why the fuck is the pro-life, pro-choice argument even real why

>>135879489
Well it's my sperm so i should decide what happens to it.

>>135879568
It's not your sperm. You gave it to the woman.

>>135879489
people gotta get their dead babies for child sacrifice somehow, might as well convince people to do it willingly.

>>135879568
yeah except when abortions are outlawed, medicaid funding is going to rise from coat-hanger infection treatments.

now they are spending your money instead of purchasing an abortion

>>135879489

I support you being aborted, but not anyone else.

Nuttin matters bro, we're all just specks of asteroid dust floating on an even bigger rock hurdling through space. Besides babies aren't even conscious until birth

>>135879489
>You get to existence while dictating which organisms deserve the same shot at existence you got
What the fuck?! Liberals are the nazis of our generation

>>135879944
What a pussy

>>135879944
im all for killing your own children out of womb and outside womb. but when the society has contributed some amount of money to the child (be it more welfare, school) the child is no longer solely yours and you dont have the right to kill it

>>135879489
>Implying women are capable of making decisions.

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>>135879489
Slider if I ever saw one.
OP is a big time degenerate faggot

>>135880472
This, most abortions are amongst single black women. Would pay way more in the long run for little niggS prison sentence or welfare checks.

The disabled and those on government assistance, so basically niggers, should not be allowed to have children. If somebody gets pregnant, they get a forced state sponsored abortion. If they somehow do manage to have a child, it gets taken immediately and put into foster care far across the country without letting the parents know where and sealing the record forever.

No one should be forced to carry a fetus against their will. The unborn have no special right to someones body, the same way any citizen cannot conscript another to act as a bloodbag, and kidney.

>>135879489
Abortions in and of themselves can be useful tools under the right circumstances. The issue is that when you commit to a moral and social philosophy under which abortion is justifiable outside of extreme circumstances, you must also commit yourself to other manifestations of this philosophy/order which are absolutely backwards and abhorrent. Abortion is basically the ultimate in free association, yet it is only leftists that push it. If one has bodily autonomy, why is one then committed to working to feed their child once they have been born? What's the fucking difference between taking a fetus at 4 months and pulling it out and saying that because it cannot fend for itself, and I (the mother) do not wish to undergo the necessary actions in keeping it alive, it must die and doing the same with a child just born? The only difference is that one grows inside the mother while the other grows outside. By this logic, it is also moral to take an educated guess as to the earliest a fetus will survive outside the womb and then remove it simply because the mother no longer feels like being pregnant, like some kind of compromise.

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Big pharma is literally murdering human beings for money. It’s so fucked. And somehow it’s legal and people are okay with it.

>>135881726
You can abandon a foetus after it is born. Its called a baby and they are adoptable.

it's actually better for society, crime rates go down when abortions are legal and women will get them anyway it just makes them safer

>>135879706
>implying woman is not yours also

>>135881853
Do you even know what pharma is dummy

Abortion is a good thing but only if the mother is also sterilized.

>>135879489
Having a baby in you and not wanting it is called "Psychosis", as in "mental insanity". I could care less if people like Whoopi Goldberg died from their coat-hanger abortions, and if you leftists really think anyone is going to help and take care of you when you get yourself knocked up, then try shoving things in there for fun, you live in another reality. Only family really helps me out from time to time, but I make sure to pay them back. Now, take that, and you really think some methhead heroin junkie who wants to die is going to pay you back 10 states away? Yeah right, they couldn't give a fuck about their own lives, let alone, lives of those around them. I'm not carrying anyone on my back. Having abortions is bad for white society, it's okay for the beasts to do it (lib; "haha, but animals do it too!"). Like okay, you filthy animal, go fucking get one, and then commit suicide yourself.

>>135879489
I couldn't convince my ex to have an abortion, so I drugged her, kicked a stomach really hard a few times, shoved my fist up her vag and then yanked the disgusting fetus out. It was in it's 8th month so it started screaming when I pressed it in the mixer. Made a fetus smoothie to get my yearly intake of stemcells.

Instead of doing all this extra money even libs can't afford. I would see an alternative as "Give me $300 and I'll get myself sterilized" + cost of it, that would be AN OKAY THING MOST PEOPLE WOULD BE ON BOARD. But liberals just want the money TO KEEP ON FLOWING.

>>135879489
Were you aborted?

I met a Nazi Carnie today at the faire, AND I JUST REALLY LOVE WHITE PEOPLE MORE. There were a bunch of negro'd carnies, and even more confederate flags being flown, and people talking about how they "Hate the poles and the Jews" out loud in public. AND DAMN IT FEELS GOOD TO BE THIS FREE.

>>135879753
>people gotta get their dead babies for child sacrifice somehow, might as well convince people to do it willingly.

woukld you rather have no abortion and let niggers and other subhumans shit out kids the cannot raise?

>>135883173
>Niggers
>Humans
Pick one.
As beasts do, beasts do. A group in Chicago called themselves Janes and would secretly take Niggers to NYC to obtain illegal abortions. Image what that ride must have been like. That's a whole lot of insanity in 1 vehicle.

>>135879489
A women has every right to get an abortion. I think it should be done no later than 120 days after conception though.

>>135883173
Nogs rarely if ever get abortions, while abortions are pushed on rich whites

>>135882787

whether or not you care about the woman getting the abortion (btw doesn't require mental illness, people are just animals and many animals kill their young when conditions to have them aren't favourable; humans have just found a way to do that before it's even born) the reality is that when abortions are legal there's less crime...

the people who get abortions frequently are incapable of raising children properly, and as a result the children are often the product of terrible environments (this is especially true if someone is forced to have something they didn't want, and if they don't keep it very frequently these children go on to become wards of the state costing money, and also living mostly terrible lives and being affected by that), and that typically doesn't lead to anything beneficial for anyone...

it's just better for society in general that women have abortions when they want or need one, and there's no benefit to making them have those kids... it's win/win

there's also no reason why it should be illegal

inb4: "it's murder"

so? there are plenty of instances where killing is completely justifiable and is the better option, this is one of them

>>135879489
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9tmOyrIlYM

The moment that sperm hits that egg, life begins.

>>135883397
not treu one of the major reason the nig population hasnt exploded is abortion.

>>135883321
i would rather have abortions for nigger only and the poor so they dont raise disfunctional children.

either way abortion are a usseful tool for eugenics getting rid of niggers and retards is always prefreble than letting them have there disfunctional ofspring.

>>135883173
niggers and subhumans need to be fucking sterilized AT BIRTH. in a generation they will be done. i shoulda finished med school. i could have helped in the sneaky sterilizations dept

>>135880472
This.

>>135879489
i support abortion of liberal subhumans, but not actual people, since that would be murder.

>>135883589

it doesn't matter where life begins, it doesn't matter if an embryo is life or not, sometimes killing is justified

think of wars, revolutions, in certain cases the death penalty, when someone kills someone who's been extremely abusive towards them or in self defense etc etc etc

there's instances where killing is not only justifiable, but sometimes the best option given a circumstance... abortion is no different

it's beneficial towards everyone in a society that those women kill those "children" (and i use the term loosely, life or not that's not a child yet) so it's justifiable, beneficial killing that does everyone a favour...

you know what makes things worse all around though? those women having those kids... it's not beneficial for them, society, or those kids

it's not somehow the nicer option to have those kids grow up and be a part of society in many cases

there's probably some where it might have been, but there's always that risk when doing anything

unavoidable risk that's minimal in comparison to another option is always preferable

>>135883760
>niggers and subhumans need to be fucking sterilized AT BIRTH. in a generation they will be done. i shoulda finished med school. i could have helped in the sneaky sterilizations dept

i agree its that abortions are eugenics without the shitstorm that comes with emplimenting maditory eugenics policies.

>>135883955
Your

post

has

a

lot

of

self

importance.

Learn how to post without actually coming off as a faggot bigot, pig.

>>135879489
Not as bad as having children and neglecting them, but it's a medical procedure that is costly and comes with its own risks.
Don't bother with the hypocrisy of /pol/, they only care if its white babies that are aborted but encourage abortions of any other race.

>it's ok to kill white children because the third largest racial demographic that sits around 10% does it too

>>135883955
r

e

d

d

i

t

s

p

a

c

i

n

g

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>Is having abortions really that bad for society?
No, in fact it's a net gain, because the types of people who get abortions are usually not fit to become parents, won't take care of their children or raise them properly, the children grow up to become criminals and deadbeats, and the cycle starts all over again.
I find it pretty interesting that people seem to care so much about caring for children but as soon as the baby pops out and is hungry and the mom can't take care of it everybody says "WHELP, SHOULDA STUDIED A STEM DEGREE!"

>>135883397
Nogs and spics get the most abortions

>>135879788
>We shouldn't outlaw murder because people will do it anyway!

>>135883004
You Somalian by any chance?

>>135884275

how am i coming off like a bigot? i didn't mention race, class, or ethnicity

i'm just talking about statistics, and the reality is when abortions are legal crime rates go up

it's also true that children who become wards of the state or who are unwanted typically have shitty lives, shitty lives often lead to a lot of issues later on in life

it's dangerous for the woman to have an abortion illegally, and it's also unlikely to go well if a woman who can't handle the idea of being pregnant and having a kid is carrying a child longterm

you ever watch a woman smoke weed, cigarettes, and drink while 6 months pregnant? i have, and it isn't pretty...

where's the bigotry in facts and statistics?

as for what i said about killing people really are just animals (regardless of ethnicity), and animals killing their young in unfavourable conditions is just part of nature... in that regard, while technologically advanced, killing a child in that manner when it's unwanted and the conditions aren't good to have it is perfectly natural

also like i said, there's many instances where killing is perfectly justifiable and even beneficial

if you could point out the bigotry in any of that do it, because i'm not seeing it...

