Does it ever blow your mind to think that everything that drives

>>37535835
Welcome to the real world. Unless you delude yourself back, you're hear to stay, and the longer you're here, the more you'll see past the deception of the old world. Politicians and wealthy individuals are only out for themselves, and will do whatever it takes to add to their wealth and power, and usually that means manipulating the masses. The normalfags that this board always complains about are simply the people that are caught in the deception of the politicians and businessmen

>>37535911
I think we all participate in the ruse, so we're all complicit.

>>37535835
Everything is based on the fundamental laws of reality, no matter what your liberal arts professor tells you.
Just because they only have names because of humans, it doesn't mean that they have no basis in reality.
Everything is not relative, there are universal laws, and existence is inherently orderly.
You might not like them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

>>37535961
I only participate in it for survival: to obtain the things essential for my life. Socially, I am completely isolated. I also do not consume media and share the same mindset as others

>>37535835
>would rather a child die of a preventable disease than violate the imaginary laws of capitalism by giving medical care without receiving ""currency"" in return.
Without an incentive no one would receive medical training, no medical supplies or equipment would be manufactured and the number of children dying of disease would increase exponentially

Science is an illusion. Basically nobody has a fucking clue what is truly going on. Sure, science may be able to give reductionist explanations of material phenomena, but it lacks any real explanatory power when it comes to the big questions: how and why. They may try to tell you they know the how and that the why is meaningless, but this is an insult to human logical faculties. We may be the smartest beings in the history of the universe so don't let them tell you that you are stupid. Or you could just continue blindly accepting everything that authority tells you.

>>37535982
>Everything is based on the fundamental laws of reality
Explain a global economy that is driven by electronic "money" and managed by software programs. A system so byzantine than no human alive can really understand how it works or why it works[1] - yet we still rely on it to make decisions about the most important parts of the lives of billions of homo sapiens on this planet.

[1] According the head of Federal reserve

>>37536066
You are blinded by neoliberal ideology.

You could narrow your profit margins and still provide for those who cannot afford medical care, and yet human life is less important than satisfying the rules of an imaginary system we call the economy.

How many tokens must a primate collect before the """rules"" decide that their life is worth more than another member of its species?

>>37535835
>None of these frameworks exist or have any basis in reality yet we value them all more than our own lives.
No less real than anything else. Anything and everything up to and including our fear of pain+death or desire for love is simply the result of hormones and electrical signals, which are themselves simply a mechanism for our genes to ensure their replication. All emotion, religion, political views and other driving forces of both behaviour and society are the ultimate expression of genes attempting to outcompete other genes. In the end they are as much a part of our being as anything else.

In that vein, why is does your desire for a random child to see another sunrise have any more basis in reality than a capitalist's desire to add another penny to his balance sheet?

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Yeah this guy's a real intellectual

>>37536246
>You could narrow your profit margins
And reduce your own life quality in the process. People aren't just following made up rules without getting anything out of it.

>>37536506
You're ignoring the losers in the system (the vast majority) who play along with the rules even though the system is set up to exploit them.

>>37535982
do you think that society as it exists today is the product of unchangeable natural law?

>>37536375
I can't say that ideology is as "real" as chemistry or physics. Ideology is so polluted by our environment, our upbringing, even shifting contexts from minute to minute, it is too inconsistent to be "real".

The more "real" a thing the more value it must have - the chemistry of life has more value than the shifting ideology of neo-liberal capitalism.

/leftypol/ you're wasting your time
just let these people languish

>>37535835
The weirdest part is when you realize we've all been killing another in massive numbers through all of history mainly because we play different "games" and don't like the other "games". Like children at a playground but with weapons.

>>37535835
>everything that drives society; religion, economics, social mores etc. is entirely constructed? None of these frameworks exist or have any basis in reality yet we value them all more than our own lives.
You need to stop studying politics and start studying linguistics and sociology. You're right on the damn verge of getting to the real meat of discussion but you swerved off hard from what you really want to know with that second paragraph. You sound like you've already made up your mind on topics you are just beginning to break into, whether you know it or not.

