Was Vatican II a mistake? And if so, is there a chance to go

Yes, if you reject it, become a sede
Francis is a heretic

>>138819085
yes

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>>138819085
Modernism/liberal Catholicism as a heresy was a mistake and letting it spread like wildfire in seminaries like wildfire in the early 20th century was a mistake. I definitely think that some of the documents of vatican II must be revised to fit the traditional teachings of the faith, notably around the areas of ecumenism and ecclesiology. There are some things which I like about the documents like encouraging eastern Catholics to recover their ancient liturgical traditions and not be Latinized. But vatican ii or not Catholics should follow the dogmatic teachings of the church.

what's the difference in the latin mass and the mass you practice now?
is there a name for the mass you do currently?

>>138819085
i think about this a lot. However I don't think Catholicism will die. The reason why I believe this is because it is the religion with the deepest philosophical, cultural and artistic traditions.
The difficulties the church faces are not new: idiotic clergy, scheming jews, heretics, apathy. We've seen them all before numerous times throughout history, but the Church has endured.
I firmly believe we'll see a resurgence of the Church within the next 20 years.

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>>138820396
Novus ordo which was promulgated in 1970. Which is shorter than the Tridentine mass.
Since the 1960s priests and bishops started promoting celebration of mass facing towards the people and giving out holy communion in the hand without direct orders from Rome. And little by little started introducing other ugly liturgical errors like girl altar boys, using cheap looking dollar store vestments, dancing, regular people giving out holy communion, guitar music. Essentially protestantizing the liturgy.

I once chipped my tooth on the bread host.

Was god telling me something (other than to see a dentist)?

>>138821151
and i guarantee you that novus ordo has absolutely nothing to do with the "novus ordo seclorum" found on our money

>>138819085
I'm going to assume that you're Roman Catholic. If you are, are you calling Christ a liar when He said that the gates of Hell will never prevail against His Church?

The Catholic Church is run by literal pedophile communists.
You can believe the theology of the church all you want, but the institution is irreparably corrupted.

>>138821935

this is just temporary, we've had antipopes before

>>138822132
this is jesuits especially

>>138822249
What's wrong with jesuits?

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>>138819085

>Vatican II was a mistake
>Vatican I was a mistake
>The Council of Trent was a mistake
>The Gregorian Reforms were a mistake
>The Filioque was a mistake

>>138823264

they are very liberal and into social justice and refugees nowadays

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>>138821935

The Roman Catholic Church is not the Church Christ founded. That is the Orthodox Church.

The gates of hell have prevailed against the Vatican because the Vatican is a fake church.

http://nypost.com/2017/07/05/vatican-cops-bust-drug-fueled-gay-orgy-at-cardinals-apartment/

>>138823403
Jesuits post Vatican ii

>>138823690
If I could make one change to the church it would be to allow priests to marry.

>>138823400
>one bad council disproves the others
Vatican ii is and will always be the black sheep.

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>>138823926

That will help avoid future child abuse and domination of the church by a gay mafia, but then you still have the doctrinal straight jacket of Vatican I's Papal Infallibility teaching, which binds Catholics to obey the Pope, even though it is the Popes themselves who are driving the church off the cliff.

The fact that authority is decentralised in the Orthodox Church has protected her from phoney councils promulgating heresy and confusion.

>>138823690
Didn't the "orthodox" bow to the ottomans and communist?

>>138819181
The Roman Catholic, without a Bishop of Rome, from the 1960's and onward into the future until the end of the world. Where's that bit contained in traditional Catholic theology?

>>138823690
Didn't Constantinople fall to the ottomans? When was Catholic Rome sacked by the enemies of Christ?

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>>138824219

The Orthodox Church suffered persecution by Turks and Communists, but the Church survived the persecution.

You Catholics on /pol/ cannot stop harping on about how the Orthodox Church was conquered by the Turks.

She wasn't conquered because the Muslims didn't force her to change the dogmas of the church.

This triumphalism about the crusades is the only thing you have to hold onto because you have an effeminate, liberal heretical fake church that has been occupied by the forces of satan.

>>138822249
Lol, temporary? No Pope 55+ years, and onward forever? Vat. II and all that has followed will not scrapped by the Church of Rome. It cannot be. The conditions were there for it to be infallible.

Newsflash, the roman catholic church is the seven headed beast with ten horns.

