Why do people think it's okay to have children? >Forcing

I know this as all too well. It makes me believe that they are just selfish and cannot accept what's actually better for the population in general

>>39301470
>be one of 8 kids
>6 are girls
>three of our immediate relatives are violent paranoid schizophrenics
>this shit is genetically inherited
>two of my sisters have already popped out kids
>I now have 3 nephews

>>39301470

Someone go ask their parents this and report back with the answers.

>>39301470

they could end it if they really wanted to

It's literally not unless you're super rich, and even then it's just neutral, not good, unless your kid is so smart and good that they reduce the amount of suffering in the world by inventing something or becoming a doctor etc. I see people who have kids and put them into a life of working as lower than animals. Adopting a kid who looks like you is the redpill

>>39302251
>Implying they would have to if they weren't manifest into being in the first place

Suicide isn't something easy to accomplish

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>>39301470

I ask myself this question everytime i see anyone posting comments about how happy they would be with a wife and kids.

It's ridiculous

you're making too big of a deal of existence tee bee haytch fampai

>>39302251

+1 on >>39302334
Suicide isn't easy. There barely any reliable methods and some are hard to achieve (guns if you're not in the US or heights because you'll have to fucking get through a huge door). That plus your family might blame you.

Medical suicides for non-terminal people when? Suicide is legal anyway in most of the western world.

>>39301470
I unorincally wish I could live until this planet becomes uninhabitable

i have a child. me and my partner are both smart, moral people. we hope to raise more smart, moral people. if i don't procreate, the world will be full of dumb, immoral people.

>>39301470

White pepo: post this fag shit

Muslims: have a dozen kids, raise their children to be religious, raise them to go on and have another dozen each

>>39302516
what kind of logic is this? The dumb people will always outnumber the smart ones. Just because you have "smart kids" does not mean dumb people will automatically stop reproducing. Why would you birth your child into a shitstorm where they're constantly surrounded by intellectually inferior people? Are you too pathetic to make a significant contribution yourself, so you have to concinve yourself that your children are going to "make it" and that you're somehow making a difference to the world?

>>39302516

What do you care if the world is full of dumb people? You'll die in the end. One or two more smart people won't change anything. You look to cover your lack of morality and deep thought about having a child by saying you help the world. Your help is minimal at best and won't make a change for shit.

Even if you had 20 children and they all had 5 children each the world would still be full of retards and evil/immoral people. Such is human nature.

>>39302524

Because muslims are mostly religious, and that lifestyle turns people into imbeciles as it suppresses free thought.
I'm OP and I'm not even white.

>>39302586
you made a whole lot of assumptions there. i don't think my kid is going to make any difference, but we can't let the world be 100% dummies.

>>39302642

So it'll be 99.9999999% dummies. Even if you didn't have your child, it would still be 99.999999% dummies. It makes no difference.

>>39302642
Origin al y why?

>>39302642
if you don't think your kid is going to make a difference, then why does the world not being 100% dumb people matter? It makes no difference after all.

>>39302642
If you don't have kids, once you die none of this matters because you won't be here to experience it.

>>39302622

>"muslims are mostly religious"
>calling other people imbeciles

>>39302723
i think OP meant religious as in devoted to their religion. Some muslims don't fully follow their religion or care for it much but are still members of the religion.

>>39301470
I'm with you OP. The one thing I want more than anything is to have not been born. I drift further to suicide everyday.

You have to realise though; you can't convince breeders and their sympathisers that breeding is even possibly, remotely immoral. It goes directly against their biological imperative, upon which their entire life is founded. No matter nazi, liberal commies, muslims, niggers, Anglos, chinks, whatever; they all look at what they want (to breed) and how to achieve that (breeding). There is no thought that goes into it, and if there is, the couple probably won't have kids.

I also realise not everyone is mentally ill. I KNOW it's immoral for me to breed. I can't say if it is for anyone else, but I can say I think the world (meaning humanity) would be better off not experiencing any more suffering (which is caused by existing)

>>39302723

>>39302749 is right, originally.

>Forcing another human being into existence, assuming he would want this

This is so stupid. Just because you have a miserable life doesn't mean everyone who would be born will.

>>39301470
it is what people do, though. there's an opportunity for little me to succeed wildly, as a young white male, as long as he doesn't drink the kool-aid. sorry you don't see it that way, i guess you must have shitty genes or something.

