>Proud American >Proud conservative >I think the left

To what meta-ethical theory do you subscribe?

>>39483418
Internalised homophobia my friend. I feel sorry for you.

>>39483441
Haven't thought about it sorry

File: 1502342581287.png (2MB, 2500x2532px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2500x2532px

>>39483418
You're a furfag? I like furries cuz I like weird things. Try not to worry about extraneous bullshit like this. The left is dying.

>>39483502

Well you really should think about it. Otherwise, why are you a conservative?

Obviously, you think it's in some way "better" than being a centrist or a leftist. The question is, why?

Of course, I'm assuming that by "conservative" you're talking primarily about your support of private ownership of the means of production, which necessitates the existence of one small class that holds near-absolute power over the lives of the large other.

If you stop and think about it, you might find that that's a hard position to justify depending on what you think justice and goodness are.

File: 1443989036731.png (106KB, 310x281px) Image search: [Google]

106KB, 310x281px

>>39483418
Don't hate yourself for being gay. You're living proof that you can't control your homosexuality.

Hate yourself for being a fucking furry.

>>39483558
I was never really even that political until this current election. I just feel like the left is trying to destroy the country through identity politics and victimization. That and uncontrolled immigration destroying Europe, don't want that to happen to U.S.

>>39483545
Thanks man. Nice to know there's fucked up faggots like me.

Origami

>>39483620

So it seems, and forgive me if I am mistaken, like you're concerned about issues like immigration, crime, and the potentially harmful effects of religious extremism.

All of that is perfectly understandable. But I would suggest doing a little reading about the economic systems in play that are a big part of the causal web that leads to such problems.

See, when I read conservative, I was thinking more along economic lines. Conservativism usually implies a belief that certain people should be the ones who have monopolized the means of production, and other people should be their laborers, and the majority of the value of the laborer's work should go to those people, with only a small portion of the value the laborers create going back to them in the form of wages.

A system like this is the foundation of capitalism. Capitalism cannot exist without one small powerful class controlling the lives and taking most of the value of the second class's labor.

The second class is always going to be fucked up, to put it very bluntly, because consciously or subconsciously they realize they're getting screwed. They are getting their asses kicked no matter how hard they work, and some of them are going to end up getting pissed off and stirring shit up. The welfare state is essentially a way of layering up Band-Aids on the major issue in play, which is the fact that a tiny minority of humanity wields tremendous power over the lives of everyone else.

It all ties in.

File: 1494046539567.png (11KB, 263x191px) Image search: [Google]

11KB, 263x191px

>>39483722
Let's just agree to disagree.

>>39483767

That's a cop-out. I don't think you've really given much thought to these issues, and that's unfortunate.

The existence of a powerful bourgeoisie and a proletariat class that gets paid less than the value of the labor they create being necessary to the existence of capitalism is not an opinion, it is a fact.

If everyone had equal access to the means of production, very few would choose to just give the value of their labor to people who already had more power than they did.

File: 1348877054098.jpg (73KB, 637x627px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 637x627px

>>39483418
So you think the left has some magical ability to turn people homosexual? and yet you acknowledge that it is impossible for you to turn yourself straight?

Here's an idea for step 1: stop being a fucking retard with inconsistent beliefs

>>39483844
It's not a cop out. I could literally argue with you about this all night. But I'm tired and sick and depressed right now and honestly don't care about my internet debate honor.

>>39483904

I am sorry to hear you are unwell and hope you feel better soon, but you have to understand that if you start political threads people are going to debate with you.

Best wishes. Get well soon.

>>39483844
God fuck off you insufferable commie. The great thing about modern capitalism is fluidity and the ability to improve your status by developing and inventing things that are desirable and finding a way to profit off of it. The only people who are complaining about it are people who are too pants-on-head retarded to have a unique idea and see it to fruition.

You are a slave not because the system is broken, but because you lack the intelligence and the motivation to build a life for yourself. You would not be any less of a failure in your communist utopia.

