I get really pissed off when I hear that most Ph.D's in

>>8103223
Yeah. wtf.

>>8103223
How little they are paid should make it clear that they are really not that important at all.

This is exactly the issue, most postdocs are working on some weird extremely specific research project that has a few applications in its field and will have no meaningful impact on anyone's lives outside of academia. The vast majority of academic research is like this, and most of the research with actual real-world applications involves some level of equipment and is done by experienced professors or researchers getting substantial compensation. The postdocs and recent PhDs getting paid shit are typically not working on this kind of stuff, they're working on their interests at universities.

And you seem to be very confused about the source of technological innovation. Most new technology is developed by engineers and researchers working in R&D at tech companies or industrial corporations. Postdocs aren't usually developing new technology, they're writing papers about discoveries that only very rarely have applications in actual technological innovations. And once again, engineers and researchers at tech companies get paid plenty of money.

>6 papers
>6
No wonder he's homeless.

>>8103242
Actors and Sport stars are probably highest paid people on the planet besides business moguls and they have no importance for humanity

>>8103246
> autism speaks

>>8103246
That's the other half of the issue - supply and demand.

There is relatively little demand for highly qualified intellectual labor, by nature much more work is done at a lower level than at the highest level of intellectual discourse. But a PhD is technically the highest intellectual qualification available, and the barriers to getting a PhD are not terribly high. So there are far more people with PhDs, who are technically qualified and would like to work on cutting edge theoretical topics, than there are actual cutting edge research positions.

So since there are more PhDs than there are opportunities for them to make meaningful contributions, the value of a PhD is relatively low. For those not skilled enough to make it as tenured professors or in some prestigious research post, they simply aren't adding much value to society and, like any other lower-paying skilled job, they are choosing lower compensation for getting to work with their interests.

>>8103223
That doesn't annoy me that much, what does piss me of is that the average football coach will earn about 100 times what ever a PhD would earn. This is at a university, a place of learning, supposedly.

>>8103274
Yeah. wtf.

Also, the president of the Uni here makes literally a million dollars per year.

>>8103242
another CS fag

The free market decides what your labor is worth, not the abstract difficulty of your chosen college major.

>>8103284
Go program code bonobo.

File: Picture_14_5[1].jpg_itok=cage7abA.jpg (134KB, 780x663px) Image search: [Google]

134KB, 780x663px

>>8103223
War anon.
It was not the football player or the bankers who won WW2. It was cold hard science.

Outside of war the minor life improvements science might bring can't compete with the massive amount of entertainment provided by generic pop star.

>>8103298
>Outside of war the minor life improvements science might bring can't compete with the massive amount of entertainment provided by generic pop star.
They can, the general public is just too stupid to understand that.

File: image.gif (4MB, 454x209px) Image search: [Google]

4MB, 454x209px

Simply anon

Its the Jews
Its all the Jews doing

File: dfd[1].png (196KB, 1211x1259px) Image search: [Google]

196KB, 1211x1259px

>>8103304

>>8103304
I want /pol/ to leave.

>>8103274
The football coach brings in a lot more revenue for the school than a professor

If a professor brings in a lot of research money, they'll get paid. Look at UCLA - Terry Tao, who brings in a lot of grants, makes almost $600k a year counting benefits. Prove your worth through research and you get benefitted from that

>>8103308
take your meds anon

>>8103252

> There is relatively little demand for highly qualified intellectual labor, by nature much more work is done at a lower level than at the highest level of intellectual discourse.

That's what I keep saying, you have +7 billion people on this planet. Even the top 1% when it comes iq/academics/intellect what have you is still too much for too little positions.

No one or sum of nations can feasibly satisfy that labor pool. Especially now during the computer age where you can render some of those top 1% intellectuals useless.

>>8103242
>>8103252
>>8103287

Five-star posts.

OP, this comes down to market value (more or less). In other words, the value of Lebron James' or Rihanna's skill sets, for example, is greater than the value of a physics or math (or, for that matter, chemistry or molecular biology) PhD's skill set.

Tens of thousands of people, hundreds of times per year, are willing to buy tickets to witness (pun intended) Lebron James play basketball. Millions more are willing to watch on TV, and they'll send millions of dollars purchasing merchandise.

Now, compare that with a physics PhD student or postdoc or tenure-track faculty member. The "good or service" (that is, what is produced, which in turn is consumed by the marketplace and thus determines market value) is an experiment. Experimental findings are published. Federal research grants are obtained.

So, the value of the good or service in the market is far, far, far less.

>>8103223
Not all scientists are worth that much. The scientists who are actually worth as much as you think they are worth are paid well and typically either have tenured positions or lucrative R&D jobs. The scientists who aren't paid much aren't worth much. Having a PhD and being a "scientist" doesn't by default make you an excellent human being who is worth so much money.

They get paid according to supply and demand. Don't expect money if your PhD is in underwater basket weaving.

Have you seen what plumbers/tradesmen get paid recently?

>>8103223
>WHY DON'T THESE GUYS GET PAYED A SHIT TON MORE MONEY?!??!
Because a plumber is responsible if your pipes leak after he fixed them.

>>8103223
>WHY DON'T THESE GUYS GET PAYED A SHIT TON MORE MONEY?
For what?

>>8103304
NO dude no.. I came from /pol/ to escape that.. I cant take it 7 days a week

File: 1453133935424.jpg (24KB, 800x800px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 800x800px

>>8103242>>8103223
>>8103347
>>8103323

>How little they are paid should make it clear that they are really not that important at all.
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH. Plebs from the middle class thought that if they got educated like bourgeois, they would have the bourgeois life.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH FUCKING PLEB.

>Done a PhD and 3 postdocs
>Published ONLY 6 papers
Seriously? What the fuck was he doing, jerking off all day?

>>8103609
You have a good point

>>8103223
OP I'd recommend reading:

http://matt-welsh.blogspot.com/2010/11/why-im-leaving-harvard.html

http://matt-welsh.blogspot.com/2016/01/academics-we-need-to-talk.html

http://matt-welsh.blogspot.com/2016/04/why-i-gave-your-paper-strong-reject.html

http://www.amazon.com/PhD-Not-Enough-Survival-Science/dp/0465022227

These resources provide valuable insights.

>>8103287
Actually, they are actually worth even less, since they survive due to government grants for the most part. In general, PhD in academia produce almost nothing of value to society. The best path is trying to get into industry after a PhD (or before if you can).

>>8103223
They could start their own business and apply all the math and physics they learned to improve it.

Unless they're in a poor country or have filed bankruptcy, they shouldn't have any issues.

>>8103223
At the core, what does the brain of an average person value?
Eating
Killing
Fucking
People with business that help others feel or get them closer to those things will be millionaires.

>>8103223
>less than a plumber

So become a plumber! A good plumber will never be unemployed.

>>8103674
>In general, PhD in academia produce almost nothing of value to society.
Just because something isn't immediately valuable now doesn't make it not worth pursuing. Christ.

>>8103712
Well, it's your decision. But then don't complain afterwards that it's impossible to survive wiith such a low wage.

>>8103223
>ironically, if any of you thumb sucking entitled brainbrats had rolled up your sleeves and actually learned a trade, you'd nearly be rid your student debt.

>uses """plumber""" to denote "inferior laborer"

Kill yourself right now. Drink two cups of bleach, mix it with ice tea if you want. Bye.

