Why would you pay the wages of another man's employees

because it's a social norm (in America) and you're expected to follow social norms.

>>38745929
Why are americans so cucked?

well you pay them by purchasing goods from them as well so it's not that crazy of a concept

>>38745929
Hmmm, I wonder (((who))) is behind this jewery...

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>>38745929

So people who tip are normies? Who would have thought.

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>>38745916
because dumb college dropouts took a job for $2.50/hr and now rely on our pocket change to buy the devil's lettuce

>>38745916
I wouldn't, it's not expected where I live because I don't live in a backwards country.

>>38745929
>feeling the need to conform to social norms

low iq

>>38745952
If they dont do it, the illegals will take those jobs

>>38745952
But they get paid minimum wage, don't fall for server propaganda

Um, maybe because it is a basic human right to be paid a fair wage for fair work? Most waiters do not receive fair, livable wages so why not be a good person and split the difference? You would just get charged for food more anyways if the restaurant had to pay them more.

>>38745916
why do people pay for nigger's healthcare and welfare

>>38746032
Because it guarantees that the public utilities that you want are available

>>38746013
All servers must make at least minimum wage. If they are not, their employer committing wage theft. We have many protections for employees who whistleblow against wage theft.

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>>38745916
>tfw I always order carry outs so I don't have to tip the normies

>>38746013

If an employer is paying their employees so poorly, why would you even go to this employers' establishment??

The tipping system seems degrading - both to the employee and customer.

Tips are only valuable if given freely under no social pressure AFTER the employees reasonable wages.

>>38745916
Why do autists care so much? If tipping wasn't a thing food would just be more expensive to cover wages. You know who doesn't tip? Niggers.

>>38746012
>they get paid minimum wage, don't fall for server propaganda
Teenagers need to get the fuck off my board.

>>38746071
>I'm so flamboyantly underage I don't know what a "tipping wage" is
Hang yourself.

>>38746575
>>38746548
Are you idiots? An employer MUST make up the difference if an employee's tipping wage + tips does not meet minimum wage. All servers are legally required to make minimum wage. If they are not, their employer is breaking the law.

>>38745916
Tipping is brilliant. It's the only thing keeping service good.

Think about it... Only trashy poor people serve food. Imagine how much of an epidemic it would be to get spit in your pasta if tipping wasn't around. It would happen all the time.

>>38746615
the point of having a serving job is to try and make more than min wage you fuckwit. A lot more menial jobs are paid more than min wage in America today.

>>38746746
If they want to make more than minimum wage, they can get a better job. It's not my job to pay them

>>38746763
If they gave you good service, then by that logic you have an obligation to pay them, just like any exchange of goods and services. The employer of the server only provides the product you bought. Unless you answer your own questions, get your own drinks, take your own order, run your own food, and make polite conversation with yourself every time you go out to eat, you have an obligation to at least give 10%, unless they were really slow. The 2.15 an hour they are paid is meant to cover taxes, rarely do they ever see a cent of their hourly wage.

>>38746936
I have no obligation to pay them whatsoever. The prices dictated on the menu account for both a good and a service. I do not tip at the grocery store because they stocked the shelves, I do not tip at a car dealership because they washed the car before they sold it to me, and I do not tip at a restaurant because a server brought me my food.

>>38746997
you do realize you are not being edgy, or non-conforming if you don't tip. You are simply being a degenerate. It's quite funny how the three main demographics that do not tip are (in my experience)Man children, Niggers and teenagers.

>>38747123
I'm being degenerate by not supporting poor business practices? All you can do is shame and name call without providing any substantial argument for paying the wages of a business that you do not own.

>>38746997
If everyone went by your logic, then restaurants would have to increase either their prices or lower the quality of goods to account for it. That means less customers. Better yet, why would you even go out for food when you can buy groceries like you said you fucking jew

>>38747123
>waah, a degenerate on /r9k/ for not defending a stupid practice that puts the employees payment directly on the customer instead of on the employer as it is in every other profession

>>38747217
> then restaurants would have to increase either their prices
What does it matter if I, paying extra anyway? Increase the prices so the servers wage is included and get rid of this stupid mandatory tipping bullshit.

