Where do the people who want free basic healthcare think that

>>133843497
Gimme that slime, IDC. I want it, I need it, I'm too useless to get it. Give. Me. Sum. Gibs..

>>133843497
Like, old people and stuff.

>>133843497
Drugs, equipment and wages would probably be cheaper if it profit wasn't a factor.

>>133843497

They don't consider it at all, or they offer vague solutions that wouldn't pass the simplest back-of-envelope calculation, like "tax the rich".

These are r-strategists, OP. All they know is free resources.

Dude they have no attention span. The chemicals in the food and water are neuro toxins and the media they watch makes it nearly impossible to be rational.

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PAY

>>133843497
Dude, taxes lmao. One the 1% pay their fair share

>>133843497
"The government"

They think that the government is just some infinite money machine, they have no idea that when the government funds something it means you're funding it.

>>133843497
>Where do the people who want free basic healthcare think that money is going to come from?
The irony is that if the left didn't flood our country with immigrants we probably would be able to pay for healthcare. But as it stands even California can't do it, it double their fucking budget to try and pull that off.

>>133843730
Leaf this isn't fucking star trek. Goods and services require compensation for the economy to work.

>>133843497

They think that money = wealth. That if they just takes millions of dollars of invested money from the top and spend it, that will some how fix everything.
It will be funny when GM, Ford, Apple and all these other companies are forced to increase prices and lay off staff because of massive taxation on investments.

Where do you clowns think tax breaks for the rich comes from? Same place; borrowing, tax raises or cutting in other areas.

The difference is when people have healthcare it actually helps the economy.

>>133843497
Taxes.

>>133844059
They don't contribute anything, because "Muh Government" is evil. They just want healthcare, they don't actually want to work.
Or pay taxes
Or.. volunteer, jesus christ I couldn't imagine.

From taxes. Healthy people can work harder and longer. It's some kind of investment if the corruption and exploitation will be regulated to a minimum.

>>133844252
Give me my nummy, I want it so yummy.

>>133844223
GOOD - then perhaps it'll teach these fuckers that crime and tax evasion whilst your waffling on about the terrible state of the world and homelessness all over your sidewalk reaches epic proportions whilst they get off paying a pitance to a load of cheap foreign labor so some kids hand can bleed putting together there shiny toy.

>>133843730
(((you)))

I don't think they understand that med school and law school are essentially trade schools and somehow equate going to school until 30 for a masters in History is the same as going for a PhD in Pediatrics.
>go to school for 5 years to learn how to pipe a toilet
>go to school for idk years to pipe a heart
Is not the same as
>go to school for 8 years to read some books

>>133844347
Don't say taxes to American's, friendo. Even though they pay more for health insurance than they would if they just got taxed for national healthcare instead.

>>133843497
"basic" healthcare shouldn't BE expensive.
All you need is an improved app to replace a general practitioner, and most drugs should be a lot cheaper than government subsidies and corporate protectionism allows them to be. You don't need a hospital bed for most things. An ambulance ride shouldn't realistically cost 5000 dollars.

>>133843497
> Where do the people who want free basic police coverage think that money is going to come from?
> Where do the people who want free basic fire departments think that money is going to come from?
> Where do the people who want free basic roads and parks think that money is going to come from?
> Where do the people who want free basic national defense think that money is going to come from?

>>133844252

And where do you think the wealth of the rich comes from?
The banks (decreases credit risk by storing wealth)
Interest rates (banks not making money if there is less money stored)
Investments (Stored in major companies, like Walmart, Apple, Microsoft, Google, etc.. that do a lot of the major hiring)
Spending (Rich people buy stuff)
Property (Rich own property, manage and maintain it. If people without wealth buy property, they can't afford to maintain it)

Wealth is necessary for a society to function. You can't borrow (you SHOULDN'T borrow, at least) money without some source of wealth in the background.

White leftists are too stupid to realize the money comes from their fellow whites that aren't retarded fuckups, and that their pet shitskin are too large of a drain on society for the country to afford all their B's communism.

See California and their failure to implement single payer.

Leftist whites are mentally ill and shitskins are a different subspecies of human entirely.

>>133844713
Pets. Pay for my pets, too.

>>133844490

Do you think that money will eliminate these problems?

No. Money isn't wealth, like I said. You can give everyone a million dollars, and nothing will change. The only reason the 1% seem to have so much money, and everyone else seems poor, is that the dollar has lost a lot of value as a currency of trade.
If you just take all the invested money and drop it to the bottom, the majority of it will be wasted on stupid shit (like drugs, alcohol, trinkets from China, consumer goods that have no resale or investment value) and the prices of real goods will soar because of the increase in money.

Adding tons of money into the system isn't going to eliminate poverty. Wealth isn't something you can just go out and spend. Being wealthy doesn't mean the rich have a lot of spending money, they are simply invested. If you took the investments away and gave them to the Government, we wouldn't be any richer. Everything would be the same, and we'd continue to jump into debt.

The fact is, society as it is now costs more to run then it's worth. If we don't cut back on Government spending and consumers lending, we'll go bankrupt really soon.

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>>133843497
Why do private healthcare companies in germany have more money than ever before?
Do your homework.

>>133845034
*public healthcare comapnies

>>133845034

Maybe it's because Germany doesn't pay for it's national defense.
So on top of America paying for it's own healthcare, they also pay for Europe's national defense and most of of Nato.

Socialism works great when you are Welfare from the US.

>>133845034
>>133845128

See >>133843731. Stop enabling the r-strategists who innately believe that resources are free.

