Left-Libertarianism is superior. You can't have liberty

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/pol/ is too busy sperging out about ecelebs to actually discuss politics.

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>>134457870
Why not leave the working class to join coops and communes (as our capitalist economy allows) of their own free will? Why force your system on them?

>>134457870
I like your flag because it's the rebel flag in Victoria 2

what the fuck does left vs right matter when you're libertarian to the point of anarchism?
explain to me how ancom is practically different from ancap for the people living in them

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>>134459481

>>134457870
>"anarcho" communist
>calling others bootlickers
How do you stop people from engaging in the voluntary exchange of goods and services without a coercive state?

>select all helicopters

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>>134459481
Ancap would actually work to some extent.
Ancom would collapse in 24 hours.

>>134459420
Coops frequently get audited by IRS and raided by SWAT for nonviolent offences. They are easy targets for police. Also there is one guy at the top usually fucking everyone else over. Why do you think most successful coops are run by boomer/gen X democrats?

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It's not about hierarchy, it's about the construction of a consensual society in which all people are maximally empowered, minimally ruled. If people want to do hierarchies in business, I am about as concerned with that as I am if people want to do BDSM in the bedroom.

Most people are anarchic in day to day life. They not only do not attempt to rule over every random stranger they meet, they do not rule over ANY random stranger they meet. We call the exceptions uncouth, unwanted, and to every decent social function, uninvited. When you look at what this anarchic bent leaves then is that everyone is trying to pursue their own interests in a decent way: that is the bedrock motive of civilized man and the very fuel of capitalism. No change of human nature is needed to make anarchocapitalism function; we must only get out of the way of the nature that has developed throughout the western world. Our culture is yet mighty and may yet be strengthened by the return to its principles. Were our culture's principles allowed to be seen unchained, there would be no question of holding them back, and no fear that our culture could fall to the wretched squalor that consumes lesser cultures.

With this basic element of human motive on my side, I do not claim to account for every true anarchist. Yet I warn that to have an anarchy that is not capitalistic, you must have the unanimous consent of all participants, for you are seeking a harmony of goals apart from the basic goal of man. To the extent that you can achieve this without coercion, I will, of course, always wish you the best of luck.

Also, sage. Focus on the sins of those who rule you already, not the sins of those with whom they try to distract you.

>>134457870
>Eliminate states
>Create communes
>In those communes people start creating laws to be civilizated
>You will need rulers and judges
>Literally create a new state

You are not real anarchists,just faggots who want to fight against police because you failed at school

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>>134459954
>Coops frequently get audited by IRS and raided by SWAT for nonviolent offences
Funnily enough right-wing libertarianism would put a stop to that.

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Proudhonian mutualism is the ideal, any bottom-up socialism that rejects central planning and the state will do. I think a lot of /pol/ would agree if they could get over the commie meme.

>>134459660
exactly, thanks man

>>134459892
ñeñ

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>>134460273
I like Distributism, but any socialism that rejects private property just ain't gonna do.

>>134460077
Checked, and Let me guess...
>muh guns
Wouldnt shooting at police violate the NAP in ancap society? They are just doing their jobs after all
Ancoms want complete destruction of police and prison infrastructure hence the "anarchist" in ancom. No gods no masters

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>>134460643
>Wouldnt shooting at police violate the NAP in ancap society?
I'm not an ancap, but there's a lot of factors that would come into that, the contracts you've signed, the property you are on, the crime you've committed, etc.

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>>134460499
>I like Distributism

Get out commie

>>134457870

I like the idea of AnCom but it's just been infiltrated by limp-wristed weak antifa faggots that have no balls or even an interest in working.

How many AnComs work in a trade or are even a member of a real union that isn't some retarded grocery store or minimum wager cartel? If Syndicalism were to triumph today, it would be a bunch of employee owned McDonald's and unemployed students attempting to coop something and then failing when they realize that they can't always have equality or even racial representation on everything, and then when they find out that men do a majority of the hard work just by nature, they'd probably flip their shit and go on some rampage.

The Western family structure of the early 1900s was destroyed by Capitalist ideas. This has ensured a cucked, masochistic, and non-employable AnCom community that is now inseparable from the trash and garbage of the SJWs.

Antifa too is now a tool used by Capitalists to ensure a pacified society. Ask any Antifa member, they have no experience with guns, they have no interest in holding a family or a household of any sort against Corporate degeneracy, no desire to really defend themselves or their communities (if they can even be called such, for what community bases itself on the idea of self-defeat and self-consumption as Modern Leftism has ensured?) and they fly the flag for aesthetic purposes.

If AnCom were to return (because it absolutely is insolvent now as Fascism and National Socialism was 20-30 years ago), it would need to separate itself from Antifa and the SJWs.

>>134457870
>why is start-up business man better than average leech

Maybe because these men are the ones who push society foward and actually get the job done you lazy commie fuckers

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>>134460954
I'm not a distributist, but of all the systems recommended to "fix" capitalism, distributism sounds like the least terrible.

>>134460643
>>134460912
Police?Fuck them,we support private security,not shitty fat lazy cunts

>>134461254
It sounds terrible,sounds like socialism.Why would you touch other people property?That is communism.If I want to give money to poor people is my decision,not yours

>>134461257
All police outside of FBI, DHS, ICE, Highway patrol, coast guard, national guard, US Marshall, and state sheriff cant enforce the law outside their own (private) jurisdiction.

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>>134461413
At least it would fix itself shortly afterwards. Everyone gets a little bit of private property and no welfare, if they can make a profit off of it, great, if they can't, then too bad, they had the same advantages that everyone else had.

I wouldn't recommend it over other more capitalistic options, but at least it confuses the commies.

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>>134459660
>>134459420
>ancap society is real
>we have to ask ancap's permission
No, we don't, you're not relevant.

>>134457870
Humans are not equal
Freedom is a myth, you cannot have total freedom, so you are not free. you only have rights.

>>134461674
No,people are not born equal,you have to understand it.If someone hasnt property,he must work for others,and if nobody hires him,its his problem,not mine.
That is what we defend,not society,just individualism

>>134461854
He's stating his intention, not asking for permission.
I swear, either you fucking commies are cryptoshitposters or you're all fucking retarded.

>>134457870
>unjust hierarchies
Nature is hierarchical.

>>134461854
>we have to ask ancap's permission

Of course you wont,you are just fascists but the government owns all,you have to be physically removed

>>134459660
I see no problem with the second scenario.

Death to kulaks

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>>134461854
That wasn't my point at all you retard, you can, RIGHT NOW, join a coop or commune freely, why not choose to do so and let the working class do so of their own free will instead of forcing them to do so.

>>134457870
>>134460964
You are so wrong through. The reason people get ahead in life is that they work hard and make the right decisions. It has nothing to do with being born in the right family. Also on to your point of starting business it is hard work and risk something your fat ass wouldn't know. As for capitalism destroying famlies the family unit survived from 7000bc to the 60s wjen commie baby boomers took over.

>>134462340
Because coops by themselves aren't socialism.

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>>134460954

>>134457870
capitalist businessmen do not rule over another's life and ability to eat, but you need to affirm that yourself. A right you have is not something awarded by somebody else simply because you affirm that you exist. Hunt, practice husbandry or farm innawoods if you refuse to use money.

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>>134462475
You've eliminated exploitation of the working class with coops, isn't that what you wanted?

>>134462475
SOURCE?

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>>134462579
>(((you)))

Pinochet presidency started in 1974

>>134462579
weird how it is doing better than venezuela
does chile secretly have the most oil in the world?

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>>134457870

These faggot's keep going on about Capitalism.
Can't find one that knows what capitalism actually is.

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>>134462614
>>134462673
A private business must
10 invest in getting the cheapest labour and best machines
20 extract the most surplus value
30 outcompete other private businesses and obtain super-profits
40 GOTO 10

This is called the cycle of capital.

Replacing private business with coops doesn't accomplish anything, since the system is still capitalistic and competitive, and, therefore, unsustainable.

>>134457870
Liberty can only exist within hierarchy. Without hierarchy, the superior are limited and their liberty constrained.

