Composer here. I have a bit of an interest in math, and recently

Gay.

>>8281031
>I'm a bit worried about post length, and to be honest the question I was going to ask I solved on my own while typing this, so I guess I'll just post this.

Fuck you. I read this entire post for no reason.

>>8281034
/thread

The question I was going to ask:
>Why does my equation not work with pitch sets? With traditional 12-tone rows, like for example (0,3,5,6,2,9,10,7,1,11,4,8), since you invert them using 12 and there are 12 elements, according to my equation they should both add up to 72. But they both add up to 66.

Answer:
>with pitch sets there's no need for them to have the same sum. (0,1,6) inverted is (0,11,6), and they definitely don't share the same sum.

>>8281035
Here's a better question
If I want to learn more about this kind of thing, what branch of mathematics should I look into? Probably not (mathematical) set theory but

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>>8281034
well obviously but

>>8281048
Well, many branches of mathematics can be applied to music in interesting ways if you're creative enough. Keep in mind that mathematical set theory underlies most branches of mathematics, so it's not as useless as you might think.

I highly recommend reading the writings of Xenakis. He goes in depth with his application of probability theory to music. It's very interesting.

It's been a while since I've read his book, but here's an interesting thought that's tangentially related to his ideas. A musical event can be defined as a point in 4-space (P, x, d, T), where P = pitch, x = start time, d = duration, and T = timbre. Then a "piece of music" is a subset of this space, and you can define probabilistic processes and do a bunch of cool stuff to create a coherent composition.

It barely has anything to do with serialism or musical set theory, but it's still pretty interesting.

>>8281070
Ah, thanks. By my post I was mostly just referring to the whole musical set theory vs mathematical set theory thing. From what I've skimmed on Wikipedia it's starting to look like mathematical set theory is a very general thing, and musical set theory is specifically related to certain subfields of it. Which is pretty much what you said, so yeah.

I've never really gotten into Xenakis or aleatoric music, but
>a point in 4-space
>P = pitch, x = start time, d = duration, T = timbre
That sounds really, really cool to be honest

I just got finished with Hindemith's attempted harmonic theory of everything ("The Craft of Musical Composition"). I can't get enough of these composers outlining their own music theories

>>8281043
You should be using Z/12Z op.

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>>8281050
Can you tell me pls any anime comparable with non non biyori? Or just some anime you like :3

>>8281094
Oh, anon, I'm pretty good at math and study for it. And I also like to think about music. But gosh. Music is hard. I mean really. I wanted to understand it really but it just got harder and the thing that music is a language too makes it impossibly hard to understand. Don't know how someone can be a composer. What do you think?

>>8281122
Not OP, but music isn't any harder to master than math. In fact, it's probably easier. It all basically just comes to recognizing patterns. In the 18th-century style, you recognize patterns in chord structure, the movement between chords, and how motives relate to phrases, which relate to themes, which relate to the higher level structure of the entire piece. In more esoteric styles, the patterns are usually in the relations between pitches or intervals. By studying lots and lots of scores, a composer can become as proficient at recognizing these patterns as anyone is at reading normal text. Just as learning to play an instrument takes practice, learning music theory takes practice.

>>8281117
I suspect you might be baiting /a/-style, but
Tanaka-kun wa Itsumo Kedaruge is great, the soundtrack is by the same person and it's just as atmospheric and minimalist.

>>8281122
The important thing to recognize is that in practice, music theory is absolutely nothing like math. For the composer, music theory is a big bag of techniques and styles you pick and choose to write with. Adhering to serialism creates a certain aesthetic, adhering to counterpoint creates another, using elements of both could create a completely different aesthetic. The important thing when using these different rulesets is not absolute adherence, but being aware of what effect these different rules have, and what effect breaking them has.

The other thing to understand is that music theory is half (in fact, less than half) of what you need in order to compose. The other half has no name, unfortunately, but it's what makes music an art and not a science. The vast majority of composers have little to no knowledge of music theory, or started composing and then learned a bit of theory 101 to spice things up (and frankly they're making the most money out of it, just look at any top 40 chart). The commonality of probably 99% of composers is that they play an instrument, and in the process have gained that intuition for music, especially in how melody and rhythm work. Melody and rhythm are virtually untouched in music theory compared to harmony, but a composer needs an understanding of all three.