>>37535835
No, it doesn't blow my mind. Does it blow your mind that language is a social construct but you speak it? Something being a social construct is a meaningless observation. Some of these things are rooted in evolutionary biology anyway. Power hierarchies, social mores, in group preference etc for example.
Also, it is a little disingenuous to say that a capitalist would rather a child die since capitalists give more to charity then other societies, and conservatives give more than progressives. It is more of a matter of you voting my money away for yourself or to give to causes I don't care about. If you're feeling generous, use your own fucking money for your pet cause.

>>37536045
You don't need to browse 4chan for survival. Shut up, cucko.

>>37536663
In what way does being "real" necessitate having value. How can it when "value'" is as equally subjective as anything else? If humanity were not here to ascribe value to the universe would it not be real?

OP being a faggot is an universal law tho.

>>37536739
Please enlighten me, I would like to go deeper.
Any books/articles you can point me towards?

>>37536642
yes, it's called causality
take the determinism pill
not the OP and I think he's wrong though

>>37535835
I had this thought awhile ago. Everything we do wouldn't exist without us, sure. But the next revelation I had was that even that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what I think, what kind of universal revelation I have. People are people and do what they do. They want to believe it and that is what keeps any and all systems going.

I can only affect myself so I do what I can to stay away from the system. I just want to be left alone but they make it really difficult. That's all I know

>>37535835
is ass eating a social construct?

>>37536073
nothing can answer the how and why though, it's not for us to know, it can hardly be called a criticism of science when it applies to everything else as well.

Ahh, sounds like you're starting to wake up, OP! That's good, that's real good. And you don't even know it yet.

I have a list of books for you to read, and expand on your thoughts.

1. Das Kapital - Marx
2. Imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism - Lenin
3. Socialism: Utopian and Scientific - Engels

Happy awakening.

>>37536977
Said like a true Stalinist, in a way. Except with Neoliberalism, instead of Bolshevism.

>>37537010
Non sentient animals do it, so no.

>>37537127
Don't forget Kropotkin, comrade.

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>>37537127
> waking up
All that happens is you see how warped everyone else's ideology is and the knowledge leads you to resent everyone and isolate yourself. Aristotle was right; don't waste your life on philosophy, better to live it in ignorance.


Go back to sleep and dream like everyone else.

>>37537166
pure ideology
oregano flakes

>>37536642
Not him, but yes. I also think that there are infinitely many other universes following different paths, similar to the multiverse theory, but a tad different in that I think we're all a single consciousness experiencing all of existence over and over again, like an Ouroboros, a snake eating itself. That's what we are. We only exist because of our own will to be.

>>37537280
t. braindead neohippie

>>37536767
Everything about our entire species and civilization can be reduced down to evolutionary biology, which can be reduced down to chemistry, which can be reduced down to physics, which can be reduced down to existence and nonexistence, or a series of zeroes and ones.

>>37537053
Not true. Psychedelics and/or meditation in order to achieve altered states of consciousness can. If you ever experience it for yourself, you will come to know it as an undeniable truth.

>>37537291
Do you have any actual response to my post, or is ad hominem the best you've got?

DISH ISH PEE-OOR EYE DEE O LOW GEE

>>37537324
the ones and zeroes made me post this

>>37537127
>1. Das Kapital - Marx
>2. Imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism - Lenin
>3. Socialism: Utopian and Scientific - Engels
>Happy awakening.

A failed ideology that has never worked, but killed over a hundred million people. Nice.
>inb4 incoming no true scotsman fallacy

>>37537349
where does the truth come from?

>>37537370
it's not his responsibility to give you a proper reply. hope it's anyone going to respond to that anyway? it's too far from any kind of logical or physical basis to even argue about.