-t USSR refugee, small buisness owner, and financially secure.

>>39483418
Learn from this and realize that social conservatism is oppressive and cancerous.

I'm not saying that just because you're gay that means you should be some sort of turbo leftist, but batting for an ideology that hates you is stupid.

>>39483943
Sorry. I just felt like venting, should have thought more.

>>39484078

How did you gain access to the means of production?

File: 1502467547924.jpg (118KB, 917x1280px) Image search: [Google]

118KB, 917x1280px

>>39484106
Capitalism isn't great, but communism is surely worse. The same problems exist with communism -one small powerful class controlling the lives and taking most of the value of the second class's labor.

>>39483545
>the left is dying
No, we're just still dealing with the backlash of our last left winger atheistic revolution that happened in the 60s-80s. Eventually we'll start swinging back left again, and reminder that our standard of living has only dropped since we started swinging right again. We do nothing but lock people up, in the US anyway.

>>39484245

Communism implies a society in which there are no classes and each worker receives the full value of their own labor because every person is allowed access to the means of production, without a coercive gang of thugs paid to attack the majority of people should they try to access it.

Simply because a society calls itself communist does not make it so. The DPRK calls itself "Democratic", yet it is not.

>>39484197
don't appologise to that fucking autistic. These guys sprout from the shitty liberal arts school that their rich parents pay for them to visit, they try to drag you in to these retarded hypothetical conversations using their pretensions and fancy speech patterns. He doesn't know jack shit other than what his uni teacher filled his head with. Property ownership and free enterprise is what will save you, not "seizing the means of production" end eliminating the euntraprenuers that have developed the amazing things we have today.

>>39484232
Get off your ass and improve your life, find a way to improve others, then find a way to profit on improving other lives.

>>39484301
If you were born in a communist nation you would dream of the freedoms you are denied otherwise. In an idealistic sense, yes it is great. Realistically, it is not.

>>39484323

You have no arguments and you are resorting to lies and shaming tactics.

File: 1798109.jpg (239KB, 1280x960px) Image search: [Google]

239KB, 1280x960px

>>39484267
>our standard of living has only dropped since we started swinging right again.
This statement makes no sense.

>>39484340

So you mean if I were born in a society in which the workers had access to the means of production without having to pay the majority of the value of their labor as tax to another class, I would be miserable. I don't see how.

>>39484371
You do realize the country owes most of its debt to that class right? You know that whatever you are paying in taxes your company is matching right? How much do you really know about how shit works right now?

>>39484345
Ill argue with you all night long. Communism doesn't help people because there is no incentive to improve the systems in place. If you remove profit incentive, you remove the incentive to develop new technologies that improve life. Your Marxist revolution requires the destruction of the class people that wanted to improve themselves and used their intelect to do so. Retards like you think that free association between individuals is equitible with slavery, the argument I always hear is "under capitalism, if you don't work you die." Goddamn right. If you don't contribute to society, if you dont provide a useful product or service, you die. Anything else would incentivise laziness and force those who have the internal motivation to do good to provide for those who dont.

This doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the faults in your ideology.

>>39484429

I know that a corporation hires an employee only if the employee creates more value with his labor than he is paid in wages.

>>39483418
Christian conversion therapy.

>>39484435
In fact there is incentive not to do better than your countrymen. Spoiled bitches wish for communism when they already have it better than 60-70% of the world

>>39484435

>Goddamn right. If you don't contribute to society, if you dont provide a useful product or service, you die.

So Paris Hilton contributes more to society every year than 1,000 laborers who create hundreds of thousands of articles of clothing?

>>39483418
This is literally a KYS scenario, faggot.

>>39484452
I know as an officer in a small business when we hire said shit head he is an in payment we expe t returns upon (which we may not see for months/years)

>>39484485

What if someone thinks it's wrong that 60-70% of the world lives in poverty, when a tiny percentage of the world population has grown wealthy because they have monopolized the means of production?

Is empathy for one's fellow man foreign to capitalists?

