What would you do if we lived in Communism and had total freedom?

No thanks, the hammer and sickle is just as much a symbol of hate and starvation and murder as the swastika

>collection
>personal property
OP I think you may have brain problems

>>37079445
>he doesn't know the difference between personal property and private property

>>37079400
No, you would work in the factory. All year. If you refused, you would be shot or sent to gulag.

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>communism
>freedom
OP it's time for a heli ride

Let's start with childhood. I'd go to school, learn about all the advances in science made possible by the working man. I'd play football in the commieblocks. Maybe I'd catch one of the propaganda action films, and act out the parts of the inspiring heroes and intimidating villains with the boys on my block. I'd sneak into church with my secretly pious mother, and observe a forbidden world of solemn ritual. I'd work my way into a learned trade, or perhaps apply for a job with the secret services. I doubt I'd be sent to the gulag; in a strong, well-regulated society, I could find a place to be a patriotic cog in the machine.

Yeah have fun working for the State and being told what to think and what to do for the rest of your existence, comrade. Want to practice your marksmanship? Too bad, the communal fields need extra work force for the season. Want to move to New Mexico? Tough shit pal, the State just assigned you a generic flat in suburban Detroit.

>>37079400
>secretly gather resources
>establish a pseudo business
>make money and or other various forms of profit
>start paying people, build a small army
>take over local area
>proceed to overthrow communist government
>serve as first president of newly founded republic of freedom

>>37079469
>communism is authoritarian industrialism
You're thinking of Socialism. Communism is much less extreme, it's just a free society based on liberal values like Equality, Liberty, and post-scarcity.

>>37079400
>Communism
>Freedom

Choose one amigo

>>37079420
the swastika never caused famines. the swaztika is power and order, a utopia

dont be a nigger

>>37079565
you're on /r9k/, you can't even clean your room, why do you think you'd be able to stage a coup against a communist world-republic?

>>37079400
>total freedom
freedom from my bread isn't really total freedom

>>37079710
>The Swastika never caused famines
that is literally intentional policy of Krautniggers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan

>>37079714
>you can't even clean you room
Nice projection. Besides, humans are inherently greedy/want to look out for themselves or family. With the right words and the right incentive you could convince someone to fight for you, I'd just have to do that on a larger scale.

>>37079710
Even if they didnt kill le 6 trillion they still did fucked up things to innocents lile women, children etc. Dont be a faggot

>>37079400

Communism? Freedom?

Don't you remember what you learned in school?

https://archive.org/details/Communis1952

>>37079754
That's the thing about communism. in capitalism, there are plenty of conflicts, both within and between classes. war, political violence, and opression is natural. But communism is the end of class antagonism, There is no money or private property, hence no one has incentives to work for you. With no government to enforce private property, you can't convince anyone to work for you. You don't even have incentives for people to work for you.

>>37079400
>Communism
>Keeping your guns

I'm a goddamn communist, but seriously. Pick one.

>In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis, "common, universal")[1][2] is the philosophical, social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.[5][6]

>>37079837
There will always be incentives anon, always. It can be a simple favor or it can be something of value. Bartering and incentive has been an aspect of mankind since the start.
Someone is always going to have a problem they want help solving. Everyone has their exploits.

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>>37079854
Not a very well read one it seems.

>>37079854
pol false flag or illiterate

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>>37079854
>I'm a communist
sounds like you need to read more about communism, homie.

>>37079875
I know this is rare on the internet, but i'm the guy you responded to, and I'll admit you're right - I'm not well read on communism (I'm also not actually an unironic communist, though I am a sympathizer/apologist) But even if it was to try to prove me wrong, you've unironically educated me and increased my knowledge. Thanks!

>>37079905
My pleasure. I honestly mean that.

>>37079875

I get so confused by the left-right dichotomy.

Anarchism is no government, but is far left
Authoritarianism is all government, but far right

>>37079871
You can work 24/7 giving handjobs, you still wont entice enough people. even if you could, rival handjob cartels will bust your shit up.

>>37079934
>You can work 24/7 giving handjobs, you still wont entice enough people.
Sure you can. It's a sort of domino effect, get someone to work for you and slowly expand your power through them.
>rival handjob cartels will bust your shit up.
I could strike a deal with them. If they're giving handjobs for power they must have similar beliefs to mine,

>>37079905
>>37079918
See this people? This is what /r9k/ could be if we were a little bit nicer to each other.
>inb4 kys

>>37079980
communists are dumb lel

>>37079980
>if /r9k/ was nicer we could be educating and indoctrinating a horde of neets into judeobolshevism

And why would we want that? we should all be dicks to eachother if that's the alternative.

>>37080030
Do you even know what bolshevism was?

>>37079923
The terms tend to be very relative, "left" is usually used to refer to ideologies that want to end oppression and help the poor while "right" usually refers to ideologies that want to keep the existing social hierarchies or strengthen them.
In general left = less social hierarchy while right = more social hierarchy

So an authoritarian government which tries to make everyone equal and owns all property (e.g the Soviet Union) and a society based around commonly-owned, worker-run enterprise (e.g. Anarchist-Syndicalist Spain and the Bavarian Soviet Republic) are both considered far left. An authoritarian government which enforces strict hierarchy (e.g. Feudal societies) and a society based entirely on free markets and private ownership with minimal government (e.g. 1800s USA) are both considered far right.

OP, do you honestly believe any woman would demean themselves by sleeping with me if it wasn't for capitalism? currently I can hire a prostitute every month or so, but communism wants to abolish money. Do you think it's fair to condemn uncharismatic and unattractive men to forever be virgins? there is absolutely no reason anyone who isn't a Chad would want communism. maybe something like european socialism at most.

>>37079918
Thanks anon, keep fighting the good fight and teaching people shit. Also, to
>>37080030
he didn't make me anything I wasn't before, he added more information to what I had to consider. I know I'm no genius, but you really think lowly of other bots if you think one not-overly-politicized image macro can "indoctrinate" someone. And take your arbitrary "saying jews is means lots of (you)s" back to /bant/.

>>37080080
Jewish plot to destroy whites with economics. now jews realized communism would always fail, so they decided to destroy whites with tolerant culture.

>>37079476
Someone advocating for Capitalism, i.e. wageslavery is threatening me with force, thereby breaking the NAP.
>>37079469
>>37079482
>>37079492
>Communism is totalitarian Marxist-Leninist states
Fuck sake, they didn't even say they achieved Communism and almost all Leftists before and since say they didn't do shit except make the state the owner of capital instead of the individual capitalists.
>>37079565
More like
>try to start a business
>no one buys from you because they already get there needs met
>you're seen as a retard wasting your time

>>37080129
Ok, so you are clueless.

>>37080110
But anon, you're not asking yourself why women seem to have the preferences they do now. Under Capitalism, not only are they constantly brainwashed to find certain personalities and appearances attractive, largely through advertising, they also have to be concerned with social capital, which can translate to real capital. Many women are told that the way for them to rise in society is to find a man with upward mobility. Under Communism, people will treat each other like individuals, and they'll have individual preferences, not the preferences taught to them by advertising and Hollywood.

>>37080198
This. Under communism there won't be corporate media brainwashing.

>>37080156
>Someone advocating for Capitalism, i.e. wageslavery is threatening me with force, thereby breaking the NAP.
How so?
Under a capitalist society you have a choice in what you do, what you spend your earnings on, where you do it, and if you even work at all.
None of those are choices in a communist society. Communist societies are for the weak minded and low skilled.

All government exists to expand and consume, communist or democrat. By being desperately loyal to any of them you are only turning your back to get stabbed. The government won't give a single shit about you ever. It will put numbers and statistics before your life and comfort at any time.

>>37080114
Hey it's no problem just remember the literature is out there waiting for you. And almost all of it is easily acquired through the public domain ;)

>>37080213
Instead it'll be govenment / societal brainwashing.
Like in the Soviet Union, Mao China, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela etc.

>>37080220
Agreed that's why communist/anarchists should seek to dismantle the state and give workers the power seceded by the state as it is torn down so it doesn't fall under corporate control and is fragmented into manageable sizes

>>37080218
>Under a capitalist society you have a choice in what you do
Yeah, you can either be a slave or starve.

