Lets forget race and immigration for a few minutes. You destroy

No because you're reimbursed, a better system would give those workers cover for it.

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No I like food and a stable source of income

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>>139080867
no, you get paid and don't have to own any of the risk of owning the company. you've obviously never started a business, it a fuckton of work up front and a fuckton of risk that workers don't have to take on. grow up faggot.

also... >You destroy your body shoveling and carrying

commies are so silly with their descriptors. you are obviously a sheltered kid whose never done manual labor, thats why you talk like you're writing a book.

>>139080867
>Shouldn't you own a piece of the factory?
But I'm not a shareholder, anon.

>>139083249
>People who owns a piece of a company which they are not working for

The worker are entitled to a piece of the company.

>>139080867
>Lets forget race and immigration for a few minutes.
NO. LEFTIST. NO. FUCK YOUR SHIT. THIS IS YOUR IDEOLOGY THAT DID THIS. IT'S LEFTISM. MASS IMMIGRATION FROM THE THIRD WORLD IS YOUR ISSUE. YOU OWN IT. DON'T TRY TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT. FUCK YOU. WE DON'T NEED THIRD WORLD MILITARY AGE ANTI-WESTERN LOW SKILLED MEN. BUT YOU LEFTISTS INSISTS ON BRINGING THEM HERE AND DUMPING FREE SHIT ON THEM THAT WHITE PEOPLE PAY FOR AND THEN BLAMING WHITE PEOPLE WHEN IT DOESN'T WORK OUT.

And then you want to come here and say "hey guys let's discuss economic policy, not immigration, and argue over whether or not your stuff belongs to you." YOU'RE NOT GETTING A DISCUSSION ON ECOMICS. YOU'RE GETTING A FUCK YOU. GET YOUR UGLY BROWN PETS THE FUCK AWAY FROM MY TOOTHBRUSH.

>>139084473
Kek

>>139083918
>The worker are entitled to a piece of the company.
No no no no. See, a white person works, and then a percentage of his money goes to pay for public schools, WHICH ALL NON-CITIZEN CHILDREN ARE ALLOWED TO ATTEND. YOUR ideology, LEFTISM, forces workers to pay for assistance for people that hate them. UNLIMITED ASSISTANCE. Don't talk about workers' rights. As a leftist the only "right" you care about is replacing white people, and anything else is oppression.

>>139084473
You want to talk immigration? Fuck immigrants. If they are not working they should be sent back. The worker should own the factory, brown or white.

>>139085036
Leftism? I do not want immigrants who are not willing to work. Nothing should benefit a person who is not willing or able to work.

>>139080867
>You destroy your body working that assembly line. You destroy your body shoveling and carrying.
>Shouldn't you own a piece of the factory?

This is how works fuckwit.

You go to trade school and get an apprenticeship and work for peanuts until you're qualified because the state mandates it. Then you work for a contractor and save your money to buy your tools and equipment (capital) while gaining experience and connections. You then start your own business as a sub and you hire young men to work for you. You can't do this forever as you get old so eventually your run the company doing the management while the younger blokes work for you and benefit from your experience.

>>139085395
The only beneficiary of labor should be the state, and the state should take care of it's working, able, healthy, workers.

>not just starting your own factory

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>>139080867
>Lets forget race
nope.

>>139085051
>The worker should own the factory, brown or white.
Does it concern you at all that ONLY browns will vote more than 50 percent in favor of your retarded ideology. That alone should be a red flag, the fact that white people, who created or assisted in the creation of ALL THE NICE HAPPY CLEAN COUNTRIES in the world today, will NEVER support your system.

>>139085245
What the fuck is it with leftists and your obsession with "work"? What does work mean? According to you owning a business doesn't require work. Nigger we want to work less. We want people to have free time and not be slaving away on a farm all day. But whenever an individual, or a nation for that matter, tries to get ahead and do something meaningful you drag them down with taxes until they're poor workers in need of government assistance. You create the problem and then use the problem YOU CAUSED as an excuse to take money from even MORE people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs

Fuck capitalism
Fuck lazy immigrants

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>>139080867
No you fucking queer, because you didn't design the factory. You didn't spend the time thinking of the intricacies of how to correctly design the assembly lines, ask for a loan from the banks and then successfully make it. You didn't face the ups and downs of this design (i.e. cost a lot early on which means you get in a lot of debt), nor did you care. You simply worked to pump products out for profit.

The leader of the factory, however, should be leading, and be seen actively participating in complex tasks that only he is fit for. He should also encourage productivity and boost morale among his surroundings to make sure the workers have a sense of duty and loyalty towards the company. And thus, you have national socialism, a pro-individual property type government that maximizes production by ensuring group cohesion via racial cohesion.

>This factory is owned by someone
>People work in this factory and get paid to do so
>Let's give it to the workers who don't have any claim on it as they already receive compensation for their labour

Oh sorry, I forgot filthy commies don't believe in property rights because they're entitled little shits.

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>>139080867
This also applies to you faggot...

Not everybody has such low ambition in life that they want to spend it working in a factory. If I wanted to own a factory, I'd open my own under c a p i t a l i s m.

>>139086488
Work, overthrow, own, convert.

>>139080867
>Shouldn't you own a piece of the factory?

Already tried this at the last and final factory I worked in. The place was up for sale and buying it would have been about 30k per person. No one wanted to do it, so it was bought out and they all took a pay cut.

Dictatorship of the Proletariat is a pipe dream. The proles that it means to empower certainly don't have the drive or ambition to be self employed or own a company as laborer/owners.

>Cletus, Jamal and Paco run a fast food joint
>out of business in 3 months after Cletus eats 30% of the profit, Jamal tries to fuck every female customer, driving away significant portions of the populace away and Paco takes 1 hour joint breaks every 1 hour.

>>139080867
nope, you should fina a jod where you don't have to tear your body apart for someone elses profit.
Become your own boss, or get shitted on

>>139086699
>I can't afford to buy my own factory, which is unfair, so I'll steal one at gunpoint
>All workers should do this
LEFTISM

>>139086699
I work for my own company, which I obviously own. Under communism, I wouldn't have my own company; I'd be forced to work in one of the government's factorys. Commies have no ambition and want to blame people like me for their failures. Get fucked.

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>>139086347

I'm almost disappointed how quickly this commie faggot got shut down.

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>>139087752

>muh socialist wet dream friens

>>139088202
Who?

>>139080867
You mean like when I buy shares in the company on a stock exchange?

i want you to die, no amount of argument and reason can change that desu

>>139080867
The problem with you idiots is that you ignore how race gave rise to the technological culture that provided a need for factories and production.

>>139080867
No because I'm getting money to work in it, so in a way I own a piece because I'm getting a chunk of the money that it pulls in

stop having conversations with communists, there is no common ground desu

>>139080867
Because anyone can do your shitty minimum wage job while it actually takes a competent person to successfully manage an entire factory. KYS commie scum! Anyone who oppose private property is a literal cuck.

>>139088506
>natsoc flag
what kind of economy would you want?

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>>139080867
learn and save working for a factory, figure out what could be improved, build your own factory and make more money. Capitalism>Communism

we don't want communists to see the light, we don't want you on our side, we want you dead and nothing else desu

>You destroy your body working that assembly line.

Not on modern lines under OSHA. You don't know shit about assembly lines.

>You destroy your body shoveling and carrying.

