timespiral>windfall>reforge the soul, Jace's Arcivist>Wheel Magus, etc)

Blue, supposedly the weakest in creatures even gets more efficient creatures than red. It's maddening.

>>43472244
It's sad that this was probably all they needed to do to appease MaRo

>>43472248

can you quote strong support for red direct damage to the face?

Red hasn't gotten amazing face burn spells in BFZ or Origins, but it has gotten use it or lose it draw power, and prowess creatures, which allows it to push past blockers, win races, as long as it gets reasonably lucky.

>>43472244
4GGGG and we're set.

>>43472262
a free force spike could be usable in a myriad of other situations and still be gas on turn 1

>>43472319
Don't forget the fact that Red got stuff like Fork and Shunt to redirect spells for not-quite-counterpspell interaction. Blue is the only one to have gotten those lately.

>>43472319
>Flashback is a red mechanic
I love this meme.

>>43467398
At first I thought you were talking about the blue card being more of a red mechanic.

Surprised the green is the problematic card. For that kind of cost, it seems reasonably priced.

>>43472240

Eidolon of the Great Revel is a card.

A good card.

A "played in Legacy" card.

But yeah; red is terrible. Not like they'd ever reprint Lightning Bolt.

Stop claiming a color is terrible because most of the cards played in eternal formats are not from that color.

People whinge about how blue is "the best color" because it happens to have the largest number of overpowered cards. But none of those cards is a Black Lotus, a Yawgmoth's Will, a Mishra's Factory, or a Memory Jar.

The colors are balanced. The best cards in a given format are not balanced by color.

Why do I even care about Commander cards anyway? It's almost as bad a format as Standard.

>>43472319
yeah but red is supposed to be the worst color. all it can do is be angry and do damage to things, basically the color as a whole is inherently subpar for a trifecta of reasons that come together in edh:
1. 40 point life total, this one is simple enough
2. singleton, red's best cards are burn cards and a card that can only burn their face like lava spike for example is only "good" if the rest of your deck is also lava spike effects. if you cant devote to attacking their life total with cards rather than with permanents, lava spike is literally useless.
3. multiplayer. obviously aggro in general suffers from this but especially if you are aggressive with spells rather than with permanents, well each spell can only hit em once. at least creatures can keep hitting em.

>>43472338
>can you quote strong support for red direct damage to the face?

Lightning Bolt :^)

>>43472319
Once again, I'm not MaRo. I'm sorry you're hurt-feelings over Red v Blue but that's not the discussion we're having at the moment.

>>43470671
Wizards of the Coast say it constantly. Magic continues to experience growth each year, even when the rest of the hobby gaming market suffers.

Here's one from 2013
http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/video-games/20-magic-gathering-still-going-strong-not-just-school-lunchrooms-f8C11044163
Here's one from 2014 saying that while other Hasbro divisions lost money, Magic went up 20%
http://icv2.com/articles/games/view/27842/magic-up-over-20-hasbro
Here's one from this year saying Magic went down in Q3 but is STILL up for the year overall.
http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/32837/magic-down-hasbro-q3

>>43471843
>>43471806
See, this is the problem. People don't seem to realize that when something breaks the colour pie it gets used OVER and OVER. Like, as far as I'm aware every Green deck has Beast Within, because every Green deck is GOING to need to get rid of something that they can't deal with. And if they printed MORE of those, even just once every five years, suddenly you've got MonoGreen Control and Green decks that play like those White decks where you wipe the board and then use a Permanent that becomes a temporary creature to attack on an empty field (Gideon for instance). That's not what Green is supposed to be able to do.

>>43471877
That's a problem. Hell, Maro has even said it's a problem. Part of the problem is that Blue's colour mechanically is much more loosely defined.

>>43471891
The issue is that it does those things on one single card. I mean, I personally think it's fine, and that supplementary products should break the colour pie in certain ways, because they're all about testing the waters (I think they should take the silver border role). But the problem is it changes people's perception of the colour pie.

>>43471922
No it's not. And Maro is keeping people like you from ruining the game because of how you THINK things should work. Unless you're one of those people who honestly thinks that early MtG was the best.

>>43472338
>red has no burn spells in origins
>uncounterable char without the drawback

UHHH YEA... K

>>43472387
>red is supposed to be the worst color
Then there is a problem.
>all it can do is be angry and do damage to things
Because apparently representing how red is also supposed to be joy and inspiration and creativity in card form is "challenging" while blue can get a card about studying every set.

>>43472165
He does, you just don't agree with him. There's a difference.

>>43472404
The point is that MaRo is notoriously biased when it comes to blue's color pie, and anything he says in regards to a blue card being fair game should be taken with a shaker of salt.

>>43472423

>No it's not. And Maro is keeping people like you from ruining the game because of how you THINK things should work. Unless you're one of those people who honestly thinks that early MtG was the best.

Actually, it is, if it's in the best interest of balance for the block.

>>43468938
Languish doesn't cost 8 fucking mana.