>6 papers across 3 postdocs and a phd
was he just sleeping the whole time

>>8103242
>How little they are paid should make it clear that they are really not that important at all.

Wrong from the get go. Is knowledge not important?

If we assume that knowledge has no demand then we are a destitute society. If we assume that scientists do not produce knowledge then the method of science is not efficient. Now which one do you prefer, or suggest a better assumption.

If we go by the demands of the average man then we set ourselves for the average, is this what a society needs? Surely the people in charge are not average.

In the UK post docs earn below £ 30,000, and to get a permanent residence (green card) one of the rules is that they must earn above £ 35,000. Since these immigrants are highly skilled and notably important to society the government made the clause that immigrants working in academia are exempt from this rule. I have given you a reason why a western government values these skills more than plumbers/nurses. When academics leave a country it is considered brain drain - a severe blow.

The average man is not useful for anything but exchanging paper currency and inflating numbers in a capitalistic machine.

>>8103242

This is pretty much true.

1) You are basically getting paid for teaching undergrad math. You don't really need a PhD for that. In the past it was a convenient way to support a professor, who was glad to do it in return for time to do his own thing. Schools now realize they can get an adjunct to do the teaching part for much less, and just hire a few hotshot people to bring cred to the department. They can even save money on the hotshot by giving him job security and requiring him to teach only once or twice a year in lieu of cash.

2) The vast majority of math researchers will produce only a trivial amount of new knowledge. Most of those contributions will be in fields of interest only to a small number of other researchers.

>>8103223
>These guys are the smartest

Obviously not if they shew-horned themselves into a shit position in life. The market determines what people are worth and the market has determined that these people are shit. They should have gotten 6 bachelors degrees instead of a useless doctorate and two postdocs.

If they where really hot shit they would start there own companies and prove there worth themselves.

Because smart people don't remember to act like children?

>>8103748
>muh quantity! don't care about quality but muh quantity!

>>8103771
I'm really not sure when /sci/ became vehemently against knowledge, learning, and scientific curiosity. We might as well merge with /biz/ at this point and just create /money/.

>>8103739
>low wage
Scientists in academia tend to make around or above $100k. Is this a low wage to you? What on earth would I even do with more money than that besides let it pile up? The other option is that you're just making things up to fit a narrative, maybe in a weird attempt to justify your life decisions to yourself.

>>8103347
>Federal research grants are obtained.
Bringing in huge amounts of money for the university.

>>8103845
>I love to deprived of pleasures, so other people should be deprived of pleasure and love it like me

>>8103771
>I have given you a reason why a western government values these skills more than plumbers/nurses. When academics leave a country it is considered brain drain - a severe blow.
Wow you are one smart cookie. Why do you think that liberals and libertarians need scientists ?

the problem of the liberals, classical and new, is that that they disintegrate once that they lack of an enemy. liberalismS work well when explicit authoritative systems are on their soil; otherwise, there remains only the praxis of leisure, available to the masses by the entertainment industry, permitted by the faith in their Human rights and their sciences (and the faith that science backs up the HR and that the HR backs up the sciences).
today, even leisure even is ''ethical'', typically in tourism, so that you can claim to endorse the liberal mores while enjoying yourself.,.

the problem is that positivism and structuralism have been the pinnacle of the various liberalismS and the liberals, of any kind, cannot get out of their post-positivism and post-structuralism. they have no idea on how to save their doctrines.
so today, they try to incorporate anew the religion, the religious phenomenon as they put it in social sciences, after admitting that their liberalismS is just individual hedonism and social apathy.

>>8103872
>Why do you think that liberals and libertarians need scientists ?

Surely it seems as though you do not believe that science cannot lead to knowledge? In fact it is a religion? Correct me if I am wrong on these accounts. Curious post however.

Do enlighten me on why science has to be viewed as a religion or as a replacement for one...

>>8103223
If money is so important to you, find a job that pays more. That's what /sci/ would say to, say, a liberal arts major, so it works for math and physics majors who remain in academia.

>>8103306
stupid picture...
if the white guys wife is not his sister and considering his wife fucked a black guy, his kid cant look similar to his dad...

>>8103929
the kid cant look similar to the white guy*

/biz/ here

Maybe the PhD retards should look into economics and then maybe they would realize that they need to discover something actually useful to another person and then convince them that their work actually has value to human beings. Writing math jibberish and circle jerking the intellectual community and governments for stolen tax money really has no value.

>>8103868
What pleasures are you being deprived of at $100k a year? I have disposable income on a grad student stipend for fuck's sake.

>>8103223
>WHY DON'T THESE GUYS GET PAYED A SHIT TON MORE MONEY?!??!
They would if the work they were doing was actually worth more to society than what the plumber was doing; which it is not since if it was they would be scooped up by research labs or offered full time faculty positions instead of getting stuck in post doc limbo with all the other retards.

>Scientists a worth a hell lot more than a banke
FUCK NO, most scientists are stamp collecting lab rats you delusional fucktard.

> Without scientists, none of the technology that we all depend upon would exist.
Ever wondered why engineers and industrial scientists have such high salaries?

>These guys are the smartest
So. Fucking. Delusional.

>>8103246
>Actors and Sport stars are probably highest paid people on the planet besides business moguls and they have no importance for humanity

Remember, for every millionaire actor or Sport Star there are approximately 1,000,000 starving ones who will never make it

The problem is that /sci/ takes unsuccessful academics and holds them up as the norm and compares them only to successful engineers, actors, athletes, whatever. In reality, unsuccessful academics are in the same boat as unsuccessful engineers and miles ahead of other unsuccessful people.

>>8103274
If the football coach does well it funds most of your equipment and studentships try to be a little more greatfull.

File: 1451702088014.jpg (32KB, 272x275px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 272x275px

>>8103223
Here's the reason why
>Football player makes millions because him and his team bring in even more millions than they're being paid
>CEO Runs a massive company and is responsible for the jobs of thousands of people
>Doctor is a MOTHER FUCKING DOCTOR
>Banker makes bank for the bank so in return he makes bank

Scientists
>Drains money for research purposes
>Results don't make the place money, just "fame"
>Basically the scientist is a money sink

Welcome to the place known as outside of your imagination

>>8103959
>>8103274
>>8103312
The football coach brings in money solely for the athletic budget. The money from this athletic budget is then put towards paying the coach. The coach does not make money for the university at large, and he does not take money from anyone else.

>>8103962
>the only value I'm able to see in anything is money
I'm sure you believe that Star Wars are the greatest movies in history?

>>8103312
>Terry Tao, who brings in a lot of grants, makes almost $600k a year counting benefits. Prove your worth through research and you get benefitted from that
This. You can all stop being entitled bitches now. The system is fair. You just suck. You should be working as a miner or barista, not using your daddy's money to fuck around in grad-school.

I'm graduating as a geologist soon, our work is often absolutely vital. People also are uninformed and don't care. I was told by a neighbor last week that there's no reason he needed to worry about earthquakes because this isn't an earthquake zone ... this despite the world's second most active normal fault existing within EYESIGHT of where we were standing (Wasatch Fault btw).

There is so much people know nothing about and people are the ones paying us. Unless people, average Joe people, take an interest in science and math they won't pay you, ignorance will continue, and the lives of scientists and mathematicians will become more difficult and delaying important research sometimes for decades.