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>every communist and socialist society fails horribly
>not even one succeeds, they all fail. Even when capitalism fails such as in Africa it still succeeds in most of the western world
>commies STILL push it
The oldest and most annoying forced meme to ever exist.

>>37080198
and what do you think Stacy will be looking for when communism happens? Probably a guy who's kind and in shape. Do you think that's in any way fair to me? In capitalism, they don't have get that choice. Communism would force me to be nice and good looking if I ever wanted to get laid at all.

>>37080226
Ideally there won't be any government

>>37080255
Or you can open a business and be no one's slave, retard.

>>37080266
So you want an ancap society.

>>37080260
>every communist and socialist society fails horribly
Like Cuba?

>>37080284
You can't open business without capital. Take a loan? Then you slave for banks.

>>37080290
Oh are you talking about the country where people have the purchasing power of someone working 5 hours a week in the US on minimum wage despite in Cuba they work 40+ hours a week in grueling conditions?
Or are you talking about the country where you have to bring your own bed sheets and light bulbs to hospitals because they're so poorly managed?

Oh wait, same country.

>>37080284
capitalism can only exist with a state or a centralized power structure akin to a state.

>>37080243

That wasn't my point. Communist government is still government. First, it is controlled by the Central Comittee and Commisariats. And second, it is still eager to sacrifice me for two other men, or for a rise in production. And once it expands innecessantly, there will be starvation and war, where I will suffer and be sacrificed again for people I don't care about who did nothing for me but did it all for the government.

>>37080156
>almost all leftists before and since say they didn't do shit
>before say they didn't do shit
>before
The "not real communism" education in action

>>37080304
Work, earn money, open a business. Or take a loan, open a business, and pay it off.
Either way you can be completely free. You can never be free under communism. You will always be a puppet.

>>37080319
Yea, so can communism. Ancap doesn't exist for the same fucking reason ancom doesn't.

>>37080218
Under Capitalism, if you are not born with an extensive amount of capital, you have no choice but to work for someone else's benefit, for why would they hire you if you didn't make them money? Your labor is just another commodity for them to buy to try to return an investment on. And for most of capitalism's history and still for most of the world, the alternative to wageslaving is literally starvation, it's just in the first work there's enough wealth and infrastructure to support the unemployed through welfare so that they can remain part of the reserve army of labor thereby driving everyone else's wages down and decreasing the power of labor.
>None of those are choices in a communist society.
Specifically under Socialism an individual will receive precisely what they create without the property owning class leaching off their labor.
>>37080220
Agreed. That's where Marxist-Leninists failed, in that they did not realize that a government solely exists to serve its own interests.
>>37080226
Communist societies are not Marxist-Leninist states.
>>37080263
In Capitalism, the best you'll get is a hooker who doesn't love you, and probably isn't putting all that much effort into fucking you. There's nothing preventing you from becoming a decent person or improving your health. It's only through unrealistic Hollywood standards that people expect men to have 5% bodyfat chiseled chin chads.
>>37080284
>Or you can open a business and be no one's slave, retard.
Not if I don't have substantial capital, like most people. If I take a loan I become a debt slave to the banks. All of this isn't taking into amount 96% of startups fail, therefor making it an exceedingly unrealistic way to escape wageslavery.
>So you want an ancap society.
Capitalism cannot exist without the state. Read the Iron Fist behind the Invisible Market, it's very short and concise. https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/kevin-carson-the-iron-fist-behind-the-invisible-hand

>>37080318
Also the country which has been fucked by USA embargo for 60 years.

>>37080260
Capitalism killed more people in the 19th century than "socialist" killed in the 20th century, even by extreme estimates from anti-communists.
Capitalism also killed more people in the 20th century.
but even then, it's a moot point, because what's killing people is the antagonism of people and private property, and society based around it is hell, whether it takes place in self described socialist (state-capitalist) states that adhered to Marxist-Leninism, or capitalist nations.

the point is, we need to move beyond private property to communal ownership, and establish a soceity where oppression doesn't only not happen, but is impossible.

>>37080355
>Wahhh it's the USs fault despite having dozens of trading partners

>>37080329
Part of the definition of Communism is that there is literally no state or government. Secondly you still thinking of a very specific type of Marxist-Leninist state.
>>37080331
Just like crony capitalism isn't "real capitalism"?
>>37080337
No matter what, I'll always be at a lose from having to wage work for someone else, or pay off the loan I took. Second, there are no puppet-masters in Communism, people are free to do as they like with having to be economically coerced.

>>37080354
>Under Capitalism, if you are not born with an extensive amount of capital, you have no choice but to work for someone else's benefit
Unless you're part of the ruling party in a commie society it's the same shit. Difference is that you can move up in capitalism
>Communist societies are not Marxist-Leninist states.
Yes they are Mr "not real communism" child.
>Capitalism cannot exist without the state. Read the Iron Fist behind the Invisible Market, it's very short and concise.
How about you read Hoppe. Communism can't exist period. Capitalism can, and theoretically without a state as well.

>>37080376
Capitalism didn't kill shit. Meanwhile communist regimes literally killed hundreds of millions by execution and systematic starvation

>>37080402
>No matter what, I'll always be at a lose from having to wage work for someone else, or pay off the loan I took
Not true. The second you've paid it off you're your own person.

And the state or collective is the puppet master in communism. Commies are eternal slaves.

>>37080402

If communism is so stateless, why do you call it a state? Why is there distribution inside it? Who will force people to distribute? My engineering achievments will be taken for nothing, only for me to be rotated to the frontline of your ever-bloating non-state.

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Everyone seem to miss op point. He clearly means an imaginary utopia where everyone is working for the common good and still have the freedom to do whatever they want. The debate about communism is silly, of course history proved that communism is murderous and strip the soul out of people, but in op question, we can assume that it was implemented in a sane way that preserve people freedom somehow. (with technology or whatever). Details don't matter here.
So in that case, I would probably stop studying CS right now and do landscaping instead. Planning garden and planting trees, flowers. Placing rocks and mulch. Removing bad weeds. enjoying the sun or the rain. Going to bed exhausted and proud of my day.

>>37080379
Quoting wikipedia 'cuz I'm lazy:
"In November 1991, the Cuban ambassador, Ricardo Alarcon, in a speech to the UN General Assembly, cited 27 recent cases of trade contracts interrupted by US pressure. The British journal Cuba Business claimed that British Petroleum was seemingly dissuaded by US authorities from investing in offshore oil exploration in Cuba despite being initially keenly interested. The Petroleum economist claimed, in September 1992, that the US State Department vigorously discouraged firms like Royal Dutch Shell and Clyde Petroleum from investing in Cuba. "

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>>37079400
>lived in Communism
>total freedom
oh wow

try reading a book sometime

>>37080470
>history proved that communism is murderous and strip the soul out of people
Unlike capitalism?

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>>37080474
Again, don't blame the US. China, Canada, Mexico, and most of the EU freely trades with Cuba. Stop making excuses for why every single example of communism and socialism has ended in failure, it's sad to look at such delusion.

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>>37080427
>Hundreds of Millions
THE NUMBER KEEPS GROWING
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Victorian_Holocausts

>>37080491
When's the last time the US dealt with mass starvation where 10 million plus people died of starvation in a short 5 year time frame like with Ukraine?

>>37080505
Includes mass starvation. Numbers for USSR are speculated around 40 million, China around 60 million. It's over 100 mil

>>37080491

Capitalism wrecks the bottom feeders, accident victims and the stragglers. Communism controls you 24/7 and assigns you where to work, live, who to fuck with and when to die. Capitalism is greedy and has to be bribed, communism has no mercy, its only reflex is to consume.

>>37080491
Capitalism isn't directly responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths.

