Can psychedelic plants / fungi be considered forms of symbiotically

>>8458302
It's no more of a symbiotic relationship than when you eat rotten food that makes you puke.

>>8458302
How do you explain the mental effects of substances that are not directly a derivative of plants?

Bottom line, if you can ascribe a form of intelligent life to plants due to the effects the have when ingested by mamals, you can also do that with chemicals. You what you are acctually saying is that matter itself should have a form of intelligence because it can alter our perception. Which is bollocks.

File: jerry.jpg (10KB, 225x225px) Image search: [Google]

10KB, 225x225px

Wikipeia says:

>Consciousness is the state or quality of awareness, or, of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.
>It has been defined as: sentience, awareness, subjectivity, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind.

I would say that plants are capable of feeling, perceiving sensory input, etc. I'm not sure about what plants have in place of a central nervous system, but they have auxin and the like in order to respond to environmental stimuli

I'm not sure about the "sense of selfhood" part
________________

As far as the drugs themselves, you would have to argue that they themselves are capable of self awareness while inside you.

I guess if you consider the combination of the drug+the person as an entity that is distinct from either the drug or the person, than this entity is conscious. Yet, from my own experience with psychedelics, I would not necessarily say that one is entirely conscious during a psychedelic trip.
_________________

This is heady stuff, try not to lose a grip on your sober reality, while pursuing the hypothetical greater reality. Ultimately, your sober reality is what you *have* to consider to be real, because otherwise everything falls apart and you will get really really lost. At the end of the day if your exploration of these things does not benefit and better you in your sober state, so not pursue them further.

>>8458318

Is not all consciousness just chemicals moving around?

Is not all biology just chemical reactions happening because it is always causing energy to reach a more stable state?

How are new chemicals being introduced that alter the way those chemical reactions take place any less of "consciousness"?

>>8458336
>Is not all consciousness just chemicals moving around?
Way to simplisticly stated.

>Is not all biology just chemical reactions happening because it is always causing energy to reach a more stable state?
Simply not true. Some chemical reactions cause particles to be in a less favourable entropic state. This is how plants use light for nutricial benefits.

>How are new chemicals being introduced that alter the way those chemical reactions take place any less of "consciousness"?
Rephrase this mess.

>>8458318

>What you are actually saying is that matter itself should have a form of intelligence because it can alter our perception.

No, it's not just a matter of "altering." Altered perception is a thing, but it's not the only thing. An alteration example might be seeing tracers or hearing echos. The content is basically the same in that case as what you have while sober, just warped. Separate and distinct from this are states of thought and consciousness which are radically different from sober thoughts and consciousness. These I'm attributing to the plants / chemicals symbiotically working with us to participate in a new sort of intelligence.

Also, (almost) everyone already believes matter "can have a form of intelligence" by believing human brains are organs of intelligence. Brains in themselves are like player pianos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_piano). Plants / chemicals interacting with the brain are like a musician playing a piano. They create a different sort of music using the instrument of our brains.

>>8458366
Than I would rather say that the plants don't add piano players but rather extra keys.

>>8458348

>Simply not true. Some chemical reactions cause particles to be in a less favourable entropic state. This is how plants use light for nutricial benefits.

Such reactions can only occur when coupled with a reaction so that there is a net increase in entropy.

1. The sun is creating more entropy than the plant is reversing
2. The higher energy state in the plant will eventually degrade over subsequent chemical reactions, as the plant is eaten and the energy used for heat by animals

So there is a net move towards total temperature normalization in the universe where no work can ever be done.

If I'm wrong about this please let me know, I'm not very well educated in science

>Rephrase this mess.

Suppose we accept that all consciousness is just chemical reaction. ie. Your organs are just a bunch of chemicals, your central nervous system is a bunch of electronegativity changes by charged ions being moved around taking place inside neurons which are themselves just chemicals, etc.

These chemical reactions are consciousness, and the chemicals themselves are what is conscious (experiencing consciousness).

Now if you add an additional chemical to the mix, dimethyltryptamine or lysergic acid diethylamide, now the chemical reactions going on are slightly different because of this new added chemical.

Can you also call these altered yet largely similar reactions consciousness? If so than the new introduced chemcial is also conscious (the drug is itself conscious)

>>8458386
>Can you also call these altered yet largely similar reactions consciousness? If so than the new introduced chemcial is also conscious (the drug is itself conscious)

I assume that your point is that because we have conciousness and consist of particles, that these particles also should have a form of conciousness. Because it is present in the larger structure it should also be present in the substructure?

File: 1452994989033 copy.png (103KB, 256x294px) Image search: [Google]

103KB, 256x294px

>>8458302
No. Go be high somewhere else.

>>8458386

theres an interesting theory that psychedelics increase the informational entropy of neural states and thats why it fucks your thinking and shit up.

>>8458795

>increase the informational entropy

Why would anyone want to describe brain chemistry in terms of entropy? That sounds pretty crackpot to me desu.

>>8459814

theres an idea that the brain has to decrease the entropy of its sensory states in order to make inferences about causal structure in the outside world. they say that the cortex is organized hierarchically. areas higher up the hierarchy essentially try to reduce the entropy on lower levels and this resembles bayesian inference.

>>8458795
>>8459814
>>8459885

Here is the paper. Pretty interesting read.

http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00020/full

>>8459885
>>8458901

Hey, guy from the other thread.

Sensory Information is usually embellished by abstract representation in the Mind, and the state of final abstraction - Symbol - is the state of highest potential Informational quality and quantity. Simply reducing two different bits of sensory information to the same Symbol and calling it a day does happen, but it's a very basic function that most people have surpassed.

It's important to realize the fact that the takeaway of Psychedelics is that the Spiritual is only accessible through the Material. Which is basically heretic.

The visual fireworks are possibly generated by the substances themselves but it's important to remember that knowledge is unironically accessible through contemplation first and foremost.

>>8461343

well i was only emphasizing bottom-up parts to back up what i was saying in the other thread when actually i feel most people would better emphasize it as top-down; more abstract forms of information (models) drive, modulate and predict information in the lower areas (e.g. sensory).

And i wouldn't say its necessarily reducing, its more like sensory information being explained by -

>>8461348
>heretic
Wew! There was a theory that the magic mushroom brought about the agricultural and ranching revolution when the homo erectile started following around the primitive cows, eating the mushrooms growing out of the cow patties and got to thinking...so could all be viewed as a weird sort of symbiotic relationship with the monkey - cow - mushroom cycle.

>>8461639

is that you joe rogan?