>be a women >kill your bf >get no jail time because

he didn't die you shitposter

i bet she sucked off the judge

make her the prison surgeon
justice is served

>>37087128
I bet the girls in prison will perform some... Procedures

>bread knife

what a baby

>>37087083
What does that matter? Assault is assault, especially assault with a pointy weapon.

>frat boys get acquitted of rape charges because it might ruin their futures
>somehow a shock if the judge offers the same to a woman

>I'M TELLING YOUR MOM AND THEN YOU'LL BE SORRY

what a fucking baby

>>37087045
this is it, I'm now voting for the hillary dawg

>>37087228
>Guilty frat guys getting acquitted for a crime against a woman.
Sure, that totally happened mate.

Why should she go to jail, she only used a bread knife. What a fucking baby her bf is, hope she leaves him.

>Expecting women in western society to be held accountable for their actions even though they have feminism and chivalry simultaneously working in their favor

Nope.

>When you want to be suregeon but you need some pracise first

>>37087445
>when you want to make a funny post on 4chan but you write English at a 3rd grade level

As a doctor she really should be smarter than that. I never went to med school, but I at least know attacking people with knife for no reason is not very nice and might cause them harm.

>>37087488
>when you hadn't know broke english is humorous multiplier

>>37087045
I see you browsed /pol/ last night. There is nothing wrong with the judge's decision to suspend her sentence. She admitted guilt and doing so would actually hurt her career. Her boyfriend was fine.

>>37087180
Well it does matter if he died or not, but your point still stands.

>>37087600
>pretending to be retarded in 2017

>>37087600
That only applies to foreign asians posting, polandball, or spurdo.

>>37087045

At least have some intellectual honesty, fagtron.

Her ex BF is alive and well.

But. If she reacts that way under heavy pressure, she probably shouldn't be a doctor. I'm not arguing that.

>>37087603
Womemes are a protected caste of society and you know fully well that if a man did this he wouldn't be spared because of his career
People with aggressive tendencies like that should not be entrusted with people's lives

>>37087650
>pretending
>>37087684
>you see any different

I'm not saying that she should go to jail, but there is a clear double standard in the legal system, which really undermines its entire foundation. If the genders were reversed, no one would think twice about what might be best for the perpetrator. It is only when the perpetrator is a woman, that concerns to their wellbeing is part of sentencing.

>>37087954
>Womemes are a protected caste of society and you know fully well that if a man did this he wouldn't be spared because of his career
No. I don't know that and neither are you. And just because you're a bitter, women hating virgin doesn't mean that women are a protected class.

it's ok women only ever become cosmetic surgeons.
ever seen a woman removing a tumor (not skin)?

>>37088011
>DUDE UR A VIRGIN LOL XDDDD
>I CALLED U A VIRGIN NOW I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND IN THE ARGUMENT BEAT THAT LOOOL XD
Wow you got him, you win.

>>37088043
>He's so triggered at being called a virgin he disregards the message itself

>>37087045
>surgeon
>likes stabbing
checks out

>>37087045
This isn't a gender issue, this is a calss issue.

She got off because she is a rich upper-class yuppy brat that the British always defend because they need corporate ladder climbers.

>>37088070
You're just going to keep posting your garbage until you get the last word, huh?

>>37088090
class**

origami comment

>>37088011
She attacked a man with a knife and didn't even get a slap on the wrist. If a man had attacked a woman with a knife he'd go straight to jail. Domestic violence and violence against women laws require he go straight to jail without due process or even evidence that a crime took place. This bitch actually admitted to assault with a deadly women and the judge says innocent because of vagina.

>>37087343
Where have you fucking been? Some white kid swimmer literally raped a girl and got off scott free. sjws were raging about it for the longest time

>>37088090
>>37088122
Do you have a single piece of evidence to back that claim up? huh

>>37088129
>assault with a deadly women
what did he mean by this?

>>37088129
>wanting a girl to go to jail because she attacked you
LMAO she's like 100 lbs and she used a dull bread knife.
Her bf is a pussy bitch for calling the cops

>>37088146
He meant stabbing someone with a bread knife. Assault(stabbing) with a deadly weapon(bread knife).

>>37088129
>didn't even get a slap on the wrist
She got a suspended sentence.

