Let's have a civil debate about religion and it's role

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Fuck off kike

>>138868636
It unites people.

civilisation

Their will always be a "religion". Wether that will be ethnic unity or scientific fanatisism

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>>138868714
Fuck off leaf

>>138868636
Gives People a community
If you have got a reason to act like a good person
Objective Morals, and a rational reason to oblige to them
Traditional Values
Strong Families

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>>138869169

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>>138868893
>It unites people.
it divides people

>>civilisation
source

>>138869169
>Gives People a community
fine

>>If you have got a reason to act like a good person
Objective Morals, and a rational reason to oblige to them
the nigger argument, sorry this only applies to sub human and sub IQ individuals, everyone else doesn't need a manual to not rape everything that moves like an animal

>>138869546
yeah, rape and kill are the harsh ones, but there is really no reason for me not to steal peoples shit.
If you could steal a million dollars, with the guarantee of you not being caught, and no other reprocussions, the atheist would take the money, and the devoted christian would not.
Acting against your own self interest is not rational, its borderline altruistic, but christians practice it.

>>138871254
NO I wouldn't steal it.
Because I can imagine how I wold feel if someone stole it from me.

I'm telling you, you just need a high IQ not to need a bible.

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>>138872701
i dont understand that?
Yes you dont want to be stolen from, and you know what the person that gets stolen from feels, BUT that does not matter to me.
Why would i put somebody elses well being above mine?
I get the whole "dont do upon other as you want upon you" shit, same with molememes universally preferable behavior, but there is no reason for me to behave ethicaly.

If it were given that if i rape a person, and dont get caught the chance of my mother getting raped would rise form probably 0. something to 50% i would not do it. But thats not the case.

Dont get me wrong, i dont believe in god, thats why i dont see a reason to act morally.

>>138872701
what isthe cut off point?
online tests say im 165 but im prolly way lower lol

>>138868636
I now could drop a ton of arguments to this for pro-religious opinions, after thinking for 20 minutes. I would then make 5 Posts with insulting and hilarious images,good grammar and spelling and well-Chosen Videos, but I simply refuse to spend my powers on that project, if I was to debate about this, then on TV with an actual audience, this is not even a new or interesting topic for me and I am not pleased by hacking my way through the endless jungle of close-quarters combat with trolls, no thanks.

You can think of yourself what arguments that could be, perhaps I'll watch and answer.

>>138873691
>what is the cut off point?
probably not needing a bible would be one

>>138874058
pls respond :(

Most people need the belief in something larger than oneself. It gives a kind of point to your life.

If someone with a bit of intelligence starts analyzing religion he will soon recognize that it is contradictional and illogical. However, the majority is not smart enough to see the contradictions and therefore, religion is good for them.

I am not religious anymore, but sometimes I wish I'd still be naiv enough to believe in religion because I have nothing to replace it with.

Even an atheist should recognize the cultural heritage of the religion of his people. It becomes more and more obvious, that the decline of western civilisation is strongly connected with the decline of christianity in these countries. It is also an open secret, that the attacks on christianity have been spearheaded by diaspora jews who live in these countries.

>>138871254
The Christian would steal it, donate a tenth to the church and pray for forgiveness.

>wanting a rational discussion
>about religion
>on an imageboard made of edgy teens
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. - Ezekiel 23:20

>>138875256
Maby, but you get the point
If you believe in some god, that clearely states stealing is wrong and will land you in hell, you would not steal, and it would be completely in your self interest not to steal.

God isn't real and if you need Religion for simple morals, you should have other things to worry about.

>>138875822
ok so pls respond to
>>138869169
>>138871254
>>138873152

>>138868636
Besides it is
https://youtu.be/3_2T47PAIkM

>>138872701

>I'm telling you, you just need a high IQ not to need a bible.

This may be valid if you are still young but what if your are getting older? If you are beyond the peak, if old friends are passing away, if you're getting weaker and more forgettable every year instead of stronger and smarter, your intelligence, the same intelligence that told you earlier that religion makes no sense, will start to make you question why are you not killing yourself? What are you waiting for? When your life is comfortable and lucky, it is easy not to believe in religion but what if your life becomes more and more miserable? What on earth will keep you going?