>>135879489
I can get behind abortions, for logical reasons (child has down syndrome, low income families and irresponsible parents) but that whole bullshit about it being the womens body and the right to choose is wrong, its a living being so don't pretend you have moral superiority for choosing to end it. I don't have to like it and i would never get one with my gf but i understand the world isn't black and white. Make abortions legal, but don't bullshit me its about womens freedom.

>>135883955
What has a baby done to deserve death?
If your argument is just a utilitarian one, you should know that I find your death exceedingly utile.

>>135884496

i never go on reddit, so i guess you know better than i would what people type like there

ignoring the content and commenting on my typing style doesn't add much to the discussion though

>>135879489
I'm ok with it. The kind of people who are ok with killing babies shouldn't be reproducing anyways.

>>135884885

there's no such thing as deserve, people have a mentality that things need to be deserved in order to happen, but that's not actually how reality works

sometimes things that aren't deserved happen and are part of life

my argument is simply that it's part of nature, and also beneficial to all parties that it's legal

aside from that i don't feel that it's the government's place to make it illegal, too intrusive and too much government control

people should really put more thought into how much power they want to give a small group of people they make masters out of... just saying

How long should abortions be legal from the view of a pro-choicer?

>>135884827
>people really are just animals
You're sick. People have a species-being. We care about each other and we have intellect.
You are not supposed to feel this way.

>>135879489
It's bad enough to make me reject a woman if she's had one.
Some matters you just don't mess with.

>cuckservaties can shoot someone for trespassing their lawn
>women can't kill someone for being inside their body

>>135885043
huh really makes me think

>>135885043
Your argument presupposes that if something is beneficial to all parties, then it's deserved.

As for the government thing, I tend to agree. A society should police some crimes (such as murder), or else it isn't much of a society in the first place. I don't know if outlawing abortion is too much government oversight.

>>135884885

btw if my opinion opposing yours makes you think my death would somehow be advantageous you're placing an awful lot of power in my words and beliefs

i'm just a stranger on 4chan shooting shit

if you're worried about me doing something like voting, there's no need for that, votes don't matter anyway

it's all just a pacification and division tool, those in power carry on much of the same agenda in order to maintain power and keep people weak... the only things voting ever effects are things that people are passionate about that ultimately don't matter when you look at the big picture

it's all just smoke and mirrors, you're distracted and you're where they need you to be

beliefs and ideologies don't matter at this point because we're all equally useless and controlled no matter what they are

worry about my death if people actually unite and accomplish something that changes that if you think my opinions matter

>>135879489
pro choicer here man.
more abortions, less niggers

>>135885283
>when the baby violates the NAP by growing beyond the amount of space you've allocated for it in your womb, so you pay a doctor to vivisect it and sell its limbs on the open market

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>>135879489
>always white baby

>>135879489

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIu7GanVRH8

www.badselfeater.com

Free abortions for non-Whites. Ban all abortions for Whites.

Problem solved.

Abortion after the first trimester is just messed up.

>>135885373
I have no real interest in killing you. I'm just trying to highlight how fucking insane naive utilitarianism is.

>>135883508
Here is a better idea to stop the crime by people who get abortions: instead of killing the innocent unborn child, kill anybody who wants an abortion. Problem of crime solved, with no defenceless children murdered.

>>135885283

Yeah, but she put that person in her body. Am I trespassing if you shove me onto your lawn?

>>135885142

i do care about other people, i have a lot of empathy, but so do other species

empathy isn't just something humans have and no other creature understands it...their brains create many of the same chemicals ours do and in some cases that even extends to oxytocin

i understand that as a human you're elevating your own species, that's natural

but human nature isn't one sided there's a duality there, and there's a darker side to it, most people if put in the right situation are capable of murder if necessary

it's also part of humanity, and you should be able to see that by just looking around at the world and turning on the news

we're not somehow special, we kill each other, we fight over territory etc, but yes we also have the capacity to care for and love each other as well...it's not one or the other, it's both

from a logical standpoint abortion is mutually beneficial to all parties statistically

the argument you're giving me that's against it is one loaded in emotion, feeling, and void of intellect... you're ignoring reality in favour of your emotions, and that's the very thing you think you're supposed to be capable of as a human isn't it?

i care about the quality of life for people overall, and i understand that sometimes that means things that don't sit well with everyone are going to happen

you can't turn a blind eye to reality and live in a utopia

>>135879489
Abortions keep the nigger population in check

>>135879489

I don't have a problem with abortion. Just like I don't have a problem putting down lawbreakers or letting useless unemployed/unemployable fuckers die if they won't or can't work. Morticians gotta eat too.

Human life isn't particularly precious. People are a renewable fucking resource, and we have about half again as many as we need, especially bottom-feeding minorities. Encourage them to off themselves, kill their fucking babies, get fixed, whatever.

You realize what banning abortion would mean?
It would be the fucking nigger apocolypse

You want to save babies lives, come up with a better type of birth control. Something that:
>doesn't require surgery
>doesn't fuck with female's hormones like the pill
>doesn't need to be taken every single day (nigs can't do this)

Come up with something like this for both sexes, then we can talk about banning abortion

>>135885339

again i wouldn't say "deserved" i don't use that word because it has connotations that are inaccurate to the sentiment i'm expressing

you can keep using it as a response, but when you do you're projecting underlying meaning that what i'm saying lacks and taking me at my word is much better

i would say it can be necessary, and it can be beneficial which is why i see it as an option

it's not up to me what's deserved, and i wouldn't say it was

i think saying deserved means it's earned, and by no means is it earned... but no one earns everything they get good or bad, life doesn't work that way

necessity isn't always deserved it's just necessary

>>135879706
but i didnt give permission for it to enter her eggs, violating the NAP

>>135885981
shit formatting, didn't read

>>135879489
>Hurrr, don't abort the baby

>But fuck that baby the moment he pops up from vagina, he is (((responsible for himself)))

Virtue signalling faggots need to be gassed.

>>135879489
Because pro life people think it's literally murder to end a fetus

Kind of hard to compromise on murder

>>135881662
only if the sex was against her will as well, imo.

>Im an independent woman and I can fuck who I want!
>That baby chose to be there, kill it!
>feminism

>>135885641

it's not actually insane to acknowledge reality and nature and do some things in a beneficial manner even if it's cold

you have to place your values on where the things that nurture people go, and my view on abortion doesn't extend towards everything else

perhaps you could describe this particular view in that manner, but that doesn't mean every issue is seen through the same lens

you can't judge everything with the same exact value system because the same value system isn't right for every occasion

>>135885656

well that's stupid, an unborn child serves no function whereas that woman might and could (in some cases) go on to have another child at a more favourable time or with a more favourable partner

>>135879489
ever notice how libs try to get real images of abortions hidden from the public because its "obscene" but then they brag about aborting ten thousand kids from their rotten wombs daily?????????????????

>>135886099
Then come up with a better type of birth control. Be an innovator, instead of spending your time micromanaging other's behavior

>>135886213
what

are

you

trying

to

say

I

can't

understand

you

>>135885740
Quite the contrary. I didn't want to go there, but there's a little something called the categorical imperative.

(The following imperative follows simply from the fact that, as intelligent beings, any action we undertake is moral if and only if it may be universalized to all intelligent beings.)

"Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."

Maxim: I will kill my baby (another human) because it will make me suffer
Universal law: Person A will kill Person B if Person B makes Person A suffer.
Contradiction: All intelligent beings would cease to exist, meaning no intelligent being could will that the maxim become universal law
Conclusion: The proposed maxim is immoral.

This argument has already been made before and we reached a suitable solution. Make them legal for everyone but white people.

>>135882279
This

>>135879489
If you dont want to have a baby don't have sex. Or use protection. There are consequences for actions.

>>135879706

It's not her egg, she gave it to him

>>135886099

society compromises on murder all of the time, wars, revolutions, the death penalty, there's degrees of murder in a court of law along with charges like manslaughter

there's also castle law, and legal killing in self defense

every day compromises on murder are made, because it's part of nature and that's what society has to deal with

>>135886213
No my friend, a baby can be trained to be a slave or be there for adoption. He can serve much more for the general good of the people without the mother that wants to kill him. Also, he can make more children as well, while the mother having an abortion is much less likely to have plentiful healthy children. Your logic is flawed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVBUjGWWo0U

Oh wow.

>>135883173
They do that anyways though. It's the white women who are getting the abortions en masse.

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>>135886457

>>135879489
>Shit talks both pro choice and pro life people
>Argues for pro choice
What did OP mean by this?

>>135886359

no such thing as objective morality and suffering is unavoidable, people cause suffering to others whether purposefully or unintentionally every day

sometimes killing is justified, and sometimes it's beneficial to everyone

killing a child while they have no nervous system or concept of life in the same manner we know it as adults isn't comparable

philosophical ideas are just opinions

>>135886600
Please note I also said he/she could be a slave.

>>135884515
This
Most people who get abortions are single mothers, finacially unstable, and or people who aren't mentally ready enough to care for children
You don't really see married couples who have their shit together getting abortions
We're eliminating the poor and criminal populations before they can be born

Abortion is a very good thing. Only low iq undesirable low quality people get abortions; and as we know, intelligence is passed down, not learned.

>>135884873
thank you based aussie

>abortions are like drugs. whether theyre legal or not, people will still find a way to get them. Let degenerates do what they want, and then just stay far, far away.

>but for god's sake, stop trying to claim you didn't know you could get pregnant from having sex, and absolve yourself of all sin because "its my body"
>shellfish shloots

>>135886457

that's not how it goes, usually children within that system go on to line jail cells and tax money and the welfare of citizens are both taken away from better causes to keep them alive throughout their lives

>>135886639
>no such thing as objective morality
>sometimes killing is justified
You're not making sense. What do "beneficial" and "justified" mean without morality?

>>135886893
>responding to a retarded redditposter
Why the fuck are you doing this

>>135879489
>is murdering the mentally sub-par really that bad for the society?
Well Germany's taking in a lot of low-IQ apes and they seem to be doing...Well I mean they haven't erupted in civil war.

