Can Peterson give me guidance or is he a meme? I'm losing

>>136751819
He's great at getting you to understand how awful the world can be and how the only thing you can really do is sharpen yourself so when an opportunity does present itself you have the means to achieve an optimal outcome.

>>136752511
Can he fix my growing depression and self-hating nihilism then?

>>136753004
Go clean your damn room

File: 1500667121619-1.png (1MB, 2611x1524px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2611x1524px

>>136753004
fuck nihilism, you willy. It leads to nothing but death and misery.

>>136754234
Whats the point in me cleaning my room? It just gets messy again.
>>136755210
Can't help it, living the way I'm living. I'm on here every day. It's just sad, and miserable.

File: 9a44d3ed9a8ab3c112253a7e3ae921a08ee62a0a5028fde13407921f8a6f19c8 (1).gif (2MB, 250x338px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 250x338px

>>136755410

The point of cleaning your room is it is a space you control. You start with your room by implementing microroutines to keep it tidy. From there you expand your sorting to other aspects of your life. It is a place to start for greater self sorting.

It's all about creating and maintaining effective habits that improve your life.

>>136755965
Makes sense I guess. I find it hard to stay motivated, and I end up just falling back into the "what's the point" stage, and I never end up progressing. Cleaning my room is a good starting point, considering I'm in there a lot.

>>136751819
I have recently realized that "this degeneracy" cannot win, because it opposes the truth, and the truth is always true.

>>136753004
clean your room and read the Bible

>>136756619
(you)
t-thanks anon

>>136751819
Why dont you listen to his talks instead of asking a board full of degenerates about it? Think of how many people here took Varg seriously. You should know better than to ask 4chan for help with important questions about the soul and being....there are some golden truths here about those subjects but are few and far in between.

>>136751819
He is a meme that can give guidance.

>>136751819
He can show you guidance, but he can't sort you out. That's something you do alone for yourself.

>>136756970
But I thought /pol/ was always right about literally everything and everyone here is 6ft 10, worth millions, married with kids and has their life in order? Why wouldn't I ask /pol/? They wouldn't lie to me, right?

File: pepe 21.jpg (101KB, 566x581px) Image search: [Google]

101KB, 566x581px

Don't listen to his stance on marriage, he's decent at very thing else, but marrying some whore because "she's different" when the State actively wants to fuck you is literal idiocy.

>>136757461
Isn't marriage literally the foundation of civilized living though?

>>136755410
Death and rebirth is the natural cycle of civilization, its how humanity grows and evolves. Thinking that there's no point in fixing something that will get reversed later is juvenile.

>>136751819
Just listen to the man and judge him by yourself. You seem like you need shit spoonfed to you. Grow up a bit. Sure you can ask other people about stuff, but not without a reasonble first exposure to it.
Take the advice of your pic and sort yourself anon

Anon, I tried to make my life better, but my parents crushed me and my dreams and now I dont know what to do, I want to pick up the pieces and move on but it just feels like I'll get crushed again, what should I do?

>>136758211
Judging from the responses on here, I think we need to clean our rooms and sort ourselves out.

File: pepe 27.png (264KB, 509x508px) Image search: [Google]

264KB, 509x508px

>>136757600
It is, but you need to decide if your life's meaning and happiness is worth sacrificing for a society that hates you.

If you look into the stats of marriage, it's the statistical equivalent of playing Russian Roulette with a double barreled shotgun.
Let this degenerate society crumble, it will only grow stronger thereafter. We cannot save it, nor the institution of marriage as so long as the State is involved.

Again, what is more important relative to you. Your life or sacrificing it to try delay an unavoidable collapse.

File: IMG_5936.png (548KB, 500x628px) Image search: [Google]

548KB, 500x628px

>>136753004

>>136755410
>It will just get messy again
That's the whole point.
The same as your "depression"
>Why fix it if it'll break again
Proper maintenance, dumbshit

Reminder that while Peterson does have good points the only one who can truly help you is yourself because it's you who wants to see the change

>>136757600
No, that's partnership
Marriage is a religious meme that you can't function with another person unless under a binding contract

>>136753004
Clean your room.

Not even joking.

Clean your damn room.

You will feel marginally better.

Then clean your house.

You'll feel even better.

Then clean your yard. Better. Then organize your closet. Even more better. Then maybe buy some art and hang it in your room.

Etc.

It really works.


My take on it is that it's not what you get from cleaning that makes you feel better. It's not about "climbing the ladder" back to the human world. It's that doing something productive changes your mood. Maybe it cleans out those neurotransmitters that make you feel like shit, and replaces them with neurotransmitters that are like "whatever man, I got a job to do."

That you gain in the real world, and slowly rebuild your life, (and start to think that maybe you DESERVE to have a good life) is a nice bonus.

Basically, if you're only going to do the bare minimum, do the particular subset of bare minimum that has the greatest positive impact on you-- specifically, that increases the reasonable amount of stuff you're willing to do that you count as "bare minimum."

Or if you're really optimistic, you can stop doing JUST the bare minimum. But you've gotta clean your room a few times before you feel ready to go there, let me be honest.

I think people who slide into depression generally hate themselves. They don't do things like this because they don't think they deserve to have a good life. That's counterintuitive, but it's exactly true. By going ahead and just accruing good things to yourself without thinking too hard about your ultimate destiny, by acting instead of not, you short-circuit that little sabotaging voice in your head that contemplates the wonderful possibilities and decides "no, no, thank you. That's not REALLY an option for me!"

>>136759141
Clean up the world and you will feel like a god

>>136758963
It's also a multi-billion dollar industry, it's the reason the State declares you legally married if you cohabitate with a women. It's the reason prenups and personal marriage contracts get thrown out in divorce.

Lawyers need to make their money, women waste money and therefore are given easy access to the man's assets.

>>136758643
Saved
>>136758790
Alright I get what you and everyone else are saying. Every journey starts with a single step, I guess.
>>136759141
That last paragraph hits home. I get that "I'm worth nothing" feeling all to often nowadays and it's dictating my life for me and has done for over a year now. It's a horrible mindset to have that will end in me killing myself or something.

>>136751819
Listen to him first, then try what he says. Clean your room. If you don't want to buy it, do the self authoring exercises he describes.

Once you've done it, has it made any difference? No? Then drop him. Yes, continue. Just be your own experiment because even if you succeed due to the experimenter's bias you still succeed.

>>136758472
Well, I'll leave the marriage question on hold until I get to that point I guess. No point in worrying about it if I'm not at that stage yet. As for society, yeah it's gone to the dogs sadly. Doubt it'll hold much longer, collapse seems inevitable.

>>136759798
>That last paragraph hits home. I get that "I'm worth nothing" feeling all to often nowadays and it's dictating my life for me and has done for over a year now. It's a horrible mindset to have that will end in me killing myself or something.
The thing is... We're never taught that beating ourselves up, or insulting ourselves is a bad thing. It's really a pretty messed-up thing. We actually think it's somehow virtuous, maybe even keeps us from getting arrogant.

Fuck that.

Next time you're having one of those internal "Oh I suck" dialogs, stop yourself and ask... If I said this to someone else, would I feel like an asshole? If I saw someone saying this to someone else, would I feel compelled to make them stop?