I don't, but I know how to shovel and carry.

OP confirmed non-worker who needs a Mandela Necklace.

>>139088366
Who the fuck do you think?

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>>139080867
Oh son, I hope you know how to pray.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj0v5Z5Z7Fs

>>139080867
if you want to own a piece of a factory go invest in a factory... voila... now you're entitled to profits. just make sure you invest in the right factory otherwise you could lose all your money.

>>139080867
>Shouldn't you own a piece of the factory?
I did. But I sold it.
I'd like more though.

>>139080867
Wtf I'm a communist now

>>139083918
No, they're entitled to a wage.

>>139089019
Kek OP got rekt

I don't want a piece of the factory. I got a manager position at a fast food joint and asked for a demotion because it was too stressful I'm happy in my bubble doing the same task over and over.

>>139085825
I hear this a lot, does everyone on /pol/ just owns a factory or a business?

>>139090530
of course they don't.
But behind all the bullshit is a man who wants to work, and preferably wants to own his business.
But the state needs him and his business. there's nothing wrong with that, as long as he is nationalist.

>>139085692
This just inserts an unnecessary middleman in the state. Anyone who's ever run a business can tell you that middlemen just drain wealth from the people earning it, be they laborers or business owners.

>>139080867
why would i want to own 1/10000 of a factory? id rather save my wages and go buy 100% of some ranch in the countryside, then i can shoot faggots like you whenever you step onto my property

>>139090530
I run my own business. It generates several million in gross revenue every year.

If you want to argue that I'm an exception, you are arguing that only exceptional people are equipped to run businesses...which means that communism isn't natural, fair, or even possible.

>>139080867
https://youtu.be/ewvTPCJl3F8

>>139080867
Workers did not invest millions of dollars to buy the equipment, the complex, the resources and laborers. They face little risk in joining a company (the opportunity cost of not joining another company which might be more successful than yours, but that is not a straightforward cost). Why should they own the factory if all they do is work the machines and did nothing to actually keep the machines as their own?

Lets say Bob has a wagon and Fred does not. Bob bought the wagon with a loan from the local Jew. Bob uses it to transport goods. Fred also wants to transports goods, but he doesn't own a wagon. Bob would rather not spend his man hours in pulling the wagon. He would rather spend the time looking for more clients to deliver things to. So he hires Fred to use his wagon (the wagon that Bob risked a loan for). Bob and Fred could either agree to share their delivery company half and half, or Bob could pay Fred a commission for each delivery he makes (or a wage or a salary. What ever). Since Bob doesn't want to share his company, he finds someone who agrees to be his employee, (Fred) paying him a commission (as written in the contract). If Bob doesn't pay back his debt with the money he gets from the company, then the Jew gets a pound of flesh. Fred does not risk a pound of flesh.

Why should Fred have a right to someone else's wagon, all because he is operating it? He risks little.

No, I haven't bought nor maintain the machinery so I can't see why besides GIB ME DAT

>>139091365
You beautiful faggot

>>139083130
>no, you get paid and don't have to own any of the risk of owning the company. you've obviously never started a business, it a fuckton of work up front and a fuckton of risk that workers don't have to take on.
The only risk a capitalist take is to lose his capital, thus becoming a proletarian. Sounds like a silly excuse to exploit other proletarians.

>>139096489
>No, I haven't bought nor maintain the machinery
Another fellow proletarian has produced and maintains the machinery; not the capitalist.

>>139080867
> when Lenin died, it turned out that the second man in the communist party, Trotsky, is a traitor. Kamenev, Zinoviev, Bukharin and Stalin overthrown Trotsky and drove him out from USSR.
> A couple years later it turned out that Kamenev, Zinoviev and Bukharin were traitors as well. Glorious comrade Yagodin shot them. Soon, he was executed by Yezhov for being a foreign agent.
> A couple years later it turned out that Yezhov was not a comrade, but just a traitor and foreign agent. so he was executed by Beria.
> After Stalin's death everybody realized that Beria was a traitor too, so Zhukov deposed Beria and executed him.
> Soon, Khrushev discovered that Zhukov was a nasty plotter, so he was sent to Ural.
> Moreover, later it turned out that Stalin was the ultimate enemy and a traitor, so as most of Politburo. Stalin was kicked out of his mausoleum, and Politburo along with their ally Shepilov was disperesed by Khrushev and his comrades.
> Several years later, it turned out that Khrushev was a voluntarist, rogue and harmful man in general, so he was sent to retirement by Brezhnev.
> Soon Brezhnev have died, and it turned out that he was an old retard and the main cause of Era of Stagnation.
> Then there were two other retards, but nobody remembers them because they had died too quickly.
> Then the young, energetic Gorbachev came to power. It turned out that the entire Party consisted of traitors, enemies and foreign agent, so he was going to fix that.
> But the USSR have collapsed. And Gorbachev is now a traitor.

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>>139080867
To keep you is no benefit; to kill you is no loss.

You don't deserve shit. Oh, and by the way, that's a communist motto.

>>139091365
>I'm finding myself in a exceptional situation.
>So that must mean I am myself exceptional.
Well, at least you shitty ideology is improving your self-esteem.

>>139099142
why?

>>139099426
Because the machinery has been bought from another capitalist firm, where other proletarians work for another capitalist.

>he thinks making literal retards have a say in anything related to business is a good idea
>tfw just realized communists are actually just retard rights activists
We have enough retards making business decisions, go push your disability quota bullshit somewhere else.

>>139099142
And he got paid to do that. What's your fucking point?

>>139099390
You don't just one day find yourself running a business by luck, brainlet.

>>139099532
Voluntarily. What's your point?

>>139099532
So? If I call my friend to help me assemble furniture for a beer, should my furniture be his?

>>139099903
>And he got paid to do that.
He didn't get paid the value of what he produced. My point being that using "the cost of machinery" to justify one capitalist's profit only moved the problem to another one's profit.

>>139100457
>He didn't get paid the value of what he produced.
Because he doesn't work the value he produced, faggot. He works for a salary.

>>139083918
People who don't work for the company invest in it. The factory gets more money to do shit, and the person who invested in it gets compensated by earning money from the factory.

The workers who actually work for the factory are compensated for their work by being given money.

If you want to own a part of the factory so bad anon, why not use part of your pay to invest in it?

>>139080867
Shoveling? Factory line? What is this, we outsource that shit.

>>139099931
It doesn't take one day, but you sure as hell need a lot of luck.

>>139083918
>The worker are entitled to a piece of the company.
do you have a single fact to back that up?

>>139100517
Precisely.

>>139100055
>Voluntarily
Because it's his only option not to die. And some day, we will voluntarily take your toothbrush. :^)

>>139099197
tl;dr russia is a woman

>>139100783
under socialism you have to work or die too though, that argument makes no sense

>>139101116
Work yes. Get exploited, no.

>>139080867
No, because you didnt build the factory, you didnt invest in it, you didnt hire the contractors to build it. You're paid by the owner and management to work there, and in exchange for your labor youre compensated with money. If youre going to make an argument for workers, wage is an actual argument. But like most liberal faggots, you use the worst examples to support your arguments. Whether its some thug getting shot by police, or a illegal immigrant flipping burgers for minimum wage

>>139100455
>So? If I call my friend to help me assemble furniture for a beer, should my furniture be his?
If I am to sell the furniture, I'll save some of the money for him, yes (be it in the form of a beer, since he is my friend). Wouldn't you?>>139100455

>>139101166
ohh shit this is true

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>>139080867
Show your flag leaf commiecuck subhuman

>>139080867
>destroy your body working

what kind of weakling are you and how cowardly can you get in front of your countrymen

>>139101166
what's the difference?