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And you really have to wonder at the stupidity of Catholics who believe that Fatima is real and the Russians must convert to Catholicism or else all hell will break loose. What they have in Russia is so much more consonant with the traditions of the Apostles than anything you will ever find in the Catholic Church.

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>>138824726

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>>138819085
>I get a nagging feeling that the Church is a hallowed out shell version of Catholicism
That's because it is. You can't buy your way to heaven and you can't do thing that you know are wrong and expect to be forgiven for all of it. I'm a pagan but I support protestant Christians. I believe that we all worship the same supreme force. I do not however support the Catholic church because it's corrupt beyond belief and is in my opinion a slap in the face to the Allvater.

Matthew 5:5: Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the Earth.

This is mistranslated from ancient Greek. What meek means in this context is those who are capable of raising their sword but choose not to. This is not the same as cowardice, as the coward will never raise his sword no matter what. The meek will exercise self restraint but will not hold back when they are cornered. Whites are the meek. The Catholic church preaches cowardice.

>>138825147

The word ''meek" is not a good translation from the Greek because it implies someone who is defenceless.

>>138825355
Exactly. And it's incorrect.

>>138821889
>>138821912
What the FUCK is this shit?

Are they literally bragging about being Satanists now?

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I'm very grateful that I went through a Radtrad Catholic phase before discovering Orthodoxy, because there are many contradictions in modern Catholicism which you would not be aware of if you do not familiarise yourself with the sedevacantist and sspx literature. For example, Benedict XVI and JPII are held up as conservative heroes of the church by novus ordo catholics and certain traditionalists, but they did all kinds of crazy stuff to pander to the media about how liberal and ecumenical they were.

The Novus Ordo Wire is a good website for this information, as well as the Sedevacantist group led by Fr Cekada and Bishop Sandborn.

>>138819181
What are you doing in Canada Mel?

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What angers me, is the complete apathetical response, from people who have lost their sense of value to the abyss of nihilism.

I had the experience scenario in which I was put into a position doubt about my belief of god because of college philosophy.

However, I never really considered the non existence of god for a reason,

How do you disprove the infinite with the finite?

Vactican II has the pastor or priest turning away from Christ when he is preaching to the congregation, I have a problem with this, I told my grandmother exactly why I distrust the current pope, and the current state of the doctrine, I told her that i'd rather be a classical catholic simply because its closer to its original translation in customs, and bare the responsibility that although much has changed with council. I believe that Vatican II is pure heresy.

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The problem with Catholics is that they cling to the sense of stability that comes with having all these parishes on every street corner they can go to for the sacraments and this romantic vision of a European civilisation united under one ecclesiatical imperium.

But you have to sacrifice this for the truth. Go out of your comfort zone and go talk to an Orthodox priest. Trust me, Orthodoxy is so much better than Catholicism in doctrine and worship.

Once you make this conversion you will laugh at how much bullshit and heresy you were willing to tolerate as a Catholic.

>>138823690
Coming from a church which changed its teachings to support divorce up to 4 times and contraception. Some of your bishops are more modernistic than our.

>>138826095
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlXC8E1Hb8

Yes, Vatican II was a horrible mistake.

So was sodomizing the alter boys.

If there's a God, the Roman Catholic church has been damned 100's, maybe thousands of years.

>>138823264
read this and you'll understand everything. not joking.
goodreads.com/book/show/664440.The_Jesuits

Muslims conquered most of the lands where the Eastern Orthodox Church was once the majority : Turkey, Egypt and Syria. If Eastern Orthodoxy was true, then why would God allow so many of their lands to be conquered by Muslims?

>>138821151
>girl altar boys

kek

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>>138826344

In the United States alone, the Catholic Church divorces over 60,000 married couples every year. They just call it 'annulment' instead because they like to use Jewy lawyer's arguments to maintain the facade of rigorism while bending every single rule and canon into a pretzel.

The facade of rigorism also created a situation where seminaries are filled with sexually active faggots because we can't have married priests, even though the apostles themselves took wives.

>>138819085
>hallowed out
lol

>>138824797
But Fatima IS real. Even if what you say about Russian mass is true, Russia is still tainted by communism, and the errors of its ways are spreading to the western hemisphere, as we are clearly seeing right now with Canada, Venezuela, most of Western Europe.

Likewise, the church has indeed entered a period of confusion starting with Vatican II, with Novus Ordo and its errors being forced on all churches right after Vatican II (and only allowing traditional masses much later), the scandals in the church destroying its reputation among the world, particularly in America, and with traditional masses still having very little attendance compared to Novus Ordo.

