If life starts in the ocean, why didn't civilization

>>8754362
It did.

no selective pressure for intelligence=no ability to start a civilization.

no, flats of algae and colonial jellyfish don't count.

>>8754373
There obviously is selective pressure for intelligence in the ocean, since some sea creatures are significantly more intelligent than others.

>>8754382
why don't cetaceans have civilization then? they have some form of language but that's it.

>>8754362
>try to build something
>fins are crap at manipulating anything
>tentacles are weak and flimsy af, and they rely on suction cups to even attach to anything
>its not like there are sea trees and sea wood to build with anyway
>try fencing in and domesticating sea animals
>they swim over the fence you just built (there aren't enough sea trees to build a spherical fence)
>try to make fire
>you're under water
>try geothermal vents
>at the bottom of the ocean where energy is very scarce and pressures are crazy high

>>8754423
So they tried but just gave up?
Like it was so fuckin easy for us on ground.
>our aquatic brethren have failed us

>>8754393
Because they use their intelligence for the things their bodies let them. Obviously they can't really build tools with their fishlike bodies.

Jesus don't you people have television?!!? There are complete colonies of mer-people out there, tools and all!

>>8754382
Then where is it? Dolphins? Whales? Things that couldn't build a fucking wheel?

Can't build tools underwater realisticly. Also you need at least three digits with a thumb to evolve complex thinking and toolmaking in the long run ,we have 5. Dinos would have developed tools eventually but were stopped early and the ones that had wings simply eveolved into birds a nore natural realistic skill that helped them survive in the long run to our current time.

>>8754511
why 3 digits and a thumb? Why not 1 digit and a thumb?

>>8754515
you can't do jackshit with a digit and a thumb

>>8754515
Are you describing a crab? Yes

>>8754525
>>8754532
I'm describing something that can turn a door handle, operate a hammer, wire cutter, press a button and can use any sort of remote control with 2 arms.

>>8754546
Yeah I see what youre saying but I can't answer it. I think it has sonething weird to do with adaptations or something like that. Like technically a squid can do all those things but it never came out of the water to try any of it becuase it was so well adapted to its current environment.

>>8754546
And that in turn with how long adaptations take to turn into an evolutionary trates it keeps them from making a civ with tools

>>8754563
So it really has to do with ability to influence the environment and nervous system development. We could have 2 digits and survive as a species as is...

>>8754546
Also teamwork and other things instilled in us is a survival trait that was crucial to survive. All apex predators have high iq relative to their prey. And by allowing teamwork within human culture we learned to hunt as a group and live as a group. We evolved from something just eating grass into omnivores then also in turn were able to later cultivate crops as gatherers and get the best of both worlds

>>8754571
Yes I believe you worded it correctly.

>Atlantis

>>8754582
I think that has to do with us having sex all year round and being able to control our environments using fire, stones and etc., having to do with being able to control our environment. Sex and pregnancy is team work.

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>>8754501
Those idiot fish. Not even thinking to invent the wheel.

/s (pic related)

>>8754501
Gr8 b8 m8.

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>>8754546

>>8754362
Evolution has some serious gaps in logic if I'm honest.

>>8754362
we know more about the moon than we know about the ocean.
we know about 1 percent about the ocean.

>>8755098
>Evolution has some serious gaps in logic if I'm honest.
Elaborate
>https://aeon.co/essays/on-epigenetics-we-need-both-darwin-s-and-lamarck-s-theories

>>8755257
Thats the thing, it doesnt follow logic.

Everyone in this thread is retarded. Civilization started because of abstract ideas. Not physiology.

People realized that sitting around and farming was easier than getting killed by wild predators.

Then some wise ass was like "gee how can I brainwash all these monkeys to farm my crops for me" so he invented religion and promised them eternal life.

Humans are fucking retards, other humans literally ran around promising abstract concepts to other humans because they were afraid of dying. And it worked. If a squid was smart enough to lie out his ass to other squid, boom civilization.

*tips ink bladder*

>>8754423
kek

>>8754362
You're right, there's totally not any form of civilisation at the bottom of the sea.
Please stop looking for us.

>>8754582
>all apex predators have high iq relative to their prey
literally untrue. stingrays eats cephalopods. fuckin duh

>>8754511

You don't need fingers. Octopus are more dextres than us.