>>138875638
>god is the only reason I'm not an asshole
>therefore all atheists only care about themselves

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>>138875256
>pray for forgiveness
Catholics aren't Christian

>>138876530
He said he doesn't believe in God you retard

>>138876530
not what i said, i am arguing that i, because i am an atheist, do not behave in a moral way, and that there is no rational reason to do so.
Dont get me wrong not punching every person you see is entirely in your self interest, but stealing without being caught is too.

>>138871254
>there is really no reason for me not to steal peoples shit.
Revenge. You steal from someone and they kill you to make an example of you. This of course ignores the rule of law in which case you steal from someone and go to jail.
Every time I hear Christians talk of morality they sound like absolute sociopaths only held in check by the threat of eternal torture.

Just follow the golden rule, a four year old understands morality better than most Christian apologists.

>>138876732
>no true Scotsman
I guess the islamic state is not islam then.
>>138877004
Not everyone needs a rational reason to not be an asshole, it's called empathy. There's more and more edgy autists (or sociopaths as some call then) these days because society is more individualistic. It's a symptom of a bigger problem, not human nature.

>>138877358
i am not a christian as stated before, my parents tell me that i dont have empathy, but i know how other people feel, i know what hurts them, and I can understand their situation, I just dont care.

To the stealing: The point is if you could steal without being caught or any other reprocussions, you would still say its wrong, but thats completely against your self interest.

>>138877848
besides they aren't

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>>138877848
how so? why do i not need a reason to behave against my own interest?

Also pls give me your defenition on Empathy, and also maby read>>138877940

>>138868636
https://youtu.be/pLj4iwa0__8

>>138868636
There is something to the way of thinking and the necessities of a healthy community because people all over the world have come up with similar stories. Good book I'd recommend is "Maps of meaning" by Jordan Peterson.

>>138877940
>To the stealing: The point is if you could steal without being caught or any other reprocussions, you would still say its wrong, but thats completely against your self interest.
Too bad your odds of getting caught are much higher than your odds of not getting caught. Also criminals tend to have low IQs and are dumber than they think they actually are.

>>138878161
An example of empathy is feeling bad when you harm someone, by stealing from them for instance. It's not rational but everyone without autism experiences it and it's a good reason to not steal.
I read your other post and cringed. Please don't bring your self-diagnosed sociopathy larping to /pol/, it's one of the reasons I left /b/.

>>138878628
you evade the point, so stealing is not wrong?
Or do morals not exist?
My point is that religion provides the objective reason not to behave unethically. The law will not catch 100% of criminals, but if you believe that god judges you than the chance of getting caught are 100%.

>>138878745
But why should i feel bad? I really dont have autism, and i dont know what you mean by "self-diagnosed sociopath", like i said, im not a sociopath.

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>>138874425
>>138873152
>>Why would i put somebody elses well being above mine?
I get the whole "dont do upon other as you want upon you" shit, same with molememes universally preferable behavior, but there is no reason for me to behave ethically.

Ok so ethics are taught as a core part of some degrees - namely political science, philosophy, law and so forth..
You can either study ethics on youtube or some other online source, but main point is - research it.

If you want a tl;dr: ethics are a part of your brain which forms with higher intelligence.
A monkey doesn't have ethics, but you (might) have.

>>138876413
pick up The Art of Dying by Osho.
will change your mind

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>>138879292
look, i know what ethical concepts are, the point is not that i can justify what i am doing in ethical theories, the point is that i dont have a reason to adhere to those system, i am completely aware of the harm caused by me stealing shit etc. I just dont care.

The point i am making is that religion provides both an ethical code, and a rational reason to behave accordingly.

>>138879229
>you evade the point, so stealing is not wrong?
It is wrong because it hurts people and even if you don't care that it hurts people the results of your actions are more likely to hurt you. Right and wrong exist for the benefit of society, society opposes stealing because it disincentives production, society opposes murder because it removes productive members of society and often leaves children without parents. It doesn't matter what society says is right or wrong as long as they generally agree on what is right and wrong and can have courts to sentence and punish wrongdoers.