>>134462773
Why do you hate freedom?

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>>134463153
>since the system is still capitalistic and competitive, and, therefore, unsustainable.
How is it unsustainable? I haven't seen any proof for this, how does competition mean that it would be unsustainable?

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>>134457870

>>134463450
Empirical evidence is bourgeois false consciousness, comrade. Just trust the theory of Marx. The contradictions are unsustainable and will lead to global revolution any day now, one year tops.

>>134462340
communalism != socialism != communism

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>>134457870
I hate the communist retards who plague real Liberalism. They have no idea what it is, yet they claim to be "liberals".

Fucking Liberalism means:
-Free Market
-Each man for his own(No hand outs to the poor from the rich)
-Minimum government
-Army Volunteering

Get the idea shitposting retard?

Also
>1 post by this ID

0/10 made me reply

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>>134463450
>>134463809
Because the goal of continuous improvement of technology is greater accumulation of capital. To be the most profitable business. So technology advances, but it doesn't make work any easier or more fulfilling. This creates a resentment towards advancing of technology.

Eventually, capital gets overaccumulated, and products are made efficiently, but nobody has the money to buy them. This is called a consumption crash. It also leads to overinvestment, which creates bubbles. The rate of profit declines, and crises become more and more frequent. The indicator of this is the ever greater inequality in the distribution of wealth.

>>134463450
Read up on dialectical materialism faggot

>>134464097
>Unfalsifiable pseudoscientific claims from the 19th century

Very impressive comrade.

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>>134464213
Leftists treated crisis as inherent in capitalism, right-wingers treat it as caused by an outside force: jews, minorities, immigrants, whatever.

>>134463955
where the fuck does it mention liberalism at all in the op?

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drinking piss and subsistence living is the end goal of the millennial yuppie's crusade for "authenticity" and ultimately the peak of the envisioned r/anarchist society

you equate libertarian ideas with anarcho capitalism and a negative yuckie fedora no-no response because you still harbor this neurotic fear of social repercussions in an anonymous internet environment.

joanna newsom can't sing, rick owens' sneakers look silly, you're a 'poseur' who just pantomimes whatever you see attractive strangers doing because you have no self esteem and rely on others for personal validation. deal with that.

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>>134464097
The market is going to have its ups and downs, but it certainly seems to be more stable than all the alternatives we have seen so far.

>>134464207
>Read up on dialectical materialism
Are you incapable of thinking for yourself?

>>134464454
>Leftists treated crisis as inherent in capitalism
So do right wing.

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>>134457870
>You can't have liberty while you still have unjust hierarchies

EAT

SHIT

>>134464207

read something that isn't complete jewish gobbledigook you credulous fool

>>134464207
>read up on this unempirical a priori pseudoscience from the 19th century

Yeah nah

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>>134457870
>You Right-wingers are all the same. You all love licking boots
this is how you know OP is a troll and not actually trying to persuade anyone, kek.

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>>134457870
>Complains about Capitalism
>Proceeds to explain Capitalism like it is Corporatism

Why can't you people ever understand anything.

>>134457870
>You can't have liberty while you still have unjust hierarchies
You can have some liberty when their are competing hierarchies, and you have choice about which you cooperate with. Communism tries to implement one unjust hierarchy, then the only competing hierarchies are the massive criminal networks, those without connections are in great danger of starving. Social animals form hierarchies, communism tries to force an unnatural hierarchy on people, which doesn't work and breaks the economy/society. For loser retards and enemies of western civilization and their sold out lackeys. Sage communists, until day of helicopter.

>>134464727
"What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.…. Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities…. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange…. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general." - Karl Marx, On the jewish question

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>>134464097
None of that happens in a free market, these things only happen due to government intervention, usually because of socialist programs.
Thanks to government intervention you get long periods of market backwardation which shouldn't and don't happen in free market

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>>134464649
>The market is going to have its ups and downs, but it certainly seems to be more stable than all the alternatives we have seen so far.
That's not even remotely true as a planned economy of USSR had steady growth, while the West had repeated recessions.

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>>134463809
>Science is fake man
>You just have to believe
>But believe me, not anyone else guise

>>134464969
This.

People confuses capitalism(free markets) with corporatism(government gives priviledges to corporations)

>>134457870
Anarcho-anything is retarded tbqh. Collectivism is the only thing that makes sense.

>>134459420
>Why force your system on them?
Because you need somebody to do the work. The unable/unwilling needy want communism, the able and willing do not, that's why communism needs walls to keep it's actual producers from fleeing.

>>134465045
And what period in history do you consider to have a free market?

>>134457870
>Left-Libertarianism is superior.
Yeah it's absolutely up there with Dry-Water and Light-Dark.

>>134460499
How could you have private property without a state anyways? I mean if you run a shop or cultivate a field people will somewhat feel that you naturally deserve to exploit those things through the legitimacy brought by the work you put into them. But if you ask for rent due to idly "owning" some real estate you do not work on through some fiction called "private property" how can you expect people to respect that fiction since there is no state to enforce that fiction? The mutualist approach is better.

>>134465107
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-y3F6sYX3A

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>>134465107
>That's not even remotely true as a planned economy of USSR had steady growth
Before it completely collapsed in on itself.

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>>134465159

>Here (in America) libertarian means extreme advocate of total tyranny

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxPUvQZ3rcQ

Was he correct /pol?

>>134465521
>Gorbachev liberalized the economy
>USSR went capitalist and collapsed
Don't worry, if he's still alive when we get back in, we'll shove him into a pizza oven.

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>>134465521
>>134465682

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>>134465107
wow! such an utopia!!! why did the people want to escape from that paradise???

>>134462369
Wrong. The family unit has been dying a slow death ever since capitalism started spreading. The nuclear family that developed starting with the 19th century is already a severely degraded form of the traditional extended family that existed before capitalism destroyed rural communities.

>>134457870
Hierarchy is the natural state of man, faggot. Fuck off. Look at all the Milgram experiments, the mere suggestion of authority is enough to keep people in line. People crave guidance, it's part of the existential quandary of consciousness. Do me a favor, take your revolutionary edginess and get out of my dear country before it becomes not great again.

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>>134465682
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Era_of_Stagnation

Gorbachev was trying to save what was left of the USSR, admittedly he could have gone about it better though.

>>134465895
Kulaks gunna kulak

>>134463450
Because all the vegan name your own price and pay Cafe's go out of business because it take 45 minutes to get kale between two pieces of bread. They literally can't compete with dumpster diving.

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>>134465540
capitalism does make the things you enjoy, then is destroyed by corporatism. think of the early days of video game markets, almost entirely a free market because noone took it seriously enough to regulate. skip a couple years and the protectionism set in and now we have pic related

I really like these Avant Teen Alt-Memez they're really funny and not just a bunch of derivative braindead shit.

>>134465920
The Milgram experiments proved that people living in authoritarian society subject to authority they've been taught to obey. Recreate that same experiment in an egalitarian "primitive" society and they'd scoffed at the scientist

>hierarchies are bad!
>but i am clearly intellectually superior to those who disagree with this

rly mks u pondr

>>134464454
That's not true. At least the Austrian school, probably the most right-wing school of economics, considers, just like the left, that crises are inherent to capitalism. The difference is that they consider that it's a good thing as it's supposed to "purge" the system at intervals.

>>134465929
If you dedicate a disproportionate amount of resources to the military, but don't actually go to war, of course you will have stagnation. It was actually Andropov's reforms which would help the economy recover (yes, equal outcomes is a bad thing), but Gorbachev went in a complete opposite direction and destroyed the whole thing.

>>134465170
The vast majority of human history.

In fact most nations that rise rapidly to power are the ones that have embraced Capitalism, or at the very least a radically freer market than existed before.

But tell you what, you point to a market bubble and I'll try and tell you what socialist program caused it.

>>134465159
Free markets are in no way the same thing as capitalism. Markets exist since very early in human prehistory while capitalism developed millennia later. Also you can have markets under many kinds of socialism.

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>>134465540
KEK! Once again proving that they have no idea what capitalism actually is.