You need to think of it that way, because it does the exact same kind of damage that it would if you said it to someone else.

You need to learn to think of yourself as someone who's worth helping.

Feels weird as hell, I know, but that's because you've never done it before. Your parents never taught you and they should have.

>>136761051
>You need to learn to think of yourself as someone who's worth helping.
As opposed to how most of us think of ourselves-- an obstacle to having good things.

>>136761051

Is that you, Peterson? That's the most brilliant advice I've ever heard.

>>136753004
watch his abraham lectures. they're fantastic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmuzUZTJ0GA

File: getoutofherembeke.gif (2MB, 720x480px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 720x480px

>>136751819
Why dont you listen to his talks instead of asking a board full of degenerates about it? Think of how many people here took Varg seriously. You should know better than to ask 4chan for help with important questions about the soul and being....there are some golden truths here about those subjects but are few and far in between.

>>136759798
First and most importantly, understand that you are not your mind. Your mind constantly lies to you. It even creates negative images and acts them out to feed your ego and your pain body - the identity it has created out of pain and your identification with this pain as part of "who you are". This is why when we are depressed we do things that depress us even more, eventhough we KNOW they make us worse, and then use this as an excuse to beat ourselves up and become even more depressed! Kinda absurd. Learn to observe and recognize this and understand it is not truly "you".

Second, discipline does wonders. As others have said start by cleaning your room. "But I dont feel like doing it because I FEEL such and such feeling". It doesnt matter how you FEEL. You do the action anyways.

Third, get out from your room and do some sort of physical activity. Once again it doesnt matter how you FEEL. You arent a degenerate SJW that bases reality based on what xe/xir/it feels right? Doing exercise, or any physical activity will make you feel physically, mentally, and spiritually better.

I know what it is like to live with and cope with crippling daily depression and social anxiety, so just know that most of it is your mind and pain body playing tricks on you. You have been conditioned by society and your painful experiences into believing it is who you are, but you know better. Also, follow the light of Christ. Even if you begin to approach it from a non-spiritual, non-believer angle. It is humanity's best hope for inner peace. It. You are truly loved and not alone.

>>136751819
This place is filled with terrible people and ideas. Far worst than many of the "degenerates" they claim to oppose. /pol/ is not a place of mora-champions, of crusaders, or even human beings. It's a place of absolute losers who take their frustration out by screaming at others. I only come here to laugh at them and egg them on.

So it was your fault for taking these disguesting subhumans as your teachers.

The world is in perfect fucking harmony. Being angry at the world, seeing it as evil, corrupted, or unnatural is the number 1 indicator of a spiritually broken, mentally destroyed, life-long loser.

>>136761051
Wow that's actually really good advice you've just offered, not the sort of advice I was expecting on here. Sad thing is, I've beaten myself up all of my life and it's restricted my potential massively, doubly so if somebody else says something to me that's hurtful.
>your parents never taught you
My Mother was always busy, supporting me and my siblings and still is to a degree. My father, he hasn't really been in the picture since I was 5. I'm 19 now. Guess that's one of the reasons I'm inquiring about Peterson, he could fill in the gaps my Father failed to fill.
>>136761548
Thank you, I'll look into them.

File: IMG_0087.jpg (84KB, 485x333px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 485x333px

>>136762019

>>136759141
FENGSHUI
E
N
G
S
H
U
I

>>136761188
People need to learn to love themselves. We all think we love ourselves by default because we seek pleasure and we like to get praised and told how great we are, but that's not self love. Those things are more like an obligation. We are obligated to seek them out-- our existence demands it. They are only good because they temporarily fill the void of not having them. At least, that's how you see things when you fundamentally hate yourself. You're only giving yourself food, or letting yourself sleep because agony, hunger and pain will rise up to torment you if you don't. That's what's at the lowest level of our reality, if you take off all the abstraction and complexity from most peoples' lives, even really rich people. It always has been.

Self love is when you can look at yourself, as if you were a disinterested third party, and honestly see yourself. Not judgmentally, but totally dispassionate, just taking it all in-- This is the thing you've been calling "I" all your life. All your flaws and the ways you don't measure up, as well as the good things and future possibilities.

And if you truly love yourself, you can say something along the lines of, "It wouldn't be a bad thing if this person had a good life."

Because, no matter who you are, it wouldn't.

>>136761495
No, just a student. And not just of Dr. Peterson.

File: 1497043822318.jpg (42KB, 422x480px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 422x480px

>>136751819
He is an absolute meme. If you fall for it, then you are an absolute brainlet.

>>136762080
>My Mother was always busy, supporting me and my siblings and still is to a degree.
I know. It's not really your parents' fault. Please don't go blaming or hating them. They were just as subject to these ruinous things as you are now.

It was just me lamenting that the things that we dearly need don't work well anymore.

>>136761744
Another good post, thank you. I like the "you have been conditioned by society and your painful experiences into believing it is who you are". Sadly, I didn't know better and haven't known better for such a long time. I've asked on the Christianity general for some advice on Christ and I've screencapped some of what they've said so that's all good.
>>136762019
/pol/ isn't filled with terrible people and ideas. Sure, a lot of people on here are awful but they've got some great ideas floating around and a lot of folks on here genuinely give a shit. It's just some do and some don't and we can't tell each other apart because of our Anonymous status.

>>136760747
When I was young in a vivid dream an aztec god covered in blood and adorned with skulls came to me and offered me the world if I served him and I was tempted. Was he real?

I thought about it a lot and even though obviously it was just a dream constructed by my imagination it was also literally Satan. There really is power to be had serving "evil" and the imagery represented that temptation. I was hesitant but tempted which represented my real attitude at the time towards things like using murder as a political tool.

>>136762380
>>136763174
I don't blame my parents, I partly blame myself because I'm stuck here doing nothing with my life. I'm at my lowest point right now, I'd say. I want a good life, I really do, but I tend to just slip into the mindset of hating myself. I really do hate myself and look at my flaws instead of the good things about me. It's an awful mindset.

File: 1476409376597.jpg (3MB, 1800x1322px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 1800x1322px

>>136751819
>Can Peterson give me guidance or is he a meme?
He's mostly a meme.

What he did was learn a bunch of philosophy and religion and made his own moral code to live by.

You should do the same thing. Read some philosophy, religion, and history. Synthesize what you read, and find out how you think you should act in the world.

>>136763244
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDyAmksmo40

Listen to his talks anon, they are great background noise that makes you realize the only one that is responsible for how shit you can be is yourself, strive for your best! We all will make it

>>136763846
I love History and Philosophy so I'm okay in that field.
>>136764491
Yeah a lot have suggested that, as well as cleaning my room. Thanks.

>>136751819
By the time you finish reading all the replies ITT, you could have watched one of his videos and decided for yourself. You might feel better about yourself once you stop giving your power away to other people.

>>136761744
>Your mind constantly lies to you.
I think this is the wrong way to look at it. The thing you're calling your "mind" has a job, but without instruction or examples to follow it's just as directionless as you. It's just as much a victim of the world's pathologies as you.