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>>39301470
>Forcing another human being into existence, assuming he would want this
Yes, but this is flawed logic, since if they didn't exist to begin with, they didn't have any rights, and ultimately you go into a loop.

As long as you're a decent parent/person, there's no reason to believe that they wouldn't want to be alive. It's immoral to have kids if you're not ready, willing, and able to spend 18 years of your life dedicated to this person, and perhaps even more, but people who aren't those things aren't exactly the type of people to be making moral decisions.

>Do it because "It's natural", "everyone does it", "I feel this is my meaning", "It would make me happy" or some other stupid reason
I will have a kid because, firstly it's God's plan, secondly I want to have a kid to pass on myself and to create a person and build them up to be better than I am.

>Call him an egoist who doesn't care about the family if he says he doesn't want it in the future even though the real egoist is the parent
You're a dick anyways, but not because you don't want to have a kid, that's merely a symptom of the problem.

>>39302189
My parents would say "Then don't have kids, I don't care". Because they honestly don't as long as I'm happy. Because they're good parents.

>>39302463
Never. Because if you want to kill yourself for a reason other than untreatable physical pain, it's mental pain, and it's better to cure that pain than let you take your own life. Morally.

>>39302818

But there is the chance that he will.
Also the state of not existing is better than the state of existence as not existing is neutral, not good nor bad and existence is a mix between good, bad and neutral.

>>39302828
See my answer to the guy above.

>>39302868

There are two options: That he'd want to live or not. Many people don't want existence, if they are open about it or not.

Look at >>39302869. The position of not existing is better logically than existing.

Why do you care? Why does it matter if the person after you is better or not?
Why do you assume it is god's plan? If god exists, how can you know what he wants?

Not everyone can cure their mental pain. Chronic mental illness/disorders exist.

>>39302869
>sh(cope)nhauer

i don't know, maybe you're right. people like you shouldn't pass on your mentally ill, flabby bitch genes. i like being alive, i like being young. i would want to share that experience with someone else and guide them away from the pratfalls i fell into. if most people are evil retards than i'd like to be one of the ones cleaning up house, not a bum making people aware of the shittiness of life with no intention of doing anything about it. people talk about jews being the white genocide, but you do it to yourselves.

>>39302944
IN YOUR OPINION many people don't want to exist. You've got no evidence to this basis. This site is a hive of mental illness as it is, to be using it as a point of reference for the rest of the population is ridiculous.

Life's not great all the time, it's not meant to be. To say that it is is ridiculous.

>The position of not existing is better logically than existing.

No, it's not, because if you don't exist, you don't have the capacity in which to judge that.

>Why do you care? Why does it matter if the person after you is better or not?

If I'm the parent, my goal is to raise someone better than I was raised. And I was raised great, so I've got tremendous shoes to fill.

>Why do you assume it is god's plan? If god exists, how can you know what he wants?
God does exist and he's told us. Not to mention the fact that he gave us the capacity to reproduce.

>Not everyone can cure their mental pain. Chronic mental illness/disorders exist.
I know, my family is full of people with this. It's something you have to take one day at a time, but you can be enjoying life.

Essentially, using your logic, NOT letting someone exist is robbing them of the opportunity to enjoy parts of their life. That's equally as likely as not enjoying parts of your life, and I disagree that neutral is better than good with the possibility of bad. Neutral is oblivion, good with the possibility of bad gives you the option to make things better for yourself.

>>39302983

You're really into those strawmen and ad-hominem arguments, aren't you? Insulting me as an attempt to escape the truth.

You're not cleaning up anything. You are insignificant. I didn't say life is shitty, I said forcing another person into it is.

Weird how you claim to be intelligent while throwing so many arguments based on ad-hominem and emotion rather than actual logic.

>>39302944
>muh logic

if your logical games lead you to living a sedentary, shitty life, isolated from your peers and unmotivated to do anything, logically, the thing to do is drop that shit like a bad habit. if you're really just another fucking animal, the last thing you should be trying to do is ape the ((((nihilist fabrication)))) Most High and be omniscient all the fucking time.

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Aww, a 19 year old is experiencing an antinatalism phase. How cute!

>>39302983
Precisely this.

