Guys, I've come to the realization that free will and the

>>7954998
No, OP, you ARE mind control.

inb4 mickey and donald

>>7954998
You were that close to trips so basically, you're completely wrong by statistics.

- Consciousness controls the brain more to a bigger degree than hormones.
- Define what consciousness is and if I were to remove parts of your brain piece by piece, when would you no longer realize you exist but still go about your daily life.

>>7955026
>Consciousness controls the brain
wat

>>7954998
Your life experiences don't make you. Your decisions make you. If you think that everything is out of your control, why not make it in your control? Go rob a bank, go join a military, make drugs and sell them for the thrill.

>>7954998
Stop making these threads.

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>>7954998
>If there's no real "me" outside of the sum of all my life experience,
You are
>the sum of your life experiences
>your genetic predispositions
>the constantly self-modifying meta-algorithm that puts this all together in real-time

>>7954998
>everything I will ever think or do is totally outside of my control,
Everything you will ever think is only influenced by "you" (see lit above).
It's completely within our control.

>and just pursue pleasure while trying to avoid all forms of pain or discomfort.
Wasn't that what you were already doing BEFORE your existential crisis?

>>7955034
>implying I am capable of making decisions

>>7955032
What is the placebo effect.
What is power of positive thinking.

The sense of self has a greater effect on the body than chemical emotion.

>>7955050
Yes, I am all of those things. I just shortened it for simplicity's sake.

There is no "me" to influence things. I am just a very complicated biological computer that takes in inputs and processes them into outputs. This all happens without my conscious awareness of it, and is therefore beyond my control.

>Wasn't that what you were already doing BEFORE your existential crisis?
Well, some people opt to experience pain or discomfort instead of pleasure in the name of some higher goal, like lifting to become /fit/. I suppose you could argue that being /fit/ is just a form of pleasure, and that it outweighs the pain needed to achieve it.

>>7955053
>chemical emotion
wat

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Pic related is you.

You're going to go through the rest of your life confused about what it means and not enjoy anything in it.

You've figured out the meaning of life.
Congrats, now kill yourself.

>>7955072
I'm not under the illusion that thinking this way means I can "finally be productive," or something like that. It kind of has the opposite effect on me. The idea that I'm just acting out a script that has already been written for me fills me with terror, and I'm not sure how to handle it. I don't feel particularly special for having come to this realization, nor should I. Thinking that this makes me better than other people contradicts this whole idea: the thought didn't come from "me" in the first place.

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>>7954998
>Any thread that starts with "I've come to the realization.."

>>7955084
I have already figured this out years ago, and I came to really be fascinated by it. For me the only sense is learning and understanding the world, and since the last words of my ex before she killed herself were "use your chance", my second goal is to achieve something in life, get influence, change something. Also, read the Dao de jing, it will answer many of your questions. If you do it right and just stop caring about anything, a glorious life awaits you

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>>7954998
NOW THERE'S A PRETTY MEME

>>7954998
Yup, hedonism is the best way to go about it. The hard part is figuring out what truly gives you pleasure. At first you might think "WELL why not do drugs and bang hookers and be mean". Then you realise being selfish might not make you feel good.

Being concious that you arent important circles itself back. Were you ever important? What changed after you had these ideas?

Probably nothing, so you'll find that nothing was affected.

>>7955235

Haha, that was funny. You got any more of these?

>>7955857
I like you. It really grinds my gears when people conflate hedonism with hurr durr bungie jumping.

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>>7955060
>There is no "me" to influence things
You are the sum of the things in the list.
Aren't you paying attention?
There clearly is a "you".

>This all happens without my conscious awareness of it, and is therefore beyond my control.
Now you're defining "you" as your high-level intellectual functions only.
That's just wrong.

I'm 5'11". That's a part of who I am.
I can't change my height.
"ohh-nooes! I gots no free will!!!"

>>7955931
So if we cut off your feet you become a different person?

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>>7955937
>So if we cut off your feet you become a different person?
>implying change doesn't change things

I think nobody in this thread besides OP actually understood the problem

>>7956605
>I think nobody in this thread besides OP actually understood the problem
I think we all understand Opie is having an existential crisis.

>>7955904
No, hedonism boils down to killing yourself, viewed rationally.

>>7956648
Why are people trying to tell OP he is wrong then, if they didn't even get the problem?

OP here, can't believe this thread is still up.

>>7955050
>>7955931
>>7955954
You are totally missing the point.

>>7954998
This realization actually made my life kind of easier, I just stopped giving fucks and I pretty much have an excuse for everything with it.
The only thing which annoys me are all the people living in the illusion of free will, although they have no choice lol.