>>38747217
I can do both. It would be better for restaurants to pay their employees and adjust their prices accordingly just like every other business out there.

>>38747160
Because people are willing to take the job for that much money, dumbass, nobody's forcing them to have that job, but it's better than nothing and the ones who want more money are the ones that are giving great service, which is why people pay them, because they are going above what the job is paying them for. If you don't understand that you're probably a psychopath

>>38747290
When they take these jobs, they know that it's possible there will not be a tip, right?

>>38747160
>I'm being degenerate by not supporting poor business practices

In what world is tipping a bad business practice. It eliminates the need to pay a large portion of your staff a wage, while creating healthy competition and a motivation for servers to be good at their jobs.

>substantial argument for paying the wages of a business that you do not own
In essence though, for the small time you are served, you are figuratively their employer. And the menu price does not cover the cost of wages, otherwise there would be no need for tipping. If the cost of the product itself could actually pay for the labor and supply cost, there would be no need for tipping.

>>38745929
>land of the free
>but follow inane social norms please

You guys in America who have never been abroad should know that other countries don't have tipping and the service is no worse.

>>38747313
yes. if their shit at their job.

you're never not paying the wages of an employee. no business can function without having the wages of an employee built into its business plan.

tipping is just a tradition that westerners continue to advance. is it logical? maybe not. and if you want to resist against that system, then boycotting is an effective means.

but it's only effective if you can advance the movement. that means giving a shit about the cause and working hard to bring people to your cause. otherwise you're just being an asshole if you do it independently, in a vacuum.

so the real question to ask you might be: is this issue important enough to warrant you giving this much of a shit about it?

i don't have the answer. an affirmative or a negative response are really both valid i think.

>>38747373
If they're especially good at filling up my glass of water and carrying plates then the employer should give them a raise. If they're bad, they can be fired. It's not a high skill job or anything. Plenty of waiters out there.

>>38747253
>>waah, a degenerate on /r9k/ for not defending a stupid practice that puts the employees payment directly on the customer instead of on the employer as it is in every other profession
Its not a stupid practice though. And the only reason I bring up who doesn't tip is because ,for the most part, these people lack mental maturity, which i find an amusing pattern

>>38747337
>In essence though, for the small time you are served, you are figuratively their employer
This is complete nonsense and no other service industry does this. Do you tip retail employees when they help you find an item in their store? Motivating employees through fear of wage theft and motivating customers to tip through fear of tainted food and poor service will never be a good business practice. If an employee does exceptional work, it is the job of the employer to compensate them so that they will continue that work.

>>38747404
I think you missed my point. The employer most of the time cannot not afford to give them a raise, therefore, the server must work towards pleasing the customer, and in turn getting a higher tip

>>38747390
In america tips are literally counted as part of servers wages, so the business only actually pays them 3-5 dollars an hour

>>38747473
If the employer has no means to motivate his employees, he is a bad businessman. It's not the customer's job to make up for an employer's bad business sense. One of the key concepts they teach you in any management or small business class is employee satisfaction. If you can't craft a business plan that includes employee satisfaction, you shouldn't run a business.

>>38747390
>but it's only effective if you can advance the movement
It's in my individual interest that the movement not advance so I can continue getting away with paying less than I would be if servers were paid normal wages.

To those who tip: thanks for subsidizing my meals.

>>38745916
You can pay the wages yourself and reward better service with better pay. Or you can pay the wages indirectly by paying more for your dinner and have zero say in the situation. Abuse the system and eventually the loser will be you.

>>38747429
> no other service industry does this
Hair dressers, hotels, event planning services and catering, taxis, valet services. I can go on

>>38747514
yeah i'm american i know how it works. i also know that when you buy a burger at mcdonalds that some accountant somewhere (or an algorithm) decided that the X amount of percent of a sale (probably somewhere in the thousands place here) would be committed toward paying a burger flipper's wage. that has nothing to do with tipping.

you're paying workers either way, tip or no.

>>38747553
In what world do you live in where you tip at the hotel or at catering? Do you tip the mailman too?

>>38747533
so really youre just a cheap little shit

>>38747585
it is usually expected to tip the people who clean up after you in a hotel

>>38747614
I live in New York and travel frequently for my job. No one I've ever worked with tips the maids. The only time people tip taxis are when they don't have change.