It's not your enemy. It's a part of you, it IS actually you, it's another pathway to "you-ness," the objective-I counterpart to the subjective-I. You know when your experiences merge with it, it can make you live through it the way it most of the time lives through you. The ouroboros, the snake eating itself MIGHT be a symbol for it-- it's sort of the same idea. When you orient yourself in such a way that it becomes visible, you have turned on yourself like the self-eating snake. I think Peterson calls it the "holy spirit," (though he might be referring to something else) and there are any number of things Jung might have called it.

It is the thing you're attacking when you insult yourself. By saying "your mind lies to you," you're really saying "I don't know anything and I'm rendering myself helpless." Which can be a good thing if undertaken wisely, but I don't think the blanket declaration you opened with is.

It can be a great companion on a hard journey. Sometimes it'll be your only companion. It is so much better to be on good terms with it than to just think of it as a lying filthy thing.

Listen closely when you get to the part of his lectures where Dr. Peterson talks about Pinocchio. This thing that I've been talking about is what he thinks is symbolized by Jiminy Cricket in the story.

Otherwise, good post.

File: 1496289792735.jpg (365KB, 1162x850px) Image search: [Google]

365KB, 1162x850px

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIB05YeMiW8
https://www.hooktube.com/watch?v=RIB05YeMiW8

HES NOT A CHRISTIAN

>>136762345
Is feng shui the ultimate redpill?

>>136765006
>You might feel better about yourself once you stop giving your power away to other people
I have no power right now mate, I fit the definition of a pussy. I respect what people have to say when they come into the thread and take the time to reply, even if I don't respond to all of them.

>>136761051
Holy shit this is gold, thanks anon

>>136760747
OP, I'm finding his bible lectures really interesting because of this. Most of my catholic education never got into the subject that these are ultimate truths, even though they are metaphorical. His talks make you appreciate religion in a way that edgy atheists never think of doing

File: 1493154619751.jpg (70KB, 1024x759px) Image search: [Google]

70KB, 1024x759px

>>136763244

That IS what Christianity calls Satan. Whatever modern society tries to tell you, it is real and you see it at work in many places, societies, and cultures. The "old gods" that demanded and received human sacrifices did make their adepts powerful in some ways, at the price of their soul and inner peace. This still goes on today.

>>136763770

It is usually more intelligent and sensible people who fall into the trap of self hatred and depression. Just makes it more frustrating when you see others who dont give a fuck apparently having a better life because they are not as sensible to the world and its iniquities. But you are young as fuck. I would give my left nut to know what I do know when I was your age which is when I was more depressed.

Lift weights and exercise your body. Try to join a jiu jitsu or mma gym. Do not watch pornography. Learn to shoot guns, drive cars, or something cool and exciting that challenges you intellectually but also physically. Make a list of the things you fucking like and start doing them, even for a couple hours a week (those things you dont do but when you see someone do and enjoy, it tugs at your heart because you wish it was you doing them). Go to church and start reading the New Testament with an open mind and heart towards Love. Love yourself. Everynight tell that to yourself instead of running negative images and projections in your mind. Go to a trance rave and take some mdma with friends you love and trust and realize that there is so much love and good in this world despite all the shit, that you just have to allow yourself to let it touch you.

Also, take a break from /pol. It is important to know the fuckery that goes in the world, but all that knowledge does you no good if it just adds to your depression and helps paralyze you in sadness and passiveness towards your life.

>>136763846
>You should do the same thing. Read some philosophy, religion, and history. Synthesize what you read, and find out how you think you should act in the world.
You can't. You simply don't have time in your life to REALLY come up with a coherent structure to live by.

Oh, you can find neat systems, neat ideologies, toys to play with... Anarcho-primitivism, Libertarian-socialism whatever whatever whatever. NO single system that you can fully learn in a month of study can ever contain all the information you need to make decisions about how you live your life. About how other people should live their life-- and that's an important part, man, because what they do impacts you.

There are too many exceptions, and humans, even REALLY stupid people, are EXTREMELY complicated. You probably think you have them figured out ***BUT YOU DO NOT***! All those meme philosophers that get popular-- Stirner, Marx etc... They're memes. Their ideas gain traction because they have some nice moral symmetry or they're pretty or they conform to a certain group of people's temperamental bias.

I've spent WAY too much time thinking about this, better part of a decade, reading, arguing on the internet, probably 2-4 hours a day, and when I found his stuff I was maybe 1% as far along as Peterson. And what he's got took him his entire life-- a life spent with patients in a clinical practice. And I'm nowhere near that smart. Neither are you.

This is why we absolutely need a good culture to live in.

>>136753004

He can't fix it, but he can get you to clean your damn room.

File: 20molyneux.jpg (96KB, 1118x1200px) Image search: [Google]

96KB, 1118x1200px

>>136756493
Become the best version of yourself. {Uberman, Jesus, hero, god, etc...}

Because why not.

The goodness of yourself and the world is up to you. The better you are, the better your life, the better the world.

>>136765061
Your mind is the most powerful computer in the known universe. A fantastic tool, but just a tool. This can be programmed by yourself, or external stimuli, or by others without your knowledge, for good or ill. In our society and human history it has been programmed mostly for ill. An incredible product of evolution, but one ladden with thousands, if not millions of years of collective pain. All information processed through this tool, without awareness, is processed through this filter of feeling pain and consequently fear.

Your mind lies to you by telling you it is who you are. That is the lie. You, control the mind, and are beyond it. The mind is a product of this temporary physical world, but when it is turned off when you die, it is not what remains, what is eternal and transcendent. Begin by observing your mind, your thoughts and constant, almost compulsive identification with them. Do not judge, just observe. When you see and feel the peace that comes from breaking this conditioning you will be amazed, and will be able to use your mind even more focused and more efficiently when it is needed. It is as if a veil is lifted and you use your senses fully, without the machine constantly running in the background.

I really recommend the book "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. If you apply it, you will see it is incredibly, incredibly powerful and liberating.

>>136766244
>You simply don't have time in your life to REALLY come up with a coherent structure to live by.
I think you're just not dedicated enough.

>NO single system that you can fully learn in a month of study can ever contain all the information you need to make decisions about how you live your life.
Well that's why you learn about multiple systems and try to synthesize the good parts of them into your own system.

>About how other people should live their life-- and that's an important part, man, because what they do impacts you.
It's not an important part at all. Why should I care about how others act? There's nothing I can do to stop them from doing what they want, unless I become a totalitarian.

>All those meme philosophers that get popular-- Stirner, Marx etc... They're memes.
Peterson is much meme-ier.

>I've spent WAY too much time thinking about this, better part of a decade, reading, arguing on the internet, probably 2-4 hours a day, and when I found his stuff I was maybe 1% as far along as Peterson.
You sound like a brainlet, honestly.

>And what he's got took him his entire life-- a life spent with patients in a clinical practice.
It didn't take him his entire life. His book which is pretty much his entire philosophy came out 18 years ago, and he really hasn't expanded upon his philosophy since then considering that he's still teaching classes on the book.

>>136751819
He is a great source for guidance. His wisdom stems from the far reaches of the Western and Eastern religious wisdom, science, and a hint of personal experience from his own practicing of psychology.

Ultimately, it is in your own hands to manifest your own destiny. Look upon your own hands. Those hands can create things, or destroy things. That is in itself awesome. You have the very same capacity to control your own sadness as you do your own joy. You may think you're this and you're that, but who told you that? You have every right to be deluded with preposterous illusions as you do in truth. It's up to you how to enjoy your delusions.