>If a man had attacked a woman with a knife he'd go straight to jail
Not necessarily

>assault with a deadly women
lol

>judge says innocent because of vagina.
Except he doesn't say she's innocent and he gives her a suspended sentence because she's doing something with her life and has great talent. Unlike you.

>>37088096
Calm down virgin

File: yup.jpg (115KB, 750x750px) Image search: [Google]

115KB, 750x750px

>>37087045


I'd both let her off, and put up with the odd attempted stabbing desu

price you pay for crazy hot poon

>>37088176

You know women are stupid. It's pure luck that was the closest knife. Had it been a chef knife he'd be dead. People like that belong in jail and certainly can't be trusted to work even as a CNA.

>>37088011
>bitter, women hating virgin
Confirmed roastie. I don't despise women, just narcissistic entitled sluts (which are quite common now a days)
There are countless examples of women being let off far easier than men for similar crimes

>>37088216

So if I stabbed a girl but was in med school you really think I'd get off free? Are you a roastie or just stupid?

>>37088252
You don't become a surgeon at 24 if you're stupid. She might be crazy, but you don't get a smart, hot, crazy gf without some risk.

Her bf is 100% a pussy.

you lot are a bunch of fucking pussies.

any one would know she was crazy manic pixie dream girl and know to expect the odd knifing, its all part of the package. the autie mentalists usually have character and are bound to be complete freaks in bed.

>>37088321
Hang yourself, repugnant redditor.

>>37088300
I think he meant women are more susceptible to being emotional and irrational. But you'd think surgeons would be either of those things.

File: IMG_0734.jpg (81KB, 500x572px) Image search: [Google]

81KB, 500x572px

This is exactly how society should operate i.e. a meritocracy

>>37087228
>stabbing her, now ex-boyfriend


Aw jeez what happened?

>>37087045
It's pretty appropriate that her crime had to do with the same tool (knife) that people trust their lives for her to use properly.

>>37088386
It's not meritocratic to let someone go without punishment simply because they are an attractive women.
It's special treatment based on sex and appearance.

>>37088285
>So if I stabbed a girl but was in med school you really think I'd get off free?
She didn't get off free. She got a suspended sentence. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

>Are you a roastie or just stupid?
The irony of an emotionally stunted autist using his impotent rage as an argument yet saying this.

>>37088500
>projecting
>ad hominem
>reflecting
Typical roastie. You truly are a vapid creature, you know that. A vacuous little simpleton, trained to use pretty language, unable to think deeply.

>>37088300

I doubt she finished her residency unless she got her bachelors degree at 15. Med school and general surgery alone take 9 years at the fastest time frame possible. Plenty of women finish med school while being stupid as fuck though. Affirmative action and all that. I can tell you haven't worked with many med school kids. I still wonder if they took the USUCCMEs instead of the USMLEs.

>>37088582
>He's so emotionally vulnerable that he disregards the first part of the reply which is on topic and focuses on how mean I was
Do your fee-fees hurt?

>>37088429
He's saying that people with skills should be looked at differently. He was disregarding the point of the post, yes we know she's a girl and that if it was a man then he would have most likely been punished.

Feminism is a fucking cancer

>>37088429
Well the article clearly states it was because of her academics, but uggos are basically sub-human anyway and we should purge society of inferior blood.

>>37087045
>stabbed when he threatened to Skype her bother during argument
>she didn't get punished really
Dope. Mad women indirectly learned they can do things without consequence

>>37088688
Well should people with 'skills' be looked at differently? How do we know she even has skills, and doesn't just get by on her looks, like how she got off scot free from assaulting someone with a deadly weapon?
Let's say some guy is a brilliant scientist, should he be able to kill your family and walk away because he is valuable to society? Would you be okay with that?

>>37088500
suspended sentences are usually just dismissed though ? so shes getting off scott free unless she attacks again

>>37087045
>A bread knife
So she didn't even pierce skin, meh.

>>37088500

Suspended sentence, Scott free, same exact shit considering it was domestic abuse involving a fucking knife. She should be in prison right now.

>>37088717
We should start by offing the unintelligent ones, as intelligence is far more important than looks. I guess you will have to go, but that is the price we pay for a better tomorrow, am I right?

>>37088751
I doubt she would be a working surgeon if she didn't have the qualifications.