>>39484517

So you're saying that you do expect to levy a huge tax on the value of his labor to the company.

>>39484522
Do something about it then, volunteer or something. I agree that capitalism is inherently evil, but look at the conditions of the alternative. I definitely think corporations should be held liable for the travasties they commit on foreign soil. but for the small man that has worked his ass off to come up, it is a slap in the face to give it up to those who have not tried and the notion that what I have done could not be possible is fucking repulsive.

>>39484497
She provides a service (entertainment) which is seen as valuable by the masses. Nobody is forcing anyone else to pay money for Paris Hilton, it is a free exchange of money for a service that people think is valuable. Value is subjective, which is why communist good exchanges dont work. Under capitalism, nobody is forcing people to make pants. A pants worker can quit their job and develop a newer, better way to make pants and profit from it. Communism is the real slavery because the desire for upwards mobility is deamonized.

I hate that you force me to justify the existence of Paris Hilton though. Not to mention that your argument with her specifically is bunk, because she basically operates at a net loss. The only reason why she has money is because her rich great grandfather made a lot of money by creating a bunch of hotels that generated a lot of profit.

>>39484522
I do think it's wrong that most of the rest of the world lives in poverty, but through the magic of neo-liberalism it's only a matter of time until the third world catches up to us. Unless they do something stupid, like what Venezuela is doing, of course.

>>39483418
>inb4 kys
Kill yourself in the most original way possible fur scum

>>39484659

I volunteer my labor almost every day. Your implicit assumption that I don't volunteer is very close to being a typical shaming tactic of leftists as being lazy.

The small man would not have to "work his ass off" if it weren't for the fact that a tiny minority of people maintain control of the means of production under threat of death or imprisonment. He would have to work a reasonable amount for reasonable benefit.

Most people want to work. Neurotransmitters such as dopamine in the neural motor circuitry cause physical discomfort if one does not do some sort of productive labor.

The idea that most people are naturally lazy is a lie. Most people will feel actual physical and emotional discomfort if they are left idle for too long, and this is part of the reason people suffering from mobility issues are often severely unhappy.

>>39484673

The second part of your post contradicts the first part.

File: omg quints.png (32KB, 1852x219px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 1852x219px

>>39483722
>Marxist text wall
Internet activist genocide today please.

>>39484715
I didn't imply anything, I answered your question on
>What if someone thinks it's wrong etc..
Good on you,

>>39484356
The US was mostly blue, then as everything got worse we became more and more red.

>>39484781
Yeah, it does. The first part should be seen as to referr to any so-called celebrity that came onto a wealth due to their own entraprenuership. I can think of many musicians and entertainers that fit this ticket.

Yea, some wealth is enherited. that's a great thing. We can provide for our children in such a say so they do not have to work as hard as us. That should be the goal of any well-meaning parent.

>>39483575
You missed the opportunity to say "living poof" as a pun.

>>39484867

>Yea, some wealth is enherited. that's a great thing. We can provide for our children in such a say so they do not have to work as hard as us. That should be the goal of any well-meaning parent.

But that would mean that your children, according to your beliefs, wouldn't have as much incentive to innovate and work hard.

>>39484867
Also, as a follow up, Paris Hilton has created countless support jobs and provided many other people with wealth as a result of her activities. Even though she is operating at a net loss she has had a positive impact.

>>39483418
>Patriot
>Conservative
>Thinks Liberalism is the left
You're certainly contributing to the problem, but not the problem you're thinking of

>>39484883
Sure, and they will loose that wealth, often in a way that has greater good, as explored here >>39484894

>>39484883
And then they dont and they squander their fortune.

>>39484894

She "provided" them with wealth?

They worked to create wealth, and as a member of the bourgeoisie, she taxed the greater portion of the wealth they created for herself.

>>39484938

Right, which is why children of the rich tend to be very, very poor.

Except no, that's not generally what happens.

>>39484078
Why would anything need to improve? That's not fair. Communism is about fairness.

>>39485001

Improvement doesn't imply unfairness.