Green can also essentially boardwipe if you force your opponent to block a Lure that has been pumped to high heaven. That still works within the color pie and accomplishes nearly the same end.

>>43472423
beast within only gets played because it's a reasonable mana cost. if it was 6cmc like desert twister, nobody would use it.

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>>43472438
>inspiration
>joy
yeah uh no lol. red is just about anger. it doesn't matter how many times they tell you "oh no red encompasses all the emotions!" or "b-b-b-b-but look at this one red card we printed this one time and how the guy on it isn't really angry!", there's a difference between talking the talk and walking the walk. look at the red cards from any set and you will see, red is about being angry and blowing things up.

>then there is a problem
yes.

>>43472349

A free Force Spike doesn't hard-counter Brainstorm, Cabal Therapy, Entomb, Preordain, Crop Rotation, Swords to Plowshares, Ancestral Recall, Lightning Bolt, Goblin Guide, Breakthrough, Faithless Looting, Spell Pierce, Mana Vault, Dark Ritual, Gitaxian Probe, Mother of Runes, Chain Lightning, Chain of Vapor, Thoughtseize, High Tide, Reanimate, Grafdigger's Cage, Sol Ring, Preordain, Glimpse of Nature, Stifle, Noble Hierarch, Delver of Secrets, or Pithing Needle, among other things.

In other words, a free Force Spike doesn't counter every staple non-land, non-mana-rock in the eternal formats.

>>43472373
>Flashback
>White 16
>Blue 23
>Black 19
>Red 30
>Green 24

Yeah.Snapcaster clearly fits better into Blue.

>>43472373
>there are 30 red cards flashback
>there are only 22 blue cards with flashback

>>43472438
>how red is also supposed to be joy and inspiration and creativity in card form is "challenging"

That's flavor, not mechanic. There are mechanical boundaries in place. Blue will never get Haste.

>>43472486
Yeah, just look how angry this guy is >>43471486

>>43472493
>>43472494
>red should just get random flash creatures that make million card advantage too
yeah uh sorry boys but the color pie exists for a reason. you get abbot of keral keep, the red snapcaster mage, because red can't be precise and because red can't have too much flash. red is just for angry dumb guys.

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>>43472527

>>43472464
Blue breaking the pie is one problem; but complaining that because Blue does it doesn't justify every other color doing it. And maybe it is unfair, but bitching about it on 4chan has and will never help your case.

>>43472527
Low quality bait

>>43472521
he's gonna be angry when heliod swats him out of the sky, lol
red doesn't get small flying creatures anyway, it's already out of the red theme a bit

>>43472515
bonded fetch

>>43472298

I'm not defending Rosewater. One of the biggest problems in MtG design is that they keep trying to make cards that are cool in Limited and Standard, but they don't test a damned thing for Modern or the eternal fromats. So they keep banning interesting and useful cards for Modern because they "don't want it to turn out like Legacy." And that's a colossally stupid move, because a non-rotating format is going to accumulate the necessary cards to make turn-1 combos if the game's designers don't test cards for that format.

But what do I know?

>>43472585
Still >>43472576

>>43472515
Blue has gotten unearth and suspend as in-color ways to get haste, which is normall out of color for them.

The issue is why green can't use yokens and fighting, two in color interactions, to get around not having empty board state wipe

>>43472580
Nah, I'm using the fact that MaRo is retarded to question that this breaks the color pie. I don't see it.

>>43472629
>The issue is why green can't use yokens and fighting, two in color interactions, to get around not having empty board state wipe

It can, it just needs to be on a creature, because Green is the Creature color, not the 'creature token sorcery' color.

>>43472493
If flashback is your justification then Snapcaster should be fucking black because Yawgmoth's will came first. I suppose you think JVP should be red too because of his flashback ability?

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>>43472478
A few weeks ago I resolved and attacked with an Engulfing Slagwurm equipped with Nemesis Mask and wiped my friends board while gaining about 30 life

>mfw

Polukranos and Bow of Nylea trigger can give green a one sided board wipe as well.

>>43472244
Bad wording, but on point.

>>43472331
That's not sad at all. That's literally the point. The point is "that card does something that is not within Green's wheelhouse because it allows Green to wipe the board even if they have no creatures to begin with, which is something that Green should not be able to do through only a sorcery."

>>43472375
Really? Red? It's more White if you ask me. It punishes your opponents for attacking you. How is that Red? Stealing all your opponent's creatures and making them commit sepuku would be Red, but Red doesn't tend to do reactionary stuff.

>>43472438
Blue gets study cards because the game is about MAGIC and studying magic helps you be better at doing magic.

I'll admit they could probably do some joy in card form, but most of it would be out of colour mechanically. Like, how do you show joy rejuvenating someone without it being a White or Green card? How do you show happiness in a way that feels red?

Soulbond might be good as a primarily Red mechanic if it returns. THE FIRE FORGED BONDS OF FRIENDSHIP.