>>133845034
https://www.deutsche-apotheker-zeitung.de/news/artikel/2017/06/08/krankenkassen-weiterhin
>first quarter of the year
>620 million Euro surplus
>even with refugees

Universal medicine would produce veterinary care for tax cattle. It's optimized, cheap, and allergic to disruptive innovation. Men deserve to live forever. It will only happen if we are allowed to allocate our resources in accordance with our wills - NOT the will of some closed-off narcissistic bureaucrat more concerned with protecting their job than advancing the public weal.

>>133843730
Drugs and equipment develop faster in the US than in all other nations combined, and it's precisely because of the profit motive that they do it.

By the way, treatment would be cheaper in the US if two things changed:
1. People paid directly for their care.
2. Countries which import American drugs stopped using their market access as negotiation leverage.

Here in the UK we can't get access to many newer cancer drugs because our government bars their importation until our NHS can buy them at rip-off prices.

Eventually the drug companies cave, and Americans are stuck with the bill for all the R&D.

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>>133843497
Ideally it would come from doctors forced to give free healthcare to the poor in exchange for forgiveness of medical school debt.

We will have bacta tanks and medical droids soon though so that shouldn't be necessary.

>>133844981
This. Regardless of all factors, wealth inequality, corruption, war, etc the only thing that reduces poverty and increases quality of life for everyone is increased gdp. More stuff means more stuff for everyone. Money is secondary. The problem is the current system has built in inefficiencies, particularly in finance, that prevent people from working or doing work that is productive (ie, increases gdp).

The jews https://youtu.be/XqS2g5WlMgM

>>133843497
people who work

>>133845526
>in exchange for forgiveness of medical school debt.
So you want to deny mr. Noseberg his interest? What a nazi, literally Hitler, i cant even.

>>133843497
From the trillion+ dollars we save by switching to an NHS-style system?

Wait OP, you didn't go and make a snarky post like that without having actually looked at healthcare costs, did you? Because that would be gay as fuck and pathetic...

>>133845535
If the economy was truly healthy, people wouldn't be bitching so much about the 1% and the necessity of some form of socialism/social welfare.

This desire for Universal Health and increasing minimum wage doesn't come from fellow man's desire to improve the lives of the poor, it comes from the average man's desire to get back to the statues quo their parents lived in.

The US Government is $19 trillion dollars in debt just trying to maintain the "status quo", well it talks about how the Economy is recovering.

If people try to force socialism on an indebted society, it's going to be a disaster. Our debts won't be written off, they'll come out of the sales taxes, the food prices, the gas prices, the rent.. everywhere banks are invested.

>>133845526
>Ideally it would come from doctors forced to give free healthcare to the poor in exchange for forgiveness of medical school debt.
That would fuck incentives beyond repair.

The cost of medical school would skyrocket, the number of "poor" would skyrocket, doctors would leave the US.

What you just proposed is the most retarded thing I have heard an American say about healthcare.

>>133843497
Evil White men of course

>>133843497

The rich evil corporations that will pay extra taxes and totally not pass the cost down to consumers. They will also cry when small local businesses collapse and now they are forced to shop at Evil Corp. They'll also complain when the supply of Doctors dwindles and they have to wait a long time to get the free service they are clearly entitled to.

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>>133843497
It would be nice if they only wanted basic care. Like if someone broke their arm. What they really want is free care for all problems like cancer or a brain deformation. The doctors should have a say and at some time everything that can be done, maybe shouldn't be done. Even that is a bad way of saying it because it is just more money for the doctors to do everything!!

Slaves. The democrats wanted slaves to pick their cotton in the past and today they want slaves to provide medical care.

>>133843497
>>133845896
this, you dumb burgers spend more than any country for healthcare and have the worst.

just like your shit tier internet

>>133846085
This. Their answer to everything is slavery. It's immoral.

>>133843497
What needs to happen is dismantling the big pharma. Basic healthcare is extremely cheap. ((Companies)) buying patents for drugs for pennies and then selling shit like epipens for $600 with zero research or effort is the real problem. If you socialize health care, its fine that everyone gets treatment, but the amount of bullshit, cheating, lying, stealing, fraud and big pharma fucking you over that happens is insane.

>>133845896
>From the trillion+ dollars we save by switching to an NHS-style system?
The savings you envision will never materialise.

>Wait OP, you didn't go and make a snarky post like that without having actually looked at healthcare costs, did you?
You have no idea how much figures on healthcare spending are muddled with. Here in the UK, our NHS lobbies the government to prevent the approval of American drugs until the drug company sells at well under market value.

An NHS in the US would completely kill innovation, and force drug development into the public sector.

>>133843730
of course, also if unicorns rode rainbows there would be no war and poverty in the world.

>>133844635
Ambulance ride is not $5K, the day in the good hospital is $10K. It has nothing to do with doctors, doctors don't get that money, it's the racket. The current system is mostly based on fraud, that's why the costs are out of control and exponentially growing. Most Americans think muh doctors, but doctors are not getting most of that money. It's insurance companies, and fraud. In the end this system will collapse and we will go government based healthcare, which given US government's record will be worst than NK healthcare. Most burgers don't understand that. Our defense spending is the same shit.

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>>133843497
Just print more dumbass

>>133846204
That's because those dumb burgers make all the drugs and equipment that you deadbeat frogs use.

And you deadbeat frogs refuse to pay for them properly, forcing American citizens to pick up YOUR bill.

The majority of national healthcare countries do that.

from the rich

>>133843497
If you kicked out the spics and the niggers, you could not only afford both universal health care and free education, but the entire deficit would disappear.

>>133843497

money is a fiction.