Look at all of these people who would rather live in a world where they couldn't pay directly for the service that they received based on its quality, but would rather just get charged higher prices so that every worthless waiter got the same pay.

How did you people get fooled this badly? The end of tipping means higher menu prices. You are arguing for a middle man between you and the people whose services your contracting. You are arguing for a layer of bureaucracy. You are arguing for less control of how you dispose of your money. You are arguing for higher wages for poor performing employees. How little confidence do you have to have in yourself to think some manager knows better than you how much the service your received was worth?

>>38745955
Tipping is moron system but you're an asshole if you dont

>>38747698
>ow little confidence do you have to have in yourself to think some manager knows better than you how much the service your received was worth?
So you're an idiot for buying any good ever. Every good requires some sort of human labor, which is factored into the cost by some manager. Your logic is foolish

The only time I tip is when I want to get rid of loose change. I keep quarters though

>>38747757
I'm well aware of what you're saying. I just don't relish the thought of giving up even MORE of a say in how I spend my money. I thought that was pretty clear. I'm not sure why you extended what I said to that kind of binary logic.

Do you have any kind of refutation of anything that I said? Do you have any positive argument to explain why losing some autonomy in the prices that I pay helps me in any way?

>>38747698
Higher menu prices are much better than good service being held hostage by how much I payed during my last visit. If a poor employee got no tips, he would be paid the same wage in a tip and not tip situation. The non tip situation would make the employer much more likely to remove the poor performer as their payment is not being subsided by a good employee's low tip wage.

>>38747929
This is some truly warped logic. What are you saying exactly? The waiter performed poorly. He got tipped badly. So you're afraid that next time he's going to perform poorly again? How exactly would this be improved in a situation where he performed poorly and then was paid highly?

In any case it's ancillary the the larger point. If you want to pay him highly, regardless of service, under the tipping system you are free to do so. You are advocating for a scenario where you no longer have a say in the matter. Why do you want less of a say in how you spend your money?

>>38747929
To add even more to this: why is the poorly performing employee more likely to be fired in a non tipping system? He costs the same as a good employee. Under the tipping system he costs more. The manager has to make up the difference between his meager tips and the minimum wage. He's more likely to be fired under the tipping system because the manage feels directly the costs of his poor performance.

>>38747987
>>38748025
You seemed to have completely missed my point. If I don't tip a poor performer and they get no tips whatsoever, they get paid minimum wage. If there were no tips, they still get paid minimum wage. There's no higher payment under a non tipping system. Under tipping system, the costs of wages fluctuates and the low pay of good performers offsets the high pay of low performers. This leads lower scrutiny on employee behavior as even with poor employees, the wage costs are below average. Paying everyone minimum wage puts a higher cost on wages and therefore requires much higher scrutiny on employee behavior.

Now to address my initial point. Let's say I do not tip a poor performer. They now go and tell all of their coworkers that I do not tip. Now the quality of my service is impacted on future visits regardless if I tip or not. Going even further, , your quality of service will fluctuate even further based off of initial prejudice that the server has regarding your tipping habits. Removing tipping brings stability to the quality of service. The stability of service is worth more than the increase in costs of food.

>>38748282
Let me try to describe this with an example because you're just not getting it.

Let's say I have 6 employees. The minimum wage is $5 an hour and I pay them $2.50 an hour. Two of these employees are high performing and they make $10 an hour after they get tips. They cost me a total of $2.50 an hour. Two of these employees are medium performing and they get $5 an hour after they get tips. They cost me a total of $2.50 an hour. Two of these employees are low performing. They get zero tips. Consequently they cost me $5 an hour.

With regard to your initial point, again, nothing is stopping you from tipping high out of fear. The tipping system preserves your total freedom to pay whatever you'd like. What you're arguing for is to lose that freedom. That's nuts.