Beyond that breaking the commonly accepted moral code leads to being ostracized. Cheat on your girlfriend or wife? Women are less likely to date or marry you since they don't trust you. Steal from people? People are less likely to be around you since they don't trust you. Be a general asshat, have fun having no friends. The means don't matter the end result is the same whether you feel bad about stealing or you don't steal to avoid prison and being ostracized.

>My point is that religion provides the objective reason not to behave unethically
Unless you don't believe in it. Even before the development of modern Atheism people committed atrocities all the time even when they specifically went against the preaching of religions. Can you give any proof that religion actually keeps people in line? Statistics in the US show that the prison population is more religious than the population at large meaning if nothing else in the US signs point to the fact that if anything religion promotes criminality.

>>138879727
religion is merely a school of thought, which can equally be passed onto you by your parents.
agree?

Perpetual forgiveness alleviates recursive self doubt and self loathing accrued by mistakes, intentional or otherwise, while allowing for distanced self reflection.

But, you can't expect a Jew to empathize with the basis of morality.

>>138868636
Read Pride and Prejudice
Without religion there is no argument for me to not kill someone when it will benefit me and my family.

>>138880584
Yes there is, it is call criminal punishments. If you are an atheist and think humans only live once for about 70 years being executed or getting life in prison is pretty much the same as going to hell, you spend your short existence locked in a cell or you have your short life extinguished prematurely.

>>138880246
sure
>>138880216
ok, yeah i agree stealing is bad, and getting caught stealing is against you own interest, but how does that disporve anything i said.
>>138880933
Only if you get caught, thats the point of religion in my opinion, you cant base your reason for adheirance to ethical codes around "maby you get caught"

>>138868636
ShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekelShekel

>>138868636
Here's my theory.

>ancients figure out (probably through natural selection) the moral code that works for their civilization
>they write it down so the civilization can survive as long as possible
>realize that some people will just decide "well i don't subscribe to that shit" and make life suck for everyone
>to avoid that they include an extra rule that says "magical sky daddy will make you burn forever if you don't do these things"

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>>138881532
id say its a thread boys

>>138881532
>>138881705
Sounds Good

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thanks for everyone who participated

>>138868636
Religion is the collection of dogmatic teachings to increase the quality and cohesion of life to a community, this may include rites of socialisation and a common lore of stories upon which prove fertile ground for forms of art and abstract thinking, but more importantly it provides norms that form the first line in shaping people to behave for the better of society before laws themselves.

Before the instruction of the masses, religion provided a mean for leaders to direct a people that wouldn't have the means to discuss, reason and conclude on what's the best to do
Before the existence of practically available scientific writings, the knowledge that would direct a people to act for its best was recognised through years of experience and included into the religious stories or the attached folklore
Before written and enforced laws, religion provided the indoctrination for a community to regulate themselves.

But a mind without religious teachings also wander until it buils its own or adopt the closest.
In modern times we could go without religion since we may all have instruction, loads of scientific studies, laws and enough already built culture, artistic and philosophical.
But people are also not instructed properly, don't research the studies available, want to change the laws and destroy the culture they have because they either adopted a bad religion or a heavily distorted version of a good religion.

As an atheist, but uplifted as a Christian, I recognise that people DO need their fables, because they have a great importance in the development of the individual and the group as a whole.
it just needs to be updated to not go against facts without reasons.

>>138881843
your threads are an embarrassment

Sins and virtues came from our feelings before written religion. Although it's slightly nihilistic; I do believe humans have a sense of morality AND aggression without being taught. This has also been studied in rats.

On the other hand, religion is important because science teaches chance, not faith and a higher sense of being. It gives human beings a difference in opinions, art and culture.

Each person is going to have a different opinion on what a god or spirituality actually means to them. Even a nihilist will say their own intelligence is their "higher power".

>>138881933
yes it has been said already >>138881532

good stuff

How's he weather is Tel-Aviv, Schlomo? Is it scorching hot like the ovens your parasitic ancestors were roasted during the great HOLOHOAX?