The issue with things like >>43472486 isn't that they're wrong. It's that they're right, but barely exist.

>>43472472
But... it generally isn't. And even then the problem is that Magic is more than just the block. Give a colour something it can't do (especially something that shores up a weakness, like not being able to deal with a larger board presence) and it's going to want to do that thing. People are going to want to use that card because it gets rid of a weakness they had.

>>43472651
He was incredibly specific, see here >>43472665

Green is the color that relies on creatures to get shit done. If a Sorcery is doing this without using your Creature spells, then it's breaking the pie, even if the means to do so are within Green mechanically.

In other words, MaRo is autistic and so are you.

Good God; stop complaining about the color pie.

It was never well defined, and it will never be well-defined. And that's not a problem. Play good cards, not "cards of My Color."

Hell; I run 5c Dredge and All Spells in Legacy. And, much as it may surprise you, those decks pull out wins.

>>43472671
Snapcaster is a card that focuses on instants/sorceries and flashback. Red likes Instants/Sorceries just as much as Blue, and likes Flashback more than Blue. What's not to get?

>>43472736
>Play good cards, not "cards of My Color."

Fucking this. If you don't think a color is good enough to play, then don't, and then Wizards will be forced to fix it.

>>43472790
Didn't this question get answered last year with Dualcaster Mage?

>>43472601
It has Haste, but it's conditional. It doesn't actually get to ATTACK, it has Haste so that it can quickly use it's ability. Although Bonded Fetch would also work in Red. Or is Red looting discard then draw?

>>43472614
They do test for Modern, it's just that there's so much more to deal with.

>>43472629
Unearth and Suspend get Haste because they wouldn't work without it. Suspend also gets haste because it's already so slow. You cast the creature several turns ago and have to WAIT.

Green can do Ezuri's Predation, it just can't do it on a Sorcery. A creature or even an Enchantment that lets you make 4/4 Beast Tokens and then has "5GGG: Each creature you control fights a different creature target opponent controls" would be fine. It requires you to HAVE some board presence, which is what Green wants to have. Green needs board presence to do things. It doesn't get to have it's pie and eat it too, it needs creatures.

>>43472704
Those both require creatures. Also, Engulfing Slagwurm is a bad card that I love so much.

>>43472793
>>43472736
>Play good cards, not "cards of My Color."
This is missing the point so hard that I'm confused as to whether you even know what people are talking about. No one is saying not to play these cards. If anything, the opposite is the problem. The problem isn't that these cards shouldn't be PLAYED, it's that they shouldn't be MADE, at least not in the form they're in. Green isn't supposed to be able to do things like this unless it has creatures. Creatures that a spell gives you to then use to wipe the board doesn't count, because you didn't have those creatures before hand.

>>43472853
Yeah, but it's a poor substitute. Meanwhile they can't just reprint a functional reprint of Snapcaster because holy fuck two of them would be such a terrible idea.

>>43472853
yeah except dualcaster mage is shit. SHIT.

>>43472853
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/23680242486/did-you-ever-consider-making-snapcaster-mage-red

thoughts on travis woo being a racist?

>>43467672
Blue is weaker now that it has ever been.

>>43473113
minorities can't be racist. Mr. Woo is clearly a minority.

>>43473113
woo lad

>>43473148
ok anon let's do a thought experiment. let's look at the last x cards to have been printed nowadays that strongly affected eternal formats.
the first one is obviously baby jace, but the verdict isn't clear on him yet so let's skip him for now. he may just end up being mediocre in modern and legacy. the next two, then, are dig through time and treasure cruise. these cards were so incredibly powerful they eventually got banned from literally every single eternal format. and look, all these cards are blue, wow! yep, blue sure sucks rn.

>>43473148
>The god color is only a demi-god now guys!

How do we kill MaRo?

>>43473196
And look at the cards from the other colors that are making there way into decks left and right.

>>43473005

>They do test for Modern, it's just that there's so much more to deal with.

I agree that it gets harder and harder to test for all the formats, especially because the card-pool gets exponentially larger the farther back you go. But they still printed Ponder, Mental Misstep, Snapcaster Mage, Deathrite Shaman, Dig through Time, and TREASURE CRUISE, all after deciding that Modern was a format worth "preserving".

I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm saying that if Wizzerds genuinely cares to make Modern a long-game, non-rotating format, they've done a bad job at setting a precedent.

>>43473113
What is there to say? Closet stormfront fag outed and fired from his job for being human trash. I guess some stories have happy endings.

>>43473113
I'm always anti-internet outrage. We talked about this in the last EDH thread, where one anon posted some nobody's facebook reaction about how thoughts can be like heroin and heroin addicts aren't really people and a few other things that weren't relevant. I didn't watch his stream and I don't know what he said but playing devil's advocate is something every intelligent person does, just because the Holocaust is some great big sacred cow doesn't mean that it shouldn't be deconstructed. Understand the actual motives of people in situations like that might be an interesting thing to discover.