>>38745916
>Fack No

>>38745929
YES GOYIM IF YOU DON'T COVER MY EMPLOYEE COSTS I'LL HAVE THEM SPIT ALL OVER YOUR FOOD

>>38745929
fucking cuck if you ever go bankrupt just remember all the thousands of dollars you wasted away tipping 18 year olds who bring food to you

>>38748409
You're looking at too narrow a scope. When wages become variable, the average dictates action or inaction in an owner. In your example, the the total wage cost per hour is $20, this is well below the minimum wage payment of $30 per hour. Each person on average is being paid $3.33 an hour. In this case, it would require more poor performers before the average wage per person increases to a level where intervention is seen as cost effective. The low pay of high workers allows the owner to overlook poor performers as long as they are within certain parameters. Under normal wages, the cost is fixed, requiring an owner to pay attention to the individual.


Back to my initial point, you seem to be bashing the very concept of government and civilization. We give up personal freedoms for stability in our lives. Give up freedoms in the form of following laws and paying taxes for the stability that comes with living in a country rather than living in the wild. Giving up the freedom to help someone make more than minimum wage is well worth the stability in the quality of service. There's nothing nuts about it.

>>38745916
Instead of being actually deep, youre overthinking a cultural custom and screwing over blue collar workers. Youre not deep youre just an asshole and i feel no sympathy for the fact youll die a virgin

>>38745944
Jews arent benefiting though...people that decided 40k in student loans wasnt worth it are...lol. Serving is lowkey "redpilled"
>>38745950
People that arent sociopaths**

>>38745916

because in some states wait staff get dicked with sub-minimum wage. in Texas it's $3/hour

I'd be totally fine if places paid their employees more and raised the prices a couple of bucks. it'd probably save me money in the long run from tipping anyways

>>38748720
This is getting silly. If you think that that's how restaurants operate let me give you some business advice: go open a restaurant and pay attention to how much each employee costs you. If every other restaurant is apparently too stupid or too lazy to analyze labor costs in terms of anything other than averages, then I guarantee that you can really make some savings here that they're missing. Here's a starting point, if you ever need to downsize and lay people off, start with the employees whose wages you have to top up every month. You'll do much better than the other restaurants which I assume must just pick employees at random in these scenarios.

Who is harmed by me giving a low tip to a bad employee? In the scenario you kept describing it was me. The point is that I'm supposed to fear some retaliation. I'm happy taking the risk. Retaining the freedom to decide what risks we are willing to impose upon ourselves has nothing to do with society. It's my freedom to dispose of my income as I'd like insofar as it affects me.

>>38748878

different guy, but for me it's tipping is such a weird concept when you compare it to other non-tipping professions that offer a service, such as a helpdesk

the only tip you can ever give those people (and I was one of them in my mid 20's) is that they're shit

I dunno I try not to think about it too hard since it's not my livelihood

>>38748878
Ignoring both opportunity cost and turnover costs and merely looking at employee cost is a good way to put yourself out of business. Even at a low level job like a server, turnover costs can make or break you. Once again, your view is too narrow. You say that when you downsize, you would remove the poor performers because of their higher wages. This is true. The point I was making is that because of the overall lower wages, you would not look to downsize until there was a much larger shift in employee quality compared to a non tipping situation. The overall lower costs means that when analyzing your business,you would look to make changes elsewhere before you would resort to changing your labor force. This leads to lower quality employees being employed longer than their non tipped counterparts.

>Retaining the freedom to decide what risks we are willing to impose upon ourselves has nothing to do with society.
That actually has everything to do with society. Society operates under the assumption that you are willing to give up choices and freedoms in exchange for safety and stability. To get back to the point, when I go to a restaurant, I expect stability in the quality of the food. That's the reason people go to restaurants in the first place. I don't find it odd that people like myself would expect the same stability in quality of the service. Having to gamble on quality doesn't make much sense and puts an increased burden on the consumer.

>>38749192
I'm fine continuing to discuss the broader question, but I'm going to say this with regard to the costs of poor employees and then not discuss it any more: The only one who ever suggested that some kind of cost was or should be ignored was you. If you want to try to come up with bizarre specific scenarios where an employer is indifferent to the cost of his employees be my guest. We could be here all night with you coming up with examples and me explaining why they were wrong. In general I will repeat that an employer is more sensitive to the performance of an employee when that performance affects directly the cost of that employee. When good employees are cheaper good employees will be hired. When bad employees are more expensive bad employees will be fired. I think that's self evident and I'll leave it at that.