>>133843497
Taxes. If it works here, why not over there?

>>133843980
51% of all tax dollars come from Americans making over 300k a years. Seems like its the other side thats not paying its fair share to me.

>>133846516
Now this right here is the real answer. We pay insane prices in america because other nations don't pay the actual cost of the drug or service.

>>133843497
Complete strangers who won't hold them accountable.

>>133843497
>Where do the people who want free basic healthcare think that money is going to come from?

white taxpayers

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>>133843497
People who don't understand how little wealth there is in the world right now.

The entire planet earth is worth about $5 Quadrillion USD

If you liquidized EVERY ASSET IN THE WORLD INTO GOLD (and I mean through magic, 100% conversion of all non-gold things on earth made into their retail value in gold), and evenly divided it between the entire population of the world, we'd all get ONE 12kg gold bar.

That's it.

That's your share of all the wealth in the world.
Less than $500,000.

You'd have no planet, but at least you'd have your gold bar.

>>133843497
Where do you think the money for endless wars comes from?

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>>133843497
>Where do the people who want free basic healthcare think that money is going to come from?
The cost savings of universal care.

The USA pays just a bit under double what Canada pays. While delivering only partial care (even with the ACA) to most people.

The outcomes for almost all life threatening illnesses are without single digit percentage points, while life expectancy is slightly higher in Canada.

It's the economy of scale and the economy of coverage rather than the economy of billing. In the state of New Hampshire their are more healthcare administrators than the nation of Canada while having about 1/32th the population.

The US private system is 32 times less efficient that government run healthcare in that metric.

~

Not only is Canada better at delivering healthcare per dollar spent that transfers over to businesses that don't need to spend as much on expensive healthcare packages for employees, making those businesses more efficient.

>>133846271
You would also kill investment, and stop researching new drugs, so you'll have to start a new research tax
But then you'll need researchers, so you'll have to create a new pay wage tax
Then they'll need a union, so you'll have to tax that...

Why not just allow competition and let the prices drop naturally?

only /fit/ people should receive government subsidized healthcare

>>133843497
The same place the rest of it comes from, thin air! Deficits don't matter, go back to work goy.

>>133847166
http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/16/heres-the-cost-of-war-for-each-major-conflict-in-americas-239-year-history/

$2 Trillion is the total cost of every war in America since WW2.

Current US debt is over 19 Trillion.

Try again.

The taxes that I pay?

>>133843497
white people

>>133847369

>The same place the rest of it comes from, thin air! Deficits don't matter, go back to work goy.

This x 1,000,000

Democracy is nothing more than a prole vacation, but it'll be fun to watch all the people who believed they could administer an unsustainable standard of health care to entire populations without cost die painfully from easily-treatable conditions after the total economic and social collapse

>>133847225
Obamacare made things more expensive, not less.

>>133847166
Wars aren't that expensive.

>>133847308
Because they spend more on advertising than on research.

Also almost all our medical advances happened between 1920 and 1970. What's happened between 1970 and today is about 1/8th what happened before while costing about 134 times as much (as reported by costs on the balance sheets of public companies)

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>>133843497
Uhhhh

>>133847641
>Obamacare made things more expensive, not less.
Yes. Because ACA was corporate welfare. Not UHC, or NHC.

>>133847166
It's stolen from future generations.

>>133843497
From white people. Obama promoted an indirect way for nigger to rob white folks.

>>133847737

yeah...
http://time.com/4858491/zika-vaccine-birth-defects/

>>133843497
from the government duh

>>133847308
You think they invested and research in this shit? Look up how many drugs that were being sold to the public and saving lives at reasonable prices and then were bought by huge companies and had the cost increased by thousands of percent.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3243938/Ex-hedge-funder-32-hated-man-internet-defends-jacking-prices-AIDS-medication-5500.html

This should be illegal. The people involved should be injected with AIDS and locked up without treatment knowing they will die a slow agonizing death. This is not fair competition. This is what I'm talking about.

http://nationalpost.com/g00/news/canada/this-is-why-canada-has-the-second-highest-medication-costs-in-the-world/wcm/75f10541-c97b-41c3-a581-281912fead71?i10c.referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca%2F

Epipen is $600 in America, yet its $120 in Canada. It's because they are getting fucked by pharmaceutical giants that cannot be regulated because "that would cause them to stop trying to save lives and research would end if you dont let them make billions and trillions of dollars". Its bullshit. Its a lie. They are buying OLD patents and current drugs that are cheap and have been researched and jacking the price up. These people are evil and need to die.

>>133847815

And what are all the insurance companies going to do?
Fold?
What about their investments and debt? You would destroy the economy overnight by putting health insurance companies out of business.
Not to mention the US tax system couldn't fund the insurance system without managing healthcare prices, which means you end up in a Canada situation, where Doctors are over worked, under paid and no one wants to be a doctor anymore.
Private clinics and private hospitals would be a God send in Canada. If the poor want socialism, let them pay for it.

>>133848184
>pharmaceutical giants

And what are you going to do? Dismantel giant pharma companies, kill regulation, prevent them from making money and turn them into slave labour?

AIDs treatment doesn't cure aids. It's just a treatment. You still have AIDs. I don't want to pay for people have unprotected anal sex. If you want to take risks, understand the consequences.

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Idk OR care because I work for a fortune 500 company and they hired me on as 6 month contractor- (with the chance of future employment). They have a habit of stringing people along for years before actually hiring them. Just like how "successful" guys sometimes do to girls. Both are a shitty practice making the world a worse place everyone.

I take on ALL OF THE RISKS for 48K a year AND MOST OF THAT IS ALREADY TAXED!

