Do insects feel pain? Discuss. Biology student here, I think

>>8161579
you answered your question

>>8161582
I think he just wants to know what other people think

>>8161582
Really?
Oh man, ain't I such a smart guy?

>>8161582
It's cause OP loves jerkin his circles.

>>8161579
Define "feel"
:^)

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>>8161579
>noxiceptors
/thread

>>8161610
Oh dude, I'd jerk any kind of circle there is, I'm impartial to oblongs too.

>>8161620
The psychological part of the psycho-somatic sensation that is the response of pain

>>8161626
English is not my first language; in my country the terms "nocicettore" and "noxicettore" are the same thing (from the latin noxa = damage)

>>8161629
Disregarding the fact that I asked you for the definition of a verb and you gave me the one of a noun:
Ok what is "psychological" to you then?

>>8161579
No subjective experience for insects and subjective experience for humans

or

No subjective experience for insects and no subjective experience for humans?

>>8161620
I think he means "feel" = qualia

>>8161640
Any emotional and sensorial experience?

Dunno, what's yours?

>>8161579
>Even unicellular organisms can sense the ambient they live in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvOz4V699gk
Clearly, they are in great pain. It is unethical to do experiments on them.

>>8161662
I could go on by asking you what an experience is.
But what I really want to say with all my questions is basically this:
We "only process" pain aswell.
We pick up the stimulus with some receptor (sry if my teminology sucks, but I actually hardly have any clue about biology, desu) and it then traverses our neural network (CNS) and leads to a reaction.
This magic process of "feeling" is (as far as i know) just a term we gave to the whole thing as a means to astract what we couldn't understand back then.

>>8161579
Of course they do. How else they would survive?

>>8161698
>>8161716

But we have an emotional response to the pain we experience; insects lack nociceptors (the receptors you mention) wirch means that they only have some sort of self preservation, but in a way totally different from ours, a locust has been observed eating without the lower half of his body.

no, their brains arn't """"developed"""" enough

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>>8162382
your """"""""""""""""brain"""""""""""""" isn't """""""""""""""""""""""""developed""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" enough.

>>8162393

THATS A FUCKING TARDIGRADE

TARDIGRADES ARENT GERMS YOU FUCKTARD

>>8161579
Yes, absolutely. We feel pain about 100x more intense than a human does. It's why you should never try to squish a bug as their minds overload with pain and basically shut down. It's why they twitch after you crush them.

>>8161579
What does it mean to feel? Does it need to trigger some specific physiological response?

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>>8162773
P-piderman, is that you?

>>8162894
Well, the definition of "pain" implies a psychosomatic response.

>>8161579
Not in most cases, they lack Nociceptors, the nerves necessary for feeling pain. Flies are a notable exception.

I think your approach to this question is way to mammal-like.
Try another one. Not from subjective point of view but from behaviour:
Do a bug feels pain? / Do a bug feels orgasm?
What's its behaviour regarding to this different topics?
Than try to refect with your mammal brain.
Which animal would try to hurt itself - even if it cann't feel pain?

Biology is GAY

It is not so much that animals can feel pain; it is whether they can feel injustice, betrayal, or regret.

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>>8163478
Pretty rude

>>8163346
I think I must answer "no" to your first questions and for the latter, no animal would hurt itself, self preservation is a thing; even an amoeba wouldn't commit suicide.

yes they do you edgy faggot

>>8163609
Nice SCIENCE you got there m8.

>>8161579
Nocirecptors*

>>8163869
Yea, as I said >>8161631

English is not my first language, sorry

>>8163571
Okay, an Organism like an insect can't reflect about death to decide "I don't want to die." and a dog can't decide "I want to have a buch of cute little puppies".
So what's the matter of self preservation in your opinion? Just a reflex?

>>8161579

>They can process it
>without "feeling it"

What more is there to "feeling it" than being able to process it?

>>8162122
>a locust has been observed eating without the lower half of his body.
This true for humans too. You know there are people who lost their legs/parts of their body.
I'm pretty sure they eat too.

>>8166958
A psychological response.

>>8166939
That's actually an interesting question, and I can only speculate; but as humans we do have primitive reflexes that don't involve any thought about the matter, maybe it's just that, a series of thoughtless responses, like when you feel something puncturing your skin and you just act. As a matter of fact, why do bacteria "want" to live? What's "self preservation" for them?

>>8166964
Not while being eaten alive nor immediatly after being gutted dude.