In other words, go do something. Anything. Life is about experiencing and doing things. Not to wallow in despair.

>>136751819
You can't predict the future. Who are you to say civilization is ending?

File: 1498526269268.png (232KB, 498x466px) Image search: [Google]

232KB, 498x466px

>>136751819
the only way peterson doesnt change your mind/life is if you are too stupid too understand his vocabulary... i suggest doing the personality lectures first

anyone saying he is a meme or is just a bunch of catch phrases has either never litened to him or just cant comprehend what he is saying.

sorry if i offend retards

OP should stop being a crybabby bitch.

Problem fucking solved.

>>136766044
Thanks for that mate, I appreciate the examples. /pol/ has helped me a lot, but it's making me miserable. I think I could use a break desu.
>>136766358
My room is messy right now so tidying it is a start.
>>136766440
Thanks Stefan.
>>136767433
You're right, life is about the experience I'd say. Sadly, I'm not experiencing it at all, being isolated and shut off from everyone. This is my only form of communication with the outside, nowadays.
>>136767571
Signs of it ending are all there mate. Rampant degeneracy, economic troubles, mass immigration etc.

>>136765380
You do have power though, you have power over yourself. That's the point of cleaning your room. Start somewhere.

>>136767788
He's presented like a meme on here, because when people bring him up they do it with "clean your room sort yourself out Pinocchio dominance hierarchy." If that's how you envision him of course he'll be a meme. /pol/ reduces him to that because his actual lectures are really hard to actually condense into short form messages this place is already accustomed to.

Is he the single most intellectual source of wisdom to fix all of your problems and reveal all the world's truths? No. There's a fuckload of more intense stuff out there if you're really willing to seek it. But in terms of intellect/accessibility value, he's not bad at all.

>>136751819

JBP has been a voice of reason and clarity.

He's a little tough on the nazis but he doesn't demonize them more than the bolsheviks which is fair enough

>>136768417
/pol/ is actually a pretty bad habit. It continually exposes you to the worst fringes of society. Then you keep coming back in hopes of finding something defeating those fringes even though the net outcome is very negative.

>>136768639
Alright, I'll try.
>>136769505
That's okay as long as he means good.
>>136769619
This, this place is pretty awful and insanely out of touch but there is some good information around here and that's why I keep coming back.

>>136756883
Ignore the Christ-cucks, there’s not one useful word in the entire bible

>>136770264
>there’s not one useful word in the entire bible
confirmed for never having read the Bible

>>136770264
The bible is often recommended reading desu

File: Deus Vult 6.jpg (65KB, 490x427px) Image search: [Google]

65KB, 490x427px

>>136770264
Agnostic fag here, you're an idiot.
Read the book, then give criticism.

>>136766979
Oh, I see where that comes from. It's a disagreement about the metaphysical nature of reality.

You're right about the mind being a computer, programmed by things mostly outside of your consciousness. But you ARE that computer. There is no "you" outside of "it."

But the physical world isn't as real as you think it is. So your entire being being locked up in the physical state of a biological computer isn't the materialist death sentence you'd think it was at first blush. I won't go into my metaphysical reasoning now, but let's just say that just because your soul is physical doesn't make it any less inviolable, eternal, or real. And it doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't survive death. Atoms mean nothing. State means everything.

Back to the point, learning to self-program is great, but the arrogance of logic causes it to lose all reason and degenerate into nihilism. You can't discard half your soul without paying a terrible price.

Order and chaos are the names of the game.Order is light, logic and male, psychologically speaking. Chaos is dark, nature, and female. Why? Well, because it's interesting.

See, it's the unity of opposites that makes existence interesting, beautiful, and worthwhile. To play these possibilities out is probably WHY the physical world exists in the first place. If you take the dark parts as something that's limited and of no value, something "only of the material world" (nvm the material world was created by spirit so it's a meaningless distinction anyway*) you're missing half of life.

*(and I am not really religious or spiritual-- or at least I'm not fully committed, I still hold out by like 50% that the material world could be all there is and all spiritual talk is delusion, a good model for psychological functions and a fun bit of fiction, but nothing more. But you know, I wouldn't have gotten into this kind of subject matter if I didn't love a good duality!)

>>136766979
>"The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle.
I'm adding that to my reading list.

>>136767260
You've obviously never been in a tough situation or you'd be far more cagey about your own mental (or otherwise) prowess.

You're arrogant. You have no idea what it takes to live. Shit like this:
>It's not an important part at all. Why should I care about how others act? There's nothing I can do to stop them from doing what they want, unless I become a totalitarian.
Shows you have NOTHING to offer.

You haven't thought about this beyond your own immediate needs. You haven't given thought to other life situations, and you haven't given thought to things that might happen to you in your own future. You have NO place to be giving other people blanket advice.

It is VERY important what other people do. You can't exist wholly independently of other people, you have to reach a contract, an equilibrium, a standard of behavior with other people. Your philosophy might work for someone living on 80 acres stuffed with natural resources and arable land, whose only dealings with others are all voluntary, but in the real world people live in things like cities. Negotiation becomes IMPORTANT.

I know people like you. I see you all the time. Someday, your perfect logical system will fail you. And then you'll default to the only thing you have left because you were so arrogant you thought you had all the answers and there's no time to think of something new now. You'll revert to instinct-- a panicked animal. A PREY animal, to be specific.

>>136772954
>Someday, your perfect logical system will fail you. And then you'll default to the only thing you have left because you were so arrogant you thought you had all the answers and there's no time to think of something new now.
No, I take that back. You'll revert to your animal instinct at the first sign of trouble. Because your personal philosophical system was always window dressing in the first place.

File: 1491949225065.jpg (75KB, 500x750px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 500x750px

>>136772095

I see what you mean and where you are coming from, and the difference of our opinions have probably more to do with semantics. I really think the best way to explain it would be to read the book I recommended and practice it.

There IS a you beyond the mind, that is NOT the mind or caused by it or attained through it. Your true essence, your being, what you call "soul" and which is beyond the interpretations and languages of the mind. But you cannot go beyond the mind by using the mind. You cannot solve the problems caused by the mind by "thinking through them". That is the beauty. Mankind has been trapped in a collective and painful state of mind for a long time. When you experience the real "inner peace" that is beyond the mind it is easier to understand this. I dont pretend to have mastered it or "become enlightened", but the moments I have done so (some have been rather long lasting, months) have been the absolutely most "clear" of my existence, unparalled by any "state of mind" experienced through the intellect, or through substances. Like I said your senses are actually enhanced and thinking and "using your mind" becomes more efficient and focused. It is as if you opened your eyes and saw the reality that has always been infront of you and you were fully present in the moment, unburdened by the false "time" and egoic projections your mind constantly creates.

>>136759141
>Etc.
Lol
Hey, clean your room, put your socks in the sock drawer, etc. until you have a good life

File: you.jpg (10KB, 300x314px) Image search: [Google]

10KB, 300x314px

>>136773749
>There IS a you beyond the mind

>>136751819
Get a fun job and stop browsing pol. You're welcoe

>>136751819

It's like... no.

