Is the purpose of a prison to (any combination or selection of

>>34626963
Ideally, it would do all of these things.

>>34626963
Norway here, with the legendary luxury prisons.

I believe in removing dangerous individuals from society + rehabilitation. The reason our prisons are so nice is so you don't promote prisons as being a training ground for more criminality. They can get an education in there, learn something. It's all pointed towards them being able to reintegrate to society, because they probably ended up in there in the first place because they fell out of society.
It seems to work as well, since the rate of returning prisoners is very low.

Breivik will never leave though.

>>34626978
I think punishment and vengeance are pointless pursuits that do more lasting damage than provide solutions but maybe I'm just a softy.

>>34627020
>Criminals should be given comfort and better opportunities for committing crime
Your country is a joke

>>34627041
Yeah, the best way to prevent crime is to ensure that there is no consequence for committing it.

>>34627020
This makes sense for crimes born of ignorance it anti social behaviour etc, but how do you treat or correct white collar criminals?

If some dude like Ponzi was in your country, or something like an official taking bribes etc, how do you feel about your proffin systems ability to discourage or correct that behaviour.

Like, a thief or vandal or violent person I can see the benefit of education and therapy. But a guy who develops and runs a scam to fleece people I see as a harder to deal with

>>34627020
Sounds like a good system to me. Ideally you want people out of circulation as long as they're a threat, and at the other end you want one fewer criminal and one more productive member of society.

>>34627046
They're not being given "better" opportunities, because you're able to do so much more for a lot less hassle outside of prison, and it's still a lot harder to land a job with a record. It just gives you a chance while inside.

Living standards are also much lower than even the lower class. It's just much higher than many other countries.

>>34627046
But they don't, so you're won't? This is hilarious. There's an entire country of empirical evidence that this is a more effective system, but your visceral emotional response prevents you from accepting that stripping a human of creature comforts so you can get a little twang of "Haha FUCK that guy, that's what you get!" Does nothing but create a system that produces more criminals than it can fix And does so by design because those criminals are used for cheap labour by private companies.

>>34626963
For some reason I was taught what the purpose of jails are in high school or middle school. Apparently it's best function is as a deterrent

>>34626963
It should be all of the above, but here in America where there is a prison industrial complex, people actually focus more in incarcerating and punishing people for petty offenses simply because it makes them alot of money or they are sadists that get off on ruining someone's life.

>>34627055
I think you have a pretty narrow understanding of what a consequence is, much like a criminal.

Also, much like a criminal, there's zero chance of your improving your understanding by getting abused, someone's got to take the time to learn you good.

Not me though, Haha, this is 4chan you fuckin tard

>>34627088
We will see soon. There aren't many cases like this, so I haven't seen it properly in effect. However, there's a big case right now where a police chief allegedly helped smuggle a shit ton of narcotics by handing information to the smugglers. I agree with you that it's going to be a lot harder to rehabilitate a "smart criminal". I think maybe they send those off to a remote island to work farms and spend years doing blue collar work.

>>34627152
Free housing and education is such a horrible consequence.

>>34626963
currently does all of them, but in a sane society only B and C

>>34627163
It is when you have to meet requirements to even be consider for those and have to live in the prison environment where you are treated like an animal.
But then again if this is Norway, its probably like being in a mental institution.

>>34626963
depends on what it is
most crimes are better avenged in civil cases or via fines.

Prison should be for violent criminals and big time traffickers, and the goal should be to remove them from society for at least a while.

We also should bring back mental health dumping grounds.

>>34627220
So basically like normal life, just slightly harder? How awful for them

>>34627153
That's an interesting take. The threat I see in those scenarios, made possible by a system like that, is that it's possible for a rational human being who is faced with the choice to do something illegal but very profitable to choose to accept the risk of getting caught side the payoff decent and the punishment is not necessarily designed with the express purpose of accruing as a deterrent in mind.

The blue collar thing is neat. With being such a big part of the system, does Norway have an extensive parole system in place (something similar to parole officer who check in on the progress of further convicts to monitor their progress once released)?

>>34627041
>>34627174
How is punishment pointless? It disincentives bad behavior.