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Watch these commies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlB_xNOAn1c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJKRTvHrEJ4

>>37080414
>Unless you're part of the ruling party in a commie society it's the same shit
There is no ruling class in Communism, it is a stateless, classless society
>Difference is that you can move up in capitalism
People weren't born in the nomenklatura in the USSR, they were capable of rising up to that through party politics.
>Yes they are Mr "not real communism" child.
By definition it is neither Communist (which even MLs believed) nor Socialist, since the means of production were not owned by the workers, but instead by the non-democratic state. If you want to ignore definitions and just go by what people say, then I guess North Korea is a democracy and we live in an age of the free market.
>Capitalism can, and theoretically without a state as well.
How about to read the actions necessary to even create Capitalism, like the English Enclosures, or the modern extensive corporate welfare and subsidies, or the just the passive act of the state taking the workers' stolen money to pay for people to protect the capitalists property. Thankfully this is all covered in the book I mentioned.
>>37080447
I might be my own person (I'm not) but that doesn't change the huge lose I had taken from people simply because I how I was born.
>And the state or collective is the puppet master in communism. Commies are eternal slaves.
Ah yes, the classic debate tactic of "I'll just ignore what he clearly said a moment ago and repeat my own position until I am correct"
>>37080461
Who has called it a state? There is distribution because people still need to be fed and housed. No one is being forced, everything is distributed through voluntary mutual aid. Your engineering achievements are their own reward, unless you're suggesting a state should exist to enforce patent laws.

>>37080558
Yeah, because you outsource your atrocities to banks and corporations.

>>37080509
Famines are question of technology, not the political system. Even the USSR stopped having famines after the '50s. Whereas the famines in Africa could easily be prevented if the only thing motivating people wasn't whether it was profitable or not.
>>37080531
Capitalism does the exact same as your mythical Communist boogeyman, it just does it through the "invisible hand" with a little help of armed gunmen if you get too uppity.
>>37080558
If the only thing preventing millions from being saved is the profit motive and saving them being unprofitable, and Capitalism is based upon the profit motive, I'd say it's the fault of Capitalism.

>>37080525
>speculated
do you mean made up?
actual Historians know 40 million is Bullshit. Chinese figures come uncited from Deng who wanted to discredit Mao. Scholarly estimates again are much lower than 60M, most agreeing between 15 and 30 M (I.E. as many children that die of hunger every 4-9 years in glorious capitalism today).
"Hundreds" of millions is still total bullshit no matter what.

>>37080610
Banks and corporations don't send train loads of people to work camps.

>>37080572
>There is no ruling class in Communism, it is a stateless, classless society
Bull fucking shit. Then who might I ask, is going to prevent me from starting my own online business? Who is going to monitor me like a 'big brother' and spy on every last thing I do to ensure I don't decide to say fuck you society and just be a capitalist?
>People weren't born in the nomenklatura in the USSR, they were capable of rising up to that through party politics.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>By definition it is neither Communist (which even MLs believed) nor Socialist, since the means of production were not owned by the workers, but instead by the non-democratic state. If you want to ignore definitions and just go by what people say, then I guess North Korea is a democracy and we live in an age of the free market.
They based their societies on Marx. They structured them on Marx. They followed the teachings of Marx. Marx lovers said they were doing a great job for a bit while it was working.
Then you faggots shout "not real communism" when it collapses every time.
>How about to read the actions necessary to even create Capitalism
Agree on capital. That's literally the only fundamental need for a capitalist society to begin. Read Hoppe.

>I might be my own person (I'm not) but that doesn't change the huge lose I had taken from people simply because I how I was born.
Yea, like being born in a communist society compared to a capitalist one. That is what I would consider a huge loss.
>Ah yes, the classic debate tactic of "I'll just ignore what he clearly said a moment ago and repeat my own position until I am correct"
You mean like what you keep doing?

>>37080572

Weird. What you're talking about is anarchism not communism. In communism no property is yours and distribution is forced, by definition.

>>37080634
They would if they weren't regulated.

>>37080619
>Famines are question of technology, not the political system
PFFFFTHAHAHAHAHAHA
Then why was NO ONE else facing a famine at the same time? Collectivization killed over 10 million people in Ukraine.

>>37079400
>What would you do if we lived in Communism and had total freedom? how would your life be different?

I'd be organising a revolution to install a less faggy system.

>>37080633
10 million minimum died in Ukraine from the Holodomor.
30 million minimum died from the great pests campaign.

Stop defending the systematic genocide known as communism.

>>37080619

The "invisible hand" is no one's property, it's the combined judgement of millions of traders. It only ever controls prices and it does so according to supply/demand. Please read definitions before you use terms.

>>37080561
>MUH 999 BILLION TRILLION INNOCENTS CHILDREN MURDERED BY GODLESS COMMIES.
Americans have high standards for professors.

>>37080688
>these deaths never happened, they just chose to stop existing simultaneously somehow!

>>37080653
No they wouldn't.
If no one buys shit anymore because they're either dead or stuck in a camp then nothing would be profitable.

>>37080688
Statistics are a good argument. Your active gesturing and animal noises aren't.

>>37080708
That's where globalism comes to play.

>>37080684
I don't think you know what minimum means
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
>2.4 to 12 million deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine (4 pests is part of this)
>15 to 30 million (scholarly estimates)
minimum means the smaller number.

>>37080750
>guys let's not count old people they would have died anyway
Lol
Over 10 million people disappeared from the Ukrainian record books. Gone without a fucking trace.

>>37080644
>Then who might I ask, is going to prevent me from starting my own online business? Who is going to monitor me like a 'big brother' and spy on every last thing I do to ensure I don't decide to say fuck you society and just be a capitalist?
Absolutely no one. You'll just be as successful and taken as serious as someone trying to sell snow to eskimos.
>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Real showed me with those hot opinions.
>They based their societies on Marx. They structured them on Marx. They followed the teachings of Marx. Marx lovers said they were doing a great job for a bit while it was working.
I'm not a Marxist, but try reading what actual Marxists have to say about ML ideology.
>Then you faggots shout "not real communism" when it collapses every time.
The Catalonian and Ukranian Anarchists said it was not real communism long before the USSR was close to collapsing.
>That's literally the only fundamental need for a capitalist society to begin
If we're defining capitalism as the economic system that depends primarily on wage labor and exists to generate profits, then no, it requires much more than some startup funds.
>Yea, like being born in a communist society compared to a capitalist one. That is what I would consider a huge loss.
Not even a counter-argument.
>You mean like what you keep doing?
I'm actually coherently responding to your points and not pretending like you never said them.
>>37080646
Communism is anarchistic, Anarchism is just the method of achieving it without going through a state.
>>37080670
Because the entire world doesn't all have the same weather patterns. Collectivization was bad and did contribute, but it wasn't the cause of the famine.
>>37080686
Didn't say it was someone's property, it's just the way the system "non-violently" forces someone to do certain things.

>Communism
>Freedom

Yeah, I don't think. Unless you're specifically referring to Anarcho-communism than no thanks to that too. It's just a glorified hippy commune.

It's cute how whenever the communist death toll comes up the commie argument is always "well they killed a lot, but it was a bit less than that ok"

>>37080561
>2 videos
>no arguments
hmm really makes you think

>>37080776
>lets blame every death from 1917-1991 in the Soviet union on Communism
>still refuses to admit he doesn't know what a minimum is.

>>37080708
You think the workers of the glorious state led capitalism of China buy all the iPhones they manufacture?

>>37080777
>Absolutely no one. You'll just be as successful and taken as serious as someone trying to sell snow to eskimos.
Then what you're looking for is an ancap society dumbass. If you're not going to erase capital from existence, then it's ancap, not ancom.
>Real showed me with those hot opinions.
You said people have upward movement in the USSR despite how all the leaders of the USSR were born into the party.
>I'm not a Marxist, but try reading what actual Marxists have to say about ML ideology.
Marxists spout propaganda and shit.
>The Catalonian and Ukranian Anarchists said it was not real communism long before the USSR was close to collapsing.
Denial
>If we're defining capitalism as the economic system that depends primarily on wage labor and exists to generate profits, then no, it requires much more than some startup funds.
Not at all. Capitalism only needs to define capital, from then on it begins to assign capital based on definition. It usually starts by tying the value of said capital to gold or silver.
>Not even a counter-argumen
It is when every communist country has been a disaster
>I'm actually coherently responding to your points and not pretending like you never said them.
Holodomor

>Because the entire world doesn't all have the same weather patterns. Collectivization was bad and did contribute, but it wasn't the cause of the famine.
It absolutely was. 10 million died in Ukraine but not nearly as many throughout the rest of the Soviet Union. It was systematic.

>>37080816
China is still in its industrialization phase though

>>37080806
No, I agree, lets blame all deaths from starvation in the soviet union and China and compare that to all deaths of starvation in western Europe, the US, and Canada in the same time period.
I wonder what number will be fucking bigger.

