Why shouldn't the minimum wage be increased to $15? Why

why do we let the rich have money again? greedy fucks baka

Foodstamps

Roommate

Carpool

Cooking

Wow so hard to live off min wage qqqqqqq

>lets give them more money so they can spend more money

Makes zero sense. Company can spend that money to better itself, not on some pos felon who isnt reliable in any meaningful way

>>8602638
>Makes zero sense
It's almost like you have never heard of Keynes

>Company can spend that money to better itself
Even if that notion was correct, that moneyw ould still goto other companies, and to others from that, creating a cycle of profits that plebs will benefit
It has to trickle down at one point friend, or it is literal slavery

>>8602638
>Foodstamps

So you would rather fund programs that creates a cancer in our society, instead of giving every worker a living wage? Are you fucking retarded? The double think of conservative is impressive

>Look at those welfare queens married to the state! Disgusting! Why do they even need that money for?

>No, don't pay them shit. Give them a wage that has been outdated since the fucking 60s and even worse because of inflation.

>>8602654
>plebs will benefit *the least
sry

>minimum wage

Only mentally impaired persons and gradeschoolers make min wage.

If you can show up to work on time not drunk you will make more than minimum wage.

Raising min wage only causes price inflation and makes things more expensive for everyone else.

>>8602621
the argument i usually get is "minimum wage is not supposed to be a living wage"

As with most liberal pipe dreams involving economic legislation, the very people you'll harm are the uneducated, unskilled workers currently seen as victims of corporate greed (not necessarily untrue). You'll be eliminating the means for unskilled, uneducated (read: poor, probably minorities, for some reason also women) people to enter the work force. Businesses aren't as fat and dumb as they seem, if a position is only economically viable at lower than the required wage they'll develop an alternative to meet that business need.

With the low minimum wage, at least these people have the *opportunity* to develop skills in a job which they can hope to use in obtaining higher wages/higher paying positions in the future. This model in itself is hopeless ideal, but at least some route for the uneducated/unskilled to a career exists; whereas, the higher minimum wage leaves them with no entryway into the workforce.

What exactly do you mean by 'give' the poor more income? Where do you think wealth comes from? Despite the image of fat cats raking in the money of the parents, wealth is largely produced. Look at Spain's humongous gold/silver cache from conquests and their current economic situation: they got complacent and future generations lacked the skills to produce wealth. Look at innumerable African states which oust their 'greedy' elite, confiscating their material wealth, only to soon fall into poverty since they too lacked the means to produce the wealth they desired after the cash ran out.

Whether you'd like to admit it or not, most everything in this world is produced--even if you're accustomed to receiving it without knowing its origin. A negative tax structure is an idea so old it used to be conservative, and the liberals despised its simplicity. This model addresses the need for wealth production and the moral duty to help your man in need. It also doesn't handicap the poor for earning too much as today's glut of 'welfare' programs like to do.

>>8602621
>retards ask for increase in minimum wage because they can't afford to live
>increase minimum wage
>suddenly cost of living also increases
>retards ask for increase in minimum wage because they can't afford to live
>increase minimum wage
>suddenly cost of living also increases
>retards ask for increase in minimum wage because they can't afford to live
>increase minimum wage
>suddenly cost of living also increases
>retards ask for increase in minimum wage because they can't afford to live
>increase minimum wage
>suddenly cost of living also increases
>retards ask for increase in minimum wage because they can't afford to live
>increase minimum wage
>suddenly cost of living also increases
>retards ask for increase in minimum wage because they can't afford to live
>increase minimum wage
>suddenly cost of living also increases
>retards ask for increase in minimum wage because they can't afford to live
>increase minimum wage
>suddenly cost of living also increases
>retards ask for increase in minimum wage because they can't afford to live
>increase minimum wage
>suddenly cost of living also increases
>retards ask for increase in minimum wage because they can't afford to live
>increase minimum wage
>suddenly cost of living also increases
>retards ask for increase in minimum wage because they can't afford to live
>increase minimum wage
>suddenly cost of living also increases
>retards ask for increase in minimum wage because they can't afford to live
>increase minimum wage
>suddenly cost of living also increases
>retards ask for increase in minimum wage because they can't afford to live
>increase minimum wage
>suddenly cost of living also increases
>retards ask for increase in minimum wage because they can't afford to live
>increase minimum wage
>suddenly cost of living also increases
>retards ask for increase in minimum wage because they can't afford to live
>increase minimum wage
>suddenly cost of living also increases

>>8602659
>Food stamps are cancer
>Implying poor people would spend the money on food and not drugs and/or other harmful or frivious things

Not sure if you are retarded but odds seem high. Food stamps exist for an incredibly good reason.