So my advice is to get a digital piano, or even a guitar. (A guitar is cheaper, but probably worse since it's primarily a harmonic instrument at the beginner level, playing it melodically requires some serious skill.) You might even take up creepily humming to yourself like I do.

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>>8281106
Wish I didn't take until 12:30 to type that other post, so I could have looked more into what on Earth that means tonight.

>first thing on google image
Looks a bit like some of my doodles with the circle of fifths

>>8281031
automata theory might be something for you

if you dont already know, look up Wolfram Tones and learn how it works, you'll be amazed I promise

>>8281048
Category theory

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>>8281795
Ah, this kind of thing has always intrigued me, I'll look into it.

>>8281789
It's not quite related to what I've been describing

fuck, though, this looks right up my alley. I've heard about this sort of thing before, but it hadn't occurred to me to use it in composition. I really need to read more about aleatoric music.

>>8282443
isn't all live music aleatoric in the end?

>>8282623
dEEP, mAN

>>8281031
Do you have a resource on this stuff (eg. A textbook or something)? If you give me a resource in the music side of things I may be able to direct you to a resource on the math side.

>>8282681
I think OP had done this here >>8281094

>>8281239
Thank you for this answer, this makes me think

>>8282681
The best resource I've personally read is Stefan Kostka's Materials and Techniques of Twentieth-Century Music. Specifically chapters 9, 10 and 13 on the subject of musical set theory and serialism.
http://www.dmu.uem.br/aulas/analise/Kostka_MaterialsTechniquesXXCenturyMusic.pdf (a different edition from what I've read)

That textbook's just a general overview of 20th-century techniques (as the name of course suggests), though. One text it frequently cites on the subject of serialism is Allen Forte's The Structure of Atonal Music. Forte is essentially the father of musical set theory (so he's the one responsible for inventing all this conflicting terminology).

>>8282699
Ah, Hindemith's work is more of an attempted universal explanation of all tonal/neotonal harmonies, whereas serialism as a technique is primarily used to avoid tonality.

(I say "attempted", but his system really is universal, at least highly flexible. It's just that it never caught on, most music theorists didn't hear what Hindemith heard)

>>8282708
No problem
One thing to know is that you're not going to like your first compositions, no matter what you do. Soldier on and don't let disappointment at your first attempts kill your creative output.

>>8282681
I guess I'll shamelessly bump the thread once more waiting for this

>>8285112
>>8282869

>>8285129
No, I mean, waiting for
>I may be able to direct you to a resource on the math side.

>>8281031
This might interest you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg3XOfioapI

>>8285402
>0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 corresponds to the diatonic scale
>not chromatic
ultimate pleb

This is really cool, I need to read that paper he cites

>>8285402
actually, just the way lisp represents music is giving me ideas, I don't tend to write things down on sheet music when composing until it's finished already. I've always had the problem of smaller subdivisions, so writing them like fractions is an idea that really helps

>>8285402
that's cool and all but how can lisp handle the result of 10/3 ?

Can I listen to some of your work? I am also a composer and am curious to hear if you make good shit.

>>8281239

I have found that a violin is a really good middle point between guitar and piano. The only has a really nice sound, but is also more versatile in it's ability to produce a melody than a guitar. The violin also just feels a bit more natural to me.

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>>8287109
Well, this is absolutely nothing like what I've been talking about in this thread. And it's very small and simple but I'm most proud of it.
https://clyp.it/kgd34th4
I wrote this for my little sister who had been playing violin for only one year, so I did my best to write something that wouldn't be out of place in Suzuki book 1. The recording is just a piano, but the piano RH doubles the violin part.

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>>8288234
second page

>>8281031
>Serialism and musical set theory as techniques are usually applied to pitches, but can be applied to other musical things if you're autistic enough.

>applying a perfect intuitive concept to something where it has zero intuition backing it

just why

>>8288750
Like I said, autism

>>8287116
Really I was just recommending instruments based on how easy they tend to be for a complete beginner to start playing. Instruments in the violin family are not very beginner friendly at all, a beginner can play a nice sounding C on a piano in a second, but on a string instrument it takes a while of developing habits before you can play a nice sounding C. If the violin is more natural for you, though, absolutely stick with that instead of learning another.

>>8288234
nice

>>8285112
the last time, I swear

>>8291223
Fine, here you go

http://poisson.phc.unipi.it/~fidanza/matemusica/papers/Mazzola%20-%20Topos%20Of%20Music.pdf

>>8291798
Ah, cool, thanks.