Why do so many people discount psychedelics? Either they're

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>>9131708
>mine
mind*

Clearly there are enormously varied parameters on consciousness. What the fuck even is consciousness? Is it just an emergent property of computation or pattern recognition? It is a property of the universe itself and as such it falls under the purview of physics, not philosophy as some people dismiss it to be.

>>9131708
because only materialists have faith in drugs to achieve anything.

>>9131715
LSD is useful in research because it causes the brain to process all information equally without checking whether it's already archived an opinion on some of it. It quite literally causes you to discard your preconceptions and prejudices.

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I don't believe in concepts like "the brain" or "brain chemistry". Thus I don't value things that supposedly alter those imaginary things.

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>>9131708
>Either they're "just drugs", or they are without a doubt the most profound and culturally significant pharmacological discovery ever.

...Or maybe they just get you so fucked up that you think your pedestrian, pleb thoughts are truly profound.

But all you are is stoned.

>>9131718
Nah, that's not true. There is a large cultural component to the LSD experience, viz. what happens when hippies take acid vs. when scientists take acid.

>>9131816
It's funny because I bet you think you're saying something profound in that post.

But all you are is a brainlet.

>Woah mayn wat if drugs are the troo reality lmao XDD

>>9131719
HAHAHAH
>>>>/x/

>>9131937
Never bothered with psychedelics, but this. This right here.

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Whoa man its like all mental proccesses are ultimately based on brain physiology, and alteration of it can lead to altered mental procceses

whoa like dude whoa

>>9132003
Describing it in those terms, might give you the illusion of simplicity, but you are too immersed in your formalism to understand the meaning behind the symbols...
Regerdless of how those states of mind are achieved, they are part of the possibilites of reality. If anthing it shows that the spectrum of consciousness goes beyond the mundane..

>>9131708

difficult to obtain.

>>9131708
>Why do so many people discount psychedelics?
Because of threads like this. If acid doesn't melt your brain, why are you people so stupid?

>>9131719
Hi choaboy

>>9132049
Man, i have dedicated an unholy amount of time to neurophysiology to pass my neurosciences and neurology courses.
I even took all the optative subjects i could on it plus neuroanatomy because it interests me a lot.

Yet I consider my knowledge to be VERY superficial.
I know the brain can be many things, but not simple.

Of course you can alter your perception and thinking witg drugs. Like no fucking shit sherlock

You are speaking nonsense my man
Define what you mean by possibilities of reality, spectrum of consciousness, the description of consciousness you are using and the fuck you mean by it going beyond the mundane

>>9132087
>Man, i have dedicated an unholy amount of time to neurophysiology to pass my neurosciences and neurology courses.
>I even took all the optative subjects i could on it plus neuroanatomy because it interests me a lot.
The physical workings of the brain aren't really the same topic as the phenomenology of altered states of consciousness. That's like the difference between being an expert luthier who's dedicated an extreme amount of time learning how violins and guitars work vs. being Niccolò Paganini or Jimi Hendrix. You can't have music without an instrument, but physical knowledge of the instrument isn't going to tell you much about how music works.

>>9132087
>Define what you mean by possibilities of reality, spectrum of consciousness, the description of consciousness you are using and the fuck you mean by it going beyond the mundane
Also not him but one of the notable things psychedelics do is turn off your verbal / rational mind and let you experience things in a totally different way, so trying to capture that experience with logical verbal definitions sort of defeats the purpose. It's like being stuck on one channel and wanting a clear picture of how this thing operates on that channel when the thing in question is itself largely defined by how it changes your channel over to a completely different contextual framework. That makes it somewhat state dependent and not very amenable to rationalizing.

They just make you cling to some random thought and believe it's somehow super profound. They don't give you any real insight into anything. If you are unlucky, the thought will be something that sounds almost reasonable if you don't think about it too hard and you will spend the rest of your life lecturing everyone you meet how "everything is, like, connected, man".

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>>9132106
Shit analogy

Im working under the assumption that all mental phenomena are the result of physiological proccesses, and god isnt a prankster who gave us a methaphysical "mind" thingy

Altered states of consciousness would be a result of cellular and chemical proccesses out of what would be considered the norm (if there even is such a thing). That could be (and actually can be) altered by exogenous interventions, be it drugs of some kind of neurosurgery or som like that.

>>9132114
I was asking him his definitions of terms he used, so we could discuss the matter on "the same grouds"

Actually are verbal definitions fit for any concept we "know"? Or mental states? Or emotions?

We both can define what "red" or what we feel when happy and we would probs understand eachother. But is the concept we have the same thing?
Who the fuck knows

I never claimed we could understand or define "our mind" under the effects of psychdelics, because it is impossible to really "know" without going through it.

You are right in the sense of the limitations of language in thinking.
I never said anything contrary to it.
Actually very interesting to think about how our mind would be without language to organize ideas and logic concepts.

I think we arent getting eachothers point and this is degrading. My english is shit too.

OP please what do you mean by psychdelic state of mind.
Nobody denies the effect of psychdelics on the mind, they are just stigmatised, or people just dont really care.

Not memeing i love this discussion

>>9132152
>Im working under the assumption that all mental phenomena are the result of physiological proccesses
Then you didn't understand the analogy because I never implied that wasn't the case with it. In fact I explicitly pointed out that you need physical instruments in order to make music. This doesn't mean that music is the same thing as the physical instruments. Music, like consciousness, mathematics, baseball, language, and money, are all abstract concepts. Violins, brains, calculators, wood, ink, and paper each tell you very little about melody, thought, numbers, games, stories, and economics. The physical things in each of these cases are just tools for allowing the abstract concepts to play out. This doesn't mean there's a magical non-physical metaphysical thing that needs explaining like "hard problem" dualists claim. It just means there's a physical world and there are abstract concepts that don't actually exist at all but are useful fictions to behave around.

>>9132119
/thread

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>>9132119
>>9132180
A more realistic guess is that a hammer will neither always result in masterful craftsmanship nor in broken fingers. A tool is just a tool, some will put it to good use and some won't. Saying an altered state of perception is always going to result in useless shallow insights is as stupid as saying an altered state of perception is always going to result in profound world changing insights.

>>9132195
yeah and this tool is for the weakest people. If you care so much about ''changing perception'', you do samatha mediation. If you want to insight into life, then you you do samatha meditation and reflect on life and the natural and stupid personalization of consciousness, feelings, emotions and whatever is experienced.
Drugs are good for the hedonists and after a few months of use, the effects fade they whine like the turds they are.

>>9132211
Why do you think samatha meditation and every psychedelic drug in existence should all be lumped together as the same tool with only efficacy as the distinguishing factor? I don't think meditation has anything to do at all with DMT. If anything I'd put stimulants closer to single pointed concentration type meditation and NMDA antagonists closer to zen style open awareness type meditation as far as classes of drugs go. Also I don't think you've meditated very much yet since you're apparently still prone to oversimplified black and white thinking.

>>9132177
I still think the analogy doesnt hold.

There is no guitarist, guitar and music.
You are a guitar, who is conscious (whatever that is) and plays music by itself through some not-understood mechanism.

If you feel happy, its because a physical proccess that elicits that mood.
If you hallucinate in any modality, that has a physical base too.

Psychdelics will alter your normal brain functioning and the way you think, perceive things or whatever. That may or may not give you insight on the workings of your mind.

A better analogy imo would be putting siticks, or manually spinning the wheels of a giant watch and infering conclusions on its working and functions through that interaction. Given that you are a smart man with a limited knowledge of whatches or mechanical systems.

On altered states of consciousness, whats so special about them, apart from them being abnormal. As I said above they may help you gain insight on how your mind works, and nature of the concepts of "me" and the perception of the world. But that is not some reality-shaking truth. It is a very old discussion.

Once again, you didnt make a clear point.
Please make one, i get the feeling that we might even agree on it

>>9132262
>>9132177

If you are speaking of what you would consider to be the music on that analogy (consciousness and the variations it may have and we dont experience normally), the same holds.

It may be an interesting personal experience, and you might learn from it, but we arent discovering anything new here.

People just doesnt give a fuck, you see

Still me ranting

Maybe you are speaking about becoming a masterful "musician" and create some sick ass consciousness forms experimenting with drugs and other techniques for introspection.