>>43473206
Travis Woo is the hero we need.

Let him lead an army of chinamen in a glorious war against prices.

>>43467398
It's only for commander, so who cares?

>>43473196

just want u to know

ur a fuckin tard

>>43473198

ur in a format where green and black are two of the best colors, possibly even better than blue u fuckin baby

>>43467672

let me guess, blue has no weaknesses right? it's not like it only has one form of permanent answer to threats that requires it to hold up mana on it's turn AND have the card when the threat is deployed, unlike every other color's answers.

>>43470161

jesus christ nigga

blue doesn't have answers for everything you fucking baby

god damn green/red mages are the whiniest mother fuckers i swear to jesus

>>43470669
>>43467398

>Ezuri's Predation
Soooo Vorinclex is dead then?

>>43473223
Since Innistrad:

Deathrite Shaman
Monastery Mentor
Abrupt Decay
Terminus
Liliana of the Veil
Rest in peace
Griselbrand
Containment Priest
Thalia
Craterhoof Behemoth
Eidolon of the Great Revel
Reclamation Sage
Gurmag Angler
Scanvenging Ooze
Vryn Wingmare
Council's Judgment
Golgari Charm

>>43473239
oh yeah i mean bill boulden's reply was very inane. it's because he's a jew, I think. he talks about how it was wrong of travis to even read mein kampf or even think about the holocaust being fake or whatever, and I'm not really sure how to express the myriad of ways that's retarded. but for absolute starters it's an insult to all of us to imply that we cannot think about evil, bad things and why those things are bad without somehow succumbing to some kind of magical evil ideas plague. it's actually just fucking ludicrous. it's an insult to intellectualism in general, really. it's presumably also patently false, although that's an empirical question that i assume nobody would ever make a study about just because of how retarded it is.

>>43469129

pognify and rapid hybridization aren't really "answers" because they replace whatever you kill with another threat. seriously, go look at how much tournament play the last pognify card got.

fucking none.

>>43473230
>There are people who seriously think like this
Oy vey

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>>43473392
>they're all green or white
and so it becomes clear which the best colors really are.

>>43469646

I don't think the card is that bad but I can see where he's coming from

maybe if it worked based on the creatures you control?

>>43473403
>3/3
>Threat

>>43469443

Pognify doesn't break the pie you fucking tard. It doesn't destroy a creature, it turns a creature into another creature giving you another threat you have to deal with.

>>43473393
Exactly, thoughts aren't the fucking Dark Side for christ's sake. The ridiculous parallel he drew between playing devil's advocate and fucking mind heroin is completely insane

>>43473443
>3/3 for free that costs your opponent no mana, tempo, or card
>in fact, it costs you mana, and tempo, and a card

that vanilla 3/3 without abilities is literally more efficient than a turn 1 black lotus into monastery mentor

>>43473223
could you name them?

>>43473430
>Griselbrand
>Liliana of the Veil
>Eidolon of the Great Revel
>Gurmag Angler
You might need to get your eyes checked.

>>43473438
Exactly. A sorcery with "your creatures fight each other creature" or something is fine because you need to have creatures to make use of it. It's broken because it both gives you creature tokens and then immediately has them fight each of your opponent's creatures.

>>43473488
>costs your opponent no tempo loss
>pongify their important tempo card
>bolt their 3/3 if it's really that big of a threat to you

>>43473495
see >>43473392

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>>43473488
>Getting a Pognify token is better than Lotus into Mentor

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>>43473501
>names 38 cards
>only 3 of them are not green and not white
yea ok bud lmao

>>43473430
>>43473501
Looks like he's Colorblind, anon

>>43473506
So it should have been a split card instead?

>>43473225

the only one of those cards that was really incredibly awful was treasure cruise

deathrite shaman's shit too though i'm glad it's gone

but honestly, it's good that they push cards. if they didn't we'd get a bunch of shitty sets like bfz, and if the cards are that polarizing they can ban them.

>>43473524
It also appears he can't count >>43473523

>>43473518
>i dont know what efficient means
why do you even post then, anon?

>>43473511
>have to use a removal spell from another color in conjunction with blue's "removal" to actually remove something
i guess we can rest our case that pongify is most certainly not a removal spell then?
also sick fucking plays "ill just 2 for 1 myself for days"

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>>43473518
>>43473488
sorry, I meant to post the gif

Why the fuck do we care about the color pie for cards that won't even see widespread play?

These new Commander cards fucking suck in Commander and they're certainly not going to see Eternal play.

So you have this small segment of retarded players who play bad cards who ALSO get angry about the color pie getting all offended over garbage cards and refusing to play them.

Problem #1 - Card prices are fucking ridiculous. Any "issue" Magic players bitch about is secondary to that problem. Any victory about anything is insignificant if it does not advance a solution to that problem. From that problem stems all other problems although color pie discussion is not related it just goes to show how goddamn irrelevant it is.