>>134466257
>The Milgram experiments proved that people living in authoritarian society subject to authority they've been taught to obey.
so THATS why all these people still believe in the law of surplus "theft". they have been taught to obey it

>>134466655
Then what is it?

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>>134466475
Panic of 1819
Panic of 1825
Panic of 1837
Panic of 1847
Panic of 1857
Panic of 1866
Black Friday (1869) – aka Gold Panic of 1869
Panic of 1873
Panic of 1884
Panic of 1890
Panic of 1893
Panic of 1896
Panic of 1901
Panic of 1907
Panic of 1910

100 million corpses from 1917 to 1990
:^)

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>>134466388
>If you dedicate a disproportionate amount of resources to the military, but don't actually go to war, of course you will have stagnation.
Well it was pretty dumb of the Soviet people to vote in all that extra military spending when they couldn't afford it. Especially since they were the ones suffering for it.

But if the Soviet's wanted Andropov's reforms why didn't they vote in a man like him instead of Gorbachev after Andropov died?

>>134465595
Um, no, sorry, dumpling, I think it's time to grow up like a big boy and put down the toy gnome and pick up a Book(chin) :)

>>134466651
capitalist Free markets are in no way the same thing as socialism. capitalist free Markets exist since very early in human prehistory while socialism developed millennia later. Also you can have socialist business models under many kinds of free market capitalism

>>134462369
>It has nothing to do with being born in the right family.
BZZT, wrong. Growing up in a single mother household is statistically correlated to poverty and criminality. The number of successful sons who "followed in their father's footsteps" screams doubt at that ridiculous assertion as well.

>>134466707
No one taught me to obey it, I reached the conclusion myself after reading introductory texts to Capital(Especially Harry Cleaver's "Reading Capital Politically"). Obedience to authority on the other hand are enforced through coercion and threats.

>>134466738
and what happened after every single panic, no matter what?
a boom

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>>134465902
The break down of the family unit is down to so-called equality (socialist) movement's.

>>134465920
Unjust hierarchies =/= all hierarchies

Most anarchists accept some legitimate hierarchies, such as teachers on pupils, technical specialists on non-specialists in the scope of their field of expertise, a mother on her baby, etc...

>>134467000
>Harry Cleaver taught me to obey surplus "theft" even though theft is a moral claim and I dont believe in god
commies are such a laugh riot.

>>134466741
Party politics. They thought they needed some younger candidates.

>Old men, ruling the world, etc. etc.

>>134467145
unjust? thhat is a moral claim. where are you, personally deriving your morality from?`

>>134466761
I actually have The Ecology of Freedom sitting on my bookshelf, didn't manage to finish it because Bookchin somehow surpasses Chomsky in the art of boring writing style

>>134466923
Capitalism didn't exist in prehistory, only markets. Also early and current hunter-gatherer societies can certainly be described as socialists Note that you can have capitalism without markets, that's called state capitalism (this is what the USSR was).

>134466738
People killed under communism
People's Republic of China 1949-present:73,237,000
Union of Soviet republics 1922-1991: 58,627,000
Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic1918-1922: 3,284,000
Democratic People’s Republic of Korea 1948-present:3,163,000 etc.

>>134467145
There are no "legitimate hierarchies."
This is a rationalization. You're contradicting yourself.

>>134467808
That's a pretty good reason to be a LIBERTARIAN socialist

>>134467041
No. Modern liberalism is just a recent contributing factor to the continued breakdown of the family unit which started way earlier. I do agree that many socialists and socialist movements have been contaminated by liberalism but many others, especially earlier movements, are very conservative on mores and their view of family. I'm quite certain somebody like Proudhon would be accused to be an alt-righter nowadays.

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>>134468075
What's stopping a boy with a gun (or several) from imposing martial anal-fisting on your little Marxist pow-wow? Not a whole lot I reckon.
Remember what happened to me?

>>134468649
>>134468649
>What's stopping a boy with a gun (or several) from imposing martial anal-fisting on your little Marxist pow-wow?
Probably a few million workers with a few million guns. It took more than one boy with a gun to crush the Free Territory

>>134468649
People ought to be armed and organised to resist external and internal threats if needs be.

>>134467808
yfw /pol/'s post count is directly correlated to communist death toll

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>>134457870
Left -- that is Marxist -- ideology explicitly excludes any form of liberalism because it's an EGALITARIAN REVOLUTIONARY IDEOLOGY, you LARPing faggot.
Read pic related!

>>134462758
1973.

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>>134469600
I wish that were true but that's not exactly true. Many Marxists, starting with Engels, have been contaminated by liberalism to a degree. Even now for one rather un-liberal leftist/Marxist site like leftypol you have dozens of liberal "leftist" subreddits. It's about as bad for IRL political parties and political groups.

>>134466740
*tips revisionism*

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>>134459660

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>>134466740

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>free shit! xDDD
>let's abolish wages and exchange! xDD
>schools would have more and better teachers and also more equipment for free! xDD
It's hilarious how fantasious commie economics is.

>>134470272
>muh revisionism
That's how history works you stupid fuck. Differences in interpretation are published with varying degrees of truth to them, evidence is uncovered and arguments are made. Overwhelming evidence from the Soviet archives and other primary resources shows that there was a substantial ammount of mass suffering following the 1917 revolution. Oh, and fun fact. Wealthy jews financed the Bolsheviks. Even the most Marxist of college professors admit it.

>>134457870
Lets run a thought experiment. Two societies exist on earth, mutually unknown to each other. One is has high quality of life, the other not so much. Is this situation a hierarchy? No, it's not. Over time these two places float closer. At what point in time does this situation become a hierarchy? First contact? Why do they owe anything to the other people?

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>>134466738
Yeah, kind of notice that most of these examples happened before socialism became a thing, guess your hoping that this will disprove my point.

But nope, most of those crashes due to "Governments" going off sound money and issuing debt they couldn't pay - not because of capitalism.
A couple where down to mismanagement at banks, but other banks stepped in to make sure the decline was short lived (in fact in this list some of the shortest lived)
And the remaining was down to criminal activity, which again were short lived panic's, and has other members of the market trying to step in and stop it.

Have you even glanced at these, or did you just copy it from someone else?

>>134470868
>It's hilarious how fantasious commie economics is.
How so?

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>>134470192
You don't get the notion of preaching water and drinking wine that goes rampant with the Marxist intelligentsija. Of course these fucknut intellectuals (no connection to intellect and intelligence, though) practice "liberalism" but what they "suggest" (at gunpoint) is ultra-collectivism and an egalitarian tyranny. They themselves standing above the proclaimed egality. I.e. the typical failure of ideology when meeting the reality of nature. That's why ideology always will fail against the natural World View (Weltanschauung).

>>134470992
I'm not sure I understand your question. Hierarchy is a fixed relation of domination, where one party commands and the other obeys.

>>134470868
I don't agree with free education, students should be paid to attend school.

>>134470868
Rothbard isn't responding to Kropotkin but very specifically to Marxist-Leninists. I don't doubt he would have more appropriate arguments gainst Kropotkin though.

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>>134466737
You Communist's usually love your dictionary definitions, odd that you haven't taken a look..

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism

Make note of the absence of the word "Government", notice that used in correct context they talk about the benefits of "Democracy" AND "Capitalism" - as in, not the same thing..

Honestly guy's, this takes all of 3 seconds to look up..

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>>134466655
hence

So let me get this straight An-Coms.

You want to both Abolish the state, and also force people to give equal things out to each other.

How does that even fucking work?

What incentives are there to excel? Why would anyone do anything they don't want to do?

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>>134459660
the point missed in this comic is that there is no need for a business, no economy for a business to participate in, and no resources from which that business can be created in a lib-soc society.

at the same time, a single commune within a libertarian capitalism does not equate to a libertarian socialism because of its isolated nature.

neither example given makes sense.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NajQTN9qhXg

>>134457870
>oppreshun
>autistic screeching
Why should I care for filth?
Why do you think you're entitled to anything?
Because you exist?
Because YOU think it's just and fair?
Socialism and anarchy is for failures in life.
Please let me help you tie that rope around your neck.
Better of dead than red

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>>134471638

Yeah! Socialism Is Great.. Until you run about of other people's money..

