Is Medicine fuckin STEM master race now? It seems nobody wants

>>7713784
Medicine isn't a STEM field moron. Learn what STEM actually means.

The 'M' is for medicine, of couse.

>>7713786
Isn't medicine a part of science? Then what is it? Art?

>>7713797
It's a professional field that uses science and art. It's older than both science and art fields. Not everything needs to be categorized into those two to make the world even simpler for idiot

>>7713805
Not that anon, but i would believe that it would more accurately be a combination of science and tech.

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Medicine isn't exactly STEM, but it isn't exactly not STEM. It's a bit like Geology. Just close enough to the border to be lumped in with it.

Oh? What? Geology is a science? So is medicine.

>>7713829
If you fail to graduate medicine, you have a problem. The MCAT, if you can get through it, sort of implies you're capable of handling it.

Medicine is a trade that uses science heavily.

>>7713814
You would believe wrong. It's not a "combination" of those at all, thought I don't think you understand fully what the word combination implies.

>>7713828
STEM is a legally defined term. Your feelings are irrelevant and trying to associated STEM with prestige is retarded. Medicine is more prestigious than STEM fields.

>>7713831
The thing is, Medicine is such a generalist term. Many MD graduates are basically research scientists, and certainly fall under STEM.

Okay, so GP's are a 'trade'.

Surgeons are in-between.

>>7713836
Surgeons are the most trade-like. You apprentice for 7 years learning surgery on the job. It's a glorified fucking trade.
I wouldn't say medical research is the same as 'medicine'. When someone tells me they work in medicine, I think of doctors not people doing biomedical research or people making drugs at Merck. Biomedical research is science like any other science field.

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>>7713833
>Medicine is more prestigious
top kek

>>7713880
Have you talked to anyone in real life lately?

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>>7713833

>>7713836
No, they aren't. They're physicians trained in diagnosing and treating disease. Many haven't done research since they were undergraduates. A tiny, tiny minority (<1%) are MD/PhDs and hold both an MD and a research degree in something biology-related.

>>7713895
Diagnostics/internal medicine is a small part of the MD curriculum.

Any lab would LOVE to have an MD and you'd advance faster with an MD than a PhD in biochemistry if you were a researcher in something like pharma or whatever.

MDs can work in science, but not vice versa.

>>7713837
I agree with this. Surgeons are like the mechanics/electricians/plumbers of the body

>>7713901
And yet they know more about physiology than any biomed PhD.

>ITT: butthurt biomedical PhDs who's bitter that their mothers' have to constantly tell people that their children aren't REAL doctors.

I know it sucks being a disappointment and all, but venting on /sci/ just makes your situation worse.

>>7713833
>I study medicine just so that people will respect me.

>>7713784
Medicine is fucking god-tier because it actually helps people, I admire people who become doctors


t. engineer

>>7714000
Shots fired at buttfurt Ph.Ds

>>>/b/656812875
Help us save her
17

>>7713881
I don't think anybody on /sci/ ever has

Medicine is an application of various science fields. To the guy who said it includes art, I don't even want to know what's going on inside your head. Look at Geography. Geography is an application of various science fields AND includes social studies, economics etc. But medicine, no. Modern doctors aren't economists, no matter how often you repeat it. They are highly specialized people.

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>>7713828
>geology
>not a science

>>7713784

I'm an MD/PhD. You can ask me anything if you want.

I'll tell you the truth. I'm tall and blue-eyed but I can't have sex because I'm too busy. Also it's really depressing to work with gravely sick people so frequently, at the hospital everybody's pissed off, research is constantly an ethical dilemma, the nursing staff and the patient's family are a pain in the ass.

So yeah I'm rich but it's friday night and I'm drinking alone. Today in the morning there was a meeting of the residents where they complained about not rotating to the right specialisation departments and the man in charge of organising those rotations told them that they are not as important as the patients or the older doctors, that they should "bite the sour apple" (we're not english-speaking).

I have been considering quitting for a long time but I have no idea what else to do. My impression is that a special kind of hate-love is what most doctors at my university hospital feel towards their life choice.

>>7713784

>mfw majored in arts, took a few science pre reqs and going to med school
>mfw have no face

>>7713784
Also I would say that while medicine is definitely neither STEM nor "hard science" it uses heavily useful things from all disciplines, including those that some people here would probably consider "not science". That's one of the good bits, you have a lot of scientific breadth and you can go as deep as you want.