>>39484938
>>39484883
Also, contrary to the popular opinion, rich people done just sit on their money. They often invest it back in order to grow said wealth. When I started my buisness, I took an investment from someone born into wealth. This allowed me to create a company that improved my life, the life of my customers, and the people I inevitibly employed.
>>39484951
I do not know much about Paris Hilton, but I am operating on the assumption that she is a performer. A performer creates jobs. Without a performer, a stage crew would not be required, a makeup crew would not be required. The company that created stage microphones, cameras, amplifiers, etc. Would not need to exist. The very existence of Paris Hilton's existance allows other people to build companies to profit off of her actions. She _created_ those jobs in a sense that those people would be making pants if she did not exist.

>>39485028
Oh yes it does.

>be old man that had it tough
>watch as the youth have it better
>intentionally sabotage youth to justify your own misery
>civil unrest ensues

>>39484971
You mean because they get the best education and make wise moves with their money, creating more wealth?

And also, I have seen people blow through millions in the matter of years and now have less than I. They are not 1%ers but still had millions to pass on and yes the kids are poor af now.

>>39485048

>When I started my buisness, I took an investment from someone born into wealth. This allowed me to create a company that improved my life, the life of my customers, and the people I inevitibly employed.

So the start of your business was contingent upon someone's unearned wealth. If it weren't for the fact that that person was born with access to the means of production, without having had to lift a finger for it, you wouldn't have been able to start your business.

>>39485068

Are you the person I was talking to in that reply, or someone else?

>>39485048
>They often invest it back in order to grow said wealth

except they usually invest it in areas that don't create employment. instead they put it in wall street gambling which has better returns but doesn't add any value to the real world. it's not like no rich people invest in real businesses, but it's not anywhere near common, and they usually have to be helped by the government to take risks on innovation and other stuff that's not practically guaranteed to work out. they'll also happily spend money squashing innovation if it threatens their current businesses; energy is a great example of this. solar power is totally awesome even if you think climate change is a chinese hoax, but it spent most of its early years being subsidized on one end and battered by fossil fuel companies on the other because big business is terrified of change and giving anyone else a chance to succeed.

well, also a lot of money the ultrarich just immediately send overseas so they can wait for a tax holiday to move it back to the states. it just sits over there, rotting in a bank account, waiting to come back to rot in another bank account.

>>39483545
The left isn't dying at all. Its just that the shadow council that was exposed in the democratic party created a huge schism in the part when they put the head right back in power and said "One month away from the party was 'punishment enough.'" If Bernie or someone on his level doesn't take over the party soon we may see the death of the democratic party and the rise of another. If the shadow council isn't dissolved and gone by the next election the 30 and under crowd will be fucking gone

>>39485058

That's exactly the same kind of thinking that underlies the practice of female genital mutilation--women who were mutilated feel the need to mutilate their daughters to justify the fact that they themselves were mutilated.

Not everyone is that fucked up.

Capitalism can be fixed with one easy step. Make it so that all profit is immediately seized from any company that does not ensure that none of its employees qualify for welfare.

Done. Easy and simple fix. Make it so the company must pay its workers enough so that they don't need government assistance and everything is clear skies and sunshiny days.

>>39485213

Just eliminating welfare entirely would mean that none of the employees qualified for welfare.

Then you'd have a situation like Bangladesh or India (India has welfare but it's so insanely corrupt that it may as well not have it)

>>39485154

I already plan to be. I don't think there's any practical plan but elevating the Greens.

I guess the debate at this point is, which is the least time-consuming and most promising path; a coup-de-grace from inside the Democratic party Bernie style, or a massive jump away from the Democrats to another party, likely to the Greens and Jill Stein? Because we don't have much time. I think America is doomed for disaster if the 1% and the corporations continue getting their way in our political system. It's detached nobility making decisions within their own tiny world and ignoring the reality that is beating on their windows. You can ignore reality, but that doesn't make it go away, and the decision making from the leaders we didn't elect is so awful that it is destroying the country and the country's ability to recover.

