Why some anarchists/libertarians seems to be hate eachother more

>>139507309
kek

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>>139507309
Because Ancaps don't view Ancoms as real anarchists and visa versa
Both see the other as pawns of the authoritarians and both are right
t. NatCap

>>139507309
Left cherishes equality

Right cherishes hierarchy

Authoritarian left = the state should enforce equality. (mass murderous gommunism)

Authoritarian right = the state should enforce hierarchy. (statist fascism)

Libertarian right = nature/the market should create hierarchy (natural fascism)

Libertarian left = naturally equality (retarded)

>>139507309
Cuz the theories are mutually incompatible. Left anarchists think private property is essentially a kind of statism or "private tyranny". Right anarchists think left anarchism is economically illiterate and will inevitably devolve back into statism, because human beings left to their own devices do not create "egalitarian socialism", unless compelled by some external power to do so (IE, a state).

I recognize both of these critiques as being more or less true, which is why I'm a statist.

>>139507719
>politics is 2D

>>139507309
Collective property vs Private property

>>139508069
Just like our waifus

>>139507719
Take this (you) anon, it's well deserved

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>>139507309
red/black anarchist are communists larping as anarchist.

Don't believe me? pic related

>>139507719
As simple as this explanation is, pretty accurate.

t.esoteric liber/aryan/

>>139507309
Because ancaps want to exploit workers while ancoms want the workers to be paid fairly according to the revenue they generate. That and they both disagree on the only core intitution left after the state is dissolved, property.

>>139508510
This. Ancom doesn't and can't exist, it's an oxymoron.

>>139508510
wut, yes they follow anarcho-communism, thats what they are. what are you trying to say?

>>139508069
Still right tho. It all comes down to the ancap hating equality more than the state itself, or the ancom hating inequality more than the state itself.

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>>139509541
Spotted the ancom faggot.

>>139507719
That's sum it up perfectly

>>139508510
>reddit

well I wouldn't be suprised that AnComs won't believe their own bullshit

>>139509807
It's oxymoronic, you can't get rid of the state and private property at the same time. Because getting rid of private property requires the use of force.

>>139508510
>no solution for who/how it's decided what "need" is, no effort to address it
>denying centralized control without alternative
Yeah, that's gonna work out

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>>139508510
>>139507400
>>139510371

spotted the 15 year old (if only mentally) randroids.

>>139507719
>Libertarian right = nature/the market should create hierarchy (natural fascism)
Let the rich rule everything: the ideology

>Libertarian left = naturally equality (retarded)
Marxist thought should at first be instilled and spread by the state, which should at some point lose its purpose and be abolished, as the people will be educated enough to moderate each other.

>>139510654
>the left

>ability to meme
choose one

>>139510724
>Marxist thought should at first be instilled and spread by the state, which should at some point lose its purpose and be abolished, as the people will be educated enough to moderate each other.

Sounds a lot like eugenics

>>139509541
>paid according to the revenue they generate
>equality
These two don't go hand in hand you realize right? If all you want is fair pay for your work, then unionize. You don't get fair pay for your work in communism. You get the same as everyone else, whether they don't work, or they work half as hard or productively as you do. Otherwise it's not equality and there's still hierarchy.

And you wonder why people think you're retarded.

>>139510371
That and the institution necessary to have centrally planned economy is basically a ussr tier totalitarian state

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>>139507309
At their core they're about personal ability.

>Anarchists produce nothing and want free shit
>Libertarians produce goods and want everyone to fuck off

That's the jyst of it. Obvious libertarians jumping on in the last 5 years are dudeweedlmao's but they're still white and thus get yelled at by anarchists.

>>139510724
>thinking the state will ever work towards its own destruction
Lmaooooooook

>>139510724
Libertarian left: let the bottom scum of society have equal power as productive and moral people.

>>139510806
It's actually the most dysgenic of systems.

>>139507309
because many of the leftist "anarchists" care more about communism and leftism than actually opposing the state

I've literally seen ancoms say shit like "we oppose the state but we support government." They basically support leftie shit and hate "capitalism" while failing to display even a rudimentary understanding of markets, supply, demand, and anarchism

>>139507719
>Libertarian left = naturally equality (retarded)
No government = no money = no wage labor.
No government = no law enforcement = no private industries/land.

Pretty simple actually.

>>139510654
And they are usually immature adults without the ability to think and make arguments.

And hence they can't do those things, they are prone to violence (watch Stefan's interview with ex-antifa guy).

>>139511181
>No government = no money
Your retarded. The first banks we're independent of the state.

>>139511131
I know but commies love things getting worse for everyone.

>>139511148
State regulations are why capitalism sucks in its current state. Barrier of entry for small businesses is insanely high compared to 50 years ago even.

>>139511295
>banks
>surviving without government

>>139511181
>people won't defend their own necessities
>people won't come up with a way to trade necessities
>The wage system isn't an efficient way to pay workers before revenues are collected

See? Retarded

>>139510371
not really voluntary communes dont require hyrachy because they have the same idea how it should be, also

communism: stateless, moneyless and classless society

>>139510724
So basically you have to transition from authoritarian left first
>Authoritarian left
Your parents worked all their life and want to give you the wealth they have accumulated because they love you, but I will take most of it from you and give it to a bunch random people, some of them being worthless fucks that haven't worked a day in their lives because they deserve it more than you somehow:the ideology

You're fucking retarded, dude.
>muh anarchy
Go to Somalia to enjoy that anarchy, retard.

>>139511453
You don't need a government to have currency or defend banked resources.

>>139510858
They argue that they can do that with the "consensus decision making process"

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/seeds-for-change-consensus-decision-making

Seems like bs without any actual arguments presented, but I haven't read it yet.

But even if there is that magical device of decision making without the use of force, you still need to get rid of private property. And most people, including yours truly, won't give up their private property "for the good of the society" or whatever, without force.

>>139511181
>(retarded)
Thanks for confirming that lmao. Government is just people with monopoly on force in most cases, but monopoly on public support AND violence in democracy. Thinking that any of those things would naturally exist without the state is just asinine.

>>139511349
This. We're basically living in keynesian/monartarist "capitalism". It's a mixed market that sucks.

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>>139507719
Libertarian Left are the most difficult to understand, but we know it could work.

>>139511544
>>139511688
>If everyone is stoned enough we'll agree, but we won't do anything about it
left libertarianism in a nutshell

>>139510724

>hierarchies are evil but we will use strict nondemocratic hierarchy to usher in utopia

wow what could go wrong.

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>>139510654
>lulz some random bird xD
>>anarcho >capitalist
>LOL
Turns out "the left can't meme" thing is real.

>>139511457
>>people won't defend their own necessities
Personal property =/= private property. You can defend your house by yourself, but even hiring a militia wouldn't stop people from infringing on large plots of land such as farmland, or moving into unoccupied infrastructure.
>>The wage system isn't an efficient way to pay workers before revenues are collected
No shit it's efficient. And slavery is even more efficient.

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>>139507309
Kek, answer is really simple - because a lot of libertarians used to be anarchists so not only we know a real doctrine of revolution (which is fucking terrifying) but also we can see that anarchist movement is being slowly absorbed by something even worst - com*unism. That's all.

>>139511688
I'm lib left (pretty near ghandi) and am very pro trump.

>>139511925
>even hiring a militia wouldn't stop people from infringing on large plots of land such as farmland, or moving into unoccupied infrastructure.
That's where you're wrong kiddo

>slavery is even more efficient.
Not really, no. Having to care for every need of a labor force is inefficient as fuck.

>>139511626
You can't collect rain water, you can't butcher meat without thousands of dollars of stainless steel equipment, you can't do all kinds of shit by yourself. They bring in college fags to run the regulations who know shit all about the real world, and ask the corporations for advice on how to do their jobs

>>139512023
I like Trump but strongly disagree with his foreign policy in the Middle East ... Israel, Saudi Arabia, Syria etc.

>>139511502
Yes really, i already explained this twicebefore.

I won't give up my private property, and neither will most people, without the use of force.

>>139510724
>Marxist thought should at first be instilled and spread by the state
Fuck that and fuck you, you're unworthy of the black flag

>>139507309
Ugyanazert amiert a magyarok az osztrakokkal osszealltak hogy kiverjek a torokoket az orszagbol kb 300 evvel ezelott.

The level of authoritarianism is not what makes a country be a certain way, but the left (antinationalist) vs right (nationalist) does. The preservation of the nation and private property is more important than everything else.