>>136773749
I'm sorry, but being 100% honest... What parts of it aren't just a rehash of Jung seems like just a bunch of neat sounding garbage that's liable to fall apart the instant something out of the ordinary happens that the structure never accounted for. And assuming you can remember the program-- lots of these supposedly life-changing philosophies never have any effect because you have to put an effort to apply it.

What's good about Jung is that even though it SOUNDS exactly like that when you first read about it, but you realize the more you read and understand that it maps perfectly onto your psychology. And you don't have to try to apply Jungian theory in daily life. It automatically applies itself-- you don't have to remember it, seemingly because all Jung did was point out a part of you that existed all along that you never noticed. He named the winds.

All that is why I think he was onto something profoundly true. Maybe it's power of suggestion, I don't know... but it seems like a lot of this new-age stuff is just second-rate minds trying to say "me too!" to him.

I'll read the book, and it looks like he's got some lectures on youtube I'll watch. Who knows, maybe I'll be converted. I've said exactly the same kind of dismissive things about Jung before, and now I'm basically a disciple so it's not impossible.

>>136772954
>>136773551
You're trying too hard, man.

My point is that the philosophy you find that works for you can't be enforced on others. You just have to be ready to deal with those who will oppose you. You can't convert everyone you meet to what you think is correct.

No matter what philosophy you follow, whether it's Marxism or Peterson's philosophy, people will do things against your interests and you won't always be able to do something about it. So rather than concerning yourself with getting others to act the way you want, you should focus on your own actions because those are things you can actually control.

>>136772095
>you ARE that computer
You are the body, visual input makes us think we reside atop the body, but your toes are more in direct contact with reality than your mind, mind has an indirect relationship with reality

>the physical world isn't as real as you think it is
Physical world is as real as it gets, i would agree doe, that the "solid" conception of it that we have from our scope is illusory/contextual and that when we observe to the world through micro or macroscopic scopes the "solidness" of our reality tends to dissolve into ""liquid/gaseous"" states

>So your entire being being locked up in the physical state of a biological computer isn't the materialist death sentence you'd think it was at first blush
It actually is, but its misguided, you are not trapped inside the physical state, you ARE the physical state, the only thing "locking" you are the linguistic ghosts living inside your mind

>State means everything
Agree

>Order and chaos are the names of the game
Chaos is the name for the -presently- uncognizable forces that are acting upon us, further personification of the seeming existance of chaos only leads to more mind-ghosts being created, ritualistic behaviour, and general irrationality and cargo-cult "chaotic" behaviour being transmitted like a venereal disease, mind to mind, through the use of language and the exercise of physical power

There's no Chaos, only lack of understanding, thats the only real duality that is omnipresent in our condition as beings, known vs unknown, the dark aesthetic of horror, evil, paranoia, and pain stems from the personification, and even deification, of the veiled nature of the unknown

>>136776221
thats literal Petersonism

>>136775985
its pragmatic jung

>>136777198
>thats literal Petersonism
lmao I know.

It's pretty ironic that I'm not a huge fan of him, but I have to argue Peterson's own points against a Peterson fanboy.

>>136751819
Unless you already know a bit of psichology you can easily miss his points so...i doubt it.
You could follow it blindly as if his teachings´d be a religion, but that´s it. You probably won´t get the idea laying behind.

You may learn to solve some issuas, the ones you heard him talking about, yet it´s about how and not what.

>>136775985
You are debating philosophies and systems of beliefs. There is a space and time, and need for that, but in the end it is still using the mind to look for an answer. I think Peterson is great and needed at this moment. What I was saying about the mind is very different from Peterson's lectures or ideas, and ultimately more important for me and you, and for humanity. It is to stop creating time by living in the past and future projections that your mind constantly, pathologically creates and to observe all the "identities" and emotions your mind creates to feed the illusion that it is you. I know it sounds like a bunch of new age mumbo jumbo, but it is far more than that.

Perhaps the fault is mine for lacking the skill to explain it. If interested read the book and practice it. If you are an intellectually driven person and take pride in your reasoning and logical skills and are able to break, even for brief moments, the egoic identification with your mind, you will discover it enhances your intellect. When you see the power this practice has next time "an emotion takes over you" you will be amazed. Give it a try.

Good convo, makes up a bit for all the shill and slide threads....

>>136777387
Most Peterson fanboys are completely deaf to his ideas, they keep shitting comment sections with lousy abstract metaphysics and keep thinking about thought like a key that will open the gates to action

I come to this threads everytime i see one, they are never coming up with a plan or mechanism to instill change in their lives, they just talk about abstract stuff completely alien to actual real life

>>136778061
Accurate

>>136751819
Peterson is a realhumanbean

>>136762706
You're a good man.

>>136770359
>>136770492
>>136771603
Y’all a bunch a buttfucos I was churches until I was 18 and put through a bible club that forces you memorize verses. That was like 4 years ago so I don’t remember them verbatim anymore but I still know the Bible QUITE thoroughly.

Here you go: Jesus said his father cares for the sparrows so how much more does he care for you
Take-Away: enjoy your life and don’t get wrapped up in concerns too much, you’ll be fine

Another one: master gives his slaves talents (coins) to grow wealth from. Two slaves make businesses and grow their wealth. The last slave hides his coins in a jar and earns nothing. The master rewards the slaves who made a gain
Take-away: god gave you talents, put them to use and you will be rewarded, no need to be afraid of putting yourself out there.

There you dick-munchers happy? Now remember not to bathe a baby goat I’m it’s mothers milk and when a woman has her period make sure she goes out in the desert by herself until she is clean again

Fucking retards

>>136761051
>Autism enabler

>>136777387
>literal petersonism
Absolutely not. "Sort yourself out," isn't the same as "pick an ideology, any ideology!"

You were saying that you can choose your own philosophy. Peterson is big on explaining that you can't. If you try all you end up with is a shallow ideology that sounds nice. The problem is the wisdom vs intelligence conflict. Intelligence likes pretty, maybe elaborate, "perfect" solutions. It tends to so easily get distracted by shit-tier mid-20th century philosophers.

Your best bet is to turn to your own cultural stories for guidance, because that's what they were created for. That's where you find wisdom-- wisdom knows from experience. It can guide you because it was built by people who have been there before-- bore the scars and scratches. Not effete dandy-men who spent their lives pontificating in Parisian cafes.

>>136778061
This shit is part and parcel to "petersonism". He isn't some self-help guru, he's a psychiatrist. He goes off on abstract spiritual tangents all the time.

You not knowing that shows me you're very likely a casual shill.

>>136779781
Keep on reaching, Evita.

>>136770069
>insanely out of touch

/pol/ is always right though. The deep cynicism here can actually help you navigate or different situations irl
>especially about women

>>136779814
>Absolutely not. "Sort yourself out," isn't the same as "pick an ideology, any ideology!"
You dumb fuck. He wasn't saying "pick any ideology" was Petersonism, he was saying the idea that you should change yourself rather than others is one of Peterson's ideas, which it is.