Since we're already on this topic again:
I still don't get why people use QM as an argument for free will, doesn't the QM indeterminism become irrelevant on the scale of neurons?
And even if it does matter, we have no control over it, or do we?

I mean the way I've come to reason with it is simply by asserting that there is no 'self' in these situations, not to sound over the top Buddhist or something but honestly, don't picture yourself as a machine being operated by a tiny man inside but instead as a self sustaining organic machine constantly evolving. While reality in my opinion and I think yours as well (if I'm gauging this correctly) is in the process of unfolding (following causality principals here), then yes, will in the grand scheme of things is an illusion, but the grand scheme of things is a perspective you can only assert while you separate yourself from yourself, why should you do that? You're human, understand your own epistemological limitations, you will never know the future, you are fallible, we all are, all you've worked out here is that the "data" required to understand the cadence of causation exists, but anything you draw /from this realization/ is strictly beyond the reach of your existential position, you can't /know everything/ you are incapable by nature of that, so stick to your nature and learn as much as you can; that's the only valid human experience, there are things you can't see from where you're sitting/standing why should your perspective of this "established future" be any more visible?

>>7955084
if it helps, the fact that you even realize this is part of that script

>>7957035
>I mean the way I've come to reason with it is simply by asserting that there is no 'self' in these situations
I've already reached that conclusion. I am not a thinker of thoughts, but rather a collection of the thoughts themselves. I am a machine, but there is no tiny man operating me.

>but the grand scheme of things is a perspective you can only assert while you separate yourself from yourself
It would appear that Buddhist monks and the like are able to do this 24/7, and I'm curious to see what that's like. Their way of seeing the world must be totally alien.

>why should you do that?
I feel like I'd be happier and less anxious all the time.

What I can gather from the rest of your post is that I should just try to live my life like a normal human, without dwelling on my lack of free will. For me, this is really fucking difficult, but it seems like most people (i.e. normies) never even consider stuff like this. When you suggest to them that free will doesn't exist, they can't seem to wrap their minds around what that really entails. I envy their ignorance sometimes.

>>7957638
Your dichotomous and forced analytic thinking is a problem.

You assume independent objects and entities.
You focus on parts instead of wholes.

Now that these illusions are being torn apart, you seek another answer.
But perhaps your answer will lead you back to illusions which will comfort you for some time before they too fall apart.

If you were to realize that wholes are more fundamental than parts, you might see things differently.
After all, the big bang - a largely indistinguishable whole that contained everything - preceded the universe as we know it today.

Connections are more important than parts.

You were born out of the physical connectedness of your parents.
This language that we communicate with is taught to us by others and without a language community it would not exist.
A sense of self that you and I have is not seen in feral children raised apart from human contact.

Your mode of thinking has misguided you about the nature of free will.
You see, free will isn't real.
Only the feeling of being free and acting freely is real.
You know the feeling. It doesn't need to be explained.

So if we have no free will but just a feeling of freedom where will hedonism take us?
Well, if you're like most people, it will slowly erode your feeling of freedom shackling you to itself eventually.

Brain scans of buddhist monks reveal very high levels of happiness.
But they're not skydiving or partying or living in fancy houses.
Instead, they are connected.
To themselves, to each other, to us, and to the world.

Your 'self' is not something independent. It never was. It is to be found in your connection with the people and things of this world.

I suppose you'll propose the inevitable, "But why should I do as you suggest or anything at all?" so I may as well answer it now.
Because when you were born your mother looked you in the eyes and saw you, connected with you, and loved you.
Through that connection came unconditional care and love.
It's your turn now.

>>7954998
Just taking some time to point out that ANYTHING, even spiritual in nature, can be considered as determined on retrospect.
>Guys, I've come to the realization that free will and the idea of a self are both memes.
No, you did not. Determinism can neither be proven nor unproven.

If that possibility still scares you though, flip a coin anytime you run into a decision, that will, at the expense of every bit of dignity and courage you might once have had, guarantee your life keeps a random factor to its development. So next time a trucker approaches you in a sleazy bar offering you a sweaty bout of sodomy, flip a coin. You might enjoy it, who knows.

If you are willing to become the ultimate asshole, i recommend you read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism
I am warning you, though: You might pass out from a tinfoil overdose.

>>7957705
>flip a coin

How is that coin flip not deterministic?
You could also just act on your own will then, even if it wasn't free.

>>7957736
Just do a double-split experiment instead

>>7957736
>How is that coin flip not deterministic?
On the sense that a coinflip is (not really, but for all practical reasons) random, and i mean that on the sense that it is not influenced by your hormones, neurones, etc., ergo not influenced by your will, but by physics.