>>139101299
You completely side stepped the argument. Your friend is being compensated for his labor. That does not mean he owns the piece of furniture you went out and bought with your money simply because he helped assemble it. You still own it. Your argument is retarded.

>>139101166
>It's not exploitation, if this is done by government functionaries!

Fuck off. This excuse was old by the times of Qin Shihuangti.

>>139101166
Yes because we all know socialist governments dont have a history of exploiting people to death.

>>139080867
Buy their stocks then

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The Labour Theory of Value was debunked in 1870s with the marginal revolution

>>139080867
OP do you really expect people to not strawman and give proper counter-arguments to socialism? I'm surprised nobody called you a Jewish shill or something.

I believe people have the right to own only what THEY use. If you grant someone the usage of your capital to make money, they have the right to keep the product of their labour under socialism. Socialism is simply use-based ownership. All these memes about "muh 100 gorillion" and "muh Soros" are CIA-paid shills

>>139101487
Work means just pay for just work.

Exploitation is as much work as they want for as little pay they can get away with.

>>139088891
By "the light" do you mean capitalist lies? Also, your side is wrong. Anyone with IQ above 120 is immune to the """""""redpill"""""". Your side is simple solutions for simple people

>>139080867
Use some of the money they give you to work there to buy stock in the factory. fucking retarded commies think everything should be handed to them.

>>139101653
so in a capitalist country that has reasonable health and safety regulations, and systems in place to make sure that people are capable of living on their wages, socialism is unnecessary?

>>139099056
This, I'd go further and say even if the capitalist loses his capital he is still okay, like when Trump went bankrupt 6 times yet is still a billionaire.

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>>139101837
Learn how limited liability works you retarded commiecuck

>>139101837
Doesn't that debunk the claim that you need money to make money?

>>139101837
>Not knowing how bankruptcy works

Child confirmed

>>139101837
He was only okay because he had a bunch of other businesses that didn't fail to help him sustain his capital. not because going bankrupt isn't bad.

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>>139101761
You're a smug commie, so you must be smart.

Riddle me this: are you going to eat your mother when your country turns into Venezuela 2.0 and you inevitably run out of food?

>>139101804
>so in a capitalist country that has reasonable health and safety regulations, and systems in place to make sure that people are capable of living on their wages
This is the core ideal behind socialism. Look at Norway for an example.

>>139101915
>limited liability

So piggy takes no risk at all then. Remind me why he can sit on his ass making millions off the blood and sweat of the proletariat again?

>>139083918
What if it's a useless nigger worker?

>>139101915
Limited liability is bullshit. What right does someone have to effectively to take a larger investment that they could pssibly pay back, and then when shit hits the fan, just give back like 20% of the investment because that's what his shitty LLC was worth. Another spoooooook

>>139080867
>You destroy your body working that assembly line
Who the fuck works in an assembly line in 2017? You guys are so fucking anachronistic.

>>139102185
I was unaware that the workers of Norway owned the means of production

If the workers owned the means of production, how on earth would they know how to efficiently run the businesses they now collectively hold?

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>>139101761
>Anyone with IQ above 120

Read a book bigots xD xD.

Pure cringe

>>139102225
change the laws then, it has done a million times

>>139080867

>You destroy your body working that assembly line. You destroy your body shoveling and carrying.

This isn't the 1800s, most of us work in comfortable offices, myself included.

>Shouldn't you own a piece of the factory?

You can if you want -- you're free to do whatever you want with your pay.

>>139102245
duuh, they would elect representatives and give them special powers over everyone else

>>139102365
I always lol at commies who don't understand that le ebil corporations are literally systems to "own the means of production" through stocks.

>>139102235
I work in a supermarket and all the guys who've been here for a few years have permanently messed up backs from repetitive heavy lifting. Meanwhile the executives dine on caviar and champagne and get multi million dollar bonuses that we payed for with our bodies

Capitalism has failed

>>139102182
>"muh Venyzuaaala"
Yeah maybe the Capitalist opposition has a monopoly on the food production and 2/3 of the market is run by the private sector, but ya know, socialism

Also, I wouldn't be so condescending considering you live in a country where children live in their mother's homes until they're 30. Added to the extra bonus of being a basement dwelling shitlord /pol/yp

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>>139102201
No you retarded commiecuck subhuman. Trump took loans from banks and investors invested in the Atlantic city casino market and when things went bad he declared bankruptcy and wrote down those loans. There is literally nothing wrong with that legally or morally

>>139102225
Why do you care if investors (aka huge banks and high wealth individuals) lose their money cuck? Also it's voluntary exchange the investors can ask for personal guarantees to give the loans which is what Trump did and lost billions

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>>139080867
>You destroy your body shoveling and carrying.

>exercise is bad
>shovels are state-of-the-art workplace tech
>I can't buy stock in my company

>>139102490
Oh so you are telling me the armed social revolutionary coup didn't nationalize food production as a first measure?? Gee i wonder why

>>139080867
>implying a significant amount of people "shovel and carry"
>implying it destroys your body if you're not an idiot about it

>>139080867
PROTIP: THE USSR OPPOSED MASS IMMIGRATION OR IMMIGRATION OF ANY KIND

IF YOU ARE A COMMIE AND GO "WE NEED IMMIGRATION" YOU SHOULD BE GULAG'D

>>139102485
>I work in a supermarket and all the guys who've been here for a few years have permanently messed up backs from repetitive heavy lifting
And I work out every other day lifting weights far heavier than they do.

Those managers drink champagne because they're actually smart and not low iq niggers.

>>139102327
Law said that peasants give over 80% of the crops they produce to the landlord and were not allowed to leave the land

Law said that peasants whose family members were hanged had to pay the expenditure of the sentence or they would be hanged too

See the flaw in your argument yet?

>>139102245
Because shareholders sitting in their mansions know much more than the workers sweating on the ground right?

>>139102618
>lifting and shunting uneven and randomly shaped loads into awkward places is comparable to lifting weights in a gym

How do I know you have no life experience?

>>139102495
>right-wing
>using Stirner
Have you even read his book? He's a fucking anarchist, idiot

Also, being given one single investment option is not voluntary. Fuck off with ancap talking points

>>139102642
As a matter of fact, they do. Knowing how to tighten a screw does not make you an expert in the automobile industry...

>>139102630
No i really don't, that law isn't still in effect

Do your thing man, study law, get really smart, and beat them, afterall you obviously are woke to their schemes so you must be more intelligent than everyone else, you could easily raise to the top in this dog-eats-dog system

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>>139102614
>THE USSR OPPOSED MASS IMMIGRATION OR IMMIGRATION OF ANY KIND

No it didn't. The USSR imported millions of Africans and other 3rd worlders

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Russian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter#East_Germany

>>139102758
If you're not a dumb nigger you know the proper form not to injure yourself. Chances are your coworkers are obese hambeasts who fake their "injuries" to get government gibs

>t. someone who had to work for daddy growing up and lifted "le heavy weight"

>>139080867
Start your own fucking factory, you economic illiterate.