>>37535982
>existence is inherently orderly

I kekd

>>37537349
>perception is infallible meme
lmao, and here I thought you had some interesting views.

>>37537324
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
Also, deconstructionism is for plebs. Enjoy your sophomore year anon.

>>37535835
No it doesnt. Things like religion, private property, culture are due to group evolution. Societies without these simply didn't survive or didn't even form in the first place.
Sure, if you hate society you can play tactical nihilism and deconstruct all these things, but you won't invalidate them and you won't propose an alternative to them. So why do that?

>>37537370
i'm sorry, i just cannot take any post that contains the string consciousness experiencing itself seriously
and also any post that misunderstands the multiverse theory and confuses it for the many worlds interpretation of QM
both together is just too retarded to even begin with
i hope you understand

>>37537127
I really wish I had my pilots liscence for you people. I really, really did.

>>37537430
>>37537596
>reading books to gain perspective and insight is bad
plebs detected

>>37535835
Helping sick children is also a social construct. How is it any different from wanting to amass wealth?

>>37537623
>hurr durr "plebs", I saw it 4 posts before mine I'm so original.
Why not read books on astrology or crystal healing too since you value perspective on bullshit that doesn't work?

>>37537623
>communism
>"awakening"
Uh huh. Yeah. I've read a little of Mein Kampf, but I wouldn't call it "awakening". only perspective I want is your ass falling from 500ft.

>>37537660
true astrology has never been tried

>>37537673
>i haven't read the book but i know it to be false
okay then

>>37537430
Try to do the numbers on how many people capitalism has killed. From Chattel slavery to bombings for petro dollars.

i too was once 17. it was a good year

>>37537459
I'm not doubting that, I'm just saying that realizing how much our lives are influenced by ideology means we can have the power to improve it and make the system better.

Also we're facing an existential threat in climate change and maybe we should retool our culture to be better able to tackle it, or at least mitigate some of its worst effects.

>>37537700
>I'm ignoring history
>I'm ignoring human nature
>I'm ignoring basic economics
>I'm ignoring millions of dead
>I'm ignoring modern politics
>you haven't read my book that means you don't know shit

Do you really wonder why everyone hates commies, but commies? This entire ideology is 500 years too soon AT LEAST. I just. Ugh. i can't wait for this shit to pop off in the US so I can start shooting you retards with the only good thing that ever came from communism, my glorious AK.

>>37537779
>>you haven't read my book that means you don't know shit
of course

>>37537796
Christ Poe's law is strong. I really can't tell here. Either way just get in the chopper.

>>37537820
>>37537700
>true astrology has never been tried
You're a fucking moron.

>>37537779
> I haven't done any research on the subject but am sure of my opinions on it

Ah an American, I presume?

>>37537852
I mean I've met people who would straight up say that unironically.

>>37537700
>true astrology has never been tried
Ok, but what if every time people attempted "true astrology", tens of millions of people died. Every time. Wouldn't you eventually assume that either that is the actual application of "true astrology", or that it simply does not work due to human nature?

>>37537883
Sure you have, I believe you.

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>>37535835
Equality is a social construct. In truth and nature, nothing is really equal. For these reasons, lack of fixed hierarchy leads to natural hierarchy, which is cancer. Think of it like high school, where students are technically equal, but in truth there is a popularity pecking order with Chads at the top and everyone else at the bottom. In places however like boarding school military academies, such cancer does not exist, because everyone knows their place and does not try to one-up another in petty bullying and sqabbles for an implicit rank in the social hierarchy. Your respect and prospects of ranking up in the (fixed) military hierarchy thus is summed up by your character and merits. Everyone is much nicer and more cooperative in such an environment than at a high school where everyone is in an unspoken war against everyone else for dominance. So fuck your shitty egalitarian ideology that literally pushed for women's right before anyone else.

That does not mean however, that I am against wealth redistribution and liquidation of the merchant class. I'm a radical socialist too, definitely not a sterile corporatecuck, but your internationalist, materialist and culturally liberal kind is just a different side to the same coin capitalism is in.