That means that, on the traditional sense of determinism, that coinflip is for all effects random since it receives no significant feedback from your will.

If you are considering determinism not as the effect of your physical and psychological self, but as the input of a higher being (e.g God), then yes indeed, there is absolutely no way of governing your actions on any manner whatsoever.
Take note, however, that accepting the existence of God, yet believing his sole reason of existence is to fuck your shit up is pretty damn paranoic.

why does this always come up here?
kjdsfksafhkj determinism..... sdjfkasfkj free will ksajdksdjfajfasfdkjjkjkjkdjfaksdjfkj quantum mechanics. Oh my god
I have thoughts on it, but here's some better questions.

Why, in my own life, have I felt at times that millions of options are at my fingertips, to the point where I feel creative energy radiating through me and I myself am surprised at what I do next, while at other times, I seem to follow the same old tired chains of thought and action and I damn well know what I will do next and I don't like it?
Describing the your actions as either "free" or "determined" is like trying to draw a peacock on a bumpy rock with another bumpy rock.

Which bumpy rock will be the better one to scratch with? and which to scratch on?

Yes friends "you", "will" , "free" ... all can be broken down and we can do it some time if folks want to come by and bring psychedelic drugs, but for the time being, I will plan on making choices that make my options more and my actions FREER, and mostly resisting the knee jerk pseudo animal response.

Is this choice itself, "my own" or "free"?
I don't care and whats more I don't think you care either.

>>7957682
>Your dichotomous and forced analytic thinking is a problem
Since when is analytical thinking a problem?

>You assume independent objects and entities
I never made such an assumption. Every particle in the universe is connected to every other particle in the universe. Nothing is independent.

>wholes are more fundamental than parts
What does this even mean? What does it have to do with free will?

>Connections are more important than parts
What "parts" are you referring to?

>Your mode of thinking has misguided you about the nature of free will
>You see, free will isn't real
>Only the feeling of being free and acting freely is real
Uh, that's what I said in my OP.

>So if we have no free will but just a feeling of freedom where will hedonism take us?
I don't think you understood what I meant by "hedonism."

>But they're not skydiving or partying or living in fancy houses
Case in point.

Your entire post reeks of pretentiousness.

>>7957705
>flip a coin
>random
It's not random; the coin must obey the laws of physics just like any other object, and flipping it is therefore deterministic. Even if it were random, the outcome is still outside of my control, which means I still have no say in the matter.

>i recommend you read this
I know about Solipsism. I've already had that crisis. You can't prove or disprove it, so I don't really give it much thought anymore.

Not just OP, but all of you should read absurdist theater. I'd highly suggest Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead. It's an alternate look into Hamlet, and hides some serious thought on self and purpose behind great comedy.

>>7954998
Your goal is to survive long enough to pass on your genes and assist in the survival of your species, not be a selfish faggot

>>7957772
>If you are considering determinism not as the effect of your physical and psychological self, but as the input of a higher being (e.g God), then yes indeed, there is absolutely no way of governing your actions on any manner whatsoever
My idea of determinism is as follows:

>the universe can be broken down to the collisions of fundamental particles
>every particle has a set path that it will follow based on its previous collisions, according to the laws of physics

How this applies to free will:
>our neurons are made of fundamental particles, and are therefore subject to the same laws (which are outside of our control)
>this network of neurons processes information in a specific way, without our awareness of it
>given the same inputs and initial circumstances, our brains will always arrive at the exact same outcome
>our brains arrive at this outcome before we are consciously aware of it, but we feel like the decision came from within our "self"

>>7957841
>survive long enough to pass on your genes and assist in the survival of your species
To what end?

>>7957845
Raising a family and helping offspring raise their family, being a productive member of society and good neighbor

>>7954998
Yup, everything you do and will do is predetermined, but it isn't incompatible with free will. You just have to somehow choose to believe in it. It doesn't change much but it'll make u a lot happier and give u a sense of purpose. It doesn't matter either way tho, in the large scale of things. Hell, whether u end up enjoying life or not is predetermined already too. So just try to be the best "you" u can be.

>>7957854
You just repeated what you said before. Think of the bigger picture: What goal is humanity ultimately working towards? Why are we reproducing in the first place?

>inb4 biological programming

>>7957855
>Yup, everything you do and will do is predetermined, but it isn't incompatible with free will
How can I be free to choose if it's already been determined? That makes no sense.

>>7957859
Why do you think you think humanity NEEDS a collective goal? Why can't people just do whatever the hell they want to because they can?