But yeah you must be right - surely the extra money would be used responsibly by people who would use it to better themselves and their communities, just like all of those welfare bucks do. Why hasn't anyone else thought of this?!

>>8602681
lmao

>>8602677
>the higher minimum wage leaves them with no entryway into the workforce.

Thsi literally makes no sense.

Lets say a Mc Donald's needs 10 people to work a restaurant. As we know, those people are tight as they are. Most of them do all the jobs. There is no real designated cook. They all just do something when they can and most of the time they do more than one thing.

Suppose the minimum wage is now elevated. Do you think they would cut costs by removing one worker? If they remove a worker now they have 9 and are even tighter. Their service would get slow. Their service would get shitty.

Have you ever gone to a place where the service was too slow?

Have you ever gone again? Fucking not.

Jobs will not be reduced because if you take out people then your business becomes shittier. You will always need a set amount of people and when the government increases their wages the only thing that changes is which yacht the CEO can buy to his daughter.

Sorry, Susie, those fucking greedy cashiers took away some of my money. I was only able to afford the second biggest luxurious yacht in the world. I'm so sorry.

I know, such a fucking crime. Isn't it?

>>8602693
loser mcndonalds worker who never took a business or economics class detected

>>8602681
Hey, mr. smart. Do you know that wages and living costs are supposed to go up?

Ever heard of inflation? If we never elevated the minimum wage then in 100 years, most workers would be earning peanuts.

Basically, you are retarded. The minimum wage always has to be increased. The economic question is how often and by how much. You moron.

>>8602698
very creative post

>>8602638
When poor people make more money they spend it which further increases the economy. You Republicans are utter failures when it comes to the economy. Trump is gonna be more inept than Bush. He is gonna find it hard when he realizes he can't file for bankruptcy on the entire nation.

>>8602621
Hello. My name is Simon.

The answer to your question is because nobody asked me for the answer. Would you like the answer?

>>8602693
Please just read an introductory book on microeconomics.

>>8602701
I'll have two number 9's, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45's, one with cheese, and a large soda.

>>8602693
this

>>8602688
>Implying poor people would spend the money on food and not drugs and/or other harmful or frivious things

Here is an idea: Double the minimum wage and then completely defund all welfare programs.

Outcome #1: The healthy people working low wage jobs become a bit wealthier and are able to better their lives and be more productive

Outcome #2: All the welfare queens die of starvation for being fucking cancerous.

In 10 years society would literally fix itself.

>>8602621
first, define "living wage".

second,
>If you give the poor more disposable income, they will spend it on goods and services

wrong, if you pour more money in the economy there won't be more goods and services, the goods and services will become more expensive, it's called inflation you moron

the correct way to increase goods, services and general wealth of a society is to increase productivity

>>8602708
>completely defund all welfare programs.
haha

you actually think democrats would let this happen

haha

tyrone and laquisa would literally be rioting in the streets if you took their SNAP away

>>8602638
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/03/business/the-middle-class-is-steadily-eroding-just-ask-the-business-world.html?_r=0

Oops. I win.

>>8602705
If knowing more economics would fix by wrong opinion then why are there economists who support the 15$ minimum wage?

That's right, because economics is just applied political ideology.

You have a political ideology and you can hide behind "xD look at these books" but so can I. There are as many researchers supporting my position as there are researchers supporting yours. Stop pretending this is an education problem.

This is an ideology problem. It is about whose ideology is better and here is a spoiler alert:

It's mine.

>>8602705
HAHA CLEARLY YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ECONOMICS AHA READ A TEXTBOOK AHAAAHA

> probably believes in the invisible hand, praxeology, and other heterodox horseshit and had actually never touched any book related to economics

If it so blatantly obvious, explain it faggot

>>8602712
The largest welfare queens in the US are farmers and the military but since you Republicans virtue signal to hell for those 2 groups you wont stop their welfare queen spending.

>>8602712
>you actually think democrats would let this happen

Some would. But that's is not even the problem. I'm not against voting republican if they make sense. That's why I voted for Trump.

Anyone can make the change I want. However, Bernie Sanders would have been better than the Donald but I take Donald as a discount Bernie.

>>8602720
it's kind of different since farmers actually you know

make food for us to eat and without them we would fucking die

>>8602710
>it's called inflation you moron
Inflation doesn't mean a decrease in goods and services
It happens because people are able to buy them
And as long as the demand is sustainable, it will actually create more supply therefore increase the production
And making people work is almost certainly provides a better sustainability than giving them free food stamps

>>8602699
ever heard of getting a job not designed for a monkey or a high school student?