It's the equivalent of you and two other people being in a shitty house. One of the other two is making it more shitty, the other one is cleaning it up. You don't like how shitty the house is, but you recognize that it's not going to get better with just one person cleaning. Instead of helping him out and then stopping the guy spreading shit around, you sit there and moan about how futile an attempt the guy cleaning is making and that it's ultimately better if you just accept the shitty house, while simultaneously complaining about how shitty the house is.

>>39302868
>and it's better to cure that pain than let you take your own life. Morally.
>morally
What the fuck am I reading? Morally relative to whom?

>>39303023

>No, it's not, because if you don't exist, you don't have the capacity in which to judge that.

Exactly. Complete nothing against a mix of good and bad.

>If I'm the parent, my goal is to raise someone better than I was raised. And I was raised great, so I've got tremendous shoes to fill.

That argument is based on emotion.

>God does exist and he's told us. Not to mention the fact that he gave us the capacity to reproduce.
I see you're religious. Once you bring religion into this it is impossible to argue with you as you use faith instead of arguments.

>I know, my family is full of people with this. It's something you have to take one day at a time, but you can be enjoying life.
For some. Not all.

Nothing at all is better than bad and good.

>>39303065
Not an argument.

>>39303068
Ad-hominem argument.
Insulting people doesn't disprove them.

>>39303074
Not really. More like one person who enjoys living in a shitty house decides to bring more people into a shitty house to suffer while not making a single difference. In the end the house remains shitty.

>>39303048
see
>>39302944
someone is talking about mental illness as an invalidating factor. the flabby bitch comment was more of a shot at schopey.

this is a conversation about emotion, identity and mental illness. these are all very important moving parts in the discussion of whether or not life is worth it. i like being a tough motherfucker. i enjoy living in the shit. the threat of injury, illness and pain drive me further onward to hone myself. i'm really sorry you are so satisfied with your negative predisposition with analyzing everything all the fucking time. it's a depressing habit. it doesn't contribute anything to society but the creation of more depressed know-it-all assholes who ultimately don't want to do anything with their lives, least of all operate in modern society and find, at least, satisfaction.

>>39303023
>not to mention the fact that he gave us the capacity to reproduce
He also gave us the capacity to kill, commit suicide, and hate existence

>>39303136
here, let me make it easy for you.
>IF: if your logical games lead you to living a sedentary, shitty life, isolated from your peers and unmotivated to do anything, logically,
>THEN: the thing to do is drop that shit like a bad habit.
>IF: if you're really just another fucking animal,
>THEN: the last thing you should be trying to do is ape the ((((nihilist fabrication)))) Most High and be omniscient all the fucking time.

that's the main idea of the ongoing argument with anonymous, in case you have trouble catching it, molymeme.

>>39303121
Morally relative to God.
>>39303136
>Exactly. Complete nothing against a mix of good and bad.

I'd take a mix of good and bad. Complete nothing is precisely... nothing. And there's no person experiencing it anyway, so you physically can't experience nothing. You're using this in terms of us having a soul but then ignoring that we have a soul to begin with, as well.

What I'm saying is, nobody experiences nothing. You can ONLY experience good or bad.

>That argument is based on emotion.
It's not, it's based on morals, but your argument is based on emotion.

>Nothing at all is better than bad and good.
But your only option is to experience good and bad since, as I already stated, you can't experience nothing. There'd be no you to experience it.

>>>39303160
Not true at all. That's a matter of opinion.

I've gotta go, but remember, sage grows in ALL fields.

>>39303241
It's not an inherent physical property, though, is it.

Reproduction is built in. It has it's own separate system.

That stuff you mentioned is also built in. It's free will. Do with it what you please, that's your choice to make.

>>39303206

Who cares about contribution to society? Pay your damn taxes and fuck off. Capitalism is everyone for himself anyway.

You wanna use arguments based on emotion? fine. I can do it too.

Why would you have a child that will later have to experience pain, misery, remorse... Sure, there will be some good. But why would you put your child through 60-70 years of life just because you wanted to?

>>39303279

Then not experiencing anything is better than experiencing good and bad.

Morals are subjective, like emotion. Point me to where I used an emotion-based argument.

>>39303279
>to god
I believe there is a god but he doesn't care about anything on earth. What you people call god can really be attributed to aliens.