>The state has also by no means to eradicate the foolish purpose, the inclination to wrong-doing, the wicked disposition; but merely always to place beside every possible motive for doing a wrong a more powerful motive for leaving it undone in the inevitable punishment that will ensue. Therefore the criminal code is as complete a register as possible of motives against every criminal action that can possibly be imagined
>All right to punish is based upon the positive law alone, which before the offence has determined a punishment for it, the threat of which, as a counter-motive, is intended to outweigh all possible motives for the offence.
> This distinguishes punishment from revenge; for the motives which instigate the latter are solely concerned with what has happened, and thus with the past as such. All requital of wrong by the infliction of pain, without any aim for the future, is revenge, and can have no other end than consolation for the suffering one has borne by the sight of the suffering one has inflicted upon another. This is wickedness and cruelty, and cannot be morally justified. Wrong which some one has inflicted upon me by no means entitles me to inflict wrong upon him.
>Man has the right to care for the safety of society; and this can only be done by interdicting all actions which are denoted by the word "criminal," in order to prevent them by means of counter-motives, which are the threatened punishments. And this threat can only be made effective by carrying it out when a case occurs in spite of it.

>>34627245
If it sounds so great to you, then why don't you go piss off a cop and get a minimum of 6 months :^)
Free housing and education after all amirite?

>>34627245
It's not supposed to be awful for them anon. That's the bit you're tripping up on. It's not supposed to be awful, it's reformative.

Transpose this discussion onto the reprimanding of a child. Child cheats on a test. You could beat him and make him sleep in a cellar or you could talk to him, seek to understand his behaviour, correct it, let him sleep in his own room and take steroids to ensure he doesn't fall back on that path again in the future.

The first is proven to cause issues both in child rearing and correctional facilities for adults. The latter is proven to be better at forming a healthy society, but doesn't get much traction with people whose main focus is getting biblical on people's ass so they can feel short term gratification

>>34627309
Positive reinforcement is demonstrably more effective than negative in terms of conditioning.

>>34627331
>take steroids
Take steps

>>34627020
this + an expanded death penalty for repeat offenders

>>34627346
Yes somehow I got the order of my own points mixed up in my head as I wrote them out

>>34627246
Yeah, I see your point. Smuggling drugs for years, living a life of extreme luxury while not getting caught, then straight into calm life of relaxing prison. I don't really have an argument here, you're making an excellent point against our justice system.

And yeah, we do have parole officers. They help with further rehabilitation, job applications, helping make sure they don't turn to crime again. To be a parole officer here you generally need a bachelor's in pedagogy, preferably with some psychology too.

>>34627346
What would positive reinforcement be for would be criminal?
If I want to murder someone want prevents me from taking risk except punishment?

>>34627163
>>34627309
>>34627331

I don't know where the fuck you people get your information but as a guy who's been to prison in the US I'm going to tell you you're absolutely wrong.

>>34627352
I'd be fine with opportunity for life imprisonment with an option for the prisoner to decide to end his or her life through humane means at any point.

Ostensibly it'd be cheaper than the costs associated with all the court shit surrounding executions if.

>>34627395
The threat of prison doesn't disincentive bad behavior?
As a citizen who's been tempted to behave badly I can tell you your wrong.

>>34627428
The threat of punishment doesn't teach you good behavior, though.

>>34627428
Listen you retarded know-nothing. I've BEEN there. I've talked to people, I've unfortunately lived the life and no sperg on r9k can tell me otherwise.

The people absolutely, 100% give no fucks. Nearly everyone you talk to has the same speech: I won't get caught again. It's never "Gee guys, maybe I shouldn't commit crime!" You're right in they care about being caught, but it doesn't cause them to stop committing crime, it causes them to try a different method. Do not compare your "I've been tempted to misbehave" to my actual prison time dude. They aren't comparable.

>>34627384
Positive reinforcement would be related to rewarding seeking additional qualifications and working hard. That's really targeted at career criminals though. The 'punishment' would be blue collar labour, which wouldn't be a deterrent for some, but at the end of the day, for murder you're going to be locked away for years. No one likes being trapped, regardless of how nice the cage is.

>>34627428
Frankly, it doesn't. There's an absurd amount of criminally that the everyday person partakes in, and just by being part of 4 Chan's demographic I feel perfectly comfortable in asserting that everyone in this thread has committed at least one criminal act whether they're aware of it or not.

>>34627506
Sounds like those people passed the point of no return and are at point B of the OP

>>34627535
>pirated terabytes of content
>did weed once where it wasn't legal
>fucked a 17 years 51 weeks old girl in a state with 18 limit

LOCK ME UP

>>34627582
As a criminal, I can assure you that the threat of punishment doesn't dissuade me in the least. It just takes more planning and caution to get things done. And honestly the planning and execution of the plan is as thrilling as the end.