>>8602688
we would be better off if the people on food stamps starved to death. that's a fact.

>>8602731
Well, I too would love to live in a utopia where only high school students live off minimum wage but the sad truth is that there are a lot of adults in that business.

People with shitty pasts who now just want to leave that behind and work for something.

Why do you deny them that? Maybe if we help them become wealthier then their kids would be able to get the education that will allow them to not end up working shitty jobs at an old age.

I mean, be realistic just for a second. Think about the real world.

>>8602724
No fuck the farmer. It would be cheaper if the feds just had a public option in farming instead of relying on Bubba to throw a temper tantrum because he isnt getting more dollas to subsidize milking cows. Fuck wheat would be cheaper if the farmers didnt cey like bitches for a price floor on it.

>>8602717
Point me to a credible economist who supports a $15 min wage.
>>8602718
Start with marginal product of labour. Once you understand that, move on to price floors and the negative effects of those (you may need to first understand supply and demand; I don't know how little you know).

>>8602736
What is denying them from using this job to gain skills and move toward a higher paying job? How do we help them become wealthier without giving them more skills?

If you want to talk education, that's an ENTIRELY different point that I don't think anyone would deny is important.

>>8602725
inflation is the increase of general prices of goods and services

an increase of minimum wage has two possible outcomes:

1) it is accompanied by inflation/increase in the money supply, their bigger wage doesn't increase their living standards in any way since the cost of living would raise accordingly. Further, low middle class people are pushed into higher income brackets and are forced to pay higher taxes.

2) it is not accompanied by inflation/increase in the money supply. Formal unemployment rises. Low-skilled people resort to informal work not covered by labor laws and unions. This happens a lot in Spain, for instance, where 50% of their youth is "unemployed".

If you think raising the minimum wage to $15/hr would make the world better, why no $20, why not $40? Deep down you know it would either cause unemployment or be sustainable only through an inflation of the same degree.

>>8602621
>Why shouldn't the minimum wage be increased to $15?

Inflation

>>8602744
>Point me to a credible economist who supports a $15 min wage.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/author/john-komlos/

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/why-raising-the-minimum-wage-is-good-economics/

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>>8602720
percent wise, hispanics and blacks are double as likely to be on welfare as whites.

but you're a fucking idiot that distorts facts so that they say what you want them to say. also, not sure why you're attacking farmers since they are the number one employer of your pet illegal immigrants.

>>8602744
Hello. I cannot point you to a credible one that supports it, because an economist is only trying to find the ratio of the flow between goods and services.

Supply and demand.

Source and consumption.

Recycled.

Hello. My name is Simon. Have I helped you?

>>8602724

US farmers receive massive government subsidies, because their method of production for vegetable goods is completely unsustainable by itself.

Because they receive money to make things like corn, they overproduce it and it all ends up going to livestock, which is why the meat industry has feedlots instead of free range meat.

Free range beef provides more calories per dollar investment than ANY crop, including cheap shit like potatoes.

If you remove the subsidies, we wouldn't run out of food, the market would change and maybe we could finally move away from mass production of corn that only the fucking cows eat.

>>8602746
>What is denying them from using this job to gain skills and move toward a higher paying job? How do we help them become wealthier without giving them more skills?

The fact that job growth is way too slow? Where, realistically, can these people move to to increase their wealth?

The best we can realistically do is better their current working conditions, not demand them to find better jobs when many times there are none.

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hmm

>>8602760

Not him, but you're an idiot nevkbeard. He doesn't mean that thhe farmers and military are LITERALLY on welfare. He means that farmers receive government subsidies for their crops and any brain dead retard can join th military for a salary, living spac, 3 hots and healthcare.

You're missing the forest for the trees. Those things combined out-total any minority group on actual welfare

>>8602770

This is an absurd strawman

>>8602736
>Why do you deny them that? Maybe if we help them become wealthier then their kids would be able to get the education that will allow them to not end up working shitty jobs at an old age.
why should we waste finite resources on people that might be productive in the future rather then spending them on people that are and will continue to be productive?

this bullshit empathy towards those that don't deserve it will be the fall of western nations and the rise of east. chinks have no qualms about letting useless fucks starve to death or bleed out in the street.

>>8602750
>their bigger wage doesn't increase their living standards in any way since the cost of living would raise accordingly
This is obviously wrong
There will be an increase but it will be mostly trivial since there already isa huge market and a minimum amount of money injection won't change much, not to mention it will replace some other things like stamps

I can't really say much about the 2nd one, whether or not it will become the reality depends on many things that are out of my knowledge

>why no $20, why not $40
Because changing it too much will create too much imbalances in the economy
After all it isn't binary, either beneficial or not

>>8602777
t. berncuck

>>8602770
This is bullshit because of >>8602693

If that person is hiring then they literally need the worker. Most businesses cannot afford to cut on workers. That is why companies lobby against the increase.