>>39303292
I would have to actively try to kill myself, just as I would have to actively try to reproduce. I have hands and could choke myself, legs to run off a cliff, a brain to devise a more efficient method, etc.

>>39301470
I have an anxiety disorder, no need for that to be passed down let me tell ya

Also, keep in mind you have to actually try to have kids, whether through neglect (not wearing and condom but having sex) or with intent (fucking during high fertility). Either way, there is more action required to force existent than to not (remaining virgin or having a vasectomy).

That means you either want someone to suffer (because everyone experiences suffering, it's a matter of how well each person takes it, and this is not guarateed) or it is a case of negligence. Both of which I see as immoral
>incoming virgin ad homs

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It's selfish to have kids

Especially if you're

>Short
>Poor
>Uneducated
>Have a mental illness
>Have diseases or disorders
>Genetically inferior

Etc - I live a miserable existence because of most of those reasons. My parents had a total of 6 children, they barely were able to afford to take care of them. They're poor living off of food stamps and welfare, everyone around me is a pill popper or junkie except me. Here I am as the useless retarded NEET that dropped out of a bad school a few years ago and has done nothing with his life since. No motivation nor the tools to change things. When they die and the government assistance along with them, then I'm dead too.

What was the point of me existing then? They would've done me and themselves a favor by aborting me.

>>39302869
>and theres a chance he will
And again theres a decent he wont. Just because theres a chance he'll suffer or lightly/mildly struggle (like most people) doesnt mean his entire life will be nothing but suffering.

Judging from modern civilization theres an extreme possibility he'll live q very average life. By the logic of suffering we shouldve stopped procreating long before discovering fire. All children born before our easy mode life style suffered tremendously.

Christ Chan is the cancer killing [r9k]

>>39303317
>muh all-or-nothing capitalism, "every-man-for-himself," being a cutthroat asshole is the american way

it's not how i was raised. you give until it hurts, and then you give more. creating art, learning self-defense, creating technologies and scientific advances that make the world safer and all-around better, these kind of things elevate the self along with the world around you, even if there isn't an monetary compensation for them. there are plenty of studies showing that high quality music can relieve pain, even in animals like cats, experienced meditators and triathletes are better at enduring pain. i don't have any remorse for the days i worked hard.

maybe people are just large, complicated series of chemical reactions. even if they are, introducing existentialism and philosophical concepts isn't going to change you into a free-thinking, independent agent. at worst, it's a suicidal person who's also a coward, playing logical games in order to turn exterminating themselves into a positive thing. i doubt your suffering is going anywhere, that way, unless you push it out with a bullet. have a nice day, guy.

>>39303555
Don't worry. The desert cultist was BTFO this time

Can't wait to destroy humanity and laugh as moralfags cry over it.

>>39301470
They don't know any better. That's it really.

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>>39303593
>said the same shit over and over as a dead NEET

>fat boomer fuck drops out of college to get married, has 7 kids and 3 divorces
>complains about how hard her life was and how I just don't get it
WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE YOU FUCKING RETARD?

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>>39303642
What are you even trying to say? Is it condescending?

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>>39303725
you've been possessed by schopenhauer

>>39301470
it's a biological incentive, you autistic fuck.

I want kids of my own, but I really hate myself and life and often wish I was never born to begin with. Maybe one day I can adopt an orphan or something if I get a gf. Failing that I can just try to work up the courage to kill myself anyway.

>>39303776
>that makes it ok
I'm sorry you're and animal that can't control itself

We need to experience everything in order to be who We truly are.

One cannot do harm to another person by "bringing them into existence," just as we do not do harm to chickens and cows. Chickens and cows are bred for the express purpose of being fundamentally enslaved and eventually killed, yet we would not say we have done them a disservice by granting them life. Just as it is with human beings.

This is due to the misunderstanding of what a nonexistent person's welfare level is. When we do something immoral, what we are referring to is, something which intentionally or sometimes unintentionally harms the welfare level of another person. That is, if I was happy and had 10 points of welfare, you would be doing me harm by punching me and subtracting five points. But nonexistent people do NOT have a welfare level at all, nor do they have neutral welfare. It is not as though a nonexistent person is in a state of ignorant bliss, or is set at 0 points--and being brought into a life of suffering will send him into having -10 welfare. He has no welfare to start out, and doesn't gain any welfare until he is born and has a conscious experience (or, at least, from the moment of conception). Only then does he have experiences which can be harmed or benefited--and before that, one cannot do "harm" to a nonexistent person by giving them existence.