>>138880933
>hasn't read pride and prejudice

>>138881177
>ok, yeah i agree stealing is bad, and getting caught stealing is against you own interest, but how does that disporve anything i said.
Because if you read the second part I mentioned that religion does nothing to actually prevent people from committing crimes as illustrated by the number of historical figures long before the advent of modern atheism who had no qualms about breaking their religion's major tenants. Beyond that incarceration rates in the US are higher for religious people than non-religious people illustrating that if anything religion promotes crime, probably because Christianity is obsessed with forgiveness and redemption so people consider it okay to kill or steal since only god can judge them and he will forgive them if they ask for it.

>Only if you get caught, thats the point of religion in my opinion, you cant base your reason for adheirance to ethical codes around "maby you get caught"
If you focus on pure logic than it goes from "maybe get caught" to "probably get caught" in reality.

However once again can you give me proof of the importance of religion in defining morality? Research seems to indicate that religion doesn't actually make people behave more morally.

>>138882201
>He hasn't read [insert book here]
No, I haven't read every book in human history, pray tell, what point does pride and prejudice make?

>>138882352
Read the book to find out. It's a classic

>>138882254
oh i agree, its not working in practice, because niggers and spics are dumb retards, but you have to agree, its pretty irrational to commite crimes if you seriousely believe that it will lead to endless suffering in hell.

I was talking about the possible positive effects of a rational society that believes in God.

>>138868636
Our entire judicial system is based on it's moral system, checkmate faggotheists

It's beneficial because it stop us from killing each other and give us morales.
It it wasn't for religion we would still love in caves. Religion helped a lot civilisations to develop mainly the Hellenic and roman and Christian Europe.
Look at the world now. The percentage of atheism has increased a lot compared to 100 years ago.
Do you think society is better now?
Btw tell your friends to spare me and my family when Israel takes over the world. I'll promise I'll be a good goy.

>>138868636
I'm bumping you cause you're family....
I have no interest in this Toiv'e thread of yours

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religion has made basic morals like don't kill each other, but has also made some retarded ones. like prey to something that nobody has ever heard or seen.

>>138889792
Praying can be a very positive thing, because it leads you to fucus on your goals in life, you spend 10 minutes thinking about your goals and desires in life.
That might help you to achive those things, at worst its a waste of time.

If there's a God, it sure isn't the kike God that Jews, Mudslimes and Christcucks believe in.

>>138887679
Kikes always ride each others cocks

Training wheels for retarded

>>138889792
You don't need religion to tell you to not kill people... if you want a society that flourishes, which benefits all of those in the society, then it becomes patently obvious that killing one another needs to be forbidden, the ancient Greeks knew this, and punished murderers with exile, and Romans included murder in Public Law which predates Christianity.

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>>138868636
>saying not to bring up flag
(you)

>>138868636
Religion was created to answer the eternal question of death: What is death? What happens to us when we die? What does it mean to die?

Religion gives some people peace of mind because they can just say "when I die I go to heaven" contrary to spending their life terrified of death.

Religion is good for those who get hung up on death but it has also impeded the advancement in sciences when religion also became power.

A future with religion treated as like a sort of therapy would be a successful future in my book.

>>138892796
Kike dick American posting pictures of Goebbels. don't kid yourself slave, you'd have been tossed into the gas chamber no questions asked.

>>138892557
The Point is that a rational person believing in Religion will not murder etc, because it is against your self interest.
An atheist does not act against his self interest if he murders, and does not get caught.

>>138891961
>always
Only when we don't have you to suck them

also
Solidarity and homosexuality are not the same Goy

>>138892955
A rational person that wants society to flourish will not murder either, and it doesn't take objective morality for that to happen is the point. Judging by the simple fact that most murderers in human history have believed in some form of God (simple statistics) then your argument is already insanely weak. This all presupposes that free-will even exists, which I don't believe, but you said it yourself, you don't need the constraint of religion if you have the threat of jail. An atheist understands they only have ONE life to live, many theists believe they will simply be forgiven... tldr your argument isn't logical and is extremely flawed.

Religion is an amalgamation of philosophy and a recognition of the unconscious cognitive biases that guide our lives.

Whatever improvement you make upon this mechanism is religion.

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>>138868636
Religion/faith can help form coping mechanisms in those that do not trust therapists/don't have inssurance/etc. It can provide hope to those without a reason for hope and provides an early exposure to studying a text as a child which promotes valuing education and reading.