That would be a very interesting thing to experience tbdesu, but it would be closer to being an artform than anything else really

still normos dont give a fuck about this shit because they are busy filling their meaningless life with meaningless thhings that they perceive to have a meaning so its ok because your perception of things is the only thing that youll ever have, like we should be doing because we are possibly built to do that and put penis in vagina

spurdo sparde happens to be the most accurate phylosophist measured by a word/life meaning ratio

really depolarized my neurons back there

>>9131708
>le LSD makes me smarter face

And I'm sure Rick and Morty is the funniest and deepest show in existence... right leddit?

>>9131708
>abstract modes of consciousness legitimately exist in this universe - they are REAL
So is the idea of an infinite number of anus, with differing sphincter diameters.

PROFOUND

>>9132368
some shallow ones might exist too you brainlet

>>9132195
or you could just not buy into the psychedelic propaganda and effect the same outcomes

>>9132387
You could also just not buy into the automotive propaganda and walk ten miles to the grocery store. What's your point? If a drug can help you get somewhere useful that you could also get to without a drug, that doesn't mean the drug isn't still much better at getting you there. Willpower alone could get you to stay awake and alert enough to do a good job at the office, but that doesn't make coffee obsolete either. Why are you irrationally opposed to utility chemicals?

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Are people ITT speaking from experience or just regurgitating anti-drug memes? In my experience, psychedelics have definitely helped me get a better perspective on things and figure some shit out in my personal life.

And I know the whole "being one with the universe" thing is clichéd beyond redemption, but it's a real feeling that I think everyone can benefit from, whether they get there with the aid of psychoactive substances or forms of meditation. That's what I assume OP means by "psychedelic state of mind."

>>9132440
yeah your argumentation style is indicative of someone who has done psychedelics and will justify their use by any means necessary.
>Why are you irrationally opposed to utility chemicals?
there are none. you're justifying your life's decisions. when will you realize all that you're trying to do is legitimize another social barrier to knowledge? it's not necessary. learn to conform or get fucked, we don't care.

>inb4 "you wouldn't understand you haven't done psychedelics"
yeah? and i've never fucked a child. i've never committed murder. what other subcategory of human experience do i have to have committed in order to feel authentic in my own knowledge? you people how push psychedelics are a legitimate threat to society. moreso than the psychedelics themselves.

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As I expected just about everyone walks into this thread with preconceived conditions. They make assumptions about my position such as:

>Psychedelics make you smarter
>The thoughts you have on psychedelics are profound insights into reality, because they feel like they are
>Psychedelics give you insights into yourself similar to meditation

While some people would try to make an argument for some of these, I never made any of these claims and as such you shouldn't be responding to my post as if I did. That's a straw man and fallacious argumentation should not take place on /sci/ unless you just want to shitpost. And if you want to shitpost get the fuck out of my thread

What I am saying, is that consciousness exists. I am experiencing consciousness RIGHT NOW. So are you unless we delve into abstract philosophical debates regarding solipsism. You are reading this.

Consciousness is a real "thing" that exists within the universe as an emergent property of certain types of physical objects, in this case the human brain and nervous system, and those of sufficiently complex animals

The phenomenological nature of consciousness in day to day life is already strange. There is waking consciousness, and dream consciousness. Within those there are stimulated consciousness when you're exercising for example, or hypnagogic consciousness where you're already falling asleep. These are interesting but we consider them mundane

Psychedelics as a whole, in their large variety of effects, show us that consciousness seemingly exists in a parameter space of a far wider quantities of parameters than we experience in our daily life. We have evolved to live in the physical world as meat sacks that scavenge for food and have sex to reproduce.

Continued in next post

>>9131715
>Muh philosophy major
Biochemistry is still biochemistry, Sigmong Fraud.

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>>9132802
cont.

But consciousness as an element of the universe, which I will call "theoretical consciousness" exists in a far larger parametric space. Psychedelics show us this. As of yet this is our only brush with the vast space of theoretical modes of consciousness that we have encountered

Simple molecules can vastly change our consciousness in ways that are truly profound. Take care reading that last sentence - I am not saying that there are profound realizations while on psychedelics. I am saying that the changes to consciousness, the ways in which your experience of the universe change, are profoundly different from everyday consciousness.

Nobody who has experienced sufficiently strong doses of the right psychedelic would dispute this, and this is well documented scientifically and culturally all throughout history. This has been studied extensively and there is not much room for debate at this point

When you take these first person accounts from ANYONE who has taken a sufficiently large dose of the right psychedelic with a scientifically inquisitive mind during the experience, they will report this. That aside

The space of potential consciousnesses is clearly much larger than we experience during waking life. Are there limitations? Why should consciousness be limited to the modes where the sentient agent experiences the world in a sensorily accurate way? There is no such requirement as psychedelics show us since your experience of consciousness quickly diverges from reality

tl;dr
If you don't understand at this point I don't know how else to explain it to you. Psychedelics show us that consciousness exists in a large parameter space outside the one we usually experience. This should be interesting to anyone curious about the universe. We are a part of the universe and so is consciousness, so this is a part of the universe and as such it is a real scientific topic, not one to be delegated to hippy nonsense just because they used it first

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>>9132818
I'll leave with a quote here and if this doesn't stimulate your imagination I don't know what will. Maybe the general scientific community is not ready to handle this yet.

>It is the very thing which all these religions are yammering about. It's there, it's real. I mean, if you think the world is empty of adventure, then you just haven't been hanging out with the right crowd
>I mean, on a Saturday night within the confines of your own apartment on 5 grams of psilocybin mushrooms in silent darkness, I guarantee you you will believe that Ferdinand Magellan will take second place to you
>You will see things which no human being has ever seen before, and that no human being will ever see again. That's how big that universe is.
>The incredibly constricted space time locus of the here-and-now that evolution has forced upon us for survival purposes is simply one point in an apparently infinite hologram of explorable data that is the human world
>[The] entire world of every science fiction novel and story ever written is miniscule compared to the universes of strangeness and peculiarity that are accessible to any one of us if you will but apply the method...
-Terence McKenna

>>9132802
As I expected just about everyone ambulates into this thread with preconceived conditions. They make postulations about my position such as:

>Psychedelics make you more astute
>The phrenic conceptions you have on psychedelics are profound insights into authenticity, because they feel like they are
>Psychedelics give you insights into yourself homogeneous to rumination

While some people would endeavor to make an argument for some of these, I never made any of these claims and as such you shouldn't be responding to my post as if I did. That's a straw man and fallacious argumentation should not take place on /sci/ unless you just want to shitpost. And if you optate to shitpost get the fuck out of my thread

What I am verbalizing, is that consciousness subsists. I am experiencing consciousness RIGHT NOW. So are you unless we delve into abstract philosophical debates regarding solipsism. You are reading this.

Consciousness is an authentic "thing" that subsists within the macrocosm as an emergent property of certain types of physical objects, in this case the human encephalon and nervous system, and those of amply intricate animals

The phenomenological nature of consciousness in day to day life is already peculiar. There is waking consciousness, and dream consciousness. Within those there are stimulated consciousness when you're exercising for example, or hypnagogic consciousness where you're already falling asleep. These are intriguing but we consider them mundane

Psychedelics holistically, in their sizably voluminous variety of effects, show us that consciousness ostensibly subsists in a parameter space of a far wider quantities of parameters than we experience in our circadian life. We have evolved to live in the physical world as meat sacks that scavenge for victuals and boff to reproduce.

Perpetuated in next post

>>9132802
>As I expected just about everyone walks into this thread with preconceived conditions.
Must be nice to just decide that everybody who disagrees with you does so out of prejudice and not because you're a moron

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>>9132831
That's not what I'm doing but okay. They're bringing up topics I never brought up and responding to them. If that's not textbook straw manning I don't know what is.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si-jQeWSDKc&t=365s (timestamp)

A philosopher in the 1950's, pre-hippie movement, talks about LSD.