>>7714279
Do you drink alone often?

>>7714284
I did a short postdoc this year and there I started drinking every day. It's one or two gin tonic in the evening. In the weekend it's more. I'm still functioning adequately. For my body size it's not so much. I'm still functioning adequately, I think. But it's kind of a replacement for out-of-work social interaction. I've never been very gregarious.

Also I smoke cigarettes, so I still get that whole emo kind of 21st century schizoid man vibe. Whatever floats your boat.

>>7714279

How do I get into med school? I already volunteer but I'm not really good at math and haven't taken many sciences although I've taken first year bio. I'm a psych major going into second year and my GPA is 3.3. I want to become a psychiatrist because treating mental disorders, especially one's like schizophrenia where people hallucinate and hear voices/see things interests me a lot. I'm good at memorizing high volumes of information but my main is worry is that my grades are not good enough. I didn't really try much in my first year and med school was the last thing on my mind, I only decided I'd like to try for it recently but I don't even know if it's worth attempting it.

>>7714295

I'm sorry but I'm from central europe and in my country there is one standardised test. If you score high enough you get admitted, otherwise not. I feel sorry for the US youth that has to sacrifice their childhood and adolescence to get into a career that will suck their life out of them.

>>7714302

Canada here but pretty much the same thing. It's pretty shit. I hate my life and would rather dedicate it to a higher purpose so medicine fits me well. If I can't get into med school here contemplating just going to a different country and then blowing my brains out when I turn 60

>>7714000
Just about a week ago there was a med student responding to a guy who thinks like you and he said that all the other med students he knew, including him, were completely uninterested in people. Were in there just for the money. I cannot phrase it the way he did but he seemed to be surpried at how little doctors care about human beings.

Not saying doctors are bad but saying X is good because it actually helps people is a shit opinion. For all we know, there may be gender studies graduates who 'help' people. Everyone helps people because there is money involved.

>>7714293
I've been drinking for the exact same reasons, Anon. 37.5 cl of wine per day to be exact. Work's not truly over if I haven't had my drink.

Are you going to keep doing it or are you planning on quitting or toning it down? How old are you if I may ask? I'm from Western Europe by the way.

>>7714344

If there were no advertising or search machine optimising people fewer humans would suffer and/or die in excess than if there were no doctors. So in a way it's true that doctors are more useful to society than many other professions. I think that's obvious.

As for the caring part: As long as you do a good job it's irrelevant what you feel. Some people argue that doctors should not feel too much empathy because that could hinder their ability to decide rationally.

>>7714346

Well I've had the vision of a better life without vices, doing the right thing at the right time and doing it naturally, for a long time. The way I see it you get raised by your environment. I've always passed all the tests/exams/challenges of life at least to satisfactory degree. So I'm confident that I will react adequately when it will be apparent that this is a problem. But as of now I think I'm OK.

You shouldn't worry either. 37.5cl of wine doesn't seem like too much. Maybe if you're underweight and female.

I was at a conference last year where there was one presentation about how to treat substance abuse, and the presenter but a lot of emphasis on the fact that substance abuse is often a replacement for social interaction/integration, and that there is strong evidence for social ties being essential for cessation.

>>7714352
Also if somebody is a great doctor only for the money and it works for him, what is there to complain about? A great doctor can have a large positive effect on the well-being of many people over the years, not only on the patients.

>>7713784
Because erry1 wants to work in a high paying field obviously

>>7714362
>Also if somebody is a great doctor only for the mone

Daily reminder that back in the 60s actual doctors with actual degrees from actual medical schools would publicly say that smoking was beneficial to your health just because big companies were paying them huge money.

>inb4 back in the 60s we didn't have enough research about it so it is not their fault

Just coming close to someone smoking will make you cough like shit, specially if you cause asthma. You don't need a decade long symptom research to know that it probably isn't good.

This is what happens when your 'great doctor' cares first about profit and second about their patients.

>>7714359
I hope that you will indeed react adequately because alcoholism has destroyed many,many lives of people who were as smart or smarter than you. And while intelligence and knowledge about alcoholism might help you not fall into the trap, it's not a guarantee. Nor are previous challenges you overcame. It sneaks up on you. Like most addictions. I've seen it happen many times with other addictions.