Fuck off back to /leftypol/ where you organize your shilling and keep your Marxist cancer there. We /thirdposition/ here

>>37537779
>if you're going to shoot people over political ideas you're not much better than a muzzie. Go ahead, be a puppet for shitty politicians, they'll turn on you too.

>>37537391
I believe so

>>37537441
>where does the truth come from?
No idea. Probably ourself.

>it's not his responsibility to give you a proper reply...
Thanks perspective didn't come from a scientific methodology. It isn't logical. That doesn't mean it can't be discussed.

>>37537445
Of course perception is fallible. That's the whole point. That's why we have to experience everything from every possible perspective: so that nothing is unknown or unexperienced.

>>37537455
>The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
I agree fully.

>>37537507
Sorry you don't like it. If and when you experience what I have, I am confident that you will change your mind.
Also, what's the difference between them lel?

>>37537718
Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty and driven more innovation than any other economic system in history. War happens under any system, within and without.
Also, the chattel slaves were bought or traded from communist tribal societies.

>>37537934
>It's the system maaaan. The evul politicians and corporations are the cause of all my problems. Have you guys read this Noam Champsky guy?

>>37536073
This sounds like pure religious bullshit. Science is the best possible means we have of discerning concrete objectivity within our epistemic limits.

"Why" everything exists is begging the question. It assumes conscious intent when there's no good reason to believe there's anything ultimately real but natural laws based on logic, the latter of which precedes anything imaginable, and the mechanism by which it generates reality may be forever unknown to us.

>>37538042
Why and how can sometimes be the same thing

>>37537939
Crude reasoning.

Is this how we decide on how more "right" an ideology is than another. Draw up a list of deaths and try to measure them against benefits?

Try a thought experiment, apply the same logic to Hitler; yes the genocide and massive loss of life in world war 2, but also the benefits of massive scientific advancement, gains in the arts, the elimination of poverty etc.

Its a dangerous path, bruh

>>37538052
Not in the context he used.

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>>37537919
Daily reminder that Dialectical Materialism followers of Marxism act like a cult. They only rail against religion so violently so they can replace it with their own

>>37535835

They are constructed in the same way as the word "the sun" is constructed. What its called doesn't alter the fucking facts.

saying "capitalism :(((((((((((((((" doesn't alter the fact that information is communicated via prices as a practical FACT, nor does it change the fact that people have to be put in fear of poverty to make them do anything, as the hordes of hikkomori and NEETs in rich societies shows

Take your "social construction" rename it "big fat cock" and then stick it up your ass, faggot. If your theory is correct it will become the same cock that you so desire.

>>37538056
It's not dangerous at all reddit spacing. If one ideology leads to hundreds of millions of deaths, little if any benefits, and fails, and one ideology leads to innovation, less poverty, less intrasocietal deaths, and less over all misery, it seems pretty obvious which is the superior system.
What metric should we use? Arbitrary notions of fairness which are unrealistic and impossible given human biology? Collective thinking class based critical theory? Outdated views on the means of production rooted in the industrial age? What are you suggesting we use as a standard?

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>>37535982
>Everything is based on the fundamental laws of reality

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>>37535835
Does it ever blow your mind that consciousness doesn't exist or have any basis in reality? Damn, really made you think, huh?

>>37538175
not understood =/= doesn't exist. We have better reason to believe in consciousness than in literally anything else.

I think, therefore I am. I cannot doubt my own existence while I doubt...

>>37537779

This is the smartest comment I have evr seen on r9k.

Communism literally CAN work once you have transhumanism and incredible super computing power to actually allocate resources in a way that no fucking state planner has any chance of doing....500 years could do it. Now all it does is produce fucking expensive garbage. This is WHY capitalism has blown out communism. Literally everything the THEORIES of marx predicted have failed to come to pass.