>>34627506
>the people i met in prison are the type of people that fit the profile of those who are more likely to be in prison (those who dont care at all about consequences)

gee, quite the thought. now just think of all the other people that arent in jail because they arent as stupid and were deterred from commiting crimes by thinking of the consequences

>>34627630
Yeah people like you are the reason I don't buy into rehabilitation. People don't change short of a miracle, that's why you gotta lock em up. But for a lot of people it's deterrent enough

>>34627630
>As a criminal, I can assure you that the threat of punishment doesn't dissuade me in the least.
>As a criminal that doesnt have any hindsight**
fixed that for you.

the would be criminals that DO have hindsight, do care about the consequences and are less likely to commit a crime.

>>34627732
Oh, I forgot about them. How's the recidivism rate in the US atm?

>>34627706
Sure it is kid. Sure it is.
>threat of punishment doesn't work
>that's why I don't believe in rehabilitation

>>34627779
Some people will commit crime regardless, some will stop if there's a deterrent. What's so hard to understand?

>>34627795
The fact that the deterrent alone it doesn't work. Zerging crims is not a useful strat

>>34627766
irrelevant, those deterred from commiting crimes, never commited crimes in the first place

repeat offenders were clearly not deterred if they became criminals at some point.

gee, no wonder you turned into a life of crime. you cant even understand that your argument is a logical fallacy.

>>34627812
So what do you think we should do instead? Keep prison a secret?

>>34627795
Same can be said for the death penalty.

>>34627535
if i wasnt aware i was commiting the crime, then clearly the deterrent isnt the problem.

>>34627852
No, try actual rehabilitation. Take prisons out of the hands of the private sector, address societal problems that increase criminal activity. It's so a singular issue.

>>34627851
What do you suppose is the cause for the recidivism rate? As punishment alone doesn't seem to be effective against the scores of incarcerated?

In the USA we're working to effeminate our society into a more controllable populace.

It starts with the rules and punishments in our public schools and it extends towards our judicial system.

For instance fighting in the street is a big no-no.

>>34628004
>not, not "so"

>>34628043
Were essentially taking all the strong men out of the breeding cycle by keeping them in prison.

We need men who will listen to authority and not even fight someone over an issue.

>>34628004
>just need a utopia
Well sure, easier said than done. Doing those things doesn't stop prison from still being a deterrent though.

>>34628089
It would address the root cause. It's not a utopia to expect the criminal justice to work, nimrod, and >it's too hard isn't an argument.

>>34627407
it's funny because apparently most inmates are depressed so suicide may be consensual.

Beyond a cursory waiting period to evaluate evidence (say 10 years), heinous and repeat offenders should be executed. The nonsense about capital punishment being costly relates to procedural barriers rather than inherent costs. Besides, there is a benefit in reducing crowding strains

>>34628128
>It would address the root cause
[citation needed]

>>34628157
How about we focus on lowering the incarnation rate? You know, before we start executing petty felons.

>>34628172
I'm sorry, are you saying the system isn't broken?

>>34628205
there is nothing wrong with the system

>>34628194
Drug crimes can and should be enforced to social benefit and dealers should be executed. Singapore works. 7% of the population creates the vast majority of crime. Execute even a fraction of that percentage and you are eliminating an ongoing problem

>>34628205
No, but it's obviously very complicated. If there are no more private prisons for example, maybe the government can't afford it and crime goes up. Maybe regulated private prisons is the way to go. Does throwing money at the education system prevent crime? Maybe it's just the people, I don't know. Maybe it's the human condition that when people face the unfairness of life turn to crime. So do we need communism or something? Not even that has worked.

>>34628157
Yeah but there are some crimes that exist because they reveal the lies and distortions of our leaders.

Killings those people who seek the truth is an evil act.

File: me irl.jpg (5KB, 169x119px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 169x119px

>>34628297
>mfw OP is a SJW who thinks I'm talking about any of that

I'm out, peace faggots

>>34628234
Why don't we just kill everyone who likes pizza too.

Maybe riding bikes or socializing at parties?

Where do we draw the line in incarcerating those who commit consensual acts.

>>34628261
If the prison system is in private hands then it needs to be highly regulated to avoid the inmates being exploited or the prison lobby pushing for stricter sentencing, especially for nonviolent offenders.
>Does throwing money at the education system prevent crime?
Check the stats of criminals against their education level.
No one said communism. This is something that can happen in a democratic society. It just needs to be considered earnestly without lobbyist sway.