Experiments show that arthropods with electric current running through their brain continue eating with no problems, but mammals refuse to eat if it means stopping the pain.

>>8166968
>>8166973
>As a matter of fact, why do bacteria "want" to live? What's "self preservation" for them?
I'm no biologist, but this got me thinking.
Maybe it has something to do with the kind of self-awareness / intelligence we have?
Primitive life-forms are kinda like they have a primitive sensing-response "program" perfected by evolution. They can only minimally adjust it. They are like the motor control in your washing machine. It can merely do a few adjustments based on how much shit you shoved into it.
Biology implements a system just like electronics does. The biological differences you are questioning are the differences between systems.
Feeling pain in humans is far different than in anything else. Our processes dealing with pain are a lot more diverse and long term than in anything else. For example it has impact on our culture. We make Special Forces teams to stop someone or something from inflicting pain, yet there is no imminent pain inflicted upon us when we do this.
I think it's a valid and at least partially quite correct view that ultimately our instincts drive us. How sophisticated our brains are decides the best course of action to fulfill these instincts, long term thinking ability, sometimes replacing them in places where "logic" gives a better ability to survive.
Maybe some instincts are simply unchangeable though.
I think the insect keeps eating, because it is not intelligent enough to comprehend the situation like we do. It's the best action for it to follow as far as it can understand it.
The real question is more philosophical than practical: why does the basic instinct in (almost) everything is survival ("the will to live")?

>>8161579
Why wouldn't they feel pain? If we feel pain, then why do you have to start inventing some sort of magical explanation to why insects would not be able to feel pain? To somehow justify experimenting on and torturing them? It's very obvious to me that pain is the best feedback for an organism to avoid harm to itself. Insects are not robots; if they have a sense of self-preservation, that must be triggered by some sort of signal, which would be pain. So, to answer your question: yes, yes they do. They feel tremendous pain when you rip off their appendages or crush them.

>>8167065
His question is more like "Do they feel pain in the same way/sense as us?"
Maybe the definition of pain, what it means for us, is quite different for them.

>>8162894

Human pain?

To process information, while being aware of said processing and being aware of that awareness.

>>8161579
Insects typically have an aversive response to almost anything touching them, so it is quite hard to determine if something is painful or just unpleasant to the insect.

Some insects (e.g. grasshoppers and locusts) have no anatomical separation between mechanosensory and chemosensory information processing in the thoracic ganglia. It may be that they analyse the "pleasantness" of stimuli arriving to their legs by different combinations of touch and taste.

>>8167065
I'm not inventing any scuse, and as a matter of fact, I don't torture insect for fun, it's just an empirical question based on the lack of nociceptors in the arthropoda phylum, and the answer is not as simple as you put it smartypants.

>>8167083
>>8167049

That's interesting, to sorta answer >>8167049
I find that the answer, as living organisms, is that, like a fire, consuming is the optimal way of existing, a cell "lives" in the sense that its internal "factories" continue working and consuming things turning them into other things and its objective in life is finding other "things" to turn into other "things".

So more cells started working together, because so their transforming process would be more productive, and that's you; basically, a cooperations of factories, consuming and transforming, and thats the universe.

The universe is alive in the sense that it wants to consume, to explode, to go on, it's like a match that when ignited, continues to burn all the O2 'till there is none.

"To live" means "to consume", but as a biology student, my most concerning question is "Where does the will to reproduce fall into this mindset?"

I can't quite be sure of anything, why would a virus want to replicate its DNA? Why would a moth turn into adulthood to mate, and then die starving because it doensn't have a digestive system anymore?

And that's withouth mentioning human awareness, wich is a bizarre and mind blowing turn of events.

>>8161579
Noxiceptors? How British is that shit holy crap

>>8167207
latin actually.

Noxa = damage

But I found out that the term doesn't exist in the english language.

They have TRP receptors, which are coded for by the same gene as in humans. When humans are born with defects in this gene, they can't feel pain, and when we disrupt the sodium channel TRP uses we get anesthesia.

Insects feel pain exactly like we do. The world is a nightmare. Can you imagine what it's like to be a mouse stung by a wasp? An insect is nothing volume-wise compared to the mouse. It's entire body would begin to dissolve. Every cell, melted away.

>>8161579
>pain
>implying qualia
FUCK OFF PHILOSOTARD REEEEEEEEE

>>8166973

These insects don't know English. If others of their kind reject them because they're mutilated, they're none the wiser. In other words, they don't label things as 'bad' and 'good;' bad and good are sensations attached to certain physical acts, and insects don't have language to pass on the knowledge 'You're screwed up real bad when you're missing half of your body.'