Hint: It's not the one associated with capitalism.

>>37080777

It's not the fucking "system" you fucking retard. Read up on economics. Government only instills laws. Invisible hand is not part of the government, it's a natural occurence in any free market. Want to resist the invisible hand? The easiest way is just NOT AJUSTING YOUR PRICE TO THE MARKET. Sell at a loss or get less customers due to high prices. Why do I have to explain it to you? Why do you use the term without knowing what it is, you stupid fucking kid?

>>37080776
>in 1932, 10 million people died in a socialist famine (the last soviet famine) brought about by collectivization and bad harvests
>meanwhile 3 million children die of hunger every year in capitalism, and 800 million go hungry. just as a matter of course.

>>37080906
>3 million children die of hunger every year
b-but its not happening in my rich western country so it's not real c-capitalism!

>>37080906
>>37080949
So you're comparing 9/10 of the world's population in 2017 to a country losing about 1/3 of its people way back in 1932?
And yet that number for back in 1932 for a single country is still higher than the 3 million children that die a year today in poor as dirt countries like Africa?
Really makes me think

>>37080980
countries throughout Africa is what I mean to say.

>>37080830
>Then what you're looking for is an ancap society dumbass. If you're not going to erase capital from existence, then it's ancap, not ancom.
What is erasing capital from existence? Communism is about making Capitalism obsolete, not illegal.
>You said people have upward movement in the USSR despite how all the leaders of the USSR were born into the party.
Anyone could join the party. Obviously having connections was important, but it wasn't some closed aristocracy.
>Marxists spout propaganda and shit.
Nice argument, slick.
>Denial
Denial of fucking what? I mentioned two groups who didn't believe what the USSR was doing was Communism while they were doing it. How about Yugoslavia, or the Hungarian Revolution, or Eurocommunism?
>Not at all. Capitalism only needs to define capital, from then on it begins to assign capital based on definition. It usually starts by tying the value of said capital to gold or silver.
What on earth are you talking about?
>It is when every communist country has been a disaster
They were ML, and I wouldn't call going from literal Feudalism to space a disaster.
>Holodomor
Was a famine, partially acerbated by the collectivization policies.
>It absolutely was. 10 million died in Ukraine but not nearly as many throughout the rest of the Soviet Union. It was systematic.
Are you implying it was a genocide?
>>37080848
What is so hard to understand that instead of government guns pointing guns at you and telling you that now you have to move here, or work here, or buy this, instead you have the market doing the same thing, and instead of being shot, you just starve.

>>37081052
Market has no consciousness or motive. It is controlled by natural supply and demand.

>>37080980
yes, 1 year of exceptional circumstances in 1932 vs every year as normal in capitalism in 2017 where technology and agriculture is vastly advanced,
and to be particular, there have obviously been famines bigger than the Holodomor in capitalist countries like those in Iran, India, and the Republic of China.
read this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

>>37081052
>What is erasing capital from existence? Communism is about making Capitalism obsolete, not illegal.
Hard to make something vastly superior to your own system "obsolete"
>Anyone could join the party. Obviously having connections was important, but it wasn't some closed aristocracy.
Well it clearly was, since again, only people born into connections made it anywhere significant in the USSR and China.
>Denial of fucking what? I mentioned two groups who didn't believe what the USSR was doing was Communism while they were doing it. How about Yugoslavia, or the Hungarian Revolution, or Eurocommunism?
Again, they were in denial of it being communism despite it hitting all the bullet points.
>What on earth are you talking about?
Read Hoppe
>They were ML, and I wouldn't call going from literal Feudalism to space a disaster.
How's that soviet bloc doing right now huh? Oh, worst countries to live in through Europe? Fancy that.
>Was a famine
Genocide caused by communism. Either intentional or not, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter.
>Are you implying it was a genocide?
Yea, it fucking was. Or are you going to say it was merely a (((coincidence))) that it occurred right around the time that Ukraine separatists were gaining influence?

> vs every year as normal in capitalism in 2017
No, every year as normal PERIOD. They'd be starving no matter their economic system because they have nothing there to live on.
Meanwhile, starvation in communist countries was enormous compared to other developed nations.

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Hmm wow this truly makes me think

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It would seem that my noggin has been taken for a brisk morning joggin

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Huh, what a very interesting and strange coincidence but surely nothing more!

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>>37080470
Can more people write what they would do if they lived in Communism, rather than this /pol/ tier amatuer genocide investigation?
I would spend my time brewing mead and rice wine and going on trips all over the world. I'd get a sailboat and Cruise the coast of Africa.

>>37081130
>>37081140
>>37081148
These are actually embarrassing

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>>37081234
The commie says behind a layer of tears.

>>37081148
I extend a challenge to you: Find a publication that describes itself as Marxist (or anarchist, democratic-socialist, if that's easier, basically far left, not liberal/socdem stuff) from before the crisis that called venezuela a socialist state. not merely an endorsement of the government, but actually called venezuela Socialist. the far left has always been critical of the Venezuelan regime.

>>37081084
>markets can't and aren't manipulated
>>37081118
>Hard to make something vastly superior to your own system "obsolete"
>wageslavery, debtslavery, having to worry about starving, being homeless, losing your livelihood, having no control over your livelihood or its products is better than the opposite
>Well it clearly was, since again, only people born into connections made it anywhere significant in the USSR and China.
Hmm, just like Capitalism?
>Again, they were in denial of it being communism despite it hitting all the bullet points.
Right, because actual Communists know less about Communism than some Chilean dictator worshiping ancap. I guess the USSR really was stateless, classless, and moneyless and the workers really did control the means of production even though you just said the nomenklatura was a closed system.
>How's that soviet bloc doing right now huh? Oh, worst countries to live in through Europe? Fancy that.
Not sure how mentioning countries who went to shit after they stopped being communist is a point in your favor.
>Genocide caused by communism. Either intentional or not, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter.
And the genocides caused by Capitalism? Do those not count? Do all the imperialist wars not count even though they act to control resources to sell on the market, or provide profit to the MIC, or open new markets?
>Yea, it fucking was. Or are you going to say it was merely a (((coincidence))) that it occurred right around the time that Ukraine separatists were gaining influence?
Historians disagree that it was deliberate.
>No, every year as normal PERIOD. They'd be starving no matter their economic system because they have nothing there to live on.
And why do they have that problem but the West doesn't?
>>37081148
Who would have thought a Social Democratic state that is funded off of oil will collapse with oil tanks. I guess it's really Socialism's fault even though the means of production stayed in private hands.

>>37081170
I would run a free healthcare clinic. Also would grow some quality tobacco/weed in my backyard.

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>>37081252
Salon
>>37081257
>wageslavery, debtslavery, having to worry about starving, being homeless, losing your livelihood, having no control over your livelihood or its products is better than the opposite
Absolutely better than slavery to your country, since all of those things can be avoided in capitalism but slavery to your community cannot in communism.
>mm, just like Capitalism?
Nope, I make about 30k/yr more (adjusted for inflation to current wages) than my parents did.
>Right, because actual Communists know less about Communism than some Chilean dictator worshiping ancap
I'm not ancap you tard. Ancap is the second stupidest system on the planet.
Right behind communism :)
>Not sure how mentioning countries who went to shit after they stopped being communist is a point in your favor.
Because there has never been a successful communist country.
>And the genocides caused by Capitalism? Do those not count?
None were committed in the name of capitalism.
>Historians disagree that it was deliberate.
Most historians agree it was
>And why do they have that problem but the West doesn't?
Because Geography, dumbass. The Northern Hemisphere tends to have a lot of nice resources.
>Who would have thought a Social Democratic state that is funded off of oil will collapse with oil tanks. I guess it's really Socialism's fault even though the means of production stayed in private hands.
It kind of is socialism's fault when the country was otherwise very successful beforehand.

>>37081328
>salon
>marxist
stop being a dishonest cuck.

>>37081257

You're a fucking retard. You deserve the life you have right now. Feel free to bring le communist utopia to your life. I'm just gonna run to the fucking woods and live better there than any of you miseducated commie fucks.

>>37081343
http://www.salon.com/topic/socialism/
You cannot possibly say they aren't with all that shilling.