>>135886742
That is exactly why we should euthanize the person asking for abortion. We replace a bad person from the society and start with a new child which will be statistically a bad person. Also an innocent child isn't killed for its parents wrongs while still removing the unwanted from our population.

>>135885283
this is so retarded its painful. how can someone see these two events as even remotely similar?

>>135879489
Because by killing an unborn(white) child you're ending the potential for someone to be great.

The child itself is innocent. Under any condition. It should not have it's life taken for any reason, be it rape or accident.

If you really don't want that child, then carry it and put it up for adoption. It might be miserable waiting for adoption, but it's better than no life at all.

The only exception is niggers are subhuman so I could care less about them.

>>135886973
Statistically less of a bad person*

>>135886410
woah, its like this strange concept of personal responsiblity

>>135886942
I'm doing an experiment to see how deep the conditioning goes for these redditposters.

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>>135879489
A death culture(cult) is a shitty culture. Personal responsibility needs to be stressed.

>>135879706
My sperm is inside of her, if she wanted my money after a DNA test for the kid, I could always just say, "No, it's not my sperm, it's hers because I gave it to her." Double standards as always

>>135879489
>is having abortions really that bad for the society?
I don't care. If the "society" chose to euthanase Finnish NEETs who browse /pol/ would you support this decision? Definitely, abortion is bad for aborted people, excludind extremely rare cases of highly deformed persons.

>>135879489
Abortion is unfortunately a necessary evil.
If it weren't for abortion, we would have twice as many dindus in America as we do now.

>>135879788
There's a fallacy for that

>>135887269
>excludind
excluding*

>>135886426
You're conflating negative and positive rights. The argument is whether:
>The fetus has a right not to be aborted, in which case the mother has a poor case to the positive right to abort
>The mother has a right not to have her body interfered with, in which case the fetus and its proxies have a poor case to positive rights to interfere
More specifically, it's whether or not the fetus can be considered its own legal entity- this debate has ramifications across the Law and ethics. E.g:
>If a woman's pregnancy is terminated against her will in a collision, does she have a claim to compensation?
>If we unequivocally assert the right of a newborn to live, and there is no solidly arguable fundamental difference between a newborn and an 8-month, 30-day fetus, how can the abortion be applicable in the one case and no the other where LTAs are allowed?
>Where LTA are disallowed, is the basis upon which the line between abortable and nonabortable fetuses soundly constructed?

>>135879489
most of the proponents of abortion would be very upset if someone said, just let me do with my family what I want

same reasoning here - the baby already feels pain and it's a human being. It needs protection.

>>135887317
I believe it's called "Correlation =/= Causation", but I may be mistaken
Besides, the finngol forgets that in lots of countries abortion is subsidised.

>>135879489
Just like the spartans thew away babies who were unfit to fight, i dont mind ending a life prematurely if it shows some kind of weakness that will hinder it later on. The value of life for life itself is overrated and more of a burden than it is worth.

>>135879489
Only babies allowed to be aborted are non-whites i.e. if the skin isn't a shade of brown, it lives. As an added measure, if they lie about the father, the baby gets executed at birth should it prove the be a coal baby

>>135882273
Rapers gonna rape, legalise that too?

It has been argued that the capacity for rape is either an adaptation or a byproduct of adaptive traits such as sexual desire and aggressiveness...

Also research in evolutionary biology and evolutionary psychology can help to elucidate the ultimate (evolutionary) causes (as opposed to primarily proximate causes) of rape by males in different species, including humans

>>135886893

there isn't objective morality, only subjective coloured through people's individual perspectives

what i shared with you were personal ideas and morals, and clearly you disagree with them while i accept them as part of nature and reality

the fact is the society and humans can't exist in a manner where things are beneficial to everyone, there will always be people who suffer for the benefit of others (deserved or not)

i can't remember the title or author, but have you ever read that story about a utopian world where everyone exists in a state of bliss, but deep within that one person suffers a tortured existence so that the bliss of all the others can be a reality

that's how things typically work, what a government is meant to do is keep things controlled in a manner where the most people benefit in society in spite of the fact that suffering can't be erased and sometimes is the price of the greater good

in the case of abortion, the emotional decision to protect the life of an unborn child doesn't yield the best results...sometimes more cold and calculated decisions do, and abortion is ultimately beneficial

>>135879489
the argument is not "what you should do with your body"

The argument is "when does it stop being your body", you retard

Yeah, I am all for abortion in the first few weeks of pregnancy
But at one point its a nearly fully formed human you are just straight up killing

>>135886266
yeah you're the ones needing to come up with a better type of birth control. You can't just murder people because you were out of money.

>>135886457
We need to revive the proper caste system that involves old-fashioned slavery

>>135887405

late term abortions are illegal due to the level of development of the fetus, which does make a difference

viable outside of the womb and with a nervous system is different

do i personally care if someone gets a late term abortion? honestly? no... can't say i do

however, that's why there's a difference in the laws between the two kinds of abortion

as for a wanted child, the difference is stated right there, the mother wants the child it's meant to be born and have all the rights of any other human and that intent is what makes it's life more valuable

the fetus has no rights, and there's no need to give it any, the rights belong to the mother

anyway... my point is you're looking at some rights in regard to killing as positive and you see others as negative, you make compromises on murder just like anyone else

>>135887621
like mr manhattan in watchmen

>>135885283
>hey come over and drink something with me :)
>>ahh nice afternoon. btw. hillary is a cunt
>wtf? I DONT WANT YOU LEAVE IMMEDEATELY!
>>ok later
>BANG BANG BANG

>>135887621
You're still missing something.
What does "benefit" mean without morality?
What does "better" mean?

Is morality so subjective that we can't even run through the dialectic on these words? If so, what's the point of doing/caring about anything?

>>135887649
Let me give you a thought experiment.
Somebody you know falls into a coma with 0 thoughts and feelings. He is guaranteed to wake up from the coma in 9 months and he slowly gains more and more brain activity and regains muscle through that time. Would you say it is ok to "abort" him while he has no brain activity and movement?

>>135882279
Just a few more years Europa

>>135882279
>>135886401
>tfw thanks to open borders this will soon actually be the case for the UK and Germany
Mashallah. Those feminists won't know what hit them.

>>135885092
up to birth

Wow it sure is easy to debate whose rights take precedence when only one party can speak on the issue.

How is killing a baby inside the womb any different than killing it once it is outside? Some of you claim that a baby in the womb has no conscience, but how do you define that? Does it have to be able to scream "I AM ALIVE" before you cede to acknowledging it's existence?

>>135879788
maybe they can decide to fucking use proper birth control, or get sterilization. I am tired of people weeping for parasites.

>>135888174
It's just irresponsible people who couldn't be arsed to use protection and would now rather murder the child than take responsibility.
And then don't even have the decency to admit that they'll flat out murder it but instead spin some bullshit about how it's not a real human yet.

>>135886639
Learn how law is constructed and maintained; the principles are philosophical in nature, namely:
>Non-contradiction
A principle and its application should not contradict, nor should any principle with any other, any application with any other, or any principle with any application
>Consistency
A principle must be consistently applied to be logically sound
>Burden of proof
The burden of proof or evidence should be on the passive side by default, which leads to things such as self defense and innocence until guilt is proven.
>So?
If we take your view on abortion, we have to apply it in all situations with the same or very similar components, such as newborns, the elderly, and infirm.

>>135887956

couldn't pay attention to the movie, never read the comic

i thought it was dr manhattan though

>>135888003

benefits aren't subject to morality necessarily, when i speak about benefits i'm talking about what yields the most productive and safe results for everyone involved

civilians often die in wars, completely innocent people in a bad place at a bad time, is that morally ok? subjective, but on a personal level i find it distasteful and think that casualties should be kept to a minimum... however whether or not the war itself is ultimately beneficial is a completely different consideration

"better" is based on statistics, statistically those children won't have happy lives, statistically they'll be a drain on taxes, statistically they grow up to line jail cells and commit preventable crimes that affect other citizens

is it really "better" to have a society where preventable problems are created for everyone by forcing women to give birth and then forcing everyone to provide subpar environments for the child over the longterm?

>>135884496
This meme is fucking dumb. It's called a paragraph you stupid little half-breed, and reddit didn't invent them.

You have to go back. To reddit.

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>bad for the society?
Stop right there kultural marxist scum.
Unless you have a commongood-ometer that argument is pure shit and could be (has been) used to justify anything any time.

>>135879489
Abortion is literally black genocide

Fuck you for supporting the genocide of my race you wh*te cumskin cunt.

>>135879489
Anyone that is againast abortion but hates niggers is a retarded faggot.

Abortion is the reason there aren't as many niggers as their could be. Its also the reason the crime rate has continuously dropped over the past 40 years.

>abortions = less niggers = less crime

fucking retarded faggots

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>>135885477
100/10 best post

>>135886749
>Only Low IQ
Evidence? Spics and Niggers can be dealt with with a eugenics program, leaving middle and upper class White women who get abortions.

>>135888473

different laws are constructed with different goals in mind, some of them are simply about power others aid in the process of division and pacification and so on

there's laws that allow surveillance and complete invasion of privacy, those in power benefit but in most cases the masses don't

there's no philosophical nature to it, it's about maintaining control in an environment where control could possibly be wrested from those in power by forces with greater numbers on their side... i suppose there's the philosophical ideas of maintaining power and control guiding them, but it's not the same as an abortion law

issues are not all the same and can't be judged using the same exact set of rules

when you lack flexibility in your ability to judge separate issues then you become ineffective overall...

my views on abortion can't be applied everywhere, however on the subject of the elderly i think in many cases euthanasia is less cruel than keeping them alive out of some twisted sense of morality

>>135888679
I'm mostly just annoyed by the double standard of most people defending pro choice.