Imagine being born alone in the wilderness. There's no one to teach you anything. All you know is your hunger and lust. You're gonna keep going, because there's no one to tell you to stop.

Have you ever seen mutilated mammals attempting to drink and eat? They'll do it even when they don't have mouths - there's even a gif where a guy who shot his face off attempts to pour water into his wound, and the subtitles relate that he's asking for a drink.

>>8167250
TRP receptor family receptors sense a myriad of different stimuli, not just pain.

Take your physiology class again.

>>8161579
probably yes. in any case hurting them should be avoided as much as possible.

>>8167332
Not sure where but I remember seeing that fish aren't conscious? If fish are p-zombies, then I'm sure insects are.
Finding link rn

fish should be left alone too, or even more.

>>8167324

>TRP receptor family receptors sense a myriad of different stimuli, not just pain

Indeed.

>Take your physiology class again

Why? I knew that there are multiple types of TRP receptors.

Are there any molecules that function solely on one TRP receptor or another? Anesthesia often induces numbness in the area as well, to the point where physical activity is impaired. I've been numb to the point where I couldn't feel a yellowjacket sting, and I couldn't brush or wash my hair.

I can't speak about the specific receptors, because I've never consciously used drugs which bind to and shut off particular TRP's. Without consciously knowing I'm ingesting such a specific drug and making a mental note at the time, I can't define which receptor causes which particular subjective sensation.

Menthol would be about the only molecule that binds to something other than TRP1 that I've ingested. A general statement about the subjective sensation of TRP receptor activation is all I can speak about.

Had anyone ever gone into the lab, and dosed themselves with molecules that are selective to only one type of TRP receptor, and done this for every type? A John C. Lily of anesthesia, if you will.

>>8167332
fuck you, mozart, you're not fooling me again

>>8161620
shoot yourself you fucking idiot

>>8161579
Pain is proportional to intelligence, OP. Big, smart brains need a stronger, more complex signal than a smaller brain, just like a big mass has more inertia. For humans, pain must override our big, abstract, conscious, verbal, control, while for insects it is nothing bigger than a I/O machine input.

To help find something, I've checked into the literature to find anything beyond "insects don't react the same way as humans, so they must not feel pain," and I've found an old review on the topic, hopefully with enough information/citations to necessary information to help come to a conclusion without resorting to philosophy.

https://www.ikhebeenvraag.be/mediastorage/FSDocument/41/Eisemann-164.pdf

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>>8167049
>The real question is more philosophical than practical: why does the basic instinct in (almost) everything is survival ("the will to live")?
Excellent point!

I'm not well versed in biological terminology but I think animals such as insects processes reality much more like a computer rather a mammal or something. A mammal still processes in a basic, methodical way of 'choices to survive' and instinct, but has a better developed, or at least better related to us form of awareness and processes of this driving force.

But as for any sort of physical pain I have no idea of their perception of it because I'm an armchair scientist.

>>8166973
>The real question is more philosophical than practical: why does the basic instinct in (almost) everything is survival ("the will to live")?

Probably becouse everything without this instinct just died? So from the very beggining of life itself, creatures with survival insincts survived and ehir offsprings did this and so on. You cant survive without will to live, so you cant have offsprings.

How this started... well, randomly, i guess, some bacterias were rendomly created with a "program" to survive. Some were created randomly without it, and so they just vanished.

>>8163494
>It is not so much that animals can feel pain; it is whether they can feel injustice, betrayal, or regret.
those are highly complex social functions and only even an evolutionary advantage for very highly developed mammals.

>>8167565
this, ladies and gentleman, is the post linked to when you look up "bullocks" in the Encyclopedia Britannica.

>>8161579
Do humans other than yourself feel pain?

Discuss.

Obligatory: http://reducing-suffering.org/do-bugs-feel-pain/

>>8161579
I think they feel Weltschmerz too.

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>>8166973
>emotional
Still basic process of instinct and tendencies. But they are numerous enough to make up your opinion on them.
>>8167049
>Philosophy
>>>/trash/

You are all assuming it's too hard to understand the human brain so what if I start putting names to categorize everything deliberately?
>Everything that hurts me is bad!
>And everything that makes me feel good is Great!
And so on. KEK

>>8171250
you fucking dipshit

philosophy is a science, unlike your biology bullshit

>>8171234
What about Schadenfreude?

>>8161579
Of course they do not feel pain, they're insects