>>139102495
Greeks have no excuse to be capitalists given your great figures like Yanis Varoufakis

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>>139102766
How is the Atlantic city casino market the only investment option you turbo retard?

>He's a fucking anarchist, idiot

Equality is a spook

>>139102829
Not injuries, back problems from years of straining the same joints and muscles

Pretty much everyone from the construction industry gets this

You are retarded

>>139102950
>reddit spacing

>>139102844
Proletarians can't get million dollar loans to start factories with

>>139102944 You cannot have economic equality without sacrificing personal freedom, libtard.

>>139103002
>what are banks

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This thread is hijacked

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>>139103002
Drumpf turned a million dollars, a few bonds, and made that into a multi-billion dollar empire. If it was so fucking easy to create economic empires, than why don't you try and do it yourself? Cmon, i'm fucking waiting.

>>139102793
HOW FUCKING DELUDED ARE you, EASTERN GERMANY took like 1000 immigrants as contractors, while west germany took 1 million, the most white parts in germany are right now in the communist parts.
>muh USSR imported millions
checks link afro russians, population 40 0000, lel

>worker gets share of profits instead of guaranteed wages
>profits fall, worker gets nothing
>worker gets sacked to decrease costs

>>139080867

You know what destroys your body even faster? Getting shot for "counter-revolutionary activity"

>>139103248
>b-but I strained my back lifting crates! GIBS WELFARE MONEYZ

>>139102241
You confuse socialism with communism.

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>>139103255
You could have just said that the amount of those immigrated to the USSR was minuscule compared to that of it's overall population. calm your shit, Austriafag.

>>139103348
Naw, if I wanted to get stolen money in order to fix my back, I will do it myself.

Besides, who the fuck lifts crates?

>>139103389
you're confusing social democracy with socialism
socialism is a society in which the workers own the means of production, but that has not eliminated currency and class distinctions yet; in Marx's own writings he called this the "lower form of communism"

>>139080867
>You destroy your body working that assembly line. You destroy your body shoveling and carrying.
>Shouldn't you own a piece of the factory?
Perhaps you could buy a piece of the factory with the compensation you receive from "destroying your body".

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>>139099197
Epic.

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>>139103470
>>139103389
C O M M U N I S M, S O C I A L I S M, call it what you like, there's very little difference in the two.

>>139103551
Communism is socialism enforced and controlled by the state.

>>139103551
ignorant

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>>139103408
when someone compares immigration to eastern Germany with immigration to western germany I get triggered

>>139101804
>so in a capitalist country that has reasonable health and safety regulations, and systems in place to make sure that people are capable of living on their wages, socialism is unnecessary?
Well first, on average, every proletarian is capable of living on his wage, no matter the regulations in place in this or that country. That is precisely what a wage is: the value of the worker's labour power, that is the value necessary for him to live and be able to work another day, and have children who will be able to work another day.

But wage workers are precisely producing MORE value than what they need to live: the profit. Worse: they are allowed to produce the value they need to live only as long as they produce profit.

Sidenote: it makes no sense to consider capitalist countries separately; capitalism is global, and so will be socialism.

>>139103470
sicking to marx in economic theory is like sticking to freud in psychology

ie we have better theories now.

>>139101492
>Your friend is being compensated for his labor.
And a wage worker is not: he is being compensated for his labour POWER, which own value is below what it can produce when it's used. Hence: the profit.

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>>139103606
I see no difference, aside one of them does not even trying to be hip with the kids anymore with promises of fee colledge.
>>139103624
On nuu muh fee fees r suu hurt!

>>139103695
so I'm supposed to talk about socialism without citing Marx, Lenin or Trotsky? That sounds asinine and pointless

>>139102490
But I love my work, kiddo. I don't hate myself like most nazi larpers that you get to talk to.

Anyway, you haven't answered my question. Are you going to eat your mother? How about your dad?

What are you going to do when you run out of toilet paper? How angry are you going to be when you find out that you're late for your bread line?

And really, I can be condescending all I want. I've seen communism with my own two eyes, unlike che guevara wannabes from countries like Sweden and France.

I'm not even mad at you, I'm just going to wait till your life turns into a complete, soul-crushing nightmare, and then I'm going to point at you and laugh with the empathy of a fucking Red Khmer.

>>139101506
>>It's not exploitation, if this is done by government functionaries!
Nice strawman. Except there is no government in socialism. And no exploitation indeed.

>>139101533
>socialist governments
There can be no such thing.

>>139085395
That is not how it always works in the u.s. it really depends on how smart you are. Some tradesmen are making well over 100k by their early thirties.

Physical activity does not destroy your body, drinking and poor nutrition does.

Modern society rewards intelligence, both in white collar and blue collar jobs. It is unfair, but that is how life is.

>>139103459
>Besides, who the fuck lifts crates?
Imaginary people in his imaginary fantasies.

99% chance he's an upper class jewish liberal with a dozen nigger nannies to take care of him.

>>139080867
Economic oppression is not the end-all be-all of the entire reality. There are problems inherent to capitalism that could be fixed by a socialist system like greed, parasitism, gluttony, unjustified power et cetera, but beside the economic issue, there are race/immigration, nations, civilizations, governance, social relations and a whole religious, philosophical world too. Socialism is a near-sighted ideology. You follow historical materialism under the pretense that oppression is inherently negative while all other issues (race, religion, nation) are put into a "bourgeois bullshit" catergory and insufficiently examined.

>>139080867
Then who will do the work comrade

>>139080867
fuck communism. the pipedream is incompatible with reality, you 18 year old edgelord.

>>139103772
>I see no difference
Your ignorance isn't relevant to the definitions.

>>139103675
>But wage workers are precisely producing MORE value than what they need to live: the profit. Worse: they are allowed to produce the value they need to live only as long as they produce profit.
profit is the rent charged on wage workers for using machines, tools and techniques that they didn't create

>>139103789
No.
Ideas change and evolve over time. Sure you can talk about Marx, Lenin and Trotsky. You can talk about Stalin if you want too.
Thing is, socialism is an economic theory. It is independent from the dictatorships that have historically plagued communist countries.

>>139103772
>On nuu muh fee fees r suu hurt!
Sorry.

>>139104113
so to you, socialism isn't the worker's control of the means of production, but an arbitrary level of social safety nets independent of the actual economic and labor system the country operates under? I'll stick to Marx thanks

>>139104344
>worker's control of the means of production,
what did he mean by this?

>>139104086
>profit is the rent charged on wage workers for using machines, tools and techniques that they didn't create
No, profit is the difference between the value of wage workers' labour force, and the value then produced by said labour force.
For example: it's only necessary to work 3 hours to keep me alive and able to work, but I effectively work 12 hours. So my boss makes a 9 hours profit off my work.

And yes, wage workers created the machines, tools and techniques used by other wage workers.

>>139102642
I don't think an assembly line worker would know the ins and outs of market economics and business management.

>>139103551
social democracy and communism is different though

>>139104436
>No, profit is the difference between the value of wage workers' labour force, and the value then produced by said labour force.
You mean "valeur ajoutee"

>For example: it's only necessary to work 3 hours to keep me alive and able to work, but I effectively work 12 hours. So my boss makes a 9 hours profit off my work.
No, that's wrong. Read an economics textbooks, ahmed.