Fucking commies are retards - right now at least.

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>>37535835
>A capitalist would rather a child die of a preventable disease than violate the imaginary laws of capitalism by giving medical care without receiving ""currency""

The moral obligation to save that child's life is ALSO entirely constructed and the imaginary "currency" would require expenditure a part of the 'capitalist's OWN life through labour in order to acquire it. You are obliged to give help only in as much as you want to give it.

>>37538172
You disagree?

>>37538096
materialism and support of communism are not mutually inclusive...

>>37538201
Sure you can because it's not tangible or detectable. Don' think so highly of yourself just because you're all you got.
Keep in mind that a conscious and unconscious person can have the same amount of mass and radiation.

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Sup robots, just a quick question: how clever is it to study polisci, in my case in Germany? Is it just a meme or can I do something with it?

>>37537994
Not him but I've been lurking the thread for la couple if hours now and you really need to stfu. You literally do not have an argument apart from parroting popular lines of rhetoric.

>>37538297
You completely misunderstand. It's logically PROVABLE that I exist as a conscious entity. While science is, again, the best means we can possibly have of discerning concrete objective truth, it's still preceded by logic.

That I exist as a conscious entity is literally the only thing it's possible for me to know in the strictest sense of the word. Everything else, including empiricism, is based on at least one assumption.

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>>37538289
Dialectical materialism is literally the core of Marxism. You cannot have Marxism without materialism (and yes, I'm using Marxism and not communism in case some delusional faggot tries to say >Not real communism, and I'm not using socialism either, because not all socialism is Marxian Socialism)

Marxism and Capitalism are different sides of the same materialistic coin

>>37538445
>doesn't think magic is real
>also must think capitalism is total bullshit

sorry, it doesn't follow buddy

>>37536874
The making of a society by a species is a crucial part in enabeling the members of that species to live together, the more members there are the complexer the society needs to be in order for them to peacefully coexist.

Look up Roberst Sapolsky, great introduction into psychology and biology

>>37538351
It's a meme, don't.

t. 2 year unemploymed poli sci grad

>>37538375
Defending person defending communism and class struggle. Criticize:
>parroting popular lines of rhetoric

Self awareness is a thing. Just so you know. .

>>37538475
wrong definition of materialism I think..

>>37535835
>posting Zizek while writing this idealist drivel

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>>37538390
No it isn't because I don't know it. How the hell do you prove your consciousness to me? I can't directly interact with it so I just have faith to go on.

>>37535835
OP, even tho people will bust your balls for it, I COMPLETELY see where youre coming from,

but you also have to consider on the other hand, WE CONSTRUCTED those things, and for a reason. just because they didn't exist before, doesn't mean theyre unnecessary, there was a REASON we made them out of nothing, but now things are just so complicated and weird that people are questioning shit just like yourself. post-modernism at its finest

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>>37538475
Any ideology that reduces human beings to mere economic units and measures that as the primary indicator of success is shit, desu.

Spirituality and morality is more important than materialism, otherwise we will simply sink ourselves into the same meaningless, pleasure seeking and un-fulfilling existence. You cannot prove nor disprove god, but you CAN choose to believe and benefit rather than not. Religion as a whole is pro-social, it helps humans that are inherently amoral behave as morally and righteously as possible. You think most women would whore around if society and their beliefs would shun it rather than promote it?

Here, Bezmenov argues for religion from purely a secular angle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDKGvg6HeyY

>>37538738
I don't prove it to you. It's proven to MYSELF. Literally everything but my own conscious existence may be a fabrication. The only thing I can be indisputably certain of is that I exist as a conscious entity.

That's the point.

>>37538790
those in power will always take advantage, whether it be dictators, congressmen or priests
we need to end humanity tbqh

>>37538856
begin with yourself

>>37535835
Not really, what blows my mind though is the fact that humanity as a whole hasn't come to the logical conclusion that in order to prevent suffering we should cease reproducing at once.

