Does anyone here have completely scientifically illiterate parents?

Common ground is a good way to go. I mean she's not entirely wrong, the homeopathic side to medication is quite important. Support, love and attention are important matters in recovery, as is anything else that makes the patient feel "good" and be more motivated to getting better.

However, the body isn't infallible in it's recovery. That's the point that you have to explain to them, and note that a combination of the two treatment types is the best option.

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This isn't your personal blog site,no one wants to hear about the fedora tier arguments with your parents.

My advice would be to get off of your high horse. If there is one thing that science can prove, it's that humans are extremely gullible. They are humans the same as you. All the only difference between medicine and homeopathy is that one holds off death longer. Either way it will fail you in the end.

>>7954248
thanks doge

>>7954241
Change the subject to pallative care and natural products chemistry

OP, when you meet someone in life with opposing views it's always a useful exercise to consider things from their viewpoint. So for example you have two mature adults, I'm guessing in their 40's or 50's, who have seen a little of life and know a few things. From their perspective they have a kid who is maybe 19 or 20 and really knows nothing about how the world works, beyond his science training.

They may have been using homeopathy since they were children. They may have felt an effect from it. They may have used it on their children, their animals, and seen effects which, because of the age or species of the patient, can't be written off as the placebo effect.

They may have spiritual or religious experiences which says to them that there is something more to life than the material world. Homeopathy may fit into this world view. You can't just tell someone they are wrong, because a certain approach to science, as described by certain scientists, says things are a certain way.

In order to honor your parents' life experience you could try on a little humility. For starters, you could stop arguing with them. Don't assume you know more than they do. Don't assume the world is a certain way because you hear some scientists saying it is. The most valuable interaction you can have with your parents is the one in which you listen to them, and find out who they are as people. When they are gone and it's too late, you will wish more than anything that you had had a chance to do more of this. And when they see you getting off your high horse of opinion and listening to them, they will recognize that you are growing up, and becoming a person in your own right. That is the person they want to see, the person they raised you to be. And then they might listen to you, or not.

>>7954247
>the homeopathic side to medication
What do you mean, the placebo effect?
>>7954249
I'm worrying about the effects it might have on my 9 year old brother. He apparently needs braces, and today I found a brochure lying around, advertising for some kind of alternative braces without pressure, which seemed pretty shady. I'm not at my parents' very often and can't supervise that kind of thing, and I'm worried they'll fuck up his teeth or something
>>7954248
thanks doge

>>7954241
Try being tolerant. All the best scientists are humble beyond belief. Only arrogant third year uni students actually think science is omniscient.

As for the science, modern medicine is founded in trauma response, ie. pulling bullets out and slicing internal organs to make them less clogged/polluted. To say that there are zero chemical constituents in the natural world that can have the same detoxifying/pollution breakdown/absorbing effect as a physical scalpel is an ignorance to the entire field of biology. I'm afraid you've fallen for the punch bowl ruse and your understanding of science is pedantic at best. You haven't fallen very far from the tree (you being the apple in this case) if you come to /sci/ asking for your intolerance to be defended.

>>7954294
Homeopathy in particular is bullshit though, if you actually read on what it is.

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>>7954273
Pretty solid advice anon.

>>7954278
>some kind of alternative braces without pressure
If that is what I think it is, they aren't without pressure. It's just directed differently, to re-shape the jaw as well as move the teeth. Traditional orthodontics moves the teeth, and often requires extractions to make room. Moving the teeth can leave in place the pressures which wanted to put the teeth in their original position, and the teeth may revert. Ongoing retainers may be needed to prevent this. Extractions often target the canines and if the lower ones are removed it can leave a receded chin posture which gives a very unappealing profile.

The newer form of orthodontics is usually referred to as dental orthopaedics and is carried out by qualified dentists and orthodontists. Traditional orthodontists rail against it because as in most fields, they don't like change. But there's nothing shady about it.