Anyway, I think the Democratic establishment is too calcified for change to happen quickly enough from within it. I think we need an electric revolution from a new party sweeping into power, and the Greens have the most promising platform for capturing the energy that exists, as well as the best extant infrastructure of a non-primary party.

>>39485072
>unearned wealth
Your presumption and lack of understanding shine through yet again. My investor (without indulging too many details) single handedly invented, developed and sold an aeroplane navigation component. Started from zero, just like me. Nobody is born with the world inherently owing them the means of production. All you can ask for is that others stay out of your way while you build a life for yourself.

>>39485149
I agree with you that government subsidised wallstreet gambles are shitty as hell. The government should not be in the place of securing those sorts of gambles, like they did in 2008.

I am glad you brought up the energy industry, because I am actually familiar with this. Things like solar power and wind power are not viable because without government subsidies, they are way too expensive to be seen as a reasonable source of energy. What a lot of people dont understand is that fossil fuels are basically the same. Without governemnt intervention, we would be in the process of moving over to sources like geothermal, and especially nuclear at this point. The market really want to head in a good direction here, but the fossil industry pushes the government to overregulate things like thorium nuclear to the point where fossils are still the most viable source. That needs to end NOW.

>>39485252
I didn't say to eliminate welfare. I'm saying make it so that anyone willing to work doesn't need it. In fact they wont even qualify for it. Welfare should be exclusively for those that cant work or have suffered a tragedy they couldn't expect like a car crash while they heal.

There should NEVER be a situation where a citizen works for 40 hours a week and qualifies for ANY welfare.

>>39485287

I think jumping ship from the Democratic party is the way forward. They are IMO a toxic stew of bad policy and bad faith.

There is no need for them to even exist; they're holding society back every bit as much as the Republicans if not more so.

>>39485299

First you said he inherited money, then you said he started from zero. Which is it?

>>39485156
Not everyone is that fucked up, but in countries against lefts they tend to be. In our right winger capitalist murika we cut baby dick over and over.

>>39485304
They do it that way to phase out welfare as much as possible.

>>39485349
Sorry, I misswrote on the first one, he was not born into.wealth but acquired it through an exchange of goods and services. I understand that is confusing and totally my fault. My general point though is that wealthy people who remain wealthy do not do so by letting that wealth stagnate.

>>39485369

And yet almost every other country that started male circumcision in the 1800's with the aim of suppressing male sexuality eventually quit doing it for the most part during the course of the 1900's, once the idiotic idea that masturbation and sexual pleasure caused every disease under the sun was shown to be a crock of shit.

Australia, the UK, New Zealand, Canada. All those countries used to have massively high circumcision rates but eventually stopped.

The outlier is the USA. Why do you think that is? It's not a rhetorical question, I'm asking your thoughts on the matter.

>>39485333

Absolutely. I think they're bad enough, and flush with enough corporate cash, that it's not paranoid or crazy to see the party as a deliberate hamster wheel for the left. I think it now exists to absorb and waste populist, lefty energy in ways that won't impact the status quo.

Now the trouble is convincing people other than the two of us to abandon ship, even though it seems crazy.

>>39485287
The best bet is a party reform. To keep the people who are just there to be anti republican. How to fucking do that who the fuck knows since the shadow council is still in control. Even Bernie said there is not much he can do. Other than that the best thing to do is to have as many people as possible switch to republican and fuck it up as much as possible from the inside. At that point with both parties fully in the shitter 3rd parties could make a move.

>>39485299

nuclear energy is very underappreciated. the waste is really bad, but there's not anywhere near as much of it as a fossil fuel plant and you can deal with it safely if you're not cutting corners.

if i fully understand the latest designs, they've also made plants that are very resistant to melting down in almost any circumstance.

i still like seeing solar farms go up because they don't pump out shittons of smog, but nukes are probably where we need to go if we also plan to cover the power needs of the developing world.