So fuck you, PAY ME! I don't care anymore because nothing makes sense anymore. I know what's going to happen to me and my parents and everyone in the long run, so fuck it!

I'm living everyday to fullest and getting ready to kick ass and get revenge.

In my short 5 plus years of working for various companies and employers government engineering firms provide the best IRO for their employees. So

>>133843497
>Where do the people who want free basic healthcare think that money is going to come from?
Out of thin air.

Seriously.

I asked them.

>"We'll just print more money."

>>133848194
>And what are all the insurance companies going to do?
>Fold?
Give up their medical coverage branches and focus on other insurable sectors.

>What about their investments and debt? You would destroy the economy overnight by putting health insurance companies out of business.
Their investments don't go anywhere. They just lose a portion of their potential income streams.

All those premiums you pay for insurance? They are all used directly for investing. The money they use for policy payouts comes from the return on their investments.

If you cut all healthcare premiums and all healthcare payouts the insurance companies would lose no profit and would simply grow slightly slower.


>Not to mention the US tax system couldn't fund the insurance system without managing healthcare prices, which means you end up in a Canada situation, where Doctors are over worked, under paid and no one wants to be a doctor anymore.
Doctors are overworked and underpaid in the US. Everyone in the world is overworked and underpaid because that's how you get easy efficiencies out of workers and businesses.

>Private clinics and private hospitals would be a God send in Canada. If the poor want socialism, let them pay for it.
If the wealthy want workers they can pay for it.

>>133848395
>And what are you going to do?
Offer them a deal to stay in business under different regulations or to close down their operations and see how much money they can make doing something else.

>>133849027
>Give up their medical coverage branches and focus on other insurable sectors.
You understand there is consierable investment there?
That money isn't just sitting in a bank, it's wealth. It's spread out over the economy.

The investments die, because there's no guaranteed income anymore, there's no interest rates. It destroys the financial sectors health insurance is invested in.
http://fortune.com/2014/09/24/health-insurance-invest-startups/

"Money" isn't wealth.

>Doctors are overworked and underpaid in the US. Everyone in the world is overworked and underpaid because that's how you get easy efficiencies out of workers and businesses.

So let's make more inventive to hire doctors?
>If the wealthy want workers they can pay for it.
If the poor want healthcare, they can work.

>>133849192
Again, closing the insurance industry doesn't just hurt the insurance industry. All of that money is invested, it's a huge part of the financial sector.

Universal Healthcare saving money is a joke. It costs more money because there is no incentive not to use it.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/true-cost-of-health-care-to-average-family-is-11k-per-year-report-1.2525114

One of the big issues in the USA is the lack of knowing the price. Absolutely nobody knows what a gallon bladder removal will cost until after the fact.

And I get each case is different but they could start with: the doctor charges this, the OR costs this, these are the typical drugs, and a two night's stay is that. It just doesn't exist. I have seen some places post like insane "averages" for knee surgery or shit that have no logic in getting to that price.

Imagine if you went into an Apple store and pointed at a laptop asking the price. They have no clue and tell a bill will be sent later that you must pay. They'd not sell much I imagine.

>>133849519
Notable
> The report also found that the cost of health care is on the rise, increasing 1.6 times faster than the average income.

1.6% interest in investment from an insurance company is reasonable, a private company could technically sustain itself by investing additional income to offset unexpected price increases.

On the other hand, a universal system, like Canada, would get demolished if a new Aid's-like disease rapidly spread across the country. We would just go further and further into debt.

>>133849288
>You understand there is consierable investment there?
Yeah but none of it goes away if the premiums from insurance stop.
They have already made those investments.

>That money isn't just sitting in a bank, it's wealth. It's spread out over the economy.
It's invested all over the economy. Some of it is in banks or rather as loans to banks. Some is stocks. Some property. Some direct partnerships.

>The investments die, because there's no guaranteed income anymore, there's no interest rates. It destroys the financial sectors health insurance is invested in.
No it doesn't because health insurance investment directly competes with all other insurance investments. This just removes a small portion of the insurance companies stream of investment money. It also removes a small portion of their insurance liabilities, and cuts all the administration costs.

>"Money" isn't wealth.
Money isn't the only form of wealth, but it is wealth.

>So let's make more inventive to hire doctors?
The doctor's in the US operate under a guild practice to keep membership low and wages high. The AMA creates the high work load with limited manpower on purpose.

>If the poor want healthcare, they can work.
They do by working and supporting the economy; buying and consuming, working and earning.

>>133843497
It comes from taxes and no it isn't free. But if you think about it, you actually should have at least 500% higher salary, since that's how much rich people stolen money, so yes, we could say it's free, but not free for rich people.

>>133843497
From implementing a tax bracket system into wall street.

>>133849519
>All of that money is invested, it's a huge part of the financial sector.

And none of that investment is lost, removed or ended.

>Universal Healthcare saving money is a joke. It costs more money because there is no incentive not to use it.
It's a fact. As a percent of GDP Canada spends just a bit under half as much as the USA. Yet delivers care that's almost identical in terms of outcomes.

Also their are huge savings from preventative care that are not realized in the USA to the degree they are in UHC systems. In the US system it's in the interest of healthcare providers to have people get sick with highly profitable illnesses. In UHC the exact reverse is true.

>>133844654
Well, since the government doesn't have a job to earn the money it spends, they will have to steal it.

>>133849822
>increasing 1.6 times faster than the average income.
>1.6% interest in investment from an insurance company is reasonable, a private company could technically sustain itself by investing additional income to offset unexpected price increases.