>>34628339
Just because a school is well funded doesn't mean people are going to succeed. And fixing those societal problems is fine for future generations, but what about those repeat offenders in now? You think they can reintegrate?

>>34628318
when I don't like it, we kill them

>>34628493
I'm not saying only well funded schools produce non crims, what I'm saying is there are schools in America that are literally falling apart. Maybe address that.

There's alot of practical, immediate ways to begin to lower recidivism, one would be rehabilitation. Incentivize furthering your education or learning a vacation while inside. Stop using it for cheap labor/sweatshops, and actually give the inmates something to work towards and build on. Lower or get rid of mandatory minimums for nonviolent offenders, address the unfair drug laws, decriminalize marijuana; all of these would lower the incarnation rate, make it easier for guards, and make it possible to invest in the programs needed. Especially with decriminalization, it lowers incarnation rates and generates tax money to help fund the needed programs. You need a foundation to actually build your future on. People sometimes forget.

>>34628677
>vocational not vacation... Obviously?

>>34628677
OK I'll admit that's a good list of goals, but I still don't know how feasible it is. But back to the original argument, let's say that all gets done, that the criminal justice system is working as planned, why isn't prison mainly a deterrent? Why shouldn't it be? Even if everyone has a good life, wouldn't it still be a little tempting to make a little extra illegally? If there were no deterrent, people would be doing crime left and right. Instead most people only do crimes that are very low risk and low penalty, because of the deterrent.

>>34627020
Yes make it comfy for child rapists so they don't rape your daughter when they come out after 2 years. Great system.

>>34628797
I'm not saying it shouldn't be a deterrent, just that using it as ONLY a deterrent (not as a deterrent plus a form of rehabilitation) doesn't address the root causes of crime and recidivism.

>>34626963
C and B
A and D are sentimental bullshit, if you consider them to be a valid ideas you might as well just let people lynch offenders on the street. We don't need a legal system for that.

And there's another important thing a prison, or rather a legal system should do: Protect the offenders from disproportionate punishment by the population.

>>34626963
trick question

the answer: for the state and government to make money

>>34626963
It should be tailored to the individual. Some people are capable of learning and changing. Others will never change.

So you have a prisoner properly tested and assessed. The prison should be a gauntlet, testing their ability to empathise, reason and control themselves.
If they fail, then into the incinerator they go. Really, what's the point in keeping someone who only intends to murder, steal and destroy.

>>34629187
I'm not comfortable with the state or private institutions deciding who or isn't meeting the incinerator.

>>34629383
>who is or isnt
I'm making all the errors, my apologies.

>>34626963

It should be:
E) Execution of criminals, prioritizing niggers.

File: tfw to smart for azathoth.jpg (63KB, 694x610px) Image search: [Google]

63KB, 694x610px

>>34626963
E) Society-as-a-superorganism directing its own evolution, by making people who don't serve it less likely to breed. Emergent, semi-autonomous autoeugenics.

>tfw you accidentally achieved both BASED and #woke at the same time and it allowed you to realize you're simply one disposable cell in a vast cosmic horror that you rely on to survive
>tfw no one else talks about this because you're on the edge of the blackpill singularity just before you realize that communication is pointless and simply stop talking

>>34626963
A because it deters crime and C because it keeps people in the workforce. B is good but there will always be dangerous people, and what a society deems dangerous could be discrimatory/result in oppression. D isn't practical, but it could be seen as something that happens just by having prisons in the first place.

I think prisons should have a lot of solitary confinement, very heavy guard presence and very long sentences/slavery for the punishment of criminals. For rehabilitation, there should be mental health treatment for all prisoners and the possibilty for friendly interaction with prison staff.

I'm pretty much an ancap, but I think it would be good if Britain's prison system had no privatisation and a lot of mental health facilities, plus more prevention of rape.

>>34629503
Also, education is good for rehabilitation.

The purpose of them according to who?

>>34629592
to whom

>>34627046
It's people like you that are the reason why American prisons are filled with nignog gangs

>>34627046
This desu. Why try and rehabilutste criminals when they can join racial gangs and learn how create/ conceal makeshift weapons and use them to attack other inmates for no good reason. Oh, and dont forget the rape, whats the point of any of this is they dont get brutally raped.

>>34629388
>typing errors
Into the incinerator you go.

>>34629692

Niggers should be executed the moment they set foot in prison.

>>34629845
Kek! No I please to promise to better!

>>34629936
>*no please I promise to do better