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>>134471974
Love it!

>>134471322
We are not using the same meaning for liberalism. What we mean by liberalism more or less cover what you'd call SJW, or, more broadly speaking, political currents generally associated with the left (although nowadays there are plenty of economically right-wing liberals) that primarily promote politics based on identitarian demands rather than economic ones.

>>134457870
>capitalism IS an unjust hierarchy
I knew anarchists were retarded, but not to that point.
Anyway, about your anarcho-communism, there'll always be people with more power/luck/connections and thus will get better situations, jobs, etc.
You can't just remove the hierarchy from human societies. Even if there is no society and it's a natural order, hierarchy would ultimately come back in a few decades.

>>134472298
>force people to give equal things out to each other
I think the idea is to just kill everyone who doesn't. You don't need the state to kill people.

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If people have a right to food, housing, education, health care, etc they have by extension a right to the labor required to produce those goods. I don't understand how forcing people to produce things for other people is remotely close to furthering the goal of individual liberty. How left-libertarianism manages to be considered anything other than a black hole of cognitive dissonance and magical thinking is beyond me.

>>134472298
>You want to both Abolish the state, and also force people to give equal things out to each other.
>How does that even fucking work?

Workers Councils, mutual credit, and worker organized groups.

>What incentives are there to excel? Why would anyone do anything they don't want to do?

What incentive is there to excel when you don't see any extra dime on your wage if you work hard, and if you happen to be at the top you make in an hour what most people in the country make in a year? You would work where you want to work and not be involuntarily employed or unemployed.

>>134457870
What if someone wants to start a for-profit business?

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>>134457870
its just that freedom isn't for everyone

>>134465540
everything good is created early on, before a handful of major companies are established

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>>134457870
Not getting rewarded for your effort equals fair. mK

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>>134459420

>money and capitalism isn't somehow enforced

gee, libertarians are always left, im sorry, because they don't enforce a perticular system the community itself doesn't support

unlike libertarian capitalists, anarchists love freedom

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>>134472298
>You want to both Abolish the state,
yes
>and also force people
only dirty statists want to exercise the dictatorship of the proletariat

>to give equal things out to each other.
in an already industrialized society (yes, thanks to capitalism) we can already produce more than enough food to feed everyone and we have more than enough housing to house everyone. these resources should be distributed freely.

>How does that even fucking work?
the same way cooperation and mutual benefit has always worked, it's in your own best interest. you can look at successes like the paris commune or revolutionary catalonia, you can look at volunteer organizations like volunteer firefighting, Red Cross, or citizen militias.

>What incentives are there to excel?
life, liberty, family, prosperity, security, passion?

>Why would anyone do anything they don't want to do?
why should anyone do anything they don't want to do? right-libertarians seem to have a very negative portrait of man, probably coming from the managerial psychologies of the CEOs and bourgeoise who make up the movement, you see people as potential chinks in the armor. but no healthy person wants to sit on their ass all day, and even if its only for their own benefit, they will work if it is rewarded. the small percentage of cripples, retards, and true antisocials who will contribute nothing to society is small enough not to be a problem.

>>134472897

>Workers Councils, mutual credit, and worker organized groups.

See, here is the point; Why the fuck would anyone work.

I work in a Warehouse, I shuffle stock to and from Trucks. It's a pretty fucking boring job, but it pays the bills and I can tolerate the wasted hours.

This is the stance of everyone working in the fucking warehouse, from the stock floor to the managers.

So tell me. Why the fuck would I be working in the Warehouse without money?

Why would anyone do ANYTHING they don't like? Will you force them? Then why the fuck would anyone want to live under a rule where they are FORCED to do work they don't like and then earn nothing in return.

Communism sucks because you can work like a dog and you can't earn anything more. Anarchy does away with rules and regulations that keeps people safe.

So tell me then, What is your job right now?

Because I am literally the Proletariat and your ideas would fucking destroy everything I work towards.

>>134473011
does the commie think that rent or taxes should not exist? or both?

>>134472298
Abolishing the state only refers to current nation-states. Other forms of polity are considered acceptable such as communes (but there are other options).

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>>134473011
>sips testosterone blockers
>watches cuckold porn
>"yeah, basically, not-invading someone's property and voluntary contracts are basically the same as taxes."

>>134473371
>successes like the paris commune or revolutionary catalonia

How long did those successes last before the workers failed to organize sufficient resistance to outside forces that rekt their shit?

>>134473399
both, who owns uncultivated earth?

>>134472824
>You can't just remove the hierarchy from human societies.

A good thing that it's not a goal. Only the removal of -unjust- hierarchies is a goal.

>>134472626
Education is an investment, you don't lose money by having an increasingly informed and educated society that use their skills to grow the economy. Under a right-libertarian regime, students would be in debt and take up low pay low skill work that they can find to pay it off and force otherwise productive people out of the job market. There would be no reason for educated people to take those jobs if they were not forced to work to survive, and pay off debts, because they would stay in school and research until they find an opportunity to exercise their skill in a fair and voluntary agreement.

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>>134473387
your job is shit because it exists in a system where employers benefit from milking everything they can out of their employees and since you are working for your measly dollar you are completely alienated from the work, you get no satisfaction out of stacking boxes for scrooge mcduck until he decides to give you a shilling.

in an ancom society your work and most everybody's work would be contributing directly to the wellbeing of your community, yourself, your family and friends, and you would also have a hand in the managing of the warehouse itself if you so wanted. a lot of gruelling jobs could be X'd altogether because they only exist to sustain markets. also without the exploitative hierarchy work would be better distributed and you would likely have shorter working days.

>>134473773
And What makes your way "just"

>>134473891
Everyone can dream of being a dentist, but nobody dreams of being a street-sweeper.

But we still need Street-sweepers.

>>134473773
Define unjust hierarchy. A hierarchy will be unjust no matter what, some are on top and most are at the bottom.
Do you want fascism then? A good and healthy natural order, a hierarchy made by the state for the population to follow and accept?
Of course that with less state and more individual freedom..oh wait communism doesn't allow that. How do you guys solve the communism problem in your ideology?

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>>134473371
>these resources should be distributed freely.
This implies that those resources are unlimited and that everyone is of equal capible of managing them effiecently.

Pic related, your future when all the farmland is distributed.

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>>134473891
>Education is an investment, you don't lose money by having an increasingly informed and educated society that use their skills to grow the economy
Seems like you skipped a few classes on how investments work. Or, what's more likely, you are mentally retarded and too dumb to understand anything.

Whether education is an investment or not, all depends on how much return the formation can bring. Meaning, there's absolutely no certainty wheater the money you put on education is an actual investment or a waste of wealth. All forms of education aren't the same thing, all colleges aren't the same, and all subjects are not the same. And thing is, even if a return existed, you are still making the investment in the dark, meaning, you wouldn't know how to improve such a system. Just like any country with socialist colleges, it would be behind any free market of education. Just like it already happened in the real world.

But whatever, you are too low-T and delusional to be reasoned with. I don't expect you to learn anything at all no matter how much information I shower you with.

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>>134473607
i'm just explaining the theoretics of the ancom society. yes the historical examples we've seen were military failures, but if such a society were able to get dug in well enough it would be in nobody but the ruling classes' interests to oppose it. that self sufficient organizations were seen as such targets should show the subversiveness state powers saw in them.

>>134474063
But my job already contributes directly to myself and my family because it gives me fucking money.

I don't care about the people who get the deliveries I stack, they're often 20 miles away.

Tell me exactly mr Ancom; What stops me from just taking what I want from society and not contributing at all?

I go out and build me and my family a little shack out in the woods, raise what I can and then, when I need something, I roll up to the commune with open arms and take what shit you're giving me.

Are you going to FORCE me to not do that? Because that sounds alot like you're taking away Freedom.

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>>134474339
we'll have to have a quick wave of population control before anarchism of course.

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>>134474669
And finally you admit your desire to murder millions.

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>>134474669
Tracers work both ways dipshit.