>>136779814
>You not knowing that shows me you're very likely a casual shill.
Lol, ive been in every of these shits, ive never seen you develop anything of worth as a community of people who claim to want to get better


>>136779989
You are laying an autism trap, and you know it. If you get someone who is an absolute beta who despises himself and ask them "would you treat someone else this way?" he wouldn't, of course he wouldn't, he is a fucking beta; he would be afraid of telling a rapist he is a fucking piece of shit, he would create excuses for him and """forgive him""" (avoid taking an aggressive risky stance)

If you've done horrible shit and later on discovered it was horrible due to a personality change, then fucking take responsibility and LEARN from it, pay your debts to god and your victims like a man, and start thinking about your actions instead of just running with whatever seems validated in the moment

Treating yourself like a pissing puppy doesn't help in the least bit

>>136780186
That wasn't the point I was making.

Peterson always advises that people turn to their culture for answers. Their own religions etc. The reason is because it's important for a society to have shared sense of identity.

This pick-an-ideology thing doesn't do that. It actually makes everyone more insulated. And most of the ideologies out there are unwise, and considering the situation in which they're usually chosen, are taken on for all the wrong reasons.

Definitely read good books, definitely take part in intellectual life, but don't use it as a badge of identity. That's pathological.

File: ParadigmShifted.jpg (132KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

132KB, 1280x720px

>>136751819
Jordan Peterson is central to our movements traditionalist patriarchal philosophy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nyw4rTywyY0

>>136780594
He didn't say pick an ideology, he said that "whatever ideology you have", work on controlling yourself instead of trying to force control over what essentialy are uncontrollable agents

>>136779814
Also, another thing that bothers me about your post:

>Your best bet is to turn to your own cultural stories for guidance, because that's what they were created for.

I agree with you, that's why I suggested OP should read about religion.

>>136780594
>you can't just choose your ideology
>just turn back to your culture's religion, it doesn't matter which culture you're from
Do you see the conflict here?

>This pick-an-ideology thing doesn't do that. It actually makes everyone more insulated.
It wouldn't make OP insulated if he reads a bunch of philosophy, like I suggested. If he understands many different philosophies and ideologies than he'll have a better chance at understanding other people and seeing where their arguments come from.

>>136780464
Still reaching, Pablo.

I could explain to you what autism actually is and how having self-knowledge and explicit self-respect are probably the best things you can do to overcome many social difficulties, but screw it. I'm sick of messing with disingenuous actors. Sit and spin.

>>136779725
I grew up similarly and used to think this until I wanted to learn more about the history of civilization. The New Testament has had a great impact on how the western world lives today, which is what drove me to reread it. Once I removed all bias and preconceived notions, I finally understood why it's endured until modern times and realized there were much deeper meanings that went over my head as a child/teenager. If you want to keep a child-like perspective of it, by all means. You won't be taken seriously when debating it as an adult with other adults.

>>136781119
Im not disingenuous, you are
>what autism actually is
Why does it even matter? Autism has a meaning here and i use that meaning for lack of a better word, it would take me maybe a paragraph and multiple pics to refer to what i mean by autism without saying "autism"

>self-knowledge and explicit self-respect
There's things one does that can have no respect, to respect them unconditionally to avoid having an (accurate) bad thought about oneself is the trade of moms and cowards.

If you want me to reach you at some sort of middle point, i could say that most things people worry about are absolutely nothing, there's countless horrible things happening in the world, and they all are ten times fold whatever faggotry you feel bad about. In most cases, what you feel bad about is just a meme pop-social hierarchy you have allowed to posess your brain that is combatable with minimum amounts of discipline and effort.

>>136781099
I think maybe you people are reading things I never said and arguing against that. So, let's start again.

The first post in this whole debacle of an exchange was basically "Make up your own philosophical system by reading books." My response, and this is directly from Peterson, my post I think even borrows some of his phrasing, was that that's unwise. I'll dig up a clip, give me a minute.

There's nothing wrong with reading lots of philosophy-- I never said there was.

When modern westerners, especially adolescents study philosophy, they tend to fall in love with just one of them. "I read stirner so I'm an egoist!" "I read Karpovsky-Michelheim so etc." And they base their life and identity around it from then on.

It's bad identifying so completely with untested ideas. If you reach adulthood possessed by a particularly radical (like Marxism) or unwise (like Marxism) one you're tempted to abandon the traditional social structures and replace them with crap.

That's what this entire exchange has been about and I don't think anyone has understood that yet. I kind of assumed you'd know what I was talking about already-- he's gone on that tangent at least three times in three different contexts that I can remember.

>>136779725
Wow good for you truly changed my mind with your elucidations anon, great job.

>>136782433
>I think maybe you people are reading things I never said and arguing against that. So, let's start again.
lol, it's ironic to accuse me of not understanding posts when you didn't understand the Argentine's "literal Petersonism" post.

>When modern westerners, especially adolescents study philosophy, they tend to fall in love with just one of them. "I read stirner so I'm an egoist!" "I read Karpovsky-Michelheim so etc." And they base their life and identity around it from then on.
You mean like you're doing with Peterson? You're so in love with him that you even try to make your posts sound like him.

Anyways, the last half of your post I agree with. The last half of your post doesn't even contradict my original recommendation.

I guess are real disagreement is that you think people should subscribe to Peterson's theories and their culture's religious traditions, while I argue that you should basically try to do what Peterson has done, namely read a bunch of philosophy, history, and religion and synthesize the good/intriguing parts from each of them and learn how to act in the world. And I would say that if you try to do this, you might do just as well as Peterson considering that he hasn't majored in philosophy or theology. He merely read the stuff in his free time (and there's nothing wrong with this).

>>136781783
You're just contradicting everything I say, Esteban. This isn't fun.

Some Jung quotes:

>“The most terrifying thing is to accept oneself completely.”

>“People will do anything, no matter how absurd, to avoid facing their own souls.”

>“The acceptance of oneself is the essence of the whole moral problem and the epitome of a whole outlook on life. That I feed the hungry, that I forgive an insult, that I love my enemy in the name of Christ -- all these are undoubtedly great virtues. What I do unto the least of my brethren, that I do unto Christ. But what if I should discover that the least among them all, the poorest of all the beggars, the most impudent of all the offenders, the very enemy himself -- that these are within me, and that I myself stand in need of the alms of my own kindness -- that I myself am the enemy who must be loved -- what then? As a rule, the Christian's attitude is then reversed; there is no longer any question of love or long-suffering; we say to the brother within us "Raca," and condemn and rage against ourselves. We hide it from the world; we refuse to admit ever having met this least among the lowly in ourselves.”

>>136783853
??? I could easily deconstruct those quotes and make them support my claims.