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>>9131708
>not microdosing LSD or Psilocybin

>>9132827
It was an expectation of me (a conscious human being) that every person coming inside this thread, if you pardon me the figure of speech, yould already have a previously conceived condition about it, me, and the subject. They present postulations about the position I, OP, hold of the likes of:

> Psychotropic drugs of the psychdelic kind increase youre cognitive habilities
>The ideas organized through speech you have while under the effects the aforementioned drug-class (psychdelics), are profound insights into the nature of existance, because the individual has the subjective feel that they may or may not, but probably are true.
>Psychdelic drugs (from now on referred to as PsychDrus or PDs for short) allow a introspective examination of your self (of the drug user) akin of that achieved during the practice of meditation

While it would probably be a wish of somebody to engage on debate aroun some or all (or none) of these points, the autor (me) never made any of the above claims and such, my post shouldnt be responded to as if I had done so (the autor.) That would be falling into a fallacious argument (man made of straw), and that is intolerabe behaviour in this, our board dedicated to science (/sci/), unless your intentions are those of a feces-writer. If it is your choice to poste feces, begone the fuck of my thread.

These words Im articulating, have the ulterior motive of transmitting to you the idea of consciousness existing (as oposed to not existing). As, Im pretty sure you will agree, Im a conscious being and as such Im conscious AT THIS VERY MOMENT. So are you unless we fall into the ill-defined philosophy-centered argumentations regarding solipsism (or you are not a conscious being or you happen to be in a state of unconsciousness or coma). You are most certainly reading these, my words.

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>>9132874

>>9132821
>>9132818
>>9132802
That's a fuckload of words to say "I think psychedelics modify your consciousness instead of your perception."

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>>9132888
That's not what I said though but okay

>>9132874
Consciousness is a concept which does exist on the greater framework of the universe, as a peculiar property of certain pluricellular beings such as (but not limited to) the human ἐγkέφαλος (enképhalos, “within the head”) and system of nerves, and their analogues in likewise complex animals.

The phenomemenological character of consciousnes in our mundane daily and nightly life is already strange enough (by contrast, the lack of it tends to not be strange). There is consciousness of the waking time, and oniric consciousness (dream-consciousness). Withing those there are exhalted (or stimulated, definitions still not clear [1]) when, for example performing physical exercise, or "falling asleep" consciousness (definitions clearly defined, can also be called hypnagogic). These provoke profound thought to the sharp-minded individual but are otherwise deemed mundane.

PDs in their whole, in the myriad of effects they may elicit (the term provocation may result not accurate, due to the fact that they merely bind to a receptor, thus not properly provoking anithying by themselves, but just signaling the provocation), leart us that consciousness apparently exists in a parameter of space of far wider quantities and qualities (parametrically) than we experience in our day-night cycle following life. We have undergone the proccess of evolution to live in the physical word (not methaphysical, important distinction) as sacks of meat (and more constituents, but mainly meat) that scavenge for edible matter (depends on species and personal tastes) and fornicate to reproduce (also dependant on personal tastes)

Please wait for my next publication of a post (contact Elsevier for pricing info) for further insight on the subject

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>>9132802
>Consciousness is a real "thing" that exists within the universe as an emergent property of certain types of physical objects, in this case the human brain and nervous system, and those of sufficiently complex animals
this is what rationalist normies believe. the best part is that you have faith that you are an empiricist

>>9132956
Can you please justify your post. Do you think consciousness doesn't exist? Who is reading this post you just wrote then, and who is writing this one? You're an idiot.

>>9132959
Either that or he's a panpsychist.

I think it's ridiculous to think only brains are conscious when there is nothing special about the atoms in brains. Thinking only brains are conscious is the anthropocentrism of modern philosophy.

>>9132959
WHOA you BTFO out of that FAG


I bet you think free will exists too, and the proof is free will existing.

>>9132969
>I think it's ridiculous to think only computers are computing when there is nothing special about the atoms in computers. Thinking only computers are computing is the bad thing of modern philosophy.

What a IDEIT u are

>>9132996
Computing is defined as something that a computer does, and a computer is something that computes.

So if you think your analogy holds, then you define consciousness as that which brains experience and brains as that which experience consciousness.

Begging the question fallacy.

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>>9132969
Yeah. It's very clear I think that, as I said, consciousness is an emergent property with a very large or even infinite spectrum of possibilities as a result of certain states in the universe. Sufficiently advanced AI, once we create it, will likely be conscious in some abstract way we cannot comprehend - since why wouldn't it be? What reason is there to believe that consciousness is something unique to configurations of energy that evolved naturally and not at the hands of other conscious objects? There is no reason to believe so

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>>9132996
An emergent property of ant colonies is that they can compute the shortest paths between food and the colony regardless of whether they consciously employ an algorithm to do so. We can compute in our heads so we are computers even if we are not digital computers.

>>9133004
>>9133004
i am criticizing your illogical extrapolation mo-ran

You
>Derp, because brain atoms arent special, the process arising from the brain function is not related to the atoms

Me
>Double Derp, because computer atoms arent special, the process arising from the computer function is not related to the atoms.

Herp

>>9133021
He didn't say that.

You can construct infinitely many different types of computers, using vacuum tubes or transistors it doesn't matter, and they perform the same function.

Is there a good reason to think this isn't the case for brains?

>>9133037
>Is there a good reason to think this isn't the case
Therefore, it must be the case

IDIOT LOGIC

>>9133043
No-one said that, only that the hypothesis brains aren't special is more likely since there is no compelling evidence brains are special.

Indeed, there's no compelling evidence anything in the universe except for you is even conscious in the first place.

>>9132996
Thinking only electronic computers can compute is actually retarded. Computation existed long before ENIAC.

>>9131718
neuropsychological citation needed*

>>9131719
heheh

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>>9132888
Would he be wrong though? What is consciousness if not a subjective awareness and interpretation of ones' surroundings that emerges from continuous memory retrieval and auto-cognition?

Radically change the way sensory input and thoughts are examined and elaborated on, and you have a way of experiencing and thinking about oneself and the world that's entirely different from the "typical" state of mind.

>>9133043
Please justify your assumption that it IS the case, the burden of proof is on you. The anthropocentric default case of the human brain being special and in fact a divine creation, is not a justification to call the contrary claim "there is no reason to think it is special" the one who shoulders the burden of proof. Because in reality, you shoulder the burden of proof

Please justify the idea that the brain is special in its ability to create consciousness when there exist plenty of other examples of emergent properties that can be constructed from numerous physical implementations

The burden of proof is on you. You can't just scream "no no no we're special until you prove we aren't!" because that is a positive epistemological claim whereas my claim is the neutral stance.

>>9132362
this is as reddit a comment as it gets, the cringe is real

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>>9133088
I hate how there exists so many sociological levels of the expression of distaste towards pseudo intellectual ideas.

>True intellectualism where all points are considered, but with reasonable heuristics employed to prune out crap
>Mimicked intellectualism where the points of others are regurgitated
>Cultural intellectualism where nothing is ever actually discussed apart from the concept of intellectualism itself

Unfortunately people on the lower level rungs of the ladder are often unable to recognize the fact that they are indeed on the lower level rungs (Dunning-Kruger Effect).

I also really hate the phenomenon where, since valuable terms are often illegitimately used by people, legitimate usage is discounted.

Maybe this is just the meme culture of 4chan, not sure what else I expect on an anonymous image board I guess. People just write posts because they want to take part, as opposed to actually having something to say, so they latch on to cultural indicators of intellectualism as opposed to actually thinking. Whatever

>>9132461
they dont have any experience. that is why they are so agains it. Like virgins against women on r9k

or...you know........newton didn't do psychedelics.....feynamn stopped doing psychedelics. einstein, von neumannn......the proof is up to you. all you do is try to create another barrier to knowledge without quantifying a knowledge that people who have never taken psychedelics can quantify. are you more happy in your marriage? are your children more successful? or are you just someone who sees outside of some set parameters. do you think these are the identical parameters to truth?

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>>9133125
>or...you know........newton didn't do psychedelics.....feynamn stopped doing psychedelics. einstein, von neumannn......the proof is up to you. all you do is try to create another barrier to knowledge without quantifying a knowledge that people who have never taken psychedelics can quantify. are you more happy in your marriage? are your children more successful? or are you just someone who sees outside of some set parameters. do you think these are the identical parameters to truth?
Your post is a valuable reply to the hippies who think psychedelics provide insights into the nature of human life and how it should be lived.