>And yes, wage workers created the machines, tools and techniques used by other wage workers.
No, engineers and other "exploiters" created the technology behind the repetitive, low IQ actions you do.

>>139083130
>don't have to own any of the risk of owning the company
>Because economy should reward gamblers instead of hard working people

>you've obviously never started a business, it a fuckton of work up front and a fuckton of risk that workers don't have to take on. grow up faggot.
Lol. Compared to actually getting up in the working to work a shit job all week, it's a cakewalk. You haven't worked nor read much.

>>139104399
It means that the workers own the factory collectively.

>>139104344
What I mean to transmit is that ideas can transcend their labels. But you were right, what I was talking about was social democracy and not exactly socialism.

>>139104571
>No, that's wrong. Read an economics textbooks, ahmed.
How is it wrong, jamal?

>>139104747
But what does that mean? Who makes the decisions, to buy x or y piece of equipment. How is it integrated into the rest of the economy? Is there a free market and a price system?

The "lol le workers OWN that XD" answer does not explain in realistic terms how the factory would function.

>>139104861
LTV is a bad meme.

>>139080867
Why commie cucks always make it sound like is still the XIX century? The work in factories got mostly specialice and usually you get paid good

>>139104894
Ideally you have assemblies where all workers are represented. Anyone who works there has a right to influence the decisions that guide the factory.
There are companies that work like this, and they exist within capitalism so yeah..

>>139104926
What is LTV, aside from a bad meme?

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Alright, for the sad sacks of shit who were bullied in primary school and want revenge by stealing the bullies money with help of Berney Sanders, perk the fuck up:

>You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it
>Whatever someone receives without working for it, someone has to work for it ny receiving.
>You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of it.
>The government cannot give without the government taking from somebody else
>Then half of the people get teh idea that they needent work because the other half will care for them, the other half will get teh idea that it does no good to work because the other half will reap their benifits, that is when the downfall of society begins
>A corporation is just a large buisness that is granted legal protection by the government. Thus, if anything bad that happens that involves a corporations in any way, that is not the fault of the free market, but of the government.
>No one is given the rights to food, water, shelter, clothing, and healthcare for simply existing
>If it involves the government, that is not the fault of the free market.
>"The Working class" is all of America. The "Owning Class" is the government.
>You can tall me about the evils of capitalism when McDonalds hires a million man militia and sends that militia to a foreign country to pillage, torch, and gather slaves to work in the slaughterhouses.
>The way a provider makes money is to take a good or service and sell it at a cheaper price at a better quality than their competetors. Hence, they get rich off of making your life better.
>The free market would had let Wall Street collapse. It was the government that bailed out Wall Street.
> The Current system in America is Socialism for the rich/ work your ass off and hope you can survive for the Poor, not capitalism.
>Crony Capitalism, despite what the name suggests, has nothing to do with capitalism. Is is where the government sells its power to the highest bidder.

>>139104571
>You mean "valeur ajoutee"
I mean the difference between the capital before the cycle of production, and the capital after the cycle of production: profit.

>No, that's wrong. Read an economics textbooks, ahmed.
No that is right. Read Capital.

>No, engineers and other "exploiters" created the technology behind the repetitive, low IQ actions you do.
>Implying engineers are not wage workers.

>>139104399
it's a pretty basic concept, I'm not sure what you don't understand

>>139104436
>No, profit is the difference between the value of wage workers' labour force, and the value then produced by said labour force.
yes, and this difference exists because the workers in a factory aren't responsible for 100% of its income. "profit" is a tax imposed on the workers by their managers, who don't create any physical products, but instead ensure the correct running of the factory, it's input of raw material, and it's export of finished goods. You could argue that this siphoning should be decreased, but I think it's foolish to say it shouldn't exist, unless every worker were to also have a hand in the realms of the managers, which would lead to inefficiency that could cause just as much of a decrease in their labour value as the direct extraction of it by another party

>And yes, wage workers created the machines, tools
under the same principles I outlined above

>and techniques
this isn't necessarily true, people who are not wage workers regularly create innovations that amplify the value of wage labour

>>139104729
> froggy has never been an entrepreneur
> never had to risk it all in the hopes of turning a profit with no guarantees
> never went to work not sure if he would turn a profit or take a loss that day
> gonna tell us all how hard it is to be a wage cuck

stuff it francoise.
ive been a wage cuck, and now i work for myself, and working for myself is MUCH harder.
wage cucks know that even if they just punch in and jack off cuz nobody is buying your overpriced coffee drinks today, you still get to cash a check.

i never know if the day will put me in profit or if im gonna sit on my balls and take a loss, all i can do is hustle and hope the people want what im selling

fuck marx.
fuck engles
fuck proudhon
socialism never works, whether you admit it is marxism or pretend it's something else.

>>139105096
>Why commie cucks always make it sound like is still the XIX century? The work in factories got mostly specialice and usually you get paid good
Why bourgeois cucks always make it sound like it is still the XIX century? Work in factories is still as bad, only it now takes place in countries far away from said bourgeois cucks.

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>>139105469
I feel you, man.

>>139104809
> not exactly socialism
> functionally indistinguishable from marxist socialism
> TECHNICALLY a different thing because... reasons.
> still fails every time it is tried
> wasnt REAL socialism...

go fuck yourself memeflag-fag

>>139105469
You know what propaganda is?
It worked wonders on you.

>>139105524
Do you know why the " bourgeois cucks" are outsourcing to other countries?

>>139080867
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xzAAgS-I_8

>>139105610
I literally explained to him why they're different things you mongoloid

>>139105610
If you follow the conversation you will see that I mentioned a functional white society that implemented social democracy.
Don't worry though, I didn't expect reading comprehension from a burger anyway.

>>139105461
>yes, and this difference exists because the workers in a factory aren't responsible for 100% of its income.
No, this difference exists because the worker's in a factory (and that includes the managers) work longer that what would be necessary to keep them alive. Labour is the only source of value.

>>139105652
To make profit.

>>139105765
>Labour is the only source of value.
As of yet.. but in the future we'll see.

>>139080867

>You destroy your body working that assembly line. You destroy your body shoveling and carrying. Shouldn't you own a piece of the factory?

Tell that to chinese workers you fucking retard.

>>139105755
>white society
>social democracy
Ever heard of a meritocracy?
>>139105824
>To make profit
Love how you cherry picked out that the provider is making a profit by making your life better by giving you a product/service at a better price and a better quality.

>>139080867
I work for a company that pays me in shares of that company. The problem with this system is that soon I'll have enough to want to retire.

>>139105469
>I never know if the day will put me in profit or if i'm gonna sit on my balls and take a loss, all i can do is hustle and hope the people want what i'm selling
What a wonderful society we live in.

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>>139080867
>when you realize modern companies redistribute in the form of giving workers shares

>>139105942
>Ever heard of a meritocracy?
Sure. Social democracy leaves plenty of room for capital and merit, while also providing a baseline of opportunity for every citizen.

>>139105356
> totally not a marxist
> tells everyone to read Das Kapital to understand his blather
> obviously hasnt read it himself, or at least didnt understand it.

marx's dialectic is based on several flawed premises

1: a thing doesnt neccessarily belong to the guy who built it
every carpenter, roofer, painter and bricklayer who worked on your house therefore owns a piece of it, so you better fold out the sofa-bed cuz they are staying over in THEIR house tonight...