I just realized most of my responses were against you, so now i understand your aggresiveness, i swear you i didn't know till now, for me it were multiple yanks

First one: >>136759141, i criticized your use of "Etc." after cleaning shit, its what i see in most Peterson fanboys, they freeze after cleaning, they can't evolve further

Second: >>136776871, i just answered here cause i wanted to present an abridged version of my own response to mind-supremacy, im still working on it, if you want i can go full depth on why i think its all body and not all mind

Third: >>136777198, i read this as if you were dropping Jung and saying you didn't understand why the fuss about Peterson, i said "pragmatic jung"

Fourth:>>136761051, we already discussed on this, i don't think the "treat myself like a pissing puppy" mindset is good

File: ntytnytn.png (36KB, 492x272px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 492x272px

the memes are converging

>>136753004
Do the self authoring suite. You might not want to pay $15 for it and that's understandable, but Peterson explains in depth what it is in the Joe Rogan podcast so I did it myself on pen and paper. It's actually cathartic cause as you write all the bullshit that you've kept suppressed or forgotten over the years start to come up again and as you write what happened how you felt about it etc. You start to analyze and resolve it since you're now rational as it's recalled in afterthought. So you resolve your past and then you resolve your present and then the future. For the future you describe in detail the worst possible outcome your life can go to and then the best future you want for yourself. You can even the formulate steps on how to achieve the worst and best futures. This gives you a hell to run away from and a heaven so to speak to run to. Try this and sort yourself out. Pick yourself up I believe in you

>>136784993
kek

well thats about it, trannies belong in the military , peace out.

>>136783747
>lol, it's ironic to accuse me of not understanding posts when you didn't understand the Argentine's "literal Petersonism" post.
That's fucking retarded and you know it because there isn't any one thing that can be called "Petersonism". Do you know how many different things he's said?

>You mean like you're doing with Peterson? You're so in love with him that you even try to make your posts sound like him.
Not really an argument, but I hate Molymeme so I guess that's off-limits.

I'll admit, I am pretty taken with his stuff. But I was already deep into Jung, already believed in following one's culture. I was already dabbling in stuff like Nietzsche. I've also read the classics, Marx, vedic texts, CS Lewis More popular "infotainment" books than I can remember. I've read about quantum field theory, quantum electrodynamics, relativity, mostly understood them, biology, neuroscience. Stuff he mentions I'm familiar with, but didn't learn from him.

Peterson didn't tell me how to think. He was just decades further along the direction I was already headed.

I guess you can still claim a victory here if you really want to but for two things: He's not my only source, and I'm not an idiot.

>and synthesize the good/intriguing parts from each of them and learn how to act in the world.

And here's the problem... Most people can't do that. We just don't have time. Even if everyone COULD do it, you'd wreck social trust because you can't predict people with potentially VERY different moral systems.

If you're going to be educated, fine. You can even have your own affinities. You can even, if you reach a high enough position in society, start gradually changing things based on those ideas.

But it has to be slow. You are stuck in a society. And people in a society have to get along. That means a shared identity and culture, and no overnight changes.

(Luckily, most people are still cultural christians, even atheists, even vapid anti-christfags)

>>136786174
I'm using the "hell I'd like to avoid" to help myself with drinking 2bh

>>136784427
I know you're coordinated opposition, but you're REALLY not good at it. Just sit down. It's embarassing at this point.

>>136751819
I feel the same way. I see things going to shit, crap being pushed into indoctrinating children. I just want to buy some land and gtfo.

>>136786357
>mostly understood them
Well, mostly is a little bit of an overstatement, but I can at least follow it.

>>136786174
>paying for it
/fit/'s self improvement has it in their OP

>>136786550
>buy some land and gtfo.
low trait extraversion, low trait agreeableness. See you on the range, anon.

>>136786523
Lol, kys faggot, you haven't responded to even one of the arguments against you i posted

You're just one more kybalion faggot trying to pull your bullshit out of suggestion on /pol/

File: IMG_3544.png (326KB, 610x406px) Image search: [Google]

326KB, 610x406px

>>136784993
Unfortunate. Hopefully these content creators will gather their child/teen user base as a form of protest.
>inb4 degenerate
We live in a democracy, which requires you to be a player. If you don't steer them into a direction that leads to a more fulfilling life they'll end up like OP or people like me who fell for memes years ago, that now have to "sort themselves out" because liberalism leads to suffering.

>>136755965
I know it's you, Dr.
I've called you put here once before
>D-d-d-dr. Peterson
You are a great man
Hats off to you sir and best regards

>>136787027
You've not made arguments, just wild accusations. You aren't here to learn, you aren't here to try your own ideas against other people, you even just a misguided freak, here because there's an issue that bothers you and the only way to try to get to the bottom of it is to start shit with people until they tell you the truth, or at least a truth you can understand.

All of those things I'd gladly engage with. But you... You're just employing ablative distraction tactics. Throwing up objection after objection, contradictions that aren't based in anything, and get shot down easily. But seeing as you have the convenience of not having an inner principle to stand on, it doesn't bother you. You can come up with some other bizarre shit and just conveniently forget everything that came before. You don't even need to understand the subject matter! Just keep crankin' em out.

>>136765281
Probably. I tried it and my chi is up over 900%

Can't wait until Trump makes anime real, I'll be kamehamehaing like a motherfucker

>>136788102
>You've not made arguments, just wild accusations.
Lol, no i haven't, ive given a reason for each of my statements

>You aren't here to learn,
Of course im fucking not, what could i possibly learn in here? None of you should be here to learn, you should be here to form a swarm ""community"" around a central preposition

>you aren't here to try your own ideas against other people,
Ive been doing that and recieved (literal) name calling from you

>you even just a misguided freak
>You've not made arguments, just wild accusations.

>there's an issue that bothers you and the only way to try to get to the bottom of it is to start shit with people until they tell you the truth, or at least a truth you can understand.
I only want intelectual honesty, you aren't playing with it

>All of those things I'd gladly engage with. But you... You're just employing ablative distraction tactics. Throwing up objection after objection
blablabla nigger /int/ pasta

Keep ruining people lad, you truly are doing god's work, toxic masculinity needs to die! Long live Ishtar, long live Cybeles, long live Gaia!

Fucking coward faggot

File: TiredOfThisShit.png (916KB, 1260x670px) Image search: [Google]

916KB, 1260x670px

>There are people in this thread right now who have not cleaned there room.

It's like you don't even want to rescue your father from the underworld.

>>136789040

>dirty room detected

>>136789914
Im 100% Peterson, is this fag who has a dirty room, socks all over!

>>136784993

I'm glad we have an intellectual heavyweight like Peterson on our side.

>>136751819
Gas the kikes race war now

>>136776871
Didn't see this.
>Physical world is as real as it gets, i would agree doe, that the "solid" conception of it that we have from our scope is illusory/contextual and that when we observe to the world through micro or macroscopic scopes the "solidness" of our reality tends to dissolve into ""liquid/gaseous"" states
Not really. The physical world is made of information. "physical" systems are in an unknown, unreal superposition-like state when outside of the current causal envelope (historic light cone, or just lacking a causal connection i.e. quantum entanglement to resolve its state), and actually AREN'T resolved until a causal connection is again established. This implies an almost "formulaic" composition of reality-- reality is the result of a calculation for which only relevant variables can be considered. Things outside of the light cone or without a causal relation are left out. I know it sounds like it, but it really isn't gobbldygook. It's probably not perfect by any means, I'm no genius, but I at least understand this.

>It actually is, but its misguided, you are not trapped inside the physical state, you ARE the physical state, the only thing "locking" you are the linguistic ghosts living inside your mind
This is correct. But the physical state is ACTUALLY metaphysical. We know this because it can be duplicated infinite times in an infinite universe, and you can never tell one instance from another. In this case, it makes morer sense to me that "you" are the information about that physical system. The universe may not even need to be infinite, it may just be a state machine that visits every possibility exactly once-- we'd never know the difference.