But it's not a reply to my post. I'm talking about the theoretical nature of consciousness itself and the fact that psychedelics shed more light on the nature of consciousness as an abstract emergent property of physical systems, more specifically shedding light on the fact that consciousness exists in a space far larger than that which we experience in everyday life, and one which is seemingly infinite in its quantity of configurations and unique manifestations.

>>9133146
>the fact that psychedelics shed more light on the nature of consciousness
the perception*

>>9133050
>except for you is even conscious in the first place.
there is plenty of reason to think other consciousnesses exist, in fact, not seeing this is an autistic red flag.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind

>>9133163
The ability to attribute mental states to others is an evolutionary adaptation and has nothing to do with the fact that no other brain is actually conscious.

Everyone else could be a p-zombie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie

>>9133175
mmmm that's autism tho

>>9133177
>Do a good job exploring the underlying mechanisms of natural phenomena
>Don't be autistic
Not him and I don't even know which side each of you is arguing in favor of, but pick one and only one of the two items above.

>>9133175
I didnt say it had anything to do with conciousness, i merely stated you lack the ability to detect consciousness, not everybody else like you implied.

>>9133188
You think you can detect consciousness? Based on what rational evidence? "Intuitively feeling that others are conscious" is not a philosophical argument.

>>9133191
you think yours is the only consciousness? seriously?

>>9133194
The brainlet has to find at least some way that they can feel special. How better to get over your own mediocrity than literally making yourself the centre of the universe.

>>9132818
Right on man, well put.

>>9133191
Because you can observe behavior and see how it is like you, and not.

After observing for awhile it feels intuitive, because you see synchronicity with other people's behaviors and yours.

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>>9131937

Salty hippie.

>>9133194
No. I'm only playing devil's advocate against the position that something is conscious if and only if it is a living brain.

My actual position is panpsychism.

>>9133281
>panpsychism
Never read much about panpsychism but after reading it it basically describes what I've been thinking for a long time

I think consciousness is just an emergent property of sufficiently self referential computational systems.

>>9133285
>I think consciousness is just an emergent property of sufficiently self referential computational systems.
as easy as it is......yeah

there is already a science of consciousness emerging. co-ordination dynamics, an offshoot of physics. living and conscious systems have unique physical attributes and exhibit unique behaviours due to having to resisting the second laws of thermodynamics. these attributes are being applied to the brain. the behaviour of the system is driven by its need to directly mirror the its own environment.

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>>9131708

I have taken a few different tryps and phens and they always held a very very special place in my heart... got some spiritual insights and loved the visuals

however i was so bothered when those deep mind algorithms started pumping out images like this... i thought this was forever a human experience to create these visuals

the fact a machine van now make those images has bothered me so much and made me re evaluate exactly how special psychs really are :(''''''

>>9133342
A machine always could make art. You're a machine.

>>9133344

chemical machine animated by a soul and spirit

>>9133351
Soul and spirit are just abstractions of the behavior of the chemical machine, not literal entities in themselves.

>>9133342
lmao machines can only mimic at best, they cannot invent new styles.

>>9133354

your going to hell... j/k

i love philiosophy... i cant engage in it 99% of the time because i believe that an eternal soul exists encoded holographicly in the energy fields that surround the body

that triggers alot of people

>>9133356
>they cannot invent new styles.
Nothing is really new. Show me someone who's "invented a new style" and I'll show you someone who derived their work from something else that existed prior.

>>9133356
What is a "new style"?

A group of brush stroke techniques and color palettes.

I can assure you "new styles" can be randomly invented if you studied a bit about generative music for instance.

>>9133370
I invent new art styles all the time while they may or may not have some superficial similarities with what others have done in the past, they are never quite the same and I always manage to produce something that is mostly unique and one of a kind.

>>9133374
The picture that anon used is very clearly just imitating Van Gogh starry night. Van Gogh's artistic style is very different from some of Picasso's cubist painitngs for example, styles are like fingerprints, meaning you can identify someone's work and influence through a piece. It is not mearly colors and tools but also the human touch of meaning and symbols.

I was not referring to generative music but to visual arts in particular, generative music AFAIK are tools that use already established musical principles to randomly generate experimental sounds and rhythms but it does not mimic or invent lyrics as far as I'm aware, again missing the human element of invention that is interesting/pleasing/has layers of thoughtful meaning to humans.

>>9133413
>I invent new art styles
So can any machine, in fact I machine can specifically analyse how unique and attractive the new style will seem to another and decide its facets accordingly. It is a relatively shallow thing compared to overall intellect, you are not special.

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>>9133413
>The picture that anon used is very clearly just imitating Van Gogh starry night
AI isn't limited to making pictures that look like other pictures.

>>9133420
A machine has never invented content that is as meaningful to human beings as I or other artists have, it's like saying a machine can write a novel on what it's like being human when it clearly cannot, at most it would imitate some aspects of language nothing more.

Your feelings/thoughts on intellect are your own and not very scientific or creative, quite the contrary much like a machine you are in this aspect.

>>9133342
you can think of it as it resulting from humanity and take pride in that, if it makes you feel so bad. Such things will be peripherals for our minds in the future, eventually replacements. Based on our course in this existence, it was meant to be. We are at the point that our present form is limiting, in so many ways. Mainly intellectually, we require the tech to keep up with the complexity and expansiveness of our scientific and mathematical knowledge. Otherwise the future is individuals being extremely specialised and linked together in networks, so they can capture the whole of even just a small subfield.

>>9133426
That's mearly an amalgamation of preset images that form a very dull copy of one of the most typical landscape settings ever.

>>9133438
>being human
It can though, such things are pretty superficial and overmemed. Again, it could specifically design it's creation to seem deep and insightful to the dumb fuck average person.

>>9133449
So where is this novel an A.I. wrote on being human?

>>9133455
Anon you're clearly uneducated in this area

We're discussing the realm of technical capability, not what has been specifically been done already. You're the same as people saying a computer will never beat us at chess. Look now.

Come back in a couple of decades and you WILL be wrong.

Some technologies are basically inevitable despite us not having the capability yet to meet your standards.

>>9133471
Chess is not even in the same ball park as Art but I'm proud of you for admitting I'm correct on this matter for the forseeable future.

Psychedelics helped me solve some of my problems, like lawlessness and having no discipline.

Psychedelics, to me, are not very fun or amusing. They have always caused mostly arduous and difficult journeys.

AFTER the psychedelics are over is when I see the benefits. Seeing elves, aliens or spirits like McKenna says is unrealistic and down right lies.

I took 3.5g of strong shrooms and did not actually see any fucking visuals. Illusions and mirages certainly arise frequently, but fucking elves, no. I saw trees and thought "those might be big spiders" as they became spiders in an uncontrollable and fleeting view of imagination.

Really, psychedelics are medicine, bad medicine that can fuck you up. Unless something is wrong with you, don't use them. Really, talk to a psychiatrist or psychologist before taking them. I did and he didn't advise me not to take them, and although my experiences were frightening and hard to deal with, they finally cured my depression.

>>9133478
Okay great so now that that's out of the way

All that matters is whether it's possible not whether we've done it. I am currently making it my life's work to create an all encompassing electronic AI music composer for any genre. I know it can be done, I know how to do it, I just haven't done it because I'm still studying the math involved and am still in the design phase.

>>9133483
>Unless something is wrong with you, don't use them
Um, no, if something is wrong with you DON'T take them

And nobody says you see spiders. You probably weren't paying attention and trying to see visuals, or you simply got a bad batch or didn't take enough.

Visuals ARE the "illusions and mirages" you're talking about. It's not realistic visions of spiders or anything, it's distortions of what is real

>>9133490
I agree, its complicated. I took them enough to cure my depression, but I should've said psychedelics are not good recreational drugs because they can set you back.

>And nobody says you see spiders.
No McKenna said he saw things like inter-dimensional beings, gnomes or aliens (entities).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkcY7r2XHe8

DMT only made me experience pure and uncontrollable imagination. It just felt like reality in a kaleidoscope.

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>>9133485
That's cool, sounds pretty creative I encourage you to keep up the good work.