>>8103962
>>CEO gets to the top of a massive company, so he can screw over as many workers as possible
Ftfy

File: 1447342915534.png (451KB, 554x692px) Image search: [Google]

451KB, 554x692px

>>8103967
OP's entire post was more or less centered around each job's payment so I formatted my response to fit that as wekk as 90% of the world works because of the exchange of money.

Have more smug animu faces

>>8103742
Just so you know, most scientists and enigneers who are worth a shit agree with you 100%.

I'm so fucking sick of all these entitled millenial idiots who think paying for a degree somehow makes you worth more than a blue collar worker. It doesn't.

>>8103223

An actual scientist would come up with something amazing or useful and make money off it, not routinely write 600 page papers on "The Effects of Changing an Insignificant Parameter on a System of Relevance to No One."

>>8103845
>Scientists in academia tend to make around or above $100k. Is this a low wage to you? What on earth would I even do with more money than that besides let it pile up?

These type of people probably try to keep up with the Kardashians by living a luxurious life. I'm sure most of these people grew up well off and never knew the value of a dollar.

>>8103967

No. Gone with the wind is.

>>8103242
this. i got offered over 65k fresh out of uni with no experience with a b.s.
engineers do the important work in progressing technology

I get really pissed off when I hear that most scribes who work for the pharaoh are getting payed shitty amounts of money, like less than a baker. And they have to constantly save their asses by currying the royal family's favor. And they are under lots of pressure to write faster so that they can maintain that favor.

I want to know right now, WHY DON'T THESE GUYS GET PAYED A SHIT TON MORE MONEY?!??!

Scribes a worth a hell lot more than a priest, a merchant, a general, and even doctors. Without scribes, none of the technology that we all depend upon would exist. These guys are not only the source of all technological innovation, but also the only people who have real insight into how the world works? These guys are the smartest, and yet much dumber people are getting payed a lot more money then them.

What the hell is wrong with society that they can't pay their most important members enough money for them to sustain themselves???

>>8103223

If people with PhDs in Math and Physics are not happy in academia then they should go job hunting in the job industry. There are many employers who are willing to pay more than academia for someone with a PhD in Math.

>>8104002

where is this statistic?

>>8104052
We seem to be moving towards a society where every person can read and write. In your view this would open up new vistas for humanity and lead to untold of new wealth for us all. If you take a look at our current situation, however, you will see why this is absurd and hence why scribes are paid so little.

What does the average scribe do? They keep track of tedious figures of little relevance outside of taxation and large business dealings. The record history which is no more than a curiousity for those with time for lesiure. They jerk off about meaningless abstractions like the volume of a frustrum or fraction decompositon. These things have little value for our society on the whole and the averge person has no use for them.

What would your fantasy world where everyone could read and write look like? Would it be a place full of untold of riches and magic made out of imaginary shapes and numbers? Would it be a place where the farmer has more knowledge of the world than do our greatest leaders? No, at best it would be a world where the farmers waste their time reading silly nonsense written by other farmers instead of gathering crops as they are supposed to.

Please come join us in the real world.

File: 1451238303364.jpg (20KB, 556x561px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 556x561px

>>8103549

>>8103223

>most Ph.D's in math and physics who remain in academia are getting payed shitty amounts of money, like less than a plumber

Well, maybe if they knew how to do their own fucking plumbing the market value of plumbing skills would go down. The reason why plumbing is paid better is that plumbing is an actually useful skill, while the math Ph.D's aren't worth shit in real life because they have no applications at all. Suckers should've learned a trade instead if they wanted money.

File: 1463335222459.jpg (85KB, 640x640px) Image search: [Google]

85KB, 640x640px

>>8103933
>Maybe the PhD retards should look into economics and then maybe they would realize that they need to discover something actually useful to another person and then convince them that their work actually has value to human beings. Writing math jibberish and circle jerking the intellectual community and governments for stolen tax money really has no value.

Congrats you understand the most basic element of economics? That doesn't require "looking into" lol

>>8104062
>>8103223

http://www.ams.org/profession/data/annual-survey/2014Survey-FacultySalaries.pdf

>WAHH I DON'T MAKE A MILLION DOLLARS
>WAHH I CANNOT AFFORD MY LUXURIOUS LIFE AND I STILL HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WITH MY MONEY

Entitled millenials.

U people are lumping all PhDs in a pot like they are all the same. It has as much value to talk aobuith all PhD as much as talking abouth all undergraduate students.

I'm doing a PhD in information retrieval and machine learning. hope to get a quant job after, not interested in academia at all and so are my colegues.

There's a girl doing a PhD at my uni in social sciences where she is trying to help old people do some shit, i Don't even know., I laughed 2 hard intenaly when she told me that. Those are the kind of PhD that want to apply to academia and they are the majority.

>>8104104
>U
FUCKOFF AND DIE

>>8103243
Right? That's like less than one publication a year across a PhD and 3 postdocs. I'm a chemist so I have my name on that many publications in a good year, maybe writing one or two myself. Is that publishing rate even normal for a mathematician?

>>8104104
Haha I can't believe someone would seriously devote their time to helping others what a dumbass lol :^)

>>8104104
>There's a girl doing a PhD at my uni in social sciences where she is trying to help old people do some shit, i Don't even know., I laughed 2 hard intenaly when she told me that.

>laughing at someone because the person wanted to help other people and wasn't doing it for the money

I said wow.

>>8104147
here's your (you)

>>8103967
>the only value I'm able to see in anything is money
>I'm sure you believe that Star Wars are the greatest movies in history?

People like to forget that Star Wars won Seven Oscars back when that actually meant something

>>8104117
Different fields publish at completely different rates, so it's absurd to try to compare. I don't know what field the guy in the picture is in.

>>8103977
Intelligent people tend to be intelligent regardless of profession. There's literally no actual reason to believe that the number of really gifted blue collar workers is particularly low. A lot of people who also feel the crushing despair of modernity DON'T find the "happy rainbow land hypothesis" of academia any more realistic than the notion of "working hard, saving up, investing smartly, enjoy time off".

Besides, you're objectively more free to pursue happiness if you're not a debt slave, because if you are, you have to take any odd jobb to stay afloat, instead of having the ability to spend time training a skill, something nearly impossible if you don't get your apprenticeship with a grant or savings. Most places in the US don't give them out free.

I think that's what birthed the whole LibArt burger attendant-meme. That there is indeed a large number of middle class kids who think that plumbing, carpentry, masonry and construction is "beneath them", for so long, they have no choice but to literally work the lowest rung of the fast food chain.

Which is probably something you can turn around to your benefit, for sure, but it's a lot harder than training a skill.

>>8103549
Underrated.

Nobody holds a scientist actually accountable for his mistakes.

Worst case he's asked to correct or withdraw his conclusion. Big deal. Babby lost his rattle.

>>8103223
If you're not passionate enough to do it for shit pay then get a PhD in something the private sector wants, or learn how to better market your skills to a job that can use them. The world owes you nothing, and unfortunately life is nit fair, it's petty

>>8104206
That and people think a high IQ is a skill and nothing else is needed. I know plenty of people who do trades who aren't academia smart but just as knowledgable in their disciplines

>>8104223
>>8104206

You are either trolling or living in a fantasy land. The "smart" people in trades cannot hold a candle to people whose job is primarily just being clever. It is no wonder people who are naturally smart gravitate towards fields where they can use that intelligence in comfort and are not required to do manual labor.