>>43473511

so you've just wasted two cards to deal with one of their cards.

that sucks man. in fact, that's why instead of dealing with that bullshit you'll usually just run a real removal spell like bolt and then bolt the first creature so you don't have to look like a fucking faggot awkwardly bolting a card that you created with your piece of shit removal spell you only added because /tg/ mislead you about the game because they suck ass at magic.

>>43473561

dude, blue can do anything in the game if it has access to the other colors of mana. fucking blue so op maro always giving it special treatment

>>43473574
uh, just get fakes? wow, i just solved your big stupid "problem" lmao

now grow up little bab and argue about about the color pie like the rest of us

>>43471831
BLue isn't supposed to have creatures which are good at combat, not rubbish creatures all round

>>43473561
You can also just bounce their 3/3. Or even use a mass bounce spell if you're so worried about losing tempo.

>>43473605
Are you trying to say Delver isn't good at combat?

>>43471170

>delver would have fit better in red

delver is the bluest fucking card in innistrad

>equally well in red

agreed

>if not better

dumb as fuck

Snapcaster probably could have been red but honestly red doesn't need the help anyways.

>>43473536
The card is fine, MaRo is just an autist so don't expect to see something like it very often.

>>43473611
yeah ok, so to kill a creature blue has to assemble a 2 card combo, and then actually cast both of those cards just to kill 1 card. clearly this means blue has removal right guys? check out green's doom blade, where you cast sedge scorpion and then savage punch it onto whatever you want to kill. somehow having to draw the right 2 cards, and then actually cast both is positive tempo.

>>43473641
it dies to a bear

>>43473597
>uh, just get fakes?
Done. Bought almost every single Modern and Legacy staple for over $200.

Doesn't change the fact that prices are fucking ridiculous.

>>43473683
why do you care? the means to get cheap cards is out there for anyone who wants them, if people want to keep letting wizards swindle them then they deserve to pay $700 for a standard deck that will be worth under $200 in a year.

>>43473681
A bear can't block it.

>>43473362
name something blue does not have an answer for.

>>43473611

that's still 2-for-1ing yourself you fucking moron

>>43473641
>>43473681
>>43473681
>>43473681

i think it's hilarious that blue gets one decent creature that only works in a specific type of deck and everybody shits their britches over it, while other colors get creatures that are just as strong, if not stronger or less situational (tarmogoyf, bob, taylor swift, goblin guide, eidolon of the great revel, tasigur, siege rhino, gurmag angler...) but nobody ever mentions them when they talk about how op blue is.

>>43473587
Doesn't change the fact that it's an instant speed removal spell that can kill a goyf for U. You don't even need to bolt the 3/3, I was saying if it really got down to the wire and that 3/3 feels that threatening to you, you can do it

>>43473418
>there are people who seriously think stormfront scum deserve to live
lmao

>>43473005

>This is missing the point so hard that I'm confused as to whether you even know what people are talking about....

Bad cards have existed since the beginning of Magic. If you don't like it, either play another game, or don't waste your time debating people over why they exist.

Cards that "break the color pie" have been printed since the beginning of Magic. If you don't like it, see above.

Green isn't "supposed" to do anything. Nor is any other color. Saying that a card shouldn't be made because it doesn't fit into the color pie is pointless; excellent cards often have failed to fit into the color pie.

Red and green are underpowered? Channel, Sylvan Library, Oath of Druids, Fastbond, Eureka, Hypergenesis, Crop Rotation, Hermit Druid, Deathrite Shaman, Birds of Paradise, Berserk, Tarmogoyf, Scapeshift, Goblin Recruiter, Imperial Recruiter, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Wheel of Fortune, Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, Blood Moon, Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Splinter Twin, and Goblin Piledriver are all cards.

Sure, a lot of those cards are banned. And a lot of those cards aren't legal in Modern. So what's your point? Many of those cards defy the color pie, as do many cards in the other colors (Phyrexian Obliterator, Delver of Secrets, Stoneforge Mystic), but certain people don't like seeing "their colors" played less in Format X than the colors they don't like (which probably isn't true anyway, but I digress). I'm not missing the point; the point makes no sense because the best decks don't waste time with the "color pie".

Lands warp the game because they're too powerful. Why can't other colors get The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (even though they did)? Why can't other colors get Bazaar of Baghdad (even though they did)? Why can't other colors get Ghost Quarter (they totally did)?

>>43473722

Literally fucking everything off the stack. If it's not on the stack, Blue's answers are temporary.

>>43473733

or i could just splash black and actually kill the fucker because while taking away my opponent's tarmogoyf is great, replacing it with a 3/3 (which will still kill you in 5-6 turns if they play nothing else) isn't exactly "dealing with the problem". Blue's big weakness is that if it doesn't get you with it's counters (all of which suck now because they're "unfun") it doesn't really have any permanent solutions that don't involve tempo/card loss.

>>43473678
No, the point is >>43473733

Whatever you use it on is going to be more threatening than the 3/3 due to its size or effect. If the 3/3 is still threatening you, then you can deal with it in the same ways you would a normal 3/3 token.