Read a philosophy textbook for once in your life.

>>39301470
>Why do people think it's okay to have children?

So that humanity can continue to exist, you stupid fuck.

And if you don't think humanity should continue to exist, you're the one missing logic here.

>>39304570
Lmao

place largo

>>39304332
But if they were never born, their welfare could never dip below 0 because they cannot experience anything that would cause a dip.

That being said, you know (as a thinking individual) that if you create something, it will experience things. With that in mind, you have to say "yes, I realise that this thing I am creating may be unhappy and I am fine with that," OR "lol yolo fgts"

>>39304570
>implying humanity's survival is the goal of logic
This thread just gets weirder and weirder

>>39304816
We can't practice logic if we don't exist, anon.

>>39302516
The catch is, everyone thinks of themselves as smart and moral, and everyone else around them as dumb and immoral.

>>39304570
Do you make children solely because "humanity can continue to exist"

Does anyone actually do that?

>>39304869
be subject of the king
be peasant
oh im sure i know better than the king himself!

said no one ever

who cares if retards have children, not my problem, my children will be the core

>>39304842
logic exists independent of being practiced

>>39304955
Prove it.

Banksia Minister

>>39304744
It also has a chance to have a positive outcome, however that is purely based on the environment and experiences it is exposed to. What anon is saying is that nonexistence is a neutral state that is neither good nor bad, just zero. That being said, the selfishness of a birth depends entirely on the context of the situation such as accidental birth, intentional birth, deceptive birth (lol the condom broke honey guess I'm pregnant) and the selfishness of the life in general depends on the child itself and how it handles positive/negative stimuli.
But I'm sure we can all agree choices to create life by "lol yolo fgts" are always detestable since they are actual animals instead of humans. Considering the state of the world today there are substantially less chances to be happy, but there is also a strong chance that things could change in the future to be more or even less positive. I'm very certain that as far as typical human relations go there's barely any thought put into it due to everyone flying by the seat of their pants, so they don't have time to consider that maybe bringing a kid into this world isn't a wise idea. There is also the absolute uncertainty of the future, since humans are not seers, so even with positive circumstances there is a chance of a negative life.
If we want to be reductive, life is a mess and nobody has proper time to think about the risks involved, and by the time we come up with an answer it'll be way too late. One more reason to detest and excuse our stupidity, I suppose.

>>39304937
That's what all parents say to themselves. You are not different.

If you're one of those obsessive parents who wish to impose their own worldview on their kids then they'll probably rebel and hate you when they're older.

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>>39301470
You're a dumb dumbie dumb dumb and don't realize you were made with love less you were a rape baby big baby pudding piling chair breaking tooshie outta hear and make like a fucking tree

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I am a violent criminal, but I am also a somewhat loving father to my 2 children. A boy and girl

I want my son to take a life by the time he's 16. I'll physically abuse him if he turns out to be a pussy

>>39304896
Would be an interesting conversation to hear between a couple who wants kids desu.

>>39305010
It's sort of like god; you can't prove or disprove it. However; if you think Socrates just sat down one day and was like, "I'm going to make shit up" then logic can be created willy-nilly. He, and all philosophers/logicians work within the bounds of a vague concept known as "logic" that people throughout time have come to recognise.

>>39305044
I'll admit that things could go "well." If you honestly think your offspring will enjoy life and have a decent chance, then I can't stop you. I can't stop you either way. I just hate seeing so much suffering. For what? I guess depression does that. It's immoral for me, I can tell you that

>>39305588
I don't think many people like seeing others suffer, even normies get angry. I also think that there are plenty of unfit parents in the world, single or paired. Pretty sure my mom and dad were unfit due to the neglect and outright mockery. I hate it just as much, and I can understand the envy for successful people. Especially the arrogant successful people.

>>39305204
>I want my son to take a life by the time he's 16. I'll physically abuse him if he turns out to be a pussy
Guess you are a lunatic.

>>39305204
Don't you fucking pussy out of it you sip beast you better shove that whole jar up that pussy ballerina faggot's ass if he so much doesn't take a life and fully insert himself into his prey to establish dominance as THEE APEX predator slowly pumping with his BIG GUY BANANA HAMMOCK giving him the HOT BEEF INJECTION to allow that fucking bambi bitch feel every vein THROBBING an ENLARGING until he finally leaves his white veil of death fucking niggerfaggots.