>>39485386
Ok and? That literally means nothing. Welfare is a must for a society to work because shit happens. hurricane Irma is about to fuck up Florida and Texas is still fucked from the hurricane that just hit them. The thing is to not phase it out or get rid of it. Its to make it so no one qualifies.

>>39485448
>believing in alternative energy before the rich people run out of oil to sell
LOL where I live they banned solar power panels. It doesn't matter if it works or not, it'll get lobbied against.

>>39485409
Yes, that's because lack of empathy and stupidity go hand in hand with a country duped by capitalist corruption.

>>39485412

I was never a Democrat to begin with. From the get go I felt they were nothing more than a foil against progressivism. But I get what you mean.

I don't see how it can be done. It honestly baffles me how so many people fall for their BS and vote for them. To the point where I don't even know what to say and don't know how the problem can be solved, either.

I don't even understand how people were like "Yay Obama" after the PRISM leaks. Suddenly almost no one cared about privacy rights, and daytime talk shows were like "We need to adjust to a society without privacy" (I believe the show they said that on was The View). What the fuck?

>>39485448
>solar panels dont pump out a shitton of smog.
The thing about solar panels is they do have a very harmful carbon footprint, but not on the frontend like fossil fuels do. Its all on the backend that you dont see. The proccess of mining, refining, and developing photovoltaic panels is awful, and that doesn't even begin to touch the shittyness that is lithium batteries.

Solar panels are great for one thing ... small installation off-the-grid power. Anything other than that makes me cringe, especially when people say it is "green."

>>39485386
>>39485467

I think the main point being made here is that in our current system, the pressure is on the worker to get themselves off of welfare, whereas the system that's being proposed puts pressure on employers (people who actually have power) to get their workers off of welfare.

The problem with capitalism is that the corporations are in control to much. They need to pass laws that give employees almost full control over how many hours they work a week. We need to git rid of this 32 hour bullshit that lets them dodge benefit laws. If an employee declares that they want to work for 40 hours the company must accommodate them. If an employee only wants to work 1 8 hour shift a week the company must accommodate them.

>>39485532
Exactly. Walmart should not be making trilons of dollars when Walmart employees are soaking up trillions in welfare. That simply should not fucking happen. If a company makes any profit at all it should immediately be funneled to the employees to get them off welfare. If the company refuses they forfeit all profit to the government.

>>39485532

But the current welfare system actually punishes those who try to work to get off it.

https://shelterforce.org/2011/07/25/eliminate_the_poverty_trap_of_means-adjusting/

It's a fundamentally defective system if the goal is to get people off it.

>>39485552
Or employees/consumers need to make the concious choice to refuse buisness that doesn't treat their employees ethically. Many say it is part of the human condition to be ambivolent, but I disagree. You just need to show people the power of their choices.

If you believe that workers of the world can unite the uniformly create a perfect communist state, and live in peace and harmony, I will laugh if you say that consumers cant/wont do some basic research before buying their goods.

>>39485621
That only works in a situation where the consumer can make a choice. I can literally ONLY afford to buy food at Walmart as the only other option Publix is to expensive. It doesn't mater what my views on Walmart is when I can only afford to buy from them.

>>39485653

If you had access to the means of production (such as a reasonably sized tract of arable land) you could grow a lot of your own food. From your mention of Publix I assume you're in the south, right?

The south has a mighty long growing season and its climate can support certain very high energy yield crops like certain strains of avocado.

>>39485616

Welfare is broken in America because the support is qualified by heaps of resentment. The policies are bad, but they're powered by the ill will of the American people.

>>39485621

You know, this was actually the reason I liked going to Whole Foods, because they seem to treat their employees the best of all the major grocery chains. It's hard to find ethical choices for where to shop because the entire damn system is guilty, but that was something I was sort of comfortable with.

And guess what fucking happens? Fucking monopoly LARPer Jeff Bezos buys it.

>>39485674
If you own land or join a cooperative you can do this too. Growing food does not require the overthrow of the so-called "ruling class."

