Why do governments put fluoride into the water supply if we get

>>8791010
The fluoride addition was an attempt to bolster dental health among populus

The actual fluoride itself is water soluble and in such a low concentration that toxicology evidence is non existent. You'll pass out any extra fluoride that remains assuming you even drink that much water. There isn't any evidence that fluoride in the water at the <1ppm level is harmful in anyway

And sodium and fats in excessive amounts is bad for your health. Enjoy neuropathy and heart disease

>>8791035
Oh look. It's another dogma student. Fuck off.

>>8791071
>ask paranoid ass question based on myth
>pissed when someone gives him a logical response
Fuck off back to /x/

>>8791071
What do you you want me to say? That fluoride is totally 100% toxic and everyone in the country who drinks it is really poisoned and dying of fluoride poisoning even though there's been no documented deaths at all from the sodium fluoride in the water?

You'd die of water poisoning before ever coming near the toxic effects of the fluoride

>>8791096
I'm not saying it's toxic. I'm just asking WHY we put it into water? We get it from toothpaste. We know scientists have been wrong before. Have we really studied the long-term effects on people? How can we be so sure that it doesn't cause problems?

>>8791084
>le go bk home conspiracy feeeg stop questioning scienz
I'm sure you'll get along well within the scientific community.

>>8791035
>The actual fluoride itself is water soluble and in such a low concentration that toxicology evidence is non existent.
In other words, it exists in such low concentrations that it can't do anything at all, i.e. there is no reason to do it.

Unless it's homeopathic fluoride ;)

>>8791121
>I'm not saying it's toxic. I'm just asking WHY we put it into water?
Clearly you imply it when you post a picture of a spook "fluoride alert" with a toxic symbol as your image

>yea this one scientist was wrong in the past with my erroneous example of sodium intake which we know Americans get way too much of that must mean any evidence that fluoride in the water is harmless over the last 60 years is false

>>8791147
No its in such low concentrations that it has no toxic effects at all

The ld50 of sodium fluoride is 70ppm or something stupidly huge. Most tap water is <1ppm

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Look at this. Countries with no water fluoridation do just as well with countries that do put fluoride into their water.

It's so pointless and we don't know the long term effects. Could it possible raise the risk of some diseases? We have no idea.

We should stop all fluoridation immediately. Even if it is perfectly safe it still costs money to do it.

>>8791010
Medication of the public water system should be illegal.

That is the only thing that is wrong here.

>>8791084
It's not a myth that fluoride is added to the water in the USA.

Also I think there should be no medication in the public water supply whatsoever, simply as a matter of fundamental principles.

>>8791010
IT'S TO TURN THE FRIGGEN FROGS GAY

>>8791121
>I'm not saying it's toxic. I'm just asking WHY we put it into water? We get it from toothpaste.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation

Why didn't you just fucking Google it? /sci/ really needs its own QTDDTOT threads

>>8791157
>Clearly you imply it when you post a picture of a spook "fluoride alert" with a toxic symbol as your image
I see you're going with the ad hominem attack. Look at the picture I posted.

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>>8791162
>>8791162
>>8791162

>>8791163
>based on fundamental principles
Such as?

Do you also bitch about being required to get vaccines to go to public school?

>>8791167
>don't attack the clearly inflammatory image I posted with my thread. I'm TOTALLY not alluding to conspiracy tier arguments which I've clearly demonstrated

>>8791171
Vaccines prevent against deadly illnesses. Water fluoride prevents tooth decay (and not even well, look at >8791160).

Why do we treat the SYMPTOMS of a high sugar diet? Why doesn't the government go after the sugar? Big money? Yes, big money.

>>8791084
make logical critical claim
>hurr durr get back to /x/
sure showed them now!

>>8791174
>>8791160
This is a "conspiracy"?

>>8791176
Because it's way easier to get people to drink fluoridated water than to ban kids from eating and drinking sugary shit

>>8791171
>Such as?
Right to bodily integrity, right to refuse treatment, etc..

>Do you also bitch about being required to get vaccines to go to public school?
No, that makes perfect sense. You can just not go to public school if you really don't want vaccines.

>>8791182
But it doesn't even help. If they just looked at the data they would see that fluoridation isn't any better than no fluoridation.