I recently saw a documentary about the prevalence of alcoholism and other substance abuse in the medical profession. I had no idea it was that bad.

It's not that much now but tolerance may change that and that's what I'm worried about.

> I was at a conference last year where there was one presentation about how to treat substance abuse, and the presenter but a lot of emphasis on the fact that substance abuse is often a replacement for social interaction/integration, and that there is strong evidence for social ties being essential for cessation.

This is one of the reasons I started drinking on a daily basis. Work is the other reason so the observations within that presentation are, at least partly in my case, very true.

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People who diss surgeons in this thread are just clueless morons.

Those niggers research and publish more shit than any of you niggers here.
Source: Me. My best friend, MD (almost PhD), is starting ortho next year and my other course mate is almost a gastroenterologic surgeon and currently MD/PhD. This guy I know who is only 24 years old has 20+ published articles, mostly in the AANS Journal of Neurosurgery, and is starting his specialisation atm. People who read JNS know who he is. These guys are fucking superhuman and I'm still a lowly MD.

>>7714386

No. Nobody talked about being corrupt or overly greedy. The reality is that doctors, on average, care about other people about the same as the general population. Being a doctor earns you a good salary in most countries. If that's your incentive, and you do your job well, nobody has any reason to complain.

Undue influence on opinion leaders by industry is a different topic.

>>7714390
>research and publish more shit than any of you

>If you remove the head, the patient will die
>this kills the patient
>Cause of death: removal of the patients head, which resulted in a catastrophic failure to live
>In conclusion, ensuring that the patient's remains attached to the body during the course of surgery greatly improves chances for patient's survival

>>7714390

I'm not saying that's not impressive, but playing the publication game well is not always the same as contributing something valuable. Also if he has 20 publications at 24 it is unlikely that these are 20 first authorships and it is much more likely that he and his pals did a lot of cross-gift authorship. Lastly, the neurosurgeons at my clinic mostly have a weak personality and are blinded by the supposed glamour of this uber-specialty, when in reality it is very frustrating and also one of the specialties that takes a relatively high toll on your out-of-work life time.

But it does sound nice, and the idea is nice, and it's a pantydropper maybe even as much as being a heart surgeon (which is also shit btw and to which a lot of the same downsides apply).

>>7714387

You seem to worry an awful lot for drinking about a quarter of wine a day.

We're all gonna make it.

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>>7714417
Top fucking kek Anon.

>>7714431
It's a dangerous path and I've seen many lives ruined by it so I'm very cautious with it. Also, I'm a very anxious person (notice how I didn't say that I have a disorder).

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>>7714417
Jealousy is strong in this one.

>>7714423
>He can't be that good. It must be handed on a silver plate somehow.

-All first authors.
-All original research.
-Ultimately resulted in an entirely new treatment convention in neurotrauma, which is currenly being rolled out in several neurotrauma units. No mickey mouse shit.

>at my clinic mostly have a weak personality
Ad hominems
>blinded by the supposed glamour
generalisations, generalisations everywhere
>high toll on your out-of-work life time
Are you fucking serious? This guy is going to be a neurosurgeon and one of the finest in the world. He is going to spend 14 hours per day of his 6 day week in the hospital doing something he loves and you frown upon it.

/Sci/ absolutely hates it when somebody is holding the world in their hands instead of applauding scientific accomplishment.
Stay mad.

>>7714473

I've just been combining the limited information I have with my own experience. It's a common and often useful heuristic.

What can I say. Good for him. I never said anything about a silver platter. Which doesn't matter anyway. Only because it's a lot of effort doesn't mean it must be a good thing.

Also "ad hominem" is something I think that's used to discredit an argument by making the person stating it look bad. We weren't arguing about anything. It's just that when you study medicine you think that the people that operate on the central nervous system must be the sickest motherfuckers on the planet. It's the most complex organ system and they are fucking operating on it. But the reality is that it's a lot of disc prolapses that don't get better no matter whether you operate, and a lot of brain tumors that are lethal no matter whether you operate. Oh yeah you also have hemicraniectomy for malignant MCA strokes, which can safe a life and produce a person that has no quality of life. I'm not saying it's not valuable. But it's certainly not the glamorous magic grey's anatomy might make you believe.

>>7714295
I'm from Australia, you need a high GPA and/or high GAMSAT and/or great interview. However, they will accept internationals or full fee place students here with much lower GPAs provided you pay plenty of money and know that internships (required for registration!) are not a guarantee.