On topic psychedelics have been shown to increase the quailty of life of those who've taken it in controlled conditions according to Oscar Janiger M.D. I believe most of these Psychedelics have been ostracized because as Terrance Mcckenna says psychedelics dissolve boundaries that make people question the shell game of the establishment. It's pretty well known that everyone that's human has DMT in their brains, indeed it is the "Spirit Molecule" for that reason.

>>9133508
>It's pretty well known that everyone that's human has DMT in their brains, indeed it is the "Spirit Molecule" for that reason.

have you actually looked up this claim?

>>9133549
Yes, they're DMT receptors as I've read. http://www.wired.co.uk/article/mapping-brain-dmt-psychedelic-drugs

>>9131712
wow that was helpful...

You people are retarded.

Psychedelics are fun if you're not a dumb faggot. Let's see the gracious precautions that surely tax even the best mind.

1. Water/Salt/Sugar - Pediatric fluid - Gatorade

2. Isolated setting where you can wander like a dumb ox and not get strange looks.

3. A benzo to act as a way back to reality.

Man, taking psychedelics is such a difficult journey oh wow. Psychedelics chew up normies because it distorts their locus of attention and thought aka extraversion.

And then the normies have the fucking audacity, the luciferian pride, to believe their own illusion. Your brain state was different and you have an intuitionistic idea of what that means. Oh wow that means you really did meet Buddha and God and LARPed deist gods.

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>>9133681
Please read the thread. Make your own thread about that topic you're responding to - it's not what this thread is about

This isn't about how fun psychedelics are. This isn't about some journey. This isn't about some quasi-philosophical Buddhism thing.

This thread is about the idea that psychedelics act as a dip into the shallow end of a seemingly infinitely parametrizable space of states of consciousness and that they are likely going to be one of the most valuable tools we use to dissect consciousness and discover the boundaries of "theoretical consciousness"

>>9133485
>Studying math involved
>Design phase

You aint gon do shit buoy

>>9133697
Lol I've already done experiments and have decent results. I need to learn quite a bit more about digital signal processing and machine learning to make it decent. I only got into this recently, I'm a software engineer with a history of good delivery and I will get this done.

The simple understanding that you are more than yourself & connected to each other in a profound way is enough to better the lives of probably 70% of the population.

Anything else is icing on the cake, but what you get as a baseline experience is 100% beneficial.

>>9133004
yeh no tho other things besides computers compute or process information that's literally the whole idea behind quantum computing.

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>>9133359
>encoded holographically on a 2d boundary around the body
>soul
>not encoded on the boundaries of the universe but around the fucking body
bro do you even hologram

>>9133683
first time I did mushrooms I was wondering about 'M Space' or the space of all possible conscious states
I hypothesize it's finite though, or that we just need to be careful with our usage of the word infinity because there are different sets of infinity
You should read Wolfram's book A New Kind of Science (horrible title imo) where he talks about an idea called computational equivalency

>>9133683
>>9133683
>>9133855

entropic brain principle.
desu i dont think it will be psychedelics leading. psychedelics will only be another tool that can be used to enrich neuroimaging technology.

>>9133681
>>Psychedelics are fun if you're not a dumb faggot.
yes boy, nothing beats hedonism

>>9133903

Having fun is not "hedonism". It's having fun. It's even more pronounced when psychedelics, per trip, are cheaper than almost any option for fun. And their massive tolerance boost prevents most people from using it as an everyday thing.

Hedonism is trying to respark the initial fire from some stimulant and having to snort up larger and larger doses to get a ghost of the initial effect. Hedonism is burning some shitty piece of black tar on top of fucking tin foil and chasing the dragon. Hedonism is binge drinking 'till you puke.

You would need to make a new category of hedonism to include the strange ways psychedelics work. In all honesty, the particular content of psychedelia is only 1% of its worth. The majority of worth comes from viewing yourself outside your (regular) self. A garden of time in which you can rub off the dirt of years and the dirt of modern cynicism. And for depressives, that feeling of nobility, of thinking of oneself as a shining being with self-worth, is out of this world.

PS: You were born because of hedonism. What ruins people is the attempt to rocket lift/run past the hedonic treadmill. People don't realize the flattening effect of that treadmill. To be more succinct, what seemed cry worthy as a toddler is childish to a child and the crying of a child is childish to the adult. Our brains normalize experience. Otherwise you'd find strange skeletons with their hands resting on the pelvic bone. Natural selection has a way of weeding out runaway positive feedback.

>Okay so the brain normalizes experience...so what?

It means life isn't about peaks and valleys or pleasure or happiness. As a cognitive agent with a memory of frames of experience, you should recognize how quickly the new and the novel becomes "same old, same old". That saves you from the hell of the "cocaine mouse button", where man seeks external stimulation but increasingly has to find more novel and dangerous ways of producing said stimulation.

>>9133921
nah you can get hedonistic with psychedelics. people do get addicted to them and pretend to be hunter thompson

>>9131935
You want to go around spitting words like "true", "untrue" etc. Yet not one person can tell you or I what the fuck is going on here. And I don't mean explanations of abstract pieces, I mean the whole shindig, what is reality? What is existence? Why is reality? Why is existence? Seemingly unanswerable from our perspective. Which is another point: perspective. We take this super tiny sliver of what we can perceive, throw labels on it, and tell ourselves that we know shit. Anyways I love you fellow entity of this reality.

>>9133342
This looks nothing like psych visuals though, those deep dream images just add eyes everywhere. Machines cant create, and never will be able to. They just pump out what they are programmed to.

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>>9134850
>a guy photoshops a MAGA hat onto an anime girl
>this guy created a meme

>a neural network recreates a Van Gough painting out of cars, eyes, and grotesque duck-pufferfish hybrids
>machines can't create lmao

name a single significant scientific discovery ever made with the assistance of psychedelics other than the alleged story about the DNA double helix

>>9135046
You're using one right now.
>>9132195

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>>9134850
>Machines cant create, and never will be able to.

This thread is fucking /x/ cancer.

>>9135210
Binary computers are just following algorithms. They are Turing machines with no freedom and thus no creativity. Input in, output out.

Quantum computers, however, may be able to tap into creative freedom, just as the brain is a quantum amplifier.

>>9135226
>Binary computers are just following algorithms.

>implying humans aren't

Human creativity is just an extension of the biological imperative to craft new methods of survival or die.

When an artist (like Van Gogh) creates a painting, it's not only for profit (and thus survival), they're also doing it for attention. Attention equals sex, sex equals genetic survival. Whether he was aware that he was doing it for that reason is irrelevant...same as the little dog humping a bunny slipper, he was following an imperative.

You sneer at machines for being GIGO, but humans are no different...just a lot clumsier when it comes to results.

>>9131708

As an avid user of psychedelics I can tell you that they are, in fact, just drugs.

because drugs are bad mkay. dont do drugs mkay

>>9135226
>brain is a quantum amplifier
Nope.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9907009v2.pdf
>We find that the decoherence timescale s ( ∼ 10 −13 − 10 −20 seconds) are typically much shorter than the relevant dynamical timescales ( ∼ 10 − 3 − 10 − 1 seconds), both for regular neuron firing and for kink-like polarization excitations in microtubules. This conclusion disagrees with suggestions by Penrose and others that the brain acts as a quantum computer, and that quantum coherence is related to consciousness in a fundamental way.
You are only allowed to honestly believe in "quantum consciousness" if you also believe consciousness has NOTHING to do with neuronal firing, because Tegmark established they will fire exactly the same way as predicted by classical physics regardless of any quantum effects that happens in proximity to them. The timescales for decoherence aren't anywhere near long enough to let them influence neuronal firing. "Quantum consciousness" is a retarded meme. You don't get to invoke magic by slapping the word "quantum" in front of things you feel are spooky and mysterious and beyond the realm of classical physics.
>Binary computers are just following algorithms
There's a difference between explicitly programming a computer to do something vs. programming a computer to do something you personally don't even understand by training it on known datasets and having it develop a network of weighted nodes. Computers can do both, and the latter, while obviously not exactly the same as how literal biological neural networks operate, is still something you can call learning, especially since the programmer/s themselves don't know how to explicitly write instructions for solving the problem that the computer will end up solving. People are way too harsh in judging AI as "not really intelligent." There's probably a decently sized subset of the general public who will never believe AI is really "AI" no matter how many advances are made.