>>8791157
You don't have any reading comprehension.

The point is that such low concentrations can't have any effect on tooth decay, so it's completely pointless. Doing something without any evidence that it would work is unscientific, and mass medication with no dosage control is unethical.

>>8791180
There's a retarded conspiracy on par with the "the government is putting shit in our air" crowd that says fluoride in water has neurologically toxic effects and it's mind control. Op apparently doesn't remember when /sci/ was bombarded with this retarded shit for weeks until it evolved into flat earth bullshit

>>8791189
>The point is that such low concentrations can't have any effect on tooth decay, so it's completely pointless.
No it does have dental benefits. See
>>8791166
It apparently shows great success in kids

>>8791189
>with no dosage control is unethical
It is regulated to be controlled between 0.5-1.5ppm. If it goes above that filters are usually distributed to control it. There are many mountain cities and towns that have to defluoridate their water because they receive water from mountain streams naturally that carry excessive amounts of it

>>8791190
I am OP and nowhere did I say that fluoride has neurologically toxic effects and it's mind control.

You seem to be arguing with a point that doesn't exist in this thread.

>>8791183
>Right to bodily integrity

you know it's bad when they resort to rehashing Dr. Strangelove arguments 60 years on

repeat after me guys:

MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH PRECIOUS BOOOOODILLLYYYY FLOOOOIIDDDSS

>>8791195
>everybody drinks the exact same amount of tap water

>>8791196
>posts an inflammatory image with his thread
>no guys I swear I didn't Google anything or read anything please spoon feed me and debunk my initial assumptions about the reasons and use of fluoride in the water

It's an effective form of medicine but has side-effects like any other medicine.

I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure fluoride is supposed to be a topical treatment for the teeth, not something to be ingested.

I could understand putting fluoride in the water supply, it makes sense, but I wish it wasn't there personally, others may disagree.

>>8791199
There is an average tap water consumption yes. How do you think group studies work or populus studies work? Using lots of samples gets rid of inconsistencies in the amounts of relative consumption hence a fucking average

>>8791202
Do you usually attack people's appearance and ignore their arguments?

That is the equivalent of what you're doing now.

>>8791204
>It's an effective form of medicine but has side-effects like any other medicine
There are no known side effects from aster fluoridation after 60 years

>not meant to be ingested
It's water soluble, you just piss it out. So long as it passes the teeth it's fine.

>I'm not an expert
Clearly

>>8791213
>don't attack my implications that I'm making indirectly because I didn't directly say it that means I didn't say it at all even though I'm purposely being inflammatory

>>8791213
>I'm not saying it's X but...
That sounds pretty indicative.

>>8791010
The nation that does it also had the world's largest aluminum refinement industry when they started it. Making aluminum creates a whole lotta fluoride, and it's very hard to get rid of legally.

So, just have the people drink it - end of problem.

>>8791239
>>>/x/

>>8791239
It's not hard to get rid of toxic waste you realize that? Dozens of chemical companies do it all the time legally. This isn't anything special

I haven't brushed my teeth in weeks, but I do drink water.

You know exactly (((why)))

>>8791286
>Can't afford to go to a dentist, entire mouth feels like a giant cavity

yeaa boyyye health care is exspensive, shoulda just brushed em

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I understand what OP is saying.

Not in a conspiracy herp derp sort of way, but honestly, why does the US government put fluoride in our water? Since when and why does the government care so much about our teeth? What if I don’t want my teeth to be perfect and white as everyone else’s? Why does the government make this choice for us? I suppose if they found something to make our hair grow nice and shiny they would put that into our water supply as well?

I don’t believe in conspiracy theories, in fact they annoy the hell out of me, but the question of why the government cares so much about our teeth is a valid point.