If it was as simple as "lel then I will just hire less people" then they wouldn't fear this at all. They would be: INCREASE AS MUCH AS YOU WANT LOL!

But they need the people! They need the full timers and the part timers. So they know that they are going to lose money.

>>8602754
https://www.epionline.org/studies/survey-of-us-economists-on-a-15-federal-minimum-wage/
Disregarding the fact that he's an economic historian, 75% of economists surveyed do not support a $15 minimum wage.

>>8602778
>why should we waste finite resources on people that might be productive in the future rather then spending them on people that are and will continue to be productive?

Well, I think that we should spend on both!

We need to spend money on the homeless/unemployed

We need to spend money on the poor

We need to spend money on the middle class

It is called raising taxes.

>>8602782
>they need the worker

Not necessarily. Most businesses can run on reduced employees, they just don't want to because its a pain in the butt.

Much like an engine can run low on oil.

And worst comes to worst they just hire some kid and pay them under the table. I live in Australia where minimum wage is 17 buckaroos and when I got my first job I asked everywhere and nobody was hiring. I only got hired at the 7/11 pajeet was running and it was under the table at 8 dollars an hour

>>8602784
>One hundred sixty-six (166) completed the survey

Wow! Nice sample size! This is top tier conservative science!

>>8602621
>giving more money to people improves the economy
ignoring how retarded that is, that's not what you're doing when you're increasing the minimum wage. you're literally erasing the lower brackets, and making sure companies will replace useless workers with machines like happened recently in fast food chains in states with minimum wage increases

>>8602782
Google "marginal product of labour".

>>8602794
nitpicking sample size isn't a refutation

at best it's reddit.com/r/science tier handwaving

>>8602772
yes, and i'm saying that blacks and hispanics are more than double as likely to be on actual welfare, you know, because in case if you were too daft to grasp his jab at republicans it was to infer that they are racist.

what's also funny is that he attacks farmers because they the number one reason to """justify""" illegal immigrants being here, and i'm sure he supports them, too.

Higher minimum wage=higher labour costs for workers=workers being laid off due to cost or even replacements via outsourcing to lower labour cost markets such as China=more unemployment especially in lower income workers or less skilled workers in general=less disposable income

>>8602793
>Not necessarily. Most businesses can run on reduced employees, they just don't want to because its a pain in the butt.

No they can't. If they do so then they lose on profit as their service gets shittier and people start wanting to go to other places.

Nice metaphor with the engine running on low oil. You know what happens you run on low oil? Sometimes the engine stops and you are left in a bad position.

That is what would eventually happen to a business who decided to save on costs like this.

>>8602798
If you want whatever that is to be part of the discussion then I at least expect you to explain it yourself and why I should care. Not going to google something for you just because you don't have a point.

>>8602801
At least accept it is inconclusive then. You cannot take that as hard fact.

>>8602807
Rip I meant to a say bigger costs to businesses

>>8602787
>We need to spend money on the homeless
>We need to spend money on the poor
no, we don't.

>It is called raising taxes.
which i'm sure you don't pay.

>>8602794
There are only so many economists worth surveying.
I'm sure they'd love to survey 10,000 economists, but you'd be well below the bottom of the barrel by that point.

>>8602810
your whole analogy is fucking retarded communist command economy bullshit

forcing businessess to suddenly start paying all of their employees is dumb

a free market economy would be a car with oil in its engine running smoothly

ridiculous minimum wage increases would be like trying to fill a 10 gallon gas tank with 20 gallons of gas and then being surprised when the car fucking explodes and suddenly nobody owns cars anymore

this is why socialist policies always end in breadlines because eventually you run out of people willing to run a business

>>8602822
>forcing businessess to suddenly start paying all of their employees

Meant to type

Forcing businesses to suddenly start paying all of their employees double

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>>8602822
>this is why socialist policies always end in breadlines because eventually you run out of people willing to run a business
that's why the vast majority of people that lived in communist shitholes don't support communism.

>>8602810
The marginal product of labour is how much extra value is produced by adding an extra employee. This is basically the most fundamental concept you need to understand in order to understand the effects of raising or lowering minimum wage. If you don't want to google it, that's fine. Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

I'm already pretty sceptical about someone claiming to understand the effects of minimum wage who hasn't heard of such a basic concept. It's almost as if you've never studied any economics.

>>8602813
>no, we don't.

Yes we do! So many problems like crimes and drug addiction come from poverty. We could fix society as a whole by helping the poor and helping the middle class!