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>>134474444
How is investing resources into educating your workforce an uncertain investment? Literally what the fuck

>>134474798

this site has a thing for murderus ideologies

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>>134474630
if you didn't want to work in the warehouse surely someone else would. your work could pertain specifically to you, even if that work is for personal gain, like the building of such a little shack for your family, that's meaningful work.
it would be in your own best interest not to sabotage the society you're living off of, but as far as far as food production goes you could surely take without giving and not sink the ship.

>>134475123
At least the nazis are upfront about it.

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>>134475015
>socialists literally can't even read and comprehend what you just explained to them

>>134475163
Let me tell you this quite planely.

Fucking nobody likes working in a warehouse. That's why they PAY people or FORCE people to do these jobs.

You effectively want to build an entire society on the general feeling of "Not wanting everything to burn"

All you will get is a society that barely survives, dragged down by people who don't want to break their backs for people.

At last Capitalism let's the Lazy and ignorant seep to the bottom.

You expect me to consider Lazy degenerates equals.

But again; I ask you, what is your current profession.

>>134475222

so where the communists, but you don't see them gaining any sympathis, one should play favorite if one is against violance, people might think your just like the moderate muslim meme, standing beside your ideology of choice without doing the dirty work yourself

as for anarchism, its anarchy, its not like they aren't up front about the goal

>>134475476
It's not an uncertain investment. When you educate and train people they get educated and trained. Faggot

>conflating postive liberty with negative liberty again

fuck off

>>134475547
Warehouse jobs could be automated, there are almost fully automated warehouses right now. The difference is that under communism automation would be welcomed and encouraged rather than feared

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>>134475651
>It's not an uncertain investment
Hey, Einstein, how come people who spend tens of thousands of loaned money in billionaire prestigious facilities to study liberal arts are struggling to pay back their loans?

By the way, can you tell me what data did you analyse to get to the absurd conclusion that every time you waste wealth on education there's a positive return? I would never assume that a socialist just made shit up in his mind to validate his progressive beliefs. /s

>>134475723

>implying such a distinction is usefull
the dude who made it even agreed you need both

>im free to take a walk
implies
>no one is hindering me while i try to take a walk

>>134473387
Work like this exists because employment is not voluntary. You have this job to pay bills, and the consequence of not taking the job or any similar one is losses in your standard of living. You can say "no" to a specific job, but you can't say "no" to having a job and this cripples incentives for companies to compete for workers with better working conditions and better jobs in general. Under communism, where you own your own work, frivolous jobs that can't be automated or have their responsability distributed would most likely be eliminated altogether for no longer being necessary and you would be free to choose what you want to do with your time for work rather than be coerced by distorted market forces. Work would not be a 9-5 job, that's a prescribed concept on its own, it would be the sum of the value you are contributing to your family and community.

>>134475986
>Hey, Einstein, how come people who spend tens of thousands of loaned money in billionaire prestigious facilities to study liberal arts are struggling to pay back their loans?
Probably since they live in neoliberal hells that actually have tutition fees.

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>>134475005
>>134474798
it's a joke my friends, nowhere in ancom ideology is a murderous wave of population control
>>134475547
a manual laborer who lives near the warehouse, sees a position which needs filling, and understands the smooth running of the shipments contribute to his daily well being would.

>You effectively want to build an entire society on the general feeling of "Not wanting everything to burn"
exactly. it is a utopian ideology, but one which may not be altogether unbelievable.
>All you will get is a society that barely survives, dragged down by people who don't want to break their backs for people.
but people will not feel the alienation from their work and their communities they feel now. you don't want to break your back for scrooge mcduck but you'd surely break your back for your family or neighbors.

>You expect me to consider Lazy degenerates equals.
not equals, negligible. nothings, incidents, pests, but not problems.

>But again; I ask you, what is your current profession.
I am a professional shitposter, JDIF pays me $18.50/h to post subversive commie ideologes on /pol/ /his/ and /lit/

>>134475840
>>134476066

Right. So then who maintains the automated machines?

An engineer certainly wouldn't want to, because they'd rather be doing something fun like building shit that fires other shit or making DOOM run on an abacus.

And at the end of the day; What if I don't give a shit about the pathetic inbred down the street or the old useless couple on the corner who are not contributing. Why should I waste my time for people who are not wasting theirs for me?

Why should everyone have everything equal when nobody needs to EARN anything.

The only people who want communism are the stupid and the Lazy.

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>>134473891
The ridiculous student debt that exists in the U.S is down to government intervention, by guaranteeing loan repayments, loan companies lent huge amounts of money to people that they would of classed high risk and normally wouldn't of lent money to, this huge amount of money then made the price of school go through the fucking roof, making sure that anybody who wanted to go to school would almost certainly need to take out a loan.. Rinse Repeat.

I personally have no issue in making education free but this would reflect in higher taxes, but I agree this would be an investment in society and the benefits should out way the cost, however the "right-libertarian" way where you would have to pay yourself is valid, in fact would be the most cost effective hands down.
Since schools wouldn't have guaranteed money coming in they would have to really complete, as they did in the past for money which usually resulted in lower fee's which could be paid off by a part time job.

But arguing that students should have a complete free ride is ridiculous, firstly you need to raise the money, so you're either taxing 'the low skilled labour' or business, which will pass the cost on to everyone else with price rise's, neither of which are benefiting 'the low skilled labour' as none of that will be voluntarily to them.

Its surprising how often this sort of argument is made by you guys..

'You make something free here then voluntary goodness'
"However cost is applied over there and no choice in the matter"

>>134476302
>hahaha it's just a joke i'm not really a sociopath who hides behind my ideology

>>134474444
Assuming colleges have reasonable entrance requirements, then the research conducted and/or skills learned will be given back to the economy. Public universities have been responsible for many technological advances that gave the economy previously unimaginable industries and products.

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>>134476317
probably someone with interest and know-how in automation

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>>134476290
>Probably since they live in neoliberal hells that actually have tutition fees.
>Have to pay for the billionaire facilities you use instead of outsourcing the costs to people who don't want it
>"NEO LIBERAL HELL!!"

>>134476066
>"Work like this exists because employment is not voluntary."
>"employment is not voluntary because people don't get free food, water, and internet"
Commies always bringing the toppest of keks.

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>tfw small business owner
>tfw ten years from now I'm still gonna be running a small business while the few commies that actually have a job will still be making my coffee in-between their revolution LARP fantasies
Feels liberating, not being a benefits-sponge.

>>134476302
>>134476503

But my Warehouse DOESN'T keep the smooth running that contributes to MY Daily life. It just pays the bills.

Nobody will work unless they want to. I know I wouldn't. And I'd encourage my family to do the same.

Why should I work hard when other people do not? Anything I would do wouldn't progress me in any way, I'd get nothing productive from working hard in your society.

>>134473371
That's all wonderful until you find that nobody wants to cooperate with each other or do shit for no personal gain.

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>>134467145
>Unjust
>legitimate
/pol/ needs to enable [spoiler] tags, some anons could be seriously spooked by this kind of shit.

>>134476317
>An engineer certainly wouldn't want to, because they'd rather be doing something fun like building shit that fires other shit or making DOOM run on an abacus.

The great thing about communism is that the engineer would have time and resources to do both. Since it will be a far more social system he'll feel a desire to help out his community, thus he'll be engaging in reproductive work (like maintaining robots) any given hours of the week. All the time off he can spend innovating in whatever field he prefers

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>>134457870

>Expecting human populations to not naturally stratify; there will always be hierarchies, even if they are just loosely based on looks, intelligence, and talent

Have you ever left your mom's basement, faggot???!!

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>>134476420
if that's your point of attack you may as well give up as you'll find nothing anywhere in the literature which refers to that.
I was jokingly posting white-pride sammy boy in response to someone's complaint about niggers

ancom is pretty much the furthest political ideology from sociopathy at any rate.
not the existential freefall of right-lib's negative freedom, not the Marxists' meagre "right to work", but the Right To Freedom and Well-Being For All!