Most universities don't care whether or not your volunteer/life skills but some do like UWA so you could try internationally too.

>>7714671
How high of a gpa do you need to be competitive?

>>7714690
A lot of the GPAs are posted on Pagingdr and people have to write down whether or not it's a full fee place or not.

What unis care about is listed here: http://www.ellipsoid.org/gmi/admissions-info/criteria-and-weightings

There is an international forums specifically for advice for international med students
http://pagingdr.net/forum/index.php?board=11.0

However the internship crisis for international students in Australia is a very real thing because you cannot get registered as a doctor even if you do all the study for it if you don't get an internship. It probably won't affect people who are able to network well/have a good CV and who study well but people do miss out.

>>7714307
Sounds like a fun plan.

Where are you from ?

Medicine to me is applied biology/chemistry; you're either a research biologist trained to use humans as your model or an exhaustively-trained public servant helping people to feel better/not die.

You don't actually have to be an MD to make huge impacts in medicine, however. Biotech companies and research institutes are what are making strides towards curing cancer, not the hospitals themselves. Depending on what their specialties are, many if not most MDs are just given the end results of research they had nothing personally to do with to test in people. Then the patients thank and praise the guys who told them to take the pills. Not the teams of molecular biologists, biochemists etc who slaved for years if not decades to make those pills a reality. Surgery, ER work etc are things imo justified as something to brag about, but the major diseases of our times (cancer, diabetes, Alzheimer's etc) will be cured not by MDs but research biologists. MD-PhDs exist but again the cruxes of these diseases are beyond surgical means hence they will probably be relying more on their PhD side towards discovery.

>>7713784
Medicine isn't STEM. Medicine teaches a profession rather than a science.

>>7714790
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine

>Medicine (British English Listeni/ˈmɛdsɨn/; American English Listeni/ˈmɛdɨsɨn/) is the science and practice of the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease.
>science

>>7714796
Medicine teaches "how" rather than "why". It teaches people how to become doctors/surgeons, sort of like how Law teaches people how to be lawyers.

I respect MDs but just remember that you are basically body mechanics

>>7714823
And science teaches people to become science. Your argument is pretty shit.

>>7714790

But engineering is a profession. So is Actuarial math

>>7715122
What about hotel management?

>>7715127

Not STEM. Are you saying Actuarial Science isn't a STEM field either?

>>7715165
What about digital forensics?

>>7715165
What about tourist guiding?

>>7715165
What about zoology?

>>7713797
It IS a science(or engineering), it's an application of chemistry and biology

>>7715122
>engineering is a profession
Have you noticed that it has it's own fucking letter in STEM (you know as opposed to being grouped with the hordes of S and T plebs).

And as we all know the prestige of "STEM" is really carried by "E" which is what people actually mean when they say STEM.

Medicine can similarly stand on it's own and doesn't need to latch on to engineering.

Why does Technology has it's own letter in 'STEM'? shouldn't it be under engineering?

>>7715355
It's majors like IT/CS, engineering technology etc.

It has nothing to with engineering, it's coursework is closer to S in most cases.

>>7715366
>Computer SCIENCE
>not under S

>>7715416
It isn't. The US government lists it under Technology.

>>7715420
what the actual fuck?
how can americans be this retarded?

>>7713830
The MCAT doesn't do shit. It weeds people out, but nothing in undergrad can actually prepare you for this shit.

Plus, cheating is very prevalent, both relationship-wise and academically.

Fuck this hell.

What do I do with my life now that I have failed at medicine? Can I still be something respectable and of worth to the world?

>>7714390
Ortho? Sheeeet, what's his bench?

>>7715507
Not that guy, but I spoke to an ortho once and he said he and many of his peers never really had time for the gym in medical school. I'm guessing sub 1pl8 unless he worked out a great deal in college or is naturally strong.

>>7715501

Become engineer. Even a half retard can become one, and there's lots of room for advancement, if you become passionate enough.

>>7714295
If you're only going into your second year then you have tons of time to improve the GPA. Plus, med schools may like the fact if you did better as the classes got harder cause it'll show you took things more seriously. Just work really hard, man! Besides going through the regular pre-med route, which includes all of those Chem and Bio classes, you should be fine with a psych major granted you do really well for the latter half of your undergrad. Try to get involved with psych research in your department, too.