NDEs are evidence of life after death. http://www.horizonre

A few problems with this:

-It's possible the experience happens right before of after the person wakes up. There is no actual evidence the experience happens when current machines say there is no brain activity.
Or even that current machinery cannot detect some neural activity responsible for the NDE experience.

-A recurrent component of an NDE is what is called an OBE (out-of-body experience), and OBEs have been studied and largely demystified. They are probably the result of multi-sensory disintegration in the Temporo-Parietal Junction (TPJ). It has been at least partially induced by inhibiting this area in a patient undergoing epilepsy surgery, by using subdural electrodes directly on his brain. You can check out Blanke and collegues papers on the topic.

-NDEs are not always pleasant. A portion of patients who have an NDE experience a terrifying version of it, with either the feeling of being in empty space, or similar component of the NDE experience (life review, OBE, the tunnel) but with nightmarish visions.
There is no specific difference in background, past life experiences between the patients who have a positive NDE with a negative NDE, is not like the ones who have a negative NDE are criminals who are "going to hell" or whatever.
So if an NDE is temporarily experiencing the afterlife, then why is it that there are different categories of the experience, some negative some positive, that happen regardless of the patient's past, etc.

>>38871399

HMmmmmmasd q33qqwfsd

>>38872607
not an argument?

what do you actually have to say about it?

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>>38871399

>It's possible the experience

You didn't read the study I provided, as they explicitly addressed and refuted this argument. These ADEs are definitely occurring during flatlining, as there is no way for the brain to generate electrochemical activity 3 minutes into a cardiac arrest, which they timed at least one of the NDEs to occur during (see the verified account of veridical perception).

>Or even that current machinery

Even IF that was the case - for which there is no evidence - it would be very minimal activity, which would come nowhere close to explaining the ultralucid experience of an NDE, that is reported to contain a cognition of a heightened level we can't even imagine here. How do you explain as complex a phenomena as the life review with an inactive brainstem, for instance?

>A recurrent component of an NDE is what is called an OBE

On the contrary, this study proves that OBEs occur during CA and that they can obtain information during them that should be impossible, under the explanatory model that the brain is exclusively responsible for generating consciousness and mediating all experiences.

>Blanke

Keep in mind that the term "OBE" really is an umbrella-term for a whole host of very different experiences. You can have an OBE during dreams, hallucinations, drugs, electrical stimulation, death, meditation, fainting, etc. However, these OBEs are still very different experiences phenomenologically speaking, depending on the context in which they are occurring.

For instance, only OBEs during NDEs are veridical.

>So if an NDE is temporarily experiencing the afterlife

Negative NDEs usually turn positive - see for instance Howard Storm: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/howard-storm.html

Those that don't turn positive are almost always very short or shallow NDEs, so they don't get enough time to turn positive.

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>>38870261
GOD FUCKING DAMNIT
I HATE LIFE AFTER DEATH
I'D RATHER BE DECOMPOSED UNTIL NOTHINGNESS THEN BEING PUT INTO THIS STUPID ASS ANIMAL CIRCLEJERK WITH OTHER STUPID ASS ANIMALS IN COMPETITION TO GET MORE PUSSY OR COLLECTING THE MEANS OF GETTING PUSSY SUCH AS MONEY ARE
FUCK YOU NEW AGE, FUCK YOU CHRISTIANS, AND FUCK YOU GOD
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

I guess I got yo heaven every time I sleep.

>>38870261
My grandfather had a massive heart attack and was dead for like 3 minutes or something. It was a miracle, but he was revived and wasn't brain dead either. He's a little dimmer in the head, but he was never too smart anyway.

The point is, he told me what he saw when he died: nothing. He always was a hardcore christian, but after being dead so long and not even experiencing anything, he is terrified of death. I don't think he believes in anything anymore, but my grandmother does, so he acts like he believes. There isn't any afterlife, any NDE experiencer is just a liar.

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>>38874615

This isn't news - only 9-18% of all CAs come back with NDEs, and only about 40% have any memory whatsoever.

Why this is the case, we don't know. But one major theory is that the memory circuits take a toll during the cardiac arrest, for one reason or another.

This, however, does not negate the fact that 9-18% DO have an unexplainable NDE during CA.

>>38874747
Did I mention he has had 5 heart attacks and a stroke? Still nothing. Give up your fantasy.