>no, it is totally alright to kill my offspring because I really don't feel like having one right now, I'd rather get smashed in the club
>oy vey, how can you say we should just execute child rapists & murderers or close the border to asylum seekers? every life is precious and must be protected!

They just constantly switch between human life being untouchable and human life being so worthless that you can just throw it away if it doesn't currently fit into your life plans.
How is aborting a child that was diagnosed with genetic diseases acceptable but eugenics aren't?
There is zero consistencies in their views, yet they sit on the fucking highest horse you could possibly imagine.

>>135888483
I gotta broach the question.
Have you ever read ANY moral philosophy (moral philosophy that would be part of a philosophy degree, not Dawkins)?
Have you ever contemplated a moral system besides naive utilitarianism?
How old are you?

>>135879489
it breaks the nap so fuck off

>>135879489
Abortion should be compulsory for niggers

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>>135879489
this is terrible bait

>>135888115
>don't know what hit them
Most coal burners have a pretty good idea

If the individual being aborted is the one who gets to make the decision, okay, sure.

>>135879489
The pro-life/pro-choice debate is essentially a debate about what constitutes a life.

Because abortion is potential murder, there are many options outside of abortion for women, pregnancy is the woman's own fault 99.9% of the time(if you choose to have sex you take that risk), and because the father has parental rights I believe there's many reasons abortion is not necessary and in fact should be illegal.

The only time it is necessary that a woman have an abortion is when the baby threatens her life, and in this case it should be legal.

It being hard to have a kid is not a threat on her life, it is the woman being lazy. It is 'a bad time for a kid', you are just lazy. We hand out free shit to women with kids for fucks sake.

>>135888652
Don't blame white people. The white Christians that are absolutely hated by the Left are the same ones fighting to stop this murder of innocent children.

I personally believe abortion is one of the main, if not THE main reason blacks haven't been getting anywhere. It absolutely destroys the family unit. Why not sleep around with 20 women when they can just abort the baby fo' free down at the clinic.

God just thinking about this is like watching the Matrix and seeing all those people in the tubes. It's utterly disgusting.

>>135889250
>It being hard to have a kid is not a threat on her life, it is the woman being lazy. It is 'a bad time for a kid', you are just lazy.

They have an even lower opinion of human life than most of /pol/ does. /pol/ would be fine with undesirables just being undesirables somewhere else. These people just flat out kill them and don't give a shit.

>>135887621
So your argument boils down to
>yield the best results
>sometimes more cold and calculated decisions [do]
If you believe in results-based Law, would you support the genocide of all of Africa and most of Asia and South America, as well as anyone older than 60, and anyone with medical bills they cannot pay for by themselves? If so, we are down to might makes right, a system I'm not sure you would thrive or survive in for long. If not, why the inconsistent application?

>>135889250
>The only time it is necessary that a woman have an abortion is when the baby threatens her life, and in this case it should be legal.
Unironically this.

>>135880472
this

>>135879706
Then why don't I own my Windows? Cos It is proprietary code. Like my jizzum. You can install it on your hardware with my pink USB but I still own it.

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>>135880472
this is retarded
if we allow abortion then THERE WILL be whites who will want abortions because blacks are getting it
what are we then suppose to do in 90%+ white population countries
i hate america

>>135888992

i've read a lot of philosophy books and religious texts

none of my beliefs are based in things dawkins has said, he's a biologist not a philosopher so while i'd trust him on matters of biology i wouldn't necessarily put absolute faith in his philosophical beliefs... i'm not even an atheist

the reality is that philosophy is just opinions, people subscribe to schools of thought that they agree with because that's human nature; it offers no objective perspective because there isn't one

i believe that morals are subjective to individual interpretation, and while they exist in society as something changeable over time ultimately an individual is responsible for deciding what is and isn't right or worth while on their own...

that being said i do have a value system, and i do have a subjective morality i believe in and things i care about

just because you find something naive doesn't mean it's so, you're just assuming your perspective is correct the way most people do

while it's good to be sure of yourself and stand your ground, you should also be aware that you're not the authority on life as we know it... no one is

i'm 30, i'm not a child, i'm not someone who's never read any books (philosophical or otherwise) i'm just someone you don't agree with

people can receive the same level of education and still see a different side of things...

>>135888980

i think abortion should be legal and also think killing child rapists and murderers is acceptable, also for closed borders in times where it's unfavourable

>>135889573
okey ban white abortions

>>135889644
>i think abortion should be legal and also think killing child rapists and murderers is acceptable, also for closed borders in times where it's unfavourable

Then I'm perfectly fine with your stance on it.

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>>135886600
WHY!!!???????
There are way too many niggers already! Fucking Christ C.U.C.K.S are literally raising the throw away nigglet embryos!!

>>135888992
please respond.
I have to find out if I'm wasting my time.

>>135879706
I have no problem with this but there should be zero liability for the male donor. Woman need to chose men who want and will support the child without using the state.

>>135889250

it doesn't matter if it's life or not is the thing, abortion is still beneficial overall and should be legal

killing is sometimes justifiable and necessary, and in the case of abortion it does everyone a favour even the child who is likely to grow up in miserable conditions and end up leading a life of crime based on statistics

>>135883004
OH MY GOD...

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>>135889644
>i've read a lot of philosophy books
>the reality is that philosophy is just opinions, people subscribe to schools of thought that they agree with because that's human nature; it offers no objective perspective because there isn't one
Name 60.

>>135879788
Coat hanger infections are just natures way of sorting out the bad eggs. Deal with it.

>>135889644
>i've read a lot of philosophy books and religious texts
such as?
I really am having trouble believing you since your take on morality is so naive.
There are very smart people who take up your position, but they are usually able to give more sophisticated arguments when pressed, whereas you continue to fall back on some abstract notion of "better" (for what/whom?) to justify your position.

>>135883589
Interesting, I didn't know that.

>>135889449

i believe in result based law in some circumstances rather than others because again, not all situations are the same and can be judged by the same standard

you have to step back and look at the bigger picture

is genocide sometimes understandable? yeah

is everyone over 60 a burden? no

is killing someone who can't pay medical bills justifiable when a bigger issue is big pharmaceutical companies jacking up prices for things that cost far less to make than they do to buy? no, the issue there is the monopolies and the lack of proper affordable care, those people are what i would consider victims of a system stacked against them

an unborn child who's aborted i look at as a likely lost cause from start to finish and since abortions happen regardless of legal status it's safer and its benefits outweigh the distaste someone might have over killing...again killing of the young in unfavourable conditions is just part of nature, animals do it all the time and humans are just animals

that all being said, i'm failing to see how so many different things are all exactly the same to you

to me all of those issues are completely separate, so i'm failing to understand why you think it's all the same

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>>135879489
Abortion is about murdering a human being for convenience. If you're fine with that you should also be fine with murdering all the niggers because it's the same argument. Being pro abortion means you know that there is no god given value to humanity, that every human is only as valuable as the society sees it.

And once we accept that humans are not inherently valuable all the leftist BS will crumble down like a house of cards.

If the mother doesn't want it, and the human has to use the mother's bloodstream in order to develop to a stage where they are biologically independent from their mothers, what do you do? External womb technology will allow us to transfer an embryo from a human body to an artificial womb and could be the answer to appease both Christians and feminist, but of course, feminist hate the idea for some reason.

If I had a human being attached to me that depended on my diet in order to live and grow, and I personally did not value it and didn't want it, then I would cut it off if the government allowed me.

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>>135890250
>And once we accept that humans are not inherently valuable all the leftist BS will crumble down like a house of cards.
Wat?

>>135887953
>late term abortions are illegal due to the level of development of the fetus, which does make a difference
Roe v. Wade limited state regulations on abortion to the third trimester mainly due to health risks of the mother. Read the decision yourself, and ctrl+f:trimester
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/410/113/case.html
>viable outside of the womb
Even newborns, without outside support, will soon die of exposure, dehydration, or starvation. The only difference is the mode of provision. Instead of body temperature, it now requires a blanket. Instead of umbilical transmission of water and food, it now comes from bottles and jars.
>and with a nervous system is different
The zygote begins as a distinct self-replicating organism, containing DNA that not even the mother has. Not even tumors can claim this. A first trimester, fetus, a second trimester fetus, and a newborn all have distinct nervous systems from the mother. The only thing connecting the fetus to the mother at any point is the umbilical cord: "There are no nerves in the cord, so cutting it isn't painful for you or the baby."-NHS
>do i personally care if someone gets a late term abortion? honestly? no... can't say i do
Caring is distinct from the construction and enforcement of law. I don't "care" about murders that are happening right now, but hope that murder laws are properly constructed and properly enforced for proper societal maintenance.

>>135889680

fair enough

>>135889887

aurelius, plato, sartre, nietzsche, dostoyevsky, camus, aristotle, voltaire,machiavelli etc etc etc
i also enjoy a lot of buddhist philosophy, and again enjoy studying religious texts

just because you think my take on morality is naive doesn't mean that it actually, you're over inflating your own opinion due to your ego

you're operating from a stance where you think you're objectively right, so me going against your beliefs comes with you assuming i must be stupid

that's arrogant at best, but it doesn't make you right

i don't think providing statistics about crime and cost overall is really all that abstract, but ok

you told me i was operating from an emotional standpoint while i pointed to statistics, and you've given no real reason other than emotional ones as to why abortion is wrong

it seems like you have a double standard for what you expect from others and what you actually bring to the table... just saying

>>135879489

its murder

>>135879706
Just remember that when you go to bank in the near future.

>>135890779
>etc etc etc
the list goes on...