>which i'm sure you don't pay.

I don't pay taxes because I still live with my parents and don't make enough to even be in a bracket. I do pay a small health insurance tax from my paychecks as health insurance is socialized here though.

And I would pay double what I pay. I would even pay a 50% tax rate as long as everyone else also had to pay it. Why? Because I know that 50% would come back in some way or another. That is how public funding works!

>>8602827
>lowering
*raising

>>8602829
>Because I know that 50% would come back in some way or another
That's actually the core mentality difference between righ left wing economics

>>8602829
>I would pay double what I pay
Says the guy who still lives with his parents and doesn't have to pay for his own shit. I don't know how you possibly could have typed that with a straight face.

>>8602829
>Yes we do! So many problems like crimes and drug addiction come from poverty. We could fix society as a whole by helping the poor and helping the middle class!
we can also solve those problems permanently by letting them starve.

>I don't pay taxes because I still live with my parents and don't make enough to even be in a bracket.
LMAO
M
A
O

opinions discarded. it's funny how those pushing for more welfare are more than often worthless leeches looking for more gibsmedats.

>>8602826
communism is essentially plebs(workers) not realizing they need patricians(business owners) to run things

it's a clever ideology because it inherently turns the mob against the business owners and leeches from them

but when you run out of business owners the whole thing collapses because you run out of other peoples money

>>8602818
>There are only so many economists worth surveying.

I'm sure that more than 166 though.

>>8602822
You are right,a free market economy would be good.

Too bad there are people SO RICH they can bribe every politician to help them. That is why we need to push back in some way or another. If we don't then the power of big corporations would be crazy.

>>8602834
>Says the guy who still lives with his parents and doesn't have to pay for his own shit. I don't know how you possibly could have typed that with a straight face.

You also lived with your parents at a point, faggot. I'm still in college, what do you expect me to do? Stop pretending like this makes me inferior in some way or another. I am caring about the people who have it worse than me.

Also, I obviously mean in the future when I do pay taxes. As long as there is good reason and the public spending is efficient then why not?

>>8602836
>we can also solve those problems permanently by letting them starve.

Well, I hope you know what the effect of losing 50% of your country's population would be. Just ask any country who ever suffered from famine.

Glad to know this is the level of economic insight I can expect from conservatives.

Also, as I said before. I am still in college. You didn't pay taxes when you were in college you mouth breather. Are you retarded?

>>8602840
why don't you just donate to charity you faggot? Why do you want to force other people to give half of their shit to politicians?

>>8602621

This qualifies as a science topic? Weird...

>>8602840
>I am caring about the people who have it worse than me.
when you step out into the real world and meet some of those people then you will quickly realize that they don't feel the same way about you.

i can understand trying to help out those that lost their jobs, or are in education and actively trying to improve themselves, but that doesn't make up the majority of welfare recipients.

God damn it feels good to see discourse and debate from opposing side, linking sources, debating facts and interpretations

>>8602846
>why don't you just donate to charity you faggot?

I would, but it is not about me. It is about other people. Charities are not enough. Not enough people care about the problems that surround them because most of the times those problems don't affect them.

Taxes are the only way to make them care. Plus, taxes are already a necessity for a country to survive. Just raise them for the public good. You cannot have a country without taxes.

>>8602844
i also didn't have a retarded world view like you, because i wasn't a sheltered suburbanite.

a famine is also not the same as killing off those that literally can't survive without the government teat, i.e. those that have a net negative contribution.

>>8602851
>when you step out into the real world and meet some of those people then you will quickly realize that they don't feel the same way about you.

Maybe they don't but who am I to say how people who have been marginalized all their lives should feel.

I feel like if I was poor I would have deep hatred for every rich person in the world. Everyone would. They probably feel like this.

But that can be fixed. Just fucking help them a little bit.

>>8602855
>i also didn't have a retarded world view like you, because i wasn't a sheltered suburbanite.

Oh, Mr. conservative. Please tell me about your tragic life story living in the Beverly Hills hood.

>iterally can't survive without the government treat

I do believe those people are shit but that is why I say that the government should defund most welfare programs (specially discriminatory ones) and instead send all that money to public investment and increasing minimum wages.

The government has so much money. Literally make more jobs. We would need better politicians though.

>>8602856
i seriously hope you're female, because you'd be beyond a faggot if you are a guy. don't get me wrong, your opinions are retarded even for a woman, but far less so than for a guy.

>>8602856
This blind naivety led to the surge of terrorist attacks in Germany. It sucks, but reality isn't as friendly as we'd like it to be.

That said, there are other ways to help the poor other than alphabet soup programs.