> workers deserve more than their wages for their labour
if i buy something, including your labour, i PAID for it. if you want more for your labour, raise your asking price, dont try to jack up the costs after the deal is done.

> a "vanguard" of special snowflakes with elaborate beards is capable of deciding how your life shall be lived, and how much your labour is worth
suck my dick.

> the "vanguard" can be trusted to not serve their own selfish ends, because marxists are just better human beings than everyone else.
history has proved this to be the most dangerous fallacy marx created. it NEVER works.

> economics work best when the selfless philosopher kings of the "vanguard" are micromanaging it from far away in their dachas on the black sea
it must suck to be so stupid and gullible.

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>>139106103
Interesting. And generally, how will this ethnically homogenious socdem society provide this baseline of opportunity for every citizen?

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Comrade, welcome to our Commie nightmare pls report to the nearest FEMA Gulag NOW!

It's Gulag-Zeit :3

>>139080867
With automation these days how many people are actually "destroying" their bodies in factories? And here's my question to you OP. Did you buy the factory? Did you buy the equipment that you use? Did you pay for the material that you use to make the product? Or do you just work there? If so then no you don't deserve a piece

>>139105166
>Ideally you have assemblies where all workers are represented. Anyone who works there has a right to influence the decisions that guide the factory.
Imagine you're a multinational oil company. You literally employ hundreds of thousand of people. Would you let it be run democratically, i.e. the janitor in the oil rig has the same vote as the engineer? (in the real world, it's run by engineers who graduate into management).

>There are companies that work like this, and they exist within capitalism so yeah..
Ask yourself, if they can exist, and if they are superior, why aren't they predominant?

>>139105240
Labour theory of value fucktard.

>>139105640
a hunter never knows if he is gonna come home empoty handed or with a jumbuck in his tuckerbag.
that is reality.
the propaganda is the sack full of lies you have internalized.
you clearly dont know the difference between success and failure, or risk and reward.

>>139105960
thats how it has always been froggy.
nothing is promised, not even tomorrow's breath.
you have to go out and MAKE shit happen or youll be living in your mom's basement for the rest of your life hoping you die before she does, cuz her pension is all that puts chicken tendies on your paper plate

society is the framework of rules and laws we have established to ensure that people like me are not allowed to kill and eat worthless cattle like you.
keep pushing for your anarcho-_________ist dreams frenchy. ill have you turning on a spit the day after your fantasies become reality.
i really enjoy eating Schmoo.

>>139105356
Capital is the fantasy of an unemployed kike who lived 150 years ago. It is like telling me to read Harry Potter. Go fuck yourself, ahmed.

>>139105461
>it's a pretty basic concept
But it isn't. It is usually by the inability of communists to define that concept that you deduce that their whole ideology is horseshit.

>>139106304
You know it's through taxes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

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Was this thot correct in her Tinder recruitment escapade?

>>139080867

You'd be better off advocating for employee owned co-ops and how to get funding for them, than trying to subversively take over business that good men dedicated their lives to building and owning.

>>139106481
you don't even know what I'm talking about

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>>139080867
No. You offer your services to the business owner and you made a deal you'd provide him with whatever service that you provide.
You do your work, get paid, and go home.
You don't have to work in a coal mine if you don't want to, the government would point a gun at you and force you to do it.
Also there's risk associated to everything that you do, when you decide to speed in order to get home quicker you're putting yourself and others at risk. Doesn't mean you should own a piece of the road.
Don't be silly, there are natural hierarchies, and running a business is no joke.
You don't sit on your ass and smoke cigars, this isn't Mad Men.

>>139106627
so much this.

the beuaty of capitalism is you can start a commune, and be as communist as you like, and nobody gives a shit.
hell, if your commune produces good weed you can grow as large as you want with the co-operative, shared, egalitarian profits you make selling that weed.

under socialism, there is no room for entrepreneurship. only the state can decide who plays the game, who wins, who loses, and who goes to gulag for daring to resist
fuck socialism

im not opposed to some socialist principles when it comes to the economy and finances. in fact i think the capitalist system we have currently is doing most of us a lot of damage. i am however opposed to the societal/cultural aspects modern day marxists/leftists subscribe to and i worry that you cannot have one without the other

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>>139106398
I do remember the Antifa logo having the Antifaschistische Aktion lettering, like the OG Antifa had.

>>139106632
> muh special snowflake marxist authroitarian state is totally different from all the other marxist authoritarian socialist states, cuz i want it to be whites only...
> it's totally different from fascism, juche, maoism, leninism, trotskyism, zapatistaism, etc etc etc
yeah, youre the smartest kid oon the short school bus sonny.
nobody can understand your genius as you deconstruct classical marxism, rearrange the rhetoric and divide it by potato.

>>139080867
lol


Comies cant get dumber than this

>>139107137
what is strawman?

From the lack of people trying to rebute my claims made earlier, you chickenshits can't pull anything else out your asses to appeal to emotion. good day. Will be waiting for a response.

>>139107213
> what is a strawman
you dont know?
you have been busily constructing them throughout this thread.

you want to pretend your not a marxist, while espousing all the same tired old tropes and bedraggled rhetoric of marxism while waving a flag that reads "Totally Not A Marxist"

even your meme flag is ridiculously transparent
the templars were ARCH CAPITALISTS you retard.
they created the first system of usury and moneylending in christendom.

being ignorant AND a liar is tragic.
so sad.
many such stories.

>>139107254
marsists, and especially the crypto-marxists wont argue the details of their ideology, because they instinctively know it is bullshit, even when they are too stupid to realize it at a higher level than their amigdala

they are all simpleminded stimulus-response creatures dominated by their feels and the llies told by the birkenstock wearing grey ponytailed hippies who ran their womens' studies programs

they have internalized the self-loathing and hatred for success instilled in their simple brains by the leftist establishment and any attempt to break the conditioning triggers a visceral response.

they have nothing.
they are all silk stockings full of pig shit.

Didn't we have a war for the second half of the 20th century over this and communism blinked. The USSR couldn't even last 100 years fukn cucks

>>139105838
>>Labour is the only source of value.
>As of yet.. but in the future we'll see.
As of ever. This is what value is: socially necessary labour time to produce something.

>>139080867
It's called a wage.

>>139080867

If you want one, you can buy one.

And you can cry when you get shit returns.

>>139101641
Then once I lend somebody something it becomes his? Then why would I let anyone use my stuff? Why should I work together with anyone if I loose ownership by doing so? Say I am a fisherman and I own a boat. I go fishing every morning. My friend wants to fish too. But he doesnt have a boat. We share my boat, and he gives me a fish for it every day. Now I get sick. My friend uses the boat alone. Its now his boat. He takes the boat and leaves. I starve.

>>139105942
>Love how you cherry picked out that the provider is making a profit by making your life better by giving you a product/service at a better price and a better quality.
I'm cherry-picking out anything. Productive forced are undoubtedly way more developed in capitalism than ever before. But that's precisely the point: productive forces are developing too much in regard to the form of the production.

>>139080867
I'll never understand why you guys can figure out why it's fine to pay for a good but not fine to pay for a service

>>139103955
You can't change human nature with an economic system.

>>139080867
Leftpol is delusional. They think America hates Nazis but really they hate commies more. You want to know why? We are a consumerist culture. Marxism will always be the enemy. Pissing in the wind fags.