>>37081357
Salon is just shitty left-wing populist crap, not marxist.

>>37081408
They're anti hillary style democrat and have been pro socialism for 5 years.

>>37081328
>Salon is far-leftist
How fucking ignorant of terms can you be?
>>37081328
>Absolutely better than slavery to your country, since all of those things can be avoided in capitalism but slavery to your community cannot in communism.
No one's under any obligation to be apart of a commune in communism, they can go fuck off and live in the woods if they want. Whereas you can only avoid those shitty things in capitalism the same way you can in feudalism: by being the ones at the top making the system shit for everyone else.
>Nope, I make about 30k/yr more (adjusted for inflation to current wages) than my parents did.
That doesn't mean you're actually anywhere close to having any power or influence in the system.
>Because there has never been a successful communist country.
I guess getting to space and winning a war isn't a mark of success :^)
>None were committed in the name of capitalism.
Because Capitalism isn't an ideology (except for ancaps), it's simply a system. When a war is done for economic reasons, it's done for Capitalism.
>Most historians agree it was
[citation needed]
>Because Geography, dumbass. The Northern Hemisphere tends to have a lot of nice resources.
The Congo is the most resource rich country on the earth.
>It kind of is socialism's fault when the country was otherwise very successful beforehand.
>it's socialism's fault even though it had nothing to do with socialism
>but because I'm an obstinate american I'll call social democracy socialism anyway, because fuck universally accepted definitions
>>37081346
Plato would be proud of that intelligent and dignified counter-argument.
>>37081357
I see nothing there concerning workers' control of the means of production, or the labor theory of value, or anything else that isn't socdem populist or radical liberation retardation.

People are naturally greedy. Even infants as young as two years old display tendencies of possession. To hold possessions is to hold capital. And one will always desire to have more than just the bare minimum, whether that's more food, more living space, more resources to pursue their hobbies. Resources are also capital. Since people are naturally selfish they naturally lay claim to things they desire. And to claim something is to deny another opportunity of its use. So they in turn will attempt to barter with their resources in an attempt to gain other resources they desire. This, is capitalism. Communism cannot ensure that everyone's needs are met without a government. They cannot prevent people from taking possession of resources without a state. Greed cannot be stopped by good faith alone.

>>37081451
>How fucking ignorant of terms can you be?
It clearly is.
>No one's under any obligation to be apart of a commune in communism, they can go fuck off and live in the woods if they want. Whereas you can only avoid those shitty things in capitalism the same way you can in feudalism: by being the ones at the top making the system shit for everyone else.
You can absolutely live in the woods under capitalism too. Some people choose to do so, though obviously it's difficult.
>That doesn't mean you're actually anywhere close to having any power or influence in the system.
No, but it means I can live a very nice and comfortable life, choosing to buy things I would like to buy, choosing to not buy things I don't want to, choosing to own my own nice little home that I can expand upon and so on. My life is not dictated by others.
>I guess getting to space and winning a war isn't a mark of success :^)
If you're counting Vietnam as a success for the USSR, make sure to count Afghanistan as a success for the US. Also, when you look at the quality of spacecraft used by the US and USSR there's no comparison. US spacecraft were far more stable, and satellites / space stations lasted far longer in orbit compared to USSR counterparts, which were hastily rushed out the door in order to send a message.
>Because Capitalism isn't an ideology
It is. Though most capitalists are actually libertarians.
>[citation needed]
Google it
>The Congo is the most resource rich country on the earth.
With horrible maintenance and leadership. Kind of like Venezuela, except Venezuela's resources are worth far far more.
>it's socialism's fault even though it had nothing to do with socialism
They called it socialism.
They ran on the socialist ticket
They seized the means of production
It was fucking socialism.

>I see nothing there concerning workers' control of the means of production
Plenty of shilling for the economic system itself.

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What a compelling tidbit of information this is!

>>37081526
>So they in turn will attempt to barter with their resources in an attempt to gain other resources they desire. This, is capitalism
No, that's Socialism.
>They cannot prevent people from taking possession of resources without a state
Nor do they need to, it is the state that allows Capitalism to exist.
>>37081528
>It clearly is.
Yes, I'm sure Marx and Kropotkin would've loved reading their articles.
>You can absolutely live in the woods under capitalism too
All those woods are privately owned, mainly for property speculation, or they're publicly owned but illegal to live on them.
>No, but it means I can live a very nice and comfortable life, choosing to buy things I would like to buy, choosing to not buy things I don't want to, choosing to own my own nice little home that I can expand upon and so on
So, because you've swallowed the lie that materialism and consumerism is all you need, that means you're free?
>My life is not dictated by others.
They don't need to directly with guns or words, market forces do it just fine for them.
>If you're counting Vietnam as a success for the USSR
I was referring to WWII.
>It is. Though most capitalists are actually libertarians.
You don't have to believe in anything or have any high ideals to want to make as much money as possible. Having ideals gets in the way of that.
>They called it socialism. They ran on the socialist ticket
Irrelevant. North Korea isn't a democracy.
>They seized the means of production
Factually untrue. The government didn't even seize like the ML states did. There's plenty of private property in Venezuela.
>Plenty of shilling for the economic system itself.
Shilling for socdem gidsmedats and bernie "free college is a revolution" sanders.

My best friend is a communist and it's the one main thing I hate about him.
>spends hours daily reading communist/Marxist philosophy
respectable enough
>posts commie memes constantly
I hate it but comes with the package I guess
>gets money from his parents daily to do the things he likes, just every morning "hey mom can I have 20 dollars?"
I mean, come on.
So I'm shit poor, honestly I'm not sure how I'll survive the coming academic year without getting a job too, but it's a masters degree, stressed about it.
Anyway he's like
>hey senpai, can you donate to my friend's Patreon? He's starting a new thing
And he pays some girl for nudes, like 10 dollars at a time.
Whenever I used to be stressed or overwhelmed with my shitty job I had to work too afford my education he was like "why don't you just quit?".
It feels like money is literally not a thing to him.
And he loves particularly branded things and views the "basic" lines with disdain and the honest belief that it's dangerous.
I started dumpster diving to eat and he thinks it's gross. I show him the fresh packages and everything and he's like "but...it came from a bin so no".
So you know how in communism you're supposed to do jobs that you enjoy but still contribute to society. So I asked him what he sees himself doing. His answer?
An academic.

Really communists put a bad taste in my mouth. All his communist friends seem similar too.

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>>37081654
>Yes, I'm sure Marx and Kropotkin would've loved reading their articles.
Marx is the dumb fuck that came up with an idea for an economic system that has never worked once, so possibly.
>All those woods are privately owned, mainly for property speculation, or they're publicly owned but illegal to live on them.
Never monitored, same with the deserts in the US
>So, because you've swallowed the lie that materialism and consumerism is all you need, that means you're free?
Not all I need, no. I have love, compassion, friends, family (whereas communism tells you to abandon family for the sake of the community) and so on. However, things make me happy. Free speech makes me happy. I'm certainly happy that I own my own computer that I can go on 4chan and discuss how shitty communism is. Couldn't do that in China, Cuba, or North Korea that's for sure.
>They don't need to directly with guns or words, market forces do it just fine for them.
Not really. I choose what I want. In a communist society, that choice is made for you.
>I was referring to WWII.
Ah yes, the war that the Soviets depended quite a bit on lend lease and fighting an enemy who was on several fronts yet still suffered the second greatest casualities just behind China.
>You don't have to believe in anything or have any high ideals to want to make as much money as possible. Having ideals gets in the way of that.
Untrue. Ideals largely dictate how you live your life. Capitalism is the belief in a free society where government does not dictate your market.
>Irrelevant. North Korea isn't a democracy.
Still communist. Still the single worst country to live in on the planet.
>Factually untrue. The government didn't even seize like the ML states did. There's plenty of private property in Venezuela.
Not in terms of production.
>Shilling for socdem gidsmedats and bernie "free college is a revolution" sanders.
Exactly, a dumb commie cuck.

>>37081654
How the hell is bartering Socialism?
Bartering in and of itself is the cornerstone of Capitalism.

Also, how can a communist society exist when it's people's natural tendency to be capitalists?