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>>135890486
I like that Britain isn't included in this, as we did nothing wrong

>>135890588

does the development of the fetus affect the mother's health? pretty sure it does, the more developed the more it can affect the mother and the more it's affected

being capable of self replicating doesn't mean all of those cells have developed functions, they develop over time and form a nervous system but the nervous system isn't there from the beginning

i never said caring wasn't distinct from law enforcement obviously that's the case seeing as i don't necessarily care about or for all laws

i was just pointing out my own personal moral stance on late term abortions

anyway i'm failing to see a point? how does any of this make abortion not ok exactly?

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A reminder that Abortion is modern day Moloch sacrifice.

>>135879489
>is infanticide really that bad for the society?

>>135890961

well i fail to see a point in listing every book i've ever read as if it proves a point, philosophers are just people who wrote their subjective opinions down and while some can pose interesting ideas and questions they ultimately lack objective authority

inflating the importance of reading their works is just a tool to seem more intellectual, but ultimately it means very little

my stance on abortion is based on statistics and facts rather than just personal morality, from a personal morality standpoint i generally lean towards pro-life...but that's not actually a viewpoint that makes sense large scale, it's just a knee jerk emotional reaction and those have no place in the debate about abortion

>>135879489
>is murder really that bad for the society
fuck off.

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>>135890779
>aurelius, plato, sartre, nietzsche, dostoyevsky, camus, aristotle, voltaire,machiavelli etc etc etc
>i also enjoy a lot of buddhist philosophy, and again enjoy studying religious texts
>>>"philosophy is just opinions"
Go back to watching new-age videos on youtube kiddo. Your LARPing is transparent.

>>135880472
/pol/ only has half the picture when it comes to race and abortions. Both whites and blacks are each about 30% of abortions.

An even number is not an even trade to me.

>>135879489
Its degenerate. An advanced society wouldnt perform millions of abortions a year

>>135891291
>>135891487

short answer: no and in the case of abortion statistics say society benefits as a whole

>>135890486
Wat what?

Look. There's two arguments for protecting life the one of the atheist is
>I like living so I'll pretend to like other people living so that they'll in turn pretend to like me living
The god argument is
>Even though we hate each other human life is sacred

Which one has been more effective?

Your own pic answers it

>>135882273
>women will get them anyway it just makes them safer

Why do we want it to be safer? Why don't I want these women to kill themselves or permanently sustain damage for killing or attempting to kill their child?

>>135887953
>however, that's why there's a difference in the laws between the two kinds of abortion
I already went through this: that's not the reason outlined in Roe.
>as for a wanted child, the difference is stated right there, the mother wants the child it's meant to be born and have all the rights of any other human and that intent is what makes it's life more valuable
Two issues:
>1
How can the plaintiff prove she wanted the child? She could very well be lying, would have terminated the pregnancy anyway, and is using this as a ploy to attain compensation.
>2
Even if it can be 100% proven that she wanted the child to come to term, how would that be legally admissible, or how would that be treated any differently from the loss of children that mothers did not want to come to term (i.e. abortion), when the mother can't act as a proxy for the fetus as if it were her child, with independent rights, since the legal acceptance of abortion itself invalidates said rights, and when the mother can't act as a property owner either, since her argument would amount to the loss of potential value of the property, and children are not legally considered property? Your own worldview creates this strange limbo where courts cannot operate in a logical manner.
>3
Your argument is that if "the mother wants it/external intent for thriving" makes the fetus' life more valuable. This would apply to the court's entire jurisdiction. Would you apply that to those mothers that wish to bring Microcephalic children to term, even though nothing at any time, throughout its life, would make the child more valuable? If you were to buy a 2005 Maxima from me, and I wanted $1m for it, would you believe that it held that value because of my feelings?

>>135879489
I'm against my expropriated tax monies covering some whore's ass
don't give a fuck otherwise, after all those fucktards who decide to abort are probably better off doing so

>>135883125
It didn't take.

>>135883338
Women do not have a right to abortion

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>>135882279
OH MY. 10/10

>>135891507

i don't watch new age videos on youtube, while i have studied the occult it hasn't been through videos and isn't exactly "new age"

philosophy is just opinions and food for thought, that's why all philosophers don't agree with each other and often express different viewpoints

people agree or disagree with all different philosophers, in spite of them all having enough merit for their ideas and works to survive over time

i'm not larping, and i'm not a child, you just don't like what i'm saying and you're resorting to attacking me as a person rather than actually sticking to talking about abortion... stay on the subject instead of resorting to petty bullshit, unless you don't actually have anything worthwhile to say about the topic

>>135883508
>people are just animals
Stop living in civilization if you think we are just animals and should act like such

The uniqueness of the human animal is that we strive to be above an animal. All we have done is that, rise above nature

Most people who get abortions would be terrible parents and would most likely raise terrible children. So from a eugenics viewpoint it is a good thing.

The proper path is stop people from being so shitty they want abortions in the first place. Keep abortion legal but make being a degenerate slut shameful.

>>135890147
>appeal to nature
Not an argument

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>>135890250
>If you're fine with that you should also be fine with murdering all the niggers because it's the same argument.
In an lawless anarchist society, I would kill all my enemies if it were the best solution to attaining my self interest.
>Being pro abortion means you know that there is no god given value to humanity, that every human is only as valuable as the society sees it.
True. Humans are subjectively valuable.

>>135883508
Heres a little secret

Women get abortions regardless of legality. The difference is theyre more likely to die doing it, and as a society we dont openly condone child murder.

So there, now you dont need to worry about those poor kids (who even born into shitty conditions probably would still be glad to be alive, most of us are not suicidal), and those shitty mothers are taken out as well!

>>135891687

again, what do all of these unrelated things have to do with whether or not abortion should be legal at all and whether or not it's beneficial (statistically) for society when they are?

you're going into a bunch of other shit that's a separate issue

the reason outlined in the court case is about the mother's health? the mother's health is directly related to the development of the fetus, as it becomes more developed the woman is more affected

as for the other shit? sure a woman could lie in court, so?

when it's an act of violence against mother that removes the fetus it becomes a different topic, and yes morality and laws do change to accommodate different circumstances...if they didn't that would be senseless

would you please provide an actual argument against the statistics being beneficial and tell me why without putting emotions on it abortion is wrong?

We should fund abortions in any country with a population density over 100 / km^2.

>>135887953
>the fetus has no rights, and there's no need to give it any, the rights belong to the mother
Begging the question. You are stating that as if it is an argument toward your position, but that is the very position the validity of which we are arguing for/against.
>anyway... my point is you're looking at some rights in regard to killing as positive and you see others as negative, you make compromises on murder just like anyone else
Compromises occur mainly in balancing tests. Most homicides are pretty clear cut, and very well fall within a negative/positive rights view. If you reasonably believe that another is trying to kill you, has the capability to kill you, and will do so imminently, then that is an argument of use of force against you, and if you use lethal force against the other, you probably will not face a murder/manslaughter conviction. This is not a "compromise". It's a matter of rights being infringed/protected.

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>>135879489
I like abortions because lots of black women and women who are going to not have white children usually go to abortion clinics

>>135892031
It's weird how the left doesn't see that what they're doing is going to get them killed. They're the most worthless shits in our societies.

It's almost like they should be the ones protecting the most innocent because why the fuck would anyone bother protecting the lefties after it's been established that human life is indeed not sacred.

>>135879489
How is this argument even real? Abortion is murder.
It shouldn't be in the hands of an irresponsible woman to decide something profoundly manifold and potentially productive as the life of someone else.

>>135884387
That isn't hypocrisy you fool, it's the recognition of other races as lesser, subhumans.

It isnt all other races either, just the awful ones like niggers and dark-spics. Really just niggers, theyre worse than all others by a mile long difference.

>>135884515
Wrong. When abortions are legal, only the child is killed. When illegal, the women do it themselves, killing themselves and the kid.

Abortion being illegal is a bigger gain for society.

The reason people are pro-life and anti-welfare is because mot poor people arent suicidal, you dumb twat
It doesnt matter how much the baby's life might suck, because many of us have sucky, shitty lives. Most of us are still glad to be alive, and would fight to remain so.

It is up to the child to later determine if their circumstances are worth it. Not only that, but by letting the kid live you actually give them a chance to fix their probably shitty situation, as many others have.

Many of us on /pol/ came from terrible households, raised by single mothers, and are still pretty decent folk.

Every white baby saved is a good thing. Every woman that would die alongside her baby trying to get an illegal abortion is a good thing.

>>135891976

unfortunately i can't just up and leave civilization due to the way power is distributed throughout the world... if it were possible however i would live in the woods and only bother with people when i felt like it and not deal with their laws or bullshit

however, that's not how reality works so there goes that dream huh?

whether you strive to be above being an animal or not doesn't change that you are one... it's just a nice sentiment with no actual value on any objective level

people can't help but act in accordance with their own nature, and that's part of being an animal

>>135891996

wasn't my only point, i've stated many times that crime statistics are better when abortion is legal as well

>>135892161

i know women will do that, i've said it multiple times, however plenty won't but would if it were legal so there's the thing there

anyway, you don't openly condone that however many people do and many states and countries recognize it...so you're wrong about that

murder is sometimes necessary and justifiable and whether that makes people feel bad or not it doesn't change it

>>135885949
Why dont we just sterilize niggers

>>135892323

more people die due to warfare or terrorist acts rather than just murders, and those fall in a grey area

i don't see abortion as an issue that's anything other than clear cut, it's beneficial to everyone involved and there's no point in pretending it isn't...

is it murder? sure, but so?

you're the one arguing that point btw, i was just saying that there's literally no reason to give a fetus the same rights as an adult just like children do not have the same rights as adults

>>135886063
I cannot understand this argument at all

Yes, we want the kid to be born even if his life is utter shit because people can raise themselves from shit, and because even in shit most people are happy to live.
No, we wont take care of the kid, because you have a right to not be murdered, not to be paid for by everyone, and because living in a 1st world nation if youre the poorest fuck to ever be poor, youre still not going to die (unless youre retarded too or victim of chance)

It isn't cruel to have the baby be born and the not take care of it ourselves, because life has ALWAYS been utter shit for many people, it has always been hard. It is the easiest it has ever been. Most of us are glad to be alive despite it. Let the kid kill himself if its too much.