>>139507691

Good post

>>139512276
I only disagree with it. Killing NN was the big one for me.

>>139512052
As soon as someone starts trying to form a militia to violently enforce things beyond their own personal interactions, they have essentially formed a state. Anarchists are against all forms of hierarchical enforcement, which is why ancaps only exist online.

>>139510724
>which should at some point lose its purpose and be abolished, as the people will be educated enough to moderate each other.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Holy, shit, you faggots actually believe this gullible garbage.
Yeah, because this has worked so well in the past communist countries, right?
Don't even bother with your "Not real gommunism".
You faggots are absolutly pathetic.

>>139507309
AnComs are collectivist mob rule authoritarian thieves.

modern ancaps aren’t actually anarchists, but have read rothbard and probably want natcap instead.

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>>139513418
Net Neutrality? Yeah man that too, I thought that was serious blow to freedom of speech.

My current political dreamteam pic related.

Rand Paul because it's Rand Paul. Tulsi Gabbard because she'll get all the femi-hillbot voters and Obama turned Trump voters. She is more Libertarian than Liberal. She has a shit gun control stance but as a Libertarian she won't do shit, with Rand there too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvKIPEp9Lyo [Embed]

Net Neutrality.
https://www.votetulsi.com/node/32952

>>139510724
Libertarian Left = instead of an organized state, we, the mob rule will point guns at people and steal your shit until everyone is "equal" (which is never)

Libertarian Right: natural meritocracy, (only fucking logical thing)

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>>139513212

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>>139513735
"AnCaps" like myself have read Rothbard and taken it to it's conclusion. We want people to be able to own land and dictate the rules on that land.

We're practically monarchists with a sense of morality, and I'm okay with that.

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>>139514247

>>139513987
Libertarian Right: I'll protect my business by building a wall around my vast plots of land, hiring people to act like police and security, and forcing people to recognize how valuable my money is. Wait, did I just create my own State?

Libertarian Left: Once government is gone, capitalism cannot survive. The government's monopoly on violence exists to protect the pillars capitalism, most importantly privatized means of production.

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>>139514331
Yes.

>>139513980
rand paul lol

>>139514247
i should’ve said monarchists, because that’s completely true. it’s not a bad thing either, just a ideology is burgers would get called fags for if we identified with it

>>139513980
>libertarian
>Tulsi "turn in your guns" Gabbtard
kys

For whatever reason libertarians inherently hate each other. It's like the Slavs or Kurds. Even though I'm on the libertarian right, I'd pick a neo-nazi over an ancap any day.

I can only tolerate some people who are more libertarian than me. If you get too much more libertarian then I just see you as a crybaby

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>I am against the initiation of violence, but if you set foot on this land which I say is mine because I claimed it, I will shoot you.
>Muh landlords
>Assembly line workers and farmers definitely won't rise up against me when the police and military are gone

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>>139513980
HAH

>>139514988
replace liberty with mob tyranny

>>139514988
Liberty disappears without authoritarian state enforcing it. Stable liberty is partly authoritarian. On your graph, put liberty in the middle, and make the lower left "chaos/anarchy".

>>139515253
You mean "oh god I can't force people to respect my imaginary concepts"

>>139511688

True to your digits, this would only work if we had no nigs nogging around as well.

>>139515253
that case both the top edge and the bottom edge are authoritarian. The authority on the top is hierarchical, on the bottom is distributed, but tyrannical nonetheless.

>>139515527
No I mean
>"You don't think the way I do! you fucking NAZI! *proceeds to gang up on bystanders minding their own business 10 to 1*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AhGYo9TExU

>>139515135
hahaha, I never even knew how tall they were.

>>139515551
Nigs that nog can GTFO, and if they try to rob you or trespass your property we can shoot them.

>>139514824
I see it differently, its apparent to me that true natural order and the end result of Libertarianism is deeply hierarchical. Although I Admire the founding fathers, the were philosophically at fault by implementing democracy and even the republic. I see my philosophy as a finished system based on their philosophy. Which Is why I call myself a libertarian, and not a monarchist.

>>139516140
Their limited franchise actually made sense. Restrict the franchise to men (lol women voting) who were invested in the future (land owning) and of the core ethnic stock (white).

Expanding the franchise was a mistake.

>>139512390
then you dont go into the commune. voluntary

>>139516673
Surely a democracy exclusive to the true owners of the land is sensible. But it could never stay that way through many generations

>>139517047
Plus the expansion of the country, and the massive amounts of wealth the US generated, and the civil war massively complicated things.

Maybe Federation was the true mistake.

>>139514988
Wrong.

>>139507719
(you)

>>139515432
voluntary democratic communes, where the all people own guns (ancom). actual liberty comes forth out of anarchy

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>>139511181
>no government = no money
>no money = no wages
>no government = no laws
>no government = no private industries and land
Thanks for confirming you are actually retarded.

>>139518101
If you're not using something, forcing other people to also not use it puts you at odds with anarchism, which is by definition against hierarchy. Ancaps enforce hierarchy when it does not naturally uphold itself. You have no spooky inherent magical aura floating around things you "earned" when they're a mile away from you.

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>>139507309
Because ancaps aren't true anarchists. Anarchism as a political theory arose from Proudhon who said private property is theft and that private property should be collectively owned, not privately. Private property is a barrier to freedom and opportunity. Ancaps merely were historically illiterate capitalists who liked the idea of a stateless society however capitalism requires a state to work. It's mostly a meme ideology and that doesn't exist and isn't even relevant.

>>139517882
There will always be people wanting other peoples stuff and organize to get it. They organize, not an independent mob, but a "government" over everyone, to facilitate it. These marxists pop out of everywhere in every generation. Some of the children of voluntairy libertarians will want communism, and they grow up and try to trick others with compassion scams and shaming scams.

>>139518492
There is no libertarian left for the same reason.

THE ONLY TRUE EQUALITY IS DEATH

THIS IS WHY DESPITE ALL THEIR INTENTIONS, COMMUNISTS JUST END UP KILLING LOTS AND LOTS OF PEOPLE

IT IS THE ONLY EQUALITY THEY CAN ACTUALLY CREATE

>>139518781
There's no difference between a hierarchy fetishist and an authoritarian.

>>139507309
I've been ploughing through various ancaps and ansyns, so far my impressions are that Mises and Rothbard understand things more clearly than Rocker and Chomsky. Proudhon and Bakunin are up next to try and save the ansyns

>>139518942
Is that why commies always create systems that dominate them, whether their revolutionaries win or lose?

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>>139518379
Hey, smartie, how come societies have used gold as currency long before any government coinage?
How come drug cartels, criminal factions, and black markets have private property despite being enemies of the state?

Literally almost every assumption left "libertarians" make is wrong. Every single one.

>If you're not using something, forcing other people to also not use it puts you at odds with anarchism, which is by definition against hierarchy
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=anarchism+definition
Brilliant. Try to win the argument by changing the semantics. Now anarchism is abou being against private property, because private property is hierarchy. Except that's not even the definition of anarchism at all.

>>139518492
>You can't believe something unless someone wrote about the concept in the 1800's

>>139518492
First words of Proudhons "What is Property?":

"If I were asked to answer the following question: What is slavery? and I should answer in one word, It is murder, my meaning would be understood at once. No extended argument would be required to show that the power to take from a man his thought, his will, his personality, is a power of life and death; and that to enslave a man is to kill him. Why, then, to this other question: What is property? may I not likewise answer, It is theft, without the certainty of being misunderstood; the second proposition being no other than a transformation of the first?"

No, but seriously. A person wrote that, and thought it made sense, and that person inspired an entire school of retards to follow in his footsteps? Is this a fucking joke?

>>139507309
AnarchoCommunists are Communists. If they get their way they will herd 10-50% of the population into stadiums for butchering.

>>139517031
So then why wouldn't ancoms support anarcho-capitalism? An-Cap is compatible with voluntary anarchist communes. The opposite is not true.

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>im doing everything that an abusive socialist/fascist does but saying im a libertarian why are the libertarians attacking me

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>>139518781
>COMMUNISTS JUST END UP KILLING LOTS AND LOTS OF PEOPLE
Capitalists have killed a lot more

>>139507691
Explain NatCap? Is it Third Positionist Capitalism or something?

>>139519691
>First item
>Hurricane Katrina
into the trash it goes

>>139519691
Oh look a lying commie LARPing faggot
how many times do we have to debunk that faggotry?