>>139099056
There’s a difference between personal capital and borrowed capital.

>>139104729
It really depends. A small business owners are the most energetic; they'll start the earliest to open the doors and stay until the very end to close them.

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Commies are beta scum! They contribute nothing to this county and are easily manipulated by the Jewish media.

>>139109143
>There’s a difference between personal capital and borrowed capital.
So?

>>139106879
That Gulag bit is Communism, not Socialism. But Socialism isn't far off from Communism. When enough dumb dependants start demanding free shit, Socialism will devolve into Communism overnight.

What "factory"?
What "assembly line"?
I work in an office. My job consists of making reports, filling in datasheets and mucking around with shitty style-over-substance office-politics for 9 hours a day.

This is the problem with the resurgence of "true leftists" in the wake of Trump & Brexit: Instead of a genuine examination of the world, they either go after piecemeal half-measures of the Social-Democractic brand, dreams of a tech-utopia that are sure to backfire, or just plain old rhetorical throw-backs to goddamn Leninism.
Wake up, idiots. The main problem nowadays is not exploitation, but abjection. The standard tactics of the past (striking, labor unionizing) don't work in the deindustrialized 21st century and never will. Grow up and grow a pair.

>>139080867

I do it foer the lulz

>>139086699
ok, but who's to say who owns what, and wants whats best, for the company, has the best intention in mind, when considering converting a company? a positive thing perhaps? a negative thing perhaps? but to whom does this profit?

>>139109386
>personal - yours; you've earned it; it's your labour in the form of some unit metric of currency.

Lose this? Kiss your dreams goodbye. You'll be out of pocket to every try and run a business again for a decade. That's assuming you have the morale strength to even try again.

>borrowed - not yours; you've borrowed it; it's someone else's labour in the form of some unit metric of currency.

Lose this? Well there's signed small print which the bank will use to try and recuperate as much loss as possible from your personal assets. You're still fucked, but at least not morally. You can file for bankruptcy, but don't expect to be borrowing again any time soon; you're a bad investment. It's only when you can weather a bankruptcy, like Trump, will the banks give a fuck.

>>139109618
>the deindustrialized 21st century
Wake up, idiot. The world does not consist in your little office.

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>>139099197
So true.

>>139103927
And that's why the majority of fuckwits in CFEMU (union) helmets are wizardbearded oldcunts.

Fucking hell. You can make a mint as a tradie even if you don't have the balls to go into business for yourself (majority of tradies intend to do this) if you just save and don't piss your money away on booze, ice, hookers and other stupid shit. Not even investing or counting your super.

Which brings me to my next point, if you're too dumb to manage your business, then what the fuck is the point of you being a joint owner in some faggot co-op? There's nothing in our legal system that really makes co-ops illegal anyway but they never seem to work because they're stupid. I know you faggot commies love to live in Victorian England and have some image of a factory in your head. But if you actually worked on a process line you'd know exactly why letting some of those dickheads run a company is bad idea.

>>139110012
Let me rephrase it:
the deindustrialized 21st century developed world

>>139080867
This fucking shit again?
No.
Capitalism only need some regulations. If you kill the capitalist economy you basically kill the advancement of your country. Look at just the car industry for gods sake. Do you REALLY think modern infrastructure and transportation will be same if Henry Ford not came up with the idea of cheaply produced cars. Fucking no. And anyway what's your alternative to it?The KGST circlejerk what was in the soviet union? Where we traded a few tons of potato for a couple of Trabants a.k.a. landmowers without blades + frame?

>>139109818
>Lose this? Kiss your dreams goodbye. You'll be out of pocket to every try and run a business again for a decade. That's assuming you have the morale strength to even try again.
So basically I become a proletarian.

>Lose this? Well there's signed small print which the bank will use to try and recuperate as much loss as possible from your personal assets. You're still fucked, but at least not morally. You can file for bankruptcy, but don't expect to be borrowing again any time soon; you're a bad investment.
So basically I become a proletarian.

>>139080867
>not purchasing stock in the company that you work for
Actually, I don't, because my company doesn't pay dividends. Smarter to put my money elsewhere.

>>139080867
>Shouldn't you own a piece of the factory?

Alternatively, you could live at the factory. Think of all the greenhouse gas emissions that could be saved? Think of all the extra productivity to be achieved by reclaiming the hours lost to commuting.

>>139110104
>Let me rephrase it:
>the deindustrialized 21st century developed world
Except the "developed world" isn't a world on its own: it is part of a wider world with more industry than ever before. It makes no sense to consider the former only.

>>139110369
It makes a lot of sense because the experiences of third-world sweatshop workers are both alien and completely irrelevant to first-world citizens.

>>139110369
>WE WUZ PROLES

>>139110604
>The conditions in which 90% of what we consume is produced are irrelevant to the discussion about the future of our mode of production.

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>>139080867
if all the workers own the factory who is in charge?

>>139110937
Unfortunately for you, we are not discussing the "the future of our mode of production". When I wrote >>139109618 I explicitly referred to to the language used in >>139080867, which directly addressed the work conditions of the reader. 99% of /pol/'s userbase come from the developed world, therefore it was addressed to the workers of the developed world, to which (as I said in >>139109618) the ideas of 'exploitation' expressed are completely irrelevant.

>>139110937
>Caring about niggers
>Not wanting to "exploit" niggers

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>>139111162

The Central Committee of course. And due to all the hard work the Central Committee does, they're entitled to more luxurious dachas than those factory workers. What? Of course they're not another group of capitalists, don't be reactionary!

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>>139112121
sorry, i suppose i should know my place.

>>139111505
True that.

>>139080867
Sitting behind a desk, or working behind a counter can destroy your body too, Communists need to stop thinking in terms of big-chinned guys with hammers, like those social realism posters. Clinging to imagery of the past is quaint. And if workers wish to puchase shares in the company they work for, capitalism allows them to do so. Many companies already award shares to all employees after a certain length of service. It is up to them how they wish to use or invest the funds at their disposal.

>>139112283
I really doubt any burgerflipper is able to buy (much less earn) any meaningful amount of shares in McDonald's.

>>139111534
>wanting
History isn't about what you want.

>>139099056
>behold as I mindlessly repeat things Marx wrote while having no understanding of how things work in the world at all

THE LABOR THEORY OF VALUE STATES THAT ALL PROFIT GAINED BY THE BOURGEOIS CAPITALIST IS EXPLOITATION OF THE WORKING CLASS PROLETARIAT

BZZZZZZ

BZZZZZZZT

BZZZZZZZZZZ

*EXPLODES*

>>139112576
The choice is there if they so desire, and it is better than not having a choice at all.

>>139112576
To be fair, most "McDonald's" employees are actually employees of franchisees.

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>pour blood, sweat, tears and money creating some business that does whatever the fuck while taking on massive risk ie. the business failing and losing everything I invested
>need to hire my first employee, just some fuck to push a broom to keep my little shop tidy
>"GEE SHOULDN'T I OWN 50% OF YOUR BUSINESS NOW?"

Huh...

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>>139080867
Nigga its 2017 who the fuck works in a factory? You faggots need to upgrade, seriously that 1917 shit doesn't work today man. What even the fuck would constitute the means of production today? My fucking laptop is my means of production and I own it, now what? Am I a kulak that needs to go to a gulag? The beaners that mow my lawn own their weed whackers, you gonna pile them in a ditch? What even is a capitalist in today's world? Where do you draw the line between capitalist and worker now? You realize these ideas you're pimping are like 200 years old now right? At least give that shit a facelift. Oh wait. .