>>7957833
>It's not random; the coin must obey the laws of physics just like any other object, and flipping it is therefore deterministic.
The coin is subject to the laws of physics, but the variables that determine it's position are absolute (the variables here being the ones behind the act of throwing) , meaning that the act of flipping a coin, not the laws of physics that govern it, are determinant of it's result. On the very worst of cases, that might not mean you are free, but that your decision was determined solely by yourself.

>Even if it were random, the outcome is still outside of my control, which means I still have no say in the matter.
Geez, were you not the one saying you did not want to be subjected by your organic components? There you go: A decision that actually is completely devoid of organic feedback.

Also, i mentioned a coinflip on a theoretical sense, since that is usually the main paramater of randomness we use on a daily base. If you want something more random, check this out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment
Of course, as i said before ANYTHING can be considered determinist on retrospect.

>I know about Solipsism. I've already had that crisis. You can't prove or disprove it, so I don't really give it much thought anymore.
>You can't prove or disprove it, so I don't really give it much thought anymore.

Determinism also cannot be proven or disproven. Consider the following statement:
It is possible that you, out of your own free will, decided to believe on determinism.
The above is possible. Since the likelihood of something being certain cannot be above 100%, then that means determinism cannot be proven.

>>7957861
So, it goes back to hedonism, then. We're just here to experience life and enjoy it the best we can. I'm cool with that, I guess.

>>7957873
>the variables that determine it's position are absolute
What the fuck are you even saying, dude?

>the act of flipping a coin, not the laws of physics that govern it, are determinant of it's result
Semantics. The laws of physics also govern the act of throwing it--these aren't separate events. The laws of physics govern fucking everything; that's what I'm trying to say.

>were you not the one saying you did not want to be subjected by your organic components?
Where are you getting this? Whether I'm a slave to my own brain chemistry or to external randomness, I still don't have free will. I don't see how this is so difficult to grasp.

>>7957878
>What the fuck are you even saying, dude?
This:
>the act of flipping a coin, not the laws of physics that govern it, are determinant of it's result
In other words, by "the variables are absolute", i meant that the variables on the act of coin flipping determine it's result.
Like so:
You threw a coin
Possibility A: You threw it weakly: It landed heads.
Possibility B: You threw it strongly: It landed tails.

Let's compare it with a system where the variables are not "absolute"
You attempted to move a monolith
Possibility A: You Kicked it. It did not move.
Possibility B: You punched it: It did not move.
On the above system, the result is the same regardless of your actions. On that case, the variables (your attitude towards it) are not "absolute", or, and i really hate using that term, determinant.
>Where are you getting this? Whether I'm a slave to my own brain chemistry or to external randomness, I still don't have free will. I don't see how this is so difficult to grasp.
There is the point: You can be a slave of "brain chemistry" or a slave of "external randomness", but you cannot be a slave of both exclusively. You are either A or B. That is up solely to your decision.
You may argue that such a decision is not proof of free will, but that nonetheless is proof of autodeterminism.
What, did yout think you could escape from your own control? That is as naïve as it is vain. Without yourself, you are nothing.

>>7957891
I... I don't even know where to begin with this post. I'm not even gonna bother quoting everything.

It's clear to me now that we're having two entirely different conversations here.

>>7957902
>tl;dr

Going to put it as bluntly as possible, then:

Determinist is another word for coward.

>>7957910
>>tl;dr
No, I read the whole thing. It just didn't make any sense whatsoever.

>seeking to understand the nature of reality makes you a coward
nice b8

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>>7957860
Look up "I am a Strange Loop" by Douglas Holfstader. Basically it's about what "level" you are thinking in. From a mechanical perspective our actions are predetermined, but humans are conscious, value making beings, so it becomes a chicken or egg paradox. Think about the optical illusion of the old woman and the young lady. Depending on how you look at it it either becomes on or the other. We can assign such "aesthetic" values to it, but in the realm of physics its just a blob picture of nothing. So human consciousness is a product of obersvations, chemical impulses and abstract organization, but it creates something I hesitate to say is "larger than the sum of its parts."

I'm not too good at explaining but it's a fascinating approach to the determinism/free will argument.

>>7957859
You are a bunch of organs made up of a bunch of cells made up of a bunch of elements that figured out how to self replicate. You nor any other organism have direct control of these chemical bonds, they just came to be and have enough awareness to survive. Do you think they are aware of some bigger picture, or care? Nope. Stop being so self centered thinking there has to be a bigger purpose, even if there is one you won't find out and your human brain won't have the capability to understand. All you need to know is what was posted.

>>7954998
Search out hedonism and immortality.
The second will require some work.

>>7954998
Just keep living.