>>135892597
>it's the recognition of other races as lesser, subhumans.
No one is going to take you seriously with this argument. If you unironically believe in generalizing every individual of a racial group to unproductive non-human then you're an ideologically-ridden retard who took memes too seriously.

>>135892672
This guy knows whats up. Honestly I think we could convince most black to sterilize themselves with some clever propaganda. The smart ones of course wouldn't fall for it but those who are just going to leave the mother anyway could be convinced to take the needle.

>>135879489

That pic is very misleading, the amount of women who have abortions at that stage is less than 2% (closer to 1% I believe), and those that do are doing so because having the baby would result in the baby's death, the mother's death, or both.

Though keeping all the southern trumpcucks around isn't the worst thing, they are basically fueling a mexico-tier cheap labor force that yankees will be able to outsource to.

This is a slide thread.

sage in all fields

>>135889743
No. We are a white, western society with our big white fucking brains. We are not chimps or poos or soulless chinks. We are the empathetic and reasoning race.

We care about our children.
Logically, having a society which is fine with abortion has ramifications for our morals and views that are unacceptable. We cannot at the same time have a society of women who love their children and will raise them properly, and a society where women think killing their unborn child is acceptable.

Just because niggers live here doesnt mean we need to throw away the founding stones of society (respect for the family). We should not them lessen us.

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>>135886044
Nice one anon

>>135888008
Thats the difference, he already is a developed person, its not that there is no brain activity, there is no brain. Its like arguing that masturbation is murder because if that sperm were to impregnate a woman it would after 9 months become a child.

>>135888483
I know you probably think you are arguing in a logical manner because you break your points down into paragraphs, but you do not get to the natural conclusion of each point.
>You argue that law should be constructed and enforced based on what is "better"
>"better" is based on statistics pursuant to the living of happy lives, use of public funds, and potential harm done to others (multiple people) by the one
>i.e. Happiness, efficiency and minimization of harm are better to you, and what is better for multiple people at the expense of one is better to uou
>Thus you argue that law should be constructed and enforced based on happiness, efficiency, and minimization of harm, and at that only in the aggregate if it conflicts with the individual
So where else do you apply these principles? Antinatalism? Killing everyone below 100 IQ? Gassing all prisoners?
Genociding Africans? Any one of those proposals relies on the same principles you outlined. If not, were your list of principles not exhaustive and in need of additions and caveats, in need of amendment, or in need of removal?
>is it really "better" to have a society where preventable problems are created for everyone by forcing women to give birth and then forcing everyone to provide subpar environments for the child over the longterm?
The argument can be transplanted to an infinite number of scenarios.
>is it really "better" to have a society where preventable problems are created for everyone by forcing [A] to [provide resources to] [B] and then forcing everyone to provide subpar environments for the [B] over the longterm?
This very same argument can apply if we assume
>A=Whites and East Asians
>B=Most Africans, South Americans, and South Asians
Thus, would you agree that genocide is a good thing? If not, then your argument is not universally applicable. If so, then you have to accept that you may be killed in a genocide of undesirables of such a system.

>>135879489
>dumb bitch makes a mistake and gets pregnant
>wants to kill the child to reconcile her mistake

This helps perpetuate slaggish behavior

>>135892511
For liberals it's all about muh feels and moral bullshit. (Conservatives are the same)
>>135893107
Once a male birth control that temporarily sterilizes you is invented, it will probably be passed out for free in ghettos and become really popular with blacks. Honestly, I think most black males would love a vasectomy if it weren't for the surgical process.

>>135893427

people aren't a collective, morality varies even in people of one ethnicity not to mention america isn't a white nation

it was taken over by white people, and many people of other races now live here you're clinging to a world you never actually lived in when you call it a white country

anyway, empathy doesn't mean being unable to recognize situations where it has no place

you can feel empathetic and know that your feelings don't matter in a given situation...

again, on a personal level i don't care for abortion, but when you move to a larger scale it becomes clear why it should be legal

also i'm aware that my personal feelings don't affect reality, and part of reality is that sometimes murder is justifiable and necessary... in the case of abortion it can often be both

many white countries and white people have legal abortions btw, and not all members of any given race are created equally

even in ancient rome there were abortions because that kind of thing has always been something some people do, it's just part of humanity... whether you like or want to accept it is irrelevant

>>135893427
>No. We are a white, western society with our big white fucking brains. We are not chimps or poos or soulless chinks. We are the empathetic and reasoning race.
>We care about our children.
>Logically, having a society which is fine with abortion has ramifications for our morals and views that are unacceptable. We cannot at the same time have a society of women who love their children and will raise them properly, and a society where women think killing their unborn child is acceptable.
>Just because niggers live here doesnt mean we need to throw away the founding stones of society (respect for the family). We should not them lessen us.

^This

>>135891525
Well if both are about 30% of total abortions, but nignogs are only 13% of the US population, nigs are definitely fucking themselves over more.

>>135894137
>but when you move to a larger scale it becomes clear why it should be legal
How so? It's not like abortions that save a mother's life is the same as an elective one, so you can allow the former and not the latter

>>135894137
What does it matter if it's been a part of history? This is a moral argument over whether it *should* happen.

>>135893729

technically i said laws should be constructed and enforced based on many different factors completely dependent upon the law itself and the subject matter

you're the one saying different and ignoring things i've said multiple times

better can be based on statistics, and is in this case

yes what i said can be used to justify many things, however, i'm not talking about those things so you adding them on is of your own volition and has nothing to do with any of what i said

yes in some cases efficiency and better conditions overall make things justifiable, i feel that way about abortion and in other cases i don't because i can judge individual issues as individual issues and you can't seem to

just because an argument can be applied to other topics doesn't mean you should when only one topic is being discussed, what you do then is run off on an unrelated tangent and you may as well stop, cry, and call me hitler and shitlord at this point

i think genocide sometimes is a necessary reality when you're considering warfare and other issues

i'm aware that i could be killed by people who find me undesirable, that's a reality for everyone

i've seen the possibility up close when 9/11 happened, something i had nothing to do with hit close to home

the neighborhood i grew up in looked like a post apocalyptic wasteland covered in debris

did i like it? no, it wasn't for causes i find personally acceptable

do i see that it's reality and that others would disagree? sure

the nature of and means of achieving power isn't always palatable, but the results are what they are and to a certain point you have to accept them as reality whether it sits well or not

>>135894768

statistically when abortion is illegal the crime rate goes up, the quality of life for the child is ultimately shit and a drain on tax payers who could be benefiting from a better allocation of funds, illegal abortions happen anyway etc

that's why it's clear that whether or not i care for it, it's a necessary and justifiable reason to allow murder

>>135894816

my point was that it's just human nature and you can see that both in the past and present and it's likely to continue in the future

personal ideas of whether it "should" or "shouldn't" are largely based on emotion and have no bearing on the reality that it will regardless

because it will regardless, and is beneficial to everyone statistically there's no reason for it to be illegal

on top of that, the government shouldn't have that level of power over individuals

there's no pro-life argument that extends beyond subjective philosophy, morals, spiritual views, and feelings

Talking with abortionists is like talking with slavers. Its just a waste of time. Abortion is on the same moral lever as slavery.

>>135893427
Morality is a spook

>>135895496
>Morality is a spook
You are satanist

>>135891085
>does the development of the fetus affect the mother's health? pretty sure it does, the more developed the more it can affect the mother and the more it's affected
The main argument from the amici to Roe was that larger (third trimester) fetuses are more difficult to remove, thus more dangerous to the mother, and the final decision that resulted ruled that states can regulate third trimester abortions. It has nothing to do with nervous system development in the third trimester which you tried arguing before.
>being capable of self replicating doesn't mean all of those cells have developed functions
Its DNA- half from the mother, and half from the father- demonstrate that it is a distinct life form from the mother. Its replication demonstrates that its expected progression, unimpeded, is that of growth. The distinctness is the basis of my argument for its individual rights including right to life, and its growth is the basis for my argument that anything which impede that (we already use projected revenues in common law decisions for divorces, wrongful deaths, and suspect terminations of employment, which gives it precedent). By contrast, under your system, the mother would not have a logical claim to compensation for involuntary termination of her pregnancy, as I noted before
>they develop over time and form a nervous system but the nervous system isn't there from the beginning
The initial nonexistence of a nervous system doesn't negate the above two points
>i never said caring wasn't distinct from law enforcement obviously that's the case seeing as i don't necessarily care about or for all laws
You mentioned that caring gave value to the fetus, and thus implied it should affect the decision for compensation

>>135895407

slavery isn't necessarily wrong, if you enslave prisoners is it wrong or just beneficial to society? i mean really, why just have them rot in cells and be useless when you can use them to achieve more

many advanced societies did well because of slavery, and really in america the ways things are run due to big business and such it's a lot like the ancient roman version of slavery

slaves were given wages, they could buy freedom, it was unlikely but they could, and things ran smoothly for a while on that system that's why it works and large corporations employ it

we just give shit a different name and pretend it's different

>>135891085
>i was just pointing out my own personal moral stance on late term abortions
No, you are coming to a stance that you want to be universally applied in law. It's like saying I am pointing out my personal stance on tax rates- it's not like choosing a flavor of ice cream to eat, it's proposing what others should follow.
>anyway i'm failing to see a point? how does any of this make abortion not ok exactly?
We are working from two very different ethical frameworks, so I don't know how we can come to a common view of "ok". You seem to be a Utilitarian, which runs into its own inconsistencies.