For the record, I am totally OK with private communes based on free association. My only issue is when you fellows try to seize other peoples property.

>>39483722
>Conservativism usually implies a belief that certain people should be the ones who have monopolized the means of production, and other people should be their laborers, and the majority of the value of the laborer's work should go to those people, with only a small portion of the value the laborers create going back to them in the form of wages.
Conservatism means the family unit is the molecular structure of society, liberalism puts individuals at that level instead.
Read a book nigga. it has nothing to do with your fantasy bourgeois bullshit. Conservatism exists in socialist countries too

>>39485727

Most people cannot afford to buy land because the majority of the value of the labor they create is taxed by the bourgeoisie.

>My only issue is when you fellows try to seize other peoples property.

What is it that makes a piece of land someone's private property?

>>39485674
So does having a garden mean your lawn is crossing the line from personal property over to private property?

>>39485762
What you are talking about is social conservatism. There also exists a well defined term of economic conservatism that values private ownership and free market ideals. Unfortunately they are often bundled together, but in all honesty at this point words dont matter.

>>39483722
>>39485762

Conservatism is generally just a reluctance to take risks or change in regards to some activity or the use of some resource. If you're conservative with your money, it means you don't risk or use much of it. If you're conservative socially, it means you don't put yourself out much socially. If you're conservative politically, it means you generally favor how things are and would rather they didn't change more, or preferably you'd like to regress a little bit. It's the wave that hangs back from the mainstream and way the fuck back from the avant garde.

>>39485819

If you employ laborers to work the land, yet only pay them a portion of the value they create for you, it is private property as you are taxing their labor.

If you are growing vegetables and enjoying the fruit of your own labor, it is personal property.

>>39485803
If you cant afford land you are retarded. You can pick up acres of tillible land in the USA for cheap. A wageslave can do it. The issue is they are so attached to capitalist inventions like electricity and running water that they dont have the guts to do it. Most commies are immaciated betamale faggots that couldn't put together a garden if they wanted to.

>you cant own land because all land was stolen from the natives/you cant own land because land cant belong to people and other hippie bullshit.
Get over it. All land in the USA has been owned, assigned with a deed, and can be transfered. Stop with your deconstructionist defeatism/postmodernism and operate with the rest of society.

>>39485867
So if your neighbour agrees to pick your strawberries for you in exchange that he gets to keep a few it's off to the gulag for you?

>>39485947

Again with the shaming tactics. This is so ridiculously common. Look at your post and realize the kind of bullshit you're posting.

>>39485958

Does your neighbor need to pick your strawberries because he himself has no access to arable land because others have seized it violently and are preventing him from using it via threats of violence?

Or is he doing it because he thinks it would be an enjoyable and productive use of his time?

File: 1321719.jpg (59KB, 640x560px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 640x560px

>>39483418
>>39483545
>>39484245
>>39484356
wtf I thought furshit was a bannable offense on this board

>>39485867
How do you expect to create anything tangible with this model? Not everyone has enough room to grow every veggie and fruit. So I grow strawberries, and trade them to other people and get squashes and yams. I figure out a really neat way to plant strawberries so I can double the yeild and do more trades so more people can have more strawberries. You are saying that it would be more ethical to let some people go without strawberries than it would be to mutually engage with a person as to more quickly pick and distribute my strawberries? I would love to give you guys a chunk of fertile land and see how quickly everything goes to shit. Oh wait, we have already done this in
>Russia
>Ukraine
>Yugoslavia
>Venezuala
>Romania

And hundreds others. And they have all either collapsed, or had such small growth and way lower standard of living than any modern capitalist country.

>>39485974
This is 4chan, not tumbler/reddit. I call you names and you call me names. How about you either suck it up and address my arguments, or fuck off back to where you came from. By complaining about the way I address you, you are only furthering my point that you are a fucking beta manchild.

>>39486070

Trading =/= private ownership of the means of production.

Additionally, he wealth of first world countries is dependent upon an incredibly low standard of living for the third-world proletarians who create a massive amount of the goods and services used in those countries.