>>8754362
Cuz god.

>>8755330
dolphins routinely lie to each other for food resource and social advantage. why are you all retarded

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>>8755355
im imagining that, it's hilarious

> hi tom
> hey larry
> i died yesterday give me ur food
> oh no why u did die
> yesterday lol
> then whos talking to me
> the black walrus that bullied you when you were younger
> o
> ye
> can I hab food now
> no lol
>why?
> ur mean
> o okay
> gib kith pls
> k :3

Prod. By

|
|>
|
|3
|
|
|_

Nah shit. But they sure as fuck dont have a civilization do they? Or make fucking tools

>>8755366
lol literally

same anon

the conversation goes like this irl

larry larry (i am larry)

daniel daniel (i am daniel)

larry daniel (hi daniel)

daniel larry (hi larry)

daniel daniel (hey daniel here is where food is, youre part of the pod, its cool)

simon observes this, approaches larry

.......daniel daniel ....?

larry daniel,
daniel daniel (hey its you again, here is where more food is daniel)

>>8755378
they manipulate bubbles to use as nets in feeding aggregations, which could be considered a tool.

also cephalopods have been known to use shells and halfs of coconuts as sheilds and mobile homes, that could be considered a tool.

and they actively decorate 'gardens' (the beatles didnt invent 'the octopuses garden') in order to attract mates, who may choose males based on how well kept their garden is. that could be considered the beginnings of a civilization.

some postulate that their slow growth and reproduction rates, along with one tough as fuck mammal surviving the permian mass extinction, are likely literally the only reason why humans were able to gain a foothold and we dont live in an octopus dominated society

>>8755348
Im saying relative to thier prey. And not always but anything that is a predator has higher nervous sytsten function. A squid can camouflage to catch prey. A wolf pack can form tactics to hunt prey. Killer whales use pack tactics to hunt. Fish and other prey may bundle together for saftey in numbers but thats it.

>>8754362
>>>8754546
>Yeah I see what youre saying but I can't answer it. I think it has sonething weird to do with adaptations or something like that. Like technically a squid can do all those things but it never came out of the water to try any of it becuase it was so well adapted to its current environment.
>>8755397

>>8755410
nope, different anon bruh. shock horror, there are >1 marine biologists in this thread

>>8754362
because physics had to develop. in water, you literally cant build or do shit, and everythings the fuckin same. climate doesnt give you much to develop upon.

construction and improvement in life are key to civilization.

>>8755397
Octopus dominated society? Yeah they sure do show alot of teamwork and the mammalian trait of hyper social interactions..... the point is they need to be on land and have to have at least 3 digits with a thumb to grasp critical thinking and toolmaking in long run. Plus mammals pass down lessons like killer whales teaching young to hunt. Octopus don't. Tentacles dont work well in the long run in land vs hard bones.

>>8754362
Because paper gets wet in the water and you can't hold a pen with fins.

>>8755402
sorry anon, i have to defend fish here.

most pelagic fish have countershading which can render them invisible depending on angle and depth of the predator.

they also possess an extremely current sensitive lateral line running the length of their body.

visual acuity isnt great in alot of species, but some damsel fish (considered a peasant family) have even been shown to have facial recognition.

damselfish also actively FARM algal turf, eating a section of turf whilst they allow other sections to regrow - all the while fertilising that turf with excrement and actively defending it against predators. How is that not the very basis of agriculture and resource management ???????
(although i will admit, studies arent in complete agreement about whether they are actually eating the turf - it actually intensifies another level; most species arent eating the algae - the algae is a copepod rich habitat, they are actively farming crustaceans. they are FUCKING CRAB FARMERS.)

also, for interests sake.... they make active decisions about where to settle, where to disperse, where to resist dispersion, spawning aggregations involving extremely basic levels of risk spreading and population management.... the list goes on

>>8755419
Octopus may be critical thinkers but they're weak as fuck and any land animal would destroy it. Hell a bird would peck it to death haha.

>>8754362
Fun fact: all cradles of civilization were next to a desert.