>>9134560
Read Wittgenstein. Just because you can pose the question "why" doesn't mean it even makes sense to ask. The overly broad nature of the word "why" makes this an issue people fall for easily

Try to phrase the question "why does anything exist?" in another way and you will start to understand

For instance, another way to phrase it is "for what reason does anything exist?" and then you realize that you are presupposing a reason that everything exists, similar to the question "why are you gay?" when the person you're asking may not be gay.

Please justify the idea that there has to be a reason anything exists - I don't think there is.

>Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
-Ludwig Wittgenstein

>>9135046
One significant discovery that everyone keeps discounting is "the existence of profoundly foreign states of consciousness" which everyone who psychedelics soon discovers. And this is more serious than you're giving credit

>>9135521
>the existence of profoundly foreign states of consciousness
^Good point. It sounds really obvious, but you live your whole life up until your first real full blown psychedelic trip basically only experiencing one very rigid and consistent mode of being, and there isn't really anything that can impact you more than suddenly getting switched to an entirely different mode of being after nearly two decades of the same thing. The only comparable non-drug experience I can think of for this is having one of those literal near death experiences of the sort where you trip out on your brain's own trauma induced endogenous chemicals. And change in mode aside, there's also the ego death phenomenon which is pretty insane too since most everyone prior to an ego death probably takes the reality of their own self more for granted than anything else in their lives, and yet you discover that even this most basic sense of stable ground can be pulled away.

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>>9135549
Good points

Basically the only things comparable with regards to the dissimilarity from the normal state of consciousness, without the help of drugs, are:
>The loss of an important family member
>A broken heart
>Near death experience
>Near death experience of your child
>Giving birth of becoming a parent
>Going to a very foreign country for the first time

Other than that, maybe really sentimental "movie moments" where it feels profound (but you normally go back to normal a couple days later lol)

Psychedelics are so far removed that it just can't be described. This alone is a valuable observation, nothing else is necessary to cement them as psychologically, intellectually, and philosophically invaluable

Apparently phychedelics can improve neuroplasticity for up to a year after the experience. They can also cure depression, cure addiction and make you more open to new experiences.

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>>9131937
>It's funny
no it isn't
>I bet you think you're saying something profound in that post.
you make bad bets
>all you are is a brainlet.
and an ad hominem.

doesn't impress me. next.

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>>9135567
Um pretty sure your response is more appropriately applied to the person he was replying to

>>9135561
Dont forget about deep meditation

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>>9135570
>he
drop it

>>9131708
>why do people etc...
Etc...

>>9135572
I agree with Terence on the meditation topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCkPuASC0i4

>>9135573
No roasties allowed in /sci/

>>9135576
Yeah meditation is nothing compared to psychs

Maybe it's great or whatever but psychs are immediate, guaranteed, and far more significant.

All the Eastern hippy nonsense is "sweep under the Ashram tree for 50 years and maybe I'll let you in on one little secret" garbage that has no real substance compared to psychedelics

>>9135581
Phychedelics are a shortcut to a state of mind that can otherwise require years of meditation to achieve. Monks can induce gamma waves in their brain. Gamma brain waves are prevelent during trippy experiences like OBEs. Meditation can also increase communication between the hemispheres of the brain like psychedelics.

>>9135588
Gamma waves might be present on psychedelics (I don't really know if even that is true, but I'm going to assume it is for the sake of argument), but they definitely aren't the main thing driving psychedelic trips. Serotonin receptors are.

>>9135581
What exactly do you mean by 'real substance'? Or 'significance'? I've done LSD before, before you start accusing me of "not getting it", and it was enjoyable and interesting, but not profoundly life-altering so it's interesting how quick you are to dismiss and belittle other things in favor of psychedelics.

>>9135608
Not as immediate, not as obvious, not as apparent

It's like drinking a drop of wine mixed in with a glass of water and saying "If you really taste hard you can kind of notice it!" instead of just drinking a glass of wine itself

>>9135613
What's the drunkeness, though? What exactly is one to notice? What thing of value did you get out of psychedelics that you can't get any other way?

>>9135619
Drunkenness is the dimming of awareness and senses, the exact opposite of psychedelics.

If you don't see what's worth noticing you haven't taken enough or you just aren't interested

>>9135619
Meditators claim that they eventually realize that there was never anything to actually get from the experience. What they thought they were looking for was wuth them all along. Same with phychedelics. Now on with the charade.

>>9135631
Ah, the 'no true scotsman'. I was waiting for that.

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>>9135324
y-you can cum in me senpai

>>9131708
You will probably get a lot of hard core materialists here that will call you a hippy etc for saying this. Psychedelic drugs do indeed alter your neural pathways. This can lead to connections made that would not normally be there. From a more scientific standpoint, you are introducing a perturbation that may even result in a recalibrated "equilibrium" point. I.e. may change the way you view things forever. Ultimately, the only thing you have to understand the universe is your brain. If you alter its structure (in a way that it can still make logical conclusions afterwards) then you are literally altering your consciousness. And who says this isn't just as valid as your previous state of mind (like I said, so long as you are still sane).

>>9135638
No? Not "no true scotsman"

A claim of degree and apparentness

>>9135656
>this thing is significant and guaranteed to be noticed by anyone who has taken LSD
>I took LSD and didnt notice it
>W-well clearly that just means you didn't take enough!
Bam, instead of defending or changing your claim you can just dismiss anyone/anything that disagrees with it.

I still have yet to hear what this thing is by the way. The thing that is so apparent you can't help but deflect every time I ask you what it is.

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>>9135656
To expand on this, this isn't a categorical topic. I personally suspect states of consciousness are a spectrum as I've said in this thread

For instance the attached MS Paint diagram. Normal consciousness in our meat-bag state scavenging for food and having sex, is probably in pink. Meditation or emotional life events like giving birth or something may be dark red. Meditation would probably be light red, and compared to the typical pink yeah meditation is probably something.

But psychs, depending on the drug and depending on dosage, can easily range from light red to light blue and further. I suspect the space would be more accurately represented as one of arbitrarily many dimensions, probably one dimension for each sense and group of sensory organs of the body as well as modes of thinking and emotional states

And this is the questions that psychedelics bring up for me. What is the nature of this space? What are the asymptotes? What are the outer boarders of theoretical states of consciousness emergent from the various exotic combinations of matter into the forms of quasi-brains, that are supported by this universe?

I think this is one of the most interesting questions every, and psychedelics give us the first dip into the deep end of personal awareness and knowledge of the existence of this space.

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>>9135675
>I took LSD and didnt notice it
If you took LSD and did not notice a profoundly changed state of consciousness during the time period when it was in effect, then
>Your experience was a statistical outlier
>You personally are a statistical outlier
>You weren't paying attention
>You didn't take enough
>You didn't take real acid - this is a great possibility since lots of the stuff distributed is literally fake

It's a drug, it has well known effects and these effects are rooted in the physical body and its interactions with your neurotransmitters. Just because someone took an aspirin once and their back kept hurting doesn't reject the effects of aspirin. Be a bit more scientific.

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>>9131718
this. Having social interactions with zero social boundaries is amazing along with the fresh new perspective on everything. I recommend taking it with your intellectual friends or very good colleagues and bouncing ideas and thoughts of each other. You might just end up agree with each other for 4 hours but its totally worth the new glance into reality. Also mediate for that sick presence. Keeps you sharp

meditation: Slowly building a house from foundation up
psychedelics: Getting a glimpse into some else's mansion, or your current shit one

>>9135689
Okay, finally we're getting somewhere! I thought it was you the 'profoundly changed state of consciousness' guy, I should've just assumed it was you from the start. I'm not sure I'd call it 'profound' but sure I noticed a change in my 'state of consciousness', but it's not like that hasn't happened to me before. Every time I get drunk, or high on weed, or even just focusing on a stressful task my state of consciousness changes. All in different ways, and arguably LSD has done so more than anything else, but you throw around words like 'real substance', and 'significant', and 'profound' with such frequency that it certainly seems like you got something very different out of it than I did.