>Chaos is the name for the -presently- uncognizable forces
Not necessarily. It may just be the force that represents every possibility, and can inject anything into a system, with the intent of avoiding loops and deadlocks that would preclude consciousness from ever developing(or keep it stuck)

>>136786357
>That's fucking retarded and you know it because there isn't any one thing that can be called "Petersonism". Do you know how many different things he's said?
Nigga, he wasn't saying that I was espousing Peterson's entire philosophy, he was saying that my argument was an argument that Peterson has made.

>And here's the problem... Most people can't do that. We just don't have time. Even if everyone COULD do it, you'd wreck social trust because you can't predict people with potentially VERY different moral systems.
So since some people don't have time, you should just ride Peterson's dick and trust that he figured it out better?

And also, even if other people have very different moral system from you, doesn't mean you should follow that same moral system. That's cultural relativism. And, if you read a wide range of philosophy, you're only going to increase your knowledge, you won't forget how normal people act. You interact with normal people everyday.

>And people in a society have to get along. That means a shared identity and culture, and no overnight changes.
You really are a cultural relativist. Culture doesn't define truth or morality. I understand society is an important thing, but it's really silly to urge others not to become learned in philosophy and religion just because it may counter society's cultural norms.

>>136790267
>The physical world is made of information
I agree, but this doesn't mean it isn't real, it only means its - representation - (important word) is dependent on the scope of our body, if we had an ant body, for example, the world would look quite different, but the information on it would remain true, the processes on it would remain true. A finger squashing us wouldn't look like a giant finger squashing us, we don't have a clue what it would be sensed us, but we would be squashed by it nontheless.

>the physical state is ACTUALLY metaphysical
I agree, the difference is due to language, physical and metaphysical are one same thing.

>it makes morer sense to me that "you" are the information about that physical system.
If the physical system is information, and "you" are the information, aren't you the physical system?

>Not necessarily
I watched a , i think Numberphile, video a while ago, it was about random numers, the guy had decaying(radiation) matter and a geiger counter and said that were the only pseudo random numbers possible to obtain in the real world, and that, even then, they weren't actually random but *just werked* for the intent

>It may just be the force that represents every possibility, and can inject anything into a system, with the intent of avoiding loops and deadlocks that would preclude consciousness from ever developing(or keep it stuck)
I argue that force is cognizable, ordered, and non-chaotic at all, its "existance" separated from the All is just due to the contrasted nature of cognizable - uncognizable we have, in reality is just a part of the All that we simply don't know how to calculate so it surprises us

>>136790347
>Nigga, he wasn't saying that I was espousing Peterson's entire philosophy, he was saying that my argument was an argument that Peterson has made.
I don't care anymore. That guy is a cretin and if you think he's at all worth talking to you're probably in league with him. If that's true, you're a much better shill, I must say.

>So since some people don't have time, you should just ride Peterson's dick and trust that he figured it out better?
No. The point is it's arrogant to assume you know better than your ancestors. That's the basic assumption you're making in this argument that you can't let go of.

>different moral systems
You've probably never even really dealt with people of different moral systems. Go read about westerners trying to do business in china or the middle east.

> Culture doesn't define truth or morality. I
Not what I'm saying. I'm saying that a civilization, in order to be civil, needs to have some basis that everyone follows. Some set of assumptions you can make about everyone you meet.

We can tolerate a lot of ideological diversity in this culture, and that's not a bad thing. But it's because our social systems are REALLY good-- and nobody's doing that. It's at the point of imminent failure, and most people alive have no concept of what it'll be like when it really does fail.

Maintaining it will probably mean some sacrificing of your snowflake philosophy. You can still keep and promulgate your ideas, but introduce actual change SLOWLY. Don't tear down or condescend too harshly to the mainstream. They're what keep you afloat (such a bad pun I didn't mean it fuck)

Anyway, this has been a mostly good convo, but I need to sleep. Night.

>>136791115
>That guy is a cretin
Hey fuck you, im not a shill, im a pusher

>>136762019
>come here to egg them on
My friend... You are no different than us.

>>136791094
One more.
>representation
Agreed. I think there's got to be some kind of consciousness there though, and which could probably be reasoned with. A soul maybe with a completely different structure to our own?

A good word that exists for this concept is "Umwelt".

>only pseudo random numbers possible to obtain in the real world
Maybe for CPUs, because they get random numbers algorithmically. Actual quantum interactions are truly random, and cannot be predicted. Many people think they're actually deterministic somehow, via hidden variables, but part of me thinks that's just a desperate clinging to some outdated concepts (at least until some of my information theory ideas allowed for it-- in a way). I'm probably not good to pronounce on that from a scientific standpoint right now, I'm very possessed by my duality-religion thing and probably not thinking unbiasedly.

>the all
I'm not a believer in determinism. I think if totally deterministic processes that have no noise or jitterr were real, like langton's ant, they would break down into very narrow repeating patterns that make consciousness impossible. There may be deterministic universes, but which can't support intelligence.

Now, I can conceive of "the all" as representing every possibility, even infinitely distinct gradients. That would count as a deterministic universe, but only from the outside. From the inside, random is just random.

>>136791927
>I think there's got to be some kind of consciousness there though, and which could probably be reasoned with.
I agree, in fact i believe meta-linguistic conscious entities arise from societal forces. Doe i guess you believe more in like, plant consciousness?

>Umwelt
Will google

>Maybe for CPUs
No, from the real word
>Actual quantum interactions are truly random, and cannot be predicted
I wouldn't know, i don't think they are chaotic doe, just because they put Newtonian physics in trouble it doesn't mean they operate in a chaotic manner, just in an uncognizable one whose revelations shatter our previous beliefs, chaos seems to be impossible when you think about it in a bigger scope.

>they would break down into very narrow repeating patterns that make consciousness impossible.
Not necesarilly, fractals and emergent qualities


>Now, I can conceive of "the all" as representing every possibility, even infinitely distinct gradients. That would count as a deterministic universe, but only from the outside. From the inside, random is just random.

This is what i mean, look i don't know if there are infinite universes or only one, all i know is that if logic is to be believed, which is a self defeating argument, cause the only way to disprove logic is through logic,

and if the idea of a deluding demiurge isn't to be believed, which i believe cause paranoia is easily replicable,

if one believes that the veils of illusion are a self-imposed evil, which i believe cause illusions rely on naivety

then its logically consistent to think in an All. If you want i can expand on it, but the main point is that the amount of universes doesn't matter, free will is completely possible given differences in agent information, the only way to close the system is determinism, and determinsm doesn't exclude freedom.

I think life is a message and our experience is the representation of the act of that message being decoded

>>136793136
>I think life is a message and our experience is the representation of the act of that message being decoded

And in that sense, the physical world would be some sort of alphabet or dictionary, a starting point for all words that are possible to manifest themselves and join into sentences

The "solidness" of the physical world doesn't matter, it could ultimately be "liquid", "gaseous", "solid", "spiritual", or whatever state-tier noun you want to describe it with, but to deny its existance is idiotic and mostly talks about a lack of connection with other perceiving agents, a monologue run lose through more and more layers of abstractions that has never been never grounded to reality by a punch