>>8104258
>The "smart" people in trades cannot hold a candle to people whose job is primarily just being clever.
Of course not, however, most people with STEM degrees do not hold these types of jobs (or any), but like to pretend you do.

I don't care if you have a physics degrees, if you're serving me coffee or working IT it's because you were a shit at it and a plumber holds far more respect in my eyes.

>>8104271
>or any
Why does everyone here think that nobody has a fucking job? Have you ever seen unemployment rates for people with degrees, especially STEM degrees?

>>8104276
Temp work doesn't count.

File: you_are_wrong.jpg (56KB, 386x426px) Image search: [Google]

56KB, 386x426px

>>8104283
I'm done having this argument. If you want to ignore evidence and believe that everyone but you is unemployed and scientists sit around all day jerking each other off for a pittance, then more power to you.

>>8104298
I said most people with STEM degrees don't hold STEM jobs OR any, which is accurate, a minority is unemployed or in service/tempshit then a large chunk is in finance etc. while less than 50% of graduates actually find professional work in STEM. This is true even for some engineering disciplines.

>>8104271
It's true that the people who get an undergrad degree in STEM and then can't get a job probably aren't that smart, but there are a LOT of people who are extremely smart and fail to get into academia because there just aren't enough jobs. The smart ones will still at least get a programming job or something but it's not like only the people who make it as professors are the smart ones.

File: Untitled.png (43KB, 1211x295px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 1211x295px

I don't get what you people are talking about. These are essentially average salaries of these type of tradesman. The ones who make 60-70K are the exception and not the rule.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Degree=Doctorate_(PhD)/Salary

According to that link, majority of those make way more than the average of a tradesman.

Literally 5 million unfilled vacancies in trade professions in the US alone.

>muh unemployment.

>GET A FUCKING JOB

>>8103223
>I want to know right now, WHY DON'T THESE GUYS GET PAYED A SHIT TON MORE MONEY?!??!
>like less than a plumber
Because they're fucking useless, you said it yourself.

> Without scientists, none of the technology that we all depend upon would exist.
We don't need that many.

File: races_skulls.jpg (30KB, 444x259px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 444x259px

>>8103308

Associate Chemist here, /pol/ and the data usually coincide.

The truth is rarely what people want to hear. If you want to make a positive difference in the world you'll need to distinguish convenient half-truths from actual truth.

>>8104849
Well they are certainly willing to misrepresent any data they can to further the agenda.

They do not care about the truth. They only care about pushing the agenda, in every post, using any means necessary. That is why the best policy is not to engage them at all, and just tell to >>>/pol/.

You know this. Don't play stupid.

Serious question. If i put out a job offer for say 20 bucks an hour, could i hire my own full time guy with a doctorate in math?

>>8104900
You've opened my eyes. Time to do some tradeschool and then start my own business.

Have fun making me rich because you're all afraid of real labor.

>>8103223
>he fell for the 300k starting meme
A mathematician or a phyisict can potentially earn a lot of money, but only if they work in the industry. Because the money is in the industry, not in research and education. I mean come on.... if you're trying to become a scientist just for the money, you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Do you think Einstein, Newton, and Da Vinci did it for the money?

>>8104906
No kidding. I am not rich but at that rate i could hire a couple scientists to do some research. Interesting thought

>>8104258
I've met plenty of smart mechanics and carpenters who enjoy doing the labor of their work because it genuinely interests them, manual labor doesn't have to be shit work

>>8104938
I personally know a carpenter, he is very smart and all (not kidding), but he had a shitty pay, so he gave up his job to work in a factory instead where he got a more secure salary.
Personally i think that factory job is as low as you can get. People literally lose limbs there. But whatever, it's his life.

>>8104797
Well a PhD is exactly entry level, is it is 4 years undergrad and at least 5 years post undergrad. Its an unfair comparison, look at average pay between trades and undergrad

File: 1445746214231.jpg (622KB, 2400x1836px) Image search: [Google]

622KB, 2400x1836px

>>8103649
Thank you, those were good reads

>>8105075
No problem anon. Glad you enjoyed it.

>>8104950

Undergrad Math/Physics/etc don't do shit academically.

The smart ones who paired or supplemented their undergrad degree with useful skills usually make this:
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Degree=Bachelor_of_Science_(BS_%2F_BSc),_Mathematics/Salary

Engineers/Applied Math/Applied anything make this:
http://www.thebestschools.org/blog/2012/07/02/best-paying-careers-bachelors-degree/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

One should be working while getting their post doc anyway.

>>8103771
A lot of knowledge is hardly knowledge. Knowledge connotes some level of usefulness (immediate or long-term), otherwise it's just trivia. Real knowledge and discoveries are rewarded, as has been said in this thread.

>>8105096
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/10/26/cb.ten.math.jobs/index.html?eref=ib_us

Here's another one, but yeah.

>>8105096
Yes but the comparison isn't exactly fair when a PhD gets more education then the average entry level tradesman. I'd imagine some of the mechanics who work in the military and airlines have to be pretty smart dealing with airplanes, submarines, and other vehicles.

File: 10070767.gif (263KB, 300x165px) Image search: [Google]

263KB, 300x165px

>>8105275
>I'd imagine some of the mechanics who work in the military and airlines have to be pretty smart dealing with airplanes, submarines, and other vehicles.

>>8105284
Yes because any grease monkey can work on those things

>>8103223
For the same reason scientists don't get a lot of ass. Money goes into the hands of psychopaths who get lucky enough to not get caught. Scientists are simply not antisocial enough to demand high wages

>>8105292
Speaking as a person who used to work on flight control systems in the Air Force, yes. Any grease monkey can work on jets, subs, tanks, munitions, and even nukes.

>>8103223
Because they don't need to. Academia is still already pretty crowded as it is. There aren't even enough postdoc positions for all the PhDs that want them. Yep, we're talking about skilled and high stress positions that pays 35k a year at most, have no job security, and need you to relocate half the world away. That's how fucking overcrowded academia is.

>>8103839
>complaining about the impersonal nature of a conversation on a science and math board

Also, guy, the subject of the thread is, "what causes X commodity (commodity is science and math related) to cost a certain price", and you wonder why people from /biz/ are commenting in the thread?

It's a fucking mystery, isn't it?

>>8105275
PhD who go into industry get far more money. As someone said in this post, if you work for academia for money than you're on the wrong area of work. Furthermore, One can easily get a great job with a good salary with just a master's degree.

>>8105292
>>8105302

I know for a fact that all branches of the US military allow uneducated drunks and stoners to service aircraft and other critical devices. Sometimes they fuck up and die in the shop. Whoops.

ok but if there were no plumbers then there would be no indoor tap water and we would have to have wells everywhere and throw our poop in the street and it would smell and spread disease.

plumber is hard job and so many people fell for the university meme that there is currently a huge demand for it as the boomers go into retirement and leave a huge shortage in skilled tradrs positions that the younger generation thinks itself above.

Here in canada journeyman plumbers have crossed the 6 figures mark.

>>8105469
Drunks yes, but not stoners. All branches have a relatively strict policy on drug use, plus they test for it.

>>8105490
Someone will pay a bunch of jobless STEM grads $10 an hour to create an automated system that does most plumbing work.