If giving your opponent a 3/3 in exchange for their bomb loses you the game, you were going to lose anyway.

>>43473719
Exactly, you play delver because it can go over your opponents creatures

>>43473733
just the notion of pongifying a goyf is so painful that i can't believe you think that's a real thing. jesus christ. goyf is literally already vanilla, all you do is make it a bit smaller for a card and mana. like if you think about cases where you just want some kind of removal, any kind, who cares if i lose value, you think about stuff like bloom titan or goblin electromancer. the point is that you don't run removal spells to have ready just in case someone plays something you can't otherwise deal with with your vast armada of cards. you play removal spells to actually fucking kill their creatures with, not turn them into 3/3s. why would you build your deck with the plan to 2 for 1 yourself when you can run actual removal spells that kill things permanently out of literally any other color other than green?

>>43473803
the point is that spending a card to make something slightly less threatening is not just a bad play, it means that card is not a removal spell.

>>43473813
And you play small Red flyers for the same reason. Is your point that Blue can get Red creatures because it can?

>>43473786
>Literally fucking everything off the stack. If it's not on the stack, Blue's answers are temporary


So you're an idiot who has never played magic?

Because Blue has answer for everything, a temporary answer is still and answer.

>>43473854
in the context of commander, turning that vital creature in to a 3/3 can be a death knell.

>>43473803

>if giving someone a 3/3 for their bomb

what if they're not playing bombs

what if they're playing fucking goblin guide the 2/2 mother fucker who's been killing you before you even played your first card

that pognify is going to save you now isn't it

what if they damage you before you pognify their creature because you missed the chance to counter their spell and after you pognify their "bomb" they kill you anyways (or...play another creature and kill you with TWO creatures anyways!).

seriously, there's areason these cards NEVER see play.

>>43473861

>a temporary answer is still an answer

no it's not. you're not solving a problem. you're just putting it off.

>>43473856
My point was that blue can get good creatures, just not ones that are good at creature combat

>>43473861
every color has an answer for everything. prove me wrong.

>>43473722
name a color then, and then name something it does not have an answer for. and ill prove you wrong.

>>43473861
>a temporary answer is still and answer
That is the sort of answer a shitty politician gives. Kick the can down the road and let the next poor fuck deal with it. We'll just use this morphine to "cure" your broken leg.

>>43473894
>no it's not. you're not solving a problem. you're just putting it off.

>it is not because a say it is not, nuh uh uh

>>43473910
you first mate. You're the one disputing blue ain't go an answer for everything.

>>43473883
it's fine in commander, obviously you will run as many pongify effects as you can in basically any monoblue edh deck. that's just for lack of options though. when i put a card like scour from existence in my monored edh deck i don't think to myself, mmm, im running this card therefor it's not a shit tier magic card. anyway we're talking about whether pongify is a real removal spell or not.

>>43473940
Not him, but why shouldn't blue have answers. If it didn't it'd get run over by value every time as it can't into board presence

>>43473940
i dispute no such thing. every color has an answer for everything if you stretch far enough and count "temporary answers" and shit cards that nobody would ever in their right mind run. it's a pointless thing to argue for though, since obviously it's true that blue can answer anything - fucking colorless can answer anything, so what's the point of even bringing it up?

>>43473955
>Does it Remove X
>Yes

Bam it is a removal spell, it kills an object and puts a new, different object into play, What you want is a 1 for 1 trade.

>>43473898
Except the only thing Delver has going for it is an efficient P/T with evasion. Delver attacks like a champ. It's good in the exact ways Blue creatures shouldn't be.

>>43473910

Black. Enchantments.

>>43474002
Good, you agree then, blue does in fact have an answer for everything, thanks for playing sand pie.

By the way, why are mono blacks answers for Enchantments?

>>43474005
ok so every color is overpowered, because every color can remove anything. so op! balance when!

>>43473443
>>43473403
>>43473488
It's funny how Pongify is terrible because Blue has so many better answers, but Beast Within is amazing because Green doesn't (although Beast also hits non-creatures... which is something Blue can do already).

>>43473438
Exactly. The fact that you can have no creatures before casting the spell and then wipe the board is the problem. A creature that did it or even an Enchantment that created tokens and had them Fight as separate effects would be fine.

>>43473462
Look, the "it's transmutation" argument is fine, but let's not be stupid. It literally says "destroy target creature". It destroys the creature, it just happens to replace it.

>>43473672
MaRo's job--and Magic's success--depends on keeping the Colour Pie as strict as they can for tournament formats. The notion that he's "autistic" because he doesn't want something that breaks the colour pie is so fucking incompetent that it borders on lunacy.

>>43473719
>He doesn't play Bearforce One.