>>37088751
Absolutey.
People aren't 'equal' my value to society is much less than his.

>>37088688

Western justice is not based on that ridiculous mindset anyway. Justice is supposed to be blind. This cunt is no better than the crackhead nigger that stabs a lover over a petty argument.

>>37088810

Do you even know what we're talking about? She's not a surgeon.

>>37088774
>>37088757
A suspended sentence is still a sentence. The judge issued it on the presumption that this was a one-off event. Doing it again would violate this presumption and result in her receiving jail time. Not really sure what is to be upset about here.

File: IMG_0018.png (251KB, 381x354px) Image search: [Google]

251KB, 381x354px

>>37087600
Top haw haw

>>37088814
How self-depreciating. If you lack basic self-control you are not part of some elevated elite. What do I care about worth to society?

File: 1479663328956.jpg (7KB, 250x216px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 250x216px

>tfw when even girls that are legit smart, come from tip tier families, are studying real subjects, are still getting fucked by tinder chads and drinking/doing drugs

The memes are true

>>37088144
>Where have you fucking been? Some white kid swimmer literally raped a girl and got off scott free.
You mean the scrawny kid who fingered a drunk slut at a party and got jail time?

File: impressive.gif (2MB, 350x255px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 350x255px

>>37088888
Nice m8 i r8 8 out of 8

>>37088144
>literally raped
Nah, GTS my friend

>>37088914
Dude, she was drunk. If you have sex with a woman who has drunk alcohol you are basically a rapist. You don't know if she's going to regret it when she's sober. You are taking away her right to choose.

>>37088907
Smart girls are taking advantage of easy Chad dick while they're young

Half the threads in /r9k/ are about heroing

why not hero by dating this mad bitch and at least you get to fuck her before dying.to her frenzied stabbing

>>37088070
there wasnt a message there at all just a classic ad hominen. kys please, you are a waste of human space and really are the reason i fully support abortion

>>37087083
>he didn't die

how dare anyone care or even talk about it amirite ?

>>37088982
Fucking kill yourself, obnoxious numale.

>>37089006
Guy touch woman on her butt - 20 years in jail getting raped by niggers
Woman stab man with knife - No sentence, she dindu nuffin.

>>37088873
Yes I knew what this thread was about, I didn't notice she was an "aspiring" surgeon though. Were you dropped on your head?

>>37088991
It's not an ad hom if it's true and is the reason why you're throwing a tantrum ;)

>>37088902
Stabbing someone is an alpha play and shows you aren't willing to be fucked around with.
Exactly the kind of ruthless attitude you need in the elite.

>>37089120
Yes it is an ad hom regardless of whether it is true. Honestly you are stupid. It is a marvel that people can have a decent sized vocabulary without even compreheneding a simple logical fallacy.
Being an ugly virgin, being angry, being whatever, is completely irrelevant to what is being said.

>>37087045
YAAAAAAAAAAAAS SLAY QUEEN

>>37089150
They were 'dating', so it was probably some stupid bullshit. Are you going to chimp out cause your boyfriend slept with another girl? Grow up you little emotional baby, you're not part of an elite.

>>37087505
this
knife is bad for health
not a very good surgeon

>>37087603
Protip, going to jail hurts everyones careers, didn't get Jamal or Steve's sentence suspended
Cunt privilege, get away with murder because you have a job wooow

>>37089167
It's not. Your argument is based purely on the fact that you think being a bitter virgin is not the basis for his argument. I'm saying it is. It's therefore not a fallacy.

>>37089263
No it doesn't. Someone tried arguing this in the /pol/ thread. Very few jobs run background checks. Very few jobs require ten years of your life and hundreds of thousands of dollars to even begin.

>>37087045
This was a fucking retarded as shit decision. She's listed as a medical student on the BBC article and a lot of these dumbasses quite after their foundation year or spend time locuming and not going into training programmes for whatever reason, so using the excuse that sentencing her harms her career is stupid since she might never make it that far.

t. actual surgeon

>>37089281
An alleged motivation for making an argument is not the basis of that argument, stupid.
It's time for you to shut up, to save what miniscule amount of dignity you have left.

