How do you feel about the definite possibility that Memedriv

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>>7649538
Too bad magnetic fields can't do work.

>>7649560
And it cant suck cock. I want EMDrive to blow me.

But still, it seems like the results are definitely and systematically reproducible, even in vaccum. So, why dont we just send one up into orbit and test that shit? The thrust it generates is definitely enough for positional micro-control of satellites.

a changing magnetic field never comes alone

>>7649538
thrust measured is barely above measurement error of the equipment. Not even worth considering.

>>7649538
I can already feel the decrepit physics professors screaming at academic seminars as soon as this passes muster well enough to become an academically viable topic.

"BUT MUH ENTIRE LIFE'S WORK IS WRONG!!!"

>>7649666
>>7649666
Nice get, but it's probably not viable

>>7649664
>we are still seeing over 100uN of force with 80W of RF power going into the frustum running in the TM212 resonant mode, now in both directions, dependent on the direction of the mounted integrated test article on the TP

100 Micronewtons are much better than the thrust from a current-gen ion-thruster.

>>7649679
And what's the measurement error of the equipment?

>>7649560
What?!

How can you say that

>>7649679
?
modern ion thrusters are several newtons

>>7649729
That would be the DS4G. Hundreds of millinewtons is more typical for stuff that has been tested in space though

>>7649666
>/sci/ literally thinks people are letting their personal bias get in the way of science
>implying these guys aren't just doing the due diligence of any good scientist

this is how shit works.

Upscaled EMD with 2MW nuclear reactor powered magnetron producing several Kilo-Newtons when

>>7649738
hundreds if millinewtons is a bit more than 100 micronewtons

Every dollar spent on memedrive is a dollar not spent on the research to create catgirls for personal ownership.

>>7649744
Never lol. If you dew the math on such a system you find that over about 2 km/s it should be an over-unity device

>>7649745
Yup

>>7649746
If the memedrive works we can roam the galaxy until we find a whole goddamn PLANET of catgirls.

>>7649746
We need to cure aging, invent catgirls, and then invent interstellar travel. That way, we can be immortal spacefarers with catgirl-maintained morale.

>>7649755
If memedrive works we can also get UNLIMITED POWAH by mounting memedrives on a sufficiently large wheel hooked up to a generator.

If memedrive works anyone could build kiloton of tnt yield kinetic energy weapons in their backyard

>>7649743
Don't pretend that half of the posts most of these threads aren't complete asspain by physics majors.

Also, I did mention that it needs to pass muster first.

>>7649762
>memedrive powered memedrive

I never thought about that desu.

>>7649767
So you ever wonder why UFOs are round and saucer shaped? It's simple on the inside they have two counter rotating wheels of memedrives to power them

wait so if we made a shit ton of meme drives that were huge and put em into space they'd keep accelerating until the solar panels decay right?

>>7649774
That's the idea.

Some theoretize that a sufficiently powerful memedrive/cluster of meme drives combined with a sufficient powersource lasting for, like 100 or so years, will be able to accelerate the drive to near light speeds in 10 years of continuous acceleration.

>>7649780
That's absolutely amazing. We could really open up the solar system. However traveling close to C isn't really fast enough in terms of being able to explore outside of the solar system right? Like the closest star other than the sun is like 4 light years. That's still quite a while. What's next after the meme drive?

>>7649785
Well, 4 or 5+10 years is still pretty good. Certainly beats some hundred thousand years of travel at lower speeds.

>>7649785
>>7649780
Which means anyone could make a WMD in their garage

>>7649793
True. I'm kinda disappointed that it probably won't happen in my lifetime. Like out of solar system travel. Born in the wrong generation kek

>>7649785
too long to send people, but we could send unmanned probes. Power cant be that hard a problem for such a thing.

>>7649795
Yeah but you still need to get it into space.
I'm assuming WMD means weapons of mass destruction.

>>7649798
Yeah but solar panels do degenerate over time. I'm not educated on the other possible electrical power sources the memedrive could use tho.

Okay wait.
memedrives mean no boosting anymore for ISS and w/e.
Also, could we use the memedrives to actually create a station in space to assemble memedrives right there? Considering that would save the money needed to get the memedrives into space. How cool would that be!.

I want this to be real so badly.
But I just know deep down in my heart that it isn't.

>forever stuck on this rock

>>7649751
>over-unity
Why?

>>7650114
Force of the ejected particles/manipulation through self-generated magnetic field/whatever it is that provides the motive force would be less than the force required to maintain speed and accelerate the craft further

i.e. it would (need to) produce more energy beyond a certain speed than it would need to using to maintain the acceleration

i.e. it cannot accelerate further beyond a certain speed.

I'm not STEM, just a hobbyist, so feel free to correct me.

>>7649762
It seems like accelerating in a circle (affecting resonance) or relativistic effects would make that difficult.

Then again zero point energy is also potentially unlimited, so maybe perpetual motion isn't impossible.