>>8791296
It's just a question where people don't have the full information necessary to make a proper decision. They have those in video-games, like in mega-man where you have to jump down a hole but you don't know if it will kill you or take you to the next screen

>>8791288
your entire mouth should be a giant cavity anon

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>>8791304
>Drilling ensues

>>8791296
>why does the US government put fluoride in our water? Since when and why does the government care so much about our teeth?
It was an attempt to reduce dental cavities sponsored by various dental health experts and agencies like the ADA
>What if I don’t want my teeth to be perfect and white as everyone else’s?
Then who cares the addition doesn't negatively affect you at all. Don't drink from the tap or just drink it because it can't harm you
>Why does the government make this choice for us?
They don't directly. It was about a democratically elected thing. Also it's your local governments not really the state or fed
>I suppose if they found something to make our hair grow nice and shiny they would put that into our water supply as well?
Beyond the scope of the argument. This is purely hypothetical and made up
>I don’t believe in conspiracy theories, in fact they annoy the hell out of me, but the question of why the government cares so much about our teeth is a valid point.
It's not really a point. Because it's not the whole entire Fed doing it. It was acts passed by your local representatives.

>>8791197
nice argument

>>8791239
They don't use sodium fluoride, they use Fluorosilicic acid which comes from fertilizer production. Not aluminum refineries

>>8791147
r u a retard

>>8791340
>Fertilizer

You mean that stuff that runs off into the water supply and causes havoc? Organic gardening is the only answer I can think of..., but I'm not an environmental scientist I always wondered if someone could find a lake covered in algee and figure out a way to make it fine, without getting rid of the fertilizer, I've yet to see an answer

>>8791329
>It was an attempt to reduce dental cavities sponsored by various dental health experts and agencies like the ADA
And they don't do this for any other health problem epidemic because?

>>8791386
This one is super easy to do.

What other simple health fixes can be easily, cheaply implemented with hot any real new infrastructure costs or maintenance? Vaccines are another one of them and benefits society greatly if all it's population is properly protected.

>>8791358
You know water comes from hydrogen peroxide synthesis that's used in drugs, rocket fuel and all this nasty shit. We should ban water while we're at it because apparently you have qualms on the source of some chemical and what it produces

Genuine question here.
Isn't aqueous hydrofluoric acid a weaker acid than hydrochloric acid? Wouldn't then in your stomach the fluoride react with your stomach acid (hydrochloric acid) and form hydrofluoric acid which is very dangerous?

Is the flouride too inert to react? Is the concentration too low to cause noticeable damage?

>>8791433
Removing corn subsides. It has a NEGATIVE cost for positive impact.

>>8791261
It's not hard, but it can become very expensive.

>>8791439
>Isn't aqueous hydrofluoric acid a weaker acid than hydrochloric acid?
Hydrofluoric acid forms an extremely acidic conjugate with water which makes it way stronger than hydrochloric acid.

Hydrofluoric acid will eat through virtually everything that's not a polymer like polypropylene plastic. You said it yourself aqueous HF is extremely toxic and dangerous

>>8791446

Not really, businesses usually have secondary disposal companies to get rid of it. There are provisions in place set by the federal. Government on how to handle and dispose of dangerous chemicals. Sodium fluoride being a solid and only really toxic if ingested as well as a skin irritant. It's not exactly super fucking dangerous and has its own special waste disposal codes. It can probably be thrown in W033 waste for aqueous solutions

>>8791459
pKa of HF: 3.17
pKa of HCl: -6.3
It's more dangerous, but not more acidic. (At least in water.) So again, wouldn't the following reaction happen in your stomach:
[math]\rm{NaF + HCl \rightarrow NaCl + HF}[/math]

>>8791468
I believe that the fluoride would rather prefer to stay with the sodium because it's less electronegative than hydrogen and would want the electrons of sodium more than hydrogen. Fluorine won't switch with chlorine for that deal

>>8791479
>>8791468
Actually you're right it will form HF and sodium chloride. The HCl should be completely dissociated in water because it strongly ionizes the water into hydronium. The NaF shouldn't rapidly dissociate be a use Fluorine is so strong adhering to it but the reaction should go forward because it's energetically favorable regardless of electronegativity

I wonder why HF will notoriously eat through so much more shit than HCl will

>>8791309
The joke

Your head

>>8791010
let me clear up some things about fluoride first

There is no evidence that fluoride is an essential mineral. It has been argued that it might be essential for the bones because it accumulates in the bones. So does mercury, cadmium, lead, thallium, beryllium, arsenic etc.