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>>38871399
NDEs are fake
its people faking, mentally ill people faking, or people dreaming and faking it
You can't just write memories of a NDE onto your brain, same as how your brain isn't developed enough when you are still in your mom's womb so you cant register memories.

da hells wrong with people, when u die thers literally nothing, no matter how much u want 2. most ppl that r into NDE are scared of death but just accept it fgt, or not, ur gona die anyway and never wake up. just like b4 u wer born

>>38870261
If you're still around to talk about it though, did you really die?

>>38870261
NDEs aren't evidence of anything because there's no way to prove they actually happened. Remember the kid who got btfo by a garage door or whatever and said he met Jesus, making it more and more complex until the family finally admitted it was fake? I've seen both demonic figures and angels during sleep paralysis, that doesn't mean they're real.

>>38874357
There is no competition in the heavens my misguided soul. You will experience nothing but eternal peace, something your flesh vessel cannot truly comprehend.

>>38874979
Yeah, we get to eternally singing praises to glorious Y*HW*H. What a fucking reward for depriving ourselves of all earthly pleasures.

>>38874852
You're delusional m8

>>38874966
Yes and genius savants don't exist because of that one kid who pretended to be one but wasnt

>>38874966
I only had sp once but when it happened I tried to sit up and sort of "fell" out of my body into an OBE. Was spoopy shat but pretty comfy at the same time in hindsight.

>>38870261
NDEs are what happens when your brain gets starved of oxygen and poops itself. I drowned in freezing water and experienced the whole peace and tranquility thing, doesn't mean I actually went to heaven.

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>>38874772

So you are saying that tens of millions of people are lying because your grandpa didn't experience anything?

That's quite the conspiracy!

>>38874966

There are tens of millions of NDEs, and one lied about having one. Therefore... what?

There are plenty of liars in the general population. What does this has to do with NDEs, though? People have faked being in love, too. Does this mean there are no people who have been in love?

And finally, sleep paralysis is a very different experience from NDEs. What do you know, not every anomalous experience is identical!

>>38874888

The clinical definition of death:

No heartbeat
No breathing
No brainstem reflex.

During cardiac arrest, you have all three conditions met. So yes, they were certifiably dead.

Don't like that definition? Take it up with the medical profession and science in general, because that's how death is defined right now.

>>38875212

Here's the thing: NDEs happen without oxygen starvation, and you have cases of oxygen starvation without accompanying NDEs.

Therefore, oxygen starvation is neither sufficient nor necessary for having an NDE, and thus has nothing to do with causing the experience.

>>38874979
agree with this.

oreganoli

>>38870261
They're actually evidence of your brain making shit up, as it has done all of its life.
Your life is nothing but a bunch of chemicals reacting with each other, and it will end as soon as those chemicals do.

>>38876116
> Despite its frequent use, the term "clinical death" doesn't actually have a consistent meaning, said Dr. James Bernat, a neurologist at Dartmouth College's Geisel School of Medicine in New Hampshire. In most hospitals, the doctor in charge of a patient's care makes the death determination, and there aren't universal guidelines for when to make that call, he said.

>"You're dead when a doctor says you're dead," Bernat told Live Science.

People who have NDEs never died.

>>38876116
Clinical and brain death are two entirely separate things. When your heart stops beating you are clinically dead but your brain is still at least partially alive and functioning. Actual brain death is impossible to recover from. Nobody in history has ever actually died, as in brain completely fucking gone died and come back to tell everyone what it was like because that isn't how the brain operates. You go into shock or get your oxygen cut off and you hallucinate. It's the exact same thing as starvation and dehydration, you see things that aren't really there including angelic figures or even some sort of heaven itself sometimes.

>>38874235
Ok, I've read the whole study and it doesn't provide "proof" that NDEs are actually the patients going to the afterlife.

The paper only shows that as >>38876207 pointed out, it is difficult to really establish clinical death, and some consciousness may be remaining when current tools tells us that there shouldn't be any.

In fact, the paper mentions the fact that signs of consciousness are shown in other conditions whether we would not expect them, but when the patient is not under cardiac arrest:

"The finding that conscious awareness may be present during CA is intriguing and supports other recent studies that have indicated consciousness may be present in patients despite clinically undetectable consciousness. For instance, implicit learning with the absence of explicit recall has been demonstrated in patients with undetectable consciousness, while others have demonstrated conscious awareness during persistent vegetative states (PVS)."