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>>134476890
>The great thing about communism is that the engineer would have time and resources to do both
That's right comrade. The great thing about communism is that wealth would just magically poof into existence! :DDDD
Woah, communism is so much supperior to capitalism.

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>>134476302
>it's a joke my friends, nowhere in ancom ideology is a murderous wave of population control
Except for some of the writings of early anarchists as we understand them, in particular Russian and French, that explicitly relied on bombings to send a wave of "propaganda of the deed" to incur anarchy. Marx also explicitly states that violence would be necessary for the revolution to be successful and all those that opposed them should be destroyed.

Violence is permanently attached to your ideology. Idiots like in pic related eat it up.

>>134476766
You're arguing with people ignorant to facts. You're not going to get anywhere

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>>134476890

Yep, the engineer could do that...and then die from starvation or be sent to the gulag for antisocial politik

Enjoy creating hell hole after hell hole

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>>134457870

>I'm a lazy fuck who has nothing to offer materially, genetically, or socially, but I want to be artificially higher on the hierarchy.

Confirmed for leftist.

>>134477250
>The great thing about communism is that wealth would just magically poof into existence!
No it would be the result of human labor, just like under capitalism

OP wears the anarchist flag.

Quick dump your fee fee's before (((they))) think you're being serious!

>>134477307
>libertarian socialism=stalinism
What did he mean by this?

>>134476890
But if he's not forced to maintain the robots, why WOULD he maintain the robots instead of like, building his own robots, that are not for boring work like stocking shelves?

>>134477355

That has worked so well in the numerous countries it has governed!

>>134477355
Human labor that wouldn't happen because the vast majority of people don't give a shit about society or cooperation and would rather jerk off watching The Real World or playing call of duty than go do a job that is less enjoyable for literally no personal gain

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>>134476317
>An engineer certainly wouldn't want to, because they'd rather be doing something fun like building shit that fires other shit or making DOOM run on an abacus.
you're making too big an assumption. engineers who could fill a more important role in society could surely have a more important job, but there will be somebody who can take the responsibility of running the warehouse in the day and making DOOM ports in their free time. is there nobody in your world who can sacrifice?

>>134477031
>you'll find nothing anywhere in the literature which refers to that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_and_violence#Arguments_in_Favor_of_Violent_and_Non-violent_Means
>Errico Malatesta, an anarchist-communist, propounded that it is "necessary to destroy with violence, since one cannot do otherwise, the violence which denies [the means of life and for development] to the workers."

>>134477534
I just told you, because the society would be based on mutual aid and cooperation rather than competition and authority.

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>>134477559

>"We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us."

Enjoy starvation and the collapse of centuries of culture and technological development


Good Ol' Communism

>>134477355
Yes of course, comrade. And with all the incentives and profits removed, people would work more, to give materials for free to engineers they don't know, to make projects that they are unsure to be worth their costs.

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>>134477258
violent revolution against the state =/= genocidal population control

marxism =/= anarchism

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>>134477492

>Not understanding that any redistributionism
and socialism would require use of force to maintain and will eventually lead to consolidation of power and totalitarianism

Have you ever opened a history book?

>>134477864
But the incentives wouldn't be removed, work can be performed for many more reasons other than wages, such as the social contributions, personal satisfaction and so on

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>>134477031
ancoms, ansocs, commies, anything marxist related, is as far from "well-being for all" at any rate.

You are so delusional and obsessed with your ideology, that weather you destroy the lives of millions or not is redundant to you. Your ideology is the priority, not the well being of anyone.

>>134477619
>>134477663

>Is there nobody in your world who can sacrifice.

Mate, I am from Yorkshire. You PAY people for their hard work here.

I do my job because I profit from it. I won't profit from my job if I earned no fucking money from it.

>>134478211
So sweet nothings in your ear and hoping every otherfuckwit doesn't stab you in the back or fuck up.

>>134478063
And capitalism doesn't require the use of force to maintain how? We are libertarians exactly because we want to stop power being concentrated in the hands of the few

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>>134478211

This would ultimately devolve into forced labor at the end of a gun barrel

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>>134476890
>he'll feel a desire to help out his community

You're basing your whole argument on that?! They'll 'feel' like working..

Usually when people work like you're describing, its because their passionate about their work, its fun, its interesting, its 'profitable'

Have you ever worked in a warehouse?
Want to take a guess at what things it ain't?

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>>134478211
>work can be performed for many more reasons other than wages
>such as the social contributions, personal satisfaction and so on
>feeling of social contribution
>personal satisfaction
>but the incentives wouldn't be removed, you would have your emotional gratification to make you work

>>134477972
9 times out of 10 that's what it turns into. Given the record of anarchists, communists, and ancoms it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to think they get the bright idea to go ahead and kill a bunch of people because they disagree. Label them whatever you want, capitalists, kulaks, the list can go on.

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>>134457870
oh this gay copypasta again

>>134478332
>hoping every otherfuckwit doesn't stab you in the back
It's only under the extremely anti-social system of capitalism that one must constantly stay on guard as to not be stabbed in the back by fellow community members, not libertarian socialism

>>134478332
>Mate, I am from Yorkshire. You PAY people for their hard work here.
Because that's the Capitalist mode. How is this so hard to understand? and how is it not payment to have a free society to provide for you which you helped create?

>>134478063
>redistributionism
after the initial revolutionary expropriation there would be no redistribution, central planners who might attempt would not even exist.

I need to carry this heavy box upstairs.

I could, carry the heavy box upstairs myself... OR...

I can complain that the box is too heavy.
...that the box has to be carried.
...that there is a flight of stairs the box needs to go up.
...that there is even a box in the first place.

I could demand that someone else carries the box at gun point.

I could request that someone else carries the box for free, for pay.

I could think of all the possible ways the box can get up those stairs without actually doing any of the work.
... designing an escalator.
... designing an elevator.
... designing a box carrying robot that climbs stairs.

I could consider that this box up stairs predicament is not a unique one and try to capitalize on the laziness of all box carriers and stair climbers.

When in all actuality all I need to do is carry a stupid fucking box up a flight of stairs.

Where's the politics in this?

Trying to decide what color the box is.

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>>134478260
>redundant
The word you're looking for is "irrelevant"
Also "weather" is like rain or snow or sunny. "Wether" is the spelling you're looking for.
Just helping a monkey capitalist out. We need your kind to lift the South out of barbarism.

>>134478429
>>134478657

It's like you can feel the Middle Class NEETism roll out of his mouth.

I'm a damn good Chef and a Damn good Wood/Stone sculpter.

I didn't go into being a Chef or a stonecutter/Carpenter because Those are my Hobbies, and churning out made-to-order shit would make them worthless.

>>134478616
So what stops Tyrone squatting in my house or taking my things while I am out working in the Warehouse "Because I feel like it"

Why would I not sit at home and just shoot anyone I see who is not a direct friend?

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>>134478484
but now you're making arguments outside of ideology, you're making assumptions on how people act as you see it.

the state guarantees violence, requires violence, requires exploitation, anarchism leaves man to do as man will. capitalists, kulaks etc. will not exist in an anarchist society, nor would they have any reason to.

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>>134470545
What could ancoms ever accomplish?
Pic related is your endgame after all these 'oppressive hierarchies' end.
Your cycle never ends.

>>134478260
also that is an epic image

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>>134478404

Socialism will never accomplish this; you would need every individual to knowingly and voluntarily agree to sacrifice their own needs for the greater society in the BELIEF that EVENTUALLY everyone would be better off...it is practically group Christianity

>>134479173
>woman hunter
what commie fag made this?
the genders should be reversed

The reason all marxisms are retarded is simply because they're all based on the fundamental butthurt about "muh capitalist opression of the proletariat". To expand, marxism is not preoccupied with prosperity; it is not preoccupied with family and nation (duh), it is not preoccupied with well being, it is not preoccupied with pushing humanity to new frontiers. It has one and one goal only: to end what it terms the oppression of the proletariat by the burgeoisie.

What is this oppression? Nothing more than the fact that part of the value of the product does not go to the worker and instead goes to the entrepreneur.