>>8755419
if the long run you are talking about involves eventual (at this point near inescapable) sea level rise, human extinction and man mad structures being submerged in seawater? i would say you may be incorrect, sir

>>8755423
True I will admit they have very complex social interactions and even perform societal like task but i feel as if that is almost compared to an ant colony being considered as building a civ when in fact its just a complex hive mind.

>>8755428
same anon; im proposing a future where humans are long gone, and octopussies swim around the ruins of our civilization opening all our jars and fucking with our shit.

>"Who were these mysterious people?"
>"What is a... s-t-e-v-e u-r-k-e-l ?'

>>8755441
I can agree with this, but would postulate that humans are essentially the same
>believing in free will

>>8755425
marineAnon again, feast your eyes on this, friend

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p2RR3g8UOM

these fuckers are strong, and with a bite force ratio that can easily break bones

>>8755425
also, octopussies do hunt on land bro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar5WJrQik2o

>>8755443
Yeah I may have mindfucked myself with that last realization. Im just glad to have an actual convo about this. It really does fascinate me. How the human consciousness can be among a group or singular person and how much is instinctual vs learned behaviour or just doing monkey see monkey do

>>8755462
totally dude

/sci/ is the shit

jaques castel has some stuff to say that you would really be interested in anon ;)

>>8755458
Ok you got me they can be like the kraken. But thier size inhibits them brain size wise and even though theyre super smart and complex all the complexity has gone into their nervous sytem adaptations and not into nurturing young, teaching, or using tools to hunt or build shelter. They need to camlflauge becuase they get eaten alot.

>>8755465
Ill def check his stuff out:)

>>8755475
agreed - size/brain size tradeoff is their ultimate limitation

which family do you think would rise to uber sentience in the absence of humans then, out of interest?

food for thought: if aliens came and visited earth, they would likely see insects as the dominant life form

>>8755189

you've been memed my friend

living in water is piss easy
fish are fucking retarded and other water animals even more so
the only smart ones are mammals like whales, but those evolved from land mammals

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>>8755506

Shoggoths.

>>8755492
>if aliens came and visited earth, they would likely see insects as the dominant life form
>as opposed to the apex predator ape thing that can probably hit them with a missile

gee golly sci is full of smart people.

>he believes in aliens
>>>/x/

>>8755492
I often wonder. It always surpises me that an insect never came to be dominant one. especially how big they used to be when the earth had way more 02 also they have such a wide variety of mechanisms they add to themselves physically like pincer antennas book lungs wings and crazy eye sight and some look exactly like the plants they live on. Plus they multiply so quickly you would think they would have at least an accidental spurt of intelligence at somepoint. Like an enlarged brain cavity or multuple brains or some shit. I mean the literally metamorphosize from one being to another, from worm to flight.. It shouldnt be that hard to have them gain inteligence or insight after eons of constantly changing genomes.

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>>8754369
this

>/sci/ brainlets don't even know about atlantis

>>8755752
>he thinks intelligence has anything to do with convergent evolution.
>he thinks animals get smart on accident without an external environmental factor that causes the species to select that adaptation through natural selection rendering the adaption warranted

am I doing it right sci?

>>8755768
I think you didnt read any of the discussion Leading up to this comment

>>8755768
Can't build tools underwater realisticly. Also you need at least three digits with a thumb to evolve complex thinking and toolmaking in the long run ,we have 5. Dinos would have developed tools eventually but were stopped early and the ones that had wings simply eveolved into birds a nore natural realistic skill that helped them survive in the long run to our current time.

>>8755768
When toolmaking and language begin its from within genetically. Because at that point in evolution you must have the correct hands to build them the right throat to speak words.

>>8755772
You can't get convergent evolution to select intelligence unless the environmental pressures demand it.

>insects
>eat, shit, fuck

Unless they have a problem that with one of those three that can be overcome with the use of intelligence. It won't happen.

Humans didn't become smart by accident, competition for food and mates caused it.

>chimp-man eats everything, can't cross an ocean or swim to a place with more food
>all the chimp men who can live by figuring out how to fish

rinse and repeat. Also mantis shrimp are pretty fucking smart, and have the best eyes in the animal kingdumb. But I guess they aren't technically insects.

Octopus and crows are as smart as a 7 year old, and use tools.