160% growth of revenue. Which is not reasonable.

>>133850414
>Well, since the government doesn't have a job to earn the money it spends, they will have to steal it.
Would you support for profit businesses owned and operated by the government?

>>133850307
There's enough money to pay 100 times healthcare for all citizen without changing any tax whatsoever.
£1 billion in 1947 had the same buying power as £31 billion in 2017.
$1 billion in 1947 had the same buying power as $13 billion in 2017.
Inflation is the big steal.

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>>133849519
It's about cost structures, does marginal cost rise over quantity or drop?

If marginal cost is falling, it's more efficient to have fewer firms produce all the things rather than many firms producing all the things. Healthcare insurance has substantial fixed costs (licencing fees, infrastructure etc.) as well as higher risk selling to only a few customers, a much more consistent return and therefore profitable return is gained by having all customers go to one firm instead. At the same time health insurance companies have a tiny marginal cost, the additional cost to put someone on a healthcare plan is maybe a few dollars spread out over many many people.

Therefore it is more cost efficient to have only one firm and that firm can either be a single private monopoly or a government insurer. Government insurer is preferred because private monopolies can jack up the price w/o competition. Therefore universal healthcare is the cheapest.

>>133849889
>Yeah but none of it goes away if the premiums from insurance stop.
Yes it does, because they make money and investment it. Other companies invest that money. If they income stops, their investments stop. Money gets spent, and it does not return. Therefor, other companies have to make up the difference by borrowing at a higher interest rate, or increasing prices to increase their wealth.
Money is not wealth.

>It's invested all over the economy. Some of it is in banks or rather as loans to banks. Some is stocks. Some property. Some direct partnerships.
Yes, and if the companies fold, they'll take it out of the economy, pay of their loans, pay off their employees, and close shop. Billions in investment will be withdrawn overnight.

>No it doesn't because health insurance investment directly competes with all other insurance investments.
Investments don't compete. They are invested.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/w_DietAndFitness/health-insurance-companies-invest-billions-fast-food-stock/story?id=10392603

They large parts of companies. You can't just pull this wealth from the Economy.

>Money isn't the only form of wealth, but it is wealth.
Money is a currency, it's a form of trade. It's not wealth. Printing money doesn't make people rich. Taking money from people and giving it away doesn't create wealth. This is just going to create more inflation by converted invested wealth into cash. The wealth, itself, has to come from somewhere. Generally in the form of prices or time.

>The doctor's in the US operate under a guild practice to keep membership low and wages high. The AMA creates the high work load with limited manpower on purpose.
In a Universal healthcare system, it depends on what public healthcare can afford, not what their union agrees too.

>They do by working and supporting the economy; buying and consuming, working and earning.
They can buy healthcare, if they need it. They can buy an iphone if they don't. Not all work is equal.

>>133849889
Money is a form of ownership, bonds are a form of ownership. National debt is bonds, money is decided by financial elite. The end goal is always ownership. Money is nothing but paper, you can wipe your ass with it, it's some people who decide how much money is worth and it's 1 phone call that can say credit rating should be dropped, but it still wasn't dropped for USA, because USA owns all credit rating companies, so they devalue money in Amazon so farmers cut trees for bread and overvalue land in casinos, big cities where they have their financial structures.

>>133846813
As if they were makeing 300k a year because of their hardwork only. Stop being a delusional fag.

>>133850549
For how long, a year?
Then that invested money no longer makes money because it's loaned or spent.
Then there's no wealth to spend on healthcare, because it spent it all giving everyone a years worth of value.

>>133850605
Healthcare costs always rise with inflation, at the very least. Without some form of profit, costs go up and taxes go up.

>>133850884
If you convert ownership of an invested (something that gives return) into money (something that is spent, and does give a return), you are destroying wealth.
This isn't sustainable. You are just burning existing organizations to the ground, and spending all the current value, instead of maintaining them and using only a small portion of their income for spending.

>>133850980

And of the 200k they put in the bank, what % does the bank make a year in interest?
How much does the bank spend trying to keep your overdraft active?

>>133850605
Incidentally this is the same reason governments supply water systems, army, police & fire departments etc. They too have falling marginal cost structures. It's cheaper for one firm to do it and between a private monopoly and a government most prefer the government because a government has public accountability.

>>133851004
I don't disagree with your reply to me but none of what you said contradicted my case. Yes healthcare costs go up as do most things with inflation. The costs are still lower under one rather than many providers.

>>133843497
White people

>>133850821
>Yes it does,
No. You are 100% wrong.
You seem to think investments are money pits you throw money in endlessly rather than sources of money. They get back more than they put in. That's the very basic of an investment.

>Money is not wealth.
Money is a form of wealth.

>Yes, and if the companies fold, they'll take it out of the economy, pay of their loans, pay off their employees, and close shop. Billions in investment will be withdrawn overnight.
That's extremely unlikely, also the point of insurance companies is that they make money on their investments.

They would fire their insurance side employees because they are unneeded. But those investment side employees would stay because they would still be making investments with the returns their past investments are still making them. As well as other aspect of the insurance market. Healthcare insurance companies are the same as property insurance, auto insurance and so on. Yes they are broken into different legal groups but they operate under the same corporate structure

>Investments don't compete. They are invested.
What? That's nonsense. They compete with what they invest.

>You can't just pull this wealth from the Economy.
It's not removed.

>Money is a currency, it's a form of trade. It's not wealth.
It is wealth because it is accepted for good and services.

>In a Universal healthcare system, it depends on what public healthcare can afford, not what their union agrees too.
Has nothing to do with letting the AMA set the standards for doctors, rather than a simple objective standard.