>>8105495
which seems totally backwards to me. I'd much rather have someone who smokes pot performing aircraft maintenance than someone who shows up drunk. Just a matter of attention to detail.

>>8105490
I bet you refer to electricians, technicians and plumbers as engineers.

>>8105520
maybe if you learned useful skills such as hard work and not being a pussy with soft hands you could have a 100,000$ plumbing job too.

>>8105528
Only physical labour must be hard work forget about mental work that's definitely not hard. Just dream it up as they say.

>>8105535
obviously if it was that hard there wouldn't be hordes of university grads begging for demeaning jobs that pay scraps.

>>8103595
The middle class is the bourgeois you idiot.

>>8103223
Too many of them. Offer and demand, bitch.
I'm a data scientist, some of my colleagues are physicists and reconverted to data science.

>>8105552
and there isn't a horde of unemployed trades faggots?

>>8103223
a phd and 3 postdocs and he's only published 6 papers?

no wonder he has no job

>>8105498
Idiot.

>>8105771
No. There's a 5 million jobs skill gap. Positions waiting for you if you pick up a wrench and stop squealing like a cunt whenever you get doo-doo on your hands. Do you even know how to read?

>>8105771
I seem to have
>>8104799
Seen this
>>8104206
Mentioned a
>>8103742
Couple of
>>8103708
Times in
>>8103677
The course of
>>8103649
This tread
>>8103549
But of course
>>8103390
It's not like reading comprehension matters for shit.

>You half ape.

>>8103242
>wealth correlates with merit
When will this hilarious randian meme end?

>>8103771
>if we assume that knowledge has no demand then we are a destitute society

It is not an assumption. The fact that they are paid so little indicates that these people(their skils and their knowledge) is not in demand.

Do you value knowledge? You certainly seem to. Then why don't you pay for these scientists to live and eat? Why should it be up to someone else to pay for them simply on your say so? You think that knowledge is of very high importance and value. Are you the sole arbiter of what is valuable and what isn't? Can't each person decide for themselves, with their money, what is valuable and what is not?

>the average man... etc.
The "average man" is a plumber, a fisherman, an electrician, a janitor. All of these occupations very clearly and directly provide value to the world. Where does the value of an inconsequential publication come from?

>>8106076
The amount of money you have is determined by how much utility you provide for other people. Deviant ideology is unnecessary in the face of basic economic reality.

>>8106179

Lol, you're delusional.

>>8106179
I wonder, was a guy like Alexander Fleming particularly rich?

>>8106189
Why should a scientist whose only product is a journal paper make more money than a plumber who does useful work? Really, these scientists should feel lucky that they can be simultaneously employed as professors.

File: Flag_of_German_Reich_(1935–1945).svg.png (40KB, 2000x1200px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 2000x1200px

The jew are rich

>>8106240

Majority of PhD holders are jews.

>>8106294
source ?

I AM NOT JEW !

>>8104258
>job is just being clever
>costs $200k+ to get access to that job
There's literally no doctor that wasn't rich as fuck.

>m-muh stipend, free ride
It's because you're a minority or a woman. Your average A grade cisgender white male doesn't get any money.

>>8103223
>I don't understand economics.
>For example, I believe:
>Scientists a worth a hell lot more than a banker, a football player, a CEO, and even doctors

If scientists are worth so much and willing to work for so little, why isn't somebody hiring them all and making mad bank?

(Hint: It is poor Return on Investment. Anybody who buys surplus scientists at above market rate will soon find that they're not actually worth more than market rate.)

>>8103967

>I want more money for scientists

>We aren't allowed to measure their worth in money though

Get. Out.

(Additionally: It is not "only able to see the value of money," it is the very highly sought after skill of being able to see the monetary value in all things. If you do not have this skill, it is OK that you don't understand why scientists have a hard time getting high-paying jobs in academia, but then you shouldn't talk about it like you know.)

>>8103223

>PhD
>3 Post Docs
>6 papers

Remarkable failure.

File: fugg.jpg (101KB, 1060x404px) Image search: [Google]

101KB, 1060x404px

>tfw my father has a phd in quantum physics and he lives in a rented house in the ghetto

the golden age is over lads

>>8104117
>I'm a chemist so I have my name on that many publications in a good year, maybe writing one or two myself.
I think "first author papers" is implied in OP's image. Even then, that's pretty low. Doctoral students in astronomy/astrophysics average about 2.5 papers before graduating. Postdocs need about 2 first-author papers per year to stay competitive.

>>8103223
Are you guys really too dumb to understand basic supply and demand?

>>8106429
B-but, my niche degree is just as valuable as a degree that has a higher demand!

>>8106429
Are you really too dumb to understand that OP is complaining about the lack of demand?

>>8106381
>Studying something a hundred years after it was discovered and expecting to make a significant contribution
Your dad deserves to be raped by niggers

>>8103223
This is why education should be less accessible. It's become less "I'm really smart and I want to change the world" and more "I'm doing this for kicks". Education would be better if it was elitist and heavily biased towards STEM and really smart people.

>>8106706
Absolutely not. Firstly many other STEM areas suffer from a shortage. Secondly fields outside of STEM are very important, thirdly forcing people into STEM who don't want to be in STEM is stupid, fourthly more elitism just benefits the rich and finally restricting public education is pretty totalitarian. Let people study whatever the hell they want and live with the consequences. If you don't agree go live in North Korea.

>>8103232
FIRST POST BEST POST

Every response in the thread could be summed up in "human shortsightedness", and paying scientists a ridicolously low amount of money is only one of its many manifestations.

>>8106755
First off, if those people don't want to be in stem, then they can become a farmer/physical labourer. There's no point in having useless studies like art history unless it's to please the masses. Secondly, in this hypothetical situation elitism only benefits smart people. You can't fake intelligence forever, and you can't buy it either, so money wouldn't have any massive impact.

>>8106609
He doesn't imply that anywhere in his post though. All he states is that scientists don't earn enough money, of course that is (at least partly, considering most scientists get their wages from the state) the result of a surplus in supply/shortage of demand.

>>8106814
>Secondly, in this hypothetical situation elitism only benefits smart people. You can't fake intelligence forever, and you can't buy it either, so money wouldn't have any massive impact.
You should step up your sociology m8. Maybe read some Bourdieu.

>>8104864
>Well they are certainly willing to misrepresent any data they can to further the agenda.
>They do not care about the truth.

Yes, this is true of anyone with political beliefs. It's best to simply look at scientific metrics. What is the IQ distribution across the races? Across the sexes? Is it coherent with evolution that a man should want to stick his ding-dong into another man's anus? Science yields a clearer picture of the world, Anon. The simple truths of science are what have come to be known as "the red pill". Accept or deny, science doesn't care because it is objective and points towards one, darwinistic, view of society.

go work in an oil refinery in iraq if you have the science or engineering knowledge. all the money is right there, you just gotta wear a vest to work and have some people protect you. you'll feel like a special snowflake every day.

>>8106814
>First off, if those people don't want to be in stem, then they can become a farmer/physical labourer. There's no point in having useless studies like art history unless it's to please the masses.
So you are forcing people to be farmers against their will? How is this not Mao-tier? Either you're a communist or you're just autistic to not see how it is not okay to prevent people from doing what they want simply because you feel it's "useless to the state"
>elitism only benefits smart people
50% of Oxford and Cambridge university admissions come from public schools despite them making up 6% of British students. Either rich people are smarter or....I don't know....maybe... perhaps money buys you a better education? In the prospectus for my Sixth Form they put (bless them) that they were the only school in the borough to get a pupil into Oxford or Cambridge in five years. So in five whole years not one student in the entire London borough of Enfield of population 324,574 got a place at either Oxford and Cambridge yet every year half of Harrow School gets in.