>>37081729
>it's people's natural tendency to be capitalists
[citation needed]

>>37081746
Survival of the fittest
Evolution
Natural selection

These all generally circle around the basis of the strong survive / are successful and the weak perish. That's basically what you get with capitalism, and most people (myself included) are fine with that because it gives incentive to work harder.

>>37081771
>Survival of the fittest
>Evolution
>Natural selection
Dude, that is anarchy, not capitalism.

>>37081798
Actually that is anarcho capitalism, which forms the initial basis of other forms of capitalism.

>>37079400
>What would you do if we lived in Communism

Line up for 8 hours waiting for flour and salt, only to find there is none left. On the way home I get picked up by the authorities and thrown into a gulag because my neighbour made up false accusations about me being a foreign spy. I am gradually worked to death.

~ Fin.

>>37081746
I literally just explained it.
People instinctually claim possessions. It's something that even infants do. "Mine!" Is a very common childhood phrase. Taking possession of a resource denies another person of that resource. That other person will then attempt to use resources that THEY have claimed in an attempt to obtain the resource they cannot have. Bartering is capitalism. Thus, it is people's natural tendency to be capitalists.

>>37079466
>oh no, the goy is waking up, better come up with an arbitrary distinction so they know they won't be affected as negatively as they think

>>37081668
Sounds like you hate the things you're forced to do under Capitalism. Maybe you should tell him to stop being a conspicuously consuming bourgeois twat and rec you some literature.
>>37081725
>Never monitored, same with the deserts in the US
If you want to be a hunter-gatherer it might work, but if you actually want to do something with the land other than sleep in a tent on it, you'll be caught.
>(whereas communism tells you to abandon family for the sake of the community)
No, it tells you to abandon the artificial family that's designed for efficiency and actually have a real family in a real community.
>Free speech makes me happy. I'm certainly happy that I own my own computer that I can go on 4chan and discuss how shitty communism is
Well congratulations, you could also do that in Communism.
>Couldn't do that in China, Cuba, or North Korea that's for sure.
Yes, that might be why we say they're not Communist. Which doesn't even mention how China is a capitalist nightmare or that North Korea doesn't even believe in Marxism or Communism anymore.
>Not really. I choose what I want.
What you're offered. It's as much a choice as voting.
>In a communist society, that choice is made for you.
>I'm going to keep conflating communism with ML states even though my opponent has repeatedly said he does not advocate for that nor do most Leftists
>Ah yes, the war that the Soviets depended quite a bit on lend lease and fighting an enemy who was on several fronts yet still suffered the second greatest casualities just behind China.
They won where France lost.
>Untrue. Ideals largely dictate how you live your life. Capitalism is the belief in a free society where government does not dictate your market.
Pure idealistic nonsense and a complete misuse of terms. Read the book I posted, it's even written by a pro-market anarchist.
>Still communist. Still the single worst country to live in on the planet.
They abandoned Communism years ago. Their official ideology is Juche.

>>37081831
So shouldn't kraterocracy be the most natural way if we are only talking about the most basic human emotions?

>>37081771
You seem to have a very tenuous grasp of these concepts. The idea that capitalism is some sort of meritocracy of individuals is completely unfounded. In animal society when the "alpha" animal begets a weak individual they are relegated to the bottom of the hierarchy. In human society these hierarchies take on a social characteristic. Imagine the same scenario with a wealthy intelligent business man. If the father passes on an apartment building to his son then his son is able to generate money and survive regardless of his own ability. I hardly see how this is some sort of application of those principals other than the broad sense that all life is inherently part of them.

>>37079875
Have you ever heard a communist's opinions on the subject that wasn't leftypol you delusional moron? Just because some significant figures of communism wanted the people to retain their right to bear arms doesn't mean the average college communist isn't terrified of them

>>37081725
>Not in terms of production.
Really, these seized all the factories and mines and farms?
>Exactly, a dumb commie cuck.
If you just want to disgard proper definitions and just throw around insults then I'd be perfectly capable of following suit. Unfortunately I have a feeling you'd win if the argument degraded to that level.
>>37081729
>it's people's natural tendency to be followers of an economic since that was born in the 1800s
Bartering isn't specifically Socialism, but receiving the full fruit of your labor and deciding what you'd like to do with it is.
>>37081771
Humanity has survived and advanced through cooperation, not competition.
>>37081831
Owning whatever you work to obtain is the core of Socialism. Capitalism is owning what others have worked to obtain.
>>37081921
The average college "communist" is a radical liberal with a fetish for red.

>>37081888
>If you want to be a hunter-gatherer it might work, but if you actually want to do something with the land other than sleep in a tent on it, you'll be caught.
Not really, again, plenty of people do it and the most they ever get told to do is just leave. It's often illegal for hobos to sleep under bridges too but they do it anyway.
>No, it tells you to abandon the artificial family that's designed for efficiency and actually have a real family in a real community.
It tells you to abandon your ACTUAL family you faggot. Biology naturally makes us desire to stick with our families for many good reasons.
>Well congratulations, you could also do that in Communism.
False. None of those things have ever been possible in a communist society.
>Yes, that might be why we say they're not Communist.
They clearly were though.
>What you're offered. It's as much a choice as voting.
It's a choice. Communism doesn't give you a choice. It's a system for the lazy and stupid.
>I'm going to keep conflating communism with ML states
Because they were communist
>They won where France lost.
France had a horribly outdated military and attempted to use WW1 tactics. They were not prepared for Blitzkireg and served as an example, just as they largely did in WW1 using 19th centruy war tactics
>Pure idealistic nonsense and a complete misuse of terms. Read the book I posted, it's even written by a pro-market anarchist.
Read Hoppe
>They abandoned Communism years ago. Their official ideology is Juche.
Nah, they're communist

>>37081906
Capitalism allows you to become the 'alpha' of a particular business, or even the society by amounting enough capital using your skillsets and the skillsets of others. It is inherently a natural translation of society from biological desires.

>>37081888
You keep spouting that they're no true communist countries, without even wondering why they deviated from their original goal in the first place. If communism is so great, why has no country ever sustained it? Plenty of countries have started in the name of and with the principals of communism.

>>37079400
I'd spend all day in front of my computer, alone, just like I do now. Unless there was a nationalist militia forming up to bring back the borders and protect the nation and its culture from "total freedom of movement" in which case I could try to grow a pair and join it

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>>37081964
>Really, these seized all the factories and mines and farms?
They seized private factories to quite an extent and seized control of the economy, yes.
>f you just want to disgard proper definitions and just throw around insults then I'd be perfectly capable of following suit. Unfortunately I have a feeling you'd win if the argument degraded to that level.
Well you might want to. It's not like you're winning here either. Much like communism in fact!
>Humanity has survived and advanced through cooperation, not competition.
Is that why humanity has seen the greatest technological advancements in history during times of warfare? Or the cold war when the US and USSR were competing with one another?
Because going to war with another country is hardly what I'd call "cooperation". At most you'll see cooperation between countries mutually competing against others. Competition has time and time again bread the greatest degree of success in society.

Remember that if you see red, knock em dead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqPXWxt_WMo

>P-People starve to death today! Capitalism BTFO!

What you brainlets don't realize is that a capitalist government does not take on the responsibility of feeding people. Communist governments do, and they constantly fail.

Blaming capitalism for starving Africans isn't truthful, capitalism doesn't promise to feed people, it just promises to give them the means to buy food.

You can however blame a communist government for people starving because a communist government promises to provide for its people.


P.S.

Capitalism is now feeding more people today than any other system in history. It is also keeping more people alive today than any other system in history.

>>37081964
>Owning whatever you work to obtain is the core of socialism
What in the hell? Now you're trying to twist facts on me. Classic communist deception. How is SOCIALism owning everything you worked for? By definition, socialism takes your possessions and distributes them to society. Socialism is merely a step below communism, and neither allow total possession of your own property.

>>37079400
>thread about how communism is good
>made by an young adult american

rofl, every time

>>37082064
Come on, fellow robot, why don't you want to work so Stacy, Chad and their 12 children can have a more comfortable life? From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs, you don't need as much as the normies, they have families to support, now go work.