>>135879489
>> you created a human child
>> you vacuumed it out of your pussy with a shop vac

Honestly more abortion doctors need to be murdered and more abortion clinics need to be bombed

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>>135895736
>slavery isn't necessarily wrong, if you enslave prisoners is it wrong or just beneficial to society? i mean really, why just have them rot in cells and be useless when you can use them to achieve more
>many advanced societies did well because of slavery, and really in america the ways things are run due to big business and such it's a lot like the ancient roman version of slavery
>slaves were given wages, they could buy freedom, it was unlikely but they could, and things ran smoothly for a while on that system that's why it works and large corporations employ it
>we just give shit a different name and pretend it's different

Now this is what im talking about. There is no point even in discussing such outlandish claims. For people like you there is only one solution. A final one.

>>135895674

what i said about the nervous system was a personal issue i had with it and one many other people do

i'm aware that it's a distinct life form, and i understand that it's a life, not arguing that

i'm pointing out that abortion and violence against a pregnant woman are two different things and shouldn't be judged by the same standard

my point is that just because a clump of cells can replicate and become something, doesn't mean that it is in its current state... cells that will form a brain aren't a brain until they are one

caring gives value to the fetus as far as the mother carrying it is concerned, and if a forcible act of violence occurs and terminates that life then it's not the same as an abortion and often causes a good deal of mental as well as physical distress... an abortion on the other hand is a choice and there's a distinction

>>135895312
>statistically when abortion is illegal the crime rate goes up, the quality of life for the child is ultimately shit and a drain on tax payers who could be benefiting from a better allocation of funds, illegal abortions happen anyway etc
How do you even begin establishing a relationship between abortions and crime rate? I'm calling bullshit until I see hard stats. Just look at my country
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/884205/pnp-murder-homicide-other-crimes-decreased-under-duterte-admin
Abortion is still illegal but our president decided to be tough on drug dealers. Did we suddenly decide to legalize abortion?

>>135895312
Again, it doesn't matter if that's the way history has been. Your philosophy would also justify war, genocide, and rape. This passive utilitarianism of yours is a moral void that can easily maximize human suffering.

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>>135895587
and you're retarded

>>135879489
Abortion is good for society.
Abortion is also clearly institutionally allowed murder.
Do you want an effecient society or a moral society?

>>135881662
Interesting to note that the majority of people in favor of abortion are also against guns as they kill people.

>>135879489
As long as our taxes are paying for it, we should get to decide if and how its performed.

>>135896251
And you are a fucking kike

>>135879489
I don't want to pay for your abortion. Period.
That's the only thing that matters. Stop oppressing me and stealing my money, and I'll stop wanting to murder you and your family.

>>135895758

i'm not completely utilitarian, you're judging me as such because of my view on one subject

late term abortions aren't done, and have nothing to do with this topic, not really... they're just a tool you're using because they're less palatable to people than destroying a clump of cells

however, when you're talking to someone who sees those cells as life and says it's ok to murder them, it's a little different

>>135896021

that's the truth, you really see something wrong with people like convicted pedophiles doing slave labor to benefit people as a whole?

i don't understand that logic, and i don't see how it's wrong

do you feel for the people on probation cleaning the sides of highways for free too? do you want to fight for their rights? that's slave labor isn't it?

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>>135896140
>utilitarianism
also a spook

>>135879489
IT KILLS FUCKING BABIES! THAT IS ONE OF THE WORST THINGS YOU COULD DO!

>>135879489
The nig population would explode along with welfare without abortions

>>135892196
>again, what do all of these unrelated things
Not unrelated. If the Law took your view on abortion, which it partially does, it would lead to Judiciary consequences, which I wanted you to answer for.
> have to do with whether or not abortion should be legal at all
Judiciary consequences of a proposed law or set of laws matter, since we are talking about things as basic as who is the aggrieved party, who is the adverse party, what constitutes a grievance, and who may lay claim to rights and rights violations.
>and whether or not it's beneficial (statistically) for society when they are?
Because if we argue that the betterment of society is to be done for via construction and enforcementof law based on statistical data relating to aggregate happiness, efficiency of resource employment, and minimization of harm among groups, then that opens the door to an infinite number of things that can apply under those standards, from Antinatalism, to genocide, to stormtroopers busting down your door and taking your stuff to use for better things, which you also have to answer for.
>you're going into a bunch of other shit that's a separate issue
Stated above: no.
>the reason outlined in the court case is about the mother's health? the mother's health is directly related to the development of the fetus, as it becomes more developed the woman is more affected
That was a counterargument to your argument that third trimester abortions are restricted due to lack of fetal nervous independence before that point.

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>>135880509

>>135896126

personally i think drugs should all be legal and knowledge would fix that

of course crime statistics decrease when you get rid of a group of criminals

i've watched documentaries on the statistics about abortion and have read articles, however i don't save them since the information is freely available to anyone who seeks it

>>135896140

wars and genocide can be justifiable, it doesn't sound nice but it's true

revolutions are necessary sometimes as well, violence isn't always a bad thing and it's completely necessary and right sometimes

whereas rape is never justifiable in my opinion, because there's no actual reason to do that

having a bleeding heart can also maximize human suffering when it makes someone unable to make tough calls that can result in beneficial change... you can call me morally void, but that's not true, we're talking about a narrow range of subjects

>>135896609
Here's a take - murdering society-contributing adults with skills that took their lifetime to learn is way worse than murdering babies/children.

>>135879489
What if I told you "it is"? Would you change your opinion?

>>135896474
>i don't understand that logic, and i don't see how it's wrong

You don't understand because you are fucking stupid. A convict is not a slave.

The slave obeys. The slave subjugates his will to that of an other or others. The slave is never under duress -- that is the prisoner. The prisoner makes no pretension of submission. From the outside the two may be indistinguishable -- but they are totally different -- opposites. The slave is a slave in mind, the prisoner is always really free.

Go fucking google it you twerp

>>135896331

i'm pro gun, i think the second amendment is actually beautiful when you look at it's original purpose

i think civilians should all own guns and know how to use them as part of a checks and balance system against the possibility of a corrupt government system that preys on them

i think it's important that people accept a level of responsibility to maintain certain ideals, and know that sometimes that price is violence...

you're just thinking about a particularly vocal group of people

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Haven't you fucks ever played an RTS? Why would you sacrifice population limit for happiness? You can just build more parks or whatever.

>>135885043
Appeal to nature fallacy, one throughout human history we have done things increasingly unnatural, to say that killing an innocent child is supported by animals nature is true, but to do that is not human nature, what you want is to have a regression on what makes us different from animals

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>>135885043
Then kill yourself, this world would be a better place. Less resources consumed, less contamination, less retards.

The issue of abortion is as simple as saying it is a human being or not. If you say it isn't, you go against science and in the case of my country, the constitution, since it declares that we are Catholic, so the child has inherent value and of course a soul.

If you admit that the cygot is human, then all the list of human rights apply, no questions asked, end of discussion. If you are proposing to literally kill babies, you are a psycopath that deserves to be locked up, or better yet killed, by your logic.

Science against abortion:

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

I assume you are not christian but I'll leave verses against abortion:

For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb… Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be.
-Psalm 139:13, 16

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
-Jeremiah 1:5

>>135889164
underrated post

>>135896692

well this is going nowhere, tell me exactly why it is you think abortion is wrong like i've been asking you to

you're just using a lot of words that have no real purpose, you're talking like a jew

>>135896833
>i've watched documentaries on the statistics about abortion and have read articles, however i don't save them since the information is freely available to anyone who seeks it
How convenient. Plenty of words just to say "google it". Unfortunately for you, I did:
https://www.nrlc.org/archive/news/2001/NRL06/randylaura.html

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Pro-Tip. If the soulless grouping of cells in a woman's uterus is so important, then you should really stop masturbating. You are killing thousands of babies every time!

>>135892196
>as for the other shit? sure a woman could lie in court, so?
We were arguing over the rights of the fetus. You claimed that rights, or law in general, should be constructed around value- both value to the mother, and value to society at large. You argued that greater value to the mother implied greater rights to the fetus, and thus greater compensation for its termination. You argued that a lesser value to society (potential to not thrive, and to cause harm to others) implied lesser rights to the fetus, and thus lesser compensation for its termination. I pointed out that in your proposed system, in such cases, there would be a philosophical, and thus legal, limbo in which courts cannot logically operate. I pointed out the ability of a women to lie about both her care for the child, and the child's potential to society, as an example of this.
>when it's an act of violence against mother that removes the fetus it becomes a different topic
How? In both situations, the fetus was removed. In one, it can be proven that it was removed voluntarily, and under your proposed system, it wouldn't matter since the fetus doesn't have any inherent rights (only a vague value to the mother and value to society, which are impossible to prove in court in individual cases, and put the burden of proof on the fetus and the fetus' proxies, making it the adverse party, not the aggrieved.) In the other it can be difficult to prove if it the fetus was removed against the mother's wishes, since we don't know if she planned to terminate anyway. It can be impossible to prove that the fetus had any emotional connection from the mother, since she could lie. And even if it is possible to prove the specific potential value of that specific fetus, that would be applying property law to children, and implying some (high IQ perhaps) fetuses be forced to come to term.

>>135879489
There are people who want to restrict your right to who certain inanimate objects, why would you be so surprised there are people that want to force people to give birth against their will?

>>135896833
>wars and genocide can be justifiable,
Is there ever a case in which wars and genocide minimized human suffering? Can you claim to understand the context and reactions of these actions enough to know it will minimize human suffering or know it has?
>rape is never justifiable in my opinion
The spreading of genes for some ulterior purpose you could say.
>when it makes someone unable to make tough calls that can result in beneficial change
When we're talking of genocide, war or any kind of mass murder or infringement what can determine that it's what's beneficial or what the result can be called the most beneficial? Most of these actions in history I don't believe have truly been motivated by a belief of human benefit anyway - to say that anyone has a right to carry this out is putting a huge amount of confidence in that person to know what is beneficial.