It's an endless cycle of "muh opressuhns" and "muh stuffed burgeoisie", which is why all communism ends up either becoming authoritarian capitalism (China) or shitholes (Venezuela) or even just pure cancer that even communism know is cancer (USSR). It's because communism sacrifices prosperity, the nation and all else to end oppression. Really, it's why cultural marxism deserves its name: it just decides to transcend from pure class butthurt to full on intersectionalism theory, down into absolute buttblastedness about everything. It's designed so that it becomes impossible to satisfy. It's endlessly electable: you can always find a minority de jour that is oppressed, or you can default on muh economic oppression.

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>>134478886

Agreed, OP is most likely a troll, or at the very least, someone who has never had to work a job performing manual labor with the other people they KNOW will sacrifice their self interest for the greater good

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>>134478211
I hope your underdeveloped brain one day realizes that if the average food production worker could cut his hours in a half and starve millions in the process while getting the same wage, they would choose to slash their hours in a half.

Almost no adult gives a flying fuck about anyone who's not their family and loved ones. Altruism is just superficial and deceitful.

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>>134478886
>I didn't go into being a Chef or a stonecutter/Carpenter because Those are my Hobbies, and churning out made-to-order shit would make them worthless.

What is your argument? you took up trades because you are a responsible and mature adult, why would this go away in an ancom society?

>>134478886
why would "Tyrone" be stealing from you when the commune can easily provide for him with its surplus of food?
>Why would I not sit at home and just shoot anyone I see who is not a direct friend?
why WOULD you??? is this something you have an impulse to do?
but sure if someone's fucking with you blast them, defend yourself

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>>134478657

>Expecting the revolutionaries and central planners to relinquish power after the 'glorious expropriation'

What a bizarre reality you must inhabit to believe this garbage

>>134479714
sorry, nevermind I see what you're saying. you are NOT a stonecutter/carpenter. well then you are an outlier because I imagine most people who have the opportunity to make work out of their occupation would do so.
but would it really be churning out shit made to order if you are working on the commune you and your friends/family live in, and not trading your expertise for paper money to someone who may or may not make meaningful use of your efforts?

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People will feel like fixing toilets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dht_3NziwSw

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>>134479884
there are no central powers to begin with.

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>>134479714

The basic argument: In your world, people wouldn't receive the fruits of their labors until after they were collected and meted out EQUALLY no matter the labor invested

>>134480001
>Work on commune
>Commune needs chairs
>I don't want to spend my time making Chairs as my Woodcarving skills are for Aesthetic purposes
>Either I cave in and making chairs or we go without chairs.

See how that works?

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>>134480113

Then good luck convincing people to give up their property for redistribution

>>134459660
>>134462295
What isn't shown is that in the ancom society, at first there were 4 ancoms.

One of them realized the four of them were starving to death, and decided to "start a business", i.e., produce some tangible wealth, in the hope that the other three follow suit, so that later on they could all trade, e.g., barter their goods or exchange for some token like a metal that's worthless except that it doesn't rust.

Now we just have to wait until one of the remaining three decides to get up off his ass and make something.

Then there's two.

Finally there's a lone commie, sitting in a tree,
k i s s i n g his fried tongue, which is his penultimate meal before chopping off his dick.

>>134462295
>t. daddy's credit card

>>134457870
There is no such thing as a left libertarian, because you're proposing egalitarianism. Egalitarianism does not match reality.

In order to create a situation where a falsehood replaces reality, a government or some kind of a moral authority with absolute power over people is required, which is what you're advocating for.
If anyone loves licking boots, it's you. Because the only way you can have your false reality is to make everyone lick boots. Although perhaps in your case it's not so much that you love licking boots, but rather you love others licking your boots. You authoritarian cretin.

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>>134479061
>you're making assumptions on how people act as you see it.
I am making observations and arguments based on a historical record of how ideologies are implemented and the actual writings of anarchists. As the great military thinker Carl Von Clausewitz stated "the ideal and reality are two separate things." We can argue ideology until we are both blue in the face but the application of that ideology has to constrain to reality. That is what should be looked at. Ideally in your system we live in a world that resources are unlimited and that people will work for the good of others. Sadly, that is not the case. Resources are limited and people have proven time and time again to be selfish, tribal things. It has also been shown that communism, anarchism, and ancom all suck at what they set out to do.

>the state guarantees violence
According to the anarchists themselves I am guaranteed violence, and if I own a few acres of property I should expect it to happen directly to me. I am exploited by the mob to conform to the application of their ideas. That is not leaving me to do as I will. I am stuck in a prisoner's dilemma. Do I adhere to the laws that the state has or do I fight off the mob that wants to take what I have from me? I'll stick with the laws of the state.

>kulaks
It's funny that leftists throw that word around. If we look at the evidence kulaks were still peasants that may have had an extra cow or potato box more than their neighbors. Essentially they were slightly better off and punished for that.

I will also loosley quote Bakunin, because he is right when he says this.

>someone being hit with a stick won't like the stick anymore if it is called "the peoples stick."

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>>134478886

That's because its a high probability that they are some middle class kid who never done a hard days work in their life.
Is or was at school doing some sort of 'social studies' (you notice that these kids are never studying business or economics..) And spend most of the day being brainwashed by some old communist who had also never done a hard days work in their life.

In an anarchist society, no one would contribute to anyone else.

Granted that theft is inevitable I'd make sure to booby trap my tax.

You could have just asked nicely.

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>>134480322
>commune needs chairs
>it feels good to solve problems and provide for people
>making chairs is not that specialized work
>someone will make chairs if you won't
see: teddy boy's Power Process or every time you've done a favor for a feeble old man or cute girl

>>134480274
you'd receive the fruits of your labor as soon as they were available. you seem to be hung up on the dystopian connotations of the word "equality". no 1984 man is going to be measuring your grain to make sure you have the exact amount as your neighbor. industrialized society can produce in excess and you'd have no real incentive to take much more than you need.

>>134480394
thanks, friend

>>134480965
>Make chairs for me only
>Demand people pay me tribute for chairs
>Give chairs as favors to close friends
>Stop anyone else making chairs with the muscle I earned

I am now the chair king, your system seems flawed.

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>>134480884

So...you don't think warlords and power structures would arise and restart the whole process...AFTER wasting the lives of millions of people?

>>134481280
You just invented the reset button.

Good luck and dog speed.

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>>134457870

Staff Sergeant Kurt Hummel, Military Post Number L 31 605 Lg Pa. Paris, to his local group

Northern Russia, 12 August 1941

Bolshevist conditions are indescribable. I had never imagined that such misery was possible. People here know nothing about electric lights, radio, newspapers and the like. One can't call what they live in houses. There are only shanties with rotten straw roofs. Huge neglected fields lay around. We haven't yet found even a small shop. This is what people call the Soviet paradise. I wish the few outsiders who still remain in Germany could be shipped here. There is misery wherever one looks. One has to see it to realize how beautiful Germany is.

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>>134480481
>Resources are limited and people have proven time and time again to be selfish, tribal things. It has also been shown that communism, anarchism, and ancom all suck at what they set out to do.
resources needn't be unlimited, we already produce more than enough.

selfishness is good! it will no doubt be the primary impulse behind society liberating themselves from capitalist exploitation.
tribalism is fine, why would you not feel a greater love and desire to protect those who you live with? tribalism builds community bonds that make you want to contribute.

>According to the anarchists themselves I am guaranteed violence, and if I own a few acres of property I should expect it to happen directly to me.
expropriation would not require robbing everyone of their homes acquired under the old system. the rich would be the main targets.

>>134481203
>make chairs for only you
>demand people pay you tribute
>someone else has meanwhile made chairs for everyone

>>134473317
>libertarians are always left, im sorry, because they don't enforce a perticular system the community itself doesn't support
who are you kidding

>>134466738
>>134467024
>>134471122
AnCom - 0
AnCap - 1

>usufruct and common property exist for 5,000 years
>capitalism has existed for 300
>capitalism is inevitable

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>>134473371
>but no healthy person wants to sit on their ass all day
come to denbtsland for vacation if you actually believe this, I say this as someone who wants and does sit on my ass all day

>>134457870
>You can't have liberty while you still have unjust hierarchies
define "just", what seems unjust to you based on your personal criteria isn't necessarily objectively unjust

>Why should one human rule over another's life and ability to eat simply because he starts a business or was born into the right family or had the right genetics?
Why not?