>They can buy healthcare, if they need it. They can buy an iphone if they don't. Not all work is equal.
Healthcare is a cost of employers having employees.
Don't like it? Fuck off. You also need to pay for worker education, worker protection (military and police) a legal system and so on.

Exclude any of those demands of workers and your consumer base and worker base vanishes.

>>133851429
>I don't disagree with your reply to me but none of what you said contradicted my case. Yes healthcare costs go up as do most things with inflation. The costs are still lower under one rather than many providers.

Because providers also make a profit, so health insurance companies can afford to spend more and prices can increase.
But this is also related to supply and demand, and the money supply. Costs are going up, because dollars are risky with current US national debt levels. People don't want to hold onto money, they want it invested.

There's also massive risk of people getting healthcare who are going to cost up to $1 in treatment for preexisting conditions that health insurance companies in the US are forced to take on.

Then there are the things I agree with Ben Shapiro on. The market needs known prices and competition.

>>133851004
Money, bonds, loans are just forms of ownership over goyim. Money has no value without people putting value on it, there is no magic fairy dust on money, it's the financial people who decide how much it is worth. Investors and money don't create anything at all, people create with their hands, their machines. It you that decided to enslave yourself with loans so you need investors. Why do you need loans? Because firstly they don't give you enough money, secondly they raise the prices so you can't buy it easily. Somebody decided that people should be enslaved, so some can have everything while others nothing. We could have a system where we wouldn't need money. You could say somebody who works 2 hours can buy a sammich, somebody who works x number of time can buy this and that from somebody else who makes this and that. Money is needed so elites can exist, money logically isn't needed at all.

>>133851689
>You seem to think investments are money pits you throw money in endlessly rather than sources of money. They get back more than they put in. That's the very basic of an investment.

It is a money pit. If companies don't make money, they spend the invested money and you lose money. Investment is only valuable if a company can make return on your investment. If companies don't have invested money to spend, they can't invest as much into their products, and they compensate with increased prices or labour costs.

>Money is a form of wealth.
It's part of wealth. Money is a currency of trade. Having money is only worth what you spend it on. Taking all the money in the world and spreading it around won't make people rich or wealthy, it will just give everyone the same handful of useless money that everyone else has.

>That's extremely unlikely
Look at the housing bubble. When people pull investment money, it breaks shit fast.

>They compete with what they invest.
They invest to make money, not to force competition. Indirect consequence of investment at best. They most likely invest in the competition as well, investing in an industry in it's whole.

>It's not removed.
Insurance companies with no profit will remove their money. They have debts to pay.

>It is wealth because it is accepted for good and services.
It's desired because it's not abutment. If you create an abundance of currency, people will just expect more currency for the goods and services.
>Healthcare is a cost of employers having employees.
Yes, it's a benefit they can pay for. Or not pay for.
Don't like it? Change jobs. Take a pay cut and get health insurance instead. Eitherway, you are already paying for it.

>Exclude any of those demands of workers and your consumer base and worker base vanishes.
No, it just moves overseas where they will work without healthcare for a fraction of the wealth.

>>133851716
>Money, bonds, loans are just forms of ownership over goyim

They are wealth, I agree. But if you take away wealth from the top and spend it, you will quickly kill all growth.

Giving everyone money isn't going to make people rich, it's just going to print a lot of money. Costs will increase quickly to match. If you try to take all the wealth from the elite, all the invested money, you are just going to create massive hyper inflation, and prices are going to quickly increase because banks/corporations/farms needs to regain their lost financial support.

>>133852576
We don't need to take wealth from top, we need to kill the top. We don't need money at all. Do you realize how many useless jobs we cut from existence if we remove money? All those loan makers are money people, they shift money, increase prices, don't produce anything all in reality, they just jerking around. If we would remove money we would live a much happier and cleaner lives, since you would work for some time and then could buy certain things. Now you can work and work and still can't buy things, while the top makes more in 1 day than you in entire life. Why would you even discuss anything with people who clearly steal money and control the financial system? Democracy is retard. We should be killing them one by one, change the system, not trying to reinvent the wheel.

>>133851704
Still not sure where you're going with the first para. Only really responding to "Universal Healthcare saving money is a joke.", which it's not. It's empirically cheaper and the economic theory I explained shows why.

preexisting conditions exist but the extra cost of that risk is benign if you spread it over the whole population. Especially young healthy people who don't usually buy insurance.

The market does need prices and competition and in industries with a rising marginal cost curve I agree. But certain industries have a tenancy to face market failure and health insurance is one of those industries along with the police and the fire service that is simply cheaper and more cost effective under one firm.

>>133843497
>Where do the people who want free basic healthcare think that money is going to come from?
You're a racist.

>>133852946

Again, killing 10 people isn't going to rebalance the economy.

You'll still be poor. This is why socialism fails. This is why communism failed in Russia

Money isn't wealth. Rich people don't consume much more resources than the average person, but they are heavily invested. They are wealthy.
If you kill them and divide up what they own, you'll get pennies and kill all growth from it.

Loan makers make loans under the assumption that you'll invest the money, and in return make a profit and pay them back. If you just write off all the loans, you'll get the same problem. Trillions of dollars worth of cash injected into the market via write offs, prices will sky rocket.

You being a poor fag is caused by you being poor. You are not worth anything. Killing rich people and handing out cash isn't going to make worthless plebs rich. The countries economy won't change. The leaders will have more, and the poor will have less. Instead of having 100 worthless dollars, you'll have a million worthless dollars.

Spending all our wealth really fast isn't going to make our lives better. That's why you are supposed to save up and buy something.