Why do you expect the quality of the service to be variable? Maybe I take that risk by tipping poorly, but you don't have to. If you're afraid that variable tipping will result in variable performance and not the other way around then there is a simple solution. Always tip the same amount. Just leave me the choice to do something different if I so choose.

>>38748804
>Jews own capital, i.e. restaurants
>create tipping culture
>they can now pay their staff less
I wonder who's behind that post.

I'm a waiter and real talk, you shouldn't tip by default. If I bring your shit to you in a timely matter, keep your drink full and all that shit, do everything right. I don't "expect" a flat out 20% if you're there under an hour a $5 will do me I might have 4 or 5 tables all at once. Basically $5/hour in tips if the service is good is what I want from tables.

I've gotten $50+ tips from tables who I didn't have to do shit for just making conversation. Tipping by default is dumb, but going full retard and denying tipping completely is dumber.

Point is, I can make 15-20$/hr while serving. I rarely get stiffed and when I do I knew it was going to happen before it did.

>>38748720
Watch me immediately prove myself wrong about talking about the specific examples... I just need to point out that your whole dispute of my example is based on a fundamental error.

In my example the total costs paid by the manager are 2(5) + 2(2.5) + 2(2.5) = $20. As you said.

If one bad employee is fired and replaced with a good employee the total costs are 5+ 2(2.5) + 3(2.5) = 17.5. The manager is better off replacing the bad employee with the good employee. It has nothing to do with averages.

Under the no tipping system the costs with two employees of each type are 2(5) + 2(5) + (2)5 = $30.

If a bad employee is fired and replaced by a good employee the costs are now 5 + 2(5) + 3(5) = $30. The manager is indifferent to improving the quality of his workforce. (Of course there are other considerations such as repeat customers, reviews, etc... so in practice he isn't truly indifferent. These considerations are present equally in both scenarios though. They remain the same, only the direct costs change. The point is that the incentives still do change.)

>>38749419
i don't see why people have a problem leaving 1 dollar.
tipping isn't asking you for your whole paycheck and the 15% thing is just a guide, the police aren't going to shoot you because you tipped less than 15%

i think people are just cynical and look for excuses to Scrooge out with their money.

>>38745929
Lol fuck off cuck
Almost all of American history is about breaking social norms

>>38747217
I would much rather pay a bit extra for food than be pressured into subsidizing the weed habits of a college dropout waiter

>>38746013
>Um, maybe because it is a basic human right to be paid a fair wage for fair work?
Kek, no it's not

>>38749639
You'd rather be forced to do it than "pressured" to do it. Great.

>>38746746
>the point of having a serving job is to try and make more than min wage
No it's not. Minimum wage is what's legally required. Their wages are artificially inflated by toxic tipping culture and social pressure.

>>38749665
Yes, because then the money's going to the right place. The food is worth far more than the waiter's labor.

>>38745916
why not just close the door instead of opening it for people right behind you, this is America after all we can't have that kind of socialism bullshit

nobody owes anything to anybody unless money is involved though because America is built on capitalism and those are the rules of capitalism, so be patriotic and tip your waiter right after you apply for the draft two or three times, there aint no law against how many times you can apply for the draft

>"why don't girls like me? Im such a nice guy ;_;"
>makes this thread
Really rustles the acorns

>>38749823
t. waitress

>>38749717
How do you know what the money is going to? At least some if it is going to have to go to labor since they make less than minimum wage as it is. In practice I would expect that nearly all the increases in prices after abolishing tipping would go to replace the wages that used to be covered by tips. There's no way of knowing exactly what would happen in any given restaurant, but there's zero chance that at least a large portion of the higher prices wouldn't go straight to labor.

Under the tipping system you get to decide exactly how much you pay labor depending on what you think it's worth. Without tipping you not only don't have a say, you don't even have a remote idea of what your waiter gets paid. Sorry that you're too chickenshit not to tip when you think you've received poor service and would feel more comfortable with the manager holding your hand helping you know what to pay, but not all of us have that problem.

I honestly believe its good for society to have a few jobs anybody can do that make a living wage. What if a business owner goes out of busniess at 50? He cant just "learn a trade xD" at that age and getting a 4 year degree at that age would be insane

>>38749923
How many 50yo waiters have you met?