>>139519691
bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
you even put the fucking kulaks and khmer rouge on the list, holy shit bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
this is the greatest thing ive ever fucking seen

>>139510724
This is actually the stupidest thing ive ever read on /pol/

>>139519106
Capitalism relies on enforcement. Whether you hire a bunch of thugs or use the state--which is not fundamentally different--the result is the same. Governments are the natural conclusion of a capitalist premise, that of controlling things you "claim" using violence.

There is literally no natural framework for private (not personal, private) property beyond a cop-out: "natural rights given by God." Which is just extending hierarchy to the mystical realm, which is laughable.

Anarchism, historically, was always anti-capitalist. You can't really expect people who get all their information and education from youtube to know that, I guess.

Anarchists are against tyranny, while "ancaps" simply want tyranny to change hands.

>>139507309
Leftists neglect some basic, fundamental principles of human behavior. We can't put up with that. They idealistically deem the human kind as deprived of greed, usury, and sin, or that all those traits are enforced by the existing system, and it's merely enough to topple it.

That being said, if you embrace those principles instead of denying them, you still can achieve camaraderie, mutuality and collective ownership of means of productions if you make it all market-driven.

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>>139519893
>>139520002
>>139520131

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>>139519277
This can't be stressed enough.
Left "libertarians" are literally nobodies in the academic world. When you look at Rothbard, Mises, Hayek, or even the living ones like Walter Block, you are essentially looking at an economic who publishes peer reviewed papers and participates in academic debates with a certain frequency. Same is not true for the commie writers, most of them are literally nobodies who gained attention for being edgy, not for their overwhelming academic success.

>>139510724
shit flag from people with shit solutions they can solve from shitty situations.

>>139520465
can't*

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>>139520268
>Leftists neglect some basic, fundamental principles of human behavior.

>>139520570
Barter and Trading isn't Capitalism! NO WAY! HURRRRRRRRRRRRR!

>>139520436
Anarcho-capitalism, in my opinion, is a doctrinal system which, if ever implemented, would lead to forms of tyranny and oppression that have few counterparts in human history. There isn't the slightest possibility that its (in my view, horrendous) ideas would be implemented, because they would quickly destroy any society that made this colossal error. The idea of "free contract" between the potentate and his starving subject is a sick joke, perhaps worth some moments in an academic seminar exploring the consequences of (in my view, absurd) ideas, but nowhere else.

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>>139520685
>Barter and Trading isn't Capitalism!
It isn't, I'm glad you're learning.

>>139519691
These are wars caused by all sorts of different reason, the fact they are capatilist is irrelivent, unlike communism which governments slaughtering their own people, not including the wars they got into.You clueless bellend.

>>139520382
>Every single death in the world is the fault of a decentralized economic system that no single nation completely controls
>All the concentrated mass starvations and state-led genocides directly under centrally controlled communist governments were not the fault of communism because they weren't communist enough

This is why nobody takes you seriously.

Also
>feeding the animals.

It is, the exchange of value that of itself is "capitalism". GET REKT GOMMIE.

>>139521219
>>139520833

>>139519793
mercantilist

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>>139520706

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>>139520223
God, I fucking hate cucks like you. Look at you tried to avoid the conclusion you were wrong by sliding the conversation.

>Whether you hire a bunch of thugs or use the state--which is not fundamentally different--the result is the same.
Uh, you little cuck, remember when you were talking about how you could only enforce your property with a state and how you wanted to prove how only through state capitalism and private property could occur? Yeah, better to ignore that than and slide into commie larping then to face the fact that you were wrong.

>There is literally no natural framework for private (not personal, private)
That's absurdly wrong. That's so wrong I can't believe someone can be this retarded. If you get too close to animals, they'll tear you apart. If you invade a lions territory or get too close to the place they sleep, they'll fuck you up even if they are not hungry. Private property is as straight forward as that. If you try to mess with something I perceive to be mine, I'll fuck you up. Institutions to protect private property are there not to "invent" private property, but to keep things from getting bloody.

>Anarchism, historically, was always anti-capitalist
Does that mean that's the definition of the word "anarchism"? Oh wait, it doesn't.

You are literally too retarded to even have a normal conversation. Stop browsing /pol/. Grow up 3-5 more years before coming here. Wait until your brains develop and your balls drop.

>>139514331
How do ancaps respond to this?

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>>139518492
>commie calling a faggot "historically illiterate"

And to answer the OP: Ancap and ancom aren't single-pointed positions, they're areas in the political map. Some ancaps are further right than down, some are further down than right. The same with commies, just to the left.

>>139520382
>people die in Africa
>capitalisms fault
You idiots really think this

>>139507309
anarchists dont ACTUALLY ideologically oppose the state, they are just salty they arent in charge of it

>>139520833
"Under capitalism, the government-"
you are a stupid person, a stupid person

>>139518492
>said private property is theft
I say communist peoples heads is theft. We should take it back to where they belong, stuck on top of spear-headed fence tops, or in a pile in my basement. your wife is theft, we have to take her back into my bed.
Whatever you can label as theft and steal it "back". It is a scam. Most racial minorities are doing it. "reparations" is a prime example, and migration from Africa "reclaiming" their "human rights" to our land.

>>139519691
Yeah but communism died hungry and broke while capitalism is still here, well fed and rich

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>>139520223
>Polytechnic institute teacher
>University professor
>Economic paper publisher
Look at this doctrinal cult leader wanting to establish tyranny into this world.

>nobody who used to proof read newspapers and decided to be vocal about his communist fantasies of free shit
Woah, what a logical set of theories.

By the way, I don't give a fuck about your theorical imagination on whether capitalism works or not. It's literally worst than anecdotal evidence.

>>139521529
Definitely not because of dindu's being shit at civilization.

>>139520436
Its actually incredible how bad most of what ive read from the ansyns so far is. Chomsky is alright if you can weed through his moralizing, but I'm fucking stunned by how bad everything else so far is. How do we get these morons to read Mises?

>>139521543
Capitalism requires a government to give provide property rights. To say they're incompatible is just absurd

>>139521800
If dindus had communism, everything would work out great for them.

THEY REALLY THINK THIS.

>>139521382
>cuck cuck cuck
Spic intelligence, everyone.
>remember when you were talking about how you could only enforce your property with a state and how you wanted to prove how only through state capitalism and private property could occur?
Instating militias would simply be reviving a statist system. With our current infrastructure and society, removing government sanctioned enforcement squads would leave private property completely vulnerable. I think ancaps fail to comprehend how much unoccupied land and resources actually exist.
>commie larping
Ancaps are mostly Fallout fanchildren on the internet. The only anarchists you see outside of the internet are actual anarchists.
>That's so wrong I can't believe someone can be this retarded. If you get too close to animals, they'll tear you apart. If you invade a lions territory or get too close to the place they sleep, they'll fuck you up even if they are not hungry. Private property is as straight forward as that.
That's personal property you uneducated fuckwit. Does the CEO of McDonalds personally fly over every McDonalds farm holding a gun every day to make sure no one's using it other than his contracted employees? Do you enter and use your own home every day? These are fundamentally different. The means of production are seldom touched by the people who own them, therefore they rely on massive squads threatening violence to control them.

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>>139521219
Nope, capitalism arose during industrialization when people flocked to cities to work in factories. Capitalism is where the means of production is privately owned. There is exchange of value in communism too.

>>139522214
Your thoughts on Rocker?

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>>139507309

>Why some anarchists/libertarians seems to be hate eachother more than their statist counterparts

Because ultimately we're all willing to pick and choose which freedoms are more important to us and ally ourselves with the statists as a Faustian bargain to preserve the rights we hold most dear.

So for example the leftist anarchists are willing to sacrifice things like free speech or the 2nd amendment while I'm willing to concede that maybe transvestites shouldn't be in the military.

And also because most leftists are socialists posing as actual anarchists.

>>139507309
because ancoms turn every stateless socety into a starting ramp for athoritarian ideologys,
they will expect others to give them shit free which requires force so they either forceothers to built and state like structure to overcome them or do it themselfs and become and authoritarian socialist regime. ...

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>>139523018
>And also because most leftists are socialists posing as actual anarchists.
Early socialists were anarchists. They came up with the term.

>>139522580
Yeah communism is fun to talk about on the internet with your fancy computer.

However actually reducing all of humanity to the lowest common denominator in order to enforce equality is a pretty shit deal m80.

Especially since people tend to HATE that shit and always, ALWAYS try to subvert it.

>>139523238
>Yeah communism is fun to talk about on the internet with your fancy computer.
The internet was invented in the state sector, you know.