Finally, according to eyewitnesses, the third prophecy states that "the Pope would betray the flock and turn his sheep over to the slaughter devised by Lucifer himself". I don't know if St. Francis is the one (maybe, maybe not), but he is doing things that clearly fly in the face of the teachings of the church, particularly mingling with other religions.

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>>138826691

This is a fake litmus test. Christians in Ottoman occupied lands were permitted to still practice the faith. The Ottoman occupation did not force the Orthodox to change the immutable teachings of Christianity.

And your argument is not even consistent because the Papal Estates were totally conquered by Italian nationalists in the 19th century. The Pope did not receive his own sovereign territory again until much later when Benito Mussolini created the Vatican.

>>138827034
I'm open to hear you. What made you orthodox?

>>138826922

Please, the Fatima revelations alleged to have been given by Sister Lucille have not even been consistent over time. And I have heard an account where Sister Lucille confided in a priest that the 'conversion' meant Russia's conversion from Communism, not from Orthodoxy.

This is the problem with the Catholic Church even before Vatican II, you have all these silly hallucinating women in convents being put on a pedestal because the Church is so desperate for vitality and spirituality.

>>138826922
Come on man. Just, come on. You're smarter than this. Sister Lucy herself said Fatima was complete. Fatima is over, or was never anything to begin with.

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>>138827236

Every Traditionalist theory of modern Catholicism is inconsistent. The only way to understand what has happened to the Catholic Church is to understand that the papacy is a heresy invented for political gain. Go reexamine the arguments being put out there in Catholic apologetics for papal supremacy and infallibility. They are all incredibly weak arguments that don't match the gospels or the early church fathers.

Catholics stay in lala land because they don't study the Greek fathers. They don't read anything older than St Thomas Aquinas.

Check out the account of one Spanish Catholic monk's journey to Orthodoxy, "My Exodus from Roman Catholicism":

http://oodegr.com/english/biblia/Ballester/perieh.htm

>>138825604
Things will start moving once Benedict, God bless him, kicks the bucket. Right now the NWO plans are on hold because if they push anything with Francis, Benedict can take action to stop him because he's still Pope.

>>138827848
>Benedict can take action to stop him because he's still Pope.
He isn't, though. He quit.

>>138827973
He stepped down, as Emeritus he can still take actions.

>>138819085

Catholicism is a hallowed out shell version of Christianity.

>>138828077
What actions can he take?

>>138827814
I found a church not far from me but their website is in all Russian. What am I to do?

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>>138828356

Depending on where you are it may be better to go to the Greek Orthodox church. What you should do is send an email to the archdiocese so that they can point you to a good priest. In your email clearly state your reason for converting.

>>138825826
>I told my grandmother
What did grandma have to say anon?

It is better to join with the Orthodox jurisdiction that has the largest presence in your area because they will be the most accommodating to converts.

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>>138826095
but their mass it too long

>tfw saturday night mass is over in 40 mins or less

>>138829124

And in the Russian Orthodox Church you don't even get to sit down!

>>138828817
My local Greek Orthodox Church is a bourgeois social club, involved in ecumenism, and complete with pews and piano. It's worse than nearby Catholic churches. And what about the calendar issue with the Greeks? Orthodoxy is infected as well, just not in terms of doctrine like the Catholic Church, yet. The only Christians I have any faith in anymore are the men of Mt. Athos.

>>138829179
When did the other Orthodox churches change that? If I remember right, it was recently, which isn't very orthodox.

>>138824563
This isn't even the longest antipapcy in history: we're still about a decade short of the length of the Avignon Papacy.

>>138819085
yes, it was a mistake. mass needs to be held in latin. also nu-pope sucks.

>>138829242
Mt.Athos?

>>138827663
> Sister Lucy herself said Fatima was complete.
Can you show where, and when she said that?

I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters

>>138823400
>The Filioque was a mistake

You know Orthodox believe in what the Filioque says, right? They just choose not to say it in their creed. The only reason it became a big thing was because it was seen as the Pope flexing his dick at the Eastern church.

>>138829429
That was an era of confusion, not defection. There was a still a functioning Catholic church in Rome and across Christendom. The virtual entirety of the Catholic world (Pope, Cardinals, and Bishops included) hadn't embraced a new religion contradicting the old, hadn't made a lie of claims to infallibility and divine aid and such.
And besides, you know this is going to last forever.