>>43473774
No one is talking about bad cards.
And, yes, certain things are "supposed" to do things. Part of the success of Magic comes from the colour pie and sticking to it as much as possible. "Bleed" is allowed, but outright going against the colour pie is detrimental.
>Cards that "break the color pie" have been printed since the beginning of Magic.
Yes, and you may not have noticed but they're trying not to do that, because older Magic was kind of a shitfest of random "flavour" that didn't mean anything beyond the card it was printed on. Cards like the ones you listed are, if anything, excellent BECAUSE they go outside of the Colour Pie, and that's the problem. The game should not be filled with cards like those.
Some of them also don't actually break the colour pie, so I'm not sure why you listed them.

Actually, a LOT of the cards you listed don't break the colour pie, so I'm wondering if you really even understand the issue to begin with.

>>43473910
Black has what to deal with enchantments and artifacts?

Red has chaos warp and warp world for enchantments.

>>43474032
what are you even saying mate?

>>43474011
efficient small creatures with evasion is and big overcosted fatties are the only thing blue has going for it in terms of creatures. Especially something like delver which limits how many other creatures you can run.

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>>43474031
yes, i just said i agree you mong. blue has an answer for anything, just like every other color.

>why are mono blacks answers for Enchantments?
>why
lmao
anyway, the answer is scour from existence, nevy's disk, perilous vault, unstable obelisk, oblivion stone

gg no re nerd

>>43474077
Consecrated Sphinx

>>43474077
Blue's small creatures with evasion usually have power equal to their mana cost though, rather than triple.

>>43473861

>Because Blue has answer for everything, a temporary answer is still and answer.

You're right that blue has an answer for everything in the eternal formats (because free counterspells are a thing there).

You're wrong that a temporary answer is still an answer. If you're not in the process of comboing off, a temporary answer means next to nothing. There's a reason Memory Lapse and Remand aren't good cards. And that virtually no bounce spells see play in Legacy.

>>43474115
You just proved yo self wrong mate, glad to know yer an idiot.

Blue is strongest color

gg no re desu senpai

>>43474065
LOL
what im saying is, im making fun of you, because you are whining about how blue can answer anything, when it's a moot point because every color can answer anything because your definition of "answer" includes basically anything that interacts with the threat in question

So, is Notice going to 1 asap?

>>43474059


>It's funny how Pongify is terrible because Blue has so many better answers, but Beast Within is amazing because Green doesn't (although Beast also hits non-creatures... which is something Blue can do already).

Nobody said Beast Within was great, but the fact that it can answer ANY permanent does make it slightly better than Pognify

and don't even pretend like blue can answer ANY permanent. "Answers" have to remove threats. If you return something to their hand, you're not removing it. You're stalling it.

>Look, the "it's transmutation" argument is fine, but let's not be stupid. It literally says "destroy target creature". It destroys the creature, it just happens to replace it.

That's why it doesn't destroy it. It just changes it into a different creature. It's not answering it, it's replacing it with another permanent that you have to answer.

>>43474131

which gets run in what non-edh format

>>43474131
Is amazing for the effect not the body

>>43474132
I'm not denying delver is pushed, but its an odd case due to the fact that it lessens how many other creatures you can run so it has to carry itself in a way.

>>43474167
wow you're really falling apart lmao
yes yes, we get it, and red is also the strongest color because it can also answer anything, and also green is the strongest color because it can answer anything. nerfs to red and green when! also black and white can answer anything wtf! nerfs when!

>>43474171
So what mono black cards that can answer artifacts and/or enchantments mate?

>>43474115

Obvious troll is way too obvious.

And again, stop arguing about the color pie if you're going to make points like this.

Lands are really awful. They almost never do damage, they almost never draw you cards, they almost never remove permanents or graveyard cards, and they almost never tax opponents.

>>43474216
monoblack card that kills artifacts:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3303
monoblack card that kills enchantments
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376462
GOOD
FUCKING
GAME
HEYYYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>43474229
you misunderstand, anon is trying to tell me blue can answer anything and is therefor op, and im saying that technically any color can answer anything so it's a moot point

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>>43474201
a 4/6 flyer for 6 with that ability is great value though.

Sphinx should have been a "must" and not "may draw" I really want to force people to mill themselves.

>>43474208
this butthurt is reaching mythic proportions, which is 8CMC iirc.

>>43474059
>Magic's success--depends on keeping the Colour Pie as strict as they can for tournament formats.
wow
what a falsifiable statement
you're so smart anon

>>43474059
>The fact that you can have no creatures before casting the spell and then wipe the board is the problem.
why is it a problem, exactly? because maro feels like saying it's a problem at this precise moment?

>>43474077

Delver is literally the best creature in Legacy.

Blue still isn't better than the other colors, even if it has a larger number of busted cards.

This argument remains idiotic.

>>43474296
why would i be butthurt? i'm tearing apart retards on the internet, you think i would be here if i didnt enjoy this?

>>43474291
>mono black
>requires green

sure thing nerd, I'll just be taking control of your enchantments and/or artifacts with types of control magic in blue, which is not an answer to you i bet.