>>37081976
>It tells you to abandon your ACTUAL family you faggot. Biology naturally makes us desire to stick with our families for many good reasons.
Stop getting your information from Brave New World. Not even the Soviets destroyed the family.
>They clearly were though.
Did they or did they not achieve a fucking classless, stateless, moneyless society where the workers' owned/controlled the means of production?
>It's a choice. Communism doesn't give you a choice. It's a system for the lazy and stupid.
More hot opinions.
>Because they were communist
One very specific and universally disliked type.
>Read Hoppe
I'd rather not read a hypocrite who wants to create a voluntary, peaceful society but who thinks everyone who disagrees with his vision of society should be "removed".
>Nah, they're communist
Nah, you're a retard.
>>37082001
Of course I've wondered. It's because they thought a state could serve the interests of any entity except itself. They had the absurd idea that an all power state would wither away.
>>37082012
>They seized private factories to quite an extent and seized control of the economy, yes.
Nationalizing certain things is not seizing the means of production.
>Is that why humanity has seen the greatest technological advancements in history during times of warfare? Or the cold war when the US and USSR were competing with one another?
Because going to war with another country is hardly what I'd call "cooperation". At most you'll see cooperation between countries mutually competing against others. Competition has time and time again bread the greatest degree of success in society.
None of those things are achieved by solitary individuals, but by very large groups of people working towards a common goal. That common goal just often happens to be the defeat of some enemy.

>>37082143
Without a state, there is only moral obligation for me to work. And since people never completely share the same ideas and thinking patterns, people will never share the same morals. Or have the same moral obligations. The only way to enforce the same moral obligations is by having a state mandate everyone have the same morals, by force.

>>37082051
marx identified communism as a classless moneyless governmentless society. The communist governments you speak of are people who take marx's diagnosis of capitalism and try to solve the issues using extreme government force.

honestly dude im not even leftist...

>>37082200
Ah yes, I'm sure you won't be ostracized as a leech upon society if you refuse to work. According to you in capitalism you can either work or starve but in communism you can either uhhh work or starve because nobody will want anything to do with you

>>37082200
Socialism/Communism has so much potential if it were reinvented in the modern age.

>>37082183
>Stop getting your information from Brave New World. Not even the Soviets destroyed the family.
They largely did. They taught people to prioritize the USSR over family. Mao even had people hunt down their middle class parents and have them taken away to work camps.
>Did they or did they not achieve a fucking classless, stateless, moneyless society where the workers' owned/controlled the means of production?
Doesn't matter, they followed the manifesto to the T and everyone agreed they were communist til they went to shit.
>More hot opinions.
More hot facts, as communism has constantly failed.
>One very specific and universally disliked type.
For good reason
>I'd rather not read a hypocrite who wants to create a voluntary, peaceful society but who thinks everyone who disagrees with his vision of society should be "removed".
Wow, so you don't want to read more into libertarianism because you think it's not a great system? Well that's kind of like how I don't want to read more into communist authors because I KNOW it's a shit system!
>Nah, you're a retard.
Says the idiot that supports a system of slavery which has never worked.
>Nationalizing certain things is not seizing the means of production.
Yes it is
>None of those things are achieved by solitary individuals, but by very large groups of people working towards a common goal. That common goal just often happens to be the defeat of some enemy.
So what you're saying is, and I'll quote myself here, "At most you'll see cooperation between countries mutually competing against others"

>>37082229
So much potential to fail again, as it has hundreds of times, yes.

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>Ask a capitalism for proof that capitalism works
>They will provide you a list of successful countries that use one form of capitalism or another along with a time table of how long they've been capitalist and information on how free their market is

>Ask a socialist / communist for proof that communism can work
>"well, uhh, it's never been tried, but it would totally work yknow. Prove that it wouldn't, yea, burden of proof isn't on me haha"

>>37082223
Who is the bigger leech then? Chad and his family have no benefit to me, and only make me work that much harder to support them. Are they not leeching off my labor? If I face social ostrazation for not working for someone else, I am just as much of a slave as you claim capitalists to be.

>>37082216
His plan for communism went through stages. To get to that stage required extreme government force.

"Dictatorship of the proletariat". Its this stage that people say "isn't real communism" it was part of his plan, except it never ends because what kind of dictators relinquish power?

>>37082064
>By definition, socialism takes your possessions and distributes them to society
Stop repeating this retarded American neocon definition. Socialism is the workers' control of the means of production, through their control each worker gets exactly what he puts into it. There is no redistribution of wealth, except that gained in the previous rigged system. It is SOCIALism because the MoP is socially owned. "To each according to their contribution"
>>37082143
Sounds like you're describing Capitalism anon. Come on fellow robot, why don't you want to wagecuck so your boss can buy a bigger mansion while you live in a tiny apartment so his kids can all go to college and make double what you make when they're 22 and you're 50. It's a fair system, the hardest working wins; your boss is handing you a favor giving you a job.
>>37082232
>They largely did
Literally making shit up.
>Doesn't matter, they followed the manifesto to the T and everyone agreed they were communist til they went to shit.
>it doesn't matter they literally didn't achieve anything that marks a communist or socialist society
Either you're extremely dishonest or very good at trolling.
>For good reason
Indeed
>Wow, so you don't want to read more into libertarianism because you think it's not a great system?
I used to be a libertarian, then I realized that the government is only half the problem.
>Says the idiot that supports a system of slavery which has never worked.
I'm not a Capitalist. Nor a Marxist-Leninist.
>Yes it is
Then I guess almost every country in existence is Socialist.

>>37082323
>a country's success is measure in how much material shit its people can buy or how much wealth is hoarded by the elite instead of how free or happy the people are
You ain't going to fool me rabbi

>>37082327
And and his family will be working also, they're not just laying around doing nothing.

>>37082343
>Literally making shit up.
Is what you're doing, yes.
>>it doesn't matter they literally didn't achieve anything that marks a communist or socialist society
>Either you're extremely dishonest or very good at trolling.
They achieved all the core tenants, which lead to massive failure for their nations. Time and time again.
>I used to be a libertarian, then I realized that the government is only half the problem.
You used to be a libertarian, then you stopped taking responsibility for your own problems and started to believe that your failure in life is due to other people. Never gonna make it.
>I'm not a Capitalist. Nor a Marxist-Leninist.
Yea, you support a system that has never worked instead.
>Then I guess almost every country in existence is Socialist.
Some socialist policies in every country, sure. They need to be erased though, they're a problem for markets.

>>37082369
A country's success is how free they are (right to free speech, right to bear arms etc.), the quality of life index, life expectancy, amount of food available to them, happiness index etc.
Oh look, no communist country even makes it into the top 100.

>>37082384
The kids are.
From each according to their ability.
Due to their high need and low ability, they'll be leeching off of you and others.

>>37082343
If the means of production are socially owned, how are they mine and only mine? If it's owned by the society, then I definitely do not own anything personally.

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>>37082369
>Still can't name a successful communist or socialist country, just that it "might work in theory maybe haha"
Proved my point, retard.

>>37082343
>Come on fellow robot, why don't you want to wagecuck so your boss
I'd rather have one jew be rich than all the normies be happy and live comfortably

>>37082327
Yea, that was my point, I was being ironic

>>37082384
His family is his 5 children you illiterate moron

>>37082251
I mean what do you consider failure? It's not like capitalism sounds like much of a success story itself.

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>>37080318
>Or are you talking about the country where you have to bring your own bed sheets and light bulbs to hospitals because they're so poorly managed?
Wtf are you smoking? WHO said Cuba has one of best health cares in the world, better than in the USA

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>>37082494
>Switzerland
>USA
>Canada
>UK
>France (though they're going to shit, but that's because of loose borders and democracy)
>Scandinavian countries
>Italy
>Japan (especially Japan, probably the biggest capitalism success story in history)
>Hong Kong
>South Korea

Capitalism has so many success stories you could write hundreds of books about them.
Communism has none.

>>37082510
Here's a nice article, have a good read about it
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/432680/myth-cuban-health-care

There are plenty of documented cases where cuban hospitals are horribly maintained.

>>37081130
>"Marx made up fancy words like dialectics"
That's hegel you dumb fucking /pol/nigger
Jesus christ /pol/ is filled with illiterate people like this who have not a slightest idea of what they try to debunk and still try to

>>37082568
>haha I will nitpick one part and ignore the rest

And another thing, a moneyless society will NEVER exist, because currency can be literally anything, even food. The simple fact that bartering exists means that communism will never be possible .