Octopus will use coconut halves as shelters if they are available and feel threatened, crows will use hooks and sticks to get at grubs and garbage.

>>8755788
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUN6c5yWJhQ

>>8755785
When squid adapt color changing skin its not only for camolfuage but also language they speak. See their skin is their throat for language they have critical thinking but non of the mamalian qualities of hyper socializing or ability to pass down information in king run without it being imprented in genes

>>8755788
Just replace the animal used in the early comment with insect.....>>8754546
Yeah I see what youre saying but I can't answer it. I think it has sonething weird to do with adaptations or something like that. Like technically a squid can do all those things but it never came out of the water to try any of it becuase it was so well adapted to its current environment.

>>8755802
exactly, unless something has a problem with it's "prime directive" which is eating, shitting and fucking, nature won't pressure it to become smart.

Humans will regress eventually because life is so fucking easy. The average person can't count change or bake cookies without checking google.

>>8755788
Yeah i never said we got smart on accident. Im saying just from shear mumber of mutations in the inscect famila that maybe some fucking brain bug would come out. I was simply responding with an opinion of what i thought might have been the dom species on earth

>>8755806
Honestly dinos would have been the dom species

>>8755806
Yes completely agree if it aint broke dont fix it.

>>8755796
The reason cephlopods don't "get" smarter or pass down knowledge is because the mother who nurtures the young dies almost immediately after they hatch.

>>8755823
Damn I guess thats some mechanism to ensure there is no competition for resources.

>>8755824
who knows, but I imagine if the mother could survive long enough it would have the capability to teach the young. Since they can learn by watching each other.

Also assassin bugs could arguably be tool users since they use dead bodies as camo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3YiF-SXyck

>>8755827
Holy shit. That bug is like a fucking serial killer psycho . Watch me blend in with your kind by using the corpses of your dead that I have sucked dry. Jesus if that thing was human size life would be a nightmare.

>>8755836
I know, they are the coolest.

>>8755330
Ummm I don't think early religion can be easily dismissed as it is today lol. You act like early humans knew what the fuck they were talking about jesus fuck they needed it as a way to conceptualize fucking ideas of the world from a human viewpoint. Its not like religion has been around forver but early version were simply tribal at best but was used to teach lesson through song and word. Maybe humans cuaght on later on within the past centuries of the ways to use it for personal gain but honestly your time view is off so much lol. You would have believed all of it had you lived in a different time.

octopuses aren't social enough but they'd be the best candidates

>>8755848
professor peterson fuck off. Religion was a tool the smart monkeys used against the dumb ones. Ya conceptualizing concept abstracts like giving me blow jobs, plowing my fields and cooking me dinner.

>pssst hey, want some cosmic wisdom, just plow my field mang, ill tell you the secret

pfffft

>>8755853
I think a slave is gonna plow the field whether they care about religion or not haha

>>8755853
Its not like humans were forced to farm as early hunter gathers anyway they did becuase it was more energy efficient. They wanted to

>>8755853
How about you plow my field or I hang you and kill your family haha

>>8755861
That's just it, the best slave is one who doesn't realize he is a slave. Just like how you don't realize you reside in an invisible cage your entire life that you can't escape from. The only thing you can do is make your cage bigger. And then after that, you are stuck inside a flesh prison. But hey, I got this magic key called religion, all you have to do is work yourself to death or kill yourself for your king and you can live in paradise.

Sort yourself out, FAG.

>>8755865
>>8755867
>somebody didn't read up on Sumerians and ancient iraq

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDsTGVPw1tM

Fuck, sci is full of dumbies. Embrace oblivion.

>>8755868
Yeah poor me in my cage so burdend. I dont care about relgion im just saying your demonizing it becuase of current uses you nust have been tricked early in life to think thats what religion is so now that you grew up you hate it with a passion. I mean most peolple with common sense dont believe in that shit they just conform and pretend and you fell for it hard haha and are still mad to this day.

>>8755868
No one really gives a shit about religion like that. Its not like ita a fucking jedi mind trick haba

>>8755880
8000 year old civilizations aren't current usages. It's always been used for either good or evil.

>>8755868
If it really is so easy to trixk humans why dont you just trick them into working for you? Tell them u got a secret. Theyre trapped in their meat cage lol

>>8755890
You are laughing but that is basically what religion does. Sure it's gotten softer and less intense. But yea especially early on, that's all it was used for. Population suppression.