>>37089306
There is no basis for his argument though. There are many compounding factors that resulted in her sentence being suspended. Her being a female is mere coincidence. But everyone keeps bringing it up like it's important. Hence where the argument is coming from.

>>37089094
It was mentioned earlier she's 24. You know Doogie Howser is just a TV show, right?

>>37087045
The west doesnt even try to hide pussy passes anymore. If a man stabbed his gf, surgeon or not, he'd go in for 25 at least.

But yeah, women are zomg so oppressed guise!

>>37089150

Stabbing someone because they said they were calling mom is not that alpha. I could understand if he said he was going to kill her mom, maybe even if he said he fucked her mom. Just calling doesn't warrant a fucking stabbing.

>>37089350
>mere coincidence
Except that it is well established, that women receive softer sentences than men for the same crimes.

>>37088500
>She got a suspended sentence

So literally nothing?

White knights have no shame, do they? There's no low they won't go for to defend vagina.

>>37089353
Some people start college at a very young age. But regardless, others in the thread referred to her as being a surgeon. Just stop replying to my posts you sperg.

>>37089432
Not defending vagina. Defending a legal decision.

>>37089400
Women are less likely to commit violent crime and are inherently less aggressive due to less testosterone. They're generally unlikely to re-offend.

>>37089485
All those excuses are irrelevant when you've already shown yourself capable of losing control and stabbing someone in a temper tantrum.
Again, I am not saying that jailing her is the best solution, but the best solution is only ever the goal when the perpetrator is a woman.
If it was a man, the goal would suddenly change and become revenge.

>>37087045
I saw that this morning. It's ridiculous. Judges can now judge people based on their potential value and not what they're actually worth. I shouldn't say now, it's been like this for a while, but it's a reminder.

>>37087045
>Guilty of GBH
>"She HAS to be a surgeon; responsible for the lives and wellbeings of others."
What the actual fuck?

>>37089300

Which is why she probably shouldn't run around stabbing people for no reason. She picked on of the very few jobs that don't like people who might stab someone over nothing. The public shouldn't have to suffer just because she has the emotional continence of a woman. She is the reason we have prisons, to keep bad people away from good people.

File: 14077305583298.jpg (75KB, 352x338px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 352x338px

>>37088907
Did you somehow come to believe that a woman being more intelligent would make her more likely to settle for the low-intellect woman-hating types you find here?

>>37089826
Misogony is a sign of high intelligence. Nice try though, you fat ugly roastie..

>>37089440

So you just assumed she was a surgeon because some idiot said so? You didn't bother to do the math to see she would have had to start University at 11 to be a surgeon at 24? Crying and begging me to stop making you look like a retard does not make you look any less retarded

>>37089485
>Not defending vagina. Defending a legal decision.

You mean the legal decision to defend vagina? Not fooling anyone bud

>woman
>good looking

PRIVILEGE

Fuck this judge. If I was the judge I'd lock her up for life.

>>37089952

I don't know about life, but I'd at least follow the letter and spirit of the law. Pussy privilege is a thing, but it shouldn't be a literal get out jail free card.

All of you guys missed the best part. This Stacy was dumped by a Chad and it obviously made her very upset.

That brings comfort to me.

>>37090092

For some reason I'm not as comforted by a news story letting women know they can stab me with no repercussions if I dump them. This is a serious problem and a gross injustice.

>>37088176
Damn right.

Can't believe I nearly got hauled to prison for shooting at someone with a gun. I missed and didn't even hit them ffs.

Boy, im sure this volatile woman who flies into fuiking STABBING RAGES is going to be a good surgeon who i trust with a scalpel to my vital organs/

>>37090794

You'll be fine as long as you don't press any of her buttons. It has to be something egregious like saying you want to call mother before going under the knife.

>UK meant to be tough on knife crime
>You can get arrested and get a prison sentence if you're caught with a knife over certain length - even if below that length you have to prove you have a reason for having it on you
>Woman stabs a man with a knife
>Suspended sentence because her career might be affected

I'm more concerned about what sort of message this sends out. If you've got a career lined up then fear not if you endanger someones life, the law is on your side :)

>>37091005

>bin that knife!
>unless you might get a job some day
>and coincidentally have a vagina but this has nothing to do with having a vagina

>>37088090
>calss issue

anon confirmed as working class pleb

>>37087105
No. The judge is probably a woman or an idiot baby boomer that believes women can do no wrong and should be protected at all costs.