This is why I support AI taking control, humans will always follow their primal urges instead of making purely logical decisions.

>>37538790
Horse shit. Lack of belief in magic doesn't "reduce people to economic units", it reduces them to people.

Religion hijacks moral theory (poorly) and is presented by and subscribed to by intellectually lazy people who would rather not do bad things out of fear of "supernatural" punishment than actually invest some mental energy into developing and living by a viable moral theory.

Morality comes from us as thinking, feeling creatures capable of imagination, honest self examination, and suffering. I don't need a god to tell me what suffering is.

The application of empathy and reciprocity is what makes moral means. Go ahead and try to create a valid moral theory without those two concepts.

Reciprocity, by the way, is not exclusive or original to Christianity. It's mentioned in the moral philosophy of just about every ancient culture, independent of each other, long before that religion was conceived. Confucius, for example, mentioned it hundreds of years earlier.

These are human ideas, not religious ones.

The only scenario in which religion may offer social utility is when the population is barbaric and uneducated, and to disregard the social harm it causes in regards to social and scientific progress is just outright dishonest. As societies become better off, religiosity tends to drop, and the less religious a country is, the better its citizens fare in every metric.

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>>37538996
>Religion hijacks moral theory (poorly) and is presented by and subscribed to by intellectually lazy people who would rather not do bad things out of fear of "supernatural" punishment than actually invest some mental energy into developing and living by a viable moral theory
>invest some mental energy
Go ahead then, explain that to the average people and the 50% of people that are even dumber than the average person. Individual morality and spirituality is reserved for those that have the ability to think for themselves. For the rest, religion is a one-fit-all that does more than a fine job at keeping society moral and righteous

>social harm it causes in regards to social and scientific progress
Scientific? Perhaps, although this variates by the religion. Social? Religion is one of the most important things that keeps society from collapsing

>As societies become better off, religiosity tends to drop, and the less religious a country is, the better its citizens fare in every metric
You mean as societies become more materialistic and degenerate they lose religion? That much I know. Industrialization improved material conditions significantly from the 1850s or so onwards, but religion only started to die out in the 1970s, and only in the decadent West infected by cultural marxism, in which mass sterility and dysgenics is now being practiced and civilization is despised and dying out

>>37538166
>If one ideology leads to hundreds of millions of deaths, little if any benefits, and fails, and one ideology leads to innovation, less poverty, less intrasocietal deaths, and less over all misery, it seems pretty obvious which is the superior system.
The problem is that capitalism kills 100 million people every 5 years, and 100 million was the entire historical death toll of communism by its greatest estimate.

>>37539282
>For the rest, religion is a one-fit-all that does more than a fine job at keeping society moral and righteous

Again, when people are uneducated and barbaric, sure, there's social utility there.

>Social? Religion is one of the most important things that keeps society from collapsing

I meant in regards to egalitarian progress. Rights for women, children, minorities of all types. Only in a secular society can this type of progress really be made.

>You mean as societies become more materialistic and degenerate they lose religion?

First off, what kind of materialism do you mean? The "I only care about owning shit!" kind of the "magic isn't real" kind? To say the latter leads to degeneracy is plain bullshit.

Second, I mean what I said, that as societies become less religious and more secular, they fare better in every observable metric. Better overall wealth, better standards of living, better social programs, better everything.

People like you never want to admit that religion causes any harm, even in the face of centuries of evidence to the contrary.

>>37539423
>The "I only care about owning shit!" kind of the "magic isn't real" kind?
Fun fact: they're one and the same.

>>37539447
>atheists don't care about anyone or anything except being greedy cunts!

Some people really are retarded enough to think this...

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>>37535835
>life has any intrinsic value

my friend you are so spooked you can't even begin to fathom reality.

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this is all that needs to be said.

If you ain't white get ready for the funeral rite.

this entire thread feels strangely /lit/

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AND SO WON AND SO WON

SNIFF SNIFF