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>continuation

Also, you claim that the study proved that the OBEs were "veridical", which is not entirely true. Again, the study might have shown that consciousness was there when we would not expect them, but it did not show that people could actually saw things from a vantage point during an OBE that they could not have perceived otherwise.
The study tried to prove this, but no proof could be provided (they used shelves and put pictures of of religious symbols, figures etc.)

"1000 shelves across the participating hospitals only 22% of CA events actually took place in the critical and acute medical wards where the shelves had been installed and consequently over 78% of CA events took place in rooms without a shelf.
"
"While pre-placement of visual targets in resuscitation areas aimed at testing VA was feasible from a practical viewpoint (there were no reported adverse incidents),the observation that 78% of CA events took place in areas without shelves illustrates the challenge in objectively testing the claims ofVA in CA using our proposed methodology.
"

Basically, still no actual proof that OBE were truly veridical.

NDEs can be artificially induced on people who are not anywhere near death.

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>continuation


You say:
>"Negative NDEs usually turn positive - see for instance Howard Storm: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/howard-storm.html
Those that don't turn positive are almost always very short or shallow NDEs, so they don't get enough time to turn positive."

You just posted one anedoctal claim.
Many people who have distressing NDEs (negative NDEs) are actually quite complex and terrifying, and many of the people who have them ask themselves why that had to happen to them. Greyson and Bush talked about distressing NDEs at length.

Also, even if some negative NDE turn positive, why is that the NDE starts negative?
Shouldn't it be that you either have a positive NDE if you are a good person, and a negative NDE if you are a bad person? That clearly doesn't happen with NDEs.

Also, why is it that people from different religions see different religious figures. christians see Jesus, muslims see muhammad etc.?

>>38874235

>Even IF that was the case - for which there is no evidence - it would be very minimal activity, which would come nowhere close to explaining the ultralucid experience of an NDE, that is reported to contain a cognition of a heightened level we can't even imagine here. How do you explain as complex a phenomena as the life review with an inactive brainstem, for instance?

Research of psilocybin (magic mushrooms) has shown that REDUCED brain activity, namely in "hubs" that integrate information from various parts of the brain, was responsible for a heightened state of consciousness, which was counter-intuitive.
Similarly, some reduced, residual brain activity that is difficult to detect with our current machinery, could be responsible for some of the vivid experiences that people report during NDEs.

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>>38876207

So you're a better judge of when someone is dead than a doctor? I'm just trying to understand what you're actually saying with this.

>>38876794

>When your heart stops beating you are clinically dead but your brain is still at least partially alive and functioning. Actual brain death is impossible to recover from.

What you are missing here is the difference between a dead brain and an inactive brain.

Neither can produce consciousness. An inactive brain doesn't have any electrochemical interactions going on, by definition.

The only difference between a dead brain and an inactive one is that the cells haven't begun their permanent disintegration yet. And this line is actually fuzzier than you might think, and research is suggesting that it will get even fuzzier in the future, as we might be able to reverse the death of these cells.

>>38876909

>has shown that REDUCED brain activity, namely in "hubs" that integrate information from various parts of the brain, was responsible for a heightened state of consciousness, which was counter-intuitive.

Here is your argument:

Less brain activity -> More consciousness.

Zero brain activity -> Zero consciousness.

Surely there's an inconsistency in the pattern there.

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>>38876830

Great I want to have one daily and bathe in that infinitely orgasmic light nonstop. Where do I have them?

Man, someone who could produce that would be instantly a trillionaire. Who wouldn't pay good for something that's 10^10000000 times better than heroin and ecstasy combined?

>>38870261
Just smoke DMT.

Boom you'll have NDE

>>38877336
Make yourself pass out. Some people can get nde's some can't no matter what. I had one when I locked my legs and smashed my head on a table on the way down. Thought I was in some oasis and felt fucking amazing until I woke up in a hospital bed with a migraine.

>>38874852
Why the fuck do you talk like that? It makes you sound like a fucking idiot

>>38877284
Lowered brain activity is a very well known cause of vivid hallucinations. Everything from oxygen deprivation to shock to plain frying in the fucking desert will all induce hallucinations.

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>>38876798

>"proof"

"Proof"? No, but evidence: http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/GrossmanLetter.pdf (Third fallacy he mentions on page 232).