Maintained a code of ethics taught to most, can you think of any other way to help convince people back then to behave? You have the privilege of an education so you don't need religion. It can also help maintain the quality and direction cultures grew towards. You can see the potential for this is inhuman minority regions of the world like the middle east, it creates, maintains and protects a culture. Mudslimism is of course a bastardization of christianity for the benefit of a powerful violent pedophile, muhamed or whatever its pigname is knew the power of religion and decided to use it against the current culture. Isreal also knows this, thats why they maintain their nation as a religious state and understand the threat a muslim community can create(hense the evacuation of jews from europe currently).

If christianity was the dominant culture(not everyone being christians but everyone holding christian values) we wouldn't be having a culture war problem right now. If people understood what religion does europeans would be horrified at the idea of muslims becoming any kind of majority anywhere near them. Culture is an incredibly powerful thing, culture wars used to be fought using religion, now we use memes and stereotypes.


The future is fine without or with religion as its not needed anymore. It LITERALLY doesn't matter if the texts are true or not and caring about it is missing the point of religion and is why athiests will always be cringey hat tippers in the eyes of many. It shows a grave lack of understanding of the role of religion, its purposes and its positive impacts.

>>138879397
shits on bible.
Read this book Goy

>>138893403
Puting societies well being above your own is not rational, the thread of jail is not omnipresent, like i said, its only against your self interest if you get caught.
The people believing in Religion that will punish murder, yet still murder are not rational.

>many theists believe they will simply be forgiven.
so not rational? because murder cant be forgiven?
>free-will
Depends what you mean, i dont think people are genetaclly predisposed to crime etc.

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>>138868636
>There are people out there that are arrogant enough to think that the religion in their birth place and in their household is the "True Religion" ignoring that statistically they're more likely to have been born into the wrong religion

You sure like your statistics when they suit your retarded claims. And here's another little redpill if there were a true religion it would make sense that it was also the oldest one.
Hint: It's not the Abrahamic religion that /pol/ likes.

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>>138873691
>online tests
>valid

>>138869169
Morals are taught by society. There's no need of religion when you have strong society.

Assuming Religion gives morals implies that values are relative, i.e they could change if person changes religion or becomes irreligious.

But what I believe , is that a spirited person won't change his values. It would mean weakness if he did. Hence values are absolute.

People choose religions according to their values, not vice-versa.

A strong society has strong values, no need of religion.

>>138899772
Values can be given both by society and religion, sure.
But you have no rational reason to always obay those laws without religion.

>>138900259
That's why I talked about spirited person.

You may won't do a thing which strongly opposes you, which simply makes you feel that you won't be you if you do. Cause it is against your dignity.

OR

You may do a thing and think god will forgive you.

Atheists (good atheists) are the strongest ones, cause they don't need to fear a hell to do the right thing.

It's simple in their nature.

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>>138899772
I know of no society great or small that didn't have a 'religon' of sorts.

In fact the greater the society the more complexity religion has. It could be argued that religions are inevitable in societies because the more time passes the greater the ODs of one arising. I'm sure that moral beliefs predate the religion but they get incorporated into the religion.

Right now in our current state we have an issue with religions that used to explain things with our information based societies. We haven't figured out what "religion" will look like in the future.

>>138868714
Fpbp

I remember when /pol/ used to tell kikes at every instance

Now these schlomo fags are starting their own threads

Jews are the fags of /pol/

>>138901739
>Religion of sorts
What you mean by that?
Are you trying to call a commonly accepted values in certain society "a 'religion' of sorts"?

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>>138902433
Worship/Belief system. I'd agree with you that the values, at least in their rudimentary form, more than likely existed before the 'religion' but as the society and religion evolved and matured so did the values. Because they became interwoven I don't know if the values we have now would exist as they exist without religion.

And I know of no major society that exists right now without a belief system which we can use to compare their values to those with religions.

I hope I'm being clear but I'm rather distracted and not sure if my point is being expressed correctly.

>>138868714
fuck off leaf

>>138901655
Anyone who does the right thing because they fear hell is a dirty kike.

I do the right thing because I love Jesus and it's my duty to emulate his life.

>>138903848
Bully!