>>7954273
Thank you, that brought a bit of perspective to me I guess
>>7954294
I don't understand. What do you mean by the "punch bowl ruse"? I'm not a native speaker, and google brought up nothing.

>>7954334

That guy at Jones town or whatever put poison in the punch and killed all his followers.

>>7954330
ok thank you, I will read further on this
>>7954339
thanks, didn't get the reference.

>>7954303
I doubt his parents are actually defending any real understanding of homeopathy. Their actual beliefs likely have nothing to do with homeopathy. It's just that they live in an active placebo so they feel like they have to defend their placebo or it won't exist.

>>7954347
It's not an idiom yet. Basically it means following the cult rather than actually thinking it through.

...Now it's an idiom.

Everyone here seems to be preaching tolerance and love. Would you think the same way if OP were arguing with a friend, not a parent?

OP here, forgot to mention that with my previous replies
>>7954357
At least my mother is actually believing the whole "activation of the water molecules" thing. My father is more of the type "if it makes her happy", but will also not see the (in my mind) clear differentiation between homeopathic methods and the evidently real placebo effect
>>7954368
That's an interesting question. With normal friends, I have much more straight forward, and sometimes heated, discussions; I also don't have the feeling I'll destroy their entire world view if I'm talking a bit harsher. With my parents, not so much. Let's say they're in their 50s, and at that age I suppose you have gone along with a certain set of values and beliefs for a longer time, and it would be more severe for your psyche to give that up.

>>7954405
>but will also not see the (in my mind) clear differentiation between homeopathic methods and the evidently real placebo effect
Nobody does until you actually say it. We don't take it on faith that your understanding is accurate.

You didn't come here to have your mind hugged by telepaths unwilling to debate your ignorance. This is /sci/, not /x/.

>>7954278
Braces are expensive as hell you privileged sperglord. I don't blame your parents for at least considering other options, hell thats the intelligent thing to do.

They're probably worried they'll waste all their money raising another ungrateful cunt like you.

Maybe they're stupid, maybe not, but they raised your ass and are putting you through college, so maybe you need to learn how to shut the fuck up nod your head and feign interest when they talk to you, instead of arguing like a little bitch.

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>>7954241
> from the scientific side, it has no basis
> scientific argument
If it has no scientific basis, furthermore, if science cannot explain a certain effect, one can not conclude any scientific statement or scientific evaluation from it.
You cannot prove nor disprove homeopathy.

Stop feeling special and start accepting and respecting your fellow human beings on a higher level than just their opinions or their intelligence.
The reason you get frustrated are your wrong claims about a discussion with "those" people.
Look at it more as an exchange of information and opinions, not as a goal to force your believes on them.

> I really don't want to completely end any discussion of this kind
I assume that's mostly the need to boost your ego. Start growing up, stop feeling superior and stop bothering them with your lack of identitiy.
If I am wrong and it's the contact with your family that you would miss, you already missed a big part in your parental relationship, if your conversations with your family are all of that kind.

>>7954278
If you start accepting them, they will rather listen to you.

>>7954294
>science is omniscient
No, literally nobody believes this and literally nobody has ever put it forward as an argument. Science is a method. It's something you do.
>To say that there are zero chemical constituents in the natural world that can have the same detoxifying/pollution breakdown/absorbing effect as a physical scalpel is an ignorance to the entire field of biology.
The whole of modern medicine emerged out of "traditional herbal remedies." Willow bark as a pain reliever gave way to its active constituent salicylate, which gave way to the acetyl ester (asprin) which causes substantially less gastric bleeding/ulcers.

Those both seem like deliberate misrepresentation of your opponents' views.

>understanding the weight of evidence and making decisions based on it is intolerance
>rejecting what has been extensively studied and not supported by a shred of credible evidence is arrogant because u cant no nuffin
Were you dropped on your head as a child? Are you posting while high again?

>>7954625
>understanding the weight of evidence and making decisions based on it is intolerance
Correct; it is intolerant of ignorance. I'm not saying OP should tolerate ignorance, I'm saying that's the solution to his localized interacting-with-parents problem. In other contexts, such as here on /sci/, being intolerant of ignorance is entirely valid. But it won't help to be intolerant of his parent's ignorance.