>>37087343
Winston Jameis? If he wasn't a black Heisman Trophy winner they would've crucified him

>>37087045
he didnt die you dumb fuck.

however a surgeon drug user??? the fuck UK??

>>37088881
>stab someone for calling your mom
>this is a person who deserves a second chance

>>37092065
Do you know how rage inducing it is to have your boyfriend/girlfriend call your mum when having a fight? It's provoking as fuck and was done deliberately.

>>37092065
The judge figured he learned his lesson and won't use the phone again without her permission. Like I said, one off event.

>>37092184
Is this a common occurrence for you? Does your mom usually take your boyfriend's side? I say boyfriend because I can only assume you're a faggot if you find this rage inducing.

>>37092273
>t. virgin who hasn't been in a bitter fight with their girlfriend

>>37092184
"WAHHH PLEASE DON'T CALL MOMMY I'LL STAB YOU"

Pussy pass. It's a thing.

>>37092184

No matter how irritating it is, that doesn't excuse literally FUCKING STABBING SOMEONE.

I am a very emotional person but I don't stab people. Someone who stabs people when they get upset should not be a fucking SURGEON. They should be in a mental health facility.

>>37087150
On who? She's not going to prison you fucking mong
She gets away with it "because she's going to be a surgeon"
Never mind the fact that this is exactly the reason WHY she should be punished because PEOPLE WHO STAB THEIR PARTNERS SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO OPERATE ON PEOPLE
"Female privilege doesn't exist"
White shariah fucking WHEN
GAS THE FLAPS BEEF WAR NOW

>>37092417
>Missing the point
It's about trying to involve anyone in your fight. It's a cunt move.

>>37092440
If she were a man he would have decked her. She stabbed him because she's a woman.

>>37092446
Cunt move or not the appropriate reaction is to say "you're a cunt", not stab them to death

>>37087228
Slipping a finger into a drunk girl is not the same as putting a knife inside one
Also if anything if you're going to be a medical professional you should be held to even closer scrutiny because nobody wants someone who stabs people operating on them

>>37092471
>not stab them to death
Didn't happen

>Cunt move or not the appropriate reaction is to say "you're a cunt"
Why do I get the feeling that you're the same kind of guy who shit talks betas? This is a weak move and will only encourage her.

>>37092534
what argument are you trying to win? stabbing someone for such a petty reason is stupid and demonstrates she is unstable and should be punished for her actions.

her reaction was not appropriate. the ends didn't justify the means. you're a beta faggot

>>37088144
He finger banged her after she got drunk. Not rape.

>>37088968
>be wasted at a party and black out
>some fat chick jumps your dick
>wake up in the morning with a hangover and herpes
>try to press charges and file a report
>get laughed out of the police station

Life is a bitch, make better decisions. It's one thing to be stalked by a rapist, but getting drunk at a party can be dangerous and putting yourself in a vulnerable position is not very smart.

>>37088144
>Fingerbang a girl who was literally asking for it
>She regrets it because she has a BF
>Destroy a mans entire career and life

>>37087045
Nu-male deserves it for not killing the bitch.

>>37092645
>he thinks all individuals in prestigious positions are stable, normal people
Jesus Christ have you gone outside and met some of these people?

>>37092534

Why the fuck are you defending a fucking stabber?

Jesus Christ dude. Maybe he shouldn't have called his mom; I don't know.

But it doesn't excuse her taking a sharp object and attacking him with it. That's not something a mentally healthy person does except in self-defense, in extremely bizarre and dire circumstances.

Stop the bs.

>>37088968
>Drink alcohol
>Run somebody over
>Officer it isn't my fault! I'm drunk! I don't have the ability to consent to drive!
Reap the consequences of your action, dipshit. If you walked around compton shouting "NEGRO", not even nigger, just negro, and got stabbed 15 times the police wouldnt even investigate it. They'd say "Don't do that, you fucking idiot"

>>37092892

Lots of people are fucking nuts. That doesn't mean we need to make the problem worse.