Fluoride can, if applied to the teeth, make your teeth more resistant to acid due to formation of fluoroapatite (which is unecessary if you don't consume exessive amounts of softdrinks or sweets regularly, and occasionally brush your teeth). For the fluoroapatite to form, the fluoride needs to be delivered to the surface of your teeth. If you ingest the fluoride however, only a tiny fraction of that fluoride will reach your teeth through the bloodstream. So DRINKING it is one of the most nonsensical ways to use flouride one could imagine.

>why do governments put it in the drinking water
politicians arent scientists
>is it necessary
hopefully a rhetoric question as america is pretty much the only country that does that
>is it safe
As far as i know relatively small amounts like that have not been known to cause diagnosed fluoride toxicity but that doesn't mean its good for you.
>scientists have been wrong before
Most scientists don't advocate drinking water fluridation. Politicians aren't scientists.

>>8791190


https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/fluoridated-drinking-water/

Jiménez, L. Valdez, et al. "In utero exposure to fluoride and cognitive development delay in infants." NeuroToxicology (2017).

Hirzy, J. William, et al. "Developmental neurotoxicity of fluoride: a quantitative risk analysis towards establishing a safe daily dose of fluoride for children." Fluoride 49.4 (2016): 379-400.

http://fluoridealert.org/studies/brain01/


Lu, Y., et al. "Effect of high-fluoride water on intelligence in children." Fluoride 33.2 (2000): 74-78.


But by all means, throw some more buzzwords and ad hominem attacks in there you useful idiot.

>>8791489
Concentrated HF is a strong acid, because it dissociates into H2F+ and HF2- ions. HF is also notorious for eating through bone because of how it reacts with calcium, and damages soft tissue badly because it interferes with nerve function so you don't feel the pain until later.

>>8791459
>hydrofluoric acid orms an extremely acidic conjugate with water which makes it way stronger than hydrochloric acid
wrong
>hydrofluoric acid will eat throuch virtually anything thats not a polymer like propylene plastic
many metals resist hydrofluoric acid
>>8791479
Na+ is not a strong lewis acid so no. And the Na+ and F- arent even touching in solution.
>>8791489
It's mostly notorous for eating through silicate ceramics and glasses. It does that because silicon and fluorine form very stable bonds and because the formed Hexafluorosilicic acid is highly water soluble.

>>8791121
>We get it from toothpaste
Not everyone brushes their teeth

>>8791010
Fluoride is added to water because it's a byproduct of industrial phosphate fertilizer production, and expensive to get rid of. It's generally added in water in 3 main formulations (from different suppliers), none of which are simply fluoride salts, and one of which being volatile enough that precise breakdown products and proportions thereof is nearly impossible to predict. It's also never shown a consistent relationship with rate of dental caries in a given population in a way that, across all literature, wouldn't look like statistical noise. Low level mechanical research suggests it might actually weaken teeth.

Most high quality research on fluoridated water comes out of China, where it's a more natural problem and is shown to correlate with reduction in intelligence and increase in docility. It can also potentiate arterial calcification.

Repeated studies have all shown fluoride has no internal use, and that contact with the tooth surface is trivial to the point of diminished if not outright absent benefit. Early research suggests theobromine is superior for remineralization.

Portland Oregon recently decided to stop wasting money on water fluoridation. Expect future studies showing, again, no meaningful effect on caries rates.

>>8793222
>because it dissociates into H2F+ and HF2- ions
there is no significant autoprotolysis of HF in aqueous solution because water is a much stronger base than HF

>>8793234
>Repeated studies have all shown fluoride has no internal use
I had a patient 85 years of age.
He was living in a village known to have fluoride in their water sources.
This guy had all his teeth in spotless condition.

I was using fluoride tabs as a kid to the age of 12,I haven't had toothache in my life or had any problem whatsoever with them.

My bother and sister underwent the same routine,they also haven't fixed a tooth in their life.

Take it as you will.

>>8793272
So why do dentists still exist?

I'm not one to discard anecdotes, but I really don't think your experience is at all representative. Large scale studies have shown caries rates increase after fluoridation. It might as well all be meaningless noise devoid of any discernible causative agent. What is discernible, is the fluoride is not directly and consistently beneficial.