>>8602853
none's denying the necessity of taxes but this hard-on to give 50% of your hypothetical inexistent income to a bunch of corrupt fucks, who'll then be "generous" with a money that isn't theirs, who will then try to buy votes with it, and who will then claim all credit for whichever goodness that money provides, is disturbing.

>>8602863
>This blind naivety led to the surge of terrorist attacks in Germany

No, no no. Those cucks decided to play with fucking islamists. That has nothing to do with me. I want to help the poor. The LOCAL poor. Islamist ideologues are already rotten to the core. The only benevolent action would be to nuke the middle east and start all over again.

>>8602864
All the problems you list could be fixed by adding more checks and balances and harsher punishments for corruption.

Plus, if a politician wins by pandering to the poor then that is good as long as they actually intend on helping them.

>>8602859
actually, i was a preteen when i came to the US. i did not speak the language, the culture i came from was significantly different, and i was white.

why does the last part matter? because since my first days in the US i've seen hispanics and blacks milking the government. i have grown up around them, and my family for the longest time was worse off than many of these welfare leeches were. i have been excluded from the good old boy's club because i have an accent and retards can't pronounce my name, and i don't have access to all the "minority" benefits because i'm white. throughout college i got to see just how much you can milk various programs, many even through the US government, just because of where you were born and the color of your skin.

i feel nothing but contempt for welfare leeches. i wallowed among them, beneath them even, and i rose higher than most of them can dream of. i'm now in my fourth year of a phd, and managed to buy three properties even on my shit stipend.

>>8602872
>All the problems you list could be fixed by adding more checks and balances

and WHO is responsible for adding those?

That's, poli-fucking-ticians.

>if the intentions are good then it's all good

wrong, their policies' consequences are more important than the intentions.

>Raising minimum wage they will fire people
I LOL every time.
If a business that relies on minimum wage workers could cut costs by downsizing, they would have done so already.

I bet you retards also think that if minimum wage was removed, business would hire more people. Why would they hire more people if their current model is already working? They would just lower wages and keep the amount of employees the same ( until the employees quit due to not earning enough, unlikely though as wagecucks would just get more jobs to compensate instead of rioting. )

>>8602884
You obviously experienced racism. Programs that help certain genders or races are retarded. If I was a politician and my programs were in place then you would have also received welfare, because I just want to help the poor.

If a black middle class guy comes to me I would spit on his face for daring to ask for welfare.

>>8602889
explain why do some people earn more than minimum wage? is it out of the employers' generosity?

>>8602889
thank god your "this sounds reasonable so the opinion I pulled out of my ass is right" line of thought it worth nothing

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2016/11/29/thanks-to-fight-for-15-minimum-wage-mcdonalds-unveils-job-replacing-self-service-kiosks-nationwide/#788472ef762e

>>8602898
>thanks-to-fight-for-15-minimum-wage

Holy fuck what a bullshit title? Do you think that Mc Donald's wouldn't have invested in that technology if their workers would have been fine?

If so then you are retarded lol. Technology replaces humans naturally. Even if their workers were earning peanuts they would still replace them with machines.

>>8602889
Is that not authoritarian though? I mean I would expect china to treat businesses like that but not the US.

How would you feel if uncle sam doubled, or even tripled your taxes and then said LOL it's not like you can leave.

>>8602898
Capitalism needs to be stopped.

>>8602894
Because those aren't the jobs we are talking about right now
>>8602898
>Technological unemployment is because of minimum wage
lmao I guess the reason we aren't all working on farms right now is because those damned minimum wage laws too.
>>8602906
There is a massive difference between "I increased taxes so your money can go to welfare queens" and "I increased minimum wage so welfare queens stop existing entirely"
Funnily enough businesses only fight against the latter. Business loves the former as it externalizes cost of employment and they still earn money from the plebs who utilize their business.

>>8602902
>human worker costs $12
>machine costs $13
>suddenly human worker costs $15
>wat do?

>>8602908
>posted from iPhone7 in a website free of charge funded by advertisement

>>8602912
Why do you assume minimum wage increases means less people on welfare

>>8602912
when you increase the minimum wage you literally erase an income bracket, and the workers that were there will have to be replaced with something. machines just happen to be a good way to do so

>>8602908
>Capitalism needs to be stopped.

I am the guy defending the 15$ minimum wage and even I don't think like this. Capitalism just needs to be patched. Patched very heavily. We have found a bug called "billionaires" and we need to fix it.

>>8602908
>Capitalism needs to be stopped.

Since this /pol/ thread still seems to be alive, I second the notion that "pure capitalism" should be slain.

>>8602920
who's we? college students who live with their mothers?