I hope you realize your phony humanitarian ideologies are nothing more than ineffective, temporary band-aids to humanity's material and ethical problems, the only actual solution to which is anti-natalism

>>134481720
Good thing we don't and won't live under the Soviet Union then, huh?

>>134457870
> we will build a community based on self-organized freedom
> NO, YOU CANT DISAGREE

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>>134482902
how does it feel to be an unpaid propaganda machine?
>NO, YOU CAN'T DISAGREE
sezwho?

>>134480965
>>making chairs is not that specialized work

Making a shit chair is easy. Making two shit chairs is easier. Making shit chairs gets boring after making one.

Making a good chair is artistic. Making two good chairs is professional. Making good chairs gets boring after making two.

Due to deflation caused by specialization, a professional chair maker can make 10 good chairs and exchange them for labor tokens worth the labor that 10 amateur chair makers would need to spend if they created one chair each.

Guess what? This is a lot more labor than the professional chair maker would have expended.

Specialization is the foundation of economic progress. Comparative advantage, the producer hierarchy, improves things further.

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>>134482702
Every communist country sounded like what you say before the revolution and ended up like this:

Flyer W. M., Res.-Lazarett Salzlwedel to his Cell Leader Schroeder

I have seen the "wonderful workers' paradise" in the Soviet Union with all its terrible misery, and wish that those who thought differently could spend a few weeks here to see and experience what we have. The misery and horror of Bolshevism is terrible.

I hope that volunteering for our proud army may atone for my earlier sins, and that when I am back home, you, dear party member, will accept me as an honest person. In that hope, I send you my warmest greetings.

Heil Hitler!

signed W. M.

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>>134481877
>selfishness is good!
We can agree on something then.

>it will no doubt be the primary impulse behind society liberating themselves from capitalist exploitation.
Is it? Or is it the naivety of a few to try and burn down a system they found no success in.

>tribalism is fine, why would you not feel a greater love and desire to protect those who you live with? tribalism builds community bonds that make you want to contribute.
Tribalism is the death of anarchy, because groups would form to compete with others and the egalitarianism of it would no longer matter. Tribalism is the foundation of the state if we trace it back far enough. It is how humans have organized themselves and evolved into what we are now. I want to contribute, but I don't want to be a slave to the tribe. I should be compensated for my contribution to the tribe.

>expropriation would not require robbing everyone of their homes acquired under the old system. the rich would be the main targets.
What is the cutooff of "the rich." I could be targeted for having a few acres just like the kulaks were killed for having a few cows. It is a vague term with an arbitrary metric.

>>134480965
>you'd receive the fruits of your labor as soon as they were available.
But would these fruits be proportional to the quality of the goods I create?

>>134483100
>sezwho?
>anarchists totally have never carried out extrajudicial killings of political opponents xD

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>>134483102
>Making shit chairs gets boring after making one.
sounds subjective. if chairs are needed one (or more) can push through boredom.
>Making a good chair is artistic.
good thing i don't need to sit on a piece of art
>labor tokens
get this wageslaver out of here
>economic progress
sounds spooky lad

>>134483340
compete how? needs are freely met across an interconnected socialist system. one could only war with other communes to sabotage their own support.
>I want to contribute, but I don't want to be a slave to the tribe. I should be compensated for my contribution to the tribe.
your compensation is your ability to live freely, be provided for, and pursue your own interests in your free time.
>What is the cutooff of "the rich." I could be targeted for having a few acres just like the kulaks were killed for having a few cows. It is a vague term with an arbitrary metric.
of course there's no definite cutoff, it's circumstantial determined by geography, population, and pre-revolutionary conditions. the plan is to every man a home, but the greater ideal is mutual aid, respect, and freedom.
the land is only yours by arbitrary law of a capitalist system, expropriation is making the best use of what's available to the commune, but the ultimate goal of anarchism is to avoid to dominion of man over other men. there's no reason an individual could not be left alone if his "land" was not desperately needed.

>>134484465
that depends on how much you produce and how much you take. nobody's stopping you from being a leech.

>>134484634
>extrajudicial
spook
>killings of political opponents
revolution is not a model for the running anarchist society, but even so it is a violence of liberation, violence towards those who actively exploit those beneath them. anarchism is an ideology which tends towards pacifism in its primary goal. if you want nothing to do with the commune you should be allowed to peacefully live alongside it.

>>134457870
>or had the right genetics
That's where I draw the line, the races are different and birth defects should not be encouraged in any way

>>134459660
i will make an egoist version of this

>>134485083
>revolution
spook

>>revolution is not a model for the running anarchist society, but even so it is a violence of liberation, violence towards those who actively exploit those beneath them. anarchism is an ideology which tends towards pacifism in its primary goal.
ah yes, all those catholic priests exploiting the poor anarchists, they totally deserved to be tortured

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>>134472415
>us

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>>134485654
discussing the sins of the historical anarchist is of no interest to me. i have no relation to it. the torturing of catholic priests is not part of the ideology.

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>>134486003
It clearly is part of the ideology if for the ideology to be enforced you need to be violent towards anyone who you subjectively perceive to be oppressive, it's arbitrary and hypocritical. But then again so is your entire ideology. >>134482697

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>>134485083
>compete how? needs are freely met across an interconnected socialist system. one could only war with other communes to sabotage their own support.
What one tribe wants is not the same as the other. The people of those tribes have different needs, and if we look at the facts cultural differences.

>your compensation is your ability to live freely, be provided for, and pursue your own interests in your free time.
So, what you're saying is that my compensation is I may or may not be able to pursue my own interests if the community decides my skills or labor isn't needed? That doesn't sound very fair.

>of course there's no definite cutoff, it's circumstantial determined by geography, population, and pre-revolutionary conditions.
So, coming to the practical application of an ideal, anyone could be targeted for some arbitrary thing.

>the land is only yours by arbitrary law of a capitalist system
The labor of my ancestors bought that few acres to produce a bounty for themselves with an excess they could sell at market. Is that exactly arbitrary?

>expropriation is making the best use of what's available to the commune
Yet who is to decide that? The tribe? Who leads that tribe or how is it decided? How are they to know that is the best use of it?

>but the ultimate goal of anarchism is to avoid to dominion of man over other men.
I have property that I own I work myself, I am not trying to force my will upon others doing so. Technology allows me to do that.

>there's no reason an individual could not be left alone if his "land" was not desperately needed.
There it is again, arbitrary metrics. Who decides it is desperately needed? The collective that couldn't get their shit together and grow enough food for themselves. I am supposetd to be alble to pursue my own free interests.

>>134457870
>Capitalism IS an unjust hierarchy

Meh, depends on how you define the term (which you haven't done in your entire post fyi). If you take the definition of capitalism to be "exchange of goods and services without the use of force or coercion" then there's nothing wrong with it.

>because he starts a business
A business is a piece of legal fiction created by the state to protect business owners from legal responsibilities. You get rid of the state, you get rid of the corporations by definition.

>You Right-wingers are all the same. You all love licking boots, even the so-called 'Libertarians' amongst you

True, if you really wanna have some fun go to r/libertarian on reddit.

>>134486369
>Yet who is to decide that? The tribe? Who leads that tribe or how is it decided? How are they to know that is the best use of it?
You cannot expect an ideology based upon the abolition of state to have rigid theoretical laws or practices down to a science. Individuals will decide what works for them. There is no one model anarchist society.

In an ancom society what decides who gets to live near the beach, and who lives near the dump? What systems would you implement to ensure both families get an equal quality of life?

>>134457870
You also can't have liberty while being forced to pay for the living costs of others so you tell me why should one human rule over another's life?

>>134465397
You, i.e. your body is your private property. If you disagree with this statement, hand over dem kidneys.

Everything you acquire trough voluntary trade is your private property, by definition, since YOU is your private property.

>How could you have private property without a state anyways?

LOL