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>>139522456
>Spic intelligence, everyone.
I find it hilarious how all commies afraid of racism turn out to be race realists whenever confronted by a foreign person.
>That's personal property you uneducated fuckwit.
Commies are the most retarded political thinkers that ever came to exist. I guess now you are in favor of private property. Now in a perfect socialist society, you'll still be able to own private property, only now, its limited to the place you'll sleep and the place your children sleep, and if your house or backyard of "personal property" is too big people have the right to destroy your shit and steal it, right? You only realize how retarded and childish you are 5 years from now. It's useless to point that out to you when you have no life experiences. Little kids can believe in whatever the fuck they want.

By the way, I would just like to point it out to you: None of this larping you invent even matters because there's no economy without private property and private exchange. Communism doesn't really exist. It makes no sense. Do you seriously believe that all the 200 countries on the planet couldn't abolish private property because they follow the same capitalist ideology? Do you think the reason why China or North Korea or the USSR didn't make a communist utopia because they simply didn't felt like it? Wake the fuck up.

>>139523553
And?

>>139507309
Inaccurate. There is no such thing as Left-Libertarianism, since it always requires a state.

>>139522580
God your memes fucking suck.

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>>139523238
>Yeah communism is fun to talk about on the internet with your fancy computer.
The internet and computer would exist under socialism. We'd have more technology and scientific progress.
>However actually reducing all of humanity to the lowest common denominator in order to enforce equality is a pretty shit deal m80.
That's not the point of socialism. Socialists are for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. Education, healthcare, and automation would ensure people would be able to pursue their interests. This artificial equality created by capitalism (capitalists owning most of the wealth) is harmful to society.

>>139508510
There magical stateless society with no hierarchies is 100% impossible. Biology, Upbringing, Location, Entrepreneurial Abilities, and dumb luck will always result in everyone being inequal. As for fiscal equality, you can't obtain it without an authoritarian government to redistribute the wealth.

>>139523957
>This artificial equality created by capitalism (capitalists owning most of the wealth)

Communists are mentally ill. Their trains of thought collide within single sentences and they just keep chugging along.

>>139522683
A bit like Chomsky in that when he's recounting history and criticizing the socialists/marxists trying to work through the state, I think he's on point. But when he actually tries to explain how his stateless society would work I think he's kidding himself.
He believes in the perfectibility of man, that workers through interacting with syndicates could be educated (presumably by intellectuals) to manage all the affairs of society for themselves. This would then afford man his true freedom, to enjoy "higher intellectual culture". This is believable, maybe, in the 1800s, before we really understood how heritable and hard to raise intelligence is. Go get any construction company and have the workers stand in as management and see what happens. I'm not pro-manager, I'm pretty sure managerialism has been pretty ruinous in general, but to believe that workers could just as easily be trained to be technocrats is to dramatically overestimate how easy it is to change peoples character and dramatically underestimate how complicated massive-scale societies are (presumably this is why the idea for many has become to have local, small-scale communes, but that then presents a whole other set of problems)
I'm also not sure how his syndicates or committees wouldn't wind up in practice just being another "state". He points to the CNT in Spain, but without knowing how the CNT would've progressed after the war had they not been crushed, its hard to say one way or the other.

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>>139520833
>under communism workers have complete, free and immediate access to the abundance of socialized production

>>139510654
I guess it is a good thing that you perceive our youth are Ancaps. They must have seen too much tyranny to given in to socialism.

>>139510724
Fascism is essentially and ultra-nationalist government. It puts its collective agenda first before the individual's agenda. And typically most fascist societies have a highly regulated market, but a market none the less.

>>139524221
*inequality
But really, do you actually agree with capitalist inequality?

>>139523697
>I find it hilarious how all commies afraid of racism turn out to be race realists whenever confronted by a foreign person.
>W-wait, my preconceived notion of what kind of person you're supposed to be based on your economic stance doesn't match reality. It's somehow your fault!!!

>Commies are the most retarded political thinkers that ever came to exist. I guess now you are in favor of private property.
What's your IQ? You seem to be having trouble following this. You asserted that personal property was natural, but you mistook it for private property. I corrected you. Personal property, that which animals would defend, is natural. Private property is not and relies on force.
>if your house or backyard of "personal property" is too big people have the right to destroy your shit and steal it, right?
It's a bit more complex than that, but if you can't personally assert yourself over something, you have no right to it. This becomes important when it comes to things that provide basic resources.
>You only realize how retarded and childish you are 5 years from now.
That's what happens to ancaps, which is why they only exist online.
>Do you think the reason why China or North Korea or the USSR didn't make a communist utopia because they simply didn't felt like it?
No, it's because they didn't abolish the state. They were more akin to state capitalists. Tyranny must be abolished, not change hands. That's the whole point of anarchism.

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>>139520382
No

"8,000,000 killed by unclean water"
>What are state run water/sewerage plants staffed by a skeleton crew of unqualified chucklefucks
>What are terrible zoning regulations overburdening state supplied water with low income housing
>What are illegal ghettos built on rivers that use the river as both drinking water and sewage disposal

"7,665,000 killed by hunger"
>Forgetting how farmers are screwed over by the state with food import and export tariffs, allowing only for the mega-farmers to take a gamble by barely breaking even with food production
>What are state lobby groups forcing farmers through regulation to work through a crippled monopoly of seed and pesticide manufacturing firms

"3,000,000 killed by vaccine-preventable diseases"
>What are 10-year drug trials, among other regulations, imposed by the state, skyrocketing production and development prices of once affordable vaccines
>What is abysmal government education that teaches no form of hygiene etiquette or ways to prevent transmittable diseases
>What are piss poor infrastructure management, leading to state-dependent populations becoming festering hotbeds for preventable diseases that could be quarantined and treated

"500,000 killed by malaria"
>What are lobbied patent laws, forcing drug companies to charge extra for anti-malaria drugs and anti-malaria nets
>What are imposed regulations and passport bureaucracies crippling mobile-clinics and NGO's that actually go out and spray for malaria or hand out nets
>See above mentioned lack of education provided by the state to see why people dying of malaria often know nothing about it

Finally:
>What are police-state governments fighting civil wars with their own people
>What are rebel groups in such areas killing off aid workers, hording foreign aid supplies to sell for weapons to fight the corrupt government (whom forbid the honest population of defending themselves in the first place, punishable by incarceration) and terrorize the people.

>>139510724
>>Libertarian right = nature/the market should create hierarchy (natural fascism)
>Let the rich rule everything: the ideology
YES THATS WHAT HE SAID NO??????

>>139524723
Inequality is good. Hierarchy is good.

The current (((international capitalist))) system is diseased, but markets are the most efficient system for distributing resources by their availability to where they are needed that have been discovered.

Gommunism, even your perfect utopian leaderless nu-male gommunism, fails because it has no price system and no efficient way to determine where resources are needed.

That's why so many people starve.

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>>139524689
>I guess it is a good thing that you perceive our youth are Ancaps. They must have seen too much tyranny to given in to socialism.
Most youth actually hate capitalism. There is just a small vocal minority of capitalist enthusiasts who are also teenagers. Food for thought, the average age of /leftypol/ was 24 years old compared to /pol/ where it is 18. Seems like people move economically left as they get older :^)

>>139523957
>Socialists are for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome
incorrect. socialists equate one with the other

>>139524221
The "wealth" capitalists own doesn't really exist. It's just enforced by the government. Without the government, billionaires would cease to meaningfully "own" anything other than the house they sleep in and the personal belongings inside of it.

>>139507309

I don't hate the state, i hate a big state.

>>139525069
How autistic are you?

Anarcho-communism is a literal contradiction. You can't have coordinated and shared means of production without having a strong central authority to force people to share.

AT BEST, you have a situation like anarchist catalonia, where people went around killing employers and living off the carcass of their self-destroyed society for 2 years before everything fell apart. Best part is they were commies so they were against money, but they ended up totally-not-paying people by giving them "labor coupons" (which totally isn't money) so they could totally-not-buy goods and services from each other.

>>139510724
>when your ideology is so retarded that implementing it requires abolishing it

>>139512000
>slowly being absorbed

maybe read the most well known anarchist literature of all time THE CONQUEST OF BREAD

>>139525144
Right because people like being able to rely on mostly stable organizations with agreed monopolies on violence so that contracts can be enforced.

AnCaps like the idea of arbitrators and PMCs but history shows us that people like states and hierarchies. That's why they keep making them.

>>139525028
>Inequality is good. Hierarchy is good.
t. bootlicker

At least be honest about what you are, a statist/authoritarian.