>>7650128
It seems like the angular rotation might mess up the resonance or relativistic speed would slow down time resulting in an apparent loss of thrust.

But I haven't done the math.

>>7649743
>>/sci/ literally thinks people are letting their personal bias get in the way of science
people in all areas let their bias get in the way of every single thing they do.

>>7650132
>>7650137
Please don't talk about shit you clearly know nothing about.

And no even with relativistic effects the memedrive's reported thrust to power ratio would allow free energy to be harvested after a sufficient finite amount of constant acceleration. Roger "The EmDrive is purely Newtonian" Shawyer idiotically attempted to avoid this by making up a corrective scaling on its acceleration out of thin air.

>>7649780
>>7649785
Even if memedrive works its pointless to argue practical applications before we have a fusion reactor powering it / them.... The thrust / energy ratio is so bad.

>>7649751
>If you dew the math on such a system you find that over about 2 km/s it should be an over-unity device
From whose reference frame? Are you implying there's such a thing as absolute motion?

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>http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1505/1505.04254.pdf

So, 20,000mW per 0.01cm2, or 2,000W/cm2. One watt equals one joule, and it takes 1.355J to lift 1lb 1 foot. So, 1cm2 of graphene can produce 1,400N of force every second.

My question would be whether or not you could make a stack of graphene plates with lasers underneath each of them, shoot them all with photons, and magnetically steer the released electrons towards the center of the stack (Imagine each plate has a hole in the center, like a CD) and out of a thruster? So, you could stick many meters of surface area in a very small volume.

Are you ready to fly to the stars in diamond vessels, on beams of lightening?

I don't think people realize memedrive still requires energy, just no propellant.

>>7650949
It requires energy, but energy input is fixed for a given force. As a result, once you get above a certain speed, your input energy will produce changes in kinetic energy larger than what you fed in to produce the acceleration. Thus, the device violates conservation of energy as well as conservation of momentum if it works.

>>7650185
Are you implying you understand anything about physics you popsci faggot?

>>7650949
Look at how large the saturn v was, thats all the propellant needed to get to the moon; engines that dont need propellant would be fucking insane.

>>7650973
So you don't need a power source. You could just use a memedrive powered memedrive.

>>7651010
Yes, but the problem is that using less propellant means you need more power. That's why photon rockets haven't cought on.

>>7649768
Wow. You better become a scientist one day anon. You'd put einstein to shame.

>>7649796
We'll do cool things in your lifetime to! Like view the atom.

>>7649803
I love how you guys are having the first serious convo about this. But still call it the memedrive.

>>7650973
>As a result, once you get above a certain speed, your input energy will produce changes in kinetic energy larger than what you fed in to produce the acceleration.

What?? No. Who told you this.

The EmDrive is bunk, all right, but it's bunk for very specific reasons.

>The EmDrive can't work because it, uh, needs unicorn blood for the cooling system, and unicorns are mythical.

If it worked, it would violate conservation of momentum, but not conservation of energy.

>>7651010
Meme drive can't take you off the planet
The saturn V was big because it needed to go to the moon & back in one shot

>>7649706
How can you not take a physics course

A gravitational field cant do work either

>>7652457
Violating the conservation of momentum directly means the conservation of energy is violated.

I can't believe people still bother with that crackpot shit when it clearly contradicts well known and observed physics.
The day someone diverts resources from actual useful research into this is the day science dies.

>>7652457
Shut the fuck up you popsci faggot. Why are you pretending to understand anything about physics when clearly you're a massive idiot.

The memedrive quite clearly violates both CoM and CoE.

>>7649751
>>7649751
>If you dew the math on such a system you find that over about 2 km/s it should be an over-unity device

So the maths is obviously wrong, and a new set of factors come into play, much as a Relativity-based mathematics takes over from a Newtonian understanding of physics once conditions get to a certain point.

Isn't learning new things fun?

>>7649796
>Born in the wrong generation kek
You mean, "Star Kek - the Next Generation".

>>7650163
>Shawyer idiotically attempted to avoid this by making up a corrective scaling on its acceleration out of thin air.

Not to put the guy in the same class as him, but Einstein DID think there was a "Cosmological Constant" for the longest time... and the fact that the universe is expanding still kind of shows him to have been right.

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>>7652495
>>7652511
>muh IMMUTABLE LAWS OF THE UHHNIVERSE!!!

No.

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>dat forum

These guys actually take the memedrive seriously.

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>>7652848
>This guy doesn't even want to test it to prove the results one way or the other.

>>7652459
>A gravitational field cant do work either
niga what da fuck u talking about, W = int(F<dot>dx) is easily non zero in gravitational field

> thrust so tiny thats indistinguishable from error margin
> going to moon in 4 hours
Meme of the year

>>7652892
Now now, he's at least partway through his first semester of physics, let the man speak!