>>8602921
>the guy who whines about /pol/ in every thread is a communist
really activates my almonds

>>8602920
>even I don't think like this. Capitalism just needs to be patched.


Nope. It's garbage. All the incentives are completely backwards.


Tell me why, in your capitalistic society, a company would produce a product that could last 100 years without replacement.


Tell me that please.

>>8602914
What do you do when costs decrease for machines and even though a human worker costs $3 working 60 hour weeks only able to afford food and rent a machine only costs $2.50?
Just let everyone starve to death? Enjoy your bloody revolution.
Or you can not be a dick and help them out now so you don't have to bleed later.
>>8602918
Because one of the common requirements of welfare is that you have to 1) have a job, or at least had a job recently 2 ) don't earn too much money ( well, as long as you're not a single mother otherwise all bets are off )
>>8602919
>The workers have to be replaced with something
And what is the problem with this? The sooner technological employment is recognized as an unavoidable issue that needs to be resolved the better.

>>8602621
Why only $15? Why not $50?
Truth is, that "living wage" varies across states, and last time it was increased, the current minimum wage was the living wage back then.

No matter how many times you increase it to an arbitrary number, because of inflation, it's a futile struggle.

>>8602925
making good things means people will want to spend money on them
if you want to spend tons of money on some piece of shit apple laptop that lasts 3 months, then boy, an apple laptop is worth a LOT to you

>>8602923
>who's we? college students who live with their mothers?

By we I mean the people.

>>8602925
They wouldn't but if such a thing is possible then some other company will do it and steal all of their business.

>>8602926
>unavoidable issue
it wasn't an issue until you artificially made human workers more expensive than machines

>>8602925
Why would you want a product, why would you invest in making a product, that can last 100 years without replacement when in 10 years there is a replacement product that is a whole new tier of efficiency that changes the game entirely?
See: Brick phones to smartsphones.

>>8602925
>le planned obsolescence meme

fact: even if phones were made to last 10 years, majority of people would still replace them every 3 or so years, making the use of more durable materials a complete waste of resources not to mention more costly for the consumer

>>8602931
>it wasn't an issue until you artificially made human workers more expensive than machines
Yeah, that's why 90% of the economy is made of of agrarian farm workers. Oh wait-
That shit happened completely naturally, no government boogieman needed.

>>8602937
machines being better at works than humans can be is not an issue
having to use machines at jobs where humans are willing and ready to do a good job for cheaper because the government made it illegal is an issue
this is not a difficult concept, and you're being intentionally oblivious

>>8602621
>$15
why do you hate the poor you fucking capitalist pig? raise it to $100000 an hour and then everyone can be rich, duh.

>>8602940
Because you're only ignoring the deeper issue that technological unemployment is inevitable.
>B-but it's not necessary right now!
If we come up with solutions now we won't be in so much pain later. But capitalists don't understand this lol.
Ignore the problem of tomorrow for profit today, even if it means that problem will make you lose all the profit you made today. capitalism is so damn silly. Well, at least the CEO got a cushy severance package so he's still rich.

>>8602946
so silly maybe you should try and live in Venezuela or North Korea if that's more of your liking

>>8602928
>making good things means people will want to spend money on them

kek.

The company would go out of business. Okay? See how that doesn't work? No company in their collective right mind would build such a product because it would be stupid.

Capitalism sets up the wrong incentives. Capitalism is the lazy, default system that only exists because of historical reasons.


No one built capitalism from scratch. It was just convenient to be near sighted, gluttonous creatures.


Capitalism is the results of an entire species making near-sighted, gluttonous decisions.


Capitalism in no way, what-so-ever cares about the collective good or pre-meditates before taking action.


Capitalism will never give a fuck about creating a utopia.


Capitalism will not want universal basic healthcare, capitalism will not want a sustainable lifestyle, capitalism will not want to save our Earth, capitalism will not want to make sure everyone is happy and fulfilled.


Capitalism dies if society chooses a happiness and sustainability over greed and nearsightedness.

>>8602954
>No company in their collective right mind would build such a product because it would be stupid.

Every investment has great returns, no company ever goes broke, no project ever fails, because that would be stupid. All capitalists have to do is sit behind a table while their capital multiplies with no effort or risk-taking. That's how the world works, you got it. The fantastic world of anon.

please tell us what's your field, we must know

>>8602954
nice reddit spacing

>>8602953
>If you're not a capitalist you must be a fascist or communist
Lol
>2017
>Having any ideology at all

>>8602970

It's so I can easily distinguish my posts from the posts created by you peasants.

Minimum wage is not the solution because it stops people's ability to get out of poverty by creating their own businesses.