>>38876821

>but it did not show that people could actually saw things from a vantage point during an OBE that they could not have perceived otherwise.

Except the verified OBE that saw things during his CA that he should not have been able to observe. Did you read the finer details of what he observed? Those aren't things you just randomly guess correctly, not even once in a quadrillion.

>>38876846

>You just posted one anedoctal claim.

You mean like how you posted one "anecdotal" study participant via the Blanke stuff? Yeah, go figure. I was trying to illustrate a larger point of how negative NDEs tend to turn around after a while, not use it as a source for evidence in itself that this always happen.

>Many people who have distressing

I don't deny this, I'm not sure why you bring this up. It doesn't negate what I've already said - go far enough into the experience, and it turns around.

>Also, even if some negative NDE turn positive, why is that the NDE starts negative?

I don't know, I don't claim to have all the answers. Some NDErs when asked this say that "You get what you need." But again, I don't claim to understand the afterlife perfectly.

>Shouldn't it be that you either have a positive NDE if you are a good person, and a negative NDE if you are a bad person? That clearly doesn't happen with NDEs.

I don't know about the whole idea of applying our contemporary understanding of morality, Earth 2017, to an eternal realm of divine perfection is such a reasonable idea. Surely they're a bit more evolved in their thinking and reasoning, and what goes on might be a bit more complex than our stoneage minds will have as our first thought?

>different figures

Interpretations based on prior experience and expectations. When pressed, they tend to say "being of light, interpreted it as jesus", etc.

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>>38877350

I've done DMT and it is amazing beyond words, but it's nothing like an NDE.

>>38877480

I've done that too. As cool as an experience it was, it's still nothing compared to most drugs, and definitely nothing compared to an NDE.

Again, not all anomalous experiences are the same, and the qualitative, phenomenological difference is tremendous.

Have you listened to what NDErs say about the difference between the NDE and earthly pleasures? Take a look, beginning at 3:22

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-GHrsSqcNw

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>>38877617

We're not talking about vivid hallucinations, but of an expanded consciousness. Take a look at the life review of an NDE, and how that is reasonably occurring when the brain is effectively inactive.

>>38877940
Now you're just completely pulling this out of your ass.

>>38870261
You're retarded.

No one cares

kys

I've actually had a NDE (drowning).

I don't get why you people assume dumb shit and then try and play it off as fact.

>>38878688
elaborate

originale commento

>>38878743
what do you want to know?

origami.

>>38870261
>If you had an NDE and entered that infinitely amazing light of love, acceptance and wisdom...

Do people have NDEs where they *don't* have a happy happy tunnel of light, peace, acceptance, and wisdom?

>>38879501

Nvr mind, should've read the first fucking reply before posting.

>>38871399
This was a very cool reply, thanks...lot to look up.

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>>38879501

All NDEs varies to some extent, but there are those "core elements" to an NDE.

But yes, there are plenty of shallow NDEs where what you're referring to doesn't happen.

>>38878023

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_review

>>38871399
>OBEs have been studied and largely demystified. They are probably the result of multi-sensory disintegration in the Temporo-Parietal Junction (TPJ). It has been at least partially induced by inhibiting this area in a patient undergoing epilepsy surgery
And how does this disprove it? You can stimulate hunger in a person that isn't hungry, doesn't mean you can live without eating. Of course if the function is real it could be induced. This sort of thing is just materialistic desperation, bargaining with what you can't categorise because it makes you shit your pants..

>>38871399
>some negative some positive, that happen regardless of the patient's past, etc.
And who fucking says it's regardless of their past? They do, being a criminal doesn't make one bad any more than not being one makes one good. Find multiple child molesters who've experienced Heaven and you can say there's no connection between their past. Every night Hitler suffered horrendous night terrors where he would leap from his bed and point into the corner screaming 'It's them they've come for me' but when William Blake died everyone felt a wave of happiness and peace come over them as he faded while describing the beautiful land he could see beyond a river as his deceased family came towards him. Maybe there's some connection beyond coincidence as to why each didn't have the other's experience instead.

>>38880954
>Hitler's night terrors
I tried Google but found nothing, you have a source?

Also it's probably because Blake was surrounded by friends and family while Hitler was wanted dead by German rebels, German surbordinates, the English, the Russians, the French... I'd have nightmares too.