>>139525347
I am an authoritarian. Hierarchy is human. Just authority is the basis for civilization and all organization.

>>139510724
If capitalism fails because people are too willing to take advantage of each other, communism will (and ALWAYS DOES) fail for that very same reason.

>>139525255
Anarcho-capitalism is a literal contradiction. You can't have the means of production privatized without having a strong central authority to force people to respect its private status.

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>>139524727
>What's your IQ? You seem to be having trouble following this.
Remember when you slid the conversation when you were about to realize that anarchism is not "against hierarchy/capitalism"?
Remember when you were advocating for a society where you cannot know whether a good is worth its costs?
Remember when you thought China and North Korea and the USSR didn't manage to abolish private property because their states?
Remember how I'm talking to you in my second language and yet I can understand the subject better in my second language than you in your first?

I don't think I'm the one with IQ problems here.

>>139525028
>Inequality is good. Hierarchy is good.
Ok but is capitalist inequality and hierarchy good? I'm talking about people who arbitrarily have thousands of times more wealth than the average hardworking prole just because they own private property. Is that rational? Same with hierarchy, for a hierarchy to exist it has to have a rationale, a reasoning. In the animal kingdom, Lions eat gazelle because they are stronger and bigger. What claim to hierarchy does a capitalist have? The arbitrary ownership of private property. See this is the problem when capitalists take the position of defending hierarchy and inequality. They can't justify their need for capitalist hierarchy and inequality in the first place. Capitalists put to shame traditionalists who actually make good arguments for hierarchy and hierarchical systems in the first place.

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>>139525676
I agree. Anarcho-capitalism is fucking retarded too, and it'd quickly just end up with microstates competing with each other, taking each other over, and eventually forming a new de facto state anyway. However, it's still "less retarded" than anarcho-communism, since at least there's some semblance of thought behind it.

But regardless, your tu quoque isn't going to work on me. Anarchism is fucking retarded, period.

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>>139525676
>claims there only private property with a state
>gets debunked
>tries to slide the attention away from the fact you got debunked
>5 post later:
>"You can't have the means of production privatized without having a strong central authority!"
Commies literally cannot be reasoned with. They are too young/nihilistic/emotional/mentally retarded for even the simplest discussion. Their brain literally resets at every 20 min.

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>One person could definitely keep people from intruding upon acres of this without the government's threat of violence

>>139516135
>then one shoots you and nobody gives a fuck because there is no law to enforce it

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>>139507719
The retardedness of natural equality may be one reason why the Wrobel chart is superior to the Nolan chart.

>>139507719
Authoritarian right is a more advanced form of the natural hierarchical state of man and will will evolve us quicker then the natural method.

Show me one (1) good leftist meme

>>139525347
>calls someone bootlicker
>organization that takes money from bankers
>literal corporate and establishment stoolies
kek

>>139526108
He hires a bunch of guards.

The question runs both ways. Lets say I illegally claim a plot of land for myself in an ancom world, and set up defending it. How are you going to take it back without coercion? If there's no state that has legitimate use of coercion, what stops people from claiming private property?

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>>139526454
This one actually makes me chuckle.

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>>139526454
read em and weep, capitalist macaco!

>>139525791
>Remember when you slid the conversation when you were about to realize that anarchism is not "against hierarchy/capitalism"?
>Remember when you were advocating for a society where you cannot know whether a good is worth its costs?
>Remember when you thought China and North Korea and the USSR didn't manage to abolish private property because their states?
No.
>Remember how I'm talking to you in my second language and yet I can understand the subject better in my second language than you in your first?
You became massively confused when the difference between personal property and private property arose as a point of contention. These are two of the most fundamental terms related to anarchism. It showed how uneducated you are on the subject.

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>>139526093
Wow it's almost like someone warned us about this style of argumentation wowiw wow kazow

>>139507309
punching out is an attempt to gain centrist allies aka appeal to normies

>>139522580
Capitalism has existed ever since the advent of currency, you nigger. With the coming of the industrial revolution, corporations and big business gained substantially more influence on politics because they were able to make so much money. It wasn't the birth of an ideology, it was just a change in circumstances.

>>139513987
Capitalism is not a meritocracy anymore then evolution is, just because a few strong rise to the top doesn't mean you're getting the best.

>>139526093
>two different people with different beliefs give their opinions and they're different

anarchist wants no state commie flag is an ML cryptofascist

>>139524689
All ancaps grow and stop being ancaps.

>>139526582
>He creates a miniature version of a state.
Fixed that for you. If anyone should be physically removed from an anarchist society, it's ancaps.
>Lets say I illegally claim a plot of land for myself in an ancom world
There is no "claiming." You use things and expect others not to bother you. You have no magical hold over things you think should be inherently under your control.

>>139513980
only way I'm voting for Tulsi is if I get to fuck her raw and cum inside

>>139526917
>confusing free trade as capitalism

cmon man

>>139526108
Listen you stupid twat. Communists get it right that we should live in communes and share resources, but you fail to comprehend that it only works with families and the religious. People won't fuck their own family members over, due to biological drives. Some random fucker though? You bet.

Despite this, "communists" are heavily anti-family and anti-religion. Women and men who sleep around tend to have broken, failing relationships. They spread STDs. Commies endorse degenerate, unhealthy sexuality. You fuckers hate children and denounce having kids. Everything you endorse destroys the nuclear family, which is and has been historically the most successful survival unit. For humans to not want to fuck each other over, they also need religion. I don't see successful leftist communes, what I do see is Amish and Quaker communes succeeding. I see Asians who have strong family networks getting by.

>>139526093
>>claims there only private property with a state
>>"You can't have the means of production privatized without having a strong central authority!"
What? These are the same thing, but you set your post up like they're contradictory.

>>139526615
I love how communism is inevitable even though it's never happened in the entire history of humanity.

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>>139526108
Have you ever heard of weapons?
http://i.imgur.com/c0bZWlH.gifv

Did you know that historically, fortified defenses can even 20 to 1 odds, in some extreme cases even more?

How come commies in Colombia keep getting murdered by hitmen instead of being able to steal the shit they want? I thought individuals are not actually capable of defending their farms!

>commie leader gets murdered on hospital by farm owners
>some people in comments cheer
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fg1.globo.com%2Fpa%2Fpara%2Fnoticia%2F2017%2F03%2Fhomens-armados-invadem-hospital-e-executam-lider-do-mst-no-para.html
Oh noes, why didn't they just sit there as you expropriate their families property through political subversion!?

>>139527264
>Despite this, "communists" are heavily anti-family and anti-religion. Women and men who sleep around tend to have broken, failing relationships. They spread STDs. Commies endorse degenerate, unhealthy sexuality.
>You fuckers hate children and denounce having kids.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

This is probably the most blatant and retarded strawman I have ever encountered online. I'm not even exaggerating.

I'm actually socially conservative. Your peanut brain is incapable of nuance.

>>139509541
You've never been in management or ran your own business have you?
Just because you think pouring coffee and dealing with customers is the most important work at your local Starbucks, doesn't make it true.
Logistics, staffing, etc are all ridiculously important elements in running that business. Try doing that for a few years and you'll see the number of gray hairs on your grow. Management is stressful and a good manager is worth an entire buildings worth of workers. Theres a reason they're paid more and it's not because of an unfair capitalist system.

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>>139526917
>Capitalism has existed ever since the advent of currency, you nigger.
It literally didn't because tools were easy to acquire and thus the existence of industrial capitalists didn't make sense. Trade, currency, and barter have always existed and will always exist and are not capitalism.
>With the coming of the industrial revolution, corporations and big business gained substantially more influence on politics because they were able to make so much mone
Why do you think they gained influence on politics and power in general. Think for a moment. And most of my ancestors, if not all, did not live under capitalism. Yes they traded but they did not work in factories at behest of a capitalist. How can even you provide an input to this thread if you don't know these basic definitions of the economic systems we're discussing.

Watch this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOKrSov6-TU

>>139527058
The problems with ancapism is that it's just ideological axiomatic garbage. They care more about muh NAP and whether or not that gets broken than they do about having a functional society. Anything pragmatic or useful takes a backstep to ideological purity and "consistency".

Great example right now would be the censorship that's happening on social media and with the domain registrars for sites like daily stormer and stormfront. I think it's pretty clear that we should regulate these services as public utilities. Like water and power, providers shouldn't be allowed to refuse service just because they don't like a person. You can't shut off someone's power for being a nazi. You shouldn't be able to kick them off the internet either. And these things are inherently monopolies and oligopolies that can work together to do this sort of censorship.