>>7954594
>You cannot prove nor disprove homeopathy.
:^)

>>7954278
>I'm worrying about the effects it might have on my 9 year old brother.
show them a picture of what fake braces do to teeth. they might reconsider...

>>7954241
science is a fallible method, not a religion

>>7955248
WTF are fake braces? I googled it and found that it's a 'thing' for some kids to wear actually fake, i.e. imitation, braces that don't do anything, as a fashion. This is not what anon was asking about, retard.

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Tell your delightful yet deluded parents that 48% of mothers do NOT love their children. Pop their bubble. It is often the father that holds the family together, by force.

>>7954241
my parents are pretty smart, my mom is usually like
>if smart science guy says so then i guess it's true, what do i know i didn't study for it
and my dad has been studying in a stem field, so he knows about picking out junk "science" from actual science. my grandpa has some trouble with conspiracy theories, this one time he told my about an engine that was invented in the 1930s that would run on hydrogen extracted from water by "dialysis", he probably meant electrolysis so i explained how that would form a perpetuüm mobile which is impossible, so he believed me. he is also afraid of GMO, but i tempered his fears a bit. this one time he told me about every natural thing being healthy, so i asked him cynically if he thought snake venom (i couldn't come up with a beter example) was healthy, to which he replied that doctors use it as well, which is true. he also has a poster with an hour glass shaped scheme of which the top triangle shows which food is to be eaten less and the triangle under it shows what to replace it with, i thought most of it was not that bad, but when i saw medicines in the top halve i decided that it was shit as well. TL;DR: mom and dad are no problem, but i'm busy redpilling gramps

>>7954273
But they're wrong

You cannot start saying it's a placebo or that it doesn't work because everyone has a case or two that worked on par or better than traditional medicine. Rather, try infusing some perspective into it.

First of all, if you are a physics student who just says homeopathy is bs don't share your opinion till you had a proper read on the subject (you don't have yo go that far to understand that it's BS but at least gather data and arguments). Second, try to explain exactly what makes modern medicine so dismissive about these claims always reminding them that scientists don't or shouldn't think of themselves as al mighty beings but people with extreme curiosity about nature. This means that if someone found out that homeopathy works, they would be fucking jumping around because it means a paradigm shift is coming, but all trials that have been done show that it does penuts and the number of successes are not even comparable to the success modern medicine has had. Try teaching about what science actually is about and the power it has considering its simplicity in many cases.

If they throw you the spiritual argument then tell them it shouldn't then claim it can cure certain things that medicine have shown to be physicall because if they are physical, then you shouls observe it in a climical trial which you don't.

Also, don't be a cunt about it. If they are clearly baiting you so theh can then answer with their "science is not all powerful" then just don't consider debating it. Yes alternative medicine is a fucking scam that shits over spiritual and scientific principles, but except they are trying to cure your sister that has leukemia with vaginal frog juices from the Mexican frog of sri Lanka, it is just naive spending.

>>7956526
Heh. Anon bares their subconscious without any trace of irony, or noticing it. You need therapy, anon.

>>7956635
Doesn't matter. Read my post again, it's not about being right or wrong. It's about the value of communication, which doesn't happen if someone is being 'Right'.

>>7954249

eat a dick you fucking faggot

You can measure the love of a mother for their child. How abused or spoiled

>>7956715
No, it's about op's frustration in his parents being wrong and thinking they're right about homeopathic medicine. I dont give a fuck what hippy dippy land his parents grew up in that made them believe that taking sugar pills is better than real treatment, but people die under treatment of homeopathic medicine who could have been treated with real medicine proven to work

>>7956801
>No, it's about op's frustration in his parents being wrong and thinking they're right
That is exactly what I said. And *it doesn't matter*. Try it again. It Doesn't Matter. If you want to have a communication with someone, piling in with "I'm right, you're wrong", is a sure way for your communication to not be received.