>>133853073
Because I'm dealing with the financial reality of the current state of the US economy, not a health care system that was implemented decades ago, like our countries.

>>133852946
So we shouldn't reinvent the wheel but reinvent the wheel by killing those at the top of it and instating a system which rewards those for working over those who do not.

This is literally our society as it stands today, just that some whose parents worked so hard
that now their children don't have to work.

So what's the problem commie?

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>>133843851
FOR

>>133843497
>money
>value

Cool meme from before the 70's

>>133852409
>It is a money pit.
The whole point of insurance is that people give you money and you invest it making money on that investment. With a large enough pool of insured people you have a very steady money flow from premiums and a steady outflow of coverage you pay out.

As a smart insurance company you rig it so that in is always more than out and you invest the difference. Over time the amount of money earned from being invested is earning you vastly more money than your insurance premiums.

>If companies don't make money, they spend the invested money and you lose money.
Well then you are shitty at the investment side. Many companies make all their money only on investing money. Insurance companies just happen to have a means to constantly collect money and a constant smaller outflow.

>Having money is only worth what you spend it on.
Yeah I'm sorta assuming that we are talking about having an economy to work with. Able to exchange money for goods and services.

>When people pull investment money
No money is removed. Premiums are not returned to the insured if the company stops offering insurance.

>They invest to make money, not to force competition.
Investments are competition. Different investment banks, insurance companies, funds and so on all compete with each other to earn the most money for the lowest risk.

>Insurance companies with no profit...They have debts to pay.
Their profit comes from investments.

>It's desired because it's not abutment.
We are not talking monetary policy here, just that money is a form of wealth.

>Yes, it's a benefit they can pay for. Or not pay for.
Your business is fail if all your workers and customers have no healthcare very quickly.
>No, it just moves overseas where they will work without healthcare for a fraction of the wealth.
And should be locked out of the market they refuse to support.

Do you think public education is a net positive for a nation and all the companies and peoples within it?

>>133853665

Your health is an investment, you should be rewarded for investing in yourself.

Every year you don't visit a doctor, you should get a cheque in the mail..

>>133843497

The mint? We literally produce money out of thin air. We don't even really have to print it. Most money is just data now. Money is not a scarce or conserved resource.

>>133843497
A lot of people will say "money doesnt exist", and with some further poking they'll tell you "China is going to rule the world because they own (insert portion) of our debt".

Piece that logic together and you'll have an answer,
Protip, it only takes three words.

>>133847225
You are a legit mongoloid, America has THE BEST hospitals and doctors. You realize asians and indians come from across the world just to go to an american med school and become an american doctor. Also good luck waiting 3mnths to get your appendix removed with socialist healthcare, private is the best way, the gov, any gov, takes the CHEAPEST route.

>>133854049
>A lot of people will say "money doesnt exist"

It is as real as the space ships in movies. It's all computer generated. We left the gold standard a long time ago.

>>133843730
typical leaf

free healthcare like in europe is horrible:
- not enough place and ressources for everyone
- tons of people abusing/overusing the system
- they kick you out of hospital asap, when they even let you stay there
- and you STILL pay gigantic amounts of taxes for it

>>133849889
the poor people who benefit from gov healthcare dont contribute at all, go fuck yourself right in the ass. If you live in america and arent a complete fucking loser you can make 120K+ a year and live a cushy life while being able to afford your own healthcare, legit truck drivers can make 120k a year, sry but your nig nog friends prly cant get jobs like that with all their felonies but oh well.

>>133853871
>The whole point of insurance is that people give you money and you invest it making money on that investment. With a large enough pool of insured people you have a very steady money flow from premiums and a steady outflow of coverage you pay out.

That is correct. All of the money is invested, it will be removed from the economy to pay off debts and assets. They will also stop injected future capital, which means businesses will need to find other ways to get investments, either reducing labour costs or increasing prices.

>Well then you are shitty at the investment side. Many companies make all their money only on investing money. Insurance companies just happen to have a means to constantly collect money and a constant smaller outflow.

I'm not talking about insurance companies. I'm talking about companies they invest in, normally big companies like Google, GM and IBM.

>Yeah I'm sorta assuming that we are talking about having an economy to work with. Able to exchange money for goods and services.
But the economy is the goods and services, not the money. Giving someone more money doesn't make the goods better or services better.

>No money is removed. Premiums are not returned to the insured if the company stops offering insurance.
Insurance companies will remove money from the economy, billions of dollars.

>Investments are competition
Don't agree. So I'll leave it.

>Their profit comes from investments.
It comes from insurance payments.

>We are not talking monetary policy here, just that money is a form of wealth.
Yes we are, because socialism challenges the foundations of monetary policy in the US. You can't just print money and pay for things. That's not how the economy functions.

>Your business is fail if all your workers and customers have no healthcare very quickly.
Not in China.

>And should be locked out of the market they refuse to support.
That will cause prices to increase.

>>133843497
If government would take its filthy fucking hand out of the equation it would be better. Government regulation should only apply to enviornmental matters (protecting things like natural beauties Great Lakes, etc.) And the workforce to protect workers (fuck unions)

>>133843497
Her face is creeping me out.

>>133843497
The kikes that you kept sucking their dicks?

>>133853871
>Do you think public education is a net positive for a nation and all the companies and peoples within it?

Not anymore. I don't think it really teaches kids anything of much value anymore. It's more like a day care at this point.

I honestly believe a pirate education system that actually fails people and only teaches courses you request would be better these days. I don't really want kids learning about transexuality and proper methods of gay oral sex in the 6th grade, or about social welfare and the benefits of socialism, then forces them into the private sector.