>>139112720
My point is McEmployees don't have the means to afford any significant amount of shares in the company they work for. Having a formalist "choice" is not quite the same as having actual agency.

>>139112651
Start arguing anytime.

>>139112883
Just like marriage.

>>139099197
top kek

>>139105252
Saved

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>>139112920
there is no arguing with ideologues like you, you could be eating shit in a gulag and you would still drone on with your Marxist bullshit. Solzhenitsyn saw this firsthand

it's like you literally have no brains or souls

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>>139112918
They can choose to work for somebody else, or invest in whoever they want. A big bad monocled man with a top hat isn't twirling his moustache whilst cracking a whip to make them stay there.

>>139080867
I do own a piece of that factory. I work in manufacturing, unlike you you Commie piece of shit. Every single one of us that work for my company should be pulling together to see it succeed, because if it doesn't we don't get paid. Those machines work for me just as much as they work for the CEO. I'm a maintenance tech, I put in every day to ensure those machines are running 100% so my company stays competitive and I get appropriately compensated for my services. I have 2 cars, a motorbike and a house, everything a man could want. Now you tell me you fucking pinko fucker how you could do better for me when capitalism is already giving me all I could want as a working class man.

>>139080867
I fix jet aeroplanes for a living
I make a good living to support my family
I enjoy my job
Company perks are good
I can own a piece of my company
It's called buying shares

>>139113110
>there is no arguing
I kinda figured that.

>>139080867
Factory workers are practically inexistent in the West not to mention that the asdembly lines you talk about arr 97% automatic with a couple of supervisors needed per line.
Your ideology is rooted in 19th/20th century tech and socio economic conditions. It's irrelevant nowadays

>>139080867
I do. And draw dividends.

>t. American who doesn't work at McFatass

>>139080867

>Lets forget race and immigration for a few minutes.

No

>You destroy your body working that assembly line

No

>You destroy your body shoveling and carrying

no

>Shouldn't you own a piece of the factory?

No, they are all in shitty countries

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>What even is a capitalist in today's world?
This is a very solid question that Ameircan Affairs tackled recently:
https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2017/08/capitalism-without-capitalists/

tl;dr:
>firm ownership is splintered across hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people who "own" the companies through financial institutions. These financial institutions are the ones who "run" almost all major businesses now. They do it by hiring professional managers while providing very restricting guidelines that focus on short-term profit extraction and market consolidation instead of innovation or long-term business-building. The image of the fat rail baron 'capitalist' who both owns and runs his company is severely outdated. Instead we have a faceless blob of committees and corporate bureaucracies that are not much better than what the Soviet Union had.

>>139112887

>>139112887
I actually work in a factory bro.

You want to go bankrupt when the factory you work for goes under, or do you want to go find another job?

>>139113113
>They can choose to work for somebody else
Yeah, the Burger King across the street. So much better there!

>or invest in whoever they want
With their non-existent capital?

>A big bad monocled man with a top hat isn't twirling his moustache whilst cracking a whip to make them stay there
Read the thread, idiot. I've been criticizing this Marxist-revival fantasy all along.

>>139080867
>Lets forget race and immigration
No.

>>139113590
>>A big bad monocled man with a top hat isn't twirling his moustache whilst cracking a whip to make them stay there
>Read the thread, idiot. I've been criticizing this Marxist-revival fantasy all along.
You should actually read Marx mate.

>>139080867
Only Chinks work in factories. I'm a physiotherapist that does work in people homes. How would your system be of any advantage to me? Would I own a share in all of my customers homes or would I suddenly have to share my car with my mechanic and the petrol station?

>>139080867
>own a piece
that's what the salary is you fucking retard

>>139113763
I've ready plenty of neo-Marxist spiel. They hit the right points at times, but whenever they break out of their shitty Marxist terms or concepts it only detaches their argument from grounded reality and soils their entire point. I'd rather not waste my time reading the pre-industrial source of these silly abstractions.

NEW THREAD

>>139113984

>>139114052
Why, you fucking reddtiard?
Why must everything be a fucking general?
Why do we even NEED a new thread when this one isn't close to page 10 and is not even fucking autosaging?
Jesus Christ this is modern 4chan's worst ill.

>>139105252
Why do they never respond to posts that utterly btfo them?
Could it be that they are dishonest? Nah that cannot be because their system requires 100% honesty from literally everyone to function.

>>139113826
>that's what the salary is you fucking retard
No, a salary is what you are paid for your labor (less than what it is worth)

>>139114200
>Why do they never respond to posts that utterly btfo them?
Its because they are walls of text every time. I'm not going to go through every single point he is trying to make

>>139114252
Surely you can come up with better bait.

Flags were a mistake.

>>139114041
>neo-Marxist
You mean revisionist?

>>139114375
How is it bait? Its true, its how capitalism works

>>139080867
>what are shares in the stock market

>>139080867
>Shouldn't you own a piece of the factory?
Sure, if you buy in. Employees are already compensated with their wages.

>>139114502
Undeserved profit

>>139114445
It's not and you know that it's not.

>>139114582
Explain how not? If you are paid what your labor is worth, where does the profit come from?

>>139113590
But they can invest in their own education as well, so they may move upwards. I see possibility, and a way out for these people, but you just seem to want to want to piss all over everything and moan about life being unfair.

>>139114559
You know what happens to companies that constantly break even or run at a loss, right?

>>139114712
Regardless if stockholders make money or lose it, they are still doing no actual work.

>>139114794
Most companies are not publically traded.
So I ask again: You know what happens to companies that constantly break even or run at a loss, right?

>>139114945
>Most companies are not publically traded.
We are talking about the stock market

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>>139080867
If you actually had a job, then you would understand how fucking stupid that concept is.

Say I start a business because I'm good at economics and selling products, however I do not have to capacity to build my products alone, so I hire workers. The workers are great at building things, but have no clue how to run a successful business or sell products and make a profit. Once I hire them, they now own my factory and thus my business. They can build things but not sell them, and so the entire scheme fails, everybody starves to death. Do you understand?

>>139114325
kek.
That doesn't surprise me.
You might consider reading it though if your brain can handle a task that requires slightly above nigger-tier attention span. It might just punch through that flawed thought loop you people seem to use instead of sound logic.

You don't have to respond either.

>>139114200
Because the post was 50% nonsense. The idea that an ancap society isnt going to devolve into a quasi feudal society with lords replaced with managers and CEOS as kings.

>>139114660
From the value added to the product of your labor.

Couterpoint: if the capitalist is robbing you by valuing the product as you claim (i.e. the "true" value of the workers labor minus the capitalists profit), then how is it that the product has any value at all? You seem to think that there should be no reward for the man who owned the risk by building the factory and investing in the buisness. If that man is really a charlatan who was superfluous to the endeavour; why do i buy from him instead of getting together and making my own products with my comrades?

You know the answer.

>>139115053
Point out the nonsense. Also argue the post not the flag.

>>139115101
>why do i buy from him instead of getting together and making my own products with my comrades?
You can to some extent. Worker cooperatives exist. Though they are still within a capitalist system with all its inherent problems.

>>139101407
>they want communism
>almost all of them are fat

kek