>>8106069
All the idiots who lose their jobs in the great road automation can fill them.

>>8106364
>If scientists are worth so much and willing to work for so little, why isn't somebody hiring them all and making mad bank?
Irrelevant.
Presumes the value of scientists the OP refers to must be tied to immediate commercial profits.

> (Hint: It is poor Return on Investment. Anybody who buys surplus scientists at above market rate will soon find that they're not actually worth more than market rate.)

The pseudoscience of Economics will eventually ruin us all.

>>8106852
>How is this not Mao-tier?
I'm okay with that.

>Perhaps money buys you a better education?
Abolish that sort of schooling. Make every school functionally equal, and then money won't matter.

>>8107012
>I'm okay with that
So you're an edgelord. Everything else you say will now be disregarded.

>Waste your 20's in "education"
>Know nothing of value
>Hurr why can't I get a good job?

>>8107012
>Abolish that sort of schooling. Make every school functionally equal, and then money won't matter.
Why do you want to make education shit all around? there's a reason american public schools are among the worst in the developed world and american universities are the best in the developed world.
are you a bernie cuck?

>>8107028
more like

> do education
> have good education
> job wants job training, not education

>>8107021
Okay then

>>8107044
Having a standardized quality of school doesn't mean that it needs to be bad. All I'm suggesting is that we get rid of the obvious favoring of the rich in favor of an obvious bias towards the intelligent. If you're smart, awesome. If you're stupid, rot.

>>8107044
>bernie
>cuck
Explain to a European exactly why Bernie is bad. All I ever hear about the guy is "hurr he's liberal!"

>>8107073
He doesn't know anything about anything, such as which banks he would break up (despite that being the foundation of his platform). He doesn't even know how many dictators North Korea has.

After decades in office, he's accomplished approximately nothing. He's reviled throughout the senate by both parties

He's corrupt and will probably go to prison for tax fraud after the election is over.

His budget plan is pure fantasy and depends on ridiculous levels of economic growth (which won't happen with his middle class tax increases), and will increase the deficit to disastrous levels.

Get off of 4chan and go to where real people are (in case you haven't noticed, this is a neo-Nazi site where anybody to the left of Trump is a 'cuck', whatever that means), and they'll be happy to explain the many problems with this candidate.

>>8107098
But Trump has never even held any office, how is he any better?

>>8103223
OP it sounds like you are talking about a surplus of Ph.Ds. Those that actually have a job that fits the degree are usually paid reasonably well.
What is your source for "getting payed shitty amounts of money" ?

>>8107098
He just said he's European though. People outside your country aren't exactly into your politics even if we're forced to hear about it all the time.

>>8107103
Did I say that Trump is better? Holy shit learn some basic logic.

Of course having a thin-skinned conman in charge of the nuclear arsenal is as bad or worse than a cranky socialist demagogue, but I recommend picking up a book that explains what the arrow symbol means in predicate logic before trying to think about science or politics.

>>8107121
Well as far as I know it's Trump, Bernie or Hillary and nobody here supports Hillary so if you trashed Bernie I assumed you're a Trump supporter.
>>8107117
Lol this. Why do I even know who your candidates are?

>>8103242
>most postdocs are working on some weird extremely specific research project that has a few applications in its field and will have no meaningful impact on anyone's lives outside of academia

This is overstated.
If it is partially true, what would you attribute the problem to ?

>>8107126
>nobody here supports the candidate whose stated policies won't definitely cause a recession

Even if this website is full of losers there are still some people who care about science funding.

>>8103549
/thread

>>8103977
Yeah you can thank their boomer parents who bought into the whole "you have to go to college to get a good job!" fad of the late 90s and early 2000s. Everyone got boned and the only winners have been the universities

>>8106172
A plumber benefits people with a skill, so do scientists. You are a really sad person if you think it's unimportant to pursue pure research. If I'm working on some "inconsequential" project, getting paid shit, and a plumber screwing about with pipes is getting paid more, that is unfair. I could do his job, or any other low level job, as could pretty much anyone. It is a shitty, easy job.
A scientist has to be smart and knowledgeable and view things in a certain way. This is a far greater and more difficult skill to achieve, if you even can. They are a rarer and more valuable part of society, and so should be treated with more respect and support than they currently are.

File: Hot_Robot_At_SXSW_Says_She_Wants_To_Destroy_Humans_The_Pulse_CNBC.gif (1MB, 320x180px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 320x180px

>>8103649
oh snap! thank you anon. actually this is really cool.

>>8106999
>Presumes the value of scientists the OP refers to must be tied to immediate commercial profits.

OK I am going to pretend you're not trolling and actually give a serious reply:

"What else?"

You're like the people who accuse medical economers of heartlessness because they treat people like numbers.

And the answer to those people is: Only once you treat people like numbers can you do the math that lets you figure out how to make that number as high as possible. Yes it is very sad that your decrepit Aunt Oda has to remain hobbled because she doesn't yet qualify for Medicare, but what you don't realize is that curing Oda will mean we cannot cure Paul and Lisa, who are just as crippled but with something cheaper to cure.

So I go back to my original answer: "What else?"

What else is there to measure the value the market should pay for them, other than their market value?

Or did you feel they should get paid outside the market? On what basis? Why should they get a government check and not I? Are they more valuable than me? Explain, using numbers so we can actually compare across large statistical groups. And for some reason, none of those numbers are allowed to be in dollars because you apparently don't mean "market value" when you talk about their value.

>>8103223
No one cares about your vague progress concepts, only money will improve our lives and well being.

The free market will take care of any problem.

>>8103312
Terry Tao, the most gifted mathematician on this Earth, earns only 600k/year, meanwhile LeBron James gets paid 24mn/year for playing basketball.

File: 1460262589380.png (39KB, 310x208px) Image search: [Google]

39KB, 310x208px

>>8107660
holy shit so now pursuing knowledge is a problem? what have we done? hold me /sci/

>>8107660
We're all just holes, that money goes into. Just gaping mouths whose only purpose is to be fed.

>>8103223
Because they can and that's the way the world works.
Dumbass

>>8103223
>I get really pissed off when I hear that most Ph.D's in math and physics who remain in academia are getting payed shitty amounts of money

It's not about money. It's about doing what you like regardless of anyone else, and still get paid. That's a true luxury.

>>8103242
>Most new technology is developed by engineers and researchers working in R&D at tech companies or industrial corporations.

Most new technology is putting what maths & physics PhD invented into context. "Engineers" don't do any such research - they lack the qualifications. And yes, they are paid a lot to put things into context.

File: 1435634159577.jpg (110KB, 960x816px) Image search: [Google]

110KB, 960x816px

When the revolution happens
>>8103952
>>8103962
>>8106364
>>8107660
are going first.

>>8107848
The academics ARE the bourgeoisie you fucking tool.

>>8107852
Not anymore with how many people are going to school.