>>7956731
I like dicks

OP here.
Sry, I only now got along to read all the comments, I was busy today.
>>7956715
I've thought about your arguments a bit, and considering>>7954368 's point I have to say: Wouldn't me deciding to not discuss those topics with my parents devalue our relationship a bit? In the sense that I then don't deem them able to think analytically about those topics, and just being okay with that. In my intuition, that's kind of disrespectful to them. But maybe I just have to accept that the discussions lead nowhere

>>7954241
>Anyone else want to share experiences/tips for this kind of thing?
Move out of your parents' house and you're under no obligation to talk to them.

My uncle is pretty ridiculous. He's a lawyer and a damn smart one but he is just way too much of a religious nut.

My cousins were once talking about some guy they were friends with. Very intelligent guy, awesome grades, got a free ride through med school.

Then my uncle chimes in, "Well he can't be that smart; he's an atheist!"

My moms lawyer boss argued with me about spiritulism. Astrology, alien spirits, psychics, etc. He spends $200 a month on psychics over the phone. It was fascinating how someone so smart can believe in such garbage.

>>7956912
Good point, but it's not disrespectful if it's true. One effect of not taking "I'm right, you're wrong" into conversation is that it frees up the other person to show you who they are and what they really think and feel, rather than just being stuck in a polarised role. If you give up your notions of what your parents are capable of they might surprise you; or they might not, they might indeed be exactly as you think they are. But give them a chance, and yourself a chance to allow some possibility in the conversation.

>>7954241
No I live in the first world

>>7956650
You're ignoring the fact that those who believe in stupid bullshit like homeopathy are motivated not by a desire to understand reality but by a desire to verbally masturbate and cling on to the delusion that they've outwitted all of science.

>>7954241
> using umpteenth

suicide is an option OP

>>7957006
My stepmother is a lawyer and is very intelligent, but her colleagues are idiots. Lawyer does not mean smart.

>>7954241
Be grateful you're not dead yet because what may have happened is that you catch something nasty and then they try to love your lung infection away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiwaGnj8kPU

There's no middle ground here. You believe in astrology, homeopathy (don't fool yourself with homeopathy as "home/natural medecine", not the same), magneto-thingy therapy i forgot, anything of these sorts .. you're a fucking idiot.
That's all. You can't argue back because you have nothing to prove your claims.
It's quack and you're an idiot. Sadly.

>Homeopathy
>The more aweful the symptoms are
>The more diluted the solution is
>And the more powerful it gets (kek)
>Because what's diluted inside is really, really dangerous shit
>So they better fucking be certain to sell you something that doesn't even have an atom of said product in the entire box

Fucking homeopathy.

>>7956912
>In the sense that I then don't deem them able to think analytically about those topics

It's not that you can't or shouldn't discuss these topics with them, but as the other anon is saying, you're trying to 'win' the discussion, and they know it, so if you're not listening why should they? Try to understand where they're coming from to believe what they do. The force of a belief doesn't lie only in the belief itself, but the impact it has in their life-long habits, the personal attachment to such ideas and the comfort they bring, specially later in life or during harsh times.

Don't go into the discussion trying to win and wanting to change their beliefs, but maybe just switch the focus and try to highlight the importance of having a more critic attitude, since you're saying avoiding things like >>7954278 it's what concerns you.

>>7954241
why do you want to impose your point of view on your parents ?

>>7957724
>The force of a belief doesn't lie only in the belief itself, but the impact it has in their life-long habits, the personal attachment to such ideas and the comfort they bring, specially later in life or during harsh times.
this is so true. People love to cling to science, even though they never attend a course on science nor on its history and philosophy.
They put the word scientific and scientific method on their belief and hope that they will be praised, because scientists are glorified today, even though they fail to tell us what scientists are good at, besides for technology.

>>7957903
> Today I was dragged into a homeopathy discussion with them for the umpteenth time
>I can't fucking read