Rich countries simply sweep the suffering of the workers under the rug, into foreign nations. The suffering and anguish is still there, it's just hidden from view.

>>39485947
I used to believe that you could just pick up land until I realized that the land for sale is hoarded by assholes. It's not like you can run up to a dealership and buy land. The most famous websites for buying it look like they were designed in the early 90s, something's off about it. I've read about people trying to contact owners of land and being ignored.

>>39485867
>>39485958
>>39486000

When does this highly specific theoretical scenario become relevant to me sitting in my apartment worrying about my money, thinking about the meaningless job I work, while feeling both concerned and powerless in regards to the leadership of the huge nation of my birth leading us all into irrecoverable disaster because they put less thought into their choices than I put into 4chan posts?

File: Reese_&_Xan.jpg (128KB, 632x944px) Image search: [Google]

128KB, 632x944px

you either are or are not homosexual (or heterosexual). No amount of "promoting" it will make more people gay.

Find something else to whine about.

>>39486000
It's because all the land near him has been seized as the personal property of his neighbours which he is prevented from using under threat of violence, and the community has decided not to use it's arable land to grow any strawberries.

>>39486107

The purpose of the shaming tactics is to bait the other person into doing the same thing to you, thereby lowering the level of discourse and making your opponent look the fool. I'm not going to fall for it.

If you don't agree with genocide, you cannot defend what was done to the Native American nations by the colonists.

>>39486148

So what you're saying is, it's an overpopulation scenario. Everything is crowded out because people are all crammed together and there's no space left. Everyone is sitting on everyone else's head like in Mumbai.

>>39486111
I am actually generally an economic isolationist. I dont think it is moral for a country to export labour to the third world, and I dont neccisarily think we should be doing it. A lot of my core philosophy is voluntary transactions and social consumer awareness, which doesn't really work when you have everything manufactured overseas.

That being said, I do recognise that third world impoverished nations have actually benifited a lot from our export of labour. As countries like the USA grow economically, so do places we export labour to. Statistics show this. Third world poverty is shirnking at a very fast rate.

>>39486115
Not even joking, if you want some tips I can help you out. Land ownership is a hobby of mine and I have some experience.

>>39486177
I don't agree with genocide, but I am also a pragmatist in the sense that I understand creating an inferior communist state is not a solution to the suffering natives experienced centuries ago, and continue to experience today. I do believe that there are still reparations required in order to improve the quality of life for native persons, although I dont think the solution is abolishing free trade. Interesting you mention native Americans though, since an interesting phenomenon amongst those groups is that they generally thrive when they interface with free markets (think casinos) and dont do as well when the government pumps millions of dollars into their reserves.

>>39486326
>land buying is a hobby of mine
Then you're one of the assholes that buys them all up you fucking faggot.

>>39486347
Haha, I dont own nearly enough to make a dent, just a plot in Wisconson. I do know who you are talking of though. Selling land hasn't really progressed into the 21st century all that well, and if you want to get skin in the game you generally have to persue personal interactions with those type of people.

>>39486404
>want to be a hermit because cannot stand people
>hard to even find parks to put tent on
>try to buy land
>must go bowling with them first
I'd rather take out one of their eyes and threaten to take the other.

>>39486443
Haha I know that feel bro. What sort of biome are you looking for?

My dream is to find a quiet place in western slope Colorado where I can bring my RV and live off the land without anyone bothering me.

>>39486512
Basically the same as you, but I'd use a six foot van, for they're cheaper and can blend in to walmart parking lots and such without as much harassment. There are lots of walmarts that say "no overnight rv parking" afterall.

>>39486512
To add to my post >>39486841 I originally did want Colorado but then realized Oregon might be more my taste for hating right wingers. Any weed state in any case, and Colorado was the first to be, of which is why my instincts said that one. Realistically I'd probably never own land and will spend any money I get on a van, of which is why I brought up the parking lots, though whilst saving money in the lots one could save up enough to possibly buy the land.