Ancaps will scream "MUH FREE MARKET. MUH REGULATIONS ARE ALWAYS BAD NO MATTER WHAT! BUILD YOUR OWN INTERNET!". Fuck that, stop being an ideologue faggot and start being pragmatic. My goal isn't to enshrine muh NAP. The goal should be whatever is best for YOUR PEOPLE. Their mindset is completely fucking retarded at its core.

>>139527380
Because Colombia is a capitalist society a hundred years behind somewhere like the US in terms of social progress.

>>139527615
"Starbucks" doesn't need to exist. We don't need these fucking stupid branded coffee chains to make a cup of goddamn coffee and have somewhere to sit down and drink it. The important things happen at factories.

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>>139527913
>be commie
>claims people are not capable of defending their property
>have your life protected by the state
>still get murdered by civilians
>"a-a-a-ctually, tt-that happened because of the state...."

>>139527066
You miss the point. I'm not an ancap. Lets say I do "recreate a state". Youve got your little commune working, and I convince two of my buddies to get some guns and we're going to go mark out a plot of land and keep it for ourselves. How do you stop me? The hold isnt "magical", its "if you try to stop us and come take what we've claimed, you will be met with violence".

It seems obvious to me you'd need some organization that held the legitimate use of coercion, otherwise property could never be socialized. But such an organization is just "the state" again, which is the same criticism you make of the ancaps.

My fellow statists and I can only laugh at this, you guys come up with the exact criticisms that demonstrate the state is necessary when talking to your ancap/ancom opponent, but then just conveniently forget it when it comes to your own system!

>>139527854
AnCaps will argue that there are a LOT of state artifices holding up that oligopoly of internet company domination, but that's just useless theorizing and not pragmatic. The actual situation is, currently, the gun of the state is on the table, and whoever fights and gets control of it is able to enact their agenda with the legitimized threat of violence under the current political system.

On the "societal reformation" scale, AnCaps have the problem of making everybody want to prefer the NAP but we all know there'd be nonsense like ancapball memes springing out of it.

AnComs, and commies in general, think they can literally reform every aspect of human nature to turn us into soulless bugmen.

>>139528219
People are capable of defending their personal property. The bourgeois, by themselves, are incapable of defending their factories, acres of farmland, ports, etc. You're seriously still confused by this?

>>139528161
How do you get the type of coffee you desire from a bean farm in Colombia to a hot cup in your kitchen without organizational hierarchical structures manipulating privately owned channels and production elements though?

>The important stuff happens in factories

No fuck that. The important stuff happens BETWEEN factories, which takes a LOT of privately owned things to make work.

>>139527802
Corporations as they are right now can't exist without govt. Their charters and their ability to act as an individual person (rather than a business entity) are all supported by govt. Additionally, corporate limited liability is all backed by the govt.
I'm not an ancap, but even I can see that corporations wouldn't exist without the govt providing them legitimacy.

>>139528449
No, you fucking faggot. People are capable of defending almost any property with modern day weaponry. You mess with someone's property in the bad part of the world, you fucking die. Wake up to the real world little boy. I literally gave you multiple examples 1 post ago, and you are in straight up denial.

>>139511688
The confederate is completely out of place. Replace it with the gadsen autist. The confederate should be top right if anything.

>Libertarian Left are the most difficult to understand, but we know it could work.

It's literally impossible to be a libertarian and economically "left". Libertarianism is about liberty, both social and financial. "Left-libertarianism" has about as much to do with libertarianism as Islam does.

>>139507309
Both ideologies are meme tier. You cannot enforce an anarchic society.

>>139528636
But modern day weaponry wouldn't exist without capitalism.

When the commies reduce us to throwing rocks and eating rats we won't have to worry about recreational nukes and automated wifi turrets.

>>139510724
This has to be bait

>>139528161
>"Starbucks" doesn't need to exist. We don't need these fucking stupid branded coffee chains to make a cup of goddamn coffee and have somewhere to sit down and drink it. The important things happen at factories.
Agreed

>>139527854
Interesting post. Have to agree with this. They basically believe these things like an NAP are an end in itself.

>>139527854
Exactly right. The NAP wouldn't even been sustainable due to nobody being able to enforce it. For instance if some guy invaded you're home, murdered you and you're family, who would care? What is there to deter somebody from that action if he just makes sure the only people that would react to it are incapable of reacting or dead?

>>139528753
Marx himself said the same thing.

>>139522344
They wouldn't have to steal shit because the gov't would do it for them.

>>139528504
This.

These commies really don't understand logistics at all. This is why I take solace in the fact that they'd lose in a civil war due to their utter lack of competence when it comes to logistics.

>>139528504
>How do you get the type of coffee you desire from a bean farm in Colombia
International trade since it's an exotic item, although I prefer autarky.
>organizational hierarchical structures manipulating privately owned channels and production elements
Why not
>organizational structures manipulating channels and production elements
You just stuck your ancap words into there without justifying why they're required.

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>>139528636
You literally didn't understand what he said. People can defend their personal property. However, one capitalist CANNOT defend their private property from hundreds of disgruntled workers. It's simply not possible. Capitalists NEED a state to defend and uphold private property rights.

>>139528751
>But modern day weaponry wouldn't exist without capitalism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PLoSMIandg
TOP KEK, also the USSR had more nukes than the US.

>>139528636
>People are capable of defending almost any property with modern day weaponry.
Not when it's 50 fucking miles away from where you live. Do you think the owner of McDonalds lives on his farms? All of them at the same time? And the factories?

>>139527854
ancapism is utopianism.
They're not wrong that if you could somehow magically run a society based on the NAP where no one ever broke it, you'd have a wonderful society. It's the kind of society I wouldn't mind living in, but that's not how the world works.

>>139529237
and genetics were illegal too. Great scientific achievements amirite?

>>139528300
But that's what I mean when I say they're idealogues. They'll argue from a position of "well, heheh, this wouldn't be a problem in MY hypothetical ideal free society!"

Which is completely fucking retarded and useless. We don't live in your hypothetical never-been-tried free society. They refuse to address these situations as they are right now, and that's what bugs the shit out of me.

Perfect example is Molymeme. Claims to be all about free speech. Totally silent on Daily Stormer being AFAIK the first site to be taken off the entire internet for political speech. An absolutely unprecedented turn of events, and he's completely silent. Why? Because it was oligopoly of private corporations, so it's okay. I just think this entire mindset is retarded.

And while it's true that in many instances, monopolies are a result of state interference, this isn't always the case. Things like social networks are inherently monopolistic, because the more people on a platform, the more incentive there is for others to join that platform. Same with how internet domain registrars work.

>On the "societal reformation" scale, AnCaps have the problem of making everybody want to prefer the NAP but we all know there'd be nonsense like ancapball memes springing out of it.
>AnComs, and commies in general, think they can literally reform every aspect of human nature to turn us into soulless bugmen.
Ancaps do the same thing. Not to the same extent, but it's still there. They think they can turn everyone into perfectly rational economic actors if they "just have better schools" and then they can bring about the perfect stateless society (this is what molymeme actually believes, to go back to him)

I reject the idea of basing all principles and ideas in a set of arbitrary axioms, whether it's ancaps or communists. They completely miss the point, that the goal is supposed to be whatever is best for the people, regardless of whether it happens to fit to an economic axiom or not.

>>139528801
You're no better, commie. Communists and anarcho-capitalists are two sides of the same shekel. Communists also have a retarded axiom of "muh equality, muh abolition of private property" that is infinitely WORSE than the ancap lolbergs.

>>139528636
>missing the point this hard

Why do communists always seem to be much more educated and smart then right wingers? Even here in a right winger safe space.

>>139507719
the absolute mad man
you consider us as a dummy ((You)) fool ?

>>139529069
So you believe in a literal global collective of non-self-interested laborers individually providing the means and logistics, all the way from
>the hoe in the ground of a Colombian hill farmer
>the farmers markets where their goods are distributed
>The trucking groups who transport the beans from region to seaport
>The seaport workers
>The intercontinental transport ships and their crews
>The second seaport and all its workers
>The other continent's trucking agents
>The production plant and its every aspect of production, management, accounting, quality control, etc
>the marketing of the product to raise awareness
>The hauling of the final coffee product
>The markets at which the final product is distributed to the consumers
>The machinery required to conveniently process a cup of hot coffee
>Every single uncountable piece of machinery, infrastructure, resources, and equipment required along the way
All of this to seamlessly organize without any hierarchical structure or profit motive for any individual.

