Is computer science a real science? Why do IT guys always look

>>8654337
computer scientists are not scientists

IT is not computer science

>>8654354

this

CS is low-tier engineering

IT is computer handyman/babysitter

IT is not hard.
But it is a terrible job.
Everyone treats them as a personal help desk. World would be a better place with higher computer literacy rates.

>>8654373
So would a programmer be a better job then?

>>8654337
>Is computer science a real science?
Of course it's not, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate it. It's more like a branch of applied mathematics, if anything.

IT is a shit job and has nothing to do with computer science. Also code monkeys are not computer scientists. Anybody can follow a few trivial online tutorials and punch away at a keyboard.

>>8654388
Only if you do freelance work or work your way up to a managerial position

>>8654337
I worked in computer repair for a few years and owned my own business. I've never in my life seen a more bitter, snide, elitist, self-centered, cynical, and sarcastic bunch of man babbies in my entire life as people who work in IT.

On the other hand, all the people who need IT/computer repair help seem to be extremely ignorant about almost anything computer related. They are normally not stupid, just massively ignorant. A lot of times it is willful ignorance. They simply do not want to learn about it and would rather pay someone else to do the job.

But, none of the IT people saw it that way. They only see stupid people asking stupid questions. They want to feel smart and above the people they are helping and end up taking on all questions. It is like a vicious circle. The higher they feel, the more they get tread on by help desk shit from their job to their personal life. They can't seem to stop and it does something to them mentally. They begin to see everyone who is not IT as another class of human.

When I had enough, I shut down my business and refused to help anyone. While I had my business, I never answered questions unless I was being paid. Even when asked by family or friends. That really help to cut down on IT-syndrome happening to me.

Now I'm a farmer and am about as carefree as I can get.

>>8654442
>I'm a farmer
How's that sweet government subsidy? Would the business be profitable without it? What do you feel are the main challenges to productivity?
Thanks

>>8654408
>It's more like a branch of applied mathematics

Lies and slander. CS barely uses a small fraction of math.

>>8654373
>IT's job is to help/troubleshoot problems
>people ask them for help
>this is terrible

Maybe if so many of you weren't such goddamned socially retarded autists the job would be easier to handle.

>>8654337
Having worked with their code: I'd say most of them are miserable and lazy in the first place.
All the issues and bugs in os's aren't surprising given most programmers are anti-social and unable to communicate.

>>8654337
computer science is a troll

Anyone can get a degree in 2 years easily and be upper middle class right out of school


Honestly it isnt fucking fair but I guess the world needs you guys. Id rather spend my time doing something I love like chemistry even if it means half the pay

Sys Admins and tech support are by far the most faggy people in any workplace

t. research and software development

>>8654568
You're retarded. Just because you or your retarded school don't use math doesn't mean the field of computer science doesn't lol.

>>8654568
Most breakthroughs in AI currently are based on mathematical foundation. It's applied math + programming to prove your point. Theoretical CS is pure applied math. Are you retarded or something?

>>8654612
Some retards will say that it's better hardware + data. Yes, better hardware + data started the current AI boom but it can not keep for long. We have way better understanding of how everything work than before. And many of the best papers are not based on hardware improvement.

>>8654619
none of the best papers are based on hardware improvement.

they either ARE the hardware improvement or they are not dependent on it.

>>8654337
What do IT people even do? If I'm not wrong doctors:nurses::CS:IT
Also I'm gonna start mechE soon. I know some baby programming so what can I do to earn money on the side with programming?

>>8654612
>Most breakthroughs in AI
>breakthroughs in AI
>"AI"

Yeah, you're clearly a clueless undergrad. Most papers in ML are applying <random statistics paper> to <random problem> and noting that it does XX better than the baseline. Then republishing tweaked versions of it a dozen more times.

>Theoretical CS is pure applied math

No. Go study some physics if you want to see what pure applied math looks like. The stuff you saw in Sipser is far from real math.

>>8654610
>ad hominem attack on the school rather that citing anything in an argument

I'm sick of this mantra. Just because you and all your classmates struggles like hell to understand CLRS doesn't mean it was because of "tons of math" in it and anyone that disagrees must certainly go to a "shitty school". The math content in CS classes is considerably less than most other STEM majors. Crack open some books and take a look for yourself.

>>8654362
computer janitor

>>8654580
the problem is that some people are retarded when it comes to computers
so you have to help retards all the time

>help anon, there's a popup that says "click ok to continue installing or cancel to cancel". which should i click if i want to continue installing!