>>8107785
Uh, I think it was literally on here, an electrical engineer was profiling some new material, testing it's properties, documenting them, and suggesting uses. I could be wrong, but my damn TA was working on pyrovskites at uni.

Math and Physicists might come up with something, but they're shit at putting it to use. Worse than an Engineer would ever be at research.

>>8107727
That's a sad way of looking at things.
If there is no other point to life, then at least we should strive to know why it exists, and how.
Basically, if life has no other goal then the only logical thing to do would be to try and understand why that is the case.
This is what the academics are trying to do

>>8103246

>actors and sports stars
>no value

Is entertainment not valuable? A-list actors and sports stars not only provide some degree of meaning to millions of lives, but they also generate hundreds of thousands of jobs. They deserve the cash they get.

Plus, it's not as though every actor and athlete is rolling in cash. 1% are fabulously wealthy, the other 99% need to wait tables on the side just to get by.

>>8107647
It's weird that an anon suggesting that furthering scientific knowledge through research has merit beyond immediate monetary income is accused of trolling. This board honestly should just be shut down.

>>8103223
CEOs perform a job that commands that kind of salary.

A good CEO can mean the difference of hundreds of thousands of dollars of profit, and so good CEOs are worth that much.

Scientists that work for companies that do R&D get paid their worth.

Someone fresh out of school has little experience. A college degree alone doesn't really mean anything. There are plenty of business majors who aren't CEOs and there are plenty of math and science Ph.Ds who don't have an actual job.

>>8106821
>wanting to make decisions for other people based on averages of large demographics

/pol/ is exactly like an SJW

wtf are u talking about plummers make bank lol

>>8108402
>CEOs command that salary
>Nordic countries lawfully replace male CEOs with "inadequate" female ones
>earnings don't change
So important CEOs can cock around for 10 months a year and get raises for firing 10% of their workforce instead of making money.

>>8108435
Why would they be paid so much if they didn't do anything? Corporations aren't charities, the shareholders of a company wouldn't want to pay someone a lot of money for nothing.

As for Nordic countries, I have no clue what you are talking about, so I can't comment.

>>8103242
>t. Stefan Molyneux

>>8107647
> tied to immediate commercial profits
> "What else?"
Since it will be at least a few decades before the typical American kid will Return On Net Educational Investment,
why have school at all under your theory ?

>>8108457
>why would they get paid so much if they didn't do anything
Because they have a reputation, and the ultra wealthy literally determine your future by reputation.

Marissa Mayer is a great example. She's literally Aspergers or Autistic, and has done nothing but cause Yahoo's revenues and value to fall since she was hired in July 2012. But she has a vagina and is/was under 40, so that clearly made her superior to traditional male CEOs. That's why she has to fire 1700 people (15% of workforce) just to try and keep her job, and if fired within a year of Yahoo selling it's business, she'd get $55 million.

It's like rent control and other means of stopping landlords from being hyper-jews, instead of making less money, they just quit altogether. The rich do not use the same financial logic you or I do.

>>8103223
There are too many scientists. Almost all scientists who didn't do their PhD at Harvard, Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, Princeton, Caltech, Chicago, etc. are basically worthless nowadays.

>>8103223
>yfw FULL TIME PLUMBERS unironically earn more than FULL TIME SCIENTISTS

>>8108474
I'm not sure I use the same financial logic as you either, I'm having trouble following what you are saying.

File: 1454220165912.png (239KB, 557x605px) Image search: [Google]

239KB, 557x605px

>>8103242
Best post right off the bat. Nothing more needs to be said. /thread

>>8108533
It's not a good post. Right off the bat, he complains that research is too "specific." What the hell does that mean? If your research isn't specific, you aren't going to get anything done.

>>8103252
> There is relatively little demand for highly qualified intellectual labor
The key word here is "labor". You think science is just a 9 - 5 job to be controlled by CEO's and the economics theory of labor capital.
Most intelligent people know that higher learning, knowledge, and the progression of science and technology itself, is more subtle in nature.

> a PhD is technically the highest intellectual qualification available
This is just more job interview jargon.

> So there are far more people with PhDs, who are technically qualified and would like to work on cutting edge theoretical topics,
> than there are actual cutting edge research positions
Oh my goodness you actually get it.
There is more time spent building pro sports stadium salaries than supporting science research to improve our future.

> they simply aren't adding much value to society
So how would you employ them ? Or are you going to put a censored quota limit on Phd science ?

> they are choosing lower compensation for getting to work with their interests
Nobody actually "chooses lower compensation" let alone a cardboard sign holding job.

This is all just the same Economics derived BS.

>>8108540

Not that anon but the key concept the original post is talking about is that some people are going into fields with few applications.

It's not so much the fact they are going into a "specific" field, but the specific "field" they're going into lacks many applications. Particularly practical ones that can yeild immediate and at times high monetary income.

>>8108817
>Particularly practical ones that can yeild immediate and at times high monetary income.
Eh, that's not really research. R&D and true scientific research are somewhat different things which serve different important roles.

That said, scientific researchers actually do make good money, more than the average plumber, so this whole thread is kind of pointless anyways.

>>8103987
This describes a problem with the so called "publish or perish" syndrome, which can affect the image and perception of science.
LOL

I'm currently gonna transfer to a state university in the fall for computer engineering. I was thinking of getting into a trade while going to school. What's a good trade that you guys recommend as I study at a university? Hopefully a trade that won't take too long to learn and isn't expensive. I live in southern california if that makes a difference on trades.

1) A lot of the important science was done at research institutions (IBM, Bell Labs, ...), companies, not (just) at academia
2) Post-doc should just be seen as a road to professor. It's only a short time in your career, salary is not that relevant. Problem is that many people are not professor material but still do Post-doc.
3) Professors in science and engineering make a good living. $100k-$300k+ and they get tenure. Everyone wants to make more of course.

>>8107177
Now you just sound like your ego has been hurt. First, if lower level careers, as you put, could have their work done by anyone then no scientist would need engineers. They'd have just built the LHC themselves. And if your pure research has no practical applications, why is it so valuable to society as a whole, since it won't ever benefit from it as a whole? Since you're discussing pure knowledge (or actually just calling the scientific branch of it "knowledge") and defending any production of it should be rewarded, do you defend that philosophers should be paid the same as this phd scientists?

>>8109516
The industry labs you list also hire people as post docs.

>>8108365
>has merit beyond immediate monetary income

Oh, it also has merit in future monetary income.

>>8107848

That's a lot like the Russian revolution, really. Step one: While purging your political enemies, also purge everybody competent.

Step 2: Get your shit shoved in by Nazis because you have no skilled officers left.

Step 3: After the war, get your economy shoved in by the west because you have no skilled economers left.

>>8108787
>Nobody actually "chooses lower compensation" let alone a cardboard sign holding job.

Fucking yes they do. Jesus you have no idea how the job market works do you? I could double my salary if I was willing to work off-shore, but I choose lower compensation because I'd rather work on land.

And these sign-holding people choose lower compensation because they'd rather work in Academia than industry.