>>39305204
What crimes did you commit, and why do you browse 4chan?

>>39301470
Yeah, and I don't understand why it is unethical to encourage poor or disabled people to sterilize themselves. I don't mean forced sterilization but providing incentives, for instance money and education, if they don't have any more children. Those who say it is racist or unethical only consider the needs of the parent. Like it is only parent's god given right to have children because he or she feels so, not considering the rights of the child. At least discussion of sterilization should include the rights of a child, not just the adult who feels like it.

>>39302516
Holy fuck this pathetic "reason". I have heard it way too many times. Everyone dies, so if the world is full of "smart, moral people" or "dumb, imoral people" doesn't matter. Regardless of this and regardless of your input, impact will be minimal on the large scale.

And even then. Bringing a handful of "smart, moral" humans into existence in a worldful of brain-dead morons. This is the equivalent of pissing in the ocean. It's way too diluted to even notice it.

I just don't want children because I'll likely always be a poorfag wagecuck with no life or redeeming qualities. I don't want to bring a child into an atmosphere like that, especially since my older brother's the same with me except he has three kids already and another on the way.

>>39301470
>assuming xe would want to be the gender xe was born as
You sound just like an SJW with that logic. If you want your kid to be happy about life, then RAISE him to be happy about life. Don't assume that just because your parents were shitty that you're going to be a shitty parent too. You have the advantage in actuality, you know how NOT to be shitty as a parent, because you know what bad parenting is like.

But given your skewed sense of reality, maybe you shouldn't have kids after all. Your ignorant nihilism worries me.

>>39304570
Why is the continuation of human life logical or even important?

>>39307635
It is if you think human life holds value.

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I had a fear since I was little, I forced myself to learn this and that and do various things because "I'll have to be a parent one day and will have to do it for my child" until realised I do not have to. I do not have get a job with good income for my non-existing children, I have to do it for myself. I don't have to learn that to teach my children about it, I have to learn that for myself and so on. Basically everything resumes to self.

Now, everyone is told by their parents, teachers or any kind of people that they will have children. It's not encouranging them to have children (unless they reached a certain age and family starts to get anxious about it), they just take it for granted. "You will have children", "Prepare for your life with children", "When you'll have children you'll [...]".

Out of 3 cousins, 1 is married with two children and 2 are middle-aged and unmarried. Of course, being 30+ and not having a wife and children caused a stir in our family. Now I don't know if my cousins are anti-natalists, losers or just didn't have their time yet, but I've often been told "doesn't matter, probably you'll have children way earlier than them and carry on our family". Needless to say, when I presented my views and said I'm an antinatalist, it really just went to shit.

>What? You're bullshitting, you're have kids eventually.
>Why wouldn't you want kids??
>But everyone has kids, what's the meaning of living if you don't procreate?
>You'll change your mind eventually
>Instead of perpetuating your good genes and bringing smart people in this world, you'll let the dumb ones rule it? (sounds familiar by the way?)

So it's very clear. While they should care less if I as an individual have or not children, by saying I don't want to I challanged their worldview and they seeked to validate it by forcing it into me.
Same goes with most people who say they want children, deep down they just want to validate a worldview implanted in them.

>>39307739
And this is an acceptable reason for bringing new people into existence and continuing the chain of suffering?

>>39307858
If human life was completely worthless and only caused misery and suffering, it would be wrong to continue it. If you however think that the good in human life outweigh the bad, then it would be moral to continue it.

>>39307904
>only caused misery and suffering
I'm assuming you meant "consisted of"
>If you however think that the good in human life outweigh the bad, then it would be moral to continue it
The thing is, who could reliably argue this point? I figure it can be widely agreed by anyone who stops and thinks for a moment that, no matter how good one feels one's life is and how grateful one is for what one has, life in general is many more parts suffering than happiness, and happiness is in itself only the absence of suffering. If one does not exist and thus cannot experience a good thing, be that happiness or satisfaction or duty or whatever, then there is no harm in it. If one exists and thus one necessarily experiences suffering as a consequence, which is widely agreed to be a bad thing, then there is harm in it.

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