>>8655244
>there's a popup that says "click ok to continue installing or cancel to cancel"
Wrong. They wouldn't even say that. The main issue is that those retards don't read. They turn off their brain.
They click random buttons and links that look like the buttons that worked in the past and then expect it to work.
If your design does not look like the majority existing applications a lot of people will have trouble using it.

>>8655230

>Implying machine learning is anywhere near the most interesting thing in CS, or somehow indicative of the state of the field

Most of the "applying <random statistics paper> to <random problem>" papers only exist because most universities have absurdly high publishing quotas for CS professors. If you look at any work that takes itself seriously (e.g. http://jocg.org/index.php/jocg/article/view/223/100), you'll see much purer approaches.

>inb4 dismisses paper without reading it

Can someone post the image where a CS dude says "what's up", and a /sci/ guy with glasses says "I don't associate with CS trash"?

>>8655244
>>8655417

OK faggots I get that - but helping retards is LITERALLY part of your job. Maybe if you cut the superiority shit and actually try to educate once in awhile, there will be less retards asking questions in the future.

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>>8654612

Fucking hell, why is this pic always so right

It's almost comical.

>>8654337
Is a BSc in IT that bad in the USA? Here in Finland the second best technical university has no CS program (with that name), but it has an IT program which contains things like signal processing, machine learning and software engineering.

>>8654558
I don't get a subsidy. I'm a subsistence farmer. There are no challenges because everything is diversified.

biology, chem, physics are all natural sciences.

computer science is a """"computer"""" science.

>>8657497
computer science is a """""computer""""" """""science"""""

>>8654337
God, IT is the worst shit.

I work for a defence force as an officer with a CS+Math degree. I figured it would be cool, but it is by far the worst tech area in existence.

My entire job consists of essentially forming the cyber capacity of an entire defence force as a low level junior officer since no one with an IT/CS degree is social enough to lead. But not only that, it involves giving briefs, instruction and education to balding middle age men on memetic warfare or babysitting children who are supposed to become cyber warriors.

Should have studied physics.

>>8654354
totally agree

>>8654580
The problem is that IT is basically the interface between the computer illiterate of the world and the computer. For customer help, hand-wavey bullshit will suffice but when it is your boss who is computer illiterate and demanding impossible tasks out of IT's scope but doesn't even know it because computers are magic, then the It has a bad time.

If you didn't bullshit your way into the job tho then you'll be able to figure something out. CS is like what >>8654362 said, low-tier engineering. Ultimately, what you are learning how to do is solve problems in a particular field: computers

>>8654388
Better pay than IT, usually work in teams, and usually flexible in projects and work.

It is very common to move around within a company to work on different aspects of their back end, if they are large enough. It is also very common to occasionally work from home.

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>>8654337
>IT guys
>computer science

>>8655230

You're 100% and completely full of shit. I go to an institution reputed as having one of the best mathematics programs in the WORLD, and the people double-majoring in mathematics and computer science struggle in our theoretical computer science courses.

Then again, the mathematics students at our university have the humility and worldly sense to know that the rigor of the math department has absolutely nothing to do with the rigor of the computer science department.

I agree with the other anon. That one of you and your school is so shitty that you have no clue what computer science is about has no bearing on the field.

>>8654590
this guy gets it
I wanna do physics
though I do like computers and shit so I'm gonna double major in physics (or engineering/applied physics) and Comp Sci

>>8654337
>IT
>Computer Science

I don't think so. IT goes to Computer Information System majors or people who got their certificates.

>>8654442
Nail on the head, but there are additional reasons. A genuine gripe - it is a MASSIVE field that is every bit as complex as some other STEMs, that takes nearly all of your free time if you are all in. And if you're not all in, you're not going anywhere in it. At least you know what burnout is like..

>>8656870
Helping people have critical thinking or reading skills is not part of IT's job. That is a management/HR problem. Engineers don't teach mad skills to pilots fuckhead.

>>8656870
Also, IT is not always helping someone. Helpdesk/FieldOPS is. If youre not in an environment where nothing works right then you are doing planning/maintenance/growth/real work that has nothing to do with people.

You, the users, are why IT hates you. You don't understand what we do. Not that you have to, just don't be a fuckhead.

>>8658545
It'll honestly help. A huge chunk of physics nowadays is simulations or at least requires you to be really good with manipulating large quantities of data.

I'm doing research on asteroid orbital dynamics in fortran 77. I've been trying to diagnose a fucking segfault for two days. A couple compsci classes past my (legitimately decent) ones in highschool would have been useful.

>>8654612
>Theoretical CS is pure applied math.
>pure applied math
>pure applied

wut?

As a pure mathfag I'd argue that the sort of category theory and type theory done in the comp sci department are more pure math than their math department counterparts.

So if IT isn't CS how do you become one?