>>37092892
You can expect a corporate raider to be a remorseless sociopath
You can expect an actor to be a bipolar schizo
You shouldn't need to worry about your fucking surgeon being a violent psycho

I have never stabbed anyone with anything ever, no matter how angry or drunk or high I was. They're not fucking excuses.
Her actions need consequences

>>37092534
Imagine being this guy
>drug riddled tinder date
>have fight decide to call her mom
>she stabs me with a knife
>Call the police because:
>she was on some shit drugs
>also SHE FUCKING STABBED ME
>gets negligible repercussion
yeah you're so fucking dense.
The rapists getting aquitted doesn't make this case any more right you bingo bongo looking ass.

>>37093163
>You shouldn't need to worry about your fucking surgeon being a violent psycho
Jack the Ripper

>I have never stabbed anyone with anything ever, no matter how angry or drunk or high I was
You've never done anything ever you beta

>Her actions need consequences
Suspended sentence

>>37092922
It wouldn't be making it worse. It'd be the same. Are you retarded?

>>37093245
It was a boyfriend. Met on tinder. How else do you think he had her mother's number? He antagonized her.

>>37092184
Jesus fucking christ, you white knights are the fucking worst. You treat women like children while insisting that they're equal to men. Either they get equal everything or we treat them like the stupid fucking children that feminists and women have shown them to be.

>>37094247
How is that white knighting you fucking virgin

>>37087045
DEAR F*CKING LORD. A PERSON WHO STABBED SOMEONE SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO WORK AS A SURGEON. Where the hell do these people keep their brain? In their ARSE? THIS IS NOTING BUT POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE TO THE LEVEL OF MENTAL RETARDATION, that is often times the case. That just because she is f*cking extraordinary, she needs to go on cutting people with A KNIFE, even if she STABBED a person with A KNIFE. This world is full of completely BRAINLESS MORONS these days.

File: poot.png (178KB, 573x495px) Image search: [Google]

178KB, 573x495px

>>37094395

>tfw This is not at all an isolated incident
>tfw women usually get reduced sentences
>tfw women routinely get off scot-free for grand larceny, rape, murder, assault etc etc

>>37087045
plato's vision

>>37094441
YES, political correctness gone to the level of mental retardation.

>>37094525

Vigilante justice was the fallback for these types of situations. Sadly, the world has lost its collective spine.

>>37093366
Only children turn words into violence. She threw a tempter tantrum and blantanly committed assault WITH A WEAPON. She is obviously insane because any sane person would've just punched/slapped or kicked the other person. Also, tinder date =/= boyfriend. This was a stranger she was willingly able to stab.

Eh, chalk up another female privilege tally and make sure to let the next Football Captain get away with his rape and it'll be even.

>>37094557
>Only children turn words into violence
t. beta cuck

>>37087045
ANYONE doing these things, SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO WORK AS A SURGEON OR EVEN A DOCTOR. Also, ALL IDIOTS allowing her to study for that profession still, SHOULD BE JAILED.

"Woodward, who was under the influence of DRUGS and ALCOHOL, punched Fairclough in the face and stabbed him in the leg with a bread knife. She also threw a laptop, glass and a jam jar at him."

A person who uses DRUGS and is prone to LETHAL TANTRUMS can not be let cutting people. Even an IDIOT gets that one.

>>37087603
go away forever to a dark well please.
could I avoid jail time for stabing a women, even if she was 'fine'??????
of course not.
equality please, not sexism(or in the new english 'feminism')

>>37087045
>betas and feminists will actually defend this
god I wish I was born 60 years earlier

>>37088968
OMG
I CANT EVEN
Dudddee if that is true then you are not guilty if you rape a girl when YOU are drunk b/c you don't know if you are going to regret it whe you're sober and you did not have the right to choose

GET GUD BOIII xDD

>>37089826
Eat shit roasty. So call misogyny has been found to more common in intelligent men.

>>37094395
>>37094862
We have too few surgeons and too many useless normie quasi-chads
No sense in putting someone with surgical aptitude in jail just because she stabbed some degenerate who's probably surplus population

>>37095135
I wonder if you're getting it in your stupid little head, that if she stabs her boyfriend, having a tantrum while in drugs, she might also hurt her patient, having a tantrum while in drugs. People who are MENTALLY UNSTABLE should never be allowed to work in a profession where they are responsible of human lives. And she will never get back on track, that is for sure. Druggie is always a druggie, more or less.