>>43474011
Delver has good P/T but it's incredibly situational. It also REQUIRES you to play a "Blue" deck, that works the way Blue decks want to work. Delver by the way would probably work as a Red creature if you gave it Menace.

>>43474115
>Black's answers are colourless
I don't think you understand how colours work.

>>43474131
That's not the kind of creature you'll generally be attacking with. It's more for it's ability.

>>43474132
Yes, but Delver >>43474077 limits what you can do with your deck, and has difficult to achieve requirements. You can't play Delver in any old deck. You need to have a "blue" deck that does things like Blue wants them to be done: with lots of Instants and Sorceries.

>>43474200
Beast Within IS great. Because it's completely out of colour and it's something that Green desperately wants to be able to do. Also, stalling is Blue's answer to things, and all things considered it's a good answer.

>That's why it doesn't destroy it
It literally says "Destroy target creature". And making something complex into a 3/3 is generally answer enough on it's own.

A temporary answer is still an answer (which is why Blue decks filled with temporary Tempo answers like Bounce can still win the game over Aggro decks that rely on their board presence and constant pouring everything into their board state) and downgrading a threat is still answering it. A 3/3 is easier to deal with than a 4/4 with a special ability.

>>43474291
Those cards intentionally cost you twice the board presence that they remove, and are also rare.

>>43474291
>Monoblack
>Requires green

You are not very good at this.

>>43474216
LOTV's ult.

>>43474357
>>43474366
card costs only black to cast, it is monoblack. if you're talking about color identity for edh, you know what cards fit into a monoblack general's color identity that kill enchantments?

ill list em again since you forgot:
scour from existence
nevy's disk
perilous vault
unstable obelisk
oblivion stone

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>>43474296
Damn I was incorrect, Mythic Proportions is 7CMC, I feel so bad now.

Was there not a green 8CMC enchantment that made something big and scary?

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>>43474357
sure thing nerd, ill just make you sacrifice literally every permanent you control, which i guess is not an answer to you i bet

>>43474291
There's a difference between ancient grudge (which can use only red mana to accomplish an effect), and this card, which MUST use green mana to accomplish an effect.

>>43474358

>
A temporary answer is still an answer (which is why Blue decks filled with temporary Tempo answers like Bounce can still win the game over Aggro decks that rely on their board presence and constant pouring everything into their board state) and downgrading a threat is still answering it. A 3/3 is easier to deal with than a 4/4 with a special ability.

that's why mono blue delver is a thing right

tempo decks worked before by splashing for other colors because blue's answers for things on the field were trash. the only good tempo cards delver ran were Remand and Vapor Snag because the latter stalls them while you kill them and draws a card and the latter stalls them and kills them

Remand gets used in Twin because Twin is just going to end the game on Turn 4 if possible anyways. That doesn't make them "good" answers though and it's still a weakness of the color. I don't think the cards are bad (except Pognify and RH, those are shitty), I think Blue has weaknesses and R/G babies who whine about how OP blue is and how it gets special treatment dont' know what the fuck they're talking about (especially when R/G are possibly the best colors in Modern while still being highly represented in literally every format).

>>43474321
>Delver is literally the best creature in Legacy.
You've mispelled Deathrite Shaman.

>>43474358
Delver would work just fine as a Red flyer. Red isn't like Green. It can have flyers. Red is also one of the Spell Colors, so the condition even fits.

Also, loading a deck with spells isn't exclusively a Blue thing. A Red deck could load up on Burn spells and do just fine with it.

>>43474404
It can't be used to destroy enchantments if you don't have green mana. Are you baiting right now?

>>43474453

Delver is much more of a blue creature than a red creature though. the idea that it 'fits better in red' is retarded. Same with SCM.

>>43474216
Thoughtseize

Can any anon tell me when MaRo discusses Ezuri's Predation this on a podcast?

oh boy another thread full of people who don't understand why the color pie exists

I'm so glad none of you will ever have any influence over the game

>>43474453
It's a good reason not to have delver as red as it would be a disgusting aggro card

>>43474476
>Delver is much more of a blue creature than a red creature though

How?
>It flies!

Red gets fliers of all sizes

>It needs spells!

Red loves spells

>It has an efficient aggressive body!

So Red then?

>>43474291

When has anyone ever played Quagmire Druid competitively?

Leaving aside the fact that the card requires green mana to actually do the thing we've been arguing about, it's a terrible card. Just like Pongify is a terrible card.

There's no reason to continue arguing about this: there are colors that (for whatever idiotic reason) have a really hard time dealing with specific threats. Concurrently, though not relatedly, certain colors (primarily black and blue) have a large number of extremely powerful, game-warping cards.

That does not make those colors better than colors that don't have those things. There's a reason very few decks in the eternal formats are 0- or 1-color decks: the best answers for certain threats, or the best ways to gain a certain advantage, usually belong to cards of a variety of colors.

People keep arguing about how color X is too powerful or color Y is useless, when really, the cards are what matters, not the breakdown of the colors.