How do you get all the tribes to live in your city and plow your fields. Just tell them about your magic temple and how you talk to god. It's literally that easy. I guess you never heard of the jonestown massacre.

Stop trying to be hip and trendy faggots by worshiping some professors cock.

>>8755886
>>8755886
Well guns can be used for good and evil so is religiin killing people or people killing people. Guns are a tool so is relgion

>>8755894
I agree humans use it for fucked up shit though. But i just really like to hate on the human himslef moreso than the tools we may be arguing but i do agree with you relig has bee. Used for fucked things for a lonf time but unfortunately was necessary pre 8000 years ago . Like fire was

>>8755895
That's what I fucking said, and the majority of the time it's used for "benefit" at dumb people's expense.

If you want to talk to god, do it on your own. You don't need a fucking middle man.

Seriously, /sci/ I thought you were better than this.

>>8755894
What prof are you referring to

>>8755906
Professor Peterson @ UoT, he is a smart guy and he seems nice but I don't agree with his stance on religion. Sure it worked, by oppressing the fuck out of all the priests and kings rivals.

>>8755904
You brought it up lol the point is religion is within a civilization you are the one brining up god problems go fill ur god hole

>>8755908
Ill check him out to thanks for responding. Just interesting to see viewpoints

>>8755920
My point was, that the only reason civilization passed the tribal stage is because smart people enslaved retards by telling them they are stuck in meat cages.

Whether you see it as good or evil is upto you. But that is why we have what we have today. And I disgaree completely about abstract concepts, tribesmen passed down knowledge and concepts with stories for eons. Nobody gave a shit about god unless somebody died, some clever fucks gears started turning when he saw people mourning and decided to make a quick sheckle out of them.

>dude don't worry, we live forever, he is just not in his meat cage anymore. He flew away.

lmao come on man, don't be a homo.

>>8755932
Okay I see what your saying but what about when societies worshipped temples and axes and stones? That was their religion I guess but it brought them together for a higher goal for the sake of the group

>>8755939
They didn't pass the tribal stages because they didn't build temples or develop agriculture. Religion didn't teach people that, smart people did.

I think it's intellectually dishonest to view it as anything other than a tool to coerce people.

>>8755944
Well in that logic smart people who know the truth about not living forever but pushed it on others would be non religious personally. Therefore the intel of the person doing the deceiving is the true evil not the idiot mongoloid who is following his words blindley for hope.

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>>8754423
>try to make fire
>you're under water
can't argue with that

>>8755961
The point is, humans uplifted humans, not god or abstract concepts (lies).

>>8754471
>Obviously they can't really build tools with their fishlike bodies.
Human intelligence in an octopus body could derive many advantages from tool creation and use. Knives, spears, shovels, traps, secure homes with strong doors, farming, armor (think of portable shark cages).

I think it's their method of reproduction that didn't favor the development of culture and the intelligence for it. How could they pass down their inventions to their children when they have hundreds of thousands of plankton-size offspring, and when they typically die shortly after their role is fulfilled in relation to a batch of eggs?

The close relationship between parent and offspring is practically unique to mammals. I mean, it's right there in the name: we're the class with tits to feed our young. This makes the transmission of culture possible, which incentivizes the development of linguistic and technological intelligence.

>>8756033
Exactly my friend.

>>8755492
>if aliens came and visited earth, they would likely see insects as the dominant life form
come on now, that's some clickbait-y bullshit

>>8755806
>unless something has a problem with it's "prime directive" which is eating, shitting and fucking, nature won't pressure it to become smart
>unless
>humans fucking with the environment could lead to the rise of the next sapient species
well shit

If homosapiens started in Africa, why didn't civilization also start there?

>>8756149
because only the laziest ones stayed there

>>8756169
This is the correct answer. Also no black race ever was able to make a large civilization like the other races. They just cooked in the sun becuase tjey were too lazy.

>>8754369
FPBP

>>8756033
This

>>8754362
Brains require lots of oxygen. Oxygen doesn't dissolve very well in water. You'd have to breath massive amount s of water to exctract the amount of oxygen in one breathe.