In reality
>None of that happens
>Nobody gets coffee
>Or any other food really
>Everyone starves.

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>>139528820
Exactly. What would happen if we actually had an ancap society is that each landowner would make up his rules for how to behave on his property, businesses, and rentals. This would basically be the same thing as a microstate with its own constitution, governance, laws, taxes, etc. So you'd start up with a bunch of microstates. These microstates would compete with each other, and take each other over (either via warfare or purchase). These microstates would conglomerate into increasingly larger and more complicate states, until you'd just have the exact same thing as before.

It's like trying to have a tub of water without any walls of the tub.

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>>139529237
>didn't read what I wrote
>assumed I was wrong
>repeated the same dogma FOR THE FOURTH TIME
So, this is the power of communist ideologues.... Woah....

>obviously capitalists can't protect their property :^)
Meanwhile in the real world:
>commie leader messes with farmers
>farmers shoot him
>he doesn't die
>they go to the hospital to finish the job
>some people cheer for it
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fg1.globo.com%2Fpa%2Fpara%2Fnoticia%2F2017%2F03%2Fhomens-armados-invadem-hospital-e-executam-lider-do-mst-no-para.html

If even with the protection of the state, commies and protesters and political subverters still get murdered in third world countries, imagine without the protection of the state. Pinkos would be fucked.
>squat on propert? Get forcefully removed
>protest and break the window of a store? Store owner will try to track you down to make you repay every dime
>trying to spray someone's wall? Justification for rubber bullets and tasering.

>>139527615
>Management is stressful and a good manager is worth an entire buildings worth of workers.

Bad managers are far more common than good managers, and under free market capitalism there remains no efficient way of removing them so long as the false idea of "ownership" is hopelessly entangled in the mix.

You use Starbucks as an example. It's often the case that the lazy day shift manager is kept in her job because she has big tits and the franchise owner is banging her. Her bad decisions are eradicated by a falsely devalued labor market where businesses with a ridiculously high employee turnover never fail or suffer natural market consequences for bad decisions because there's an infinite supply of low wage workers. The workers directly suffer as a result. Free market capitalism is infinitely corruptible and it must be smashed.

The fact remains that owners are in a constant state of warfare with the human productive means of generating their capital, and it's practically identical with the condition of slavery that has existed for time immemorial. Only the condition of the modern worker is far worse than the ancient slave. It's like the fisherman who isn't allowed to own the net that he uses to feed himself or his family because of the violent resistance of the capital classes to the workers' owning of their own capital that they make productive with their own hands.

Revolution is necessary, revolution is vital. It is literally the fight for the survival of the working classes.

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>>139529444

>>139519691
> Hamburg cholera outbreak

>>139529237
The USSR stole all their technology from the capitalist west bruh

>>139529368
Exactly. Both communism and ancapism are both utopian bullshit. It allows both these groups to do this annoying talmudic argumentation where they get to argue that "that wasn't REAL communism!" and "that wasn't REAL capitalism!", because they've played these semantic word games where it only "counts" if there's 100.000% perfect adherence to the base concept.

And so both sides will always argue from a hypothetical scenario of what their ideal theoretical society would be like. Perfect example would be in molymeme's recent video where he debates a fascist on capitalism. He gets to just shrug off the current system as "not real markets" and argue from his never-been-done theoretical idealized scenario. It's utter nonsense.

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>>139530188
>Bad managers are far more common than good managers
Why aren't you a manager? Wouldn't a good person who understands what a good manager is obviously have some easy competitive advantage?

>under free market capitalism there remains no efficient way of removing them
Do you buy bad products over their competitor just to maintain the ownership of a manager?

>there's an infinite supply of low wage workers
Why don't you open a business if wage working is so artificially infinite? If wage work is so artificially undervalued, how come you can't hire a gardener, a driver, a maid, and so on? If that's so artificially undervalued how come only a business that is productive enough is capable of affording human laborers?

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>>139530114
Depends what kind of farm it is. If the farm owner employs hundreds of mexicans to harvest all it takes is one communist manifesto and they will be up in arms against the lone capitalist :^)

>>139530274
>Even with this ridiculous claim USSR was the first into space
Lol

>>139530743
Yeah they shot a very uncomfortable man into orbit and then he came back.

Very impressive wowwiewow

Noticed there wasn't any USSR flag on the moon though~

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>>139530743
>Depends what kind of farm it is. If the farm owner employs hundreds of mexicans to harvest all it takes is one communist manifesto and they will be up in arms against the lone capitalist :^)
Except for the dozen countries in which farm south american commies trying to invade property just end up getting shot at and achieve absolutely nothing with their marxist theory and the ZERO countries that made communism without statist subversion.

>>139530915
>Very impressive wowwiewow
It actually is.

>>139530096
>non-self-interested
Read some Stirner. True self interest does not respect private property.
>>the hoe in the ground of a Colombian hill farmer
>>the farmers markets where their goods are distributed
>>The trucking groups who transport the beans from region to seaport
>>The seaport workers
>>The intercontinental transport ships and their crews
If this all occurs in Colombia as a capitalist country before trade is done, then it's irrelevant.
>>The second seaport and all its workers
>>The other continent's trucking agents
>>The production plant and its every aspect of production, management, accounting, quality control, etc
>>The hauling of the final coffee product
No different from its workers now, except they're entitled to the profits of their own labor.
>>The markets at which the final product is distributed to the consumers
If something was imported from another country, it would simply be in the hands of whoever imported it. If a collective of people imported it using the web of labor describe above, they would democratically decide what to do with it. Was it imported because the people of communities wanted coffee? If so, it would be available in whatever way they saw fit, traded again, etc.
>>The machinery required to conveniently process a cup of hot coffee
>>Every single uncountable piece of machinery, infrastructure, resources, and equipment required along the way
Created in worker-run factories.
>>the marketing of the product to raise awareness
lol

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>>139530915
>Yeah they shot a very uncomfortable man into orbit and then he came back.
Which no one has done before. Do you know how difficult that actually is.

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>>139530743
uimm no sweetie. egyptian kings were the first in space

>>139531176
Apparently not very since a bunch of Slavs did it.

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>>139531080
>Stirner

self interest is a spook

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>>139507719
I'd agree with this

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>>139531054
Cuba is the best country in the caribbeans. You can analyse virtually every non-meme indicator and you will see Cuba at the top.

Meanwhile capitalist Haitians eat dirt.

I've never understood why dumb right-wingers always love to point out Cuba as a failure of socialism, when it is one of their best examples.

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>>139530915
>Noticed there wasn't any USSR flag on the moon though~
There are in the US though, especially at the Donald Trump rally

>>139531386
>Cuba is the best country in the caribbeans
That's only because it's the whitest country in the caribbean. Communist czechoslovakia was also probably a better place than capitalist liberia, but that doesn't really mean anything.

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>>139531263
>Apparently not very since a bunch of Slavs did it.
Someone sounds tsundere

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>not being a radical centrist anarchist

>>139531176
Let's not slide too much shall we, let's focus on the fact that it took even after three posts of me explaining something to you, you still deny it and move on with your dogma.

You still think some random commies in farmlands can just steal property if they are a majority, you still think people will start a civil war to plunder shit and not only that, but also that it would work and people wouldn't dedicate their lives to brutally destroy you and take back what's theirs.

You are so delusional you can't even concede a single point that you were obviously wrong. No matter how many videos I show you of shop owners shooting robbers or farmers drive-bying commies.

You can't wage a war you are not willing to fight, against an opponent who is sure to dedicate his life to take back what's his. You want to steal shit and sit there and enjoy what you stole, you don't want to be looking after someone sneaking up on you with a gun for the rest of your life. People are willing to die for their family and their property, they are not willing to die and live their lives for shit they stole.

>>139507309
Anarchists have no morals, they are no better than animals

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>>139531386
Especially impressive because they've been embargoed by the US for 50 years now. Now that the USSR is gone they don't have a major power to trade with either.

>>139531606
>Not being a radical National Capitalist Bolshevist

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>>139531730
>b-b-but muh UPB!

>>139531564
lol no, Cuba is 50% nigger.

Dominican republic and Puerto Rico are whiter

>>139528801
>>139528161

> "Starbucks" doesn't need to exist. We don't need these fucking stupid branded coffee chains to make a cup of goddamn coffee and have somewhere to sit down and drink it.

I'm not against the production and consumption of luxury goods, but I think conspicuous consumption is inefficient and should be discouraged and eliminated where possible. It's like a bad habit.