>>37082494
Venezuela is the most recent glorious failure
Although capitalism has also failed, it manages to succeed, whereas there is not one single first world communist country.

>>37081274
Hey, I plan to study medicine, so I'll probably work in such a clinic, also always wanted to play music

>>37082519
>many success stories
Success stories at the expense of others. Capitalism is a few successful countries that advertise capitalism, while the rest of the world rakes landfills of household waste.

>>37082626
>Switzerland, Canada, Scandi countries, Italy, Japan, Hong Kong and South Korea

None of those countries became rich at another countries expense.

>>37082626
Nigger you think I give a fuck?
Competition drives the world forward and it creates the greatest economic atmospheres anywhere.
Also, capitalism benefits capitalism. The US was a very successful country even during its isolationist years, it does not require exploiting others. That said, trade between capitalist nations only serves to bolster nations. Switzerland is a great example of this, where they're basically a capitalist trade hub of Europe.

>>37082626
Success is only defined by failure. If no one failed, there'd be no success.

>>37081541
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Thousands-Protest-Chiles-Pinochet-Era-Private-Pension-System-20170326-0009.html
Chile is a shithole, Cuba has better health care system even though its a much poorer country

>>37082669
see
>>37082554
Cuba's health care system is shit.

But it's funny that you still can't defend how fucking ass Venezuela is.

>>37082656
>Italy, Japan, Hong Kong and South Korea
A showcase of capitalism sponsored by those who devastated half of the world in the name of capitalism. There will be no US - there will not be these satellites

>>37082738
Japan, besides the first decade of reconstruction, is largely its own success story. Same with South Korea, and HK relative to the UK.
They just happened to be close trade partners obviously, but that's at no one's loss.

>>37082554
>He thinks an article from some right-wing nutto debunk World Health Organization reports
kek
>>37082568
I won't bother reading the rest because I know /pol/ is a cesspool and nothing intelligent ever comes out of there, why waste time
A good tactic in debate is to throw alot of difficult to verify arguments, like the dialectics one, people don't have time to look all up and see that those are bullshit

>>37082767
>kek
>He thinks cuban hospitals are well managed despite no one except Cuba themselves claiming they are, and all reports from visitors are that they're dogshit
Lol

>>37082767
Oh because intelligent stuff comes from ">tfw no gf why doesn't society baby me and give me free shit"
the board, right?

>>37082779
Again you dummy, those are not just tourists, they are specialists from WHO who make an investigation, they can't be easily fooled, especially by such a poor country

>>37082796
1)never said it does but whatever
2)what are you doing here?

>>37079400
If I lived in total communism I'd be searching for bugs to eat due to the large famine.

>>37082767
>liberals
>ignore and dismiss arguments because muh feefees
>on the tfw no gf board
poetry

>>37082804
Yes, and no claim has ever been made that the hospitals are well taken care of. The only claim ever made is that they have good Doctors in Cuba, but that's it. The issue is that Cuban doctors are often sent elsewhere on international work.

>>37082824
I enjoy this cesspool some funny stories and the occasional woman hate thread when I'm feeling bitter. /r9k/ was my main board a few years ago before I lost 100 lbs, then got fit, got a nice job and put my life together. I sympathize with those here, but only the ones that actually want to better themselves.

>>37082835
If I lived in a hypothetical situation I'd first be well educated in the general topic.

>>37082845
>ignore arguments
I fucking debunked his argument you retard. And where the fuck did you come up with me being a liberal you faggot?
>>37082849
Maybe because the country is poor as fuck you retard?

Whole bunch of people not knowing difference between socialism, marxism, communism and stalinism ITT.

>>37083390
Summary of pretty much every argument about communism post ww2 and probaly earlier.

>>37082088
Statisically, Americans are among the least likely to be communists. Far more communists live in Hungary, Russia, and Ukraine.

>>37083390
One kills and the others don't even exist but would kill as well.

If I had total freedom, I might spend a few years, traveling to every port and island in the mediterranean

>>37081876
Gee anon, shilling for absentee property is sure showing those jews, let me tell ya

>>37079755
Like what?

Oreganolionoinoinoin

>>37082554
>national review
paul ryan go home.

Cubans have a higher life expectancy than americans and most other countries, not to mention they're the only country to have eliminated mother to child transmission of aids.

>>37082588
Venezuela's problem is mostly dutch disease, it's problems have very little to do with socialism vs capitalism, except perhaps the fact that more regular people benefited from the oil booms than other oil rich countries like Angola, so now everyone feels the crunch when there's bust, versus the mass of people just staying in poverty the whole time.

>>37079400
Is this what commie's actually believe communism is like? You're just as retarded as the Neo-nazi's thinking that living in the Third Reich would be amazing.

>>37085186
Both are retards if you ask me.

>>37079689
>You're thinking of Socialism. Communism is much less extreme

socialism is the first step to communism it's like that in theorey almost since Marx,

>>37079400
I'd wake up. oregain

>>37085210
, in the 19th century. In Marxist theory, the dictatorship of the proletariat is the intermediate system between capitalism and communism, when the government is in the process of changing the ownership of the means of production from private to collective ownership.[3] It is termed dictatorship because it retains the 'state apparatus' as such, with its implements of force and oppression.

>>37082835
http://imgur.com/a/cAKn3

>>37085239
>when the government is in the process of changing the ownership of the means of production from private to collective ownership
good luck

I'd work in the gulag punishing normies that miss their old way of life.

>>37079755
>Implying every other conquering force throughout history didn't do the same.
I think you're being the faggots m8. The root of all human social order is violence.
By comparison however the Soviets committed way more atrocities and furthermore completely needless acts of human slaughter to realise their retarded economic system and ideology.

>>37084993
Excellent point, goy, only jewish people own property, whites have never accomplished anything

>>37081541
Chile has had riots for 3 years straight

>>37085407
students riot fueled by leftist narrative, trust me I know

>>37085454
Most of the riots were caused by not being able to get university education without needing thousands of dollars to access it and some of the ideas was to increase pay for teachers [spoilers] sorry if I didn't go into detail and it feels like I left some stuff out

If I lived under Communism, I wouldn't have total freedom, you dumb fuck.

>>37079400
You may as well go all the way and say what if we lived in a idealistic libertarian society where populations were small and men traded only material goods and services. It's kind of funny how impossible it seems when early civilizations closely resembled it. In either case I would maybe be some kind of technician since that's always interested me. I'd research dreams in my spare time.

>>37079893
The problem i that under every communist controlled country you couldn't keep your guns

>>37085375
>GOY GOY GOY GOY OY VEY JEW JEW JEW XD
underageb& get out

>>37081526
"Shit I forgot about human nature sorry" - Karl Marx

I still don't get why people support capitalism, especially unregulated, unsustainable one. I mean just because you can/is more profitable doesn't mean you should. Only when the last fish has been captured, the last tree cut and the last pond drained will you learn that you can't eat money.
And to answer OP's question, it wouldn't change much from my current plans, still I would be an historian and play vidya in my free time, I'd just travel much more.

>>37085754
you could in yugoslavia

Commies can't be robots. Capitalism is the only way for people like us to succeed. In a society where money doesn't exist anyone will simply prefer genetically superior males. In capitalism people will have to respect me if I make enough money, no matter how ugly my face or beta my behavior is.

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>communism

guaranteed replies

>there are actual ancoms posting itt
What kind of cognitive dissonance do you have to experience to actually believe in ancom?

spend all day having group sex with japanese girls and robots.

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>>37079400
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccASsjhhgP8&list=PLwt9OUJ1gdC8wPFUW4qcYdKv4q3G6CEmk
https://archive.org/details/TheGulagArchipelago-Threevolumes

Read this and then make this thread again. If you don't/can't/won't read this then you aren't serious about communism.

>>37079400
>total freedom
>communism
ay lmao back to /pol/ with your shitposting spaniard

>>37079400
>What would you do if we lived in Communism and had total freedom? how would your life be different?
I would not be able to eat since Tyrone and Bubba control food distribution, therefore because I'm not for a downtown shithole or sister fucking trailer park, me and a local Chad Thundercock will have to eat each other semen to get any kind of meals