>Two armies, each led by a general, are preparing to attack

>>43466922
Why not just send a dude to the top of the hill and watch what's happening, then wait for the other side to have the same idea?

>>43466971

How do the hill-top messenger communicate over distance without having their messages intercepted?

>>43466922
If the two armies honestly have absolutely no communication system set earlier, i.e smoke signals, they could just end a courrier AROUND.

have one of the wizards Teleport.

>>43467051
I cast message
I shoot an arrow with a letter
I get a carrier pidgeon
I use flag signals
I get a soldier on top of both hills to shout when the other camp goes over the hill
I look at the third god damned dimension and just go around the fucking valley

Also what the fuck does this have to do with Traditional Games?

If the generals have enough manpower to siege a fortified city, they have enough to clean out this valley. There's no possible scenario in which they would leave a hostile force on their flanks while sieging. What's the point of this puzzle again?

>>43467216

>the Two Generals Problem is a thought experiment meant to illustrate the pitfalls and design challenges of attempting to coordinate an action by communicating over an unreliable link

>>43466922
> General A1 sends a message to Geberal A2 at the same time as General A2 sends one to A1
Message from A1 to A2: We will attack at time 1.
Message from A2 to A1: I will disregard whatever message you send me and attack at time 3. If yu want to win this, attack at time 3 too.

One has to be the alpha male here.

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>>43466922
Isn't this like 40 years old?

>>43467254
not to get all metaphor-autist on you, but what the fuck. Unless the sandwiched defensive line is absurdly long you can just go around them. That's how encirclement works.

Better problem might be to to have an undercover agent that needs to coordinate with homebase about a sabotage operation. Which lends itself better to solutions involving secure communication.

>>43467304
>neither message is guaranteed to reach the other
>this literally helps nothing at all, not even a little

Fire signal or maybe some kind of spy amongst the ranks from one army then he went to the second army with a message. Anyway who the fuck splits army in two when its 1:1 army size situation

>>43466922
If they were actually on hills, instead of in valleys, they would use flag corps. Even though they are in valleys, they will go to the top of the hills and use flag corps.

>>43467547
Alternately; stand on top of hill and look at other army. Wait until time X. If other army attacks before time X, attack with them. If they don't, attack at time X, being joined by other army.

>>43466922
Why are thoughts experiments always so retarded.

>>43467051
Step one: place man on hill with vision of both armies' approach. Plan a signal from him to your army for when to attack.
Step two: place your army as close to the city as you can without being in danger of being attacked.
Step three: wait for man on hill to make the signal indicating the other army is attacking and join in.

>>43466922
Sounds like something TCP already solved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Generals'_Problem

>>43466922
Or they could.just communicate with flags.

Or just go around the valley.

But realistically if they can't cordon off the city and siege it they don't have the manpower to attack it making the whole situation pointless.

>>43467688
Because they are meant to illustrate a point, not to be a realistic scenario.

>>43467743
For most practical applications.
You can reduce the uncertainty but never completely remove it.

>>43466922
go around the valley

fuck's sake

We ask the soothsayer when the portents indicate the greatest chances of success. We assume the other army will do the same and must get told the same day and time. If the other general does not consult his soothsayer he is a heathen and the failure of the attack was due to him not respecting the gods!

>>43467883
Your soothsayer was a fraud!

>>43467960
Heathen! It is your soothsayer who failed, with his paltry sacrifice of a lamb rather than a bull.

All you flag fags are missing a key point. You don't want the enemy to see your message.

>>43468439
Presumably a code is agreed upon before hand. You know. Like most sensitive military communications.

>>43466922
Why would you build a fortified city in a valley rather than on the top of a hill?

>>43466922
Fire a flare gun or a rocket (like the shit from Mulan) as your go signal.

Easy to spot, enemy will have just a short time to prepare and might not even know what the fuck it means, big bang boom middle city dead

>>43467766
This. How the fuck are they going to take it? Sun Tzu said that attacking a fortress is best done when you have ten times bigger army that their own. Clearly, they should sit in those valleys and wait for more troops or new orders - or just one side should attack those fuckers in the valley and hope that the noise will bring help from the other side.

>>43468676
The doesn't solve the problem of agreeing on when to attack, you simply changed the time you wish to agree upon from something like "Monday morning 0800" to "when the flare is sent up".

Just send a few dozen messengers. What are the odds that they'll all get caught?

>>43466922
Just use smoke signals.

>>43466922
Error-correcting codes.

Why don't both armies go stand on the hilltop?

They'd have the high ground, so Anakin would be powerless

Send five messengers bearing the same message- "We attack at 9:00"

Even assuming that 50% of messengers will be lost in transit, there's still only a 3% chance of failure.