>>133854074
>You realize asians and indians come from across the world just to go to an american med school and become an american doctor.
And Indians come to learn computer programing but most are incompetent at graduation.
Also not all Asians are the same.

>>133843497
From the same people who pay welfare, and they better pay up.

>>133843497
Rich people

>>133843497
Somebody else's wallet. These people are OK with theft as long as it doesn't happen to them.

>>133843497
They are not that stupid, they know it's from working white people

They just don't care. They'd rape and torture your babies to death while laughing.

They are your enemies who hate you, never forget that

>>133854924
Until they leave your cunt.

>>133854974

>These people are OK with theft as long as it doesn't happen to them.

No, they're OK with any negative consequence as long as it doesn't happen to them. There's a reason the group of people who believe in redistributive schemes like universal healthcare are generally the same group that are for BLM, for unlimited immigration by savages from the third world, etc.

It's r-selection, anon. Import threats and then insulate yourself from them so it's the K-strategists that are put in danger.

>>133854478
>it will be removed from the economy to pay off debts and assets.
You don't pay off an assets... But what makes you think the debts of an insurance company are large enough to cause panic selling of their investments?
Most mature insurance companies are the ones making loans not taking them.

>They will also stop injected future capital
No. It's just one aspect of the insurance market. It's not going to end any real noticeable amount of investment.

>I'm not talking about insurance companies. I'm talking about companies they invest in, normally big companies like Google, GM and IBM.
Which make money by selling goods and services. Some borrow money to expend and some do no. They are not going to suffer any meaningful way if the healthcare insurance market goes away.

>But the economy is the goods and services, not the money.
It's very hard to run a developed economy without money.
>Giving someone more money doesn't make the goods better or services better.
Maybe not, but efficiency by reducing waste is a good thing.

>Insurance companies will remove money from the economy, billions of dollars.
Why? They are literally making money from those investments.


>>Their profit comes from investments.
>It comes from insurance payments.
No. Yes some does, but the vast majority comes from investments.

>Yes we are, because socialism challenges the foundations of monetary policy in the US. You can't just print money and pay for things. That's not how the economy functions.
Who's saying that?

I'm saying UHC is more efficient than private healthcare so you can lower the amount people pay and get the same service by changing the structure.
The amount spent on healthcare would fall.

>Not in China.
You think China doesn't have healthcare?

>That will cause prices to increase.
Maybe. But it would also return money into the system giving people more money to spend, Which would lead to increases in sales and the economy of scale lowering prices.

>>133855460
>...they're OK with any negative consequence as long as it doesn't happen to them.

That's because they don't have anything or contribute anything. Protesting isn't a job. They have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
They'll quickly realize that things don't function automatically and Tesla and Google's robots of the future dream is just another investment scam.

>>133854650
>Not anymore. I don't think it really teaches kids anything of much value anymore.

Well that's because you almost surely grew up in a nation with education.

It's all quite easy...

You introduce another pre-tax withholding along the same lines as social security. You have employers match that amount and they still spend less this way than they currently do paying for health insurance for their employees.

You can save Social Security for the next 100 years by simply raising the taxable cap to 250,000.

There you go. Everyone pays in. Employers pay a share which is still less than what they pay now. Social Security can pick up any slack for the medicare trust fund.

ARE POL GOING SJWS ?

>>133855937
>You introduce another pre-tax
and another, and another, and another. Been there, done that. We now have an economy that is way more 'planned'/government controlled than what the official full-blown communist countries ever managed. More than 85% of our GNP is de-facto controlled by the government simply by adding another tax again and again, decade after decade.

>>133855640
>You don't pay off an assets...
If they become worthless, you do. They have spent a fortune on a healthcare insurance company that is worthless. They need to pay off their buildings and employees and shut it down.

They can't sell it.

>No. It's just one aspect of the insurance market. It's not going to end any real noticeable amount of investment.
Massive impact because of the already existing problems in the economy. They can print money, hand it to rich people and keep the prices stable a little longer, but everyone will just become a little more poor as a result.

>Which make money by selling goods and services.
Money doesn't make an economy. Goods and services do. You can trade goods for services. You can trade goods for goods, you can trade services for services.
Giving people money isn't going to give people more goods and services. If the supply of goods and services is bad, then it will remain bad even when there is more money.

The economic problems in the US are related to access to goods and services, not wealth distribution.

>Maybe not, but efficiency by reducing waste is a good thing.
It doesn't decrease waste, it creates more Government bureaucracy. You are just taking wealth from a business and letting the Government spend it all, quickly.

>Why? They are literally making money from those investments.
Because they no longer exist. They will sell their investments, kill the stock market and close their doors. They will not convert into investment firms.

>I'm saying UHC is more efficient than private healthcare so you can lower the amount people pay and get the same service by changing the structure.
And I'm saying that implementing a UHC system into a economy already established for a private system will kill off billions in wealth, cause massive bureaucratic backlogs and chaos, and create a massive unrepairable mess that will cost tax payers trillions trying to sort it out, while investors start fleeing Healthcare

>>133855848
I'm pretty sure there was at least one teacher strike every year or two while I was in high school. Even the janitors went on strike.
Late in high school, teachers refused to do extra curricular activities, all sports teams were basically cancelled.

School was more of a glorified day care, like I said, where I learned practically nothing. School is even worse now, with politically correctness and "can't fail anyone" attitudes. Being in a school and getting a worthwhile education are not the same.

>>133843497
Same place free basic defensive care (military) and property care (police) come from.

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>>133843497
giv anime gf pls