>>8793272
>anecdotal evidence vs repeated studies

>here about flouride hurr durr
>hmm maybe they're right maybe its not so gud
>google it
>hmm ok seems like theres some pros and some cons
>ask mom
>yea that shits amazing son people's teeth used to be shit now only like real low bums actually are losing teeth

>realize flouride is good
>realize people like OP are just kinda stupid

sorry OP its ok to be a brainlet just make sure to keep ur teeth clean!

Would fluoride found naturally in springs and other mineral water sources still be considered bad by these conspiracy theorists? I mean fluoride is naturally found in the Alps and people consider that to be some of the purest water in the world.

>>8793299
>Would fluoride found naturally in springs and other mineral water sources still be considered bad by these conspiracy theorists?
Would uranium, cadmium, arsenic, certain bacteria, excessive amounts of nickel, lead, etc, still be considered bad by those non-conspiracy theorists? It is naturally occurring, after all. Therefore they must be A-Okay, I'm sure the body has all the machinery it needs to deal with it just fine...

Listen to yourself.

>>8793272
it certainly didn't significantly improve your ability to make a sound argument

>>8791010

Fear mongers got my community to stop water fluoridation, we even had some natural fluoride in the water, had to raise taxes to remove that and as a by product ramp up the chlorine.

Cavities in school kids have increased tremendously, according to my dentist, she had already seen an increase as most kids drink bottled water and a lot of parents purchase "natural" toothpaste with no fluoride.

My grandfather told me people today have no idea how bad people's teeth were before municipalities began fluoridation, every time my dad went to the dentist it was another cavity.

Bad dental health can shorten lifespan and make life pretty miserable, dental infections if not treated can lead to death, it all starts with a cavity.

People are so concerned about fluoride but don't blink an eye about using chemicals to remove layers of tooth enamel in order to have "Movie Star" unnatural white teeth, their not supposed to be Chiclet white.

1950's and 60's were a great time "Making your life better through Science"

>>8793314
So, is it the toothpaste, or the water? Neither? Both?

>>8793314
>fear mongerers
the irony

>>8793314
>1950's and 60's were a great time
>"Making your life better through Science"
lol how clueless can one get

>>8791358
All forms of agriculture use fertilizers... do you suggest we die of starvation?

>>8793183
Can some biofag refute these, or give credence to why my wife doesn't need a filter when pregnant?

>>8793183
>present significant evidence to support the claim that fluoride can negatively affect childhood brain development
>1 reply
If you are ignorant enough to claim that this is a "conspiracy theory" you should probably stop posting on /sci/.

>>8791035
>You'll pass out any extra fluoride

Fluoride doesn't pass out the body. It accumulates in bones and soft tissue, and displaces iodine while doing so. Humans need iodine or they become mentally retarded. Even a small deficiency can decrease IQ a couple of points.

So far the government has:
>banned the sale of iodine
>remove iodine from bread
>put bromide in bread
>put chlorine in public water
>put fluoride in public water

All these things remove iodine from the body which decreases your IQ. Fluoridation isn't about fluoride at all. It's about iodine and making the population stupid.

>>8793272
Wow a "study" based on 4 people, let's give you a nobel prize.

>>8793314
>My grandfather told me people today have no idea how bad people's teeth were before municipalities began fluoridation
Nigga in my country water fluoridation was never a thing (or well very briefly in Amsterdam IIRC but it was abolished soon after it started) and we all have perfectly fine teeth. Maybe your dad should've just brushed his teeth.

>>8793314
>People are so concerned about fluoride but don't blink an eye about using chemicals to remove layers of tooth enamel
Because tooth bleaching products are not added to the public water supply. Who cares that retards fuck up their own teeth?

>>8794059
Why the iodine hate? In europ they sell salt fortified with iodine.

>>8793234
And not a single source was given that day

>>8791433
Mandatory iodization of salt

>>8794091
https://www.infowars.com/

>government puts flouride in water
>its a conspiracy!
>we must resist!

>same people
>muh libertarianism!
>fuck of with that regulation
>sugar is horrible for you
>doesn't matter, government has no right!

mfw "don't regulate, we are free" libertarians literally okay with the sugar being marketed towards kids and sold in school; the real conspiracy

>>8795112
>false equivalence
what if both sugar and flouride could be bad for the body?

>>8795112
Those hypothetical people have literally nothing to do with what fluoride does or doesn't do.