The most 'profound' thing I realized is that my brain has a much larger influence over my perception than I realized. At the time I thought I was neck deep in profound and deep thoughts about the universe, but upon sobering there was very little of any actual substance to the thoughts, and it seemed more like I just was given the impression of profundity, rather than actual (much like visual hallucinations can give you the impression of movement, despite there being no movement in reality).

>>9135731
I agree with you on your observations of the illusion of profundity. What I'm talking about is the difference from typical experience, regardless of what it is. And the range of potential conscious experiences of hypothetical physical brains.

LSD can make you feel supreme joy and extreme misery in the span of a single minute. What is hypothetically the most joy a brain can feel? Are there physical limits? Does the universe support joy 10000000x stronger than anything the human brain can experience? What kind of brains can house consciousnesses that can experience this?

Those are the questions I'm interested in.

>>9132211
Straight edge tightass buddhist spotted. Many buddhist masters agree on positive effects of psychedelics behind the curtains. Due to stigmatised status of those substances, they wont go public.

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>>9135740
Well I certainly think that nothing anyone could contrive in our universe could literally kill a normal human through happiness. But this is where LSD steps in, if I'm following your reasoning correctly, that 'normal' human though processes can't be overloaded with happiness, LSD clearly (or at least, it certainly seems the case) can stimulate emotions much more than normal processes.

You've reminded me of something similar I noticed when I saw this graph, which displays how strongly our three different cone cells respond to various wavelengths of light. Even when the 'red' cells are at their peak response, the 'green' ones are still somewhat present, or the highest blue response still has a little green and red response. In other words, there is no color in reality, no wavelength of light, that will cause 100% blue response and 0% of the others (without being nearly imperceptible at the far ends of the spectrum). But we have the cells, and our brain interprets whatever they say, meaning you could theoretically directly simulate that sort of response through the optic nerves, and you would see color. You would a see a blue that was 'bluer' than any blue you'd have ever seen in reality. What would these 'pure' colors even look like? No doubt LSD messes with the interpretations of these colors to some degree, making things look more vibrant, quite possibly into this 'impossibly vibrant color' area.

>>9135798
>But we have the cells, and our brain interprets whatever they say, meaning you could theoretically directly simulate that sort of response through the optic nerves, and you would see color. You would a see a blue that was 'bluer' than any blue you'd have ever seen in reality. What would these 'pure' colors even look like? No doubt LSD messes with the interpretations of these colors to some degree, making things look more vibrant, quite possibly into this 'impossibly vibrant color' area.
Awesome observation and this is EXACTLY what I'm trying to get at in this thread but you said it well

Like you said, what the fuck happens if you stimulated the blue cone cells completely? Similarly what happens if you stimulated all receptors related to happiness in the "most happy" chemical way?

What happens if you grew an artificial brain and gave it 1000000x as much of a physical potential for chemical happiness due to its receptor configuration or whatever the relevant parameter is, and stimulated all of them? Is it 100000x as happy?

Is "happy" a universal parameter of consciousness? Does my "happiness" feel the same as yours? Or is it all relative? Maybe "happy" is only defined to the conscious entity as the opposite of "unhappiness". Maybe pleasure only exists as the exact opposite of pain with regards to the state of consciosness. I'm brain storming. But maybe it's all relative and our personal experiences are all completely off, but we never know

You know the thought experiment of "is my blue your red"? etc. where none of us know that the other see colors differently because we all describe them using the same words? Well similarly what if my happy is your miserable but we define them differently based on the specific ways our neural structures grew? And in that case what is the nature of these experiences we have? Where do they exist in the universe?

I don't think I'm explaining this well.

Here's something anon that I enjoyed a few years ago
http://psychedelic-information-theory.com/pdf/PIT-Print-Web.pdf

also
http://www.math.utah.edu/~bresslof/publications/01-1.pdf

>>9135651
>he reduces anything to matter and follows the statements of materialists
>he does not believe he is a materialist himself

>>9135581
>>Maybe it's great or whatever but psychs are immediate, guaranteed, and far more significant.
this is what hedonists believe. drugs do not get you any skill and once the effects stop you go back to square one

>>9135903
Jesus Christ I swear to God this is the most misunderstood topic ever

I NEVER SAID THAT. I did not mean "immediate, guaranteed, and significant" - hedonistic satisfaction and enjoyment

I meant immediate, guaranteed, and significant modifications to normal waking consciousness. Did you even read the thread? You do not have a nuanced view of the topic - you're not even talking about the same topic as me

Fuck it

>>9132211
What a cuck

its all nice shitposting and being all le deeply intellectual behind your computers and comfy homes which actual intelligent people invented who didnt waste their life and braincells on fake crap that only miserable losers use to justify their uselessness and fail at life by thinking they know some great mysterious truth that the rest of hard working sheeple and scientists dont

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>>9135324

>dat rebuttal

>>9131708
The drugs that have medicinal uses use a dosage below what would cause a hallucination.

>>9135520
wittgenstein went back on the book you took the quote from. he said it was all wrong and wrote another. jokes on you.

>>9136930
That's just a meme, he never actually said "my last book was wrong," a couple of popular writings about him made that assumption based on a particular interpretation of both books which is far from definitive. There are other interpretations of the two as compatible if you don't misunderstand what he was actually trying to communicate with them.

>>9136787
so is this what projection looks like?

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>>9131708
Because most of the people who made them popular were taking extraordinary amounts and didn't mind if their followers did the same. Not to mention that stupid fucking slogan, "Turn on, Tune in, Drop Out". I've wondered for a long time if Leary and McKenna were fucking trolling as part of some underground psychedelic experiment.

You want psychedelics to be brought into the medical world where they can do good? Be smarter than those idiots, be a little more like Albert. Be more like Carhart-Harris. Maybe veer into John Lilly territory without taking his ideas too seriously.

Here is what the discoverer of LSD said in 1984 about how he thought they should be used:

"LSD should be treated as a sacred drug and receive corresponding preparation, preparation of quite a different kind than other psychotropic agents. It is one kind of thing if you have a pain-relieving substance or some euphoriant and (another to) have an agent that engages the very essence of human beings, their consciousness. Our very essence is Absolute Consciousness; without an I, without the consciousness of every individual, nothing really exists. And this very center, this core of the human being is influenced by these kinds of substances. Therefore, excuse me for repeating myself, these are sacred substances. Because, what is sacred if not the consciousness of the human being, and something which activates it must be handled with reverence and with extreme caution."

>>9137143
>Maybe veer into John Lilly territory
>After three weeks of hourly K injections, Lilly phoned the White House to warn then President Gerald Ford about "a danger to the human race involving atomic energy and computers." A White House aide fielded the call and, although quite aware, of Dr. Lilly's impressive credentials, was not convinced of the urgency of the matter, and informed him that the President was unavailable.

>>9137143

It's not necessary to treat LSD as a "sacred" drug. When I see people write shit like "Absolute Consciousness", they're being imperfect word smiths. For a melancholic, it's pretty nice feeling like gold. All the shame in the world melting away in an ocean of mental tears...

At the same time, I watched the first 120 episodes of Pokemon on a weekly ration of AMT + 25cNbome + MXE Don't. The first episode only. Don't let the guy with childhood issues steer the ship. Oh yeah and the Magmar battle.

But back to imperfect wordsmithing, realize that most people are venal and vain. Even LSD can't mask that need to stake spectacular glory, even if the glory is combining hyperbolic terms. "Absolute Consciousness"...It's something a fucking Ashkenazi would write to sound smarter.

>>9137283
please stop posting

>>9137287

?

I'm just saying, those words are the impulse for a sign of power. It's foolish magic.

Actual power is something unsaid and unspoken. "Absolute Consciousness" is a hideous golem of a word.

Isn't the brain just highly organized matter with the emergent property of subjective consciousness/awareness?

Don't studies show that our "subconscious" or unthinking part of the brain (the part where thoughts don't float about seemingly at random) is the progenitor of real action?

Isnt the "conscious" part of the brain simply a deterministic observer?

Aren't drugs just more matter introduced to the emergent brain?

Don't drugs fundamentally alter the functioning of the brain insofar as the drugs exist and interact with the brain matter?