>>7652904
>Things no-one said; THE POST

>>7650980
No, you're implying you've never taken an undergraduate physics course if you don't understand the concept of reference frames and relatives motion. We're dealing with photons and their momentum, so relativity is clearly involved. Now in what reference frame does it behave as an over-unity device?

>build spacestations and bases on other planets
>need to fill them with air
>run out of air on earth
WHOOPS!!!!
space travel is literally cancer.

>>7653014
gee kiddo, you have no idea how space travel really works. Everyone knows that there is air in space, I mean how else would the sun be able to burn?

>>7652932
but that's what the memedrive creators said.

>>7653014
>Being this stupid, yet on /sci/...
OTOH, you'll fit right in.

>>7653059
That is the possibilities reported in popular "science" magazines, yes. As in "one day, maybe we can...".

Thrust has been determined to be around 4 milliNewtons, but more testing is needed because only one test was in vacuum.

Basically, "insufficient data to compose a meaningful reply".

It never ceases to amaze how so many people here claim be stem majors or graduates and yet do not grasp the fundamental principles of science. Test, test, and test again, even if you think it's bullshit.

>>7653128
b-but that's what the memedrive creators said.

>>7653014
>what is a tree?

>>7653144
So I guess that between /sci/ and Roger Shawyer, it actually turns out that Roger Shawyer is the smarter and more scientific one.

How about that?

>>7652457
The memedrive produces a certain amount of force for a certain amount of power. This constant force provides constant acceleration. Thus, the change in velocity produced by the memedrive goes as force*time and the energy fed into the thing to produce this change goes as power*time. The kinetic energy of the thing the memedrive is pushing, however, grows as velocity^2 (or [force*time]^2). Thus, the memedrive can produce larger kinetic energies than it takes to power the memedrive because thing^2 grows faster than thing.

>>7653128
>It never ceases to amaze how so many people here claim be stem majors or graduates and yet do not grasp the fundamental principles of science. Test, test, and test again, even if you think it's bullshit.
In an ideal world, this would be the case. The problem with pushing the memedrive as has been done is two fold, however.
First, resources are limited. As a result, it is a waste to funnel them to pipe dreams.
Second, these bullshit looking results are being repeatedly paraded out by the media to the public as "look at cool science shit." When the "cool science shit" fails to be real, the public takes a dimmer view of scientific investigation, making scare resources scarcer.

>>7654012

That isn't correct. The increase in velocity gets smaller and smaller as you need more energy to reach that speed. It wouldn't produce more energy than it uses any more than a convential rocket.

>>7654027
how does the memedrive know to accelerate less as it approaches greater speeds?

Doing so requires absolute reference frame, which relativity says is not possible

>>7654027
You're only half right. The increase in velocity does get smaller, but not by enough to stop it from breaking conservation of energy. The kinetic energy of a device with constant mass would go above the energy input when it reaches the velocity

2 r c^2 / (1 + r^2 c^2 )

Where r is the thrust to power ratio. Now if we set this equal to c we see the maximum allowable thrust to power ratio

2 r c^2 / (1 + r^2 c^2 ) = c

r^2c^2 - 2rc + 1 = 0

r = (2c+sqrt(4c^2-4c^2))/2c^2 = 1/c

So any reaction-less system with a thrust to power ratio above 1/c will break conservation of energy after reaching a velocity below c. The memedrive has a reported thrust to power ratio several orders higher than this.

>>7654027
I was ignoring relativistic effects intentionally as other people appear to have worked out the point where this becomes true and it is well below relativistic limits.

>>7654051
If the memedrive works, then we don't have to worry about relativity since it is based upon Lorentz invariance, which is clearly flawed due to the violation of conservation of momentum and conservation of energy.

>>7654051
>>7654142
but it gets heavier as it approaches c

>>7654188
In terms of relativistic mass, but this equation uses rest mass, which doesn't change.

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>>7654142
>all velocities are absolute

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>memedrive still not btfo

>>7649796
>Born in the right time for the possibility of travel in the solar system
>Born in the right time where advances in science and society result in an increasing average lifespan further increasing what you'll see in a "generation"
>Still ass blasted at the possibility of not being born in time to see major galactic travel

Idiot here

how come people are discussing whether it works or not? it either does or it don't pham

>>7655549
Field testing is inconclusive.

The issue isn't "it works/it doesn't" the question is if the meme engine has enough validity behind it to warrant the time and resources required to conclusively determine "it works/it doesn't".

It works wow suddenly space travel (among other things) takes a big step forward. It doesn't you wasted A LOT of effort into something that was on rocky ground to begin with.

>>7654358
>I can't understand simple relativistic physics but I will pretend to and make a fool out of myself
Please show me how you would calculate the relativistic momentum of the memedrive.

>empirical evidence that proves conservation of momentum is a bunch of superstitious 18th century horse shit
>so called 'theoretical physicists': it's can't be true because it violates conservation of momentum
>repeat

kek, even theologians have to take courses on first order logic