>>8794091
Yeah.

>>8794089
They do that here too. That guy is just retarded.

>>8791157

>the LD50 of trans fat is like 500g you're gonna be fine lol there's no long-term effects

>>8796732
lol yeah
dis rite heer !

>>8791010
The cheapest, and most productive health policy ever devised was to put flouride in water to help against tooth decay http://pubs.acs.org/stoken/presspac/presspac/abs/10.1021/la4008558

However the odds are you do not have flouride in your water supply since the vast majority of cities/municipalities stopped doing this after tinfoilers went bonkers in the 1960s about it. My city of 3 million people stopped doing it in 1971.

>>8796891
>However the odds are you do not have flouride in your water supply
Completely incorrect.

>>8796891
>My city of 3 million people stopped doing it in 1971.
They can buy toothpaste and handle their own teeth like big boys and girls.

>>8796930
Fairly useless for protecting teeth.
Get a fluoride rinse like they do in my one horse town.

>>8796953
Or that, whatever. Some designed for proper surface contact with the tooth surface, and not non-consensual population wide drugging with an agent that suppresses the ability for tissues to bind and properly traffic iodine.

the poor exist dipshit

>>8797012
Lol.

>>8791215
>small amount of fluoride brushes by your teeth for a few gulps.
>then goes and sits in your digestive system for hours.
It's strong enough to keep you from getting cavity's even though people still get cavity's and have to brush their teeth and shit anyway, none of it gets taken in and processed by your body no way!

>>8797031
Don't bother. Most humans are herd animals that just go along with practically anything, and you're up against something comparable to stockholm syndrome in addition. Fuck em, the only way to change it is through power and force.

>>8797043
I have wondered with fluoride brushing and treatments how much of that shit seeps into you through the skin regardless of swallowing. Hasn't someone done some irrefutable study's with animals or some shit? Why hasn't this been a done issue for years? Honestly i don't KNOW for a fact fluoride is bad for you. But i know that even people who want to break the fluoride myth admit they can't when they research it.

>>8791197
ice cream, mandrake, little children's ice cream.

>>8791438
i lold. good stuff, anon.

>>8797031
The mechanism of fluoride strengthening teeth is based on the susceptibility of acid attack by hydroxyapatite vs fluoroapatite, which is your enamel vs your enamel with fluoride treatment.

>>8791010
>move to the middle of bumfuck nowhere
>have a personal well and filtration system for drinking water
>no flouride in my water except for small amounts of naturally occurring flouride

I am 24 and i have zero cavities and no other dental issues. There is no reason for artificial water fluoridation. Anyone saying otherwise ITT is brainwashed and/or retarded.

>>8798681
>naturally occurring fluoride
except that often has dangerous levels and remote villages/towns in certain places have to filter out the "naturally occurring" fluoride as it's unsafe

>>8798765
Hence my $3000 water treatment system. I also have an exceptionally deep well. I have some of the purest drinking water available to anyone. It tastes noticeably better than most bottled water. You would think without all that flouride i would have shit teeth, but thats because you are brainwashed. Theres no need to drink flouride if you just brush your teeth twice a day instead of living like some halitosis ridden mongoloid.

>>8791157

>The ld50 of sodium fluoride is 70ppm or something stupidly huge. Most tap water is <1ppm

Since when do you have to ingest the fuckin LETHAL DOSE of a substance for it to be harmful? If I put LSD in my water I won't die but give me 6 months and I'll be a rabid homeless loony

Please regurgitate more textbook facts

>>8791010
Water fluoridation adds fluoride to the water in such low concentrations that it causes no ill effects and is completely harmless.

Many areas have water that is naturally fluoridated due to dissolution of fluorine minerals in the groundwater. In some this is a problem because fluoride concentrations are higher than the recommended safe level.

Tea contains higher concentrations of fluoride than fluoridated water.

Seawater contains similar or higher concentrations of fluoride to fluoridated water.

A lot of people against water fluoridation have little to no understanding of chemistry.

I can see where the people against "medication" of public water supplies are coming from but to call fluoride a "medication" is a bit of a stretch.

>>8791239
Actually there are uses for fluorine, mostly in the chemicals industry. The US is a net importer of fluorine.