Aren't these experiences just as real as our normal illusions?

>>9137291
you either have a mental illness or you're 14 and think word salad makes you sound deep

The brain is matter and consciousness is a byproduct of at least human brains.

So consciousness is a physical part of the universe.

It probably exists in many brains beside humans.

The regions responsible for emotion and other "chemical hallucinations" like fear adrenaline and chemical based behavior are no different than external drugs probably.

>>9137317
The way i look at it, is the brain reproduces a simulation of its environment/the kind of things that happen in the environment. What we experience is the simulation, but all the important calculations and information processing and integration etc, we cannot see or experience at all.

>>9131708
With what little control a person already has in life it just boggles my mind that they would decide ingesting a substance that alters the one thing you can control as beneficial to themselves.

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>>9137207
You're quoting that as if it's some conspiracy theory crackpot statement

...But in the near future, nuclear weapons and artificial intelligence will come to be among the primary threats to the human race

So yeah

>>9137619
It was more the part where he was injecting Ketamine every hour for three weeks straight that was the point there. The calling the President to warn him about computers destroying the planet with atom bombs was just the conclusion to that set of circumstances.

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>>9137634
Okay whatever

As I said before many times this thread is not about drug culture, it's not about "mind expansion for personal growth", it's not about social movements, it's not about any of that

It's ONLY about the use of psychedelics as a tool to probe the area of "theoretical consciousness" i.e. what sorts of consciousnesses are supported by this universe. It gives us a peek into the idea that this "space" exists. Since we know consciousness is real in some way, since we are conscious. So what is the space of consciousnesses? I mean "space" in a quasi-mathematical sense quite frankly the same way gravity can be defined as a vector field.

Consciousness can clearly be defined as a continuous field over all over all matter where matter close to brains for instance, or surrounding neurons, has a higher consciousness score than random rocks in the desert.

So what are the most abstract manifestations of consciousness? Psychedelics show us that abstract manifestations do indeed exist since it lets us experience them.

>>9137619
how come you think the pairing of AI and nukes would be the biggest threat? I think AI for sure but I'm more concerned about AI psyops and shit

>>9137722
Nukes are our current biggest weapon in terms of energy released

AI psyops IS AI. It's an application of AI. That's the issue. All of the potentially malicious applications of AI.

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>>9131708
This thread is all the answer you need. A lot of people are tight-asses who think they know what a psychedelic experience is because they have had limited encounters with weed, alcohol, pills, etc, and think that they can understand LSD or mushrooms from that perspective.

The number of people who have taken a moderate dose of a psychedelic drug and would describe their experience as normal, mundane, or even easily explainable is close to zero. That alone makes it worthy of greater consideration than 80% of this thread gives it.

Unfortunately, the psychedelic experience is a big pill to swallow (pun intended) and it seems doubtful that a real thoughtful understanding of it will ever permeate the mass consciousness.

>>9131816
I believed this was the case until I tried LSD. What you're describing is more like what weed does.

The self discovery that happens with LSD and psychedelics, at least in my case, didn't happen during the actual trip or experience, it happened well afterwards. I gained information about myself that I had really never considered before and was able to change myself for the better as a result.

>>9137782
This. I can't stand it that there are people out there who would sooner try cocaine or amphetamine than LSD. It's an unequivocally profound experience, for better or worse, but I fear that may be the very reason it will remain illegal for the rest of our lives.

That said, I've almost certainly gone too far in my own experimentation with the drug. After you've taken it about a half-dozen times, you run out of things to learn about it (though you can always learn more about yourself). Now I desperately want to see it mass-produced and analyzed in the same vein as Prozac or lithium. At therapeutic doses I believe it could have nigh unimaginable potential. Or, at least, it could have a hell of a lot more potential than most would give it credit for.

I think there have already been a few studies with MDMA, and the results were very promising. Yet it's still just as illegal as it ever was.

>>9137387
K grampa

>>9137855
Its been half a year since i tripped and im still sorting through it. I can relate. Once or twice in a lifetime experience IMO.

>>9131949
Might not impress you but he's not wrong you arrogant cuck

>>9133104

This. You need to debate this irl with actual experts who are willing to partake and are genuine, 4chan is an echochamber and 100 IQ brainlets will flood the thread to spam it with ideas and arguments they stole or heard from other people, 90% of this board are retards who are too deluded to realise it

>>9138189
Yes he is you arrogant cuck

So many faggots ITT never even tried psychs yet they talk shit

>>9138605
He's wrong because nobody in this thread is saying that you fucking moron

>>9138644
EDIT: As in nobody is saying drugs are the true reality in the way he said

>>9137319

What the fuck are you talking about? "Absolute Consciousness" is the term that would be used by 14 year olds. Because it sounds so awesome.

But it explains absolutely nothing. As I said, it's foolish magic to awkwardly fashion such a word. You can see this in a lot of "philosophy" where the so-called "lovers of wisdom" create verbal diarrhea. When someone puts down such a phrase, it's a premature ejaculation of a concept. "A hideous golem of a word" is an accurate description of what certain people try to create when they're in a psychedelic state.

What the psychedelic experience creates is something unsaid and unspoken. You want to call my shit word salad but you take at face value the words of any wanna-be shaman/intellectual. If anyone has mental illness, it was the idiots who had the misfortune of coming across LSD and stipulated retarded shit like "You must have plates of fruit and try each one out...".

I say this as someone who had 200+ trips in the past five years. There are a lot of people who can't simply chill and watch the show, so to speak. They want "deepness" but don't realize the way deeper into the heart of the forest is through play and imagination.

When you've wrestled the snake of the earth and pulled the eagle out of the sky and went out into the field and watched the sun rise with an almost holy reverence...Well honestly I think the people popularizing psychs had shitty trips because they needed to dominate everything with their mind. They were professors and professionals after all.

No chill.

>>9138660
You're making a fool of yourself

>>9138665

And you're making a harrying woman of yourself.

So it's important because you feel like it and have nothing but "feels" to justify it?

Don't worry, all that shit will become legal in USA eventually, so stop trying to look "profound" and just keep consuming all those toxic compounds. :)

>>9138679
DMT is not toxic at all it's so safe that no one has ever died from using it.

>>9138679
If you read the thread you would have came across the part of it being practically indescribable

>>9138679
>So it's important because you feel like it and have nothing but "feels" to justify it?
>Don't worry, all that shit will become legal in USA eventually, so stop trying to look "profound" and just keep consuming all those toxic compounds. :)
You're such a fucking idiot

Like I said very few people even remotely understand the points I've made in this thread.

The realizations made on psychedelics aren't what I am calling profound. The fact that LSD exists is what I am calling profound, more specifically the existence of profoundly foreign states of consciousness. Which brings about questions regarding the theoretical limits of consciousness.

>>9139649
Wow, 215 posts later and youre still reiterating the same almost verbatim point to people kek. Quite impressive.

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>>9139725
Autism at work

>>9132119
/THREAD

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>>9139817
That's not what this thread is about please learn to read

>>9132119
This is a fairly reasonable assessment of what LSD is like when people try to use it "spiritually". Of course mega-dosing and falling into your own consciousness doesn't exactly make for a productive time. But I think there's something important to be said about what happens when people take smaller doses. It does something significant to your mind that can indeed give you a new perspective. How much meaning you want to ascribe to it will be 100% up to you after the trip is over.

It should be obvious that a full-blown psychedelic experience isn't going to convert many skeptics.

>>9140153
I dont remember one insightful thing from any of my trips. Most memorable thing is the lability of mood, the colours in the clouds, my friends face breaking into fractals, the warping of linoleum and dancing of patterned wallpaper, pokemon becoming vivid and things in it moving anout when hey werent supposed to. Eyes in everything. Birds in the trees wherever i went. The grass in pictures swaying. The frightning change in the atmosphere and vividness of pictures. The swaying of grass when it should be still. Emojis looking weird on chats. Carpet flaws breaking symmetry. The fear of derealization.

And last but not least. When i closed my eyes once and forgot i existed.

I had interesting thoughts and strong mental imagery but dont remember shit significant.

>>9135567
Nobody is here to impress you because you are fucking stupid.

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Anyone here done DMT?