>>43466922
Wait for parts of the blue army to quantum tunnel through the hill and eliminate them piecemeal.

>>43466922
What if two messengers are take prisoner in the valley, but the city guard can't be sure they're really enemies or just peasants. The messengers know each other, and have seen each other in the cells, but the guards prevented them from talking or signaling.

Now they're taking them to interrogation, each to a separate room. There they are both offered a light punishment for breaking curfew if they, as a villager, can identify the other one as a stranger who must be part of a besieging army. The local lord also proclaims that his reign stands for justice, and if neither talks they can both go free. But if both accuse the other, only the first one gets the light punishment for breaking curfew, the other one is an obvious liar and will be tortured for information about the siege.

How can the prisoners act in their own best interest when they cannot communicate?

>>43466922
Always send a messenger at dawn, noon, dusk, and midnight. If one is missing you know immediately. Answers are only sent with the next intervall.

>>43466922
This is a trick question - a blazing star flew across the heavens on the twilight of the 2nd equinox and foretold the doom of this city and all its inhabitants. We need simply retreat and wait for this to occur.

Open fire through the hill with the wave motion gun, hopefully the light given off will alert the other army in time to fire theirs and cancel out the attack. If not, you'll wipe out the enemy and your allies, but casualties are to be expected in war.

>>43470251
This anon is a strategic expert, listen to him.

>>43470251
Owoi Owoi Owoi Owoi Owoi Owoi Owoi Owoi owoi

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This experiment runs on several assumptions.

1) That each army is too far away to simply hear the sound of battle
2) That each army has no option to attack the city
3) That any army that enters the valley will immediately be attacked by the city
4) That the city can defeat an army in the field while retaining sufficient defenders to fend off the second army
5) (and most important) That each army can only move in two dimensions
Some solutions.

Send like 20 messengers from A1 to A2 saying "we will attack at the time of [mutual acquaintance]'s birth converted to a 24 hour clock time".

>>43470483
It is incredibly safe for one army to occupy a position in the valley, since the defenders will not be willing to give up their defensive position to repel you. Once you occupy the valley with your full forces, it is unsafe for the enemy to intercept your messengers, so you can immediately call for reinforcements

>>43466922
>each on its own hill
>each ON its own hill
>ON A HILL
Then they can fucking see each other. This is stupid.

One army starts moving slowly, waits for the other to see and catch up. The magical messenger hounds fuck off back inside because they can clearly see they're under attack and the two armies send riders to finely co-ordinate the attack.

Why not just walk around the valley?
Is this flatworld or something?

>>43466922
Is that a question? Because I sure don't see a question there anywhere. So I'll just say...

ok.

>>43466922
This is the Two Generals' Problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Generals'_Problem

>>43472117
3 1/2 hours. Are you a time traveler?
>>43467749

>>43470104
Ooh, interesting variation to the Prisoner's Dilemma.

>>43467688
Call them retarded if you want, but they are used to illustrate the reality of a problem in the real world.

>>43472219
Not quite Prisoner's dilemma. There's nothing about what happens if they both accuse the other at the same time.

>>43470104
>>43472308

> But if both accuse the other, only the first one gets the light punishment for breaking curfew, the other one is an obvious liar and will be tortured for information about the siege.

No point in talking at all, talking would still result in a (light) punishment, and hopefully knowing that you'd still be punished, you can expect the other messenger to follow and also stay silent.

>>43472388
Oh yeah, forgot the other half of Prisoner's dilemma which is that speaking up first should be a lighter sentence than co-operating.

>>43470104
>There they are both offered a light punishment for breaking curfew if they, as a villager, can identify the other one as a stranger who must be part of a besieging army.

This makes no sense, because working on this logic the guards should be able to identify them as strangers, and thus members of the invading army. It makes the assumption that everyone in the city knows one another, which isn't a reasonable assumption to make.

>>43470104
WHY THE FUCK DID I GO TO WAR WITH THE KINGDOM OF LOGIC DILEMMAS

IS THE ENTIRE FUCKING CAMPAIGN GOING TO BE LIKE THIS

>>43472626
You ask the sage to give you the macguffin, he agrees but only if you choose a door out of three.
The sage explains that behind one door will be the macguffin, and the other two will be falling rocks. After your party chooses a door, he reveals another door which are falling rocks.
Unfortunately, your party TPKs and are unable to get the chance to switch.

>>43466922
its called signalling you retard hills are ideal for this

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Okay but explain this to me tg: what if those hills were red, and had 30 white horses on them?

>>43473870
Then it would be after a huge battle where the amount of spilled blood turned the hill red, and the horses left to roam free after their riders were killed.

>implying mouth
>implying hills are made out of human flesh
>implying horses can be teeth
>m-muh riddles

>>43472239
What problem? They already had phones and radios in 1975.