File: 090312-fermi-map-02.jpg (28KB, 575x343px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 575x343px

>>8103223
> The problem with the American job market, especially the science market, is that employees kids are hired at those companies. The only way to get a job at a science company otherwise is to be an immigrant and apply with an H1-B Visa.
Part II - \\ Employees Kids \\
The kids are more than often dumb. They graduate from some ass backwards school with a 2.3 GPA and get hired. They of course do a poor job at the science related company because they are slow. Its not that the GPA system is broken but rather some people are truly fucking stupid {Trust me I was a stupid denier once and tried to reach out to stupid ppl by telling them theres hope and to believe in themselves. Trust me its pointless}
\\ Immigrants \\
There are all types of immigrants: British, Chinese, Russians, South Africans, Australians. I just listed the types that are generally hardworking, highly intelligent and come to America and actually make shit happen. Mexicans in general are highly motivated, highly dedicated and hardworking, the types with perfect attendance but will fall asleep during class and be too stupid to read a question being asked because they don't understand it.
\\ Part 3 Hard Work can get you anywhere \\
This is a lie.
-Side note 1-
Work cleverly and willfully, learn where you are most able to do things in life and look for a job related to that. Can I help in this area, no. Just graduated with two science degrees and I can't find a job anywhere, hey, because the employees have their dumbass kids working and 75000/ yr and will never actually give something to the company.
The place for creative minds is but a wasteland, our skyscrapers go up, but they should actually point downwards since all they've done is caused human beings to devalue and deject and desocialize themselves.
This is Space Cadet, Space Cadet out

>>8109435
Computer Engineering is a trade, it just happens to have academic roots with academic roads if your interested, but the last 2 years you aren't learning science (well you are but less so than physicists), you're getting tools and skills, you're learning how those tools progressed and how were they built etc'

File: 1463200529754.jpg (59KB, 655x527px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 655x527px

>>8109897
what the fuck did i just read

>>8105099
*A lot of information is hardly knowledge.

>have BSc in CompSci and MSc in Statistics
>decide to do computational biology for PhD
>everyone except my advisor is a biologist at the institution in question
>computer and stats illiterates the lot of them
>end up doing assorted data analysis for everyone
>if it was anything innovative I published the method and tool as my own first author paper
>publish 10 first author papers and get my name on 26 other publications in the three and a half years of my PhD
>also get my name in "Acknowledgements" section of nine theses
>do 12 month postdoc at the same institution afterwards
>advisor/boss moves on to another institution after that
>I get offered his position (actually he was a Senior Lecturer and I became a Lecturer) and accept

All in all I'm doing okay.

File: phd102008s.gif (40KB, 600x545px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 600x545px

>>8103274
>the average football coach will earn about 100 times what ever a PhD would earn
Time for that graph again, I see.

>>8110598
>Grad students make 18k
>Then they will spend half of their life earning 66k
>Then after they are old and hate life they will earn just 95k

Academia, not even once.

But anyways, the graph makes sense. Every year things look good the CEO claims it was all because of him and just raises his own salary.

Provost handles the allocation of resources so obviously he will allocate some resources in his pocket.

Similarly, the dean manages the budget for a section of the university he will just allocate some of that budget in his pocket.

Professors are not seen as the people who make the money as everyone above them takes the credit for a "good year".

Then football teams bring money and prestige so they are not going to hire your gym teacher, they are going to hire an ex-pro player that won't do it for cheap. In other words, even the coach is directly involved in the money the university gets.

>>8110659
Value is actually the apparent value.

People pay to be entertained so sports rank highly.

Later in life when they are lying there, dying there, it is way too late to think about funding a research project on what is now killing them. And anyway, the retired are not as powerful in directing the money flow as the younger in (gainful?) employment.

>>8103347
>Rihanna's skill sets

>>8110659
>Then they will spend half of their life earning 66k
The tenure process isn't that long.

>Then after they are old and hate life they will earn just 95k
That's a good salary.

>>8104117

in the physical areas, the name-attribution to papers has been pushed to stupid, legitimately bullshit extremes. Oh, Sinjar proofread a table and gathered one datum (and we know him, he's a cool guy), thus! "authorship."

Bogus.

>>8107785
>"Engineers" don't do any such research - they lack the qualifications

There are plenty of engineers that do research, and there's plenty of proprietary technology that is more advanced that what academia has touched.

You sound like someone in dead-end academic research who has never stepped foot in industry.

>>8103962
>the market should decide what everybody is worth me-me
>we don't have to consider what people actually do

Banks are non-productive entities, their only function in society is to keep track of the money supply by managing savings and handing out credit. It is basically a giant bureaucratic institution, be it a non-government one.
The amount of wealth that is drained from society by this bureaucracy is too high right now.

>>8103242
>How little they are paid should make it clear that they are really not that important at all.

>PhDs
>Not important
>At a university

Tell you what, see how long a university stays open when all it's PhD staff go on strike. Beautiful bait though, saved.

>>8107128
>>8107162
Science has become the new religion of the youth and scientists have become the celebrities. It doesn't matter how much of a failure you are, the STEM meme promises you'll have money and be well respected among your peers. (both lies)

In truth, the world doesn't need many theoretical physicists or pure mathematicians. There is a demand for a small number of elite positions who are able to push the field forward in a nontrivial way. As "universities" push out more and more of these grads who are unable to contribute in a meaningful way their value to society becomes limited despite their egos telling them that because they spent daddy's money studying real analysis they should be entitled to a high salary.

>>8103223
The world revolves around money and obviously both the government and private corporations don't consider scientists worth the investment, at least not in large numbers. They demand high pay and benefits for the few hours they work and don't consistently produce discoveries that will bring reliable profits. They are not worth the investment. It's a lot cheaper to hire one scientists and overwork the bastard until he quits than to get a whole team.

It's even more restrictive in academia where budgets are tighter. You will bust your ass and have nothing to show for it. It will never improve.

Sorry but you are not profitable. That's capitalism. Deal with it or move. You do not have to stay in America if you do not like it.

File: bladerunner.jpg (976KB, 3543x2324px) Image search: [Google]

976KB, 3543x2324px

>>8103223
This is crap.

Learn to program computer then earn $300K+ like a normal person.

WTF

>>8103223
Learn to Thales of Miletus.

Maybe they are _not_ that capable, maybe they regurgitate answers well. Some people know what to think and some know how to think.

>>8114300
The primary driver that has been killing off corporate R&D is that it is expensive and generally a long term investment while investors seek short term return. This is why R&D survives largely only in certain fields like biotech, where laws require that any product brought to market goes through long trial periods, or the financial sector, where any advantage can lead to a massive payoff. The other driving force is a decrease in government funding for basic research, leading to more and more basic science (and thus technological innovation) being driven to other countries. All of this has several bad implications for the long term health of the US economy, but it looks all rosy in the short term which is all that anyone cares about in the current incarnation of capitalism.

Because plumbers perform a useful service that's in demand. Academics do nothing.

File: guy.jpg (155KB, 1000x674px) Image search: [Google]

155KB, 1000x674px

>>8107177
Then why not go work as a plumber

>>8104063
Re-read the post you replied to and OP and reevaluate your own post, you retard

>>8107177
>If I'm working on some "inconsequential" project, getting paid shit, and a plumber screwing about with pipes is getting paid more, that is unfair.

According to which fairness standard? From elsewhere:

>Imagine that you agree with them that your salary should be $1. This is not unfair. Imagine that you agree with them that your salary should be $1,000,000,000. This is not unfair. The thing both salaries have in common that make them not unfair is this: You both agree. If you think a salary is unfair, do not agree to it. I promise that if they think a salary is unfair, they will not agree.

>>8103223
>ITT: OP doesn't understand supply and demand