The solution is free money for everyone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIL_Y9g7Tg0

File: 1455807831128.jpg (17KB, 424x370px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 424x370px

>>8602991
>The solution is free money for everyone.

I have a better solution: shooting sociologists and alike on the head

>>8603029
we could give every adult citizen 10k$ a year and it would cost less than the current welfare system we have.

>>8603031
or

we could just not give anyone welfare and have minimal taxation for only the bare essentials like roads and services

>>8602621
Most people aren't even on minimum
15$ is too much as it would push companies that actually do minimum wage to automate those jobs (this isn't theory, as an example McDonalds has started to do this explicitly in response to the campaign)
An increase is fine, like 10$, and then adjusting by inflation after, but 15$ would cause the amount of minimum wage jobs to drop so it would benefit few at the peril of the (relative) many

>>8603029
The elites are abuzz about this. It's not even "sociologists". That's the main reason it will happen, not because some nerd academic told them to.

>>8603050
Also I am referring to jobs that are automatable such as cashiers. Obviously cooks can't easily be automated, that would take an even higher minimum wage. But every McDonalds would lose like 2 workers from that per store, Starbucks might lose a worker every other store, etc which would add up a lot. Also 15$ doesn't go the same everywhere, for example a living wage would be like 10 or 11 in many states for a single person, in order to support a fucking family you would need 20$+ dollars an hour which would be absolutely retarded, and so on.

>>8603059
The elites are abuzz about it because it's the ultimate bread and circus

>>8603063
You're saying it's basically more of the same, then. So what's the problem?

>>8603064
>So what's the problem?

I like living under a somewhat stable economy rather than some Venezuelan fuckfest

even with cutting all welfare(wont happen if we get UBI it'll be welfare + ubi) you still cant find enough money to pay for it

>>8603064
>what's wrong with adding more of a bad thing ???

>>8603098
do you really think we could possibly abolish all of the welfare programs in this country? that's a monumental task that is impossible

even if you DID, and then somehow did the monumental task of UBI, three weeks later, tyone would be complainiing that his UBI money ran out and that we need mo moeny fo dem programs

and then guess what would happen

the same old bullshit, we'd get welfare for tyrone so he can survive on his UBI

>>8603073
No. That's one of the preconditions of any UBI plan that has come forward so far. It is always intended to replace welfare. There is no point in having it otherwise.

If the elites want this to happen badly enough, all they will have to do is voluntarily increase taxes on themselves. All it would need is for the US to have a properly progressive tax system, such as what exists in Sweden for example.

>>8603107
Why did you delete your post

anyway here's my reply >>8603106

>>8602981
Then perhaps a certain internet website that allows you to post under a pseudonym would be more suited to your tastes.

>>8603107

Sweden corporate tax is 22%.

>>8603110
Because he thought he could hide the fact that he is clearly mentally retarded and should be euthanized by fixing the unforgivable typo that he made.

File: you.jpg (30KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 600x600px

>>8603113
>Then perhaps a certain internet website that allows you to post under a pseudonym would be more suited to your tastes.

I just want to make sure that I don't get mistaken for all of these /pol/ people floating around in /sci/


- "Debating" evolution?
- "Debating" climate change?
- "Debating" abortions (i.e. well established personhood)? - Debating economics?


Wtf? You guys realize these topics make you look like morons?


Obvious is obvious.

>>8603127
>complains about political and economic discussions
8602954
>posts what reads like a 12 year old communist's rant

w e w

>>8602954
>No, I don't like what you said, so let's assume I'm right. Okay?
not okay, you communist shithead

>>8603127
>debating economics

Are you actually even trying to imply that economics isn't a debatable subject? Are you that fucking full of yourself that you seriously believe whatever you think is right just because it's what you think?

Everything about you radiates narcissism.
>anyone who disagrees with me is a neo-nazi
>I need to make sure that my posts are really big so I look different than everyone else
>I'm so fucking smart I couldn't possibly be wrong about anything and anyone who tries to argue against is just too retarded to understand

>>8603148
> Are you actually even trying to imply that economics isn't a debatable subject?


No. That's why it was the only time I left the word "Debating" out of quotes.


Economics is not science.

>>8603161
reddit spacing

>>8603161
then don't make long shitposts about it literally crying for people to respond to you, you faggot

you don't get to go on big rants about communism and then berate people for talking about politics without looking like a retard

>ur a faget
>no u

keep your retard shit on /pol/

>>8602621
It should be adjusted for inflation.

That or remove it entirely. There's no point in having a minimum wage if you don't adjust it for inflation.

>>8603181
stop shitposting. it's amazing, the lack of self awareness you show every time you do this