I think coffee has its place, I think foamed milk and espresso drinks have their place, and I think cafe culture has its place. It doesn't have to take the form of Starbucks though. I think a modified workers' canteen with an automated espresso machine and some form of coffee-serving robot would be ideal. It needn't be larger than four tables and a few chairs here and there, large enough to be social and small enough to be cozy.

>>139531899
lel, that's not true. None of them are "white", but there's a lot more niggerblood in PR and DR than Cuba.

>>139531386
>when you compare it to the other whole 3 countries in the Caribbean, which are negro slave countries, Cuba is actually the best!
Fun fact: Cuba had a higher gdp than Japan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNixpGx4AV8
It was wealthier than Black areas in US. Now, blacks in US who can't even hold their pants up can get a minimum wage work for a multiple of the Cuban purchasing power.

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>>139507309
Why would you ever expect Anarchist and Anarcho-Capitalist to get along?

We are morally opposed, always have been.
We believe in private property, they believe in communism.

>>139531899
Cuba is 50% nigger because all the white ones went to Miami

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>>139507719
>Left cherishes equality

>>139531832
>complain about capitalism and seize private property of enterprises
>enterprises become OK with embargoing you
>AUUUUGH GAPITALIST ENTERPRISES SAVE ME, TRADE WITH ME
But I thought the cost effectiveness of enterprises was just exploitation which lowers the wages?!

>>139531990
>>139531899

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubans#Genetics
>An autosomal study from 2014 has found out the genetic ancestry in Cuba to be 72% European, 20% African and 8% Native American

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Ricans#Ethnogenesis
>Studies have shown that the ancestry of the average Puerto Rican (including all races) is about 64% European, 21% West and North African (including Canary Islander Guanche), and 15% Taino/Amerindian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Dominican_Republic#Genetics_and_ethnicities
>The genetic makeup of the Dominican Republic's population is estimated to be 52.15% European, 39.57% Black African, and 8.28% Native American on average according to recent genealogical DNA testing

>>139531377
this is perfect

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>>139521431
the larpers would deny it, but us real ancap niggas understand it.

The final conclusion is propertarian monarchy. natural order.

>>139507309
it's absolutly logical...

anarcho-communism is collectivism, it's the idea that humanity should live in lots of differents little communities with no private property (according to what Proudhon wrote about anarchism), Paris actually tried that with la commune de Paris in 1871, way before it was "cool"

anarcho capitalism is about individualism and private property...

In the end, of course they hate each other, it makes a lot of sense

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>>139521431

>>139530736

> You.
> You.
> You.

The forces of capital have no recourse against logic left but ad hominem and personal attacks. This is why revolution is always inevitable. Violence and coercion is necessary for your hateful system to survive. You must be terrified living in Brazil, knowing you are surrounded by teeming masses of armed and desperate workers who are a heartbeat away from toppling your oligarch honky paradise.

> Why don't you open a business if wage working is so artificially infinite?

Because of what I wrote that you conveniently edited out, you kulak scum.

> the fisherman who isn't allowed to own the net that he uses to feed himself or his family because of the violent resistance of the capital classes to the workers' owning of their own capital that they make productive with their own hands.

Sleep tight, parasite.

>>139532794
> Paris actually tried that with la commune de Paris in 1871, way before it was "cool"

Yeah, and it lasted a whopping 2 months before it collapsed on itself. Turns out that just living off the carcass of the employers you killed only works for so long.

>>139532794
I think you misunderstood the post mate

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>>139529237
I thought the soviet union wasnt real communism though?

because anarchists are fucking retarded

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>>139532822
Agreed. I'm no ancap lolberg, but Monarchy is the best system, although I don't believe it's mutually exclusive, and I wouldn't mind certain aspects of national socialism mixed in as well. Basically a monarchy with a minimalist government that only steps in when things are getting shitty or people are doing things that wreck society (ie, kikes pushing pornography and usury)

Regardless of economics, Monarchy is superior to Democracy. Democracy incentivizes short-term benefits instead of long-term benefits and stability, because you only care about the immediate future of your elected term. That's how you get ridiculous shit like the ponzi scheme social security/medicare system. Everyone can see it's heading toward disaster, but no one wants to fix it, because they want to keep getting elected. Monarchy puts more emphasis on long-term goals and stability.

>>139533212
It's like how Venezuela was a shining example of how great communism is... until the system fell apart, and then it became "state capitalism" or "not REAL communism"

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>>139532827
>wage work is artificially undervalued, as if there's infinite wage work
>managers are almost always bad
>"why don't you become a capital manager then?"
>THE FORCES OF CPAITAL HAVE NO RECOURSE AGAINST LOGIC BUT AD HOMINEM AND PERSONAL ATTACKS, YOU MUST BE AFRAID OF HOW WORKERS WILL KILL YOU

> the fisherman who isn't allowed to own the net that he uses to feed himse
Reminder: Interest rates are at near zero. Investment clubs exist everywhere. Kick starting a business has never been as easy as today.

Oh wait, of course, you are just being oppressed, and even though you could totally run a multinational enterprise, investors just haven't believed in your genius level intellect and your hard work so you can't even start a small little shop. I empathize a lot with you. It's hard for us intelligent people to be so capable and be exploited by the capitalist enterprises like that. I myself could totally run an airplane making business right now become a millionaire easily, but I just can't get the funds to start.

>>139529237
USSR wasn't real communism. Nice try.. Capitalism wins again.

>>139524727
>No, it's because they didn't abolish the state. They were more akin to state capitalists. Tyranny must be abolished, not change hands. That's the whole point of anarchism.

You need the Revolution first. The owning classes employ limitless brutality against the workers. The Revolution needs armies. The Revolution needs systems. The Revolution needs leaders. This is the state and it can't be abolished until the Revolution has been won.

>>139507719
>Libertarian right = nature/the market should create hierarchy (natural fascism)

Fascism's Corporatism would be closer to Anarcho-Syndicalism than ancap.

>>139533753

> managers are almost always bad

Putting words in my mouth again, you kulak monkey from Curitiba?

Sleep tight you smart-mouthed howler monkey, never knowing where the bullet that kills you will come from.

> hurr durr why aren't you successful

I'm successful enough not to live in Brazil, which has more murders than even Mexico.

>>139533944
>This is the state
Yes, and it has historically been unaccountable and tyrannical. Surprising, right? Class consciousness and collective action is the only way. That's a real revolution. Marxism-Leninism is proven cancer.

>>139510724

1989 was the troll line people. Stop giving him (you)s

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>>139533632
>Regardless of economics,
>Democracy incentivizes short-term benefits instead of long-term benefits and stability, because you only care about the immediate future of your elected term.

What your describing is rate of time preference, you're preaching AnCap econ 101 my dude. welcome to the club.

>>139519691
you missed off "cancer" and "natural causes"

>>139523952
wjy is this the case?

it really puzzles me. lefty memes are almost exclusively horrible. righty memes hit the spot about 20-30% of the time (which is a great meme efficiency).

why why why is this so?

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>>139534454
Is it really natural on a psychological and emotional level for a communist to be dishonest? Do they only think about lying and deceiving and fabricating a false reality to trick others? I don't think I ever, ever, talked with a commie who was not a complete liar.

Also, third time in the same thread:
>low T commie complains about racism
>low T commie gets angry; suddenly becomes race realist and xenophobic
Hmmm, it's almost as if principles are secondary to them. The emotional attacks are such a priority that any principle will cease to exist in order for the emotional attack to be more effective. Emotions first logic and principles second.

>>139533632
As much as i love monarchy i can't call it the best as it's not a ethno-meritocracy.

>>139523957
>Education, healthcare, and automation would ensure people would be able to pursue their interests
hahahaha.

like in China or Russia or East Germany or Cuba or Cambodia?

hahahahahahahahha

you ideology has failed totally - absolutely - on every point - everywhere it has been implemented. m8 - OPEN YOUR FUCKING MIND AND HEART hahahahahaha

>>139533944
The revolution doesn't end though. It keeps revolting. New kulaks are found, new wreckers to blame for the failings I'd your system, new scapegoats, meanwhile more and more people starve.

If people weren't so resilient and inclined to self-interested enterprise, the revolution would continue until you were all dead.

Then there'd be no owners, no labor, no suffering.

You'd get the equality you dream of.

Unremembered death

>>139519793
Basically the East India Trading company. Royal/state charters for corporate activity backed with government violence.

>>139535595
Interesting post, Bananinho

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>>139536973