>>138824797
What they have is a estatal church ruled by the government.

>>138819085
The more centralized a organization becomes the more corrupt it becomes.

You do NOT have to accept Vatican II. By their own words Pope John XXIII and Paul VI said that Vatican II was merely a "pastoral" and not a dogmatic council.

Catholic dogma is infallible; pastoral teaching is not. Moreover, the post Vatican II Church abandoned the law of lex orandi, lex credendi. The pastoral practice has deviated more and more from what the dogma teaches: communion in the hand and now communion for the divorced and remarried.

Of course it would be a sin to purposefully give communion to the divorced and remarried. It is sinful because it contradicts the infallible dogma of the Church. In much the same way, the faithful should not have to follow any pastoral practice that offends dogma.

The documents of Vatican II should be thrown unto a pile and burned.

>>138826691
Atheists conquered most of the lands where the Catholic Church was once the majority: All of Western Europe. If Catholicism was true, then why would God allow so many of their lands be occupied by atheists?

>>138829242

I've never seen a Greek Orthodox parish with a piano. That does not sound like the rule but the exception.

>>138820396
Mass of Pope Paul VI
Pauline Mass
Ordinary Form
Novus Ordus Missae

>>138829748

No, that's completely false.

>>138819085
Vatican II was religion trying to catch up to what was then the modern mindset, which is now completely ancient.
Literally "how do you do, fellow hip people".

In the past, religion dictated the collective mindset.

>>138819085
Hermeneutic of continuity. There is literally nothing wrong with any of the Vatican II documents when they're correctly interpreted. Vatican II led to a lot of myths about what it is because the ultra-liberals went solo and pretended Vatican II blessed all their ultra-liberal ideas which it never did.

>>138831609
Have fun being defeated by a centuries-old heresy then, I guess.

>>138831879

Have fun being lied to about the Holy Spirit, heretic.

>>138832268
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEGo41443iI

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>>138831299
Wrong. Protestant countries abandoned their faith the most. France is the esception, since they've always been at the spearhead of secularism and modernity. Even so, they also lead the traditionalist in the Church.
All the Scandinavian countries, Britain, the Dutch, once the proponents of Protestantism, are now almost entirely devoid of Christian faith, what's left of their churches racing to destroy themselves, as you probably seen in /pol/ screencaps.
Even in Germany, atheist are far more common in the former DDR, which used to pe Protestant. Prussia doesn't even exist anymore.

>>138819085
No. Jews and masons tried to make it a hippie free for all but the holy spirit denied them. The wilful misinterpretation of v2 is bad though. But don't worry the liberal priests are dying out and being replaced with young reactionaries. Just ask the father who posts AMA's on pol.

>>138832754
According to that map, Portugal seems pretty atheist too.

>>138832902
You must be looking at things backwards.

>>138832975
Oh yeah.

>>138819085
It was a massive mistake. Go find a FSSP or SSPX church and ride the wave of destruction which is contemporary Western civ

>>138831843
Why the need for the new order of the mass? In what way was it necessary?

>>138826767
Annulments are where there was no legitimate marriage in the first place. Look up the conditions for one it's very hard to get.

>>138831299
That is a stupid argument in so many ways. The two most apparent ways are 1) it implies God enforces belief, and 2) the truth claim of a religion is decided by numbers. Even if every single person on the planet believed in Islam wouldn't make Islam true.

I wish people would calm the down about the Vatican II stuff. You are free to criticise it all you want, but don't go about spreading misinformation about it.

People look at the news and look at their lives and see "a crisis" going on. And naturally, they look for the one sole cause of everything going wrong. Because it is human nature to find a one cause for everything.

People think Vatican II was the biggest change in the Church's history, and that many core beliefs were overhauled. This is very incorrect. There were absolutely no changes any doctrine. The changes only affected the liturgy and the administration of the Church. Far more was changed at the council of Trent.

And the "crisis" going on in the Church is bad, no doubt about it, but it doesn't really seem to be any worse than any other time in history. The Church has always had to deal with scandal and schism. And I can name a few points in history that were far worse for the Church than today. The Church has come out the other side of the sexual abuse scandals, it is growing all over the world, more and more young people are coming back to the faith, the mass communication is making it easier for people to study the faith...

You all need to chill out.

>>138833369
I know.