Do you need a certificate?

>>8658068

Most people that double major in CS and math halfass the math major a take the easiest courses offered in the math department.

>I go to an institution reputed as having one of the best mathematics programs in the WORLD

Which is...?

>>8658068
>Then again, the mathematics students at our university have the humility and worldly sense to know that the rigor of the math department has absolutely nothing to do with the rigor of the computer science department.

So much this. The sort of shit that passes for a proof in the mathematics department is embarrassing. Few math majors are well versed in logic and just spill out some disgusting English prose that at best qualifies as a proof outline. Textbook authors are guilty of this too.

>>8655230
Just because your school dumbed down their automata class and algorithms class doesn't mean every other school does the same.

>>8654568
undergraduate CS uses very simple math. perhaps the highest math the average CS student will take is calc 2. for most CS students, they will graduate and become software developers.

graduate level CS is much more math intensive and closer to 'real' CS.

>>8658991
If the highest level math you took was calc 2 then at my school you couldn't get a degree in cs lmao.

>>8658882
that's because logic isn't taught well or at all in most courses beyond basic prop calculus and FOL. Pretty much the only time students in math are exposed to logic.

There should be more graduate level courses in Set theory, Model theory, Proof theory and Computability theory

>>8658996
yeah. for some reason they require the computer engineering students to take up to differential equations, but the CS students only have to take up to calc 2 and linear algebra. Of course calc 2 is probably more difficult than linear algebra.

inb4 math and physics fags reply with some shit about how linear algebra and calc 2 is baby shit. yeah we know goddammit

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>>8658996
>he thinks discrete math is higher math

kek

>>8654337
It's not difficult but it's pretty painful but maybe you can call it the "science" of managing information

>>8654337
IT guys have to deal with technically illiterate morons all the time and then get looked down upon by retarded salespeople on top of that, that's why they always look like they hate everyone, because they do.

>>8658976

Show me a school that isn't dumb down. Most places use Sipser/Hopcroft and CLRS/Tardos/Sedgewick&Wayne/Dasgupta in their brainlet automata class and algorithms class respectively.

>>8658998
I agree with everything you said.

I encourage other math students to take formal logic courses in the philosophy department because they help out their proof writing skills.

Our university's CS department requires that undergrad students take some grad level courses for their degree (not specific courses, just a certain number of courses over a certain level of which they're all double listed as grad and undergrad). So grad level computability theory, type theory, category theory, complexity theory aren't uncommon for our undergrads to have. Some of them even have proof theory and model theory. On the other hand our math department is very standard with the algebra, analysis, etc.. courses and most of the wiggle room is used on other undergrad courses. There is a mathematical foundations course that covers set theory in depth but it's kind of a joke in that it parallels and is easier than the logic courses in the philosophy department and the grad level computability that many undergrad CS students take.

Perhaps your CS department is a joke but I would suggest taking a second look at those elective requirements and course offerings. I suspect you're judging the program based on a smaller number of core requirements.

>>8659263
>not specific courses, just a certain number of courses over a certain level of which they're all double listed as grad and undergrad

Those aren't grad courses. Those are grad makeup courses for students coming in from a different undergrad subject.

Of course it is, it's in the name...

>>8654429
How in the hell do I get into freelance programming work? That sounds pretty lucrative.

>>8659311
No, because students choose a minimum number of said courses in their undergrad and then take some of the remaining courses in the grad level. There are other higher level courses that are not double listed like homotopy type theory but whether or not they're offered varies from year to year. An undergrad taking such a course can put it towards their undergrad degree if they wish to.

The courses you are referring to are undergrad level courses that a supervisor will ask their student to audit.

>>8658991
Damn I'm in my senior year of high school taking calc 2. I'd go even higher but they don't offer beyond that.

>>8659263
I am the poster that just wrote about the lack of logic courses in the math department (didn't post anywhere else in the thread)-- glad you agree with me.

I noticed something similar. In my pure math degree I took the standard math courses. There were very few courses in logic. I ended up taking mathematical logic courses in the Philosophy department. These were huge weed out courses and math majors (with interest) also enrolled.

They taught logic very rigorously. I too ended up taking a computability theory course in the philosophy department (the course credit counted as a math course) and there were graduate students enrolled.

They also offered a Model theory course and I took a Set theory course.

Like you mentioned these were Graduate level courses that undergraduates could take.

Most of my standard math courses were in traditional areas of math, I'm very happy I was able to take courses in logic.

I started studying CS towards my junior/senior year and then went on to take course in Theory of Computation.

From there I decided to switch from pure math to CS.

My CS courses are very theoretical and even the more applied courses I take in CS have theoretical sides to them.