>>135897011

do you feel bad for minimum wage workers then? they're the equivalent of roman style slavery

nit picking, but don't you have to be imprisoned to be considered a convict? someone on probation or doing community service isn't jailed

>>135897011

the only place anyone is free is in their own mind btw

>>135897900
>what can determine that it's what's beneficial or what the result can be called the most beneficial
*what can determine that it's what's beneficial or that the result

>>135883589
>comments are disabled for this video

neck yourself queer

>>135879706
Really makes me think

>>135897124

historical accounts of abortion prove your statement false, it's completely within human nature to kill unborn children and history proves that

it's not a regression it's just a continuation of things people have been doing for a very long time because they're within our nature

people seek to elevate themselves over other life forms, but that's not the reality of the what humans are

>>135879489
It's called responsibility dipshit, kids aren't born through magic.
If you've fucked up then own up to your mistake, you shouldn't kill someone else to solve YOUR fucking problem.
Abortion is done due to personal convenience 99% of the times, that's a disgusting practice and should be banned unless it's necessary.

Murder is only a negative thing if you value the person being killed. If you hate the person being killed, then murder is a positive thing.

>>135897928
>do you feel bad for minimum wage workers then? they're the equivalent of roman style slavery
I was unaware that people who willingly enter a contract to work a minimum wage job became property and had less rights than a normal citizen

>>135898303
>historical accounts of abortion prove your statement false, it's completely within human nature to kill unborn children and history proves that

Killing babies is evil, accept it and realize you are a degenerate

>>135897200

all in good time, suicide is one of the best choices of death in my opinion (though it is completely unacceptable in abrahamic faiths like catholicism...i was raised catholic btw since you brought up catholicism like it should an authority on anything; it absolutely shouldn't)

sure it's a human, but there are situations where murder of other humans is justifiable and legal because it happens and there's different ways to judge different situations

i'm far from being a psychopath, since i'm capable of empathy and feel it to a great deal for many people; however basing laws on empathy alone is senseless and not the way to run anything

feelings based logic is senseless

i've read the bible, i don't need quotes from it i saw plenty in catholic school

you can't use a book full of religious philosophy with no basis in fact to prove a point on any objective level, so no matter how many bible quotes you throw at me they'll all be equally shit as far as i'm concerned

>>135889555
I wonder if IP laws can apply to dna

>>135898840
Kill yourself jew

>>135899034
Go worship Muhammad, Abraham and Jesus, you primitive man.

>>135892196
>would you please provide an actual argument against the statistics
Begging the question.You are asking me to argue a point utilizing a framework I am arguing against,assuming said framework is valid.Namely,we are arguing over your framework/proposition that (derived from your own words):
The betterment of society is to be done for via construction and enforcement of law based on statistical data relating to aggregate happiness, efficiency of resource employment, and minimization of harm, among groups[and the implied corollary that the aforementioned needs of the many outweigh those of the few where they conflict).
>being beneficial
As for a statistical case(which is not one I propose),it's actually pretty simple:look at IQ bell curves and aggregate propensity for criminal behavior among various populations.Those with high IQ+lower propensity toward criminality,when they have abortions or no children,increase the proportion of stupidity and crime. Those with low IQ+higher propensity toward criminality, when they are denied abortions or have many children, decrease the proportion of those with intelligence and increase crime. Thus, abortion and birth control must be denied for high-IQ populations, whereas eugenics (hard or voluntary) must be applied for low-IQ populations. This is also valid within the above proposition.
Furthermore, a disproportionate amount relative to their numbers in the population of abortions are done for women of low-IQ populations, and thus the abortion of their fetuses leading to less poverty and crime is not a defense of abortion as a whole, but of genocide of Blacks and Hispanics. At this point, it is you who needs to make the statistical argument by taking into account confounding variables such as the heritability of IQ, in arguing for abortion,if you wish to be consistent.
>and tell me why without putting emotions on it abortion is wrong?
Strawman.I'm arguing neither from emotions nor from statistics, but 1st principles.

>>135897749

lesser value to the mother is what makes it a crime in one case and not the other

if you can't see the difference in violent force and choice i can't help you

>>135897900

genocide has a bit of a tricky definition, the numbers that constitute as genocide vary widely and in many cases part of genocide is war

i could make arguments as to why genocide could be beneficial, and i can say that in cases where revolution was a factor that mass killings have been justifiable

"in my opinion" means just that, i see you can justify rape, but i can't... guess we're different, i can easily get laid if i want to i don't need to force myself on someone

people have individual ideas of what is and isn't beneficial, and ultimately it's the people who wield power who get to decide or the people who read the history and make their own decisions but are powerless

like i said it's a grey area

i don't think killing is always wrong, and i likely never will

>>135898608

people don't really have a choice but to work in order to maintain a quality of life, if you think that seeking work and finding something that's slave wage equivalent because it's what's available is an actual choice given the structure of society then you're lying to yourself

>>135898808

i've been called a degenerate for a lot of reasons, if this is another? then so be it, but that doesn't really mean much to me

killing babies is only evil some of the time depending on the circumstances... i'm only humouring you by using the term evil btw it's just a word people assign all different values to and it's virtually meaningless

>>135897221
>Uses every logical fallacy in the book
>Refuses to look at the logical conclusions of the proposed system
>Dismisses by arguments without counterarguments
>Calls me the Jew talker
Boomercide cannot come soon enough.

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>>135898840
My point was that you go against science, not only of course religion because of it's view on inherent human worth.

>Sure it's a human, but there are situations where murder of other humans is justifiable and legal because it happens and there's different ways to judge different situations

Tell me in which way that human is not innocent, therefore breaking the inherent human rights that it has by killing it. You are literally throwing all the human rights that almost all nations established to be universal and obligatory to the trash can, without any strong argument besides "sometimes people die".

>You can't use a book full of religious philosophy with no basis in fact to prove a point on any objective level

You can't prove morality scientifically, like a lot of atheists try to argue about. Science only tells you what is, it cannot tell you what ought to be. So, the discussion about morality is metephysical.

>>135899588
>virtually meaningless

The only thing that is meaningless is your sperg

>>135899034

not a jew, actually completely against abrahamic faiths and i've stated multiple times i was born and raised roman catholic

>>135899566

so you feel like abortion is fine in some circumstances and not others then?

I support abortion for niggers

Niggerless society best society

>>135899588
>people don't really have a choice but to work in order to maintain a quality of life,
Yes. Because gold diggers and trust fund kids don't exist.
>if you think that seeking work and finding something that's slave wage equivalent because it's what's available is an actual choice given the structure of society then you're lying to yourself
It's still a choice, which means it needs his/her consent AND the option to get out of the contract is always on the table. Just because it lessens his/her chances to have a good life doesn't make it slavery.

>>135892919
>more people die due to warfare or terrorist acts rather than just murders, and those fall in a grey area
International law may be utilized to attain justice for civilian casualties and to disincentivize their occurrence. Terrorists are not actors operating under cover of law, real or perceived, so they are not a good group to compare.
>i don't see abortion as an issue that's anything other than clear cut, it's beneficial to everyone involved and there's no point in pretending it isn't
Three issues.:
>1
It's obviously not beneficial for the fetus
>2
If the mother is high-IQ, it is not beneficial for society
>3
If we use "it's beneficial to everyone involved" as a means to construct and enforce policy, then you would have to justify a whole load of atrocities.
>is it murder? sure, but so?
Acceptance of murder in one area leads to precedent for accepting it in more
>you're the one arguing that point btw, i was just saying that there's literally no reason to give a fetus the same rights as an adult just like children do not have the same rights as adults
You are arguing that the fetus does not have any rights and should not have any rights. I am asking how a fetus is fundamentally different from a newborn.

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46KB, 542x535px

>>135899786
>human rights

>>135899718

you're going in circles away from the initial topic and putting a lot of unrelated things on the table, that's how jew talk works

>>135899786

morality isn't objective was my point, there's no reason to think that abrahamic faiths somehow have a monopoly on morals (they don't)

there's no such thing as inherent rights, those are just ideas people think should be in place based on subjective morality

what it comes down to is that innocent or not killing happens, and in the case of abortion and sometimes war etc it's a necessary "evil"

i mean, like it or don't, it doesn't change things

you can't keep a system running efficiently if you stop to cry over every negative side of things, and an unborn child isn't worth much in the grand scheme of things

that's just reality... they serve no purpose because they don't do anything but exist inside of their mother, and it's on her to take it from there

rights aren't universal in reality, that kind of talk gets thrown around but it's not true

and like i said, when it comes to abortion the good outweighs the bad when having it legal

if someone is against it, they can easily just not ever get an abortion, and that's on them

aside from just not seeing anything wrong with murder in all circumstances, i also don't think the government should have that much power over people's choices in matters like that...

>>135879788
Never understood this argument.

Your arguing the drive for women to kill there own children is irresistible and Therefore we should allow child murder.

Well there are plenty of people men want to kill. In fact amongst blacks in the inner city they kill everyday. Should we legalize that too since it likewise is an irresistible impulse?

>there is nothing more grotesque and horrifying than a woman willingly chopping her own child apart so that she doesn't have to face reality except that we act like it's okay.

>>135899588
>lesser value to the mother is what makes it a crime in one case and not the other
This is funny. And who determines "value", anon?

>>135899865
>not a jew, actually completely against abrahamic faiths and i've stated multiple times i was born and raised roman catholic

Well, it looks like they made a poor job at raising you, so it does not really matters. Jew is a state of mind, not a religion. Judaism is a religion, aka set of rules and beliefs. A jew is a leftist relativist. An international jew, the one which ran the Bolshevik revolution. A communist so to speak. Your sperg is an anti-civilizational one. Your values do not construct any civilization, they destroy it. They create chaos and degeneracy. Its just a solipsist vomit.

>>135879489
sorry that i'm not a fan of murdering babies

Ok, let people abort, but not after the third month. By that time, you should've made your decision.

>>135879489

I support abortion for non whites and left leaning cucks.