>>138833365

I just told you that the Catholic Church is granting 60,000 annulments every year. Before the 1960s, they only granted a few hundred every year. So there's no way you can believe that annulment is not just a charade to permit divorce without explicitly saying it.

>>138831609
It's not though. Read orthodox theology and you'll learn that the holy spirit proceeds from the father through the son.

The Eastern Orthodox Bible has a good essay on it

>>138833606
60,000 among over a billion faithful is a vanishingly small number, dude

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>>138833672

The filioque is a heresy. We don't pray it in the Nicene Creed because it is a heresy. All the Greek Fathers are very clear on this matter. If you pray the filioque in the Nicene Creed at mass you are a heretic.

Keep keeping your heads in the sand, Catholicucks,

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>>138819085
Fuck off kike

>>138833791

I was just talking about the annual numbers in the USA.

>>138832754
The US is a protestant country

>>138833606
I'm not ruling out the possibility that priests are abusing annulments, however they sin gravely if they do. The difference is that Rome teaches that only death dissolves a marriage whereas Constantinople allows remarriage even though they do kind of see it as sinful yet still bless it.

>>138833836
Read the Eastern Orthodox Bible apologetic essays. That's what made me go roman catholic after being intent on being Eastern.

>>138819085
Catholics aren't Christian

these guys did a good show on it

http://www.socialmatter.net/2017/07/14/myth-20th-century-episode-26-vatican-ii-catholic-reformation/

>>138819085

Church is in a dark time. Pope is a liberal fool at best and a willful pawn at worst.

Being Catholic was never about the Pope, not many understand that though.

>>138833899

The idea that there cannot be grounds for divorce under extraordinary circumstances such as a wife having her bones broken by her husband is stupid. God will allow exceptions because he is merciful and just.

Orthodoxy allows a maximum of 3 marriages if the conditions for divorce are met and the latter two marriages of a penitential matter.

What the Catholics do is that they create the appearance of being tough and sticking to a rigorous interpretation of marriage law in the gospel but they use semantics and loopholes to have a praxis which is totally unbiblical.

The Orthodox Church is much more reasonable and consistent in my opinion of marriage and divorce.

>>138833983

Well, you made the wrong choice. You should have read St Photius, not Thomas Aquinas.

>>138833868
60,000 annulments a year in a population of 72,000,000 catholics, compared to 876,000 divorces in the national population of ~300,000,000. Annulments are probably being given too readily but to say it's simple divorce by another name doesn't hold water

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>>138834374

Before Vatican II the Catholic Church only handed out a few hundred divorces in the US each year. 300 to 60,000 every year. You're just kidding yourself if you think that every single one of those 60,000 marriages were not entered into validly.

The lengths that Catholics go to to kid themselves is amazing. It's like they've been brainwashed.

>>138824492
I'll do you one better, 1527, the Catholic church was sacked by the troops of it's own holy Roman emperor. Even 490 years ago people had so little respect that even good Catholics would sack your holy city.

>>138834632
I literally just agreed with you that a lot of them were almost certainly handed out falsely. That change the fact that it's observably more difficult for an american catholic to get an annulment than an american citizen to get a divorce

>>138827848
>>138827973
He quit because pedo allegations btw

>>138830054
And Putin is still doing a better job than Francis

Is it official catholic doctrine that if your wife cheats on you and gets pregnant with another man's baby that you have to stay married?

>>138834813

So you're saying there's a chance then?

>>138832754
>China
>Vietnam
>Japan
>South Korea
The only reason they rank so high is because for some stupid reason people confuse folk religion with non-religion.
>Azerbaijan
That country is 97% Muslim
>muh Catholicism
The Czech Republic is the most atheist country in Europe and it was 80% Catholic at the start of the 20th century. France is Catholic and they've been anti-Christian for hundreds of years. Atheism in Europe is more of a regional thing than a denomination thing.

>>138826595
Ummmmm...... if we are talking "traditional" establishment like 33ad, Council of Nicea than like 300 ad or something.... so math

>>138834978

>"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
>Matthew 19:9

>except for sexual immorality

God is all for keeping marriages together, but he doesn't go that far.

>>138834226
Jesus and Paul are very clear that only death ends a marriage. You can try to rationalise it very much by using horrific fantasies but that does not mitigate what is clearly stated in scripture. If a married couple can simply